A German state is moving 30,000 PCs to Linux and LibreOffice
Posted by themikeosguy@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 441 comments
Posted by themikeosguy@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 441 comments
leaflock7@reddit
Was it not in Munich that they have spend millions to get the public offices into Linux, only to spend more millions to go back to Windows?
The problem is that such a move must be supported in many levels and have a leader that takes no shit and no money under the table
mandiblesarecute@reddit
microsoft announced 2013 plans to move their german hq to munich (and they eventually did), and very totally unrelated in 2014 the munich city council considered moving back to windows (and they eventually did).
one must be very naive to not connect those dots
snyone@reddit
Ofc, Microsoft would never do something like that ::wink wink::
There's totally not a long and sordid history of them evading taxes and engaging in shady underhanded tactics like buying senators and congressmen that you might discover in a lengthly read like this one
pawwoll@reddit
Bro, microsoft of course would do shady shit, its microsoft. Are you stupid?
Loud_Literature_61@reddit
There are enough gullible naive people out there to help something like that along so that it can come to pass, unfortunately.
AndersLund@reddit
And soon the HQ will be in Schleswig-Holstein
leaflock7@reddit
exactly!!
A_norny_mousse@reddit
I really hope Schleswig-Holstein won't fall victim to Microsoft's (and admittedly a sizeable number of politicians) grift.
From what I remember, it all worked really well but small problems (that occur on any OS) and people's inertia (it's not like Windows!Help!) had been blown way out of proportion, even weaponized.
Well, congratulations for now!
I do believe times have changed, FOSS and IT independence are an important part of EU policy etc.
But in the end, only time will tell.
leaflock7@reddit
indeed , lets hope for the best
disastervariation@reddit
Yeah my understanding of the whole Munich thing is that Microsoft started lobbying hard to get them back on Windows, including a 90% licensing discount and agreeing to move its German headquarters to Munich
LordOfTheBinge@reddit
This.
Steve Ballmer was there in person (article in German: https://www.pcwelt.de/article/1181993/muenchens-ex-ob-ballmer-sprang-durchs-buero-wegen-wechsel-zu-linux.html )
leavemealonexoxo@reddit
Yes,and Microsoft moving German/eu headquarter to Munich aside, people have to remember that Munich/Bavaria doing something (like moving to Linux) is maybe even bigger than Schleswig Holstein moving to Linux cause Bavaria is always quite significant when it comes to national politics (through CSU, the sister party of Merkel’s CDU)
ukezi@reddit
The city of Munich has SPD majors since 1984.
leavemealonexoxo@reddit
Yes Munich, but not Bavaria where it could have also started to become „fashion“
EverythingsBroken82@reddit
not millions. billions in the end. there are rumors that the mayor regrets it.
and the same time, windows came, microsoft moved to munich. what a coincidence.
SV-97@reddit
They saved millions overall with the project in munich (despite the more than questionable decision to use their own custom distro) and cited numerous other benefits. The cancellation plans of the project were clearly due to microsoft lobbying and corruption (the plans to move off of linux incidentally coincided quite closely with MS moving its German headquarter to munich and some of the involved politicians had ties to MS).
Anyway: the original limux plans to rely on open source have since been reinstated officially (again: incidentally after a new city council came to power)
leaflock7@reddit
I know very well that MS (and others) do not loose money. They might took a hit back then with the 80-90% discount but they got that money and more in the coming years.
I do hope though that it will be a valid project, and not one that the XYZ politician/Council wants to make some money out of this
MistressBeotch@reddit
What is an open version option of one drive and one note ? I need to continue to sync docs, photos from Phone, to laptop to desktop to offsite backup.
VPN wise, do companies have good Gui VPN or is it just command line? Most people can't handle command Line, especially the new generationnafter me....bahahahha
Roblu3@reddit
Nextcloud and literally any GUI client the existing VPN solutions that you can just install if and only if you want them.
awpdog@reddit
In a nutshell, the State Chancellery reports the following decisions concerning the news:
Transition from Microsoft Office to LibreOffice
Transition from the Microsoft Windows operating system to Linux (distro not specified, but if it's to be German, then it's OpenSUSE)
Collaborations between the state government and external partners: use of Nextcloud, Open Xchange/Mozilla Thunderbird in relation with Univention AD-Connector in lieu of Microsoft SharePoint and Microsoft Exchange/Outlook
Conceptualization of an open-source based directory service in lieu of Microsoft Active Directory
Inventory of procedures to maintain compatibility and interoperability with LibreOffice and Linux
Development of an open-source based VoIP solution in lieu of Telekom-Flexport (telephony solution from Deutsche Telekom)
lalanalahilara@reddit
Opensuse is not German. SUSE originated in Germany but it moved long ago.
TomOnABudget@reddit
Very interesting. If you look for "Software" related job listings on their website, then you'll find them in all sort of countries. But only a minority of Jobs are listed in Germany.
awpdog@reddit
Ahhh I see. Thanks for correcting.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Probably a smart idea, don't want to rely on other countries for OS either.
Eventual_disclaimer@reddit
Going to Linux for OS is one thing, but, and I say this as a years-long debian desktop gaming user, nothing can replace excel.
world_dark_place@reddit
calc? anyways, I think excel is misused and Microsoft is not doing a favor enabling this behaviour. For example, there are a lot of small enterprises using excel as database, instead of doing a correct SQL database to meet effectively their needs. Excel is just a spreadsheet, but people is misusing it, 2 causes, they are IT ignorant and they don't want to put money on IT sector of their enterprises, they see it as extra, when it should be the backbone of any company.
Eventual_disclaimer@reddit
Last time I used Calc it couldn't work with an XLSX file I inherited, due to lack ot table functionality.
world_dark_place@reddit
Did you check with onlyoffice?
Eventual_disclaimer@reddit
No. Work need doing, so fired up the office lappy that had office installed.
Long gone are the days where I bust my noggin fartin around to find solutions.
My Debian PC is solid, runs the games I like to play very well.
I just accept the fact that sometimes the right tool is MS based.
world_dark_place@reddit
Its not just to make our needs met. Instead we need options and alternatives so it doesn't the last thing we have in order to work because we need our free of choice and to avoid enterprise abuse. We have a clear example here, chromium, it doesn't have any serious competitors and now the enshitification of the internet is a real problematic, manifest v3 for example, or webGPU incompatibility because of potato.
mbitsnbites@reddit
This is such great news! I think that Germany has previously argued that government IT systems should follow democratic principles by using open source solutions, which makes perfect sense IMO. I wish Sweden would follow, but sadly most Swedish official IT systems and organizations are deeply tied into Microsoft.
Possibly-Functional@reddit
It was developing major software projects for the Swedish government that convinced me that FOSS is critical for government digitalization. Unfortunately they lack the competency to identify that.
654354365476435@reddit
Why do you think FOSS is must have for goverments?
BoomSie32@reddit
Spot on question; now with proprietary, do you get to see the source code? Do you know it’s safe? Is it not sharing anything with the creator or their country in house intelligence agencies? It you think Windows for example was free of pre installed back doors, you’re just naive. The zero day things also are sometimes those back doors.
Fun fact about open source (besides keeping the money for IT in the country even) is also that it happens there with state actors. Most recently ‘XZ’. Brilliant … but caught before it entered most lts distros even. Scary thing is … maybe others did succeed and we never know, however … opensource, so we can always freely access it to read and what it does. (Not with the XZ hack though … that one went out of the ball park but got caught in a way that the entire foss world shook and everyone is coming up with double check solutions that source code compiled == source code compiled after running tests)
mbitsnbites@reddit
I don't think that it's as much a practical isse as a principle: You do not want hand over all control of your country's infrastructure to a foreign commercial actor.
E.g. would it make sense to have no insight into or guarantees about the longlivety of your energy infrastructure, roads, etc? Sure, you can hire contractors for certain jobs, but renting infrastructure? It's nuts when you think about it.
DrPiwi@reddit
Still that is excatly what happens on a large scale today; They have software that uses a oracle database, and Oracle steps in and basically forces you to move your database in to their cloud; you can refuse and keep your on premise databaseservers buth they will strangle you with the license cost. And to get the performance you had with local data it will cost you a lot more. But when you realize that half your data is already in their cloud and now they get you with the cost of data transfer.
And the governments often have to take this way because of budget constraints.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
More governments are now realizing that they can "self host" and have "national champions" that just copy oracle, or whoever and do their own thing. At least the bigger governments are.
KnowZeroX@reddit
They can use Postgres which is just as good as Oracle and can run oracle plsql. Much cheaper too
The advantage these corporations have is more money which they then use to lobby politicians
UbijcaStalina@reddit
Greenfield projects? Sure, you would have to be idiot to pay for Oracle, unless you really need some their specific feature and it cannot be worked around any other way.
Things are a bit different in 15 years old large enterprise system with crazy mess of PL/SQL
DrPiwi@reddit
we are now researching if it is feasable to transfer our database to pgsql. In theory that should be possible, but in practice it is a big change and it will take time and a lot of effort to switch after 20 years+ use of oracle.
tuvoksnightmare@reddit
Because FOSS doesn’t say "well from next year on everything is in our cloud and it’s a subscription”.
654354365476435@reddit
Thats why contracts are for, goverment is not average Joe, goverment can fuck MS way more then MS can goverment.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Ah yes because Microsoft cares about contracts when it pulls support on behalf of US sanctions or politics.
tuvoksnightmare@reddit
Only if there’s a competition and the government can choose another software provider. Hence the need for open source and competition.
mbitsnbites@reddit
The kind of contracts that you really want will never be accepted by MS. E.g. eternal support for current products and guarantees that the company never goes out of business, as well as full public insight into the cloud infrastructure.
BeardedCockwomble@reddit
Some governments can, not all.
Many smaller and developing nations are regularly screwed over by Big Tech because of the power imbalance at play.
For instance, Microsoft's annual revenue is almost as much as my entire nation's GDP and I'm from New Zealand. Imagine just how much governments that aren't in the Anglosphere are screwed over.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
More like
"Oh look the US doesn't like us anymore and as a result Microsoft is pulling support for Windows. Guess we're screwed".
This is the biggest factor for countries switching
conan--aquilonian@reddit
No reliance on potentially unreliable suppliers tied to a certain country/company.
Say if US stops liking your country anymore and Microsoft decides to pull support for windows. Have fun lol
Glum_Sport5699@reddit
No reliance on proprietary systems and file formats. If a company folds, and their file formats are not open, it may become impossible to open those files in the future. With FOSS there is no vendor lock in, so programs and file formats can be developed internally.
Alexander_Selkirk@reddit
I have a LaTeX file on my computer, written in Spanish, which I created at university for documenting a device. I converted it to UTF8 and can still compile and print it, or convert it to PDF. It is now 30 years old. It took a while for me that this kind of longevity is something very desirable.
Preeng@reddit
I have a small CNC machine. The software for it is very old. Doesn't work on newer PCs.
The software for actually creating the models and tool paths is constantly updated to the new version and won't run on my old computer.
I now need 2 computers and a way to transfer files easily.
Prometheus720@reddit
You might want to look into virtual machines.
Preeng@reddit
I've never used a virtual machine to connect to something before. Can it just use the USB ports of the host machine?
EarlMarshal@reddit
That's the only argument which got me into learning latex in the first place. I thought "what? Learning a while DSL just to create something which I can do in word?". Since I know Markdown and Latex I never created one word document. The only thing I may learn is Typst.
Glum_Sport5699@reddit
How useful is latex in a modern sense, given the open file formats that exist now? I'm interested if I should learn it
ukezi@reddit
Depends what you are doing. LaTeX is very dominant in the academic papers field, at least in STEM fields.
Glum_Sport5699@reddit
I'm a software engineer. I was thinking for design documentation etc.
gtarget@reddit
It’s probably overkill for that. LaTeX is best when creating standard documents that you’d usually distribute as PDFs. It has a lot of features, but the initial set up of fonts, formats, style, and packages can take a good bit of time.
goldbloodedinthe404@reddit
Not anymore just have chatgpt set it up for you. It is very very very good at latex
Alexander_Selkirk@reddit
Sphinx might be an alternative for screen content. Also, racket's scribble markup language is good. LaTeX is unmatched for typesetting printed stuff.
Glum_Sport5699@reddit
I'm using Doxygen for code referencing at present
yvrelna@reddit
Design documentation, etc I think the modern way to do this is to either use Markdown/ReStructuredText or some sort of wiki like confluence/mediawiki/GitHub wiki.
stejoo@reddit
Asciidoctor is great for that purpose. If you know Markdown you already know enough to het started. And it's all nicely documented to get much more out of it.
frankev@reddit
Alas, in the humanities it's typically MS Word, though Google Docs is making some inroads.
As late as 2013, we had a dissertation secretary at our institution using WordPerfect to the bitter end. After she retired that was the last of that program's existence in our environment. And I remember cutting my teeth on WordPerfect 5.0 (for DOS) during my undergrad days in the early 1990s.
LibreOffice does most things well most of the time. My goal is to only fire up MS Word when needed for editing theses and dissertations for my students.
dragozir@reddit
I took all of my math notes in LaTeX in college from junior year onward. The first 2 weeks were kind of a slog but it was my professor (whose class I failed freshman year) who introduced me to it and encouraged me. I had vim on one half of the screen, auto compile on save and a pdf viewer on the left. I was taking all my notes and doing my homework assignments in it very quickly, and while printing was annoying, at the end of each semester I effectively had my own mini textbook to study from. I don't use it often anymore, but if I ever needed to do some typesetting again, I wouldn't hesitate. Everything for me nowadays is markdown though.
Alexander_Selkirk@reddit
It is super efficient for writing small formal letters, and for writing all kinds of technical documentation in a proper style. Leslie Lamports LaTeX handbook is itself a gem of good technical writing.
mbitsnbites@reddit
LaTeX continues to be very popular despite its ancient roots - because it obviously solves many problems.
One of the great things about LaTeX is that it properly separates content from format. You usually do not have to care one bit about formatting, the result will always look great.
Since LaTeX is text based, it's MUCH more suitable for version control than Word (e.g. using Git), and it's also possible to "modularize" a document (have different chapters in different files etc), and even auto-generate parts of the document (e.g. pull data from a database using a Python script and generate LaTeX chapters etc). No more manual copy-paste:ing and updating your document when a source has changed - it's all done automatically in a single "build document" step.
I love LaTeX for "proper" manuals and long-lived documents.
E.g. I have a ~200 pages manual for a CPU architecture that is written in LaTeX: MRISC32 Instruction Set Manual. Some chapters are written by hand, but most of the pages are generated by Python scripts, and I can not even start to imagine the horrors of maintaining a document like that in Word.
Middle-Silver-8637@reddit
This is not true from my experience working with images. I always had to fuss with page breaks to not end up with a page with only a single image. It's truly a pain.
Tables are also not trivial if you want them to contain many columns and/or rows.
mbitsnbites@reddit
That's why I wrote "usually". The first thing is that you have to unlearn how you think about formatting, and it can be frustrating at first, but once you get over that you have a few corner cases left, like the ones you mentioned.
In my experience you get into trouble when you have non-text entities (tables, images, ...) that are larger than one page. It can be frustrating, but I think that it's mostly because with LaTeX you are used to not having to deal with formatting, so when you do it's both annoying and not really intuitive.
Yorha-with-a-pearl@reddit
LaTeX stuff just looks better without that much of work. Would definitely invest some time to learn it. My old college professors loved my essays and presentations.
HakierGrzonzo@reddit
I use LaTeX for most of my documents, for me a major advantage is the ability to have a template that you made across may previous documents, that you copy paste, that allows you to have nice looking documents at low effort.
If you like programming then preparing various documents for your burocracy a fun challenge. Also including source code in your documents with syntax highlighting is a breeze with pygments.
Look as well into stuff like beamer+LaTeX+markdown+pandoc, since it makes preparing presentations that look well a breeze.
henry1679@reddit
ODF works well too!
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
LaTex is all fun and until the client wants an editable copy.
Windows_10-Chan@reddit
I started using a lot more rmarkdown lately because of how many output options it has, including a docx one.
breid7718@reddit
Well, to be fair - I can still open a Word doc from 30 years ago in O365.
henrebotha@reddit
That file is old enough that many storage media would have decayed beyond saving by now.
juwisan@reddit
This isn’t exactly an argument against using e.g. Microsoft Office though as the file formats are technically open and this is the case for many other file formats used by government agencies or in intergovernmental data exchange. There is a shitton of XML Schema out there for these formats. If they are really old like data formats used for tax processing, you can be pretty sure governments own these because they created them 50 years ago. Therefor generally speaking data formats are not really that critical.
Tools are though. Complex data formats often require equally complex tools to properly interact with the data, so if you’re stuck with a proprietary tool to work on open data you’re still screwed if the toolmaker goes bust.
KnowZeroX@reddit
It most definitely is an argument against them. Part of the problem is the DOCX format which the EU foolishly accepted. Because in reality there are 2 DOCX formats, the undocumented one (The one office saves by default), and the "open standard one" which you have to go out of your way to save which MS neglects. And I will guarantee you that most government workers save in the undocumented docx without knowing, or even if they do know they notice something break on the open standard one and switch to the undocumented one
This is why you can't trust these companies
ramennoodle@reddit
They are terrible standards (e.g. format tags that are documented as "format this like version X of Word did"). And Microsoft has never actually fully implemented the strict standard. The files office writes don't quite conform to Microsoft's standard.
linmanfu@reddit
The word "technically" is doing a lot of work there.
Glum_Sport5699@reddit
Yes, precisely
TAMiiNATOR@reddit
Yeah but important customers like this ensure that companies like Microsoft don't go extinct. It makes sense in theory but in practice this situation would not happen because there is a lot of revenue on the table. Unfortunately.
Patient_Sink@reddit
Not extinct, but they can still choose to retire software without providing an alternative: https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/office/microsoft-publisher-will-no-longer-be-supported-after-october-2026-ee6302a2-4bc7-4841-babf-8e9be3acbfd7
We still have a lot of old publisher files in our department at our municipality that will have to be converted or remade. I've been remaking the ones we need in word as I go.
There are a lot of online converters, but they seem to mainly convert to pdf, and I don't know the quality of those, nor do I think management would be happy if I started to upload all publisher documents on a random website (even afaict they're mostly used for creating signs or posters).
TAMiiNATOR@reddit
Yeah I guess the flaw in my argument is that it still has to be profitable enough for the company to maintain their product even in comparison to other products they have.
Glum_Sport5699@reddit
There's no guarantee that these companies would continue to support their software or file formats indefinitely. Companies can and do kill backwards compatibility when it becomes too difficult to maintain. There are plenty of old technologies that no longer exist. Many large companies have folded in the past. Using open standards and FOSS safeguards against that.
spikbebis@reddit
And be used. We have problems now with old MS Office documents that cant be opened by MS , libreoffice just chugs away. (not that LO is an amazing production as it is)
ffsletmein222@reddit
People have already answered but I want to add this video.
654354365476435@reddit
Great video thanks
reddit-MT@reddit
Citizens shouldn't have to pay the Microsoft tax to access documents produced by the government or submit information to the government. The US government often releases information in proprietary formats or requires requests to be submitted in proprietary formats.
There's also a large vendor lock-in with proprietary systems that ends up costing the government because it can be difficult or nearly impossible to get data out of such formats. Converts between formats work on simple cases but often fail on large or complex documents.
654354365476435@reddit
Microsoft dont offer the same thing but you need to pay. Open source solutions are way behind this. Its open questions if goverment needs all of this but there is good reason why biggest corporation pay Microsoft bilions, and this reason is not 'I cant open excel file in libre' as most of the time it works fine.
reddit-MT@reddit
The problem is that Microsoft intentionally makes it difficult for 3rd party application to work with their formats. Governments may find value with MS but they should require open formats and interoperability that actually works.
654354365476435@reddit
I agree with that, I'm just getting a vibe here that ppl dont see how much value MS brings into big organizations. FOSS needs a lot of development to reach what MS already have.
reddit-MT@reddit
But when you ask why FOSS hasn't caught up to MS, a lot of the answer is that they intentionally blocked interoperability, spread FUD and misused market dominance. They didn't get there purely by merit.
Synthetic451@reddit
2.) FOSS always has a focus on interoperability instead of vendor lock-in.
3.) Auditability. Being able to audit your infrastructure at a source-code level is important. The recent xz backdoor proves that.
blahaj-hugger@reddit
A company could just spy on a government the same way you are spied on over social media platforms etc.
ButtBlock@reddit
But what if they pinky swear not to spy? We should be good, right?
Classic_Department42@reddit
Also back door auditing.
PiRX_lv@reddit
Didn't they do it like... 20 years ago already? I mean Germany moving to Linux/FOSS? I remember it being a big talking point for anti-Microsoft crowd.
Stromford_McSwiggle@reddit
Germany didn't move to anything, not 20 years ago and not now. It was one city 20 years ago (Munich) and one state now (Schleswig-Holstein).
mbitsnbites@reddit
Yes. München moved to Linux. Though after heavy lobbying from Microsoft they switched back to Windows.
...and now they are back on track to switch to open-source again.
pdp10@reddit
Munich never actually migrated anything from Linux. All of the articles from 2014 were about the new mayor and vice-mayor talking about what they wanted to do.
tradinghumble@reddit
Smart ! Took Microsoft $$ to prepare for next migration attempt
UbijcaStalina@reddit
Or lobbying of consulting companies . Imagine getting shitload of money … three times.
BuhlewnMindState@reddit
yup. It failed miserably in 2004. But 2024 is they year of the linux desktop. Again. Apparently.
notonyanellymate@reddit
There are many morr devices running Linux based operating systems today than Windows!
BradChesney79@reddit
Round 2, FIGHT!
...Hey, third time is the charm.
I'll keep my eyes open for the switch back to Winblows. Then again for 3rd flop and Linux for keeps.
Electrical-Ad5881@reddit
Democratic governments are nor based on open sources but on accountability and open source is vastly used and abused by predatory firms such Apple, Microsoft, Google...
mbitsnbites@reddit
That's a very strange statement. Something does not automatically follow democratic principles just because it's practiced by a democratically elected government. You are right, but that does not make the practice right, nor democratic. The whole point is that using tax money to feed a monopoly and renting infrastructure from a foreign company for storing sensitive information about citizens etc is a practice that should not be acceptable in any democracy.
Dynsks@reddit
Impossible, the German politicians have no idea about technology, only about Lobbyism. The Gesundheitsminister (Minister of Health) want a e centralized system where all the medical records get stored. They has fired all the people who was responsible for the security because they had made it only more difficult. Plus, they have even passed a decision on the Grundgesetz (Basic Law) with a special rule so that this is possible.
metux-its@reddit
The toothfairy is a gates puppet.
Tuxhorn@reddit
The German IT infrastructure is truly decades behind, but this is a good decision nonetheless.
tradinghumble@reddit
Well if it’s decades behind with Windows than it shouldn’t be a problem with Linux
srekkas@reddit
Lithuania have it already for a good bit of time. Heard in Germany letters is still a big thing.
Schrankwand83@reddit
Bet they switch to Linux because hardware is not Win11-ready :)
rileyrgham@reddit
The German health minister, Lauterbach is allegedly a pot head lunatic. Certainly during COVID, he proved he didn't have a clue and , like Biden, predicted a winter of death if we didn't all continue taking "boosters" as he continued to push ridiculous mandates as the rest of the world woke up. Of course there was no such outcome. Most know now he's simply crazy and/or incompetent and got drunk on power.
ClubbyTheCub@reddit
Germany too. This is just one german federal state doing this so far..
disastervariation@reddit
I agree it makes perfect sense to go with FLOSS, even if its tough to drive adoption in the short term.
It always felt odd to me that governments all around the world function solely thanks to a single for profit company. Its just a massive concentration risk.
Brufar_308@reddit
Also the plot for a book ‘Pearl Harbor dot com’
two_bananas_guy@reddit
Just 2 more development cycles, and we'll be able to apply for a visa through Blender 🙏 With real time path tracing
M3n747@reddit
I wouldn't be too surprised if somebody was implementing that into Emacs right now. ;)
toybits@reddit
I'm Australian/British and worked in Frankfurt for 3 years for Commerzbank. Your line...
This is very much how my German co-workers though too we had many conversations like this. Much more than my British co-workers.
rohmish@reddit
and Adobe
drfusterenstein@reddit
If only the UK would follow
conan--aquilonian@reddit
UK is too much in bed with the US, so unlikely
notonyanellymate@reddit
All "5 eyes" countries are hook line and sinker in bed with Microsoft.
notonyanellymate@reddit
If only.
nautilacea@reddit
Let’s just hope it works out better than when Munich did it. Iirc they had to switch back to windows, eventually, though I’m not certain why.
notonyanellymate@reddit
people keep repeating this, like a FUD talking point.
Microsoft moved their head quarters there, they also discounted the software, so they made millions and also saved millions in licensing, more companies should make the change, if only at worse to get better deals.
hugthispanda@reddit
The Singapore Army moved from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice in 2004, then LibreOffice after the Oracle rebranding, and eventually switched back to Microsoft Office in 2015.
Schlonzig@reddit
Microsoft will give Office away for free if it means quashing OpenSource competition in its infancy.
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
they already do. if you run a school, you can get o365+teams+few other things either for free or at a significant bargain.
i would assume they somehow monetize it down the road. maybe they lock you in after a few years when you cannot migrate away.
Schlonzig@reddit
Try rolling out an alternative when all your users are exclusively accustomed to Office.
notonyanellymate@reddit
It's not hard to use a different word processor or spreadsheet program, I've migrated enterprises successfully. Your users would have to be pretty thick if they struggled.
UbijcaStalina@reddit
Which shows that MS Office alternatives can only compete on price. The moment MS price matches, users run back
guptaxpn@reddit
why is my only question. What's wrong with libreoffice?
I very rarely use office suites myself.
Caultor@reddit
My honest reaction yes! Yes! fuck!
rocketstopya@reddit
Hopefully the kernel and the LibreOffice will get some new features, fixes from this project
SyrioForel@reddit
LivreOffice has fallen so far behind Microsoft and Google, I can’t imagine how it can possibly keep up. There are standard everyday features like real-time co-authoring that don’t even exist in LibreOffice, it’s like a time capsule from a bygone era.
Cry_Wolff@reddit
LO is like GIMP, I'm glad it exists but I refuse to use it. Early 2000s vibe.
SyrioForel@reddit
It doesn’t help that maintainers of these projects are constantly at war with users who beg for modern features. The people who actually work on these projects don’t care about those features, so the common response to user feedback is usually some combination of “no” or “go do it yourself”.
The people tasked with setting the vision and the priorities of these projects are completely out of touch. Sure, there is the fact that they don’t have the funding to pay developers and all those regular issues faced by open source projects, but also a bigger problem is that lack of vision, prioritizing the wrong things, arguing with users, etc.
notonyanellymate@reddit
Nahh, it is stable, open and well planned, here is a pretty example of how well it has been planned and engineered over the last decade: https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/libreoffice-technology/
snyone@reddit
maybe this would help?
https://help.libreoffice.org/master/en-US/text/shared/guide/usingthemes.html
I think the issue w GIMP for most people is the learning curve, not the way it looks. TBF, for most people who want something more in line with Paint dot net, GIMP is probably a bit harder. I usually recommend
pinta
for folks looking for something like that.Anyway, hopefully, if more people start using (and theoretically donating time/PRs/money to ) LO, then it will continue to improve.
TheByzantineRum@reddit
Yeah LibreOffice is a relic, it simply won't compare. They would have to implement that Libadwaita UI that was being made just for it to be atleast bearable
notonyanellymate@reddit
They do compare, see a comparison very close.
alerighi@reddit
So you are telling me that you put possibly private and very sensitive documents on a cloud controlled by a foreign company on servers that possibly are even outside the EU? I don't think so... that would be a big violation.
You see the problem? You can't use these features. With LibreOffice, or other open systems, a government can self-host the required services without leveraging on a cloud of a foreign company that doesn't follow the same data security requirements.
You add the possibility to have these features! By the way, I don't think LibreOffice it's the good choice (I would have chosen OnlyOffice, that has the collaborative features you mentioned) but everything is better than using Office or other proprietary services.
To these days having the control over your data is the most important thing, especially for a government. Also depending on a foreign company these days of politically instability (you see, things that were certain yesterday may not hold in the future) to me is not a good idea.
SyrioForel@reddit
What you say may be true in edge cases.
A similar example is that the United States nuclear command and control systems relied on 1970s computers and 8-inch floppy disks as recently as 2019, before they were finally modernized.
However, I will repeat that those are edge cases. I don’t think your example qualifies.
Nearly every business and government agency across the planet uses proprietary office software (whether Microsoft’s or Google’s) because there is no viable open source alternative to do modern office work. Despite your proclamations, LibreOffice is at best a good software package for home desktop users and small businesses, but certainly nothing above that.
However, as I already conceded, there are edge cases. For example, your government certainly is not going to host classified military secrets on remote server farms on the other side of the world. Obviously they won’t do that. On the other hand, a different agency within your government that does not deal in military secrets may be more willing to set up a contract with a commercial software contractor to facilitate office work.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Many governments are now beginning to invest heavily into their own office software that works on windows, linux, freebsd
For China its the WPS office suite For Russia its myoffice/r7office/onlyoffice For India its TrulyOffice
etc etc
Alot of these solutions are still "early" and lacking in features, but will get there with time
alerighi@reddit
There is. I personally use OnlyOffice, and works fairly well. It has all the features of Google Docs, can be self-hosted on your servers, if you want (I don't, I use it from a cloud provider), meaning that you retain full control over your data.
Yes, it's true that Office has a ton of sophisticated features (such as the possibility to write code in them, or to make queries directly to databases), but in reality how many people uses that? And when it's used, are we sure that having an Excel sheet that makes queries to databases is a good idea? To me no, it's a terrible hack that is necessary because the system lacks of a data export feature.
Finally, you say that LibreOffice doesn't have the features of Office, that is true. But what features users are really using? I mean, the average public employee, that is not a genius, but someone that has to do something in the 8 hours he is in the office, what % of Office features knows how to use it? If he knows how to turn on a computer and write a Word document is well, an expert.
I don't know in the US, maybe you have better public employee, but where I live, we are at the level that to make a PDF of a Word document they print it and scan it!
notonyanellymate@reddit
Sounds like it may be you have fallen behind, there’s LibreOffice Technology with coauthoring, realtime without paragraph locking like Microsoft, more device support than Microsoft for offline apps etc.
SyrioForel@reddit
There is no real-time co-authoring in Calc.
notonyanellymate@reddit
Is that the online version called Collabora Online? Or are you thinking of LibreOffice Calc.
Mds03@reddit
Speak for yourself. I work as a dev/counilor/IT("tech potato") in the government. Half our users will be glad to see real time co-authoring gone. On the IT side, the cloud has been a complete nightmare combined with GDPR. Enterprise WIndows automatically syncs everything on our PCs to Enterprise Onedrive to enable that colaborative cloud tech. Already in the syncing of that, as the data itself crosses country borders to Microsoft. we are probably breaking the law, and unnecesarilly exposing critical user data to the internet. We have somewhere north of 20 000 users right now, enabling these features a decade back is still distrupting us to this day. These features definately make sense somewhere, I used to love them when working in student groups back in college for instance, but it's a completely different setting.
lasercat_pow@reddit
I usually use LibreOffice, but I'm not a power user. I have been though, and the data import tools and excel's commands that practically make a functional programming language have no counterpart in libreoffice sheets. But then, I would just turn to python for that stuff.
irasponsibly@reddit
Conditional formatting is a mess in MS Excel, but LO is somehow so much worse.
sdflkjeroi342@reddit
I wish you were wrong, but it's unfortunately true. I keep attempting to use LO Writer but every time I get past a few pages something basic (like being able to paste images in "as character" anchor mode) breaks from one moment to the next - I've tried multiple versions of LO on Debian, Ubuntu, Manjaro and Windows... guess I'll give up and use Google Docs instead.
Scholastica11@reddit
In Germany, we print our emails and put them into filing cabinets. The lack of real-time co-authoring is not going to disrupt anything.
SyrioForel@reddit
There are so many easy solutions to what you are talking about out that I wouldn’t even know where to begin. You aren’t describing a technology problem, you are describing a management problem and poorly thought-out SOPs.
Scholastica11@reddit
Oh, we do understand modern technologies - we even have an internal wiki (in lieu of a knowledge management system)! But anything you post there is public to the entire organization, so most departments prefer to use shared folders.
On Tuesday, a new coworker needed the shared login for some piece of software (same user/pwd used by \~10 people). So her superior sent her a word document via email containing the usernames and passwords to all the superior's accounts. (We have licensed an e-learning system for cyber security awareness, though. Wouldn't want to be the next British Library.)
Fatal_Taco@reddit
I don't think people get how massive this is. Yes, getting anyone to even use LibreOffice and Linux is one of the larger hurdles, but this is a GERMAN state transitioning to a FOSS environment. It'd usually take the heat death of the universe to get anything done due to the mountain of paperwork required.
It's an astonishingly herculean effort and that deserves a prost.
CORUSC4TE@reddit
I don't have the history at hand, but I believe Munich made the decision to switch nearly a decade ago and faced backlash from the users / lobby and decided to back pedal.
Yes, it is huge and a step in the right direction, but it might turn around as quickly.
OratioFidelis@reddit
The "backlash from users" was mild but heavily amplified by pro-Microsoft media. The one and only reason they moved back to Windows/MS Office is because of Microsoft's intense lobbying.
notonyanellymate@reddit
Microsoft even moved their headquarters to Munich...
kogmaa@reddit
I use both and frankly the only selling point of Microsoft for the average German pencil pusher is the Office suite. Everything else is better in Linux. The slow-ass updates of windows alone are a reason to switch.
But Excel PowerPoint and Word are the holy trinity and unfortunately there is nothing that comes close in Linux for Joe Average. If you can manage to go without Office, Linux is gold.
Prometheus720@reddit
These days the in-browser office suite options are pretty good anyway
kogmaa@reddit
True but once you enter macro territory and interaction with local files you are quickly at the end of the line.
Prometheus720@reddit
You could get around the local thing by backing them up into the drive of choice, but yeah
KnowZeroX@reddit
For the average Joe, LibreOffice is more than plenty. Other than getting used to a few changes, most won't notice a difference
The ones who usually would find a difference are the ones trying to hack Excel into a database replacement
EspritFort@reddit
That is the crux, since somewhere in its deepest bowels every public service institution has one of those essential 60MB multi-tab scripted Excel documents upon which each and every person's function in the building desperately depends.
Tobias created it 20 years ago, has now been in retirement in Italy for 10, and everybody else has only ever been - devoutly and ever so carefully - adding to and editing in versioned copies of the document since nobody knows how to create the original's functionalities from scratch.
kogmaa@reddit
Yeah, true enough. I’m Tobias in my company. At least I push the VBA scripts into a git repo, but the worksheet complexity alone is not for the faint of heart.
I’d be more than willing to set everything up with Django or something but users (including middle and upper management) demand excel, so excel it is.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
yeah even now with Russia's forced transition to linux, there's alot of screeching. so its hard to do, especially when there's no necessity.
schubidubiduba@reddit
Coincidentally the switch back to Windows was a short time after Microsoft moved their headquarters back to Munich.
nhaines@reddit
What a strange and baffling coincidence!
PeterMortensenBlog@reddit
Yes, LiMux:
kulonos@reddit
The more precise story is:
wurst_mann@reddit
It was mainly lobbying which brought MS back. Even Accenture which is know to be an MS Consultancy advised against switching back.
jdrch@reddit
I think people are focusing on the OS shift and not the gigantic, flawless operation required for this to not be a total mess. Gonna be fun times when they lose 30% of users' emails because the backup array they were on got mistakenly wiped, for example.
This is hard enough doing from Windows to Windows, much less between kernel paradigms. Good luck to them.
SV-97@reddit
It's not *that* far out there I'd say. LiMux was a thing already (until corruption happened) and some state institutions (notably the DLR for example) have been using a ton of linux (on desktops) for years.
abbidabbi@reddit
I recommend reading this 2019 interview with the former mayor of Munich who introduced LiMux with his party in the early 2010s (use a translator like DeepL or so if you don't speak German):
https://www.golem.de/news/von-microsoft-zu-linux-und-zurueck-es-gab-bei-limux-keine-unloesbaren-probleme-1911-144917.html
Excerpt of the part where he talks about Microsoft's attempts to turn them back to using their products:
Ill_Razzmatazz_1202@reddit
Yea.. Munich is an international it stronghold and I'm the queen of England.
xxspex@reddit
Google and Microsoft are there, Google does plenty of development there, no idea about MS but wouldn't be surprised.
JumpyCucumber899@reddit
And who can forget the North Korean Linux OS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
Ouity@reddit
Amazing
Nictrical@reddit
Yeah, and french Gendarmerie with GendBuntu. Does anybody knows if they still use it? Latest release was 2019...
ManufacturerRich2220@reddit
Still in use as of today. Worked with them recently
Nictrical@reddit
Ouh, nice! Thanks for the info.
YoureWrongBro911@reddit
Schleswig-Holstein has less people than Berlin. It's pretty much as rural as you can get in Germany.
StatementOwn4896@reddit
Holy cow I didn’t realize it was less populated than Rheinland pfalz
rescue_inhaler_4life@reddit
The current foundation of Germany beauracracy is paper and stamps. Please note I said current. I have met many beauracrates in my travels of starting a business here who do not even have a computer on their desk.
My SIL works outside of a city in the courts, they still use filling systems with dedicated staff, rooms and lookup cards to find the files. They get trained on this system, in 2024.
So positive step but hell will freeze over before they throw away their stamps. Absolutely worth a prost either way! 🍻
Pay08@reddit
Now I'm really tempted to ping Prost lol.
JonnyRocks@reddit
this hapoens all the time. i am not sure how old you are but european governments have switched before and then switch back to Microsoft.
Familiar_Ad_8919@reddit
the real question is why didnt other much less bureaucratic states take the steps in this direction already
justsomeguy325@reddit
It really is. Just to give people an understanding of how difficult this is. I work IT for a city in northern Germany and whenever we try to make changes there's a variety of colleagues who simply refuse to adapt. We introduced iPads into schools and some colleagues refused to work with them because it didn't say so in their contracts. They can't be forced to do the work but they also can't be fired. It's infuriating. Sometimes you have to force change like this anyway.
astroshiba67@reddit
this is another step to everyone switch to Linux
Teh___phoENIX@reddit
To my knowledge the developer organization is based in Berlin, Germany
fadsoftoday@reddit
We've been here before. Didn't work out so well if i recall correctly
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
If you're referring to LiMux in Munich, that was a long, long time ago – a lot has changed since then. And many would argue that LiMux didn't succeed for political reasons, rather than technical: https://itsfoss.com/munich-linux-failure/
goingsplit@reddit
isn’t germany still US’s bitch? they nuked nord stream, they can make the public administration revert to M$ spyware as well.
fadsoftoday@reddit
How confident are you that history won't repeat itself. Human don't change.
AndersLund@reddit
You mean like the history repeating in Munich?
Linux not Windows: Why Munich is shifting back from Microsoft to open source – again
fadsoftoday@reddit
Yes. Everything is still the same. Microsoft lobby has never been so powerful and their cloud services are used everywhere.
duane534@reddit
When has Germany made the same mistake twice?
Pos3odon08@reddit
because of heavy Microsoft lobbying, let's just hope it works this time
itouchdennis@reddit
Hope they install arch and some tiling window managers + vim for the people to make the best experience for them
chetankhilosiya1@reddit
Vim will not give best experience to new people joining linux. It is for linux power users.
goingsplit@reddit
for beginners it’s emacs
Accomplished-Sun9107@reddit
Whoosh..
cincuentaanos@reddit
I think that was the joke.
itouchdennis@reddit
Do I really need to add an /s every time I make a joke? I thought it was obv. as arch + tiling window managers and vim aren't that what a user will see when he first touches linux and coming from windows....
Thaurin@reddit
Haha, "normal" users don't even use text editors all that much, if at all.
jdrch@reddit
This is the funniest thing I've read all week.
Skyb@reddit
Productivity about to grind to and halt due to government workers being preoccupied with fine-tuning their vim plugins and ricing their desktops.
itouchdennis@reddit
New subreddit joined - government unix porn
cocoman93@reddit
Don‘t worry, they will move back some time after because libreoffice is still shit
xAlt7x@reddit
You know, they're moving to Linux as well. So there are several options:
goingsplit@reddit
i’m old enough to remember this happened before..
conan--aquilonian@reddit
It's Latvian
xAlt7x@reddit
Please, dig dipper. It's a Russian company masked as Latvian (and now masked as British).
conan--aquilonian@reddit
From your ZDV link. That sentence made no sense. If the company does not pay taxes nor does it have headquarters in Russia, it is not Russian. Just because OnlyOffice has their own version (R7 Office) doesn't make it Russian.
xAlt7x@reddit
Reading you other comment:
I see that you're aware of "OnlyOffice" ties with Russia. Why do you pretend here that it's Latvian?
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Dude, its headquarters are in Latvia. Russia likes to use it, due to what they percieve as "friendly ties" with their neighbors
cocoman93@reddit
I extend my answer then: They will abandon Linux in a couple of years
notonyanellymate@reddit
And save millions in licensing discounts, it is a win win either way.
Skyb@reddit
Munich skipped directly to the fifth option: Accept a bribe from your local Microsoft representative and put the whole project on ice.
Ciachciarachciach139@reddit
Yep, don't get me wrong, I love everything open source but people who claim that for example Calc is superior to Excel never used either for more than A1+B1=2024.04.04.
wanttodoitmyself@reddit
They're definitely gonna save a lot money
creamcolouredDog@reddit
The less vendor lock-in, the better.
meguminsdfc@reddit
Not really, just because something is open-source it doesn't mean it's better than the thing it's trying to replace.
henrebotha@reddit
You are misinterpreting their comment. "The less X, the better" means "X is bad; reducing X reduces badness because X is bad". It doesn't make any claims about how good the product is with respect to Y or Z.
It's like saying, "The less RAM a program requires, the better." It doesn't mean a program using less RAM is overall better than a program using lots of RAM; it just means that all else being equal, you'd rather use less RAM than more.
meguminsdfc@reddit
I see...
Office isn't bad though. I don't think Open Office is a good alternative, it felt weird whenever I used it.
Can LibreOffice and the linux distro of their choice prove an user experience as good as the software and OS they were trying to replace?
Ok_Cardiologist8232@reddit
If you are only doing the basics using office then Linux is simpler and easier to use than Windows at this point.
Gnome DE is especialy super easy to use and is similar in design to Android/iOS so in theory easier to get people used to it than Windows.
The only Libreoffice bit i've used that just seemed worse than Office was Excel.
But then again, i haven't used anything but google sheets in years and thats worse than Excel so i'm notsure how much the difference really matters.
nhaines@reddit
That's because, somehow, there's no spreadsheet that's better than Excel.
Although frankly, since I don't understand pivot tables and don't need pretty (gorgeous, really) charts, once I got used to LibreOffice Calc it's basically as powerful (just slightly more clunky) for me as Excel. Not that I'd be opposed to maybe pulling an ODS file into Excel to screenshot a chart or something.
Objective-Detail-189@reddit
The thing is spreadsheets in general suck ass. Like suck major ass.
Like, okay, if you need static data in tables then text documents are always better. Because they can be edited and transformed by just about any program.
And if you need dynamic data with constraints and whatnot a database is always better. (And no, you don’t need to know how to program to use a DB - secretaries used to do it)
The reason people like excel is because they think it’s the best and it’s what they’ve used. In reality, excel is almost always an awful choice. It’s like a technical debt machine.
Unis_Torvalds@reddit
Calc does pivot tables no problem.
Komatik@reddit
Frankly? No. Linux is competitive and in some ways just better, but LibreOffice is clearly behind at the moment. Same for the most part with Exchange+Outlook vs. Thunderbird+OpenExchange. The point of the effort isn't the user experience, though, it's to set a solid foundation of data sovereignty and cut dependence on a foreign megacorp. The sailing definitely won't be smooth at first, but the effort seems serious and from what I know of the solutions they've chosen, they may not be as good as M365, but they do fulfill their functions.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Libreoffice is the continuation of open office. And as long as they aren't reliant on Excel scripts/macros, they'll be fine.
henrebotha@reddit
Oh I have no idea, I can't remember the last time I used any of the above.
CrueltySquading@reddit
It is better in this case so whatever
Dramatic-Ad7192@reddit
Was thinking this is probably the consequences of being unable to audit the code
franksn@reddit
Important since NIS2 about to come out
Zechariah_B_@reddit
I guess this means Libreoffice is technologically at a point of being a valid true competitor against Microsoft products that work can be done fairly well without Microsoft. No need to use outdated word and spreadsheet relying on obscure maybe insecure company tools. No lock in with improved features and bugfixes, so probably a good choice.
Briggs281707@reddit
Pretty much everyone is gonna hate Linux. Your basic user won't be able to deal with the change and the tech savvy ones will be mad at user limitations
vancha113@reddit
Good news. If this happens more, it could become a vicious circle. If they use open source applications, they could contribute to those applications (assuming they have the budget, manpower and knowledge) and make it in turn easier to use for other people.
That's a more direct control over the ecosystem than it would be to pay microsoft or software vendors to fix things for you, and does not come with the limitation of having "fixes" be beneficial in the monetary sense for the vendors. Everything that makes an app easier to use and adds features that other people would also enjoy would be fair game.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Not if but when. Many (especially large) countries or those with tenuous ties to the US are transitioning to linux.
vancha113@reddit
hmm in that case both russia and china come to mind, I know there's some chinese companies that contribute massively to the linux kernel (e.g: alibaba & huawei). Are there any russian companies doing the same?
I hope this would not just be a case of "we use it because it's free", but slowly a move to a software platform that allows more freedom and control for everyone. I'd love to work on a government project like lumix if that means contributions get forwarded to other linux users. If not, I don't really see the point of having open source software other than for the user personally. I guess it would be a good example of being open source vs being gpl licensed "free" software.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Yes. There were companies like MCST, Basalt SPO, etc that were contributing but linux tried to ban them from submitting patches to the linux kernel.
jdrch@reddit
You'd be surprised how useful this is when you're not in the software development business and don't want to rely on some upstream dev who doesn't care about your use case and it's on your payroll.
mbitsnbites@reddit
Yes, I like the wording they use:
When you think about it - it's a no-brainer. Why on earth should a nation's government put all their data (an by extension all citizens' data) and digital infrastructure in the hands of foreign non-transparent actors?
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
there are already regulations to this end.
some countries explicitly require that personal data of its ciitzens must be stored and processed within the country. now, to which degree they can actually validate and enforce it - no idea.
mbitsnbites@reddit
Yes, but these attempts still miss a lot of key points:
There really is only one solution, and that is open source.
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
doesn't have to be open source. just open data format.
this way when they pull something shady, you can migrate away quickly.
any violations of other rules may be easily detected and fined accordingly.
mbitsnbites@reddit
But how do you know when they do something shady if there's zero transparency? It's not easily detected.
And again, there are many other points. It's basically about owning your data, infrastructure and products. When you're using Microsoft you're really renting instead of owning. It's essentially like if Germany was renting the right to use the Autobahn or their power grid from a foreign company. It's just not reasonable.
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
it's the same with RedHat or other commercially supported distros. some of that is black box tech.
plus they all want you in their cloud anyway.
steamcho1@reddit
Thing is Germany doesnt have energy sovereignty either. What they say and what they do are different things.
mbitsnbites@reddit
I think the analogy here is about ownership, not being completely self-sustaining.
E.g. a country imports and exports energy, but they own their energy infrastructure (power grid etc) and they can buy eneregy from differet actors.
Likewise you will import and export open source software, but you can own your data and digital infrastructure (both hardware and software), and you can hire contractors from different actors.
vancha113@reddit
I wouldn't know :o I have no idea what it takes to make decisions like that. As a free software proponent i just know it can have a positive impact on others that need to use software to do perform their tasks.
Every campaign aimed at getting more people to share their work and help others is a win in my book. Plus it saves money too, cause i know companies work on implementing features in software because it's not available yet, but then never release those features to other companies, which in turn to the same thing. More work on free software means more features, means less money paid for developing said features with your own resources. Win-win no? \^\^
amir_s89@reddit
If and when government agencies starts utilizing these open software programs, their contributions to these various projects could be anything productive. Don't necessarily have to be money. Also, documentations could increase significantly, reports of all kinds with opinions to make the open software programs gradually better over time. With real world usage as reference points.
It becomes a win for all stakeholders. Possibilities to save up huge amount of resources, is doable.
LordOfTheBinge@reddit
virtuous circle
vancha113@reddit
huh?
theAnalyst6@reddit
Based Deutchland
conan--aquilonian@reddit
Deutschland uber alles
code-@reddit
This has been tried by several Norwegian municipalities in the past, and I believe every attempt has for the most part failed. None of the big Norwegian vendors that provide software for HRM, accounting, healthcare and so on support Linux (client or server), so it falls flat already before you get started. The closest we can get (other than vanilla stuff like DNS, DHCP, firewalls etc.) is Linux based thin clients that connect to a Windows environment through Citrix. $$$
These days, vendors have started basically forcing municipalities into "the cloud" - which of course means Microsoft - and rendering the municipalities own data centers less and less relevant.
conan--aquilonian@reddit
For it to work it needs a federal mandate and oversight
jdrch@reddit
Yep. Citrix is gonna make bank off this.
Zearyen@reddit
Maybe im a Pessimist but I think this will bring a lot of trouble for a while.
Ive been working in the IT Sector for quite a while now and ive noticed that even here, if you are not a sysadmin that works with servers or higher, or a programer then even there most have never touched Linux in their life.
Its gonna be tough for supporters and IT people who were focused on Windows to learn the System while also having to support Ulf from HR who will go into retirement in 5 years.
Komatik@reddit
I mean, that's just realism. They'll be switching everything over - Windows to Linux, Office to LibreOffice/Collabora, Exchange+Outlook to Thunderbird+OpenExchange, Teams to something Jitsi based, SharePoint to NextCloud, etc. They'll likely pick a distro that serves Gnome as the default desktop.
It'll be nothing but change for a good while. Can it succeed? Sure. But that requires investment in IT and solid political will to see the project through.
Zearyen@reddit
Thats also where i see a big problem. Investment in IT in Germany? That wont end well. Its not without reason Germany is known to be a third world country Tech/Internet wise
Esava@reddit
But hey Schleswig Holstein is actually one of the better off states in regards to digital infrastructure compared to the rest of Germany. It's still bad but way better than many other german states.
Esava@reddit
The vast majority of government workers use one or at most 2 programs + an email client + a meeting program + maybe a browser. That's it.
No need in most cases to even use a file manager, let alone any feature of an OS that goes deeper than changing the volume and clicking on an icon on the desktop.
mbitsnbites@reddit
It's a major undertaking. It's going to be painful. It's going to take time and tax money. And people will be angry, because they don't like change. That's why MS is so dominant. That's why these projects are so important, and impressive. I could never see this happening in any Swedish municipal for instance, because "meh, sounds like work".
c-pid@reddit
I wonder if this is gonna be such a shitfest as it was in munich.
creamcolouredDog@reddit
Only if they elect a governor who's in bed with Microsoft
Esava@reddit
Just fyi: We don't have governors in Germany.
RC2225@reddit
or the parliament who votes for stuff. the swiss canton of solothurn had linux too, until it was canned in 2010 because it was not cheaper and there were (few loud?) complaints from employees it doesn’t work. Unfortunately before the migration back to Windows it worked quite stable what i heard. Furthermore apparently they started to customize stuff which didn’t help with staying up to date with software releases. The biggest benefit of windows if you need a specialized software you go the local software company and you buy it from the shelf.
alerighi@reddit
It's not cheaper only if politicians look at the price tag, and not at what they get for that price!
To me it must be seen as the difference of buying something or renting it. Of course rent is cheaper, in the short term, but buying is cheaper in the long run, and also buying gives you a stability that renting something doesn't give you, since who owns the thing can make the price higher, or decide to no longer sell it to you for whatever reason, or go bankrupt and disappear (yes, even a big company such as Microsoft can in a period of 10/20 years, who knows?)
With proprietary software you don't own the software, you rent it, you acquire a license that allows you to use the software with a ton of limitations for a period of time and for a purpose. With open source software you own it, you can modify it, study it, copy it, use it for as much time as you want, for whatever purpose as you want, for
If tomorrow Microsoft decides for example to discontinue Office (the local licenses), and decide to only offer you Microsoft 365 (the cloud service, that requires a subscription), what you do? You pay one subscription for each of your employee? If you are a company, you can do that, but as a government, it's not simple, because you are giving to Microsoft data that probably you shouldn't (and for that reason this is forbidden!). And it's not something impossible: Adobe for example already did that!
Now, you either have to convert thousands of Tb of documents in a proprietary format that are not easy to convert to other formats (think, for example, to complex Excel sheets that use macros inside, or make queries to databases, etc), or stick with an outdated and no longer maintained software for the rest of your days, with the risk that if a security vulnerability is discovered nobody will patch it. And given you have no source code, you can't either maintain the software yourself.
Oerthling@reddit
You buy "generic" software from the shelf.
"Specialized" software is written for you.
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
Microsoft will just do their worst to make them use o365 instead. that's their major target platform right now.
c-pid@reddit
No doubt Microsoft will lobby the shit out of this to make it as hard as possible. Besides Microsofts fuckery it is no easy task to adopt so many users to a new OS and new software.
shikkonin@reddit
LiMux was a huge success until the Mayor got screwed by Microsoft
c-pid@reddit
I would see it a bit more greyish, than "huge success". While no doubt Microsoft was lobbying to get the project canceld, the project also faced a lot of hard challenges. It is not easy to train so many employees in the use of a (for them) new OS and new software. This alone caused a lot of frustration within the goverment employees. Also further challenges where software which was developed for windows and was crucial for the functioning of government processes.
alerighi@reddit
Training employees to use Linux is that different, for example, of training employers to use Windows 11 when they where used to Windows 7? Considering that, to ease the transition, Linux can be configured to look as much as similar to Windows.
This is much more of a problem. But these days most software, even government platform, is web based. For software that needs to run on Windows, there are multiple solutions, one of them is to run these programs on Windows VM on a some servers and connect to them with a remote connection (adequately masqueraded to give the illusion that it's a program just any other on the system).
Of course moving to Linux has a cost, let's face it, it's not cheap. But what you get? You get a system that is more solid and robust: just to say, a couple of months ago the major hospital in my city got a ransomware. Result? Days to resolve the issue, in these days appointments were canceled, and everything was done on paper. All of this for a bug in Windows, that was not patched because updating Windows systems it's expensive, because takes time, because old software does not support newest Windows releases. I don't know how much money spent to restore all the computers, but worse than all of these, personal data (that is according to the GDPR in the most critical category of personal data) published on the deep web. How much all of this will cost to you?
On Linux, you have a ton of techniques to mitigate this: have the base OS as an immutable image loaded to RAM, have each software run in an isolated container, have the computer constantly updated and patched (without requiring a reboot), etc. You pay more, but you have more.
EverythingsBroken82@reddit
the employees had a right to be trained, and they WERE trained. but there were many (older) microsoft fans. also with limux they were not the admin of their own pc anymore. previous to limux, they oculd put their private stuff onto there, so they attributed the power-canceling to linux instead of administrational controls
quanten_boris@reddit
Wondering which server and client OS will be used.
mbitsnbites@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1bvilcm/comment/kxzmsbf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
quanten_boris@reddit
\~.\~
I obviously meant the distribution. (Open)SUSE? Ubuntu?
Also it's gonna be a huge learning curve for the local IT-departments. That's not an easy project with 30k clients and who knows how many servers (and which roles).
mbitsnbites@reddit
Obviously...
This report indicates that they have at least looked at Red Hat and SUSE, but I have no idea what it will be.
damodread@reddit
It would only make sense to support local businesses (SUSE being a German company)
Esava@reddit
Headquarters are now in Luxembourg. I can only really assume for tax reasons.
Westdrache@reddit
isn't read hat also pay to use and close source now?
mbitsnbites@reddit
In a way, but not even close to the MS model. AFAIK there's a subscription model (i.e. you have to pay), and the source is only available to customers (I think). However, most of the source code comes from other fully open source distros that Red Hat depends upon (e.g. CentOS and Fedora).
See this discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/14gwqry/just_read_about_red_hat_making_rhel_closedsource/
Pay08@reddit
That's not "in a way", that's explicitly what the GPL says.
KrazyKirby99999@reddit
RHEL is entirely open source, but the only binaries that they publicly distribute are CentOS Stream binaries, so they only need to publicly share the source code for Stream. RH is required to share source code with their customers, but they're also free to end contracts with their customers.
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
SUSE/RHEL usually come up in situations like this, since they have various compliance certifications in place.
Ubuntu might be also a contender, since they follow similar path of certifications.
LordOfTheBinge@reddit
Public money, public code.
The video here https://publiccode.eu/en/ is an excellent summary.
Alles Gute und viel Erfolg nach Schleswig-Holstein!
daninet@reddit
I have briefly read it and while I agree I don't see how it would work. Ok, they would make for example some government app sourcecode public. Maybe the code for some ticketing system. But I think there must be a line what should be public. I would really not be comfortable knowing the central bank software is public or the governmental websites holding everyone's data runs public code. Even if it is a perfect code they will see all the runtime and find a vulnerable 3rd party dependency.
LordOfTheBinge@reddit
This idea that public code might be less secure is often called "security by obscurity".
Feel free to google to read up on it.
NIST explicitly recommends Open Design: "System security should not depend on the secrecy of the implementation or its components" (see here)
I'm not aware of any experts that honestly belief today that open source software is a security risks because the code is available. On the contrary: e.g. implementations of cryptography are consistently regarded as insecure if they are not open sourced to be verified by experts.
Anyway - leaving all that aside:
Software with public code is ubiquitous already. If this would be a significant security risk compared to closed-source solutions the world would look very different.
Some 80% of public servers on the internet are running a Unix-like OS. If open source is a security risk, why is there no-one exploiting the massive amount of vulnerable systems. Where are all the crypto trojans hijacking Amazon, Netflix, Google, Facebook?
Closed source software, too, will use many open source components (hopefully only those with appropriate licenses).
I'm rather sure (and very much hope) that my bank is not using a closed-source implementation of TLS on their websites and webservers.
Long story short: I see your way of thinking and can relate to where that is coming from. However, reality just is not so.
daninet@reddit
This all works in theory. You make a good software with a lot of care on security then you opensource your code. Government projects are not like this. They are usually half-assed job extremely overpriced. Getting it done properly would skyrocket prices even more. The boomer generation ruling the parliments have hardly any interest in changing this. If obscurity helps with the safety on these software then I'm all for it.
mbitsnbites@reddit
The whole point of avoiding security by obscurity is that in practice it has been shown, over and over again, to be much less secure than solutions that are open to public scrutiny.
If government projects have trash quality and security, I'm much more comfortable if it's out in the open than just s big unknown mess. For one thing, it puts pressure on the implementors to do a good job.
LordOfTheBinge@reddit
I think- all things considered - obscuring the code will not help but harm the safety of the software.
I imagine the community would take a lot of interest in software projects developed by governments. A lot of people would look at what they are doing. And not only people: There's automatic code checkers (and increasingly more powerful AI tools for detection of security flaws) that anyone can just run on public repositories.
Recent government Software projects (this comes to mind) have been developed publicly and I think from the perspective of software quality, data safety and user-transparency, this is an example that inspires optimism.
metux-its@reddit
Well, at least dataport somehow managed to set up an k8s cluster. But dont try to dig too deep into fundamental security problems - you wont make many friends by that.
Nico_Weio@reddit
The video is by Alexander Lehmann, so it has to be excellent <3
amir_s89@reddit
Thank you for this link!
Should be considered as first priority at all governmental agencies within EU. This in turn indirectly effects users/ people who are in pursuit of their daily objectives. Enabling opportunities for continues growth and learnings. Software and uncountable valuable solutions could grow forwards organically. Meanwhile, changes could be noticed in communities almost instantly. Magical.
Bookmarked!
lordofthedrones@reddit
Brace yourselves! Deep Microsoft discounts are coming.
jdrch@reddit
LOL off 30K licenses?
Speaking of, I think it's funny they didn't mention any cloud providers.
guptaxpn@reddit
Nope, they're going in on the everything-as-a-SAAS model
Ayaka_Simp_@reddit
So they've chosen death?
lordofthedrones@reddit
As old as time itself.
LeadershipPossible61@reddit
and headquarters
snyone@reddit
Just need to have multiple large cities in the same region all switch to linux at the same time. I'm pretty curious what they would do then... multiple HQs for the same region/country? lol
jdrch@reddit
Before I start: I run Debian, Raspberry Pi OS, Fedora, and Tumbleweed on their own machines.
One of the main reasons for buying Microsoft is you have someone to yell at/blame when something inevitably goes wrong.
However, from reading the original announcement it seems they're either just announcing their intent to migrate - with no solid plans yet - or they're about to drive their entire IT system off a cliff.
My comments below are based on Firefox translation:
OK. Works if you think of Office as solely a productivity suite, which hasn't been the case for most of the past decade.
That's switching kernels ... no mention of distro?
Ah, it took them 3 bullet points in to mention the most important part of this announcement: a vendor. Oh wait, that vendor is responsible for only 1 small part of the migration ... anyway let's read on.
"Conception?" Hopefully this isn't a mistranslation and they actually know what they're moving to. Then again, they haven't even settled on a distro ...
Word soup.
Holy shit. "Development?" As in, they don't know what they're moving to for something as basic as phones?
eanat@reddit
LO is very easy to use if you know how to write documents systematically, like using styles. But if you want to edit your document with many custom formats, you probably want to use MSO because your documents would be looking horrible with other office suits.
ColdBeer_6@reddit
bad guess hahaha. Always expect the lowest and easiest possibility. 55 year old Ulrike from the reception asks: where is my outlook and my contacts? You need to use thunderbird now! What bird?
Komatik@reddit
I wonder what distro and DE they'll be going with. (eh, who am I kidding, the Germans are getting gnomed)
ArdiMaster@reddit
Glances at folder full of macro-infested Word templates that replaced paper forms
sure...
MrTuKer@reddit
MS will retaliate and make any software unstable (Making it look like it is a Linux issue) but this will make they use nothing MS which will be the best direction in the end. This is so Scifi its unreal, its like Star Wars between the Evil Empire and the Jedi - So I wish the German state wins against MS but it will be an uphill struggle - Long live FOSS :)
Electrical-Ad5881@reddit
Ha..years ago the city of Munich did it..before going back to Windows...(starting in 2004).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
I can imagine the huge amount of money make by consulting firms in the middle....not mentionning the tax payers...it is useless and much more productive to go for web based and cloud organization.
DummeStudentin@reddit
The city of Munich did the same thing a while ago, but then they went back to Microsoft because public sector employees were confused by the new system (they didn't receive any training).
Let's hope they do a better job in SH.
pikecat@reddit
Long overdue. No government should be using an OS made in another country. Open source solves that issue.
killersteak@reddit
Is LibreOffice up to the task? I can't even figure out how to make it make a chart that Google Sheets can create for me in 2 clicks.
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
They've done an extensive pilot project over two years, so yes. Hundreds of thousands of people in governments use LibreOffice every day for their work too.
ewanpols@reddit
Great. I hope this starts to become a thing in education too. Microsofts monopoly has lasted long enough.
J_k_r_@reddit
Well, let's see if this lasts past Wednesday.
Taranpula@reddit
Good for them, but I have to disagree with the idea that switching to Linux should be about cutting expenses. If the world's third largest economy is switching to Linux they should not profit off the backs of thousands of unpaid volunteers from around the world. They should be expected to either contribute themselves or provide funding for organizations that maintain free software. People contributing regularly to free software, especially widely used and distributed software should be at the very least able to make a decent living off of their work.
lalanalahilara@reddit
Linux is not made by unpaid volunteers. I’ll never understand where some people got this from.
guptaxpn@reddit
Agreed, organizations need to start paying for FOSS maintainers. Also FOSS maintainers need to stop worrying about providing organization like Microsoft with free development. I saw a snarky bug report that mentions it's critical to Microsoft's services. They haven't donated or purchased a support contract. (FFMPEG)
knobbysideup@reddit
There's much more to expenses than the cost of the software. More important is the overhead to maintain and support it. This likely had more to do with the switch than the cost of licensing itself. It's a better product for them.
DeliciousIncident@reddit
Wait, again? Last time they did that, they moved back to Microsoft. Now back to Linux? They sure can't decide.
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
Er no, you're thinking of a completely different project (LiMux), over a decade ago, in a completely different part of Germany...
Ovnuniarchos@reddit
¿Again?
Can't remember the article, but it's been done before (not necessarily this state), and they backpedalled in less than three months.
Try to make it last a bit longer, plz.
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
If you're talking about LiMux in Munich, they decided to switch back to Microsoft after 10 years (not three months!) and for mainly political reasons. Karl-Heinz Schneider (the head of IT services) said at the time: "We are not aware of any large technical problems with LiMux and LibreOffice ... We don't see any urgent technical reasons to return to Windows and Microsoft Office".
Ovnuniarchos@reddit
Thanks for the point about the time it took for them to return to the Bo… Microsoft. It's been quite some time since I read that.
bullpup1337@reddit
Again? I thought they already tried that many years ago
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
No, they didn't. There was LiMux, a local effort in Munich, which largely failed for political reasons.
FalconDriver85@reddit
Sorry, I don’t care if it’s FOSS or not. This is taxpayer money and when doing comparison between alternatives, features/euro is still the default. I can (and in fact, I do) use Linux and LibreOffice on my own computer, but at enterprise scale, which FOSS software combination gives the same features as Office + Exchange (be it in cloud or on prem) + SharePoint? There are a number of features which are required for GDPR/ITIL/whatever compliance with requirements I always struggle to even understand where they begins and where they ends.
Yeah, sure, it’s easy to just slap a RHEL or a SLES on a client and say “now use LibreOffice”… and then what?
Linguistic-mystic@reddit
M$ Office and Sharepoint are not features, they are misfeatures. Getting rid of them will boost people’s productivity. I’ve used Office for years and hate it with a passion, such a timewaste it was.
FalconDriver85@reddit
Of course… it’s much better to deal with files locked by a user which maybe is on leave, on some obscure network share, rather than on a platform that allows collaborative multi editing with built-in versioning, right?
And I’m not talking about Office + SharePoint.
Google Docs/Sheets + Drive are an alternative, a good one, but they’re not FOSS either.
Skyb@reddit
German government agencies are slowly warming up to the idea of allowing the use of E-Mail for submitting documents. It's still very limited of course as the technology is still quite new and untested, and every household has a perfectly working fax machine.
Somehow I don't think the majority of people working for these agencies have been making much use of any "advanced" features. They just need something to be able to fill out some letter templates and they're happy (provided said letter is sent out using ink on a piece of paper).
tradinghumble@reddit
This will crack the Windows foundation for GOOD
Moehrenstein@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
And so it begins again...
mbitsnbites@reddit
Linux has matured alot in the last decade alone, and you can only hope that digital competency and awareness has increased since then. The debate in the last few years about not relying on foreign tech is also very present. So it's not given that it will play out the same way this time, IMO.
UbijcaStalina@reddit
Yeah, but competition advanced a lot as well. LibreOffice is not even in the same league as MS Office and distance is even larger than it was 10 years ago.
Also state administration needs quite a bit more than just an operating system and Office package. They need software for HR, accounting, taxes, various specialist stuff for specific departments. Some of it might be web based, but others would be windows only.
mbitsnbites@reddit
Sure, LibreOffice is not perfect, and it's a bit sad that it has not improved more over the years. Maybe more government use is the push it needs? There's a similar situation with Gimp IMO (ancient design, laggign seriously both technically and from a UX perspective).
OTOH I believe that most administrative tools are moving (or have already moved) to the Web. If not, there's almost certainly a Web alternative for any non-Web administrative tool (obviously, if you have custom built Windows tools, they would have to be migrated).
Also, this project does not appear to be a rushed switch. They have been planning it for several years, and moving to LibreOffice is the first step of many (and they did have a successful evaluation period IIUIC).
Moehrenstein@reddit
Dude, it worked well for munich and was shut down because of political reasons.
mbitsnbites@reddit
Dude, that's why I pointed out that the political situation has changed.
Moehrenstein@reddit
Like the first time they switched from windows to linux before switchting back under horrendus costs and without any reason.
THAT's why i pointed out "and so it begins again".
sosloow@reddit
Linux is in a great place right now, with waylands, modern DEs, great default gnome/KDE apps.
Libre office on the other hand... It's buggy, antiquated and missing a ton of features. Maybe adoption on such a scale can motivate its development, but if German govt is going to use it as it is, it's not going to end well.
AndersLund@reddit
Not just again... Again-again
LadderOfChaos@reddit
30000 pcs, 100$ for windows and 100$ a year for Microsoft 365 is pretty good sum :)
EatableNutcase@reddit
Let's hope they're willing to spend some money on the LO interface so it gets a bit more modern and up to current standards. I'm not talking about the Office "Lint", which I can't get used to, but if people prefer that, then that's fine too. Anything that makes LO more usable is fine.
Oh btw, LO on the Mac is a hog. It's like you suddenly are working on an ancient machine, so slow.
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
What do you mean by "a bit more modern and up to current standards" for the UI?
If you have an Apple Silicon Mac, are you definitely running the native Apple Silicon build?
EatableNutcase@reddit
OK I was wrong. I was running the Intel version, hadn't updated in quite a while. I updated to silicon and that works fine. Then I dived into the settings and changed the icon theme, and that made a big difference. In the past the dark theme was horrible and I see that is improved a lot.
AlzHeimer1963@reddit
to be a bit nitpicking ... it actualy is:
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/
and part of a broader project "Soveräner Arbeitsplatz" and based on "dataport"s sw package phoenix Suite
srekkas@reddit
It is even good for environment. They can keep.computers for a bit.longer. Even more relevant with Windows 11 CPU requirments.
taz-nz@reddit
By the time Windows 10 goes end of life on 14 October 2025 (ignoring paid extended security support), the best unsupported CPUs will be almost 9 years old, being the Core i7 7700K released on 7 January 2017, and the Ryzen 7 1800X released on 2 March 2017.
Comparing these CPUs to the current gen base model i3 14100, the i3 is in the region of 50% faster than the legacy i7, whereas the Ryzen 7 manages to outperform the model i3 by a mere 5% despite having double the number of cores and threads, both legacy CPU use a lot more power than the modern i3 to get the same job done. (based on synthetic benchmarks)
Most large organizations work on a replacement cycle 3-5 years for computer, be it for compliance, performance, warranty support, or to avoiding costly down time from aging hardware, I very much doubt any sysadmin for a government department is going to keep hardware around for anywhere near 9 years.
My work, buys, reconditions and sells tens of thousands of used business desktop and laptops a year, on systems that old we can only offer a 3-months warranty, whereas systems only a year or two newer we offer a 1-year warranty and newer system (4yr old) we offer 2–3year warranties. This directly reflects the reliability of aging hardware.
Yes, e-waste is a huge issue, but you have to remember a Raspberry Pi 5 can do everything older systems can at fraction of the power consumption and then it's a battle between the embodied energy of the Raspberry Pi vs extra energy usage of keeping an old computer alive.
Truzenzuzex@reddit
Maybe this time will be different, cause another point was digital souveranity . Which you dont get , if you choose Msft.
redddcrow@reddit
nice but OnlyOffice is much faster and better.
notonyanellymate@reddit
Being owned by a Russian with ties to the Russian military doesn’t help OnlyOffice.
redddcrow@reddit
any source for this crazy claim?
notonyanellymate@reddit
https://www.en-zdv.uni-mainz.de/2023/05/30/software-onlyoffice-will-be-switched-to-the-open-source-version/
HotRestaurant0@reddit
This is BOSS
xiaodaireddit@reddit
Heard this one before. almost bankrupted the Munich city or Berlin council
notonyanellymate@reddit
So much FUD, Microsoft marketing are on overdrive
xiaodaireddit@reddit
how is that marketing if it actually happened not that long ago? https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/
unlikely-contender@reddit
They tried it on Munich once already ... hopefully libre office has become more usable since
notonyanellymate@reddit
There wasn’t a usability issue, Microsoft lobbying won. The city even got a new Microsoft head office built there, the Microsoft license discounts will have been massive.
This is probably going the same way again, the city will make millions from this no matter what happens.
unlikely-contender@reddit
Well even as a way to negotiate a better price it makes sense.
_Lick-My-Love-Pump_@reddit
Hey Germany, watch out for those tricky backdoor vulnerabilities!
notonyanellymate@reddit
That’s probably another reason they switching from Microsoft.
gringer@reddit
How long before Microsoft sets up another headquarters in Schleswig-Holstein?
ErenOnizuka@reddit
I‘d give them a month
LeadershipPossible61@reddit
yes
AlexZhyk@reddit
I will be first to applaud, but I remember my joy reading the same news during George W Bush era. Well. I hope it works this time.
Monsieur2968@reddit
I hope they're donating/paying something. I get it's free, but if Microsoft wanted $1,000,000 I hope they donated $100k to something in the ecosystem.
notonyanellymate@reddit
I’d bet they will be, the TDF are based in Germany. And everyone I know who’s serious about open source in business contributes back in various ways.
ErenOnizuka@reddit
This is what we call in Germany an
Ehrenaktion
ug-n@reddit
I was never so proud to be a German
imsowhiteandnerdy@reddit
Didn't the German government announce a massive move to Linux like... 15 years ago or something?
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
No. There was LiMux, a local effort in Munich, which largely failed for political reasons.
furiesx@reddit
Kinda wondering which kind of system they decided to run besides libreoffice
sneleoparden@reddit
QGIS instead of ArcGIS.
irasponsibly@reddit
They're basically incomparable. LibreOffice feels a bit dated compared to MS Office, but QGIS feels solidly like it hasn't been updated in 25 years. It just doesn't really compete with ESRI's offering.
mbitsnbites@reddit
At least Linux, so I guess that means that lots of open source software will follow.
Furthermore, from www.schleswig-holstein.de:
...so it's a massive undertaking (and one which is bound to create a lot of local job opportunities, i.e. tax money going to the right places).
morhad1n@reddit
As someone who lives in the state mentioned and works with the authorities, among others, I can say that I very much welcome this change. As always, perseverance is required in the implementation. There is a German proverb that says: "You can't teach an old dog any more tricks". As is so often the case, it is not so much the initialisation of the idea that fails, but rather the implementation at the lowest level. Nevertheless, I am very positive and consider the development to be great.
John-AtWork@reddit
LibreOffice is basically on par with MS Office at this point. There is no need for the MS tax.
CobaltOne@reddit
I think I read about this on Slashdot in 2001, 2007, 20012, 2016, and last week
jteppinette@reddit
I wonder if they will be using libreoffice directly or a commercial “enterprise” patched version.
sneleoparden@reddit
It's LibreOffice directly.
jteppinette@reddit
Well that’s really good to hear
bundymania@reddit
We've heard this story before and they always go back to Microsoft.
severach@reddit
Microsoft deal incoming in 3.. 2.. 1..
snyone@reddit
Hopefully, anybody that has a "in" at some other local or state government with similar pains might also take the time to come up with a proper proposal showing the cost savings (or ask some of the good folks here for help to do so) and cite the above link...
Maybe it could be a trend-setter :-)
Sinaaaa@reddit
Start Ms Word, insert an image & then start trying to drag it into position without a textbox. Now do the same in LibreOffice, the latter option feels like a revelation, life's good.
Zafarek@reddit
They will go back to Win a few years later. As always.
ParticularRhubarb@reddit
Now Microsoft has to move their German HQ to Kiel to get them back
goofyadmin@reddit
Hello, I'm a Kieler. I'd prefer to go with Linux, thanks.
_leeloo_7_@reddit
imagine if the NHS computers used debian instead of windows xp, It would have cost them a lot less and they would probably still be getting security patches right now
meguminsdfc@reddit
Linux? Nice. LibreOffice? Eww
cobance123@reddit
Is there any better office alternative? Genuinely curious, since I don't love libre office very much
xubz-@reddit
Onlyoffice is there too. Works surprisingly well, if… you’re in the locale/region supported. It for some systemwide locale settings and ruins dates/number formats.
wakandaite@reddit
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Linux.
linux-ModTeam@reddit
This post has been removed for violating Reddiquette., trolling users, or otherwise poor discussion such as complaining about bug reports or making unrealistic demands of open source contributors and organizations. r/Linux asks all users follow Reddiquette. Reddiquette is ever changing, so a revisit once in awhile is recommended.
Rule:
LiquidBlocks@reddit
How much money will they save with this ? 30k windows and office licenses ain’t free
Mollan8686@reddit
So making them incompatible with the remaining Word/Excel PCs in the rest of Europe. Gosh, this should be a EU standard
PrincessRuri@reddit
To quote Back to the Future "I've seen this one".
The German city of Munich infamously went opensource back in 2003 and has been flip-flopping back and forth ever since.
arm2armreddit@reddit
let's wait until M$ lobby will hit like a track! btw, congrats to the libreoffice team. It's a huge step for the OS community.
zulu02@reddit
The previous attempts did not work out.. For example in Munich
themikeosguy@reddit (OP)
Right, over a decade ago, in a very different time and situation, with a lot of politics going on. The head of IT services at the time even said "We are not aware of any large technical problems with LiMux and LibreOffice ... We don't see any urgent technical reasons to return to Windows and Microsoft Office". It was largely ditched for political reasons.
There's no guarantee that this will be a 100% success, but it's a very different world now, Linux and LibreOffice have come on a lot, and you have things like this...
BIGFAAT@reddit
I still wish that Germany would maintain an own distro and needed software by law (or at least some kind of repo for debian) instead of wasting billions in Microsoft and other greedy software licensing.
The next Windows 11 24H2 update will produce a cost since it will render a lot of older hardware useless. A lot of schools and state related school/job projects are still running core2duo and core2quad hardware.
Last_Painter_3979@reddit
there are various types of costs. just because software is free doesn't mean that there are no costs involved. users need to be trained to use it, you might have to do manual maintenance on it, especially on major upgrades. the entire conversion process might cost you a lot of time (and money by extension).
also administering the entire fleet might also require significant work - either you pay for an existing solution or you roll out something like Ansible / Chef or other tech - again, it's time or money expense.
you might have to occasionally modify it to suit your needs, sometimes search for answers to issues online (just like with ms products, to be fair). and there are always some odd corner cases.
i agree that W11 will cause a big landfill, and that's a valid point. but other than that it;s not automatically guaranteed to be a big money saving.
reznorms@reddit
Oh? Did Microsoft forget to bribe them again? Ot is the gov trying to convince Microsoft to pay more this time? 😁
notamiko@reddit
As long as our fax machines continue to work...
Schrankwand83@reddit
Fax machines? I thought they would use semaphors that way up north by the sea
Kok_Nikol@reddit
I've seen this before :D
KitchensAndBedrooms@reddit
I remembered reading about German states moving to Linux in the 2010's and then reading they were planning to revert back some time later, not sure if it ever happened or not though https://www.theregister.com/2018/07/27/lower_saxony_to_dump_linux/
FanaticEngineer@reddit
This happened after a conservative party got inside the government coalition in the state. Same thing happened in Munich in 2014.
Mithrandir2k16@reddit
Public money, public code!
prueba_hola@reddit
I suppose that Linux in this case means Suse, why I think this? Because Suse is a Germany company really strong and with good reputation in Linux world so they can get support for anything than they need
GravityEyelidz@reddit
Yeah sure whatever, and I saw this as a Linux user. Seems to me every time a gov't body says this, it's just to get leverage for cheaper prices from Microsoft.
Expensive_Finger_973@reddit
Good luck to them. The last government that did this (Munich) ended up moving back last I heard either from issues or MS bribery.
MMBerlin@reddit
That MS Germany have their headquaters in Munich didn't play any role in the decision, of course.
countdonn@reddit
Are they moving their data off of proprietary cloud like Office 365 and AWS/Azure/etc.? A company I worked with largely went Linux on the client and workstation side like this but still they use 365 for mail/calendar, Azure for VM, database, and Docker hosting so their data is all still in Microsoft's hands. The article says one of the reasons they are doing this is 365 may violate EU law so I would think that is the more critical piece.
micleftic@reddit
I find this announcement very hmmm funny? Because jsut last week we got an Email stating what Computers had to be updated til 2025 so they are ready for the rollout of windows 11... I work in a school in Schleswig-Holstein, so either they are not planning to roll out Linux on our machines that are connected to the states network or they jsut changed their minds... Either way moving away from Microsoft Office will be a huge hassle for a lot of people, all the documents we use every day and spreadsheets do not work on other software. I tried it myself numerous times... A Ton of work... great and we are in the middle of switching our core school software to a cloud based environment right now... There will eb a lot of people really pissed off about this :-)
_12xx12_@reddit
So the German Microsoft Office is moving again?
ChumpyCarvings@reddit
This has been an ongoing thing for decades.
"We're sick of Microsoft!!*
It's a price negotiating tactic sadly
demonlicious@reddit
i hate all microsoft products so much, but could never figure out linux, even the modern versions.
ezaquarii_com@reddit
Again? They tried once and reverted, because users complained that "it's not the same".
Although it was 15+ years ago.
jasl_@reddit
This happens in Germany every other year I think, and then they roll back
Korpsian@reddit
A city in Germany tried this once, it failed because the users did not want to learn a different OS or a substitute for office
Subtotal9_guy@reddit
This is all well and good until they discover that there's no support for financial plugins for their budgeting systems.
Excel is a much better product than any open source I've tried.
Also, Open Source doesn't mean free. I've had to approve multiple 7 figure payments to Redhat when our devs misunderstood that concept.
_5px@reddit
Didn't the Munich administration already try this? They failed.
hughk@reddit
It was forced to fail for political reasons and there was pressure on the city from Microsoft. Other cities have successfully deployed Linux. Some users need help but broadly, there is no reason that most can't use Linux/Libreoffice.
stprnn@reddit
and? XD
MarSc77@reddit
yeah, friend of mine worked there at that time. it was destined to fail and it did.
cochorol@reddit
And I don't blame them ...
TheBlackCat13@reddit
Time for microsoft to build another facility there.
dual-lippo@reddit
Linux? Wonderful? LibreOffice? I would rather engrave my writings in stone than using this "software"
try_to_remember@reddit
I’m not that old and don’t live in Germany, but even I hear this type of announcement every couple years and it seems like there’s no real progress
TheWiFiNerds@reddit
Very neat. Excellent decision making by Schleswig-Holstein officials.
There is no reason why public institutions should not use open source, and there is never a better time to switch to linux desktop.
Looking forward to positive progress updates on this one.
Anyone know any details like estimated timelines to start/finish?
6c696e7578@reddit
The fact this happened before, was undone, and is happening again, should be a sign to the rest of the world that it isn't such a hardship to switch about.
So long as you don't put your core business into things that are lock-in.
For MSFT though, they're about online subscriptions, so it doesn't matter if they're installing so much, so long as they're /consuming/ subscriptions. You could, after all, be using Firefox to access a VM in Azure... Lets hope not though.
johnorford@reddit
In our local tax office I admired the Kde desktops everyone was using. One of the tax ppl made some throwaway remake that they couldn't afford Windows . I loved it :)
GloriousGouda@reddit
Germany tore down another "wall". Glad to be alive to see these kinds of changes.
Stardread1997@reddit
The funny thing is, if microsoft wouldn't have been treating people the way they do with crappy business decisions people never would have switched. That's how you know just how bad they are getting. You tend to build resentment when you force ads down peoples throats in a paid product. Now this german state has no ads in the OS, no spying, no subscriptions, nothing but benefits after the switch. All it takes is a trickle. Be afraid microsoft.