Offline means unavailable? What a country!

Posted by speddie23@reddit | talesfromtechsupport | View on Reddit | 113 comments

Over Microsoft Teams:

Other department's team leader: "[vendor] has advised they need to update [application] and has asked us to take a full backup of the server"

Me: "All good, I can take a full backup, but this will mean taking the server and hence [application] offline for up to an hour or so. Let's arrange this for after hours"

Other department's team leader: "No, [vendor] will charge us heavily for after hours. Can we do it at 2pm tomorrow?"

Me: "Sure. I've scheduled it in"

Other department's team leader: "Thanks"

The next day

1:30pm - Me: "Hello, just a reminder I am shutting down [server] to take a backup of [application] at 2pm so [vendor] can update it. Please ensure you are out [application] by this time"

(Radio silence)

1:55pm - Me: "Hello, just a reminder I am shutting down [server] to take a backup of [application] at 2pm so [vendor] can update it. Please ensure you are out [application] by this time"

(Radio silence)

2:00pm - I shutdown the server, and start taking a full backup

2:01pm - Other department's team leader: "Hello, [application] is not working. Please look at this urgently as we cannot work."

Me: "Ahh, as you requested yesterday, I've taken it offline so I can back it up."

Other department's team leader: "Why didn't you tell me. If you told me this I could plan accordingly"

Me: (doubting myself if I made that clear) "hmm 1 sec"

Me: (screenshot of yesterday's conversation, specifically around the 'this will mean taking the server and hence [application] offline for up to an hour or so.' part)

Other department's team leader: "I'm not good with computers. I didn't know that offline means that [application] would stop working."

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ThunderDwn@reddit

Other department's team leader: "I'm not good with computers. I didn't know that offline means that [application] would stop working."

Well there's your problem!

You forgot the pictures drawn in crayon.

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peterdeg@reddit

I used to work in a role where the concepts for network connections had to be approved before any real design work could begin.

One of the diagrams was literally drawn in crayon by the network person's young daughter.

It was approved.

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workyworkaccount@reddit

I used to challenge myself to draw the ugliest diagrams I could in Paint to send to problem customers.

Freehanding lines and text in Paint with a mouse is a skill I tell you.

One that I do not have,

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syntaxerror53@reddit

"I'm no good at Art, but I can paint a masterpiece"

Next time someone says they're no good with computers.

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ThunderDwn@reddit

That's..... either genius.... Or insane.

I don't know which.

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Izon_Weston@reddit

Well how else is she going to get a job after college with 15+ years of experience in designing network configurations?

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AutomaticCar4700@reddit

That is brilliant. I hope she puts it on her CV.

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Screwed_38@reddit

I don't have the crayons or the patience

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GielM@reddit

Mine says "Neither the time nor the crayons..." but that's pretty similar.

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tgrantt@reddit

I prefer yours! "Neither, nor" Excellent

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blind_ninja_guy@reddit

Per the job requirements, which list basic computer skills, you have been terminated. Ummmmmm. but that's never how it works.

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lokis_construction@reddit

Then they would change it with Sharpies to be what they wanted to see.

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Big-Membership-1758@reddit

Whenever I hear that “I didn’t know what that means” my reply is, “then why didn’t you ask so you could understand the consequences of your decision. Isn’t that your job?”

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John_Tacos@reddit

Forward to HR and request a review of their qualifications

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z0phi3l@reddit

I see that asa a BS copout by that person, may even call them out, depending on my mood

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Dustquake@reddit

Wait til they hear that "update" also means [application] will be offline.

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GermanBlackbot@reddit

"I did not know what that word meant and didn't ask. That's your fault somehow."

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speddie23@reddit (OP)

Even if you didn't understand what that meant, shouldn't proposing to do it after hours at least hint that there is a reason why it needs to be done after hours?

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

But that costs more, just do it in work hours without taking it offline!

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remoterelay@reddit

This is management level stuff right here.
You've got to be C-suite already and seemingly heading up.

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Unfortunately its heading that way it seems, already been a consultant now I am being offered technical manager positions. I could not care less and don't care about other peoples work environment. So it probably fits quite well.

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spin81@reddit

Uh it can be offline dummy, that word doesn't mean anything. Just make sure the knuckleheads in IT make so we can still work

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Saint_Dogbert@reddit

Sure, just approve this budget increase to have a rundant server to fail over to during this outage. oh wait you view IT as a cost center and not a revenue generator.......

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spin81@reddit

I don't get it. the utilities bill is never questioned as an expense. The people who clean the toilets aren't questioned as an expense. But IT: whaT do i Pay You PeoPLe FOR

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

Does baffle me, people obviously get offline when their phone has no signal but otherwise its a blank spot in their brain.

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emax4@reddit

If that person can't afford a minute to Google something, they shouldn't be working at that high of a level.

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

Well yeh i had to explain to someone on 5x my pay how to open an email attachment. Sharepoint was all they knew.

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Espumma@reddit

They're very used to living with rules that makes no sense to them (because very little actually does), so this didn't raise any flags. And if they did, introspection probably also isn't their strong suit.

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GermanBlackbot@reddit

No, that's clearly just an attempt by IT to gather more unjustified overtime hours.

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speddie23@reddit (OP)

Close. I have a kickback scheme with the vendor.

I mention that the work can only be performed after hours, vendor charges after hours rates.

I get a percentage of the profit from the vendor.

Everybody wins

/s in case it's really needed

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Moneia@reddit

Obviously you're trying to pad the bill

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The_Truthkeeper@reddit

Other department's team leader: "I'm not good with computers.

Your admission that you lied about your qualifications for this job that requires being good with computers has been forwarded to both your boss and HR. Have a pleasant day.

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YesImStillanAtheist@reddit

"I'm not good with computers." This is just a form of weaponized incompetence. It's used to minimize and their responsibility. We're supposed to be like "Oh, well then that makes it my fault." Classic deflection.

Often when I have heard this excuse, it gets overheard by others who seek validation for being "not good with computers" and they chime in "Me either! I get so confused!" etc.

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

I wish this was a thing. I had to explain to someone about 8 levels above me how to open an email attachment. Then how to reattach it once they'd signed it (no docusign).

How the hell they got that job without being able to use email I have no idea. Especially as they had it for several years at that point.

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The_Truthkeeper@reddit

Unfortunately, we're going to see a lot more of this in the future as the smartphone/iPad generation continues entering the workforce.

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

This person was 40!

I started the youngest out on a rasp pi 4+ downstairs after the padded amazon tablet. He's now gone through windows 10 and 11. Plus iPad for school and an android phone. No way he wasn't having mouse or keyboard skills. Infact he's taken it upon himself to do typing speed tests and at now 13 last month has been making things on scratch for over 2 years and looking for a new challenge/language to expand. This just happens to be on his iPad so it's convenient and beyond my ability to suggest a progression.

Think software dev would work amazingly for him despite it being not a great recommended route currently in general. Because he does this in his own time, actively reaearches and improves and is self driven. I'm no coder, but can follow his logic from a lot of excel stuff, there's a hell of a lot of it tho and he's constantly tweaking it.

Tho he is mostly making games and stuff so who knows if the interest remains if that's not it. There is actually an indie developer nearby that takes on apprentices but who knows in a few years time on both sides.

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MikeSchwab63@reddit

https://www.prince-webdesign.nl/index.php/software/mvs-3-8j-turnkey-5 IBM Mainframe (S370-z16) Emulator, MVS operating system from 1986, some user written programs to replace some paid products. Needs 3270 Emulator like x3270 / c3270 / Tom Brennan Vista.

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CreideikiVAX@reddit

As a classic computer hobbyist who enjoys mainframe systems and minicomputers mostly (behold my biases).

Much as TK5 is fun, throwing a person at a model of computing that was just transitioning away from the punch card model (but still super heavily in the batch processing model) is a great idea… to make them never want to touch programming again.

Similarly, as a C programmer, much as it's my go to language (ha, ha; but also again showing my biases): I'd not put a starting dev into the deep end of C.

Also Vista tn3270 is the best 3270 emulator I have used.

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MikeSchwab63@reddit

How about introduction to the new mainframe. https://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg246366.html

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CreideikiVAX@reddit

z/OS is, at its core, a descendant of MVS (which is a descendant of OS/360 — yes, the one which inspired "The Mythical Man-Month" and the perennially gnored revelations about development contsined in that book).

Yes, z/OS has modern languages — or modern versions of old languages — but the computibg model is still the same aa MVS. And that model is not friendly to beginners.

Unless you specifically want the person learning the arcane arts of COBOL and CICS.

Really the best option is starting a budding dev on Python running on a pleasantly user friendly Linux (bias time again: Debian pretty much embodies the old Apple ad motto of "It Just Works").

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

What would be a good language for him to start after scratch?

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CreideikiVAX@reddit

Python and Lua are quite friendly languages. The former has libraries to do pretty much anything, the latter by itself isn't too exciting, but if the kiddo enjoys Minecraft, the various computer mods (if they've been updated to modern Minecraft, I still play the very agèd 1.12.2) are almost invariably progammed (in game) with Lua.

If you want to get them a start on electronics, you could go for Python on a RasPi. The feedback of affecting something tangible may prove a better incentive than "ooh look, I made a dialog box show up on screen."

VB.net is also sonewhat friendly for beginners — I myself started by being taught VB6 back in high school — but I would strongly recommend against VB, as you can develop a lot of bad habits with VB, that will be a chore to unlearn later on.

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

Yeh my main exposure to coding was basic and then turbo pascal, so a little out of date for now. Then bits of excel vba etc. Command line for dos and linux (not well practiced on that one). He seems to be mostly obsessed with geometry dash currently (has a custom tap pad thing, plus mech keyboard after he liked the brown switches on mine lol), tho has made a bunch of platformers and side scrollers similar to it.

Went and asked him and apparently they are picking up Python at school now which is amazing since it seemed to sound like a good option anyway. Good idea on the rasp pi I Have a spare 4 model B sitting about I was going to use as a pihole but didn't get round to it. Plus we have been making things like (mechano style) kit motorbikes and a wooden laser cut clock so something should spring to mind.

May even be useful for me to learn for my work so being able to learn it with my kid would be far better lol, plus he will be actually taught and explaining things seems to be the best way to learn them. My dad and his mate did opposite classes for one qualification back 30 years ago and taught each other and did it in half the time. Mum went to uni a year early in the 70s and was working with punch cards, dad made his own teletext based lottery identification of results programme and a basic UI for DOS for his games etc.

I just did not get on with coding for nothing but now it would complement a lot of my current skills quite nicely, if we can build some robot to use out NERF collection to to auto fire (they may have been extensively modified) at a target or similar then why not.....

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Ballbag94@reddit

Do kids not learn this stuff in school anymore? Like, it wasn't exactly new tech when I was in school in 2005-2010 but we still learned how to send emails and such

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spaceforcerecruit@reddit

Yes. Kids these days know how to send email.

It’s stuff like file systems or terms like “start button” that are likely to throw them because many have never interacted with a desktop environment.

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kindall@reddit

Microsoft shot themselves in the for by removing the word "Start" from the Start menu

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teh_maxh@reddit

It's been removed for longer than it was present.

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vaildin@reddit

No, they shot those of us in IT in the foot.

Probably didn't hurt them much at all.

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spencerb292@reddit

It was taught in elementary school, but after that it was an optional elective

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robsterva@reddit

Not really. They get Chromebooks or tablets at school and most never see a full desktop OS until college (if even then).

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Gabelvampir@reddit

Uhh that will be fun, scanning a tablet to forward a mail.

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Suppafly@reddit

Unfortunately, we're going to see a lot more of this in the future as the smartphone/iPad generation continues entering the workforce.

I doubt it. I think we'll see the same amount or a smaller amount. The prevalence of smartphones and tablets doesn't mean that we'll have less of the computer inclined people than we had when there were even less computers overall.

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Ultrarandom@reddit

I work at an MSP and we have 1 client whose receptionist will print out a PDF, e-mail, whatever, scan it to e-mail, then send us that PDF from the scan whenever they want to forward us something. It is infuriating.

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Rainthistle@reddit

Man, I feel you. I had a boss who would do this. I wish there was a stronger word than infuriating.

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cvx_mbs@reddit

a stronger word than infuriating

rage inducing?

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lildobe@reddit

"Incensing" or "Vexing"

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SnooRegrets8068@reddit

Sadly I'd actually be happy with that if it was correct. My problem is half the time it's just plain wrong.

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Aaod@reddit

Nothing like dealing with someone that makes two or three times more money than you that can barely do their job in general even without being bad with basic technology. I also knew one person who retired from a cushy union job paying well over 140k a year where they had insane seniority instead of learning a different program than what they were used to. Imagine retiring years early because you don't want to spend a month learning a new program to do your job.

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Shurikane@reddit

I work with people who are frequently tech-illiterate, yet have to use a computer workstation all day long as part of their regular duties.

One day I asked one of the hiring managers why we'd hired these people when it's a job job that uses tech day in and day out.

The hiring manager replied as follows:

"The other applicants were even worse."

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ben_sphynx@reddit

Sorry, "take it offline" now means: "don't talk about it in this meeting".

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BipedSnowman@reddit

Why is someone who is "not good at computers" a manager involved in software updates?

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speddie23@reddit (OP)

That team deals with the vendor directly for almost everything, as the vendor manages basically everything.

We just provide the infrastructure and operating system for their software to run on.

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whatmustido@reddit

Sounds like you should get rid of the team and have the vendor send you a contractor that does the job for them.

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Moneia@reddit

Because Managers don't get their hands dirty with computers and all that other nerdy stuff when there's some sort of IT team to do all the dirty work

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lildobe@reddit

What's really infuriating is when the boss USED to be an engineer, but got promoted, and over the next 15-20 years completely forgot everything he learned. And I'm not talking about a field where there are constant advances and new technologies. I'm talking basic optomechanical engineering. A field that (other than the materials science end of things) hasn't changed much in 50 years.

That's describing the president of my former employer.

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Moneia@reddit

Ooof, yeah that sucks. Being slowly brainwashed by corporate culture must be soul wrenching to watch.

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RedsVikingsFan@reddit

Because they’re “good with people”

(scene)

“So you physically take the specs from the vendor and hand them to the engineers?”

“No, my secretary does that. But I have PEOPLE SKILLS”

(End scene)

🙄

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speddie23@reddit (OP)

I have people skills. I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

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xFayeFaye@reddit

Dealing with Layer 8 issues =/= people skills :D

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Saint_Dogbert@reddit

Its JUMP to conclusions!

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spin81@reddit

Well they probably aren't.

A scenario I can imagine where this sort of thing would happen is if it's, say, an application that tracks inventory, and the team leader is in charge of purchasing or warehousing or guys who are driving forklifts or something.

All of this is not in defense of the team lead, btw. You can be not-good with computers and still have common sense. Just musing on how I do see how someone who is not good with computers might end up in a pickle like this.

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Hri7566@reddit

i work in shipping and i had to turn on a licensed doctor's computer for them

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Zylly103@reddit

I know when downtime notices get sent out in my org, they definitely include language to the effect of "Will be offline for updates and unavailable during that time"

I see now why that level of precision is needed.

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Ricama@reddit

"I am physically incapable of admitting fault."

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billthecat20@reddit

I started using words like unusable, unreachable but no matter how clear you are some folks don't read your message.

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nwgat@reddit

🤦🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️

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AdreKiseque@reddit

How did he explain the radio silence on the warnings?

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laz10@reddit

He's not good with reading

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Saint_Dogbert@reddit

"just another useless email from IT"

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speddie23@reddit (OP)

shrug.jpg

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JakeGrey@reddit

Point of clarification: Does this application do something that someone might reasonably expect to still work while the server was offline?

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6890@reddit

Point of Pedantry: Nobody goes out of their way to get explicit approval and agreement on the schedule for something that would not have user impact.

If you're unsure about the extent of that impact then you gotta speak up before agreeing to it.

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K1yco@reddit

"I'm not good with computers. I didn't know that offline means that [application] would stop working."

Maybe it might be because I worked in a food processing plant for a few years, but OFFLINE isn't even a computer specific term.

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vaildin@reddit

They're not good with computers, but think they deserve an opinion in how updates get done.

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sambt5@reddit

My 75 yr old grandparents know what offline means. I don't understand how I still things like this in my queue.

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fresh-dork@reddit

Other department's team leader: "I'm not good with computers. I didn't know that offline means that [application] would stop working."

referred for training

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androshalforc1@reddit

I’m not certain on the details since this happened to a friend of mine, he was doing IT for a major telecom at the time, and had to take an application down for an update. Being thoughtful he called up the main department this would effect.

They asked him to wait a moment, put him on hold and came back a few minutes later, sorry you can’t do that right now. He laughed and said. you misunderstand me, Im not asking for permission. I’m giving you a heads up. And your time is up.

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