They always forget about IT.
Posted by Chance_Skin_2854@reddit | talesfromtechsupport | View on Reddit | 87 comments
Some years back, it was decided that our analogue phone system would be replaced.
Once this decision was made and everything signed, we in IT were notified of this change.
In that order. Yes.
My boss naturally let his many and well qualified thoughts be known, but as is common here these were dismissed. For those familiar with OFSTED, our overall rating was "Good", while their rating for Senior Management was "Needs Improvement". For those not familiar a government agency rated us as 3/4 stars overall and 2/4 stars for management (4/4 being Outstanding and 1/4 being Inadequate).
The person responsible for this was neither IT or senior management, I don't recall her role exactly now but she was the villain of many of my stories. How her proposal got accepted without our input or even knowledge would be mysterious and a cause for great concern anywhere else, but what can I say any more eloquently or succinctly that OFSTED have not?
So we meet with the supplier. Our questions are asked, and some are answered. One in particular was compatibility with ethernet daisy chaining computers with our existing setup - VLAN'd, solid and secure as it was. "Yes yes yes, all that will work". One of the techs in particular had an attitude that I could describe as "needs improvement" and customer service skills that were "inadequate". I had the strong feeling from him that he was in his very early 20s, possibly this was his first techy job, and was absolutely blindly loyal to the company having known little else in his career. His response to many of our concerns could essentially be translated to "No. Our product is good. Our product is beautiful. Our product is right, and you are wrong to question it".
I sat in on one training session. There was one member of staff in HR who I had a good relationship with and had been very kind and supportive to me over the years when I needed it, and she was always very appreciative when it was my turn to support her technical issues. We respected each other and were humble to each other's expertise, I had a soft spot for her and was always available to her - a few occasions in the fire together trying to get the monthly payroll processed with a third party on time will forge strong bonds. She was very excited and asked a very interesting, pertinent question about a certain feature. Mr Inadequate got Right. In. Her. Face. and hissed "NO! It doesn't do that!". She was absolutely crushed and I was incensed.
Do our desktops PXE boot through the phones? Do they balls. All staff are now without both their computer AND desk phone whenever we need to reimage. Mr Inadequate's response is of course to blame our network. I'm neither surprised or bothered by this, who amongst us, hey? Evasion and misdirection of blame between IT and a supplier? Bread and butter work, all the live long day. I'm not angry at Mr Inadequate for this, I'm deeply disturbed. He's not making excuses. He BELIEVES. He's of absolute faith in the infallibility of The Product. It's actually a little frightening to see the zealotry a young man can display for reselling a third rate IP telephony system.
My boss does all he can to mitigate the nightmares, there are delays and pushback from us and the general staff. Complaints roll in, we redirect everyone moaning to us in the Villain's direction and make it clear who is liaising (responsible) for all queries related to the new phone system. As we weren't consulted there is nothing we can do, there's no technical requirement to hold them to or UAT for them to complete. There's barely a week of snagging support, then we're shunted to their helpdesk for standard assistance.
The only happy ending to any of this was when the Villain who had unleashed all of this on us made a very genuine, very sincere, and very out of character apology to us.
ascii4ever@reddit
Tis a twice told tale . . .
drewman77@reddit
This goes both ways. IT decided to turn off all mass storage capable USB ports without finding out if there were valid business needs.
I work in our video production department. One day all of our ingest systems and external SSDs just stopped working. It took us most of the day to figure out what happened and get our access back. Very grudgingly I might add.
I know someone is going to say that they are sure we ignored warning after warning. I have an apology email from the VP of IT that says otherwise.
They honestly thought we could edit 4k+ video on our machines from their new cloud file service provider. How we were going to get the files onto that cloud from the cards from our cameras never occurred to them either.
I still have to certify every 6 months that our department needs the USB exception. I grit my teeth and copy and paste our explanation from the last exception certification. Then type in that it will be this way for the foreseeable future. It doesn't change the 6 month temporary exception email I get back a week or two later.
ItsNovaaHD@reddit
Not a “this goes both ways”. This is a procurement, and security issue.
Blocking external USB media is very standard security practice & the fact you’re being granted unlimited extensions tells me it’s not really about security.
This should’ve been fixed by supplying anyone who falls under video production with computers with high capacity / quality INTERNAL drives. Compared to years prior, SATA SSD & even M.2 drives are DIRT cheap.
To be frank, you should’ve been told before the put the “lockdown” in place; but you should’ve also been told that new device procurement is in place and this is why.
drewman77@reddit
Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your idea of scope sounds a lot like the IT people here.
We just took delivery of our 2nd 200TB server. We already have over 500TB online.
It should have been discussed with us. Period. A perfect security model doesn't exist where people actually have to do things.
ItsNovaaHD@reddit
Patronizing isn’t cute friend, I’m sorry your technical infrastructure isn’t sufficient to account for what you stated - but people (and companies) exist that DO in fact take this seriously & properly scope projects.
Get off your high horse.
drewman77@reddit
Look, it's ok you didn't understand the scope. I didn't give it. It's also still very clear your don't understand it yet.
iT infrastructure should be setup to efficiently and safely serve its customers. There are office people who disregard all policy and cause real security, support and stability issues. There are people who are following every stated policy but who are affected by unstated, opaque, and wrong policies put in place by IT.
There are stories for both. Your automatic dismissal of my side says a lot more about the height of your horse than mine.
I hope you take some time to think on this.
P.S. our infrastructure works great and has had close to zero issues for over 8 years now
ItsNovaaHD@reddit
I intend to take zero time to think on this shallow Reddit interaction, friend. We are simply in two different realities when it comes to understanding how infrastructure SHOULD work, which is okay.
I’m glad it’s working for you, how yours is setup :~)
drewman77@reddit
I'm glad you took the time to respond. It shows some thought already.
It's a big realization that no one true or perfect reality exists.
FireLucid@reddit
This is the such a wild hill for someone to die on, I commend you for managing to stay civil!
ItsNovaaHD@reddit
That, we agree on friend.
BobbieMcFee@reddit
How does the data get from the little memory cards in their cameras into the INTERNAL (apparently it needs capitalising?) drives?
This isn't about where the data goes to, but about where it comes from.
Sea_Weakness_Pi@reddit
Sometimes it feels like I am a lone voice saying "have you spoken to IT about that?" when someone says they want to buy something that has anything to do with ICT. "What's that you say? You thought you could just buy 5 Chromebooks from Amazon? No, you need to speak to IT first"
mattjimf@reddit
My work, IT, went through 7 months of procurement hell to get a new ticketing system. Marketing email my boss:
M: Can you install this software for us?
B: Where did that come from?
M: We bought it.
B: Did you go through procurement?
M:No, we bought it from our budget using the credit card.
B:We don't know it's compatible with our systems, if it needs any special permissions or what the support is. If it breaks we can't support it!
M: Ok, but can you just install it?
Sea_Weakness_Pi@reddit
I think marketing needs to have their credit card limit reduced to peanuts for their own good.
FireLucid@reddit
We had someone in marketing that was familiar with IT. He shut down the most insane requests before they made it to us.
One was "Every student takes a photo once a day and when they graduate we can give them a video of them growing up over the years".
Rathmun@reddit
No, and every ticket you file will have uninstalling it as the first step. We haven't checked whether it's compatible with our current systems, and we're not going to. Therefore it's an unknown variable that will be eliminated first whenever there's a problem. Just in case the software we haven't vetted is the cause.
PrinzII@reddit
facepalm
Lv_InSaNe_vL@reddit
I had that happen at my last place I worked for. Came in one day to 25 of the crappiest Chromebooks they could buy. Like the kind where they are fun colored plastic.
Explaining to them how none of our security tools, managment tools, remote access, 3/4 of the software end users use, and how im just flat out not gonna allow them on the network was really fun.
"Oh but we spent so much money on these...."
Damn sucks maybe you could have asked your computer guy before buying computers, but what do i know, im just a computer guy
SysAdmin907@reddit
They always forget IT- YES. THEY. DO.
New Building- plans already set in stone (no changes). The organization FINALLY hands us the plans. The server room? Size of a broom closet, no AC, one 15amp outlet.
FireLucid@reddit
My boss came across building plans while talking to someone in our org. Asked them if they wanted wifi in that new building. They had not even considered a network closet.
SeanBZA@reddit
And you have to share it with 4 mop buckets, 8 mops, 5 bottles of ammoniated stripper, and 5 bottles of floor wax as well. Plus 11 brooms, and 8 wet floor signs as well.
SysAdmin907@reddit
That was par for the course in other buildings. Phone switch over the janitors sink, IT rack just high enough to put the brooms under it.
jamoche_2@reddit
Historical building, gutted and remodeled, software engineers move into their new offices and discover that if you have more than one computer and monitor per person, you're overloading the system. No problem! they say. Just use the server room when you need to use more, it's got lots of power. And how often should you even need to do that?
While the server room was nice and large (and cold), the problem was that our team did cross-platform development and multi-monitor support. The typical number of computers and monitors per person was around five. Since I didn't work in that office, people competed to be my "office mate" since they'd be able to use my space for their overflow.
dustojnikhummer@reddit
We are only a thinking about moving buildings (that shit ain't cheap and neither is rent) and from the beginning I tried to be a bit engaged in that convo for this reason. Enough space for current + growth, no clutter, connectivity, climate control etc.
Lot of tech debt can be cleaned up when moving buildings but your team has to be involved from the start. But alas, the higher ups almost always consider IT departments as just a money sink, yet try shutting down your infra for one work day.
StitchOni@reddit
What happened!
Equivalent-Salary357@reddit
Perhaps 20 years ago, our school system's Superintendent of Schools went to a conference where he saw a presentation for a record keeping system that included a web-based gradebook that, among other things, would remove control of grading period grades from the teachers and put it in the hands of the principals. So he signed a contract.
The first we teachers learned about it was the day before students arrived. Instead of preparing rooms, finalizing lesson plans and what not, we were busy trying to figure out how to take attendance, enter grades, etc. The first few days were chaotic, to say the least. Most teachers were minimally competent with computers, and the interface wasn't user friendly.
With no user guide, I started makeing notes and screenshots, sharing them with the other teachers in the HS. After a while, I learned that these were in use in the Junior High and Elementary. Teachers sharing with each other.
About half-way into the six-week grading period, I went to the IT person who had this dropped into his lap. I told him I couldn't figure out how to do six-week grades.
The next day he sent me an email letting me know he couldn't figure it out either, and had put in a 'ticket'. He expected an answer soon, and would let me know. A day later his email arrived. The reason I couldn't figure out how to do six-week grades was simple.
That module hadn't been coded yet.
Responsible-End7361@reddit
No problem, just send a note home to all the parents saying you can't give your kids grades due to the new computer system. I am sure they won't mind and will laud the new system.
worstpartyever@reddit
Include the superintendent's home phone number in that note.
SeanBZA@reddit
Plus his address, so they can go at a time convenient for them( 2AM probably) and tell him that he needs to fix it right then.
Rathmun@reddit
Publish that note in the local paper, home phone included, with the addendum that the superintendant spent their tax dollars on this.
itijara@reddit
My wife is a teacher and administrator at a private school. She was at a conference where a vendor was trying to sell a slick new system for creating aptitude tests for students which tracks their progress over time. It sounded good as she had been a teacher and getting good sets of new questions and grading these types of exams was very time consuming for teachers. She asked to see some example questions and the sales person seemed surprised by the request. He showed her some questions, which she immediately noticed had both grammar mistakes as well as content errors that meant they were unanswerable. Apparently the questions are AI generated (something the saleperson said with pride) and were not screened by humans. Apparently there are several hundred schools using this product.
syh7@reddit
Why does everything need to contain AI nowadays. When will people learn ot sucks balls and is only good enough to point you in a direction of an answer, not give you one.
Razbith@reddit
I find it ironic that we were all told Wikipedia is not a valid source and should never be referenced but some of the same people are taking A.I. hallucinations as completely trustworthy. I know which one I trust more.
ben_sphynx@reddit
Clearly we need an AI to edit wikipedia pages now...
theoldman-1313@reddit
AI is the current marketing buzzword, rapidly overtaking organic for first place. This is going to start a marketing war I expect to see AI broccoli and organic TVs in the near future.
meitemark@reddit
OLED = Organic LED
theoldman-1313@reddit
Yep, but I'm still waiting on the AI beoccoli
Stryker_One@reddit
Like this?
theoldman-1313@reddit
We're there!!
MinchinWeb@reddit
'AI is not good enough to do your job, but it is good enough for your boss to fire you.'
worstpartyever@reddit
Why? to cut human manpower, of course.
jdege@reddit
AI is fascinating concept, but Large Language Models aren't AI, they're word complete.
meitemark@reddit
Worse than that: LLM is word guessers. Worst case scenario for a LLM is that it does not have an answer, and then it just.. guesstimates what the answer is.
LLM is not AI.
jdege@reddit
Does nobody remember ELIZA?
LLMs aren't really any different.
Golden_Apple_23@reddit
And why do you feel that way?
(oh yes, I remember ELIZA)
newfor2023@reddit
And look how bad autocorrect is.
oridginal@reddit
This. I'm in an engineering profession and the only thing I'd trust "AI" for is to take a brain dump and translate it into a coherent paragraph (which I then use as a backbone of what I actually send). To trust it for anything else in my profession is absurd and in my opinion dangerous
Zach_luc_Picard@reddit
I've used it in coding to get basic protocode that I can then transform into something usable, usually when I'm looking at a problem and think "I have no clue how I should do X".
S7rike@reddit
As IT in education, superintendents have to be the easiest mark for any salesman. There's a reason salesman actively avoid our department and try to talk to the super first.
This has held true for me at least for the last three administrations.
DrHugh@reddit
This reminds me of when our corporation decided to get a new phone system to replace the one used by helplines in our IT division, world-wide. There was a project lead for this global effort, and in the presentation, she had a slide talking about how great $newSystem would be for us, and listed all the benefits, including that it was "Rated as a 4".
So, after she was done, I asked the obvious question. "Four out of what?" Since it makes a difference if it was out of four, out of five, or out of ten. Turned out to be five was the max. But I had to wonder what they were trying to pull with that sort of thing.
That paled in comparison to the next phone system, which was related to a $popularCloudCompany. The $newCloudPhone project was also world-wide, but I found out about it when one of the guys on the team realized he hadn't heard anything from me. (We used to work in the same group, and he was a key person I worked with in the earlier phone system rollout.) How this project managed to miss my group of about a dozen agents is a mystery to me, but we only missed the first month of the project; we still had a month to learn how to use it, give our configuration stuff, and prepare for the cutover!
We were lucky. There were groups that didn't find out this was happening until the week before go-live.
Since this was after a number of people had been laid off or encouraged to retire early, my suspicion was that someone who knew how to deal with the old system was let go. Upper management being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
AcmeCartoonVillian@reddit
it has a safety factor of seven!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Bullet
HayabusaJack@reddit
Ours was cloud computing. The team was managing around 1,000 on-prem virtual machines when engineering approached us and said they were deploying to Azure and we needed to be ready to support it.
We pushed back. We’re fine with supporting it but we need training. No one on the team has any cloud training. “Sorry, that’s your problem.” Well we only had $500 a year per person for training and team building and management declined.
So engineering, who had of course learned all about Azure, were required to support the product. As far as I know, even 3 or 4 years later, no one has authorized cloud training. The team went from 8 admins to 3 admins (one in the Philippines) but the number of servers went from 160 physical servers to 1,200 physical and virtual servers.
wellimjusthere@reddit
Holy cow that bill alone
Nevermind04@reddit
I worked for a corporation like this and any time IT was given a directive without asking for any input, we offered the offending committee an "amended" budget 5x higher than their "finalized" budget, an ETA months or sometimes years longer than theirs, or asked them which critical IT functions should be suspended to accommodate their budget and timeline. My boss had a 100% success rate at getting IT committee projects canceled.
JOSmith99@reddit
"We now present our second kind of non-proposal...The high-cost, high-staff kind: 20,000 staff, billion a year budget!"
DeciduousEmu@reddit
Many years ago, I was with a company that was part of BIG CORPORATION. There had been multiple tech project stuff ups over the last several years that cost Big Corp big money. Most of these stuff ups were due to directors and VPs making deals for systems/software without even consulting local IT. Big Corp came out with the announcement that no tech related projects could even be initiated without getting approval through the Big Corp's new IT project/procurement process. This was a huge culture shock and some people didn't take it seriously.
Shortly after the aforementioned announcement, marketing thought they could get away with bringing on board a tablet based product configurator app. The app was 100% stand alone with no connections to our business systems. They also paid for it out of their budget. So, IT didn't know about it until we started getting calls about technical issues from the sales force.
I went to our VP and asked how we should handle it. He told me to send everyone to the marketing guy who led the project. He even told me to send an email to all of marketing, sales, and IT instructing everyone to go to marketing guy. He even had me explicitly state, in the email, that IT did not support this app.
I think that incident drove home to everyone that trying to go around the recently introduced corporate IT policies would not end well for them.
Play stupid games, win getting no support from IT.
KarlBarx2@reddit
How did the marketing guy project lead react?
DeciduousEmu@reddit
Not much he could do but shut up and take it. My VP had no fear about pissing people off when he believed he was right. He had also waited until after the bi-weekly senior staff meeting. He must have told the marketing and sales VPs that we were not going to be supporting this app and they better get used to the new way of doing business.
I did notice that marketing guy would glare at me whenever I passed him in the hallway after that email.
Ich_mag_Kartoffeln@reddit
I'm sure that look warmed your cold tech support heart for many years.
PyonPyonCal@reddit
It's only cold from being ignored.
Ich_mag_Kartoffeln@reddit
Being ignored is part of the job.
DeciduousEmu@reddit
Not much he could do but shut up and take it. My VP had no fear about pissing people off when he believed he was right. He had also waited until after the bi-weekly senior staff meeting. He must have told the marketing and sales VPs that we were not going to be supporting this app and they better get used to the new way of doing business.
I did notice that marketing guy would glare at me whenever I passed him in the hallway after that email.
mattmann72@reddit
I have a government client that does that. If the system is not vetted by and installed by IT; then it is not connected to or supported by IT. It has caused waves a few times, but is the right course of action. No one can bully the IT director either. She stands her ground.
CaptainZippi@reddit
We had a department ask us to install a new bit of software which was “Business Critical” but turned out to be not particularly new and have a lot of references to Windows NT dependencies.
When we mentioned this and asked why they didn’t ask us about the package before buying it, they said:
“You always tell us why we shouldn’t buy what we want to buy”
Gotta admit - that one left me speechless.
Quantum_Quokkas@reddit
Haha I’d only expect a child to say this
Wadsworth_McStumpy@reddit
Some time ago, in addition to my normal duties, I was IT for our company. One day, the lead salesman and another guy I vaguely recognized as a salesman came into my office.
"Hey, Bob here got one of the new laptops today. Can you install on it?"
"Sure, let me look at it. Um, no. This is a Chromebook. runs on Windows."
Bob looks at sales lead. "How many of these did order?"
"Crap. We'll be back."
A week later, they came back with a new laptop. The Chromebooks were given away to some of our good customers and written off under "Sales Promotion."
rob-entre@reddit
I was working with a new medical client. Their CEO asked about chromebooks because all their apps were “in the cloud.” Of course I discussed how their cloud apps had requirements that needed a full OS, but my reasoning fell on deaf ears. I finally suggested for her to order a single Chromebook to test and see how well it would work for her nursing staff. She ordered 10. As expected, the nurses could chart and run most of their functions but couldn’t print or scan, two very frequent tasks.
There are currently two Chromebooks still available for emergency use. They’re avoided like the plague. I’m honestly not sure what happened to the other 8.
agravain@reddit
duh...phones are phones, not computer thingys.
zaro3785@reddit
Which is a first, because everything that has power/gets plugged in is usually an IT thing
Randalldeflagg@reddit
"My space heater keeps tripping the breaker, why can't IT solve this problem?"
Trinitykill@reddit
Seriously. Had someone stop me in the corridor to tell me that their kettle wasn't working.
A kettle. For boiling water. It wasn't even a 'smart' kettle, or even a work one, but a £15 plug in kettle.
I wasn't sure who was more dumbfounded, me after hearing their complaint, or them after I had to explain that a kettle is not IT equipment.
meitemark@reddit
You can make coffee with hot water and some brownish dust. That should mean it is an IT equipment.
Randalldeflagg@reddit
it is obviously used to install java, so get to it and fix it
Rathmun@reddit
Re-direct the ticket to facilities with a note "User requesting installation of dedicated 20A circuit for personal use." And jack the priority high enough that it lands on an "important person's" desk.
Gadgetman_1@reddit
We had IP Phones, once, too... They came with pass-through functionality... Which didn't really work.
Thank F! we had strict specifications requiring 3 x network sockets in each office.
(The guys creating the guidelines too the minimum required, doubled it and added 1. Simple as that... It was enough most of the time)
The phones were 1140e from a company that should not be named lest it cause PTSD in others...
I threw out a big box of PSU boards for them last year. They tended to die when we power cycled the PoE switch they were connected to.
Projects...
Decades ago, a department had a project converting a system from old LOTUS 123 spreadsheets into something 'modern and Windows based'... What they got was a VB front to a crappy Access DB. That had be placed on a server fileshare because several users needed to reach the data simultaneusly... Yeah... Ouch!
Crashed constantly... Don't know how many times I had to restore the DB.
The worst, though, was our project coordinator. He would actually read through every bug report and sort out those HE thought were important enough to pass onto the developers.
And he also decided which reports should be made or prioritised for development.
NEVER EVER let a manager type decide which reports can be pulled.
The users went back to the old 123 Spreadsheets.
CanConRules@reddit
Nortel: That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
TORMAC meridian LEFT turn
Speak the proper incantations or NT will swap all your TCP/IP for ISDN
meitemark@reddit
I remember ISDN fondly. ISDN was datalines, but they had priority as voice lines, so I had about ~10-20ms latency to the NIX in my country (Norway, Oslo). I have never since that had that low latency. Sure, 1GBit bandwidth, but never less than 50ms. Quake2 online was fun.
TychaBrahe@reddit
To be honest, it's not just IT.
When I was in college I worked part time as an explainer at a museum across the street from our school. They had this big beautiful building with glass entrance doors. I'm not sure if they were trying to prevent people from entering in case of a fire, or if they thought the entranceway doors (which were all glass) would disintegrate in some fashion and allow oxygen to feed the flames. They had taken measures.
I once returned to the front desk from lunch and found a couple of people from Exhibits measuring this structure that jetted out, separating the main level from the entrance foyer.
Me: What's going on? What are you measuring?
D1: We're putting up some signage.
Me: With a big gap in the middle?
D1: No, it's solid.
Me: But it will block the gap.
D2: That's OK. It's not important aesthetically.
Me: It's not about aesthetics. See that? ::Points upward:: That's metal strip is the bottom edge of a solid metal door that slams down along this track at 40 mph if a fire is detected. It's part of our fire suppression system, and the fire marshall would be very upset to walk in here and find that slot blocked. Did you talk to Dr. Harrison about this?
They packed up, and the plan was changed to a freestanding sign that honestly looked awful. It would have looked much better where they had planned to mount it, but that wasn't a possibility.
And no, they had not talked to Dr. Harrison, the curator who oversaw the building, about it.
meitemark@reddit
Well, since the generic public do not read signs, it was a moot point anyway. But it would have been fun to see a fire marshall yelling at them.
davidgrayPhotography@reddit
Not only do they forget about IT, but they blame us for things they forgot to tell us about.
"This system runs like shit, why?"
"What system?"
"This new system!"
"What new system?"
"Package X!"
"Package X?"
"Are you fucking stupid?"
"No, I assume you've gone ahead and bought a new software package without telling IT, and are trying to blame us for something we literally had no say in"
"Oh.. sorry. We'll make sure to include you next time"
Next time:
"This system runs like shit, why?"
"What system?"
"This new system!"
"New system? Do you remember the conversation we had last time about including IT in things?"
"Oh.. sorry. We'll make sure to include you next time"
BassRecorder@reddit
It's always dangerous when people are responsible for something where they only think they have expertise. I guess that person got taught a valuable lesson.
SlantLogoEPU@reddit
Look up Dunning-Krueger
NotYourNanny@reddit
Sometimes, it's a contest between the ones who believe they know more than they do, and the ones who know they know nothing, and can't learn.
The former always win, though. I waste less time doing things they should be doing than fixing things the latter shouldn't be doing.
niobiumnnul@reddit
Always.
Traveling-Techie@reddit
When I was in tech sales we had training in “enterprise sales,” which boiled down to selling to clueless higher-up’s without input from their IT folks.
rockdash@reddit
They also always forget about IT.
glenmarshall@reddit
Acknowledge the apologies, then ask or sufficient budget, staff, and training to provide support. That includes a promise to butt out when the needs for upgrades & replacement arise.