Noctua delays the release of their next-generation 140mm fan
Posted by AZEDKUL@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 244 comments
According to Noctua's roadmap, the release of their 140mm fan has been delayed again, this time to Q3 2024. This most likely means that the release of their upcoming next-generation NH-D15 CPU cooler will also be delayed, since it is supposed to use the next-generation 140mm fan.
https://noctua.at/en/product-roadmap
Meln1kov@reddit
This fan has been delayed, announced, previewed, re delayed, sampled, cancelled and reannounced for 10 years and the end it will be 10% more performant than an arctic p14 max and 500% more expensive. Calling out right now .
Joseph011296@reddit
Oh shit did arctic make an improved p14?
Meln1kov@reddit
Yes and it's really cool
https://hwbusters.com/cooling/arctic-p14-max-140mm-review-the-best-140mm-fan/
Plini9901@reddit
The sound signature is still horrific though.
Joseph011296@reddit
The lack of PST chaining sorta kills it for me, I really appreciate that in my old P14s.
EscapeParticular8743@reddit
I got a 5 pack of the p14max for 43€, so less than 9€ a piece and they’re crazy good.
They feel really hefty and nice quality, they also move so much air that I run then at maximum 40% fan speed (of 3300rpm max) and they basically never hit those speeds.
I liked their fans so much that I bought their AIO and a monitor arm too, which are both great value for their price. Also heard that they have great customer service
I know this reads like an add, but you gotta give credit to companies that get things right.
Milou_Noir@reddit
This has gone from being a joke into the not funny anymore category. A desk fan? Jaysus! Whatever Noctua. They keep on releasing crappy new products that no-one wants and meanwhile one of the core lines for them (a high static pressure 140mm radiator fan) hasn't been updated for a decade? And the release date pushed back dozens of times by years?
lovely_sombrero@reddit
Someone could just copy-paste this here every two quarters.
Exist50@reddit
It's pretty clear they're deliberately lying at this point. That, or fantastically incompetent.
skycake10@reddit
The good faith interpretation is that unlike most companies, they prioritize their reputation and refuse to release a product they aren't happy with. It sucks for people looking forward to the new fans, but they're Noctua: if they can't release a fan that's one of the best in the category, why bother?
Strazdas1@reddit
The good faith intepretation is that they are designing fans for their primary market - servers - and only if it meets server quality they will release the product.
Exist50@reddit
There's nothing good faith about publishing a "roadmap" that clearly isn't remotely aligned with reality. That's just deceptive.
And delaying things quarter by quarter is just insulting.
braiam@reddit
You can make the perfect plans, but reality will make you do compromises. They decided that their compromises are delays. They have internal targets to meet, and none of them are about having a fan ready at X date, but having a fan that meets their expectations.
This is the trinity that most companies confront: good, early or cheap. They went with good.
Exist50@reddit
If you need to take several times the time you originally claimed, you clearly do not understand the scope of the problem. If you still don't understand the scope multiple years in (evidenced by these quarter by quarter delays), you're incompetent.
braiam@reddit
They understand the scope of their problem, except that a single mistake done early on, will only be found after 2 years of development. They have stress test that compress 10 years of usage in just a couple months, which can only be done after most things are said and done. They try to leverage as much knowledge early on to avoid having to go to the drawing board late in the process, but there's so much you can do without real world testing. This is where the most severe delays lies.
Exist50@reddit
And they encounter this same problem, many times in a row, for every single thing they make? Even taking that excuse at face value, it means they have a horribly inefficient design flow, and poor understanding of their work.
braiam@reddit
Can you improve their design flow in a meaningful way and that produce quality long term solutions for their clients?
Here's their design flow: https://youtu.be/82LZkglNiQ0?t=913
Exist50@reddit
Ask what their competitors are doing. It's clearly possible.
And if Noctua wants to entrench even further, then they should stop publishing a roadmap or talking about any future products.
braiam@reddit
Only one competitor comes close: Thermalright’s Phantom Spirit 120. And we haven't gotten to the long term tests as Noctua has done.
Exist50@reddit
That's not the only one. And they have plenty of competitors in fans.
braiam@reddit
And yet, it's the only one people keep mentioning in Noctua's threads? :shrug:
Exist50@reddit
It's the best example, not only.
braiam@reddit
So... list the rest?
Exist50@reddit
More from Thermalright, Deepcool, maybe Phanteks.
braiam@reddit
I asked for a list of products, not a list of companies. I identified the product in question, you need to do the same.
Exist50@reddit
Take your pick of Thermalright's recent 120mm/140mm dual tower coolers. Deepcool has their Assassin line.
GoombazLord@reddit
This reeks of entitlement. At the end of the day they are delaying because it's not ready yet.
Do you honestly think Noctua is intentionally missing these deadlines?
Exist50@reddit
It's their public roadmap. Nothing entitled about judging them on their own claims. Noctua's not entitled to respect just by existing.
No, but they are intentionally lying about when they'll finish.
GoombazLord@reddit
I don't feel insulted that they missed their roadmap, but I am disappointed.
Why would they intentionally miss their deadlines? It makes them look incompetent, there is no upside. I think it's far more likely that they are bad at setting deadlines, and don't do a good job of factoring in time for unforeseen complications that may come up.
Exist50@reddit
The upside would be that people delay upgrading until the products are actually available (if they ever are). Would people care about Noctua if they were honest and said it would take 5, 10 years for something new to come out? No, they'd just write Noctua off, and buy elsewhere.
I lumped that under incompetence, but at a certain point, anyone engaging in good faith would realize they're still a long ways off, and not play this game with incremental delays. Reminds me of Amtrak...
GoombazLord@reddit
Nobody at Noctua, or anywhere on Earth for that matter, anticipated it would take 5-10 years to develop this fan.
Exist50@reddit
And yet here we are. Do you think anyone at Noctua has legitimately believed it's been a quarter away for the last 2 years? No engineer has that kind of optimism.
Ploddit@reddit
Nothing bad faith about it if you understand how Noctua works. Whether it's good for them in the long term to operate the way they do is debatable.
Exist50@reddit
What does that have to do with anything? It's absolutely bad faith to lie to customers about when your next products will be ready.
Ploddit@reddit
Hey, look at the bizarrely angry weirdo who thinks a roadmap is a guarantee and has zero interest in actually learning anything.
Exist50@reddit
Why are you so upset about Noctua being judged on their own public claims?
And learn what? That Noctua's been bullshitting for years?
Ploddit@reddit
Upset? I'm not the one throwing out accusations of "bad faith" when a company doesn't hit obviously fungible roadmap goals. Or who won't even bother sitting through a video to understand why his accusation is nonsense.
But, keep going big guy. You're making really valuable contributions here.
Exist50@reddit
I'm calling a spade a spade. Apparently that's too much for you to handle.
Ploddit@reddit
No, you said something dumb and are too ignorant to admit it.
Exist50@reddit
Lol, sure.
Healthy_BrAd6254@reddit
They've only done that once. This is by no means normal for Noctua.
The A12x25 is the only one. Every single other Noctua fan was not the best when it released afaik. The Gentle Typhoon, which the A12x25 is based on, was released in \~2008 and it is competitive with the A12x25 while shitting on every other Noctua fan available up until then (\~2018).
Noctua is good at branding, that's for sure.
I don't think they're lying on purpose with the roadmaps. They're not really gaining much from it other than looking incompetent. They obviously just suck and making an ETA or it's something with the way they do things that lets them iterate very slowly.
I mean, the only actually very good fan they released is based on a different fan. Maybe they just suck at making something from ground up.
OftenSarcastic@reddit
Unless you're trying to build a quiet system, since it apparently performs relatively poorly at low RPM, especially with a dust filter, has a PWM mode that doesn't spin up until 900 RPM, and occasionally suffers from high vibration and resonance noises at higher speeds. https://www.hwcooling.net/en/nidec-servo-gentle-typhoon-d1225c-wont-lose-to-just-any-fan-test/
And on a personal note it was completely unavailable in some markets. I remember that because they were on my list of fans to look for until I gave up and bought some Noctua NF-A14 instead (which luckily happened to be better anyway in a case filled with dust filters).
Healthy_BrAd6254@reddit
Their testing uses an anemometer, which is unreliable. Especially at low rpm.
HWBusters uses a professional fan tester. Here are their results: Nidec measurements, Noctua measurements, SW4 measurements (newer, includes more fans)
The way they show their results kinda sucks imo. If you want to know case performance, look at the noise normalized cfm numbers. If you want to know radiator performance, you need to look at the PQ curves.
But it looks like below \~900rpm the Noctua is indeed quieter than the Nidec. Maybe due to the bearing. Above \~900rpm they seem to perform very similarly, maybe the Nidec slightly better.
Anyway, I am not a fan of measuring cfm. It doesn't really make sense. It's more accurate to look at actual performance on a radiator or heatsink, because that's what you actually care about.
In real world tests the Nidec usually roughly matches the A12x25 or is very slightly behind (e.g. Optimum Tech,...). Definitely the most impressive fan considering it came out like 16 years ago.
Metz93@reddit
HWBusters have some very weird results, fan tester or not.
The most damning for me are the Silent Wings 4 vs Silent Wings Pro 4 results. These are, AFAIK, the same fan, with Pro's coming with radiator optimized corners pre installed, and some other small things (nicer cable, speed switch).
Seeing the Pro's perform better across the board would not surprise me. What doesn't make sense to me is how they switch places between 120mm and 140mm. In 120mm, non Pro's heavily outperform the Pro's, in 140mm, the situation is reversed, Pro's and now much better. Again, for the most part, this is the same fan.
Even when comparing same size of the fan, but looking at the same fan sold at different speeds (high speed vs PWM), the results are odd. PWM version of SW4's is better at 80%/950rpm than "high speed" version is at 50%/1114rpm. I'm only looking at performance at given RPM in case these use different motors, however everything else should be the same.
Also, I'm not sure about this, but I think they measure the fan noise and speeds when it's not installed on the fan tester, or any other obstacle, just in free air, and then transfer those to the machine and their charts? That's.... not a great way to do it IMO.
Healthy_BrAd6254@reddit
You are right. Those measurements do not make sense. They should have the exact same blade design and perform identically between high speed and non high speed at a given rpm.
Damn, you just can't trust any non real world fan testing, can you?
Metz93@reddit
Even that is probably hard to get right.
Fan performance can swing wildly depending on the type of restriction you give it and RPM. Sound profile will change too. Even the distance of the obstruction from the blades matters, both for performance but especially sound.
My issue isn't even that HWBusters have strange data, but that there was 0 curiosity as to what caused it. They probably can't afford the time commitment, but it makes it hard to trust anything they put out.
Another thing I noticed is even at their noise normalized dB point of 20, some of the fans are already doing 1500rpm. That's way too fast to be your lowest measurement.
Jeep-Eep@reddit
There's also the somewhat nontangible and non-objective factor of 'how irksome is the sound these fans make when under load'. Noctuas tend to be fairly consistently high rated in that domain.
HillbillyZT@reddit
This is the big one for me. Whether Noctuas are quieter than the competition, seems like eh it's a toss up. But no premium fans I've had have ever really 'disappeared' like the Noctuas.
The only way to really assess this would be providing a spectrum analysis of the tested noise, but that still encounters many of the same testing issues, since everything from fan orientation to static pressure requirements to desired operating rpm to the case materials and geometry drastically can alter fan acoustic characteristics. And even then, consumers would need to understand what they even want that spectrum analysis to look like for it to be very useful to them.
Jeep-Eep@reddit
And overall, I think Noctuas sound 'good' in most cases on the market at the moment.
f3n2x@reddit
If you factor in everything, including build quality and sound profile (not just dba), they absolutely are near or at the top with several models. I've heard this soo many times: "XYZ is just as good/better than noctua but much cheaper", only for that thing to screech like a banshee at exactly the wrong rpm; or underperform in real world conditions because they can't keep up the pressure or because of weird stream dynamics if there is actual air resistence.
They are by no means the only good fans out there but they absolutely are consistently among the best.
mesajoejoe@reddit
Agreed. The only fans I'll buy right now are Noctua or maybe Phantek T30. I just won't sacrifice noise profile to save some $$.
TSP-FriendlyFire@reddit
Not to dunk on them or anything (I have some T30s and like them very much), but the T30 kinda cheats by being thick. You wouldn't think 5mm would be such a big deal but they're noticeably bigger fans than my other standard 25mm fans.
I'd actually like to see an "A12x30" or even thicker, most PC chassis could fit them and performance should be much superior.
PiousPontificator@reddit
I dunno what qualities you consider when naming something best, but durability/longevity is one of them for me. Prior Noctua fans may not have had the absolute best performance but they were very well rounded in terms of performance, noise, and longevity. You don't really hear about Noctua fans failing or bearing noise popping up years later.
thebluehotel@reddit
To add to this, companies like Puget make no nonsense systems and use their fans. Their pre builts are legit and they have some great articles on PC troubleshooting.
If it’s another hundred bucks up charge to get a product I know won’t fail, has an immense warranty, and has great performance (especially with regards to their noise profile being less offensive than other designs at the same dB level), it’s a super tiny cost to pay for a great product. On top of that if you keep your CPU cooler you know they might send a free upgrade kit if the design of the mounting holes change.
100 bucks for noctua premium is a small percentage if you have a $2000 rig; that being said, the 4080 noctua is kind of a bad deal lol.
Jeep-Eep@reddit
Also a saving over multiple builds.
Scrimps@reddit
Puget uses their fans because a decade ago they signed a deal that allows them to buy in bulk with gigantic margins. They also over charge consumers.
I work in cyber security (blue team). I have been around advanced systems, data centers, super computers. Trust me when I say nobody uses Noctua.
They all use high performance commercial fans. Often ordered with direct partnerships with manufactures who do not make these fans available to the public. (Unless the public has an account with a B2B dealer).
OftenSarcastic@reddit
FWIW I have six NF-A14 FLX fans. After 9 years (so 1.5x their 6 year warranty) two of them started making rattling noises between 700-800 RPM and a third is making slight turbulence noise like's it's off balance. All six fans gradually needed more voltage to wake up on system boot. I went up from minimum \~500 RPM to minimum \~600 RPM on average.
Of the two NF-A15 fans on my NH-D15, one of them started making loud turbulence noise above 1200 RPM at some point. I'm not sure when it started since I don't run them that fast normally.
Scrimps@reddit
Kolink International Corporation makes most of the parts for Noctua, including their fans. They make fans and parts for many other manufactures and even have their own line.
Spirited-Guidance-91@reddit
This. I don't want to even think about fan bearings and structural integrity. I just want to keep on spinning.
4 fans for $120 sucks but they've lasted me almost a decade without complaint or even noticeable degradation.
Scrimps@reddit
You can buy $50 coolers and $20 four packs of fans that outperform Noctua products.
Noctua is just full of shit at this point.
_PPBottle@reddit
their reputation right now is being built upon years of delays.
At this point they are like that retired boxer that had a couple of belt 2 decades ago, were soundly beat just before their retired but still have a very vocal minority spamming in social media well if X was still in his prime he would be the GOAT!
Exist50@reddit
More like people pretending he's still currently in his prime.
ifq29311@reddit
yeah, bunch of fantastically incompetent people designing probably the best cooling solutions on the market
but people be bitching that they want the new and shiny and 0,3°C better
Exist50@reddit
They aren't the best. Thermalright is kicking their asses at less than half the price.
So they want what the competition already offers, for cheaper? And you think that's absurd to expect?
sadnessjoy@reddit
It's mostly their customer service IMO, warranty coverage, and long operation rating on their fan bearings. I've had defective out of the box products from them. Their RMA department wasn't too great for situations like this, but once you go through the whole song and dance with them and prove, no, it's not user error, the product is actually defective, they'll send a replacement in the mail for free, along with some nice bonuses.
I had a defective cooler, first they blamed me for user error, after a bit of back and forth, they blamed the mounting bracket/kit. I then tried to show them precise measurements with my calipers to show that the mounting bracket was fine, that there was a manufacturing defect with the orientation of the base plate on the actual cooler. They assured me that wasn't possible. I get the new mounting kit, sent pictures that it was literally identical to the one in the box. And that the CPU was still not able to properly mount. They finally sent a cooler. (Note: I bought the CPU cooler at the same time as other parts, this was during the shortage a few years back and the motherboard took two months to arrive, so the CPU cooler was outside of the return window for the retailer)
However, I had a fan that started making this terrible noise after a few years. It was far easier as I just showed them clear photos of the fan still being in really good condition with virtually no dust on it and an audio recording and they were quite quick about it.
nanonan@reddit
That sounds like absolutely terrible customer service.
f3n2x@reddit
I've had a defective fan once and they immediately sent me a replacement no questions asked. All they wanted was the original invoice as well as a time stamped photo of the old fan with one of the blades torn off after I've received the replacement.
sadnessjoy@reddit
Yeah, like I mentioned in another reply, I suspect it had to do with the fact that Noctua probably deals with VERY few heatsink RMAs, so my RMA wasn't so "go by the script". As I'm sure most heatsinks are returned to the retailer if there's an issue... And chunks of metal typically don't go bad lol.
Exist50@reddit
That's not exactly a glowing endorsement, especially given the price...
sadnessjoy@reddit
No, I'll say that CPU cooler RMA wasn't a great experience. What I imagined what happened is most of the time CPU heat sinks either work or they don't (I mean, they're just a chunk of metal with some special gas/fluid in the heat pipes lol). My guess is most of the time when the heatsinks are defective, they're returned to the retailer, so the RMA department doesn't deal with it much.
Their fans really are good for noise/longevity/performance/etc though. Whether their fans and heatsinks are worth the Noctua price premium though, I'm not sure.
braiam@reddit
And took several years of interactions to reach that. Meanwhile the people that bought their fans when they were first released, have not been needing a fan upgrade.
Jeep-Eep@reddit
And there is lifespan questions.
Asgard033@reddit
If you want Noctua fan life, you can buy a Thermalright cooler and a Noctua fan to put on it, and it'll still be cheaper than buying a Noctua cooler.
NH-D15 on Amazon is $109.95 at the time of this post.
NF-A15 fan is $23.94, Peerless Asssassin is $32.49... = $80.37 if you buy two NF-A15 to put on the Peerless Assassin.
Exist50@reddit
And really, if you're going to buy noctua fans, might as well get the actually good one, the a12x25. Works out to about the same in total and probably beats the crap out of the D15.
Exist50@reddit
So?
ifq29311@reddit
which tells you how well the thermal solutions are designed today and how little space has been left for any innovation whatsoever
oh, and it took thermalright like 10 years to close the gap to noctuas performance
Metz93@reddit
Silver Arrow SB-E Extreme or some Macho variants were very much competitive with Noctua's dual/single towers at the time, there just wasn't nearly as much chatter about them.
Exist50@reddit
The difference is actually larger than that, in Thermalright's favor. And Noctua charges 2-3x what Thermalright does. If they were priced similarly, there would be more of a discussion.
No one cares. We're talking about buying today, not 10 years ago.
Metz93@reddit
Designing "the best cooling solutions on the market" is moot when it takes them 10 years to iterate on their product.
Their 140mm fans are really poor, no wonder as they've released in 2012. Their latest high-end cooler is probably NH-U12A, released 5 years ago, that gets beaten by Deepcool AK620 for half the price or various Thermalright offerings for 1/3 the price.
Jeep-Eep@reddit
TBH, their shit is still at minimum competitive right now, so they can afford to take the time to get that fucker right.
Exist50@reddit
Pretty much nothing but the a12x25 is.
_PPBottle@reddit
I would say the 9x14 is also pretty good specially for the noise concious SFF crowd.
But yeah not a good look at all. Nowadays even Arctic which used to be the fast food chain of fan/coolers is matching them on products at a fraction of the cost.
Metz93@reddit
A12x25, some of the SFF stuff and <120mm fans (since nobody else bothers with these) are pretty competitive I guess.
The rest, depends on your definition of competitive. Paying double of triple for same or slightly worse performance isn't what I'd call competitive.
Competitive in a sense they still cool pretty well, simply by the nature of them being top of the market products on release, sure.
Kupuntu@reddit
In which way though? I knew those were outdated but if that's the case then I'd like to get something quieter and better specced (both, not one or the other) if possible. A lot of the stuff I saw had better specs but those were also a lot louder.
Kalecino@reddit
don't even try to argue with this person, their entire existence is to shit on noctua
oilpit@reddit
The George RR Martin conundrum
Winter_2017@reddit
I think the problem is that the fan has to be good enough to justify noctua pricing, and the competition is a better value to such an extent that any release will fall flat.
There whole business model (on the consumer side) is to be the best and charge the most. If they release a product that is worse or matches a competitor they risk damaging their brand image.
chig____bungus@reddit
Turns out there's quickly diminishing returns once you've roughly worked out the optimal configuration for spinning plastic fins.
Almost every technology is like this. 80 percent of the gains take 20 percent of the work, the next 20 percent of the gains take 80 percent of the work.
Exist50@reddit
That's the current state of most of their product stack.
dr1ppyblob@reddit
Excuse my ignorance… but why is this taking so long? I mean now we have cheapo chinese brands like Thermalright making great coolers that practically shun Noctua into the ground in the air cooler market. How isn’t Noctua able to respond? They’ve always been considered a premium brand, but not-so-premium RnD?
Exist50@reddit
As you can see in this thread, their brand is very strong regardless of how bad their product offerings are.
dr1ppyblob@reddit
I mean I didn’t wanna say it but… ~~their brand is basically held up by their diehard fan~~
hhkk47@reddit
The competition has definitely caught up in performance, but it will still take some time for any of them to prove that they can match Noctua's bullet-proof reliability. For machines that need to run 24/7, I still go with Noctua, at least for now.
Strazdas1@reddit
I run Corsair fans 24/7 for years and they never fail on me. I replace them due to moving to a different setup before they fail.
LiliNotACult@reddit
What about be quiet?
nanonan@reddit
Superior in my eyes. Just as quiet, just as performant, cheaper, five year warranty. Can't go wrong.
TheJohnnyFlash@reddit
Good product management is holding off if it's not ready. Bad product management is Starfield.
Exist50@reddit
Starfield made money. Sometimes, you just have to stop polishing and actually ship something. That's pretty key to product management.
TheJohnnyFlash@reddit
I hear Tesla is hiring...
Starfield made a faction of what it would have if they had held off. It had the same potential TES does, but they rushed it out and now that's the branding tied to it.
Exist50@reddit
A fraction? Are you joking?
TheJohnnyFlash@reddit
Skyrim has sold over 70M copies. Do you think this ever gets even close to that?
It was a new universe and a black slate. Sure they got 13 million sales, but they could have built onto this easily.
I bought it on release, played about 7 hours and never went back. I won't be buying the next one out the gate.
Exist50@reddit
No, but not because of a buggy release. Hell, Skyrim itself was extremely janky. The changes they'd have to make are way bigger than just "delay the game another couple of months" sorts of things.
TheJohnnyFlash@reddit
So let's say they take another two years to polish and release it, at a cost of $5M a year. They only need to sell an additional 600,000 copies to break even on that investment.
Strazdas1@reddit
The issue isnt time. The issue is Bethesdas team is not competent to do things. It was fine when it was the only game in town with Morrowind and Oblivion. It has become increasingly irrelevant comapred to alternatives we now have.
Exist50@reddit
Starfield reportedly had a development team of ~500 members. If you want to significantly increase the scope/development time, I'd assume you'd need basically the full team.
Let's assume a $100k average salary per employee. So that's $50M per year in just salary, or another $100M in total cost. They'd need to sell millions of more copies to justify it. Also, a good rule of thumb is that employees in total (wages + insurance, tools, etc) cost about twice their salary, so the expense could be even greater.
I don't think that realistically would have made financial sense.
Strazdas1@reddit
Starfield was delayed an extra year on MS request to polish it. It would have released in even worse state otherwise. Also, you cannot fix it by holding it longer becuase starfield is broken at the core design. Starfield shows tat Bethesda was coasting on the lore from the early 00s and without it their games are little more than a joke.
lupin-san@reddit
Why all the hate? Did Noctua fcked you in the ass so hard? You've been shtting on them the entire thread.
Let them be if they want to delay their product for reasons, valid or not. With all the hate you've been spewing out, you're not going to buy anyways.
Exist50@reddit
As long as Noctua sees fit to publish this public roadmap, I see no reason why I should refrain from judging them on it. And they've been playing this game for years. It's downright insulting at this point.
I would happily buy Noctua if they had competitive products. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that I used to have an NH-D14. But that doesn't excuse lying to people.
LiliNotACult@reddit
The quality is top tier. The design is top tier. It is just that it takes them half a decade to design and release anything.
braiam@reddit
Actually, their R&D is super premium. Gamers Nexus have an entire interview of their process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82LZkglNiQ0
But the TL;dw: there are several critical points in the development process, one of which is long term stress testing, that can take 4 months, and then they perform another long term testing in several real world conditions, to then analyze the fans before and after each of these test. This is literally end of development and if everything goes OK ready for mass production. If anything fails, it will be delaying production 12-18 months depending of the problem that happened (ie. material selection, blade design, enclosure design, etc.).
TL;dr: Thermalright coolers are good now, because they were selling bad coolers before. Noctua coolers were always top notch in the noise/performance.
Exist50@reddit
What reason do we have to believe that's meaningfully different vs competitors?
Inquisitive_idiot@reddit
Have you tried Noctua fans?
Whatever their doing, it’s not only working but it’s kickin ass and taking names.
Exist50@reddit
Yes, I had an NH-D14 back in the Haswell days. But that was then and this is now. The reality is that the competition has surpassed Noctua in many areas, often at substantially lower prices.
Inquisitive_idiot@reddit
Someone just posted a bunch of links above that I have to read. 🤔
Let’s leave it at my information being a mix of dated and based on continued great experiences with their products.
I just bought/installed some noctuas in a noisy network appliance this week and damn if the drop in dB didn’t reliably impress. 😌
If others are able to do what noctua can do with noise/pressure, as above, I have some reading to do. 📚
braiam@reddit
Note, that is all the noise/performance with also longevity. Many users that bought Noctua fans years ago, those fans still work. That's something newcomer don't have and have to earn.
Exist50@reddit
Thermalright is older than Noctua, iirc.
braiam@reddit
The fact that it took them 10 years to start touching their toes in the noise/performance category?
Exist50@reddit
If Noctua's methodology was both unique and a benefit, you'd expect they would be comfortably ahead, instead of falling further behind.
RunningLowOnBrain@reddit
Until you realize that Noctua has all but perfected PC fan tech.
Once you reach the finish line, there's nowhere else to go.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Sure, "perfected PC fan tech" and then you have the Thermalright Peerless Assassin beating Noctua in price and performance.
braiam@reddit
Gamers Nexus even recognize that Noctua still have competitiveness in the cooler space:
https://gamersnexus.net/coolers/champ-41-thermalright-peerless-assassin-cpu-cooler-review-benchmarks
Exist50@reddit
Lmao, that's an extremely generous conclusion to take away from that review...
Support and accessories aren't worth 2-3x the price for a worse product.
Exist50@reddit
They have not.
Metz93@reddit
You keep repeating this throughout the post but it's just not true.
Le Grand Macho was basically on par with NH-D15, with a single fan. Definitely outperforms D15S
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/thermalright-le-grand-macho/6.html
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7986/thermalright-le-grand-macho-rt-cpu-cooler-review/index.html#Installation-and-Finished-Product
Going back even further, it's hard to find reliable reviews, but pre NH-D15, Thermalright also had Silver Arrow Extreme, which at least in this review also beats the D15
https://www.hwcooling.net/en/gigantic-retrotest-of-80-cpu-coolers-2005-2015/4/
You can also see other coolers competing there, like the Raijintek, Cryorig or Deepcool, all of which are also featured here
Deepcool's Assassin III, released in 2019, also beat NH-D15. GamersNexus has the data if you feel like looking them up.
Noctua makes very good fans and coolers, but they're not this untouchable company with magic fairy dust that makes them perform so well, they've always had close competitors.
thebigman43@reddit
This feels like a significant lack of engineering on their part. You can have some samples preforming in real world conditions long term, but you dont actually do your reliability testing in real time. There are tons of ways to simulate material aging on the plastics, bearings, etc without just running the fan at normal speeds for months.
Exist50@reddit
People are mistaking inefficiency for thoroughness. It's kind of funny.
thebigman43@reddit
Yea it’s kinda crazy. I’m sure their testing is great, but I work on the reliability team of a large tech company shipping complex products, so I have a general idea if what this stuff looks like. Long term spin tests for something like a fan do happen, but it’s in parallel with a dozen accelerated tests, and you don’t wait the full X months of spinning in a regular environment before making any changes. Ofc the commenter might just be full of BS, but if that’s true, it is a terrible sign of inefficiency
madn3ss795@reddit
Thermalright not spending on distribution and marketing (even now) is not them making bad coolers.
kurephos@reddit
🦗
wichwigga@reddit
Taiwanese. Thermalright is Taiwanese.
Sopel97@reddit
pretty colors go brr
twodogsfighting@reddit
Darker gritter batman meme.
Exist50@reddit
Lmao, Noctua living up to their reputation. I wish they'd just admit that they have no serious interest in developing new products so people could move on.
moochs@reddit
Serious question, why do they need to develop new products? Their fans and coolers are excellent, albeit a bit expensive, but they come with an industry leading warranty/guarantee? People love to hate on Noctua, likely because they aren't the best value, but they are quality products already.
Exist50@reddit
Worse products at 2-3x the price is not a sustainable long term business model, particularly if the gap continues to grow.
Other companies also produce excellent fans/coolers, and in many cases have good warranties.
But the reality of the market is that warranty and customer service only goes so far. The actual heatsink is essentially immortal, and fans generally last long enough and are cheap enough that the difference between a 1% and 2% failure rate (or any sufficiently low numbers) just doesn't matter.
Think, why would you spend 2x now for a fan to last 7 or even 10 years instead of 5? It just doesn't make economic sense.
Brostradamus_@reddit
For regular home consumers? Yeah it's a tough argument to make, unless you are really averse to working on or otherwise changing your hardware for long periods of time. There's lots of people who buy a machine and then run it for 10 years and don't want to have to think about fans.
In an industrial or commercial setting, where paying the technician to swap the fan costs a shitload more in labor and machine downtime, companies are perfectly happy to pay a little more for the reputation, warranty, and extended testing.
moochs@reddit
The market will be the deciding factor then. My experience with the other players in the game is they are cheaper and look just as good on paper, but their reliability is much worse. I'll take reliability for a product I buy once every 10 years over some no-name brand with questionable warranties.
regenobids@reddit
On liquid perhaps. Air cooling is figured out and nothing bad can happen with one.
Exist50@reddit
Do you think Noctua is somehow the only name brand?
moochs@reddit
Well considering you're jumping on all of my comments all over this thread, I wonder what brand you think is somehow better? I will continue to buy Noctua because: 1. It works without issue 2. Excellent performance 3. No questions asked customer service and I can talk to a real person
Your comments aren't going to persuade me.
GladiatorUA@reddit
Noctua has to live up to their reputation. They can't do Arctic and release a fan then do a revision the same year because the bearings were shitty.
Exist50@reddit
Most of their lineup is underperforming and overpriced. Is that also part of their reputation?
braiam@reddit
The heck are you talking about? They are the benchmark to which every fan and heatsink combo is compared about when talking about noise/heat dissipation.
Exist50@reddit
Maybe a decade ago. These days, Thermalright crushes them.
braiam@reddit
How exactly are they being crushed? Do you have 10 years testing of the Thermalright fans? Since when Thermalright has been selling good fans? If your answer is "Thermalright good fan have been in the market 2 years" then they haven't earned Noctua reputation yet.
In 4-6 years we can see who actually gets it right.
Exist50@reddit
Better performance, lower noise, a fraction of the price.
Hell, it's literally cheaper to get a Thermalright tower and swap the fabs with Noctua.
inaccurateTempedesc@reddit
Lol, holy shit I might actually do that.
Exist50@reddit
I'm honestly shocked no reviewer has bothered to test this config.
Metz93@reddit
HWCanucks did some fans swapped testing, no A12x25 sadly. The results are somewhat all over the place
https://youtu.be/cgkggcBBW8Q?t=746
Brapplezz@reddit
That's my plan for my cooler if/when the fans die. I think the white PA I got would look ridiculous with the beige and brown
Dreamerlax@reddit
Are they even the benchmark still? We have coolers and fans 1/3 price easily trumping Noctua products at this stage.
XenonJFt@reddit
In this industry. Selling normal fans with just your name to speak for while others will eventually copy you is a route to immediate irrelevancy. Especially thier post purchuase support doesnt justify the overpriced nature of their products. especialy for a Fan/cooler
moochs@reddit
Their post purchase support is insanely good, and their products are some of the highest rated for longevity on the market. I don't know why people point to Chinese knock-offs as somehow being better overall, just cause they're cheaper
rustydingdong5@reddit
These Chinese 'knock-offs' have superior heat sink designs. I slapped some 2nd hand Noctua 120mm's on my Thermalright PS. It outperforms NH-D15 and will last just as long since we're comparing two hunks of metal. umad?
moochs@reddit
So you put Noctua fans on another manufacturer's heatsink?
You're kinda making my point for me son
rustydingdong5@reddit
You spoke of products in general not just fans. You won't be squealing your way out of this one, little boy. 🤪
moochs@reddit
Says the person who requires Noctua products to make other products better.
gomurifle@reddit
Post purchase support?! On flipping fans and a chunk of copper?! Lol
Nah. I've taken the risk on the chinese knock-offs and they are still working just fine after years of use.
moochs@reddit
Good for you? You can buy cheap all day, and I'll buy better quality fans.
XenonJFt@reddit
If I'm building my own rig for long term usage I would consider a noctua tower for hassle freeness. But they're fans. they're very replaceable and disposable vs the other parts AND they're very cheap so relying long term support for something this replaceable I completely understand not going for them
moochs@reddit
Exactly why I still buy them. Don't want to hassle with it.
Exist50@reddit
Their tower coolers are the worst offenders, but even most of their fans are beaten by others, and for a lower price.
Do you think Noctua invented the fan?
Exist50@reddit
It's not even that. People are still clearly willing to pay for the brand name, but Noctua simply doesn't release new products. The D15 successor has been delayed what? 3-4 years at this point? And it took ages to get simple things like black variants of their existing fans.
kikimaru024@reddit
But they did release new products.
Exist50@reddit
Perhaps I should have appended "competitive". Thermalright renders most of Noctua's lineup moot. And their coolers mostly still come with ancient fan designs.
Both of those are extremely small revisions of decade old designs.
moochs@reddit
Thermalright has zero post purchase support or guarantee. It's also produced in a country that doesn't pay workers enough. There's a bigger picture here.
Exist50@reddit
That's just outright false.
You realize Noctua produces in China, right?
moochs@reddit
I have RMA'd with both companies. Thermalright was disastrous. Noctua was zero questions asked.
I guess things have changed in the 9 years I've owned Noctua fans, because ALL OF THEM STILL WORK and I haven't had to buy more. They didn't used to be manufactured there back when I bought them, so good to know.
Exist50@reddit
They seem to be manufactured in both China and Taiwan, i.e. the same as pretty much every other manufacturer. Some years back there was a bit of media stir about differences between the two, but as far as I can tell, there was nothing really measurable.
PetrichorAndNapalm@reddit
They can release all this shit but can’t release a thicker fan to keep up with competitors. Their priorities are way off.
_PPBottle@reddit
I mean they have clearly moved on. This is why they launched the Industrial PPC line. They have been trying to shift away from being the Apple of fans.
The problem is that their vocal minority keeps shoving Noctua consumer products into any kind of fan/cooler discussion when it is clear this has become a second thought for them.
Exist50@reddit
But their industrial fans are pretty old, and as far as I can see, none use their latest tech. So I'm not sure what they're actually doing these days. Seems like they're just coasting.
AejiGamez@reddit
They are just coasting on their reputation at this point. People still buy their coolers, even though they are terrible value
Skulkaa@reddit
Yep , Peerless assassin has the same performance for 1/3 of the price.
The_EA_Nazi@reddit
Or anything from Arctic, Lian Li, or thermaltake. All three produce the best fans on the market, the best aios on the market, and some of the best air coolers on the market.
I have no idea what the infatuation is with noctua, they were relevant 6 years ago.
nanonan@reddit
Or bequiet or scythe. Noctua has really dropped off.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Unsure about Lian Li. People have complained about the fans going bad. Definitly not like Thermaltake where you have Amazon reviews with videos of people using the sound as a disco DJ
SenorShrek@reddit
thermalright and thermaltake are not the same.
IDUnavailable@reddit
The followup Phantom Spirit is slightly better for $7 IIRC. Extra heat pipe and slightly shorter and quieter.
Dreamerlax@reddit
It's a luxury good at this point.
braiam@reddit
Serious question, how many of you have a Noctua fan, and how many years it lasted and had to be replaced due old age?
moochs@reddit
This is why you buy Noctua. Everyone here is just wanting cheap stuff, with no care about longevity.
x3nics@reddit
I have a bunch of fans that are older than 7 years (Nidec GT's, Eloops and TY-140's) and they still work perfectly fine, do you think Noctua fans are made of magic fairy dust or something?
moochs@reddit
No, but they objectively use the best bearings on the market, and use higher quality components than just about every other OEM. I'm sick and tired of cheapskates on this sub raving about Thermalright and other brands for being "just as good" when their bearings start rubbing a few months later. If they were just as good, they would cost more to manufacture, and they would be equally expensive.
Asgard033@reddit
Even in the premium segment, competition is increasing. Noctua didn't have to deal with companies like Phanteks or Lian Li a decade ago. Heck, even companies like Superflower and Seasonic are getting in on this market.
moochs@reddit
Ok, and? Competition isn't bad, but Noctua has a reputation for a reason. They're no frills, reliable, performant fans. I'm not interested in Phanteks or Lian Li, their products aren't for me. Phanteks aren't as high quality, and Lian Li is just as expensive.
Asgard033@reddit
There isn't really any reason to believe this, for the T30 at least. The T30's OEM is Sunon, a company well known for making good server fans.
Exist50@reddit
Or maybe other companies also make long lasting fans...
Also, both performance and noise matter.
gloomndoom@reddit
I have a bunch of Noctua fans and coolers, most in the 5-7 year range. I’ve been swapping lesser fans in upgrades for years. I had my first failure on a three year old LH-NL9a fan a few weeks ago on one of my kid’s rig. That’s it.
Aurailious@reddit
I leave my computer powered on and it's effectively been on since 2019. All 6 noctua fans are still running just like they were brand new. I would not be surprised if they last a decade or more.
tbird1g@reddit
I see some people spewing a lot of bs but let's face it, their 120mm A12 is still the best 120mm fan in a 25mm profile. Their coolers are still competing with the best out there. So they can take their sweet time and release it when they deem it to be the best version it can be. Have no issues there
Zygersaf@reddit
It's refreshing to see a delay rather than a rushed out product to be honest!
Exist50@reddit
Lol, there is nothing refreshing about Noctua's delays.
jedrider@reddit
This is going to imperil our entire technology stack! We'll only have melted silicon to show for our much heralded technological advancement.
Rais93@reddit
With the launch of silver soul Noctua doesn't know how to stay afloat.
MumrikDK@reddit
I suspect their sales aren't hurting from the lack of product. They've never competed on value.
NefariousnessTop8716@reddit
I’m happy with my noctuas on my mora but I wish they would release white fans so I can use them as case fans on an all white build. I’m sure at one point they were on the roadmap
kikimaru024@reddit
White fans disappeared from the road map years ago.
RobsterCrawSoup@reddit
Noctua isn't for everyone. For a price conscious buyer, you can get a lot better value for your dollar. However, I appreciate their commitment to preserving their reputation for quality and reliability. Buy building products of the highest quality, they can afford to delay release of new products because their existing products hold up against the competition still.
Boomposter@reddit
This isn't an NSFW sub, if you want to fellate a company there are many better places to do it.
skycake10@reddit
It's weird to hate a company that refuses to release products they don't think are good enough. I'd much rather more companies do that than repeatedly release slop that they know will get eaten up anyway.
Exist50@reddit
If they didn't want to be judged on their "roadmap", why publish it?
braiam@reddit
Their roadmap is "what we would project it will be if everything goes according to plan". You rarely see them publishing a roadmap for something that hasn't reached the tooling phase.
Exist50@reddit
If nothing they do ever remotely goes to plan, then the plans are garbage. That's incompetence.
braiam@reddit
Try you to come with a better solution. They literally scrapped 10-11 after they had the topology, because material science didn't have the rigidity to keep the fans from warping. They would have needed to go with metals, which presents itself with its own set of challenges.
Exist50@reddit
Maybe just ask their competitors. If nothing else, they don't play these games with their roadmaps.
djphan2525@reddit
it's really weird that noctua gets so much hate for being ultra patient... no one is really impacted by them not releasing a new fan...
Exist50@reddit
No, they get hate for lying to people.
braiam@reddit
Have you been in a company with a hardline deadline that has to be met or else? What happens at the end? You either release over-budget and are overworked and still have to fix shit afterwards. You do not need a fan now, you want all fans to be good. For Noctua, a good fan is one that keeps the same performance profile for 10 years.
Exist50@reddit
What does this all have to do with Noctua? They've been delaying these products quarter by quarter for years on end. So it's very clear that they've been lying about how far along it is.
braiam@reddit
That other companies can't hold a candle to Noctua despite releasing fans every 2-3 years. Those companies compromised on "good".
Exist50@reddit
Oh, so just delusional then. Those companies are beating Noctua, in many cases.
quildtide@reddit
Now I want to make r/onlynoctuafans if it doesn't already exist
Exist50@reddit
They do not in any objective metric.
ResponsibleJudge3172@reddit
Noctua is for people who spend for it simply because they can. It's not like there are no cheaper products that perform like them
PetrichorAndNapalm@reddit
The problem is they don’t hold up. They have very few products that are actually worth buying. It’s not even a “value” problem anymore. It is often “this costs more and is worse” problem.
Plus not being able to release very simple things like 30mm or 28mm fans, meaning they lose to any braindead Chinese company who wants to make thicker blades. They fight the laws of physics and are bullheaded and unwilling to adapt.
WuZI8475@reddit
The next gen 140mm are DOA as they'll likely be around 60 USD if the talk of the office increase due to new materials is correct. At that price people will just get the lianli 140mm.
BoltTusk@reddit
I heard the next gen NH-D15 is going to be >$130
Skulkaa@reddit
At that price you can get artic freezer III 420mm and get more performance
iNfzx@reddit
and horrendous pump whine
shimszy@reddit
What's the Lian Li 140? There's no p28 in 140 and their 140 uni fans are a pita compared to the 120s
eeke1@reddit
Noctua is aiming for a 3c difference compared to the current best in market.
They'll delay as much as they have to and avoid damaging their brand.
Not many of their current products are worth buying but they have a good enough brand that this delay won't matter.
As someone who's still using a dh15 from release there's no rush.
Exist50@reddit
According to what?
And more importantly, what happens if they never reach it? Will they just leave their lineup to rot indefinitely? It's a silly proposal.
eeke1@reddit
The gamers nexus interview with them.
If they never reach it, then they'll of course have to eventually release it and take the l.
The implication is that they are confident they can get there or close.
If course thinking it's all marketing is fine too. If you want to know more you can look at that interview.
MangoAtrocity@reddit
I saw exactly this same post a year ago and felt dumb for buying my NH-D15 knowing that a brand new version was just around the corner. I no longer feel dumb lmao
Exist50@reddit
Lol, the D15 successor was already long delayed then.
MortimerDongle@reddit
Would have been more surprising if they didn't delay it.
I'm happy with the Noctua fans I have, but it seems increasingly unlikely my next coolers/fans will be Noctua.
arlaarlaarla@reddit
Haven't they been leapfrogged by thermalright?
LightShadow@reddit
Is there even more to gain in this space? It's a fan... In one of six sizes.
Exist50@reddit
Incremental gains, sure. And the more commoditized a space becomes, the more pressure on pricing.
Also, the areas where Noctua could make big improvements to their lineup (14mm fan with A12x25 tech, 30mm fan to compete with Phanteks, colors and aesthetic improvements, etc) they don't seem to care much about.
Serious-Cover5486@reddit
Noctua need some spanking :D
TylerTexasCantDrive@reddit
When has a noctua fan release ever not been delayed by years?
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Those 24V 40mm fans appeared out of no where on their roadmap and it launched on-time?
Jaz1140@reddit
Ooooo not a fan of this...
HisDivineOrder@reddit
It's not blowing me away, either.
pittguy578@reddit
What are the specs on this new fan?
Snobby_Grifter@reddit
These guys remind me a lot of 3dfx (or any other company coasting off of nostalgia): it doesn't matter how good an older product is when the competition has done more than catch up.
PomegranateCalm2650@reddit
Truly world shattering development
a12223344556677@reddit
No. All signs indicate that the D15 will release on time, before the separate release of the fan.
Firstly Noctua is prioritizing production of fans for the cooler in order to have enough supply to satisfy the demand; secondly, the cooler uses the round variant, which doesn't suffer the same minute bending issues which caused the delay as the standard, square one.
Source: https://www.hwcooling.net/en/noctua-new-140-mm-fans-to-premiere-on-a-cpu-cooler/
Also the link you posted literally has D15 still on Q2.
bluesecurity@reddit
Noctua's Law has been broken! The number of fan blades on the die was supposed to double every 18 years! ;P
Laputa15@reddit
I swear I read something like this a month ago
PetrichorAndNapalm@reddit
You did. And every month for the last 5 years.
Boomposter@reddit
Going to release in 2035 and still be outdone by a Phanteks D30.
BoltTusk@reddit
Has anyone did a check of whether the demo unit they showed at Computex 2023 is still competitive with the Thermalright PA EVO in thermals?