They are going to lose on the war of attrition. Man, I really hate republicans who are serving Russia instead of the USA and denying funding and help for Ukraine.
They were going to always lose this war, it was delusional to think otherwise without direct western or NATO intervention. The propaganda made it like Ukraine was not only winning but Russia was on the verge of collapse. People that told the pro-Ukraine crowd to negotiate two years ago maybe knew something about war in that region and how temporary western support goes. Now people that cheered for Putin to be deposed get to be the ones that are actually responsible for what happens next through their hubris and hardline stances that were more bark than bite.
Now to salvage this mess of a proxy war we'd need send troops... and you wanna blame Republicans. Propaganda does wonders
>They were going to always lose this war,
Vietnam was always going to lose against the US, just like Algeria had no chance against France and Afghanistan was powerless against the Soviet Union.
Finland is tiny and was fighting alone, yet managed to fend the Soviet empire off. Ukraine is a big country and has the support of the richest and most advanced countries. Their chances are way better.
We are talking about the Winter War, right? Finland wasn't really supported by the Axis, more like the West plus Italy.
Here's a tier list of Finland's supporters during the Winter War based on their contributions made by ChatGTP based on [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_support_of_Finland_in_the_Winter_War):
S-Tier:
Sweden: Provided the most volunteers (8,700), military supplies, and humanitarian aid. Its Volunteer Corps relieved Finnish troops.
Hungary: Secretly sent monetary aid, military equipment, and 346 volunteers, despite difficulties with Germany.
United States: Through Herbert Hoover’s Finnish Relief Fund, sent millions in aid, and condemned the Soviet attack.
A-Tier:
France & United Kingdom: Planned military support and sent aircraft, but the intervention failed due to Swedish refusal for passage.
Italy: Provided fighters and rifles, though most aid was blocked by Germany.
B-Tier:
Norway & Denmark: Sent volunteers and medical aid but were restricted by their governments' neutrality policies.
C-Tier:
Estonia & Poland: Provided only small numbers of volunteers due to political constraints.
I don't know if you know it or not, but the regional type of warfare in the flat and mud of Ukraine isn't the same as the Vietnam jungle, deserts of Algeria, or high mountains of Afghanistan. I did mention warfare in that particular region specifically
You seem to think that the terrain is very important. I think that's very secondaru. This war is about imperial wars and wars of liberation. This is why I think Ukraine can win, if they get enough support.
So if there is enough good feelings and positive propaganda angles Ukraine wins... believe that if you want to. The only way Ukraine wins this war is with directly western intervention, NATO trainers, scrapped together equipment, and some high level military advisors aren't gonna cut it.
Doesn't mean much when you don't got the men, training, or logistics to field them at scale... that's how you get an overhyped but failed counter-offensive
> regional type of warfare in the flat and mud of Ukraine isn't the same as the Vietnam jungle
may be that is why Russia is always paranoid of NATO in Ukraine?
> They were going to always lose this war, *it was delusional to think otherwise without direct western or NATO intervention.*
I think that Ukraine loses *worse* in the latter scenario. What we see today is a degree of restraint on Russia's part, we would not see that if NATO had become directly involved. Maybe Russia would also have lost in that event, but certainly the devastation of Ukraine's infrastructure and population would be exponentially worse.
There was never going to be a negotiation. Ukraine wouldn't trust any treaties from Russia without an external enforcer, and Russia would not allow any external force that power over them.
Well this "external enforcer" actually encouraged Ukraine to prosecute this suicidal war.
And now the biggest external enforcer hasn't passed a substantial aid package for almost half a year
Zelensky got suckered and he himself has pretty much said so
What is this dichotomy you propose - Suicidal war vs. what?
Yeah he did, he got completely screwed regarding aid, turns out Russia's influence on the US has been incredibly successful.
I mean, they had a workable peace deal in 2022 that even had the Ukrainian negotiators popping bottles of champagne at their success.
But, as one of the negotiators says, Boris Johnson came to Ukraine and suddenly Zelensky broke off all negotiations.
I see, so Boris had no influence on the process but then as soon as he sets foot in Ukraine - Magic!
I could give you many things they weren't even close on agreeing to. For example that Russia demanded that Ukraine be limited to 85k personnel, meanwhile Ukraine put this number at 250k, and Russia demanded, I shit you not that they keep missiles only capable of striking 40km deep.
They were never serious about making a deal *for* peace, they were interesting in swinging their leverage around and seeing what they could get. There's one hell of a difference.
> I see, so Boris had no influence on the process but then as soon as he sets foot in Ukraine - Magic!
Well, not one but two Ukranian negotiators referenced the role of Boris Johnson in regard to the eventual end of negotiations
> I could give you many things they weren't even close on agreeing to
A Ukranian negotiator stared that negotiations were 90% done and that the next step was for Zelensky and Putin to meet personally to decide what would happen with the Donbass in regards to a possible reinstatement of the Minsk agreements or what not.
> They were never serious about making a deal for peace, they were interesting in swinging their leverage around and seeing what they could get. There's one hell of a difference.
Again, Ukrainian negotiators spoke about how Russia seemed to earnestly want to conduct negotiations. Meanwhile, Israeli, German and Turkish dignitaries who attended the negotiations seemed to allude to the West blocking the peace talks in some way.
Keep running that narrative, and vague titles. Ukraine can't decide for themselves, and having an advisor advising not to follow Russia because they aren't trustworthy isn't =/= NATO tells us what to do.
But again, someone calling them NAFO and posting "top" politician nobodies is such a joke.
> They were going to always lose this war, it was delusional to...
sorry if im too lazy, but i'm pretty sure that wasnt your point of view in early 22.
I was. And that's also after calling that Russia didn't bring nearly enough men to take Ukraine at the start of the war... I had to deal with pro-Ukraine trolls in their first war telling me about how Russia would collapse due to the sanctions, that Ukraine would recapture everything including Crimea, that Russia was desperate for manpower, that Russia was outta ammo so they needed North Korea, etc etc.
It's amazing that it took this long for the majority to catch-up, that propaganda was laid on pretty thick
Ughh, the real kicker is gonna be in a year or two when project Ukraine has undeniably collapsed and the western narrative will constantly repeat that
1. "There was no way *anyone* could've predicted this outcome for Ukraine!"
2. "Ukraine actually *could've* won, if it wasn't for those dastardly republicans/Hungarians/insufficient military aid/Ukrainian corruption/Trump/China/Israel/Hamas/European reactionaries/Zelensky/Zaluzhnyi/Syrskyi/Mearsheimer/culture war-issue #2345/the non-committal 3rd world/magic Russian brain-lazers causing Havanna syndrome etc etc etc etc
3. "Uhh, actually, Ukraine *did* win, if you think about it in relative terms! *Landmass stalemate*! *Kharkiv counteroffensive*!" [Link to Zelensky absurd claim of merely 30k Ukrainian casualties, Link to UK claims of 350k dead russians]
Anything, other than a understanding that the west lost a war to *stinky, fucking Russia*. The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance will psychically resonate hard enough to power smaller electronic devices.
Hi I'm an independent and if all we can do is fund them then they will just lose more slowly. And all we can do is fund them because putting boots on the ground starts world war three and while it seems like that is what the people in charge want its not a good shout for the rest of us who don't own bunkers. Why should we keep funding a losing war?
So because Russia could start another war we should keep funding Ukraine until all of the Ukrainian people are dead? Seems like sound logic. They have no chance of winning with out NATO boots on the ground they dont have enough guys. they can have all the guns in the world and no one to shoot them.
I dont want all of the Ukrainians dead so i would rather have a political solution.
holy smokes, another gutmensch not wanting poor ukrainians to die, and rather gives away half the country to putin, just for him to take the latter half after a few years of licking his wounds...
serious question: where do you get your information/pov from??
My point of view comes from the fact that mathematically they dont have enough guys to win no matter how much you give them and us funding them makes more people dead. We should not pay for unwinnable wars there is no up side there. Because of their lack of man power this ends one of two ways they are bleed of their people to the point where Russia ends up with all of it or NATO puts boots on the ground and starts ww3 which will end in me getting nuked. I'm not looking forward to either of those because they are not a net gain for the world.
> they dont have enough guys to win
> their lack of man power
Stop. It's a country of ~38 million people.
France had the same population before WW1, yet kept an army in the field while enduring SIX TIMES the casualties per year as Russias inflated claims about Ukraine.
> there is no up side there
There are multiple upsides.
1. The lesson Hitler taught us was that appeasing expansionist dictators doesn't work. If the allies had gone to war in 1936 when Hitler annexed the Rhineland, Germany would have been crushed for a tiny fraction of the casualties of WW2. Allowing dictators to keep biting chunks out of their neighbors lets them grow stronger, allows them to mobilize more people and resources from the conquered territory to become even more difficult to deal with later. It's best to stop them early.
2. We take for granted how peaceful the world has been since the international system was created after WW2. By historical standards, it's not normal. Rewarding a blatant annexation like this would send the message to every dictator that they can get away with it, increasing the risk of conflict around the world, thus increasing the risk of us getting drawn into those conflicts.
3. Every tank moved out of Russian storage depots and destroyed is one fewer that Nato has to prepare to face in the event of a two-front war with China. It makes Europe more secure and allows the US to focus on preventing Chinese aggression in the Pacific.
4. It's the best advertisement possible for the effectiveness of our weapons. Pending orders for our domestic arms production have skyrocketed, benefiting our economy and industrial base.
5. A democracy got invaded, giving them the means to defend themselves is unambiguously morally good.
6. After the war, regardless of whether Ukraine is officially in Nato or not, they will be a valuable ally going forward. Even before this, guess how many countries contributed over 1,000 troops to our "Coalition" in Iraq? Only 6, and Ukraine was one of them. The US hasn't forgotten Frances role in helping it achieve independence after 200 years, and Ukraine won't forget this.
> France had the same population before WW1, yet kept an army in the field while enduring SIX TIMES the casualties per year as Russias inflated claims about Ukraine.
There were other countries also fighting and if there had not been they would have lost that's why there was a world war. We dont know how many people are dying in this war because both sides are really protective of those numbers.
>The lesson Hitler taught us was that appeasing expansionist dictators doesn't work.
It's odd that this talking point keeps coming up considering that the only other targets really are NATO and russia knows better then attacking NATO.
>If the allies had gone to war in 1936 when Hitler annexed the Rhineland, Germany would have been crushed for a tiny fraction of the casualties of WW2.
Any time two countries have a disagreement we should just let slip the dogs of war? Again America is not the world police and should not be.
>Allowing dictators to keep biting chunks out of their neighbors lets them grow stronger, allows them to mobilize more people and resources from the conquered territory to become even more difficult to deal with later. It's best to stop them early.
Who gets to make the call of who is a problem? Because your plan sounds like a slippery slope to authoritarianism.
>We take for granted how peaceful the world has been since the international system was created after WW2. By historical standards, it's not normal. Rewarding a blatant annexation like this would send the message to every dictator that they can get away with it, increasing the risk of conflict around the world, thus increasing the risk of us getting drawn into those conflicts.
The USA has been involved in a war or a conflict or what ever these people want to call more or less every year since WW2 so I wouldn't say we live in a time of unbridled peace. It seems like the world benefits from the American military industrial complex.
>Every tank moved out of Russian storage depots and destroyed is one fewer that Nato has to prepare to face in the event of a two-front war with China. It makes Europe more secure and allows the US to focus on preventing Chinese aggression in the Pacific.
There it is. In exchange for all the Ukrainian people we get to weaken our perceived enemy.
>It's the best advertisement possible for the effectiveness of our weapons. Pending orders for our domestic arms production have skyrocketed, benefiting our economy and industrial base.
Is that something we really need to advertise since you know we have been efficiently killing people for nearly 100 years.
>A democracy got invaded, giving them the means to defend themselves is unambiguously morally good.
Calling a country that up until the war started had articles coming out about how vastly corrupt the ruling class is a democracy is a pretty bold assertion. They are about as free of a democracy as Russia was but its cool now because since the military coop in 2014 they side with Americas interests.
>After the war, regardless of whether Ukraine is officially in Nato or not, they will be a valuable ally going forward.
Doubt.
>Even before this, guess how many countries contributed over 1,000 troops to our "Coalition" in Iraq? Only 6, and Ukraine was one of them. The US hasn't forgotten Frances role in helping it achieve independence after 200 years, and Ukraine won't forget this.
Do you think the war in Iraq was a just war on Americas part? That's not the win you think it is. It just shows that they are easily lead.
> There were other countries also fighting and if there had not been they would have lost that's why there was a world war.
Not relevant. I was only speaking to a country of 37 Million replacing casualties.
> We dont know how many people are dying in this war because both sides are really protective of those numbers.
That's why I used Russias published numbers for Ukrainian casualties, which is an obviously inflated 440,000 casualties over 2 years. If the real number is half of that (which is likely), then Ukraine is taking 1/12th of the annual casualties as France during WW1. France fielded an army of 2.6 Million the entire war from the same population Ukraine has now.
> Any time two countries have a disagreement we should just let slip the dogs of war? Again America is not the world police
This isn't just a "disagreement," Russia invaded a sovereign country that wants to be aligned with us. We already signed the Budapest Memorandum promising to provide assistance if that happened, so we should fulfill that commitment. Failing to do so makes it more likely some authoritarian dickhead will try challenging our other commitments, which would draw us into a war.
Is spending 5% of our annual defense budget on our own armament factories really "letting slip the dogs of war?"
> Because your plan sounds like a slippery slope to authoritarianism
Defense against an aggressor is the most justifiable form of violence. Russia is literally the one spreading authoritarianism.
> The USA has been involved in a war or a conflict or what ever these people want to call more or less every year since WW2 so I wouldn't say we live in a time of unbridled peace.
Of course there have been wars, but the global deaths from conflict compared to the global population have been falling since 1945. And those conflicts tend to be internal civil wars, instead of a country trying to annex it's neighbors borders, which used to be constant. The borders in Europe were absolute chaos for hundreds of years compared to the relative stability since WW2, and this war is a challenge to that order. Everyone benefits from preventing a return to that norm.
> There it is. In exchange for all the Ukrainian people we get to weaken our perceived enemy
Personally I'm more motivated by the "It's the right thing to do" argument, but I've found that isolationists struggle to find the basic human empathy necessary to raise a hand to save a drowning man or stop a rape, so I offered a few 'Murica First arguments too.
> Calling a country that up until the war started had articles coming out about how vastly corrupt the ruling class is a democracy is a pretty bold assertion. They are about as free of a democracy as Russia was but its cool now because since the military coop in 2014 they side with Americas interests.
There's some truth in that, but also some revisionist history. Their military didn't participate in the Euromaidan protests, which were explicitly anti-corruption and pro-democracy. [Their Corruption Perception Index has improved](https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023/index/ukr) from 26 in 2014 to 36 today. Russia is still worse at 26.
I fail to see why any of that should strip them of their right to self-defense.
> Do you think the war in Iraq was a just war on Americas part?
No, but that's a whole other topic. Ukraine didn't participate in the invasion, only peace-keeping efforts afterwards. My only point was that they showed up when we asked for help, and it should be pretty obvious that that support would strengthen after helping them stop Russias invasion.
I could go point by point but at this point we are on different sides. I dont think the USA should get involved in this shit it doesn't help the average person and only serves to enrich a select few. If i was Russias neighbor i would have a problem with them but I'm not i live an great deal of water away. and them coming to help us during a conflict we started don't fill me with confidence that they make good choices either. Russia is a corrupt shit hole and so is Ukraine and getting in the middle of it doesn't help average Americans. that 5% of the budget could be allocated to something else like securing our own boarders. but hey if world war 3 starts and we all get exploded i wont say i told you so. Now i'm going to go get baked and eat my dinner and not think about being nuked into the stone age anymore
So you think with less than a million men left Ukraine is not going to be just completely empty in a couple years?
Putin cannot attack NATO countries the same way so they are going to be safe.
A political solution? Putin would NEVER allow a deal with any kind of actual external enforcement where violation has a price, it wouldn't be worth the money it's written on.
And yes, they would attack NATO, not in the way most people imagine, but still, technically. It'd be more like Russia trying to destabilize the west for another few years, get Trump and other people who destroy faith in western unity/NATO elected, sew more distrust among populations, etc.
Then do some kind of hybrid attack, like a big cyber attack, or attack underwater communication cables, for example... or maybe, finally attack a very small NATO country like Estonia in order to challenge article 5, and attempt to attack such a country without NATO invoking it.
This IS Putin's wet dream. It (escalation) WILL happen, the question is just to what degree? It might stop short of actual kinetic warfare, or it might not, it just depends on what Putin thinks he can get away with.
> A political solution? Putin would NEVER allow a deal with any kind of actual external enforcement where violation has a price, it wouldn't be worth the money it's written on.
Okay so all the Ukrainian people get to die that's also cool I just dont want to pay for it.
>And yes, they would attack NATO, not in the way most people imagine, but still, technically. It'd be more like Russia trying to destabilize the west for another few years
We are doing that well enough on our own Our college kids can't define simple words anymore.
>get Trump and other people who destroy faith in western unity
You do know that the Muller report has been discredited. There was no real evidence that Russia got Trump elected and Russia have even said they would have preferred Hillery. Trump is a lunatic and they hate that. lunatics are hard to control.
>sew more distrust among populations,
Again we are doing this well enough on our own that why we have so many boxes to put people in... Or did you forget about the george floyd summer of love.
>Then do some kind of hybrid attack, like a big cyber attack, or attack underwater communication cables, for example...
Or maybe they will blow up a pipeline that keeps European people from freezing to death for cheap... then sell them bottled natural gas to save them from their enemies. wait.
>or maybe, finally attack a very small NATO country like Estonia in order to challenge article 5, and attempt to attack such a country without NATO invoking it.
As long as its not with natives we tend to keep our treaties. So i doubt they would be that stupid unless you back them into a corner where they feel like a nuclear exchange is all that's left. You know something inviting all their border countries into NATO and then putting American troops closer and closer to their country.
>This IS Putin's wet dream.
I don't think mutually assured destruction is anyone's wet dream but sure go off.
>It (escalation) WILL happen,
will is a word that makes it sound like you can see the future.
>It might stop short of actual kinetic warfare, or it might not, it just depends on what Putin thinks he can get away with.
If he attacks NATO that is world war 3 and world war three ends in Nukes. He knows that that's why he keeps saying hey stop doing that thing you're doing and western nations say hey fuck you buddy. It's also that you think trump would be a destabilizing force since you know he didn't attack until the democrats were in office. never been closer to WW3 then under genocide joe biden.
So you really believe the answer is they might? Putin has always talked about the glory the Russia used to have. He wants their old borders back and is taking them by force and has been since before this war when they took Crimea. There's no might.
Which countries are not NATO? You mean Belarus? a country that already agrees with them? or do you mean Georgia a country to nearly boarders IRAN. I feel like you are giving far too much credit to the foresight of the Russian military.
Tbh I think it's not a bad deal for the US, companies get to profiteer and the US gets to kill russian combatants without losing a single soldier. The US also can stop funding upkeep of outdated equipment.
That's fine but we are also sending cash to fund things. It seems like an awful plan to let Russia kill all the Ukrainians just to get rid of some outdated equipment though.
Look, I understand what your sentiment, and maybe you're not wrong, but you understand, you're effectively saying "Okay, let's kick off World War III" right?
oh my god, you "independents" are truly just corrupted and bought off republicans who dont dare say so... i cant state how embarassed i am for you poor folk...
Republicans are very pro funding ukraine. The media is lying to you on that one.
Lynsey grahm and mitch mcconnel are huge proponents, off the top of my head.
>Republicans are very pro funding ukraine.
Only a handful of republican senators voting with the Democrats on this issue would be enough to pass Ukraine aid. The fact that they don't means they care more about appeasing Trump than helping Ukraine, a country desperately fighting for survival.
Republicans are disgusting pieces of shit, betraying democracy for a sinister populism that more and more resembles fascism. The American system is absolutely dysfunctional if a minority can do this. And it's possible that Americans will elect Trump again! 🤮
yes, there are a hand full of repubs who havent sent off their spine in _all_ of the topics, but calling them "very pro funding ukraine" is just gaslighting, bro...
I'm a Democrat but how exactly would it serve the US to have fully funded Ukraine? Lighting billions on fire to provide enough weapons for Ukraine to slowly lose seems like a ridiculous plan. Ukraine was guaranteed to lose the second we decided not to fully go to war and put boots on the ground. The entire "bleed Russia for cheap" was such a ridiculous concept, and in hindsight folks who pushed that idea need to take a moment of reflection. 2 years later and Russia is content with it's military economy, Russians support Putin overwhelmingly, and Russia hasn't even lost a half a percent of it's military aged population. Even with double the weapons Ukraine asked for, they never had the trained man power to use it and even if they did they would've lost.
Soooo how exactly does saving US taxpayers money on a lost cause make Republicans subservient to Russia?
Yes the republicans are stopping NATO, the EU, and literally the entire rest of the world from also donating. Yep, it is all because of one single country who already gave more than any other country in the world.
Even if they throw more money at them, they don't have the body or logistics to keep up with the equipment. You don't just dump a shit load of F16 in the country and expect them to know how to use, maintain, equip, and ext.
Salami slicing the draft rather than immediately lowering the age to something like 18 seems like the politically conscious but I don’t think it will yield enough manpower to bulk up Ukraines army enough to change the tide of the war. Ukraine either needs to fully commit to win by fully expanding the draft or it needs to sign a peace deal. Any in-between will result in more lost land and lives for Ukraine without any benefit of substance.
The minimum age doesn't matter, that's not the main point of the new laws. Even if the minimum age was lowered all the way down to 18, it won't do much, as there are less than [1 million men aged 18-27 left in Ukraine](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Ukraine_2023_population_pyramid.svg/723px-Ukraine_2023_population_pyramid.svg.png), including people already in the army, crippled, or those exempted from the draft.
The real meat of the law is the removal of such exemptions, allowing Ukraine, for example, to mobilize people with "non-critical" disabilities, and a great expansion of state powers in punishing the draft dodgers - a draft dodger status will be assigned automatically instead of going through the courts and they'll be refused all services and have their money frozen, making it much harder to hide.
> a draft dodger status will be assigned automatically instead of going through the courts and they'll be refused all services and have their money frozen, making it much harder to hide.
That seems really authoritarian... but then they also got rid of voting so i guess.
Their entire territory is an active war zone... that's weird since i keep getting told that they are pushing Russia back. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine.svg/1920px-2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine.svg.png) is a picture to illustrate how much of Ukraine is not actively at war. Martial law is a great way to circumvent democacry most dictators use it to make sure they dont lose power. And if this war is truly about preserving democracy then we should really be pushing those values.
I'm sorry, are the Shahed drones that russia sends to Kyiv and the other parts of Ukraine no longer in existence? Has Russia completely given up on invading the rest of Ukraine and has announced an official limitation of battle scope to Donetsk, Lukhansk and Crimea?
All I'm seeing now is that russia is not attacking the rest of Ukraine due to a lack of materiél to do so rather than a lack of will.
Ukr constitution article 83:
In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency
> it won't do much, as there are less than 1 million men aged 18-27 left in Ukraine, including people already in the army, crippled, or those exempted from the draft.
so it just might double their numbers of fresh, unexchausted, juvenile energetic boots? wtf argument is that??
This is half measure. They need to mobilize anyone from 18 and up, also women (for behind front-lines roles).
All this does is drip feed manpower to preserve status quo and stalemate. Right now Russia is slowly advancing, this new manpower will halt the advance, until Russia also mobilizes another 300-400k people. Then it's back to Russia slowly pushing. All this does is prolongs conflict. No mater what NAFO morons say, this negatively affects support in US, the main supporter of Ukraine. US politicians only care about votes, if this war becomes boring to the majority of US voters, US will cut support even further leaving it a drip-feed levels.
Ukraine needs manpower, it needed it in 2023 when Zaluzhny first argued about mobilization with Ukraine President Office.
> All this does is prolongs conflict.
This is what NATO is after. they want to weaken Russia down to the last Ukrainian life. If you step back and look at the utility of what is happening with out using your feelings a a filter there is no other reason for NATO to continue funding this war.
My brother in Christ this is the argument your side keeps putting forward. A different person who responded to me said this.
>Every tank moved out of Russian storage depots and destroyed is one fewer that Nato has to prepare to face in the event of a two-front war with China. It makes Europe more secure and allows the US to focus on preventing Chinese aggression in the Pacific.
This is literately one of the democrats talking points. but sure make this about 1 guy who is running for president that should help your cause.
The side that thinks that Trump was tantamount to Hitler and marching us to oblivion while not looking at the world as it is today. Using trumps name as a pejorative and then equating my opinions to his ideology is what makes me think you are on the side of the propagandist state. he was an asshole but we had less war under his tenure. I recommend you take your own advice and maybe touch grass and look inward as to why you want to equate a we need less war mentality to trump.
> Trumpists out in force today
No but this comment paints a picture. You claim to be above it but you don't put forth any sort of argument you just ad hominem attack people you disagree with so if you were American you would be exactly who i think you are, but you are from some place else and hold these beliefs so you are just as bad. have a great day being intellectually dishonest.
See i can't argue with a person who just attacks me with out any sort of information the back it up. You claim i can't think for my self when my whole point is that America should not be paying for wars we are not involved in. and you taking the intellectual hill of this guy is just spouting propaganda without actually forming an opinion counter to that makes you look silly. I don't watch fox and I'm not on truth social so again come at my arguments that you claim to have a differing opinion on. Just jumping into a conversation and calling people names is what makes people form those opinions about you. You dont seem to argue well. because if your whole counter point is hur dur that's what trump would say you may be retarded. Just saying if you have any real points to make then i'm happy to hear them but if you are just going to attack me with out understanding my mindset or point then maybe the internet is a bit much for you.
So you were just insulting me on a public social media sight where we have never met before because i made a comment to another person. yeah seems like the totally rational and smart way to use your time. My point is that when you come into a conversation and just hurl insults it make you look stupid. I'm giving you the opportunity to come back and give a thoughtful response to the conversation you interjected yourself into and once again you choose to attack me personally.
> you're doing it every. single. comment.
Because they way you interjected your insult with no merit or argument paints a picture of the type of person you are. You have a set of beliefs not ideas and when you can't come up with a way to counter another persons opinions you insult them.
We don't actually care about Ukrainian people. People will put a flag in their bio and call it a day. Its funny too because they put the Palestinian flag in their bio then get mad at Russia for discriminating against gay people. I dont think Russia has gotten to the point of just chucking them off buildings yet.
Except for Russian republics of Dagestan and Chechnya but I have no idea why is that and what is the similarity with Palestine and other countries that are super extreme anti LGBT people and according to Reddit sitewide policy not only I don't know why is that but I am not going to try and guess what is the similarity between them
Don’t be silly, there is no point mobilising manpower if there are no weapons for them to use. This is a long war, Ukraine needs to preserve its manpower and right now there’s no great need to mobilise, the front is static. The main bottleneck is and always has been equipment, once there is sufficient equipment, then manpower can be utilised.
Ukraine can’t afford to be wasteful and utilise human wave tactics in a war where it is at a numbers disadvantage. Footage of Ukrainian infantry dying en masse would be an optics nightmare.
Ukraine will draft more people when it has the weaponry to back it, and not a second before.
This comment is incredibly misinformed. The front isn't "static" at all, Russia has the momentum on all sides.
And they aren't ever going to have the weaponry to defeat Russia.
The rate of advance is as slow as ever, and again only on the basis of heavy assaults that burn through manpower and equipment at high rates. Sure, for now volunteers are bridging the gap in combat losses. Russia claimed to have recruited something like \~500K people in 2023 alone, and those enormous numbers have yielded very tame gains - far smaller than Russia's 2022 summer offensives around Luhansk.
I highly doubt the continued recruitment trends will keep up since there are limits to how many people want to risk dying in a trench, money be damned.
I feel like this is catch 22. US won't commit more funding, until they are sure Ukraine will keep on fighting and committing hefty price in terms of blood.
Ukraine doesn't mobilize more people arguing they need more weapons. I think the support Ukraine got in 2022 and first half of 2023 is because of how quickly they mobilized and how hard they fought even with minimal weapons.
Now it's opposite, US provided lot of weapons, but no further mobilization followed and 2023 was a disaster for Ukraine. They NEED to do full mobilization if they want to have any chance of winning.
US got cold feet, because they see this as well, they provided weapons and ammo, but Ukraine misused them and didn't commit more manpower.
And total mobilisation have one small problem - someone need mobilise all this people. But situation already bad enough to force them hunt people on streets. And there few (very few, need to say) cases when draft officers meet strong resistance - like they was beaten by locals. It's before start talk about deserters (big problem). Total mobilisation increase this problem to epic scale.
If they lower it to 18 the Ukrainians are going to lose their minds. I'm checking a few popular Ukrainian channels on Telegram and even this news gets a very negative reaction. Don't get me wrong, I'm pro Ukraine, but to be honest I don't understand Ukrainians at all. They want to continue fighting but they hate mobilization. Something doesn't add up here
They dont all want to continue fighting. And they especially don't want to die in the trenches. They look at Crimea and wish they had that, instead of daily bombings.
Not surprised at all really, it is very typical human behaviour. People talk as if they have a moral highground if it doesn’t affect them.
Common example would be people attitudes towards homeless. Many people likes to voice concerns about government evicting homeless people as inhuman, until they have homeless people loitering near their house.
What doesn’t add up? Most redditors want Ukraine to win but 99% of people here wouldn’t volunteer to fight. If they got drafted I promise you they would immediately decide the war is no longer worth it.
I remember that there were talks about giving a ton of money to rebuild it, though.
Plus I believe it's the way refugees work. Refugee status isn't like a green card or something. Once the war is over they need to return.
Let go? Why would the ukrainians want to return to that shitty hellhole? Ukrainians have been trying to emigrate to EU for ages before even any maidan, because it's not only less prosperous than EU, Ukraine is less prosperous than even Russia.
In the US refugee status is exactly a path to a green card. Its one of the fastest/easiest paths to a green card, but not the easiest to qualify for, since you have to be a legitimate refugee.
Stupid argument, some causes are worth fighting and dying for. The Ukrainians have drawn a line in the sand and said no further.
The major bruh moment is you not understanding why people fight to defend their independence and way of life.
I do but its odd that Russia set boundaries before the war and they are just ignored so why should they respect other peoples boundaries? I tend to take people at face value when they make threats and you know saying that if Ukraine tries to join NATO they will invade them is kinda what happened. It's almost like they did exactly what they said they would do.
Depends. what points are we talking about because before 1941 the USA kinda did until Japan attacked us and Germany declared war on us. Do you know why that is? It's not because old Americans were monsters its because it was none of our fucking business until they made it our business. No we go around making everything our business and much to the detriment of the American people. This isn't our war and saying that is not giving support to one side or another and as no one ran on we are going to give more of your money to countries at war I say hey there is a vote coming in November lets see if the majority of the American people want our taxes going to fight other peoples wars. So you can make comparisons to Hitler all day and try to get me to feel bad because you have a shitty opinion of me but it wont work. We are not the world police we have no treaty with Ukraine and there for we are funding an unwinnable conflict in which many young men will lose their lives.
I think your nationality tag really DOES NOT help your case
But hey welsh language is coming back, wales is not yet lost
"Men of Harlech hold ye steady
It shall not be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Welshmen never yield!
Men of Harlech stop your dreaming
Dont you see their spearpoints gleaming
See their warriors pendants streaming
To this battlefield!
I think Russia already did immeasurable damage to Ukraine (not in sense of property but in sense of Ukrainian (and Russians in Ukraine) people getting their lives basically ruined). Half of Europe bowed before the nazis and I dont see how it wasnt beneficial for them. The lesson it gives is that sometimes its best to duck your head and let yourself get carried
Good thing absolutely no one is fighting over the color of their flag.
One side is fighting to conquered and subjugate their neighbor into their brutal empire ruled by whatever bloody minded psychopath has killed his way to the top of the Russian "political system". The other side is fighting to defend their homes from invasion, colonization, and the hope that one day they can at least aspire to live more free and prosperous than a Russian - something that definitely won't happen if they are conquered and made involuntary thralls of the Russian empire.
I can't if they're really bad armchair generals, or if they have a motive to sway public opinion. Reddit is so full of bots and shills that I can hardly stand to spend time in news subs.
There's little point in calling up manpower if you don't have the weapons and ammo to fight appropriately. Ukraine has to be more careful with its troops. Even before the invasion Russia had a 3 to 1 advantage in estimated total manpower. Western weapons and support have given Ukraine the ability to fight more efficiently than their Russian counterparts, and it is needed. Without the gear in place for fresh troops to use, there is little good in calling up more men than needed. They don't want to meat grinders their kids against Russia, because then they'd probably both lose and have dead kids.
Macrons move to open up sending french soldiers to e.g. guard the Belarusian border would free Ukrainian soldiers for the front.
It would grant Ukraine manpower without lowering the age for draft. I support Macron in this move and hope other European states do the same.
It's been lowered from 27 to 25, before everyone starts claiming that Ukraine are conscripting 16 year olds. They're concerned about a potential demographics crisis after the war.
Russia should be too, but for some reason they're still conscripting 18 year olds.
>they're still conscripting 18 year olds
**There's no mobilization in Russia** and haven't been one since 2022. I know that it's extremely hard for redditors to accept facts, but Russia currently refills its army only through volunteers.
What people call "conscription" in Russia is regular military training, completely different from the Ukrainian draft. These trainees not only do not fight anyone and do not guard anything, they've even been pulled back from border regions to avoid any accidents. To be actually deployed in the field, you have to first conduct your training and then volunteer to be enlisted into a unit that actually fights. There's no Ukrainian-style mobilization where people snatch you off the street and drive away, and just a few weeks later you're sitting in a trench, it just doesn't exist.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, there is predatory "volunteering", far greater than the stuff people say how the enlistment in the US military is predatory
Not op and not interested in digging up sources. Just wanted to point out the guys post history is clearly biased towards Russia, so we can assume the comment is biased, too.
Ok, but being biased isn't synonym for being untrue, just because you dislike their instance. Their comment actually makes more sense and seems more informed than people denying on the basis of their own biases without providing any sources.
Only the military training is mandatory (same as in South Korea or Finland, for example), and while the trainees are technically a part of the army, they do not participate in any combat and aren't deployed anywhere near it.
The enlistment into actual combat units is 100% volunteer, there had been no mobilization in Russia after 2022.
Draftees are not sent to the frontlines in Ukraine… at least not yet.
Maybe we want to believe the only way Russia could field an army is by forcing men against their will and the idea that all of these Russians volunteered to be there is difficult to comprehend.
But that’s reality, and that feeling you’re having is knowing you’ve fallen victim to propaganda, but you don’t like that, so you’re defensive and denying it.
You’re not special, you’re just like everyone else.
Excuse me retard. I said this because that is the exact same way that the USA recruits. It take the people in the lowest economic bracket and promises them things to get them out of it. I'm not making this about America I was drawing a correlation between the two. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I heard the schools were better in the Netherlands. what happened?
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Eh, a lot of that budget ends up a profit for companies. But yes, the rest is largely spent paying middle class citizens to do things or make things that ultimately contribute to destruction.
And we wonder why we don't have affordable healthcare, affordable education or affordable home loans (all things the military gives you). We're as martial a country as Sparta was, and if you don't want to be a Helot then you better enlist. Luckily they're having major recruitment and retention issues, here's hoping those continue as more people wake up to that fact.
Except nobody wonders those things.
We have the standard of living that we have due to our investments in the military that allow us to project our power globally and meedle in any geopolitical affairs we want relatively unchecked.
If we had no military might and had to rely upon diplomacy and good will in order to accomplish a global good instead of a national priority, our GDP would be a fraction of what it currently is.
The response to recruitment issues is twofold though, both increased incentives and increased intentional poverty that leads to those incentives being attractive.
> why we don't have affordable healthcare
because we subsidize the cost for the rest of the world.
>affordable education
luckily everything is on the internet now you just dont have the paper.
>affordable home loans
We allow foreign nationals and economic funds to buy homes and they do so at a premium because interest rates are so high. Bidenomics in action.
>We're as martial a society as Sparta ever was,
Not quite there but we could have starship troopers in our future.
>and if you don't want to be a Helot then you better enlist
Yeah that doesn't work when you dont have the national crisis going on and due to our robust social safety net and a lot of jobs handing people shit we can be poor here and live better then 90% of the world.
>Luckily they're having major recruitment and retention issues, here's hoping those continue as more people wake up to that fact.
We do need some people and I feel like the post modern policies going on are not helping. but It should be a good way to move upward. giving yourself over to the goverment should have benefits but I dont think we use our resources properly.
Actually, that's something the US could model, but currently doesn't. You can easily find work in the US that will pay more than the 28K starting salary that enlisted personnel will get.
Not so much the case in Russia, especially outside the major city areas. It's by design.
Why is that hard to believe?
The US military occupies and bombs Iraq and Syria to this day, Gitmo is pretty much the American version of Crimea, sans the official annexation part.
Yet Americans still join up because the US military offers a reliable job opportunity, a way to affordable higher education and healthcare, that would otherwise be completely out of reach for many.
As hard as it might be to believe for some people, it's not too different in Russia with Russians.
We all now that Gitmo contract is nonsense.
Cuban government refuses to take a cent from that lease and insist its rightfully their territory.
They dont try to take ot by arms, but neither did Ukraine try to retake Crimea before 2022. For the same reason: they now that they dont have a remote possibility for taking it. Perhaps Cuba would make an attempt to take GITMO if it was
a) Directly attacked by the US
b) Majorly supported by foreign power
Ukraine was fighting since 2014 to take back Crimea, what are you talking about.
A change of government doesn’t mean its obligations are void. It doesn’t matter if they don’t accept the money, that’s their own decision, the money is still provide per US obligation.
It’s about legality, and the reason why they have little success through the UN is because it’s still a legally binding contract. To end the treaty it has to be a mutual decision.
No it hasn't. It hasn't done a single thing for even a second to take back Crimea. It has been fighting since 2014 to take back Donbass and Luhhansk though.
> Why do you think they want to take those lands back?
Because it's the backbone of the country's heavy and mining industry and a big chunk of income? Because they can't stand the though of the minority ethnicity not bowing down to their oppressive rule?
Either way they haven't taken those lands back, they have not set up a land route to take back Crimea, they had never even begun to fight to take back Crimea.
There were Americans volunteering to join the US army during their invasion of Iraq. Why do people have such a hard time comprehending that many Russians feel about Russia, the same as many Americans feel about America - patriotic?
Look at the casualty figures for the Iraq War and then look at the casualty figures for the invasion of Ukraine and you'll see why there's an a massive difference between the people who joined up during the Iraq War and the people who joined up during this war.
Of the million or so Americans who served in Iraq between 2003 and 2011 there were 4,000 casualties.
So if you deployed to Iraq you had an over 99% chance of coming home alive.
Vietnam had a much higher casualty rate and 2/3 were volunteers - in a war that was taking place half a world away with no direct threat to the US. 50k dead and 300k injured.
https://www.uswings.com/about-us-wings/vietnam-war-facts/
It’s still far far less than Russia in Ukraine. A bit over 50,000 US troops died in Vietnam over 10 years that’s a lot different than what’s currently happening
I don't remember the number, but when I was 17 I had taken the ASVAB ('04) and recruiters were hounding me to join for an 18 month combat tour or something like that with a huge bonus. Thankfully dad found out that I was seriously considering it and was able to keep recruiters off campus. I did not need money but at 17 the idea of war and money is incredibly powerful. ... I thank God every day I'm not still paying off a Camero with 38% interest.
When people are signing up for the US army they’re signing up for the best equipment, best vehicles, best weaponary, best ships, best planes, best drones, with biggest size, biggest budget, and a biggest vet benefits. I.e. they’re signing up to be the big bullies on the world stage.
Russian army is by comparison nowhere anywhere well equipped as the US army where they get to play XBox in a tank.
Don't think that's how the military works. You wouldn't usually end up in Ukraine unless you've proven yourself to be so, or the command wants it. Perhaps for some Russians they can be deployed as part of a border patrol/security service somewhere around their neighborhood or countryside (like Siberia).
Military service pays a lot compared to the average Russian salary ($10k "welcome bonus" and ~$2500/month vs $700 or even $300/month in case of poorest regions where most volunteers come from).
These people also aren't getting their news from the Ukrainian propaganda that has (on paper) already killed and wounded more Russians that have ever entered service.
I'm far from defending people going to the trenches to kill others for money. But you probably can't conceptualize that because you were born in a privileged position and don't need that income of U$10k to provide a decent living to yourself or your family.
No I wasn’t. I was born in Ukraine and when I was little right after ussr collapsed, my family barely had food just like many other families. So I know what it’s like. It is not an excuse. Also many of them will not be providing decent living for themselves or anyone cuz they’ll die in those trenches.
Russia took the lesson that the US learned after Vietnam to heart, there's no point in an extremely unpopular draft when all you need are disadvantaged people that will sign up willingly if there is a chance at a better life. It doesn't have to be a good chance and it doesn't even need to be attainable, with good recruiters you'll get them on board and once they are there, they'll fight like hell and look after their fellow soldiers like brothers.
Andrew Perpetua on twitter tends to show on average a 6:1/7:1 equipment loss ratio (the count of troops lost will never truly be known, but it is known that russia have at the very least 200 - 300,000 wounded and KIA, and I would imagine Ukraine is probably in the 100 - 200k range of wounded and KIA, but its really hard to say for sure, I just know I have seen clips russians climbing over the bodies of their own to move forward only to meet a chunky end with a grenade, its bizzare, and there have been 49 instances of russians taking their own lives on the battlefield. There is a guy keeping track (we just added a russian slitting his OWN throat to the count today).
I have seen 49 russians kill themselves, yet no evidence Ukrainians are doing so, does this indicate normal military behaviour from russia? NO they don't rescue their own, most of them are left abandoned unrecovered.
But that's the, in the context I was stating that I have seen 49 russians kill themselves, yet no Ukrainians, now I can say I have seen 49 russians kill themselves, and 1 Ukrainian (that I could see), It's not actually compilations being made, there is a dude in the combatfootage subreddit who has been tracking this behaviour from the russians, I will let him know there is evidence of Ukrainians doing the same thing next time I stumble upon his posts.
I tend not to use reddit for media gathering and scrape through a bunch of pro russian and Ukrainian telegram channels with a bias, I'm looking for the go pro footage so I can actually watch the on ground fighting, Ukraine channels have some really well edited (still prefer unedited, raw) First Person footage of assaults on trenches, and they're savage man, I've seen a fair few russians commit perfidy through those videos, I've seen a fair few war crimes from both sides in the go pro footage I find on telegram too, the difference in severity is pretty stark though.
most of the drone drop footage I see all on reddit here and thus there is a bias over at the combatfootage subreddit towards Ukraine.
Still though go have a look at Andrew Perpetua's Tweets, his sources are mostly russian, purely so he can tell those that he is biased to fuck off, the losses for both sides are staggering regarding equipment, Ukraine had less to start with.
Combatfootage is extremely pro-Ukrainian and has been that way since day 1 of the war.
The Russian footage is not merely downvoted there, Combatfootage mods have set up an autodelete rule to enforce that people won't even see it in /controversial. Once any post gets -100 points, it's automatically gone, you literally can't see it unless you were able to catch it in /new before it's brigaded to -100 and gets deleted. Oh, and if you try to repost it, the mods will ban you for "spam".
No wonder you get biased footage when any footage that doesn't show Ukraine in a positive light is so heavily censored.
Whoa, a response from the CombatFootage mod who bans people [for posting in the wrong (aka pro-Russian) subreddits](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/19c8kow/why/kix7klf/).
I guess this also never existed:
>"This post was automatically removed due to reports from the community. Your submission may be in violation of forum rules. Please refer to the rules in the sidebar."
Yea that the same report system that every subreddit uses? It just goes to a manual review.
And peoples comments & activity on other subreddits absolutely factors into them getting banned. I appreciate the dedication to cherry picking something to support your argument from months ago.
It's a difference in definition, not in practice. When Russia calls up it's soliders, they're not conscripted just called up from inactivity, because they have mandatory military participation.
They're still calling up an amount of people that they would call up for any legitimate serious actual warfare.
Conscription only happens when citizens don't have mandatory military participation. Ukraine doesn't have that, Russia does.
actually, there recently was another decree from putin conscripting or calling up 150k men, and they did call up through digital mobilisation 170k+ from late 2023, They are haemorrhaging men, they have to close prisons they were signing up people from, they are in a process of crypto mobilisation, its subtle but there are signs of it all around the exterior regions of Russian. life
The prisons however are, and there are a fairly large amount of them that went to Wagner earlier in the war.
Most of the conscripts that end up on the front are usually lied to, they're told they're going training, and then get sent to the front.
Well, that was the story I see on VolodymyrZolkin's Youtube channel quite often when these POW's are interviewed (which is often the only way they can force russia to exchange).
It seems russia is doing the same to foreigners, employing people from India, Somalia under the guise of doing work in the rear building fortifications, only to be moved to the front under duress by their commanders. [Over 100 Indians Recruited as Army Helpers in Russia: Report (thewire.in)](https://thewire.in/government/over-100-indians-recruited-as-army-helpers-in-russia-report) and [Russia has recruited as many as 15,000 Nepalis to fight its war. Many returned traumatized. Some never came back. | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/10/asia/nepal-fighters-russia-ukraine-families-intl-cmd/index.html)
While i agree that some of these conscripts aren't sent to war, I would argue that they will be.
Russia is also known to report soldiers as missing rather than KIA because MIA means no payout.
You believe the testimony of POWs? And the prison battalions are all volunteer. Why they're obviously just saying whatever the other person wants them say to save themselves. Also none of this proves that Russia has mass conscription to the frontline to the levels of Ukraine or Russia did during the partial mobilization.
Not quite? Russia hasn’t had a major mobilization but their conscription has continued, and they’ve been doing massive recruiting sprees in places like Prisoners and foreign fighters. They’re REALLY trying hard to avoid mobilizing most people but they are getting desperate in getting around it.
There is a very practical difference between Russia's draft and Ukraine's mobilization law change.
Russia's draft has a concrete number of 150k people attached to it.
The new mobilization law Ukraine passed is mostly an age change to increase the pool of people that can be mobilized, because Ukraine is still under *general mobilization*, as in; Trying to draft as many people as possible.
>They're still calling up an amount of people that they would call up for any legitimate serious actual warfare.
They do not. There are no such call-ups either, although there was one back in 2022. Since then, there had been no mobilization of reservists, much less Ukrainian-style mobilization of civilians.
Even the articles you posted do not say anything like that - the first one is about volunteers, the second one is about military training, not active duty.
About what, the absence of any current mobilization? Sure, just open any news article from 2023 or 2024 with "Russia" and "mobilization" in the title, and it'll be filled with predictions of the future mobilizations happening literally every month, but never a current one:
>Konstantin Sonin, a Russian-born political economist from the University of Chicago, said Putin is likely holding off against declaring a mass mobilization because he realizes that the war is "deeply unpopular among the vast majority of the Russian population."
>"There are a couple of million who are very happy that there is a war against Ukraine, there are a couple of million who are opposing the war, and there are tens of millions who are not supportive and who are not protesting," Sonin told Newsweek, noting, however, that "volunteer" recruitment is in full swing in Russia, with exceptionally high salaries being offered compared with the national average.
[Why Is Vladimir Putin Stalling?](https://www.newsweek.com/why-vladimir-putin-stalling-russia-mass-full-scale-second-wave-mobilization-1821366)
Bonus point:
>Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksiy Reznikov previously claimed a second mobilization wave in Russia would kick off in January 2023.
A very big chance a lot of the shit you think [they did during WW2](https://youtu.be/p6y_TUoOdfQ?) is also [propaganda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex).
> damn dude is the one man takes the gun one man has the ammo propaganda???
Insofar as it is applied to Soviets? Absolutely.
"Skeptics" assume there is *some* basis to this, as it is a hugely popular myth (because "communism doesn't work", and this must be constantly demonstrated to the masses, lest they start thinking wrong things), but there isn't *anything*. Plenty very motivated historians had scoured archives for something to substantiate it, but the only incident of something remotely resembling this (one rifle per three troopers) happened during one training exercise for Moscow volunteers during the fall of 1941. And that's it.
As always, it is Western experience that gets projected on Soviets. This one applies both to Axis and Allies.
For example, German Volkssturm during Battle of Berlin was separated into Volkssturm I (that had weapons) and Volkssturm II (that was supposed to take weapons of the fallen Volkssturm I).
Alternatively, British have Croft's pikes. Patriotic historians had been trying to downplay this since forever, but it is hard to conceal a fact that Home Guard had hundreds of thousands of effectively unarmed soldiers. Moreover, we have documents confirming that British were asking Soviets for 250k rifles and 1000 ammo for each rifle in 1941 as part of lend-lease (and, presumably, got them). Unfortunately, as the actual lend-lease documents are still a secret (there seems to be another can of worms buried there >!\*cough\* *uranium* \*cough\*!<), we don't have definite proof of how extensively Soviets were supplying Allies via lend-lease.
Apparently, capitalist production wasn't very good at supplying armies with weapons during WW2. But, obviously, this is nerd stuff, ancient history, and has no relevance to anything happening today.
Trying to defend literally the most classic sign you've lost a war (conscription younger and younger people) is so funny
Redditors are so brainrotted they still think ukraine were ever going to win a war , coz their dumbass media told em too and they like pretending it's their cod team gonna make a comeback go outside fkn redditors read a book
Posted above:
Just open any news article from 2023 or 2024 with "Russia" and "mobilization" in the title, and it'll be filled with predictions of the future mobilizations happening literally every month, but never a current one:
>Konstantin Sonin, a Russian-born political economist from the University of Chicago, said Putin is likely holding off against declaring a mass mobilization because he realizes that the war is "deeply unpopular among the vast majority of the Russian population."
>"There are a couple of million who are very happy that there is a war against Ukraine, there are a couple of million who are opposing the war, and there are tens of millions who are not supportive and who are not protesting," Sonin told Newsweek, noting, however, that "volunteer" recruitment is in full swing in Russia, with exceptionally high salaries being offered compared with the national average.
[Why Is Vladimir Putin Stalling?](https://www.newsweek.com/why-vladimir-putin-stalling-russia-mass-full-scale-second-wave-mobilization-1821366)
Bonus point:
>Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksiy Reznikov previously claimed a second mobilization wave in Russia would kick off in January 2023.
Some of them really given orders (повестка) to go to their military commissariat for medical commission, but it half trolling half harassing - just put them through bureaucratic jumps and rituals. I don't know any reports about anyone actually drafted because of this, also because "active phase" of mobilisation end, this guys is considered "conscripts" (призывники) and not under mobilisation (мобилизованные) even if someone drafted durin spring or autumn conscription campaigns.
And if someone from this "draft papers" was go to army half of Russian Internet was already talk about this. But there is silence.
Well, if look to it, then you see that a lot of people talk about this things and continue talking about them without any risk. Greatest secret of Russian Internet - nobody cares about nobodies. You need try very hard to receive attention to even be fined.
was it a week ago that they invaded artists and content creators' houses and confiscated computers, in case they were saying "bad things" ? or perhaps two weeks?
Considering my russian friend is dead scared her relatives and loved ones are going to be sent to war any day, I highly doubt they're *truly* volunteers.
To people who read this comment and the comments below
It might be true but it might also be manipulation, on this subject you're going to have to read around and form your own opinions while trying not to fall for propaganda from either side
> What people call "conscription" in Russia is regular military training, completely different from the Ukrainian draft. These trainees not only do not fight anyone and do not guard anything
There's been documented cases, ie. Piotr something, that was supposed to be on training but was instead partecipating on the 2022 invasion... It may not be as widespread but come on...
I agree though, there's no Ukranian-style mobilization. Martial law mobilization is right now only applied on the occupied territories of Donbas. Poor ukranians there have it bad one way or the other.
Loooool.
So all the evidence of Russian conscripts being sent to the front and killed is all lies?
Lies from Russian Telegram feeds.....
Lies from POWs.....
Lies from Russian funerals
Shill accounts like yours are embarrassing. Infact, the only thing you are good at doing is lying.
Yes and no.
From the formal point of view mobilization of 2022 **haven't ended**. From the practical point of view Russia stopped picking people from the street to trenches anymore, yes.
Yes this is definitely very true! The Russian government would never lie. They aren’t sending any conscripted soldiers to Ukraine! Thank you for telling the truth comrade. Ura!
Of course would. Aside from the shitstorm it would cause in Russian spaces, it’s just very difficult to keep this sort of thing under wraps in this day and age.
Not even western media pretends this is happening - we had an article here about the new 150k round of conscription just a few days ago, and even there it was stated that the last cohort was being released. We seem to go through this cycle twice a year, like clockwork.
Ooh jeez I had to check your comments to see what kind of person I was dealing with. You’re a fucking scumbag, calling Ukrainians disposable. Get blocked nazi.
I've already covered that in the second paragraph in my previous message - it's regular yearly military training, these trainees do not participate in any kind of combat and aren't even stationed in the border regions anymore. They have to finish their training first and then voluntarily enlist in a different unit to be actually deployed in the field. Most do not and are simply discharged as civilians.
These military training conscriptions happen on schedule every April and every October, and redditors freak out every single time because they either never read past headlines or the articles are intentionally conflating the Russian call-ups for training with the Ukrainian mobilization for trench duty.
> It's been lowered from 27 to 25, before everyone starts claiming that Ukraine are conscripting 16 year olds. They're concerned about a potential demographics crisis after the war.
>
>
this is your conscription policy on neoliberalism. during vietnam, the draft started at 20, went up to 25, then 18 and 19. those were the men of fighting age most effective in combat.
the ukraine drafted its oldest men first because they would soon be entitled to a (nonexistent) state pension and progressively marched lower. now they are about to eat into their youthful banderite base in kiev and lvov even though those people should have been drafted first.
And it worked so well for the USA didn't it. Seems Ukraine has made better gains with their "old" soldiers (instead of prime fighting age men) against Russia than the US did during the entire Vietnam war....
At least get your figures right if you're going to try and be clever.
And while you're at it why don't you tell us how much of that territory as a percentage Russia has gained since their second invasion in 2022?
> At least get your figures right if you're going to try and be clever.
>
> And while you're at it why don't you tell us how much of that territory as a percentage Russia has gained since their second invasion in 2022?
Oh so you want to play semantics over a few percent?
Well I guess your right. Ukraine is definitely winning...
The old people defending Ukraine have been doing so well that they retook a percentage of lost land so small it's not going to show up on the graph.
The young people attacking ukraine have been doing so good they lost[over 40%](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682.amp) of their holding after the start of the invasion. All that to one of the most corrupt country in the world. The russian control went from 25% to just 15% (2nd army in the world btw)
What was putin's amazing plan after ukraine anyway? It's already been 26 months and will at least last another 8 months. Reminder that ww1 lasted 51 months. If only russia was fighting a near peer adversary, at least they'd have an excuse for taking so long.
If only russia was fighting a near peer adversary, at least they'd have an excuse for taking so long.
Russia was in Afghanistan for over a decade. USA twice as long and did no better (1st army in the world by the way...) what makes you think they are in a rush or would leave early?
Russia lost millions of men in WW1 but wasn't going to withdraw until civil war happened. Today they aren't being invaded or losing that many men. So nobody is going to stop it internally.
Russia has taken the good farmland and the area needed to let water flow back into Crimea from the canal.
>Afghanistan
Do you want me to show you the casualty graph? I didn't think so. Russia also lost hundreds of aircraft. Surely coalition (not just america) aren't fairing any better. Oh... that a 1 to 8 ratio... oh no what happen ruzzia?
>losing that many men
Over 200 000 casualties isn't many. Said like a true russian (or chinese). Ukraine at least has the decency of deploring its losses instead of qualifying it as "not that many".
>has taken the good farmland
I don't know if exporting mines is considered russia's new agricultural product. I mean they sure seem to grow like wheat in russian occupied zoned.
> Do you want me to show you the casualty graph? I didn't think so. Russia also lost hundreds of aircraft.
That helps my point.
Russia was losing lots of men and equipment.
But they still stayed for over a decade.
They are not going to leave just because they lose a few hundred thousand men.
Sure it's a lot to most countries. But Russia is at least been there done that on that front.
Ukraine as we see from the article we are discussing is trending in the wrong direction manpower wise
>Russia was losing lots of men and equipment.
>But they still stayed for over a decade.
"We suck at war but thank god there are more of us than there are of them... what do you mean there's 5 times as many people, 14 times as many carriers (working) and god knows how many more jets in nato?"
At least you'll have ukraine! Maybe... sort of... what's left of it... for what it's worth... hey cheap contreband smokes are good for the economy! Until people die from lung cancer... what's the life expectancy and male to female ratio already?
I'm sure russian demographics will catch up to america when big brained scientific invent tachyon and go back in time... what do you mean france was the most populous european country up until the 19th century?
Who is trending in the wrong direction you say? Ukraine used to be bumfuck nowhere. Russia made it "important" but only symbolically. What is russia getting out of this apart from reinforcing a downward trend?
>"We suck at war but thank god there are more of us than there are of them...
I mean yes. Russia has historically been very bad at waging war. But they do have the numbers to throw at any problem. And even today it does still work.
> (edit: forgot italy)
When was the last time having italy on your side was considered to be a benefit not a hinderance? Not in any of the wars in our lifetime.
>What is russia getting out of this
I would say that restoring the water canal to crimea was very high on their list. And a land bridge and buffer area around it too.
But since they took crimea first I would say its still the #1 prize they wanted. Everything else is just a bonus.
Russia is probably lucky they weren't able to get a foothold in the capital early on or they might have got dragged into a long slog fight in that city with no hope of having any level of control outside a small area. Similar to the bagdad green zone.
Only the finest cope, on the one hand you argue russia suck at war and therefore will win, on the other hand you make fun of italy for sucking at war. Ah yes russia has the infinte ammo cheat code, even though its demography is fucked and relies on ww2 era artillery to fill the gap.
Also italy still has twice as many carriers and they actually work.
>But since they took crimea first I would say its still the #1 prize they wanted. Everything else is just a bonus.
Ah yes donbass is a bonus that wasn't declared national territory by emperor palputin. Palputin never said he wanted to capture kiev either is what you're going to say next? Atleast try being consistant with your narratives.
>land bridge and buffer area around it too.
So russia is spending the majority of its gdp, ressources, soviet legacy equipement and demography for a land bridge? Sure totally worth it my dude.
Funny how you drop almost immediatly points that you can't argue against. If you think italy is so funny, that's still 16 carriers. You dodged the demography issue and said "russia has the ressources". No russia does not have the ressources for a war, the demographic or economic issue are only going to get worse. All russia has is soviet legacy which is a one trick pony since these massive stock will never replenish.
>Russia is probably lucky they weren't able to get a foothold in the capital early on or they might have got dragged into a long slog fight
As opposed to the war which is not a slog fight? Very funny. I see you are a brilliant individual.
> Only the finest cope, on the one hand you argue russia suck at war and therefore will win, on the other hand you make fun of italy for sucking at war.
Yes both are true and funny. Italy fought the same battle over a dozen times in WW1. The dogger bank incident is very funny.
You are so emotionally invested in the war and your side. But there are many people who are not that involved one way or the other. We can see the reality for the cope.
>even though its demography is fucked
Italy has worse demographic issues. An even lower birthrate, smaller economy.
You go on and on about 16 carriers etc. but none of that matters in this war. Russia isn't fighting any of those carriers anywhere in the world. Nor any of their jets. Russia isn't fighting NATO at all. Sure it's fighting some of their weapons. But they are not endless.
>No russia does not have the ressources for a war,
Well they are currently doing so with the resources they have. It seem like Ukraine is the ones who don't have the material needed to fight.
The article we are discussing is directly related to this lack of manpower and material. How can you say it's the opposite?
The russo japanese war is also very funny. Russia isn't invincible turns out. And then the polish russian war in 1920 and then afghanistan and then the freaking embarassement that was grozny, ww1 literally made russia collapse in on itself. Russia does run out of ressources pretty consistently historically, the idea they have an infinite ammo and manpower glitch is superstition
About demographic, [here ya go :)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia) look at that pyramid, nothing wrong in russia, just a 10 year gap in life expectancy between sexes and 15% more females overall. Russia is in a demographic crises the fact you compare it to italy's shows how little you know (i mean you are talking out of your ass since the start, like that one time you mentionned afghanistan of all conflicts lol). Italy's growth is -0.3% while russia's is -0.4%
And then you have france with +0.3 and us with +0.4
Not only that but russia has a well know issue, ww2 was such a huge blow to the demography, if you wonder why its pyramid looks weird, here ya go. What did you say? Russia can just throw stuff at a problem? Seems like demographer and economist disagree.
No russia does not have the ressourced for a war. Instead of wasting their small gdp and waning population on a conflict with few strategic gains, russia should focus on countering endemic problems. But nooooo war brain rot requires you to kill kill kill kill kill! Who cares if russia will be in the dumps for next decades, it will have obtained glorious victory over jew ukronazis!
Remember what clausewitz said (clausewitz mentionned, take a shot of alcohol) war is an extension of politics, never an end. War is wasteful and a terrible deal. Russia won't be able to build a working carrier (or su 57 or t 14) in the decades to come because the technical and economic side are fucked and corruption is blatant.
>We can see the reality for the cope.
Cope harder my dude. You have the typical war monger brain rot. War is always the worst outcome. Russia will not recover from ukraine for decades to come, in fact it will make pre existing problems worse
Russia is comically small and pathetically weak compared to anybody that isn't a 1/3 world country. 16 carriers just hammers home how hoplessly outgunned it is. India and china dwarf russia, poland or turkey would take russia on no problem right now. The reality is that russia isn't getting any stronger, it's actively getting weaker.
> Russia is comically small and pathetically weak compared to anybody that isn't a 1/3 world country.
Sure it's why I don't have to care or worry about all the fear mongering about if Russia takes Ukraine then it's Poland next then Latvia etc.
The reality is they are not a threat to Europe or north america. So I can sit back and not worry about the wars far from my home.
>The russo japanese war is also very funny. Russia isn't invincible turns out. And then the polish russian war in 1920 and then afghanistan and then the freaking embarassement that was grozny, ww1 literally made russia collapse in on itself.
Yep. The dogger bank incident was part of the japanese Russia war I guess. Even if it was imaginary Japanese boats the Russians fought.
>War is always the worst outcome. Russia will not recover from ukraine for decades to come, in fact it will make pre existing problems worse
Sure. Same is true for Ukraine. Or anyone really. The USA spent trillions in Afghanistan and Iraq. And their country is in a much worse state 20 years later. Huge aging infrastructure problems and no plans to rebuild.
Sure NATO (mostly only the USA) has power projection abilities. But the Russians never prioritized building carriers because it wasn't what they really cared about. When the USA had such a head start they could never catch up. And to what end? They don't police the trade lanes like the USA does.
Russia only cares that nobody invades Russia again. 16 carriers won't be able to do that. With nukes the Russians policy of scorched earth will be even more effective.
>Russians never prioritized building carriers because it wasn't what they really cared about.
That applied to the USSR, modern day russia is good at nothing, none of the new equipement they produce today are actually good (if they even exist in the 1st place).
>With nukes the Russians policy of scorched earth will be even more effective.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a nuclear deterent is for. Nobody wants to use nukes EVER, as a result if the opponent calls your bluff and you don't use nukes, then you might as well not have them. Nukes aren't a solution in isolation, when you don't have the conventional power to enforce your will, you are forced to threaten to nuke everybody every day like north korea or russia, which just sounds hollow because using nukes is such a huge no-no.
>fear mongering about if Russia takes Ukraine
What fear mongering? The main arguments for helping ukraine is that it has the strength to actually beat russia AND that it is the moral thing to do. Even at the worse of the 2023 offensives ukraine still had a positive k/d ratio as informed by the oryx website. What seperates ukraine from victory and loss isn't manpower, or effectiveness, it's unwillingness on the part of western support. Russia has soviet legacy which is finite and ukraine has nato weapons which aren't just better but in continuous production and ramping up.
An attrition fight **favors** ukraine IF western support is maintained. Russia will have more and more difficulties maintaing a large front with less and less equipement of lesser and lesser quality.
Also ukrainian resolve IS stronger than russia's. Ukraine is fighting a defensive war, putin is scared of mobilizing, that's why he is using scraps from prisons. Ukrainians have much higher tolerance than russia does unlike what you've been arguing. Polls have been consistently showing ukrainians are willing to fight until every territory including crimea is retaken. These disagreements on mobilization are a staple of any war, remember the mass migrztion back in 2022 when putin announced mobilisation? That was one hell of a fiasco, but somehow you make it sound better than ukrainians having a mild political disagreement? they all agree on the end goal but have slight disagreement on how to get there.
> What fear mongering?
Every person who claims that we must support Ukraine or Russia will just attack another country and another...
When as you say Russia is not a threat to NATO or Europe in general.
>An attrition fight favors ukraine IF western support is maintained.
Which is already waning. No chance it lasts 10 years.
>Polls have been consistently showing ukrainians are willing to fight until every territory including crimea is retaken.
Then why did they need to lower the conscription age? If they want to fight why do you need to draft them?
You know that retaking Crimea is going to be near impossible. They dont have anything close to what is needed to enter that checkpoint and retake any land.
>Nukes aren't a solution in isolation, when you don't have the conventional power to enforce your will, you are forced to threaten to nuke everybody
Nukes are a solution to the problem Russia had in which countries kept trying to invade them. Nukes are not just a end game. If a country invaded Russia today with troops and tanks then Russia would do as they did in the past withdraw and scorched earth the areas they leave.
I have little doubt they would have any issues using nukes on their own land in order to stop the invading army. Despite the fallout, you are allowed to set off nukes on your own territory.
>Which is already waning. No chance it lasts 10 years.
On what basis? Did this answer come to you in a dream? It won't last if there are more people like you than there are of me. So the solution is to switch side... but you haven't thought that far i guess.
>If they want to fight why do you need to draft them?
ROFLMAO sorry this is too funny.... i can't 🤣🤣🤣 that is actually hilarious. Why won't people join willingly! Man sometime you really out yourself with idiotic takes like this. There are 2 main reason wht. I lezve you to guess them, 1 is piss easy the 2nd is more difficult but if you know at least a little about mobilisation it's manageable.
>You know that retaking Crimea is going to be near impossible.
Ukraine will fall in 3 days to glorious special military operation! Impossible for ruzzia to fall back! You're a russian bot alright lmao. 2 idiotic takes back to back what a treat. Nothing is impossible bro. You're just using russian propaganda talking points. It only takes one pringozhin thunder run, so much could go wrong, russia is NOT a stable country
>Despite the fallout, you are allowed to set off nukes on your own territory.
"One exercise outlining a hypothetical attack by China notes that Russia, dubbed the “Northern Federation” for the purpose of the war game, could respond with a tactical nuclear strike in order to stop “the South” from advancing *with a second wave of invading forces* ."
[from financial times on russian doctrine](https://www.ft.com/content/f18e6e1f-5c3d-4554-aee5-50a730b306b7)
Even in their own document nuking yourself is a no no, you want nukes to disturb supplies and reinforcement you maniac.
> Which is already waning. No chance it lasts 10 years.
>
> On what basis? Did this answer come to you in a dream? It won't last if there are more people like you than there are of me. So the solution is to switch side... but you haven't thought that far i guess.
They have been multiple issues with funding from both the USA and the EU.
How much of your own money are you sending to this war?
A new government in the usa will very likely not keep the same level of funding. And its 50:50 chance of a change.
> If they want to fight why do you need to draft them?
>
> ROFLMAO sorry this is too funny.... i can't 🤣🤣🤣 that is actually hilarious. Why won't people join willingly! Man sometime you really out yourself with idiotic takes like this. There are 2 main reason wht. I lezve you to guess
You sure do sound cute when you use emojis and internet acronyms like a little kid. I know your account is only 12 days old but you must be older then that.
But it is a lot of words you used just to say that nobody wants to get drafted into a war that has no options for them to get out expect die or be critically injured.
> You know that retaking Crimea is going to be near impossible.
>
> Ukraine will fall in 3 days to glorious special military operation! Impossible for ruzzia to fall back! You're a russian bot alright lmao. 2 idiotic takes back to back what a treat. Nothing is impossible bro.
I'm not your bro, buddy.
But seriously cry bot all you like. Tell me how in real life ukraine would be able to mount an invasion of crimea? Knowing what it took in the past, and what ukraine was able to do last summer how do you think it could happen?
>
> Despite the fallout, you are allowed to set off nukes on your own territory.
>
> "One exercise outlining a hypothetical attack by China notes that Russia, dubbed the “Northern Federation” for the purpose of the war game, could respond with a tactical nuclear strike in order to stop “the South” from advancing with a second wave of invading forces ."
>
> from financial times on russian doctrine
>
> Even in their own document nuking yourself is a no no, you want nukes to disturb supplies and reinforcement you maniac.
You link is to a $50 a month paywalled site...
But by your own description it is as i said.
"The north could respond with a tactical nuclear strike in order to stop “the South” from advancing with a second wave of invading forces ."
That sure does sound a lot like targeting reinforcements and supply lines.
Russia will nuke invading armies that cross into russia. Do they want to have to do it to their own land? Not really. But they are being invaded in this scenario. So they will go to the same tactic they always do when invaded.
So in that case any invading army will know they face getting nuked at any time as they slog across siberia.
>How much of your own money are you sending to this war?
Why should we defend czechoslovakia from the germans? this is matter between germans and czechoslovakia! We don't want a ww and the czechs deserved it (they may or may not have been roughs with their german minority), germany is defending itself!
This isn't a matter of money or anything, there's a reason putin is often refered to as putler, i understand you would be pro germans in this situation, but please at least try to conceal your fascistic tendencies.
>"The north could respond with a tactical nuclear strike in order to stop “the South” from advancing with a second wave of invading forces ."
>That sure does sound a lot like targeting reinforcements and supply lines.
Ah yes if you don't read half of the text and nitpick this half, i can make it say what i like. Except i did in fact, add the other half which is says in **exact terms** where the nuke would fall, which is to say on the path of a **"second wave"** . Life of a russian bot, cherry picking and pretending to have a big brain.
>I know your account is only 12 days old but you must be older then that.
Oh no he checked my account 🥺
What can i do against such reckless ad hominem. mom, he said i was 12 days old, such a meanie! I thought you were my bro, bro 😭
>Tell me how in real life ukraine would be able to mount an invasion of crimea
Gooogle karkhiv counter offensive bro
>nobody wants to get drafted into a war
Fantastic you got one of the reason right! Turns out nobody wants to go to war, and russians are no different, if they were, they wouldn't have fled en masse to georgia after putler's announcement of a draft in 2022 about a million did. So brave and accepting of losses these russians.
Also i wonder who forces them ukrainian to fight, zelensky (evil boo) or the literal invader, mother russia (invincible, 3 day special military operation, going according to plan). Surely it's not the invaders fault if ukrainians are fighting? They would give up immediatly if zelensky weren't here to force them to fight (how evil of him). Also the territorial defense force was an all volunteer force btw at the start of the war. Literal militias who used guerilla warfare.
The other point you obviously missed since you know jack and have the warmonger brain rot. Drafting young people means losing potential, 25 yo and lower are still encouraged to study, go to university etc... if you suddenly draft them all up that's potential that may never be realised, welcome to war economics kiddo. Turns out losing people in a war is bad, another reason why your argument that russia supposedly has the ressources to throw away is utterly idiotic. Ukraine is trying to limit the casualties where they're most damaging. Meanwhile ruzzia empties prison because everyone know prisonners are the best source of cannon fodder (based and geneva suggestion pilled).
Cope harder
>This isn't a matter of money or anything
So no you haven't sent any actual support or aid to Ukraine.
>Drafting young people means losing potential, 25 yo and lower are still encouraged to study, go to university etc...
Sure. But the actually smart people left a long time ago. Same as happened in russia.
>which is says in exact terms where the nuke would fall, which is to say on the path of a "second wave" WHY TARGET THE SECOND WAVE IF YOU CAN TARGET THE 1ST ALREADY IN YOUR LANDS?
It's a war games simulation dude. Not real life. But it shows that China thinks they will nuked in response to an invasion. Likely not just once. And it would be no suprise they will also nuke a first wave too. Nothing says they won't. Don't trust a Chinese war games to decide how real life would go.
As you have said there is no need to fear Russia.
They have no abilities outside their small area.
NATO will handle them easily with their jets and 15 carriers.
>But it shows that China thinks
This is a russian document not chinese... it shows what russia thinks... litteracy 100 rofl
This isn't just a single war game. Nowhere is it written in any nuclear doctrine i've ever seen that a country would want to NUKE ITSELF. The closest you get is france nuking west germany in case of russian invasion back in 1970.
>Sure. But the actually smart people left a long time ago. Same as happened in russia.
/!\ Brain damage detected /!\
there are a lot of smart people in both these countries. Ukraine wouldn't be sinking ships left, right and center without its indigenous drone boats (famously low tech). Surprisingly people are attached to their communities, who could've thought.
>So no you haven't sent any actual support or aid to Ukraine.
? What do you mean? This isn't about money, it's about willpower, always has been. Aid packages really aren't draining on anyone's economy, plus weapon manufactury is impossible to accurately put a price tag on. Most price tags on weapon systems you see on wikipedia or are told by 3rd parties are false because they usually take 1 specific contract, which is an indicator but are dependant on a case by case basis and more importantly include useless stuff, like instructors, trainers, ammo, spare parts, sometimes technology transfer etc...
It's all about willpower, nato has (or is in the process to have) the weapons to give to ukraine, and the uk alone has a higher gdp than russia. Money isn't a problem, it's willpower.
You are the problem
>As you have said there is no need to fear Russia.
Depends on who you are, in the EU? Ofc not. In georgia or belarus? Ofc you should be. Russia is a mad dog, weak but unhinged enough that it can bite. Letting russia do as it wants because it's "weak" is insanely idiotic. What if belarus does a revolution like ukraine did? Are you going to ignore it again because russia is "weak"? That makes no sense. You're either dumb or a russian bot. Russia is strong enough to ruin its neighbour's day, that's reason enough to put and end to it.
>litteracy 100 rofl
Buddy, are you going to open an argument by misspelling literacy?
I guess I should be the one rolling on the floor laughing at the irony.
> This isn't about money, it's about willpower, always has been.
So why do they always need more money? Just sounds like your excuse for not giving any actual support to their cause except lip service on Reddit.
>Nowhere is it written in any nuclear doctrine i've ever seen that a country would want to NUKE ITSELF.
Russia would. Why wouldn't they? They have all the extra room to use it on if needed. And your document you sent says they would do it against troops attacking them.
>Russia is strong enough to ruin its neighbour's day, that's reason enough to put and end to it.
Put an end to it in what way? What do you mean by that?
>Buddy, are you going to open an argument by misspelling literacy?
You're not even going to defend your point i see + not my first language + tapped t twice on a touchscreen + cope + mald + L + literacy and spelling don't mean the same thing
>So why do they always need more money?
Idk ever tried buying literally anything?
>your document you sent says they would do it against troops attacking them.
No the document said to attack the second wave, not the first, why? Because it's already in your territory. If you're concerned enough about getting nuked inside russian territory, then you should be even more concerned to get nuked inside your own that's how escalation works and only the french doctrine relies on first strike tactical nukes as a warning. Everyone else says invading them will result in MAD. Whether russia will or will not nuke itself isn't even a relevant question to ask! Invasion is a valid motif for strategic nuclear strike at which point all the bets are off and it's back to rock and stones!
>Russia would. Why wouldn't they?
Okay so you know what we're gonna do? Bring me a sourced document from russia from their own nuclear doctrine (not a random quote, actual doctrine like the one i provided) that says literally that nuking national territory is a thing that would happen.
>Put an end to it in what way? What do you mean by that?
Lol russian bots never fail to deliver XD
I bet you're thinking that i was alluding to destroying russia entirely right now... this is a premium piece of propaganda that nato wants to destroy russia for good, salt its land, balkanize it and irradiate it... it's been going for nearly 3 years.
Only someone with the warmonger brain rot could conceive this. When i said this i never even considered it could be taken like this, but you people are maniacs so you project your own insanity in other people's thought. After all you want a country to nuke itself, i'm really not surprised you reacted like this. I was obviously thinking about putting an end to russian imperialism and nationalism and ousting putin for good since he has gone way past his terms according to russian constitution itself.
> + mald + L + literacy and spelling don't mean the same thing
I am not mald. Are you the one who is mald?
>. If you're concerned enough about getting nuked inside russian territory, then you should be even more concerned to get nuked inside your own that's how escalation works.
Right thats why I said russia would nuke within their own territory. That isnt a escalation in nuclear war because you are not targeting anybody except yourself, and the invading army that is within their own borders. Russia used scorched earth every time they were invaded in the past 200 years.
If you attack another country with nukes that will obviously be an escalation that they wont want. But if they are invaded then the invaders can expect to get attacked with everything russia has.
>Bring me a sourced document from russia from their own nuclear doctrine (not a random quote, actual doctrine like the one i provided)
Sure can it be behind a $50/month paywalled site like the one you provided to ensure nobody actually reads it? I doubt you even read it. No way you are spending $50 a month on a website.
> you people are maniacs so you project your own insanity in other people's thought.
Not you though. You are a totally rational and normal person...
>I was obviously thinking about putting an end to russian imperialism and nationalism and ousting putin for good
In what way do you aim to do this?
>mald.
Mad is slang for mad+bald fyi
>Sure can it be behind a $50/month paywalled site
Btw it's free in my country. If ya got a vpn try that out.
And you still didn't bother to use basic google, instead you're deflecting. white papers for example are freely available official sources on a country's strategic orientation regarding a specific topic. You're ignorant so i might as well give you a nudge. Blabla russia will nuke itself in case of war blabla. Ok prove it now bot
>That isnt a escalation in nuclear war because you are not targeting anybody except yourself,
Someone stabs you, so you take out a grenade and explode the knife that's inside of you. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Yes i am rational, how could you tell? The fact i'm not saying we could nuke ourselves? Or maybe basic understanding of human psychology that nobody wants to go fight? Maybe it is my innate ability to use google or my barely above than average knowledge of official documents? Also the fact i don't lean on fascistic tendencies. Maybe the fact i understand russia has suffered immensely every time it's used scortched earth and continues to?
Although i am replying to a literal russian bot when i know 0 progress are made because like complotists you guys live inside your own world. i'm just human after all, sometimes i do irrational things too.
>In what way do you aim to do this?
What do you think happend to japan, italy and germany bro? Disarming these guys and purging the corrupt higher echelon would be a good start.
Also not allowing putler to come back in charge like... you know... the russian freaking constitution says.
After that it mostly depends on russian themselves if they want to keep living in a hell hole... that's the zctually hard part.
> mald.
>
> Mad is slang for mad+bald fyi
Ah so in a reply about your misspellings you went for some obscure internet slang. Sure good plan there. Also you spelt mald wrong the 2nd time
Someone stabs you, so you take out a grenade and explode the knife that's inside of you. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
No, you're wrong.
Someone is entering my home to *try* and stab me. And they are bringing a lot of backup. So I have to shoot up the entire front room of my house. I might even blow it up with a gernade. I will kill them all but the front part of my house will be very damaged. Likely unusable. But overall good trade for me because people were coming into my home to kill my family.
>Maybe the fact i understand russia has suffered immensely every time it's used scortched earth and continues to?
What do you think the other option was?
Just ask Napoleon or Hitler to kindly disarm and go home?
>What do you think happend to japan, italy and germany bro? Disarming these guys and purging the corrupt higher echelon would be a good start.
Uhh. Ok....
Remember when I asked you how you intend to do that and you got mad and went on and on calling me war monger for even suggesting you meant by force?
...Well now tell me what happened to Germany and Italy and Japan right before they were disarmed?
What are you even suggesting?
And again it goes back to exactly what I am saying. Russia isn't going to let anybody invade them, not to disarm not to let their land be taken over.
If your own article from wherever you live says russia would nuke a 2nd wave of attackers invading country then anyone who tries to invade knows that is the expected outcome.
Mald+ cope + seethe
>Remember when I asked you how you intend to do that and you got mad and went on and on calling me war monger for even suggesting you meant by force?
Littttteracy over 9000
I called a warmonger because you thought i was suggesting destruction of russia. Reading is hard i know
>Someone stabs you, so you take out a grenade and explode the knife that's inside of you. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Still waiting for that source my dude, you're not getting out of this with your usual cope, also thanks for confirming russian people are furniture to you. You don't care if they die, that's the kind of comment that confirm i'm a lot more sane and morally justified because i consider people as actual human being instead of a property you can use as you want.
>If your own article from wherever you live says russia would nuke a 2nd wave of attackers invading their country then anyone who tries to invade knows that is the expected outcome.
Yes that's what we call a nuclear deterrent i don't know what your point is here.
What happend buddy, ran out of juice? I didn't have nearly as many things to say this time around!
> Still waiting for that source my dude, you're not getting out of this with your usual cope,
You haven't provided any quote I can read. You can barely write a sentence. As if you would trust any source I give you, if I sent you allegedly leaked Russian documents you would just cry bot and shill and say you won't read their misinformation.
I don't need to provide anything to you we are having a discussion not trading Russian documents.
>What happend buddy, ran out of juice? I didn't have nearly as many things to say this time around!
We don't all write on this website as a job like you do.
You are clearly very young and think you are smart. But spending so much of your time here isn't going to help Ukraine win anything.
You can set a reminder if you like and we can see how things are going after the summer.
>You haven't provided any quote I can read. You can barely write a sentence. As if you would trust any source I give you, if I sent you allegedly leaked Russian documents like you try to send me, you would just cry bot and shill and say you won't read their misinformation
"i'm a buffoon who is too afraid to do research on my bollocks claim so i'm just looking for a capegoat to avoid actually having to do any work that would immediatly prove i am a buffoon anyway" FTFY
>I don't need to provide anything to you we are having a discussion not trading Russian document
Unsourced and unverifiable evidence is the best evidence amiright? For a russian bot that is.
>Well you ignored when you said you would disarm Russia like Germany Italy and Japan. Well there was only one way that happened. Why didn't you talk about that?
And you ignored me when i talked about... i mean everything, what happend to afghaniqtan, demographics etc... if i were to list all of the dropped points you ignored we'd be here 'til sunrise. You even dropped the point about you considering russian civies like furniture lol.
But on that topic, Italy, japan and germany weren't destroyed. They triggered a fight, peoplz fought back anf they lost the fight they started then got disarmed and now they haven't commited a warcrime in half a century more or less, i say the track record is pretty good and i say we do that again.
>We don't all write on this website as a job like you do.
So why do you keep replying, are you unemployed? Who would even waste their time double checking their spelling on reddit
You are clearly very young and think you are smart. But spending so much of your time here isn't going to help Russia win anything or get you a job.
You can set a reminder if you like and we can see how things are going after the summer, rooting for your next job application brother
Ad hominem is a russian bot's favorite, too bad they can't afford mirrors due to unemployement (oops did a ad hominem too)
> They triggered a fight, peoplz fought back anf they lost the fight they started then got disarmed and now they haven't commited a warcrime in half a century more or less, i say the track record is pretty good and i say we do that again.
Ok so you admit you are saying we should invade Russia to trigger regime change and remove Putin from power. You finally admit you want war in Russia.
>so i'm just looking for a capegoat
The goats are so nice at the cape this time of year...
You again provide me with no sources. So I provide you with the same.
>Who would even waste their time double checking their spelling on reddit
Your phone does it for you...
>rooting for your next job application brother
Thanks. I probably will get a better job that I have now. in a year or two. Likely not this summer.
Hopefully once you get a job you can start playing a video game that isn't cheap Chinese ftp crap.
>Who would even waste their time double checking their spelling on reddit
>Your phone does it for you...
Autocorrect sucks, ain't no way i'm double checking myself for a dunce lik you my guy.
>You again provide me with no sources
I did actually, i checked and turns out the financial times only allows you to check 3 articles per month. You can literally use the wayback machine bro, you're on the internet figure it out or are you some boomer? If you can't figure how to access that on your own you have skill issue, simple as.
Still no source btw
>You finally admit you want war in Russia.
... russia is already at war... 🤡
If they lose that war there there are good chances for putin to get ousted, reduction in armement is already happening as we speak with them lemming charging ukrainian lines.
War between nato and russia is impossible 🤡 russia already is at war. I'm not asking for war i'm constating it already happend 🤡🤡🤡
>Hopefully once you get a job you can start playing a video game that isn't cheap Chinese ftp crap.
Isn't overwatch ftp? Oh but it's not chinese (racist on top of it all i take it?)
> You finally admit you want war in Russia.
>
> ... russia is already at war...
Not in russia... But you dont read so well do you.
>ain't no way i'm double checking myself
I noticed.
>I did actually, i checked and turns out the financial times only allows you to check 3 articles per month.
If you cant be bothered to correct basic spelling mistakes, I am not going to create an account on some random website just to view one article, that you summarized for me. It said russia would nuke an army who tries to invade them. Right?
>Isn't overwatch ftp? Oh but it's not chinese (racist on top of it all i take it?)
In what way do you think something being chinese is racist?
>Not in russia...
So germany wasn't at war in 1914 because the frontline never moved into germany proper? 🤡
>I am not going to create an account on some random website
Dude... you don't know about the wayback machine? It's a free of use archive... you don't need an account. At least use wikipedia when you're about to say stupid stuff like that... that's just sad you know, it's literally the internet's history, it compiles screenshot of millions of webpages over the years
>It said russia would nuke an army who tries to invade them. Right?
Literacy 10^34
>but currently they are winning.
Glorious russia is increasing it's submarine count, yes clearly winning
>its unlikely the russian people will rise up
Google prigozhin.
Putin is totally safe and russia is a perfectly stable country unlike ukraine which will keel over in a heartbeat.
>In what way do you think something being chinese is racist?
"Ew *cheap* chinese stuff"
"Why would you say i'm racist?"
🤡
> "Ew cheap chinese stuff"
Ok sure, I guess china makes superior products and IP. They are very good at making quality stuff on their own right?
>So germany wasn't at war in 1914 because the frontline never moved into germany proper?
I guess when russia loses a few million men and has to sue for peace i will say thats accurate.
>It said russia would nuke an army who tries to invade them. Right?
So yes.
>>It said russia would nuke an army who tries to invade them. Right?
>So yes.
That was your quote 🤡 are there 2 people in your head? Take your schizo pill or go find me an actual source.
>when russia loses a few million men and has to sue for peace i will say thats similar.
So you think germany wasn't at war in ww1 until it lost, gotcha 🤡
>I guess china makes superior products and IP. They are very good at making quality stuff on their own right?
Sarcasm now? You are not beating the allegations my dude.
I encourage you to read the three body problem and other chinese books, it got an ok netflix adaptation if you don't have the attention span. Arts and games aren't industrial products found in your walmart buddy.
We're talking about cultural stuff not politics, bruv
You can dislike russia and still find the pathologic gamed or metro great. Unlike you i don't consider people like furniture and am capable of nuance.
>My family is from China
Is this the famous american "i am 5% X ethnicity" or did you legitimately spend a few years in china?
Regardless your statement is idiotic. Just because your family is from china doesn't disculp you from having an awful take (the american mind cannot comprehend this). So what, i can say mad shit of portugal because i'm half portugese? Being stupid is being stupid, your family background is irrelevant, you can't just say some prejudiced BS and shield yourself from consequences.
Still no source btw
> (the american mind cannot comprehend this)
Are you being racist to Americans? I'm also not from the USA.
>So what, i can say mad shit of portugal because i'm half portugese?
If you want to criticize Portugal for things they did like Macau or keeping their colonies in Africa through war until the 1970s I'm all here for it.
>Is this the famous american "i am 5% X ethnicity" or did you legitimately spend a few years in china?
Again I'm not from the USA. But I still have family in China thank you. Not sure how long you think I need to live there to still count. But I'm sure ive spent more time there then you.
>Still no source btw
Your source proves my point. Unless you don't agree with your earlier claims?
>I'm also not from the USA.
I know it's canada.
>If you want to criticize Portugal for things they did like Macau or keeping their colonies in Africa through war until the 1970s I'm all here for it.
I do. (Classic boohoo muh colonies, as if it was a fringe opinion to hate colonisation)
I also criticize canada for being responsible for the creation of the geneva convention... poor germans... they didn't deserve the canadians... neither did the somalian... you should also take a look at who owns gold mines in africa, they're famously clean well kept and without any problem whatsoever.
So now that the childish name calling on war crimes and colonialism is done what kind of cope will you serve me next.
>Again I'm not from the USA. But I still have family in China thank you. Not sure how long you think I need to live there to still count. But I'm sure ive spent more time there then you.
You said something stupid, being "from china" means nothing. Cringe american thinks his ancestry allows him to say random BS. Saying "i HaVE fAMilY iN cHInA i KnOW bETtEr tHAN yoU" in the 1st place is fundamentally wrong unless you've actually led a life and worked there because you're still relying on hearsay from a 3rd party and an incomplete experience that relies on what is essentially tourism.
It's not about the quantity of time spent there either, it's about the quality (quality in a statistical sense). I also have family in germany, italy and portugal but i don't know jack beyond what they tell me and the few weeks i spend every now and then. Most of what i know still comes from news and my own research. Unless you live in immersion within that country without much external support you don't truly understand how it is to live there. Even if you do, your experience will still vary immensely from that of other people in other parts with other occupations etc... "understanding" is hard, and you don't need it to form an opinion either. But claiming that you do "know better" because of connections is pure sophistry (appeal to authority more specifically)
>Your source proves my point. Unless you don't agree with your earlier claims?
No it doesn't. but if you think it does, finding another that also does should be a cakewalk if that's the truth right?
> They really got you on the highest of copiums huh?
Dude look at the map.
One side got to take all of Crimea with no pushback at all
Then takes a huge chunk of the east of Ukraine.
What world is that a win for Ukraine?
I check the maps pretty often. At the rate this is going your going to see a destructive amount of Russian dead before the war comes to a close, this is going to have long term irreparable damage. And has potential of fully destabilizing the country.
Also secondly, the goal for Ukraine should be to mount enough strategic damage to Russia that they feel compelled to negotiate, given the current rate of conflict and the soon airing f-16s this seems pretty feasible, Ukraine seems to be excellent at shaping operations after all.
Why do you think everything has to be [either "for" or "against"](https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-a-2001-09-21-14-bush-66411197/549664.html) with nothing in-between?
Some people simply describe what they see, just because that might be bad for one side and good for another does not make such *observations* an endorsement of any particular side.
> Why are you so seemingly in support of Russia?
Because anyone who is willing to actually look at the things happening and be honest about it is going to say that russia is winning the war. And around here more people want to wear rose colored glasses vs seeing all the flags.
I can watch a sports game and admit the other team is currently beating my team. Because I can see the score. Doesn't mean I support the other team.
> At least get your figures right if you're going to try and be clever.
>
> And while you're at it why don't you tell us how much of that territory as a percentage Russia has gained since their second invasion in 2022?
Oh so you want to play semantics over a few percent?
Well I guess your right. Ukraine is definitely winning...
The old people defending Ukraine have been doing so well that they retook a percentage of lost land so small it's not going to show up on the graph.
> Seems Ukraine has made better gains with their "old" soldiers
they have been losing territory the entire time lol
>the US did during the entire Vietnam war....
the US could have propped up south vietnam indefinitely if they felt like it
>
Except for those two major offensives last year
[kherson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kherson_counteroffensive?useskin=vector) and[ kharkov were lost in 2022](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kharkiv_counteroffensive?useskin=vector), yall memories are starting to slip again
In contrast to Russia with their impressive successes since November 2022, where they need a year to conquer a small town. Or to put it another way: Russia conquered an impressive 200km² in 2023, just another 200 years and maybe they fully capture Donetsk.
> Or to put it another way: Russia conquered an impressive 200km² in 2023
they dismantled the entire zelensky line. that's like boasting the US only conquered a thin strip of germany when dismantling the siegfried line in 1944 and 1945.
Nice article, but it doesn't make mention of a specific Zelensky Line. Another commenter said it was a fortified line between Soledar and Bakhmut. Would that be incorrect?
>The front line of Bakhmut/Artemovsk – Soledar-Seversk, also known as the Zelensky Line,
ever wonder why the media throws out names of places without showing you a map or a chart of where the ukraine's defenses are? its just emotive propaganda.
While Russia did over-extend past its logistics support in the early stages of the war, overall Russia has captured a large portion of Ukraine, and unfortunately in recent weeks and months, most of the Russian line is advancing along the eastern front using attrition warfare tactics. The southern front is largely static on both sides.
Especially note the large Russian advances past the recently captured fortress cities of Bahkmut and Avdiivka.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375
Like 95% of the territory Russia still holds was captured within the first one/two months of the war.
>Especially note the large Russian advances past the recently captured fortress cities of Bahkmut and Avdiivka.
It's been a year and Russia didn't advance further than 3km from Bakhmut while it took two months for Russia to advance 5km further east from Avdiivka, where they are still stuck in the next line of villages. Russia will probably advance (under heavy casulties) further there considering the next Ukrainian defence line is like 15km away from Avdiivka, however these aren't noteworthy gains.
>fortress cities
Do you mean ruins? No because [this](https://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/europe/manifestations-en-ukraine/en-images-guerre-en-ukraine-la-ville-de-marinka-rayee-de-la-carte-et-symbole-de-la-violence-destructrice-du-conflit_5697812.html) is what marinka looks like after being fought over for 9 years. The only thing that makes these city "fortresses" are the rubbles and the defenders creating DIY tunnels and chokepoints. Yes marinka has fallen, what? 4 months ago. Does it have any major impact? I mean just look at it. All these so called city "fortresses" are minor settlements mean to hold back ennemy offensives for as long as humanely possible. What happen after you take one? You make another 8000 inhabitant city a city "fortress"
>in recent weeks and months, most of the Russian line is advancing along the eastern front
Always a good question to ask, "what is the price of a mile". [here](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682.amp) is the comparison of the front between 2022 at the end of the successful ukrainian counter offensives and 2024. You are free to bring your own microscope.
Arguing that russia is making progress now is like arguing ukrain was making progress during the 2023 offensives. This isn't a success, this a stalemate, minor progress like this is insignificant.
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>they have been losing territory the entire time lol
You apparently have not looked at a war map. Ukraine halted the invasion, and then pushed Russia out of Kherson, Kharkiv, and the area around Kyiv. After Ukraine finishes those offensives, the line hasn't moved more than about 10 miles in any direction, and the conquered land is all been rendered completely worthless by the fighting.
At Russia's current rate of advancement of less than a mile a month on their best front, they will be back to Kyiv in a few decades. No one has lost any territory of note since the first Ukrainian offensive. It's just slow and grinding attritional warfare that looks more like World War I with significantly deadlier weapons.
It's not really a territory battle at this point. The line is functionally static. It's just a question of will at this point. Both nations are moving at full speed towards total demographic and economic destructions. It's really just a question of which nation's economic and political system is going to collapse under the weight of mass death and ruination first.
>I don't anything at all about World War II and want to refute my own point, and so I want to confidently demonstrate this by saying something verifiably stupid and wrong!
-dump_reddits_ipo, 2024
At no point during the Second World War, post-D-Day, was the US or its allies in Europe moving at less than a mile per *month.* Besides that, that is an incredibly disingenuous comparison. Russia is not remotely at the economic or industrial capacity the US was by the time of the D-Day landings, and Ukraine is nowhere near as spent as Germany was. Nevermind that Ukraine is fighting with eye-watering amounts of material and financial support from NATO allies, and hasn't been leveled by five years of mass bombing.
Are you people still trying to deny Ukraine's nazi problem in April of 2024? You know we all figured it out when we realized they can't stop posting pictures of themselves wearing deaths heads and black suns, right?
I live in Central Oregon and I've seen a couple of people out in public wearing Azov Brigade merch, open displays of Nazi imagery, but I guess because it's Blue and Yellow people don't mind?
Noone is denying it. Nationalism always rises due to war.
I don't recall Ukraine putting out any cutting heads of people, or having people like Tesak? I do know Russia does, at least Tesak is dead - which means, that they can handle it themselves - why aren't Ukraine allowed to sort their own problems then?
Denmark has nazis too. Are we gonna get invaded as well?
>Noone is denying it. Nationalism always rises due to war.
The nationalism existed far far before the SMO. It has been a US project to radicalize and create Ukrainian nationalists since before the CIA even existed
Related CIA synopsis:
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/STUDIES%20IN%20INTELLIGENCE%20NAZI%20-%20RELATED%20ARTICLES_0015.pdf
That "[straight misinformation](https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2018-12-27/ty-article/ukraine-designates-national-holiday-to-commemorate-nazi-collaborator/0000017f-f310-d223-a97f-ffdd21e50000)" was even peddled by a [Ukrainian ambassadors to Germany](https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-dismisses-controversial-ambassador-to-germany/) who stands by it to this day.
Not *the* Ukraine, it’s just Ukraine. They also prefer you spell it Kyiv and not Kiev, and Lviv and not Lvov, as the latter two are the Russian transliterations
Those are english transliterations. I aint changing the spelling used for centuries just cause of politics. There are things more timeless than that in this world
Do you call Turkey Turkiye? Or does it take a war for you to actually listen to their request?
Plus I was friends with a few Ukrainians here in the balkans and they hate Putin and Russia and have lost a lot due to the invasion, but guess what they still call it Lvov and Kiev
If Turkey were to enter a war with its former colonial overlord that named it Turkey and said “actually, we prefer Türkiye” then yeah, that’s a good enough reason for me to call them Türkiye. Honestly I should be calling them Türkiye, but I fully admit the reason I don’t is to troll Turkish nationalists. Are you willing to argue that the people you’re defending also just trying to troll?
Besides, do you still refer to Romania as Rumania? Iran as Persia? The Netherlands as Holland? Maybe even Czechia as Bohemia? Iran has been Persia for thousands of years, but they preferred Iran so that’s what we call them
Not understanding the “gotcha” you’re going for here? Yes, genociding a people and stealing their land was bad. Makes it a bit weird that you understand it’s bad in America, but you’re defending it happening in Ukraine
Who knew that the moral highground is located on-top of a bunch of [dead brown people](https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/russia-ukraine-war-racism-of-western-media-is-shameful-1.86103686).
Taking land from the natives was based, I’m glad we did it. Taking half of Mexico - also based.
Conquest in general will always be awesome, when you’re on the winning side. This is the human condition, I for one embrace it.
the ukraine is not being genocided, and if it was america isn't doing shit to stop it there (or in gaza) either. the overblown and frenzied rhetoric surrounding the ukraine does not match the americans' contributions (cast-offs, broken vehicles, old stock) to their struggle.
Yeah, the Russians are claiming the Ukrainian culture doesn’t exist and kidnapping children to raise as Russian, and annexing the country bit by bit. I totally believe they aren’t genociding them, 100%
>the Americans aren’t stopping genocide
Am I the State Department? I do think we should send more aid to Ukraine and less to Israel, I don’t get how this is relevant in the slightest
> the Russians are claiming the Ukrainian culture doesn’t exist
that's like someone from texas claiming boston culture doesn't exist. doesn't rise to the level of genocide, just an ad hom
> kidnapping children to raise as Russian
should war orphans in russian held territory not be evacuated to their relatives in russia? risible "evidence" of genocide considering the alternative is to keep them in battlefield for woke human rights purposes.
That’s the analogy you went for? Damn, that speaks volumes.
No, its closer to someone from Texas claiming Canadian culture doesn’t exist, and that America has the lawful right to conquer Canada because they’re just confused Americans and also Nazis and also joining the CSTO and
I’m sure that’s what the Russian propaganda says. There shouldn’t be any war orphans in the first place.
[you mean these orphans btw?](https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/ukrainian-children-kidnapped-russian-soldiers-united-nations/)
> Ilya was just 9 years old when he became an orphan. He watched his mother die from a shrapnel wound to the head. A neighbor buried her in the backyard. Ilya was also hit by the shrapnel and his leg was badly wounded. Traumatized and unable to walk, he said Russian soldiers took him to a hospital where he was operated on without anesthesia. Yet amid the trauma, his doctors coached him to praise Russia.
> “You must say, not glory to Ukraine, but glory to Russia,” Ilya said his doctors told him.
Taking real good care of them, I’m sure
>Kira, Ilya and Sasha's grandparents shared details of how they came to rescue the children, and mentioned receiving some Ukrainian government help but CBS News cannot independently confirm those details.
whoops, all wartime propaganda! they're being paid to tell stories and CBS admits it!!!
> If Turkey were to enter a war with its former colonial overlord that named it Turkey and said “actually, we prefer Türkiye” then yeah, that’s a good enough reason for me to call them Türkiye.
Pure cuckoldry lmao
Don’t get what there is to explain. Putin justified himself to Tucker Carlson by arguing that Ukraine has historically been ruled by Russians. [Russification even has its own (very long) Wikipedia page.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine) There’s a reason most of Eastern Europe grew tired of their Russian overlords
God almighty, he argued that Russia and Ukraine *were one*, not that Russians ruled Ukraine but that Ukrainians *are* Russian.
Kieven Rus, the early predecessor to Russia, how would one "Russify" that? Russia and Ukraine are completely intertwined, there was no colonisation you are very confused and wrong.
on the plus side, if the confederacy lived to make it to the present day redditors would be tripping over their dicks to call the confeds their own ethnic group with unique cultural practices and traditions.
> Besides, do you still refer to Romania as Rumania? Iran as Persia? The Netherlands as Holland? Maybe even Czechia as Bohemia?
Yes to all of them, except I call Romania Wallachia.
Just like real pronouns, its not hard to call countries what they want to be called, and making a conscious effort to ignore them is either a political statement or a dick move
Yeah I mean even with just a brief glance through your profile there are countless examples where you mention Germany—why aren't you calling it Deutschland
Are you trying to make some kind of political statement or are you just an asshole
Yeah I hate to break it to you man but "I'm only doing it because the Ukrainian MFA spent shitloads of U.S. money running a giant astroturfing campaign" isn't the own you think it is
Why would any sane person give a fuck what Ukrainians want? It’s been Kiev in English for centuries. If Italians want me to start spelling Florence Firenze, I’ll tell those pastacels to duck right off. And I actually *like* Italians.
>Not *the* Ukraine, it’s just Ukraine
They know that but they support russia's invasion of Ukraine so they think they're being clever.
>They also prefer you spell it Kyiv and not Kiev, and Lviv and not Lvov, as the latter two are the Russian transliterations
Same as above...
It's just a weak bait the pro invasion crowd try. That and their memes, lol.
>They also prefer you spell it Kyiv and not Kiev, and Lviv and not Lvov, as the latter two are the Russian transliterations
[you know what the ukraine is? it's a sitting duck. the ukraine is weak, it's feeble!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teSXcJlpMl8)
Russia doesn't have to worry about population problems if they win the war and take over the population of Ukraine. They will have a new workforce, land, and income source. That is part of why they started this war to begin with.
Ukraine on the other hand isn't going to grow in size, population or area if they win this war. That is unless there is a pretty harsh treaty at the end of all this and Russia is really kicked in the balls.
> Russia should be too, but for some reason they're still conscripting 18 year olds.
It's been that way since WW2. But it's the same rules as say, South Korea which has similar conscription ages and lengths.
The problem is too many Redditors have the wrong idea what "conscription" actually means in countries with mandatory military service, even those at conflict.
Germany still had mandatory conscription when it sent the Bundeswehr to Afghanistan, but the soldiers going there weren't conscripts, yet conscripts still helped on the logistics end in Germany to support the mission.
That logistics part always makes up the biggest part of manpower requirement, not the actual fighting troops.
> before everyone starts claiming that Ukraine are conscripting 16 year olds
No need to conscript them when they are [volunteered](https://youtu.be/jiBXmbkwiSw?).
> Russia should be too, but for some reason they're still conscripting 18 year olds.
Russia has [nearly 4 times the population of Ukraine](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL?locations=UA-RU), while Ukraine has been mobilizing and conscripting through several waves since 2014.
It's a numbers game Russia has been winning for a while and is now doubling down on it by drafting more than Ukraine will be able to draft.
Russia’s [demographic pyramid](https://www.populationpyramid.net/russian-federation/2023/) is a nightmare, what are you talking about?
Ukraine at least has no choice in the matter, but Russia really is just choosing to throw its future away.
[Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Russia_Population_Pyramid.svg/1920px-Russia_Population_Pyramid.svg.png) is Russias. Take a good look.
Now [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Ukraine_2023_population_pyramid.svg/1920px-Ukraine_2023_population_pyramid.svg.png) is Ukraines.
I can't say for sure, but I would assume it was because of how hard Ukraine was hit by the USSR dissolution as well as the corruption and exploitation afterwards. Every post-soviet country had some level, and Russia was pretty bad too. But Russia "stabilized" under Putin, even if he is corrupt and awful, stability is still good.
Oh Russia doesn't give a shit, tossing their entire male population at a problem has been their national strategy since the tsars. It's why they're such a major threat still because they can win wars via attrition by being willing to sacrifice everybody.
A small portion so far. I wasn't being literally in regards to Ukraine but in how far they're willing to go as proven historically. That's why Ukraine needs so much support, Russia will throw more meat into the grinder without a second thought and they have a lot of flesh to toss.
Oh Russia doesn't give a shit, tossing their entire male population at a problem has been their national strategy since the tsars. It's why they're such a major threat still because they can win wars via attrition by being willing to sacrifice everybody.
I’m sorry, you must be under the impression that war for profit helps us and our country. The wealthy are world citizens. They don’t give a fuck about Americans. You’re celebrating the fact that you’re a chump and a fool.
Then you are a part of the leech class that lives comfortably on the back of working class Americans. You are a worthless drain on hard working men and women.
Suuuure bud. You are the definition of calloused-handed working class.
Jokes aside, i completely forget why I’m conversing with a Conservative boomer who thinks they’re working class.
I’m neither a boomer, nor do I pretend to be some sort of blue collar worker. I am an engineer by trade, and have done all right for myself. Like I said - a run of the mill middle class professional.
So once again we have a white privileged conservative who benefited from a system built specifically for him, and is happy to support it as long as his specific group benefits while all others suffer. Scum.
Only the fringe of the fringe would call me a conservative lmao. We all live in a society and make do with the options we are give - getting a technical education and leveraging it into a career is within the means of just about anyone.
It's a NATO win still because it means grinding Russia down using these people that were not very important.
However horrible that is this is what it looks like I guess. They're just bleeding Russia, using this proxy country as a lancet.
Russia can stop the needless grinding any second they want to. Blaming NATO for the meat grinding while actively invading is such a new extreme of Russian crybully mentality
Russia is doing what Putin wants - expanding the country border into Ukraine. A lot of people on both sides are dying, but they don't care for the losses of life, no one of importance died.
Russia is also doing what NATO wants - destroying its tanks and ships and planes and its own reputation in the West and so on and so forth. A lot of people dying are not an issue, they are not important lives, they are enemy and\\or cannon fodder. I'm sure they also want Russia to lose its influence in Asia and Africa for the same reason - line goes up.
As far as I see, in this war, lives lost are just a collateral for both sides. A lot of people in this thread mention how it's the western advisors and politicians that were shooting down any and all discussions about peace talks, not Russians. Like there was a peace deal that was 90% done and then one of the Western big names drop into Kyiv and the peace deal is out of the window (pun intended).
The whole "grinding Russia down" is an absurd fantasy. Russia hasn't even lost 1% of it's military age population. Not even half a percent. And they seem perfectly content shifting to a military economy.
They failed, but this was still NATO's aim. And as long as the war continues they can keep lying to themselves that Russians fighting is grinding Russia down. Keeps the funding from Congress flowing.
I fetched they lost a lot, but I would say it's nothing that totally compromised their military. Particularly considering they are spewing hundreds if not thousands of armoured vehicles and several battleships per year.
population of russia: 144.2 million
population of ukraine: 38 million
They have over 3x the total population, they have plenty of people to throw into the war.
I don't know why you think that was some type of gotcha or something, people keep forgetting russia is rather large and dominates Ukraine in terms of population.
Now compare casualties: https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-troops-killed-zelenskyy-675f53437aaf56a4d990736e85af57c4#:~:text=A%20U.S.%20intelligence%20report%20declassified,war%2C%20according%20to%20the%20report.
only 31k causalities in two years, yet they are lowing the age for the draft and hurting for bodies.
Hummm.... Something doesn't smell right, but ya, I'm sure you can 100% trust ukraine to put out real numbers.
You are literally in the comments saying maybe Ukraine should negotiate. If it was you country getting invaded would u want to negotiate? Did negotiating with Hitler yield results? Has Putin suddenly set aside his imperialist aspirations?
You don't realize that if Ukraine doesn't eventually come to the table, Russia will fucking erase Ukraine from existence. You might be an ally of Ukraine, as most of us are, but you're too ignorant to realize your hawkishness will lead to Ukraine ceasing to exist.
Without direct western intervention, Ukraine will run out of people to fight before the enemy. How you can't see that is fucking insane.
Either they come to the table with NATO pledging to fight Russia if a treaty is broken or Europe and the US put boots on the ground. That's not a pro-Russian take. It's the truth, and our intelligence is even acknowledging it at this point.
Ukraine has morality on it's side, but that's not enough.
Stop calling people pro-Russia for disagreeing with you.
You seem so sure and paint such a dire picture as if Ukraine hasn't been defending itself for 2 years successfully and several factors are still in play that could drastically change the course of the war. Calling me hawkish for wanting Ukraine to win is also insane, I'm sure you would have been one of the Brits in WW2 saying we should make peace with Hitler.
"Russia will erase Ukraine of they don't negotiate" is also a laughably moronic take. They've been trying for 2 years now if u haven't noticed. But somehow you know this for sure. You talk as if the things you say are fact, which they aren't only the Ukrainians know how long they can go on and they seem to think they can hold so I'm gonna go with them instead of some armchair general like yourself.
>several factors are still in play that could drastically change the course of the war
Doesn't change the eventual attrition of their forces. They face an overwhelming force, purely in size. Ignoring that that force is making more arms now than the west is forcasted to make in 5 years. Numbers do not lie. Emotion does. This is not about making peace with Putin. It's about conserving life.
When Ukraine loses everything and is left with nothing, people like you will be to blame.
So focused on facts yet somehow you can only think of reasons why Ukraine will falter. No mention of the unsustainable losses Russia incurs as it depletes its Soviet era equipment, a lot of which it does not have the means to replace, its already difficult energy export issues being exacerbated by Ukrainian attacks on refineries, Ukraine itself making large strides in terms of war production and drone technology, or their general inability to take territory at a rate that could cause a collapse of the front, instead taking months to take towns like Avdiivka or Bakhmut that turn out to not be as strategically important as Russia makes them out to be.
The Russian state is the anti-thesis to "conserving life" as you put it so capitulating to them doesn't conserve anything. If Ukraine losses it's on Putin, Russians, and the west for not doing more, not me. The fact that you would even say it would be the fault of people like me tells me everything I need to know about you.
As for the factors that could change the course of the war, just saying they won't matter because attrition is a dogshit argument. They would obviously slow attrition for Ukraine and have the potential to drastically increase attrition for Russia.
Also read the comment chain of the guy I was calling pro Russian and you will see it was justified.
Asking for negotiation is being pro Russia now? Did you read my comment? I said negotiate territory in exchange for NATO membership.
How do you think war will end? This is not a video game. No one is getting wiped out.
There have been zero calls for negotiations from the Ukrainians themselves and the Russians would only negotiate if Ukraine cedes a shit ton of land. So it appears you are advocating for a nice easy way out of this debacle for Putin while I am in line with Ukraines stance on the issue. You are right it's not a video game, people are out there dying to protect their country and you are here advocating for a "solution" that would cheapen the sacrifices so many Ukrainians have made.
Ukraine has literally outlawed negotiations.
In your world, how do you think war will end considering you are so against negotiations. And please give a practical way not make believe way like Ukriane capturing Crimea or Russia taking on Kiev. None of that is happening. So, without negotiations, how do you imagine this war to end.
Ukrainians still overwhelmingly support their leaders and there are no protests for negotiations.
In reality Ukraine is playing for time, they will grind down Russia with what they have while they wait for the f16s, the millions of shells the Czechs and the Baltic states are procuring and for the US to get their head out of their ass. There are of course no givens but to negotiate would mean pass up on several possibilities that could give Ukraine a much more favorable outcome on the battlefield and in future negotiations if they would want to go down that route. Thank God we've got leaders with a bit more steel to them in Ukraine cause you guys whether pro Russian or not just advocate for a lay down and take it strategy.
>Ukrainians still overwhelmingly support their leaders and there are no protests for negotiations.
Because protests for negotiation are illegal. There are countless videos of ukr saying something about negotiations and next day, sbu pays them a visit and forces them to do an apology video.
There is a reason why handicapped are being grabbed from the street and send to fight after 3 days of training.
You didn't answer how this war will end tho. Neither F16 nor millions of arty shells will achieve the laid out winning conditions of Ukraine. None of these assets are wonderweapon.
Lmao there it is, blatant Russian talking points, thanks for confirming.
So you are saying that Russia is taking this many losses to a bunch of handicapped Ukrainians with no training. I knew the Russian army was full of morons but I didn't know it was this bad haha.
I didnt say they were wonder weapons, I said they are large factors that can influence the course of the war. But I'm really happy for you that you know everything for sure and how it will all play out.
Holy cow the level of dilusion is something else. There are literal news reports of people with no hands being drafted. Videos of people with autism in the trench. Alot of reports on it yet you live in a fake reality where that doesn't happen?
I seriously recommend you see a psychologist because there is something seriously wrong if you just ignore reality.
Lmao dudes with no hands are giving the business to Russia.
So many claims, so few links. You really ought to try harder, also a tip for the future, losing your cool like that isn't a good look.
Tankies and ruzbotz (I'm not sure if those even are distinct groups tbh) are slowly taking over. I've been participating in this subreddit for about 4 years now, almost from the very start, but in last year it became almost unusable. Flood of Chinese news and Indian news didn't kill the subreddit, but flood of tankies just might. This is evidenced by sorting by "top" in "all time" timeframe. Most recent post in top 25 of all time is 11 months old, which would roughly coincide with flood of ruzbots which seems to have started about a year ago.
Opinion? People supporting invasion of Ukraine don't have different "opinion". They have different morals, evil ones, to be specific. Fact that people like you aren't ashamed of themselves IS horrifying.
I don't think many are pro, rather, realistic.
What you see mostly on reddit ignores the realities of the situation. It's dire straits at the moment. Saying so is not supporting that reality. But Reddit acts like stating an opinion contrary to the popular, is support of the unpopular.
Ukraine has had a mountain to climb since it was clear this wasn't an in-and-out conflict. Manpower is always the largest, least flexible hurdle.
There's a difference between criticism and parroting said propaganda points:
"Think of the children! Ukraine must negotiate with Russia before it's too late!" Are all the people in this thread suggesting that Ukraine needs to negotiate with Russia after they've literally broken the Budapest Memorandum, the thing that was meant to protect Ukraine, invaded the country in 2014 while denying it, even using "little green men" (LOL), funding separatist groups, and strong arming Ukraine into the Minsk agreement *which the Russian funded DPR then broke?*
These people in this thread are very good comedians. This is parroting Russian talking points without shame.
Lmao yeah literally the point.
But everytime someome criticizes ukraine...its always "russian propaganda" lol.
You cant fool all the peoole all time, with this crap
Half of my family is Ukrainian by blood.
Most of that side of my family died during the pogroms and the holocaust. Russians killed my ancestors.
I'm just not a halfwit pushing a blind narrative like you are.
Nah, you definitely are. This sub has always had a lot of… *alternative* viewpoints, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I didn’t think the Russia dickeating was this bad
All non propaganda rag publications have been outlawed in Ukraine. You write anything government doesn't like, you get put on their journalist kill list.
Conscription should be banned nowadays. If your citizens don't want to fight for their country even if you offer money and other advantages, perhaps that country is not worth fighting over.
Or they could give their citizens a good reason (money or not wanting to live under a country that's attacking) to fight. Why should people be forced to fight for a goverment that doesn't care about you?
What is to be done in cases where authoritarians will use conscription anyways despite any laws or bans to form much larger armies than compliant states and act aggressively towards them? Your ideals are good but idealism must be tempered towards reality.
An individual may survive by fleeing but a people as a whole, Ukrainians for example, will face untold devastation if they do not act in self defense in the face of agression. Additionally, aggressors will not stop if no one resists their agression. Rather, they are likely to take advantage of a lack of resistance and continue their agression.
Remember proud articles about patriotic children making bandera smoothies (molotov coctails, weapons) for the war effort? Posted by Ukraine, not Russia.
wtf comment is that? just now they have lowered the age for draft the whole lot of two years, from 27 to 25, while being in a war about the sheer existence of their country since 2022.
so sure, following that formula, they'll drum up <18 year olds in year 13 of the war.
fucking "child soldiers", gtfooh.
Russia would just block Ukraine's NATO membership with one of their proxies like Hungary or Slovakia. Same goes with the EU. We've already seen how difficult one country can make it join NATO with Sweden and Turkey. And when Russia restarted the war if it looked like these hurdles were going to be overcome, Western support would likely be less than what it is today.
Yes, and so does Russia who can offer those two countries more to block NATO membership than Ukraine can offer to join NATO. Turkey was for example able to block Sweden for two years and that was just because of their own personal vendetta. Two years is more than enough time for Russia to muster another significant force and attack Ukraine again, thus putting off NATO membership indefinitely.
??? Putin's entire sthick was "oooh no muh nato-enlargement yoU pROmiSED uSSSSSS" and now he's gonna accept any real enforcement of a deal?
Yeah no, not happening. This is why negotiations are more an insult than an attempt at peaceful resolution.
I think they go on until either there is a deal is made or one side basically wins. I don't think Ukraine will win in the sense of total victory - all of Ukraine liberated. I also think they won't lose, either, if they rely less on offensives and more on making it as costly as humanly possible for Russia to take every meter of land, more like Vietnam or Afghanistan.
They're in a god awful position to negotiate now, it makes no sense to, since Russia, again will never accept a deal where it's externally enforced. If the goal is Ukrainian sovereignty, which seems to be what the country desires above all else, then the most logical thing is most likely to keep fighting, and make it as politically nonviable as possible for Russia, keep funding these separatist groups inside of the Russian border regions who attack the Russian army, and strike oil refineries, etc.
Then it just comes down to who wins long term, I happen to think it won't be Russia, it mostly depends on the US presidential election (remember Zelensky is in big part why one of the impeachment happened... he won't be good to Ukraine) and Europe's response to Trump should he be elected.
Striking deep in Russia does nothing. It just puts extra pressure. That's it. It is pretty evident that Russia is committed to this war. Idk how you think Ukraine could win a war of attrition. Russia hasn't even mobilized half of its reserves yet. They aren't running out of troops and equipment. Ukraine on the other hand has to rely on third party for support.
It will remain a stalemate with some back and forth. Trump or Biden doesn't matter.
Ukraine defines it goal as 1991 border which isn't achievable. Only way to end the war is negotiate under favourable conditions. Both Ukraine and Russia have ridiculous terms rn. After Ukr backed out from last negotiations, it'll be even tougher to make a deal .
Realistically, how do you see the war ending.
1. Putin has been avoiding mobilization at all costs since the first one, since it was incredibly unpopular, and after the terrorist attack I would suspect he's contrary to perhaps popular belief - actually on thinner ice. The whole deal he has had with the Russian people is to make their economy better, safety better, and to not send their kids off to war. He's literally failing all of the above, and as I see it right now what's gluing this ship together is his/his intelligence services ability to control information and the people through said information, but it won't last forever.
2. The question of troop numbers mostly comes down to attacking or defending. Even if russia has let's say 5x as many available men to be conscripted (which again I know would be VERY unpopular) if Ukraine is fighting on the defense, it goes a very long way to preserving numbers, this ties into point 3
3. NATO can outproduce Russia to a hilarious degree, the question is just if we're gonna choose to or not, this is what I'm afraid of, but honestly I think we will at least match Russia, question is just when.
Finally, to answer your question I think the goal is an incredibly long winded stalemate over years which sees Russia's economy decline due to sanctions and attacks on energy revenue sources, while the west supports Ukraine (I do genuinely think we will). At the same time we want Russia to suffer politically because of all the dead young men returning in bodybags. Eventually Putin will die of old age/be overthrown, or most likely be forced to negotiate to be able to claim some kind of victory, this would be very difficult, but my point is that even in this case, the leverage that Ukraine would have sure as hell would beat what they have today.
There are a lot of IFs, in this scenario, just like in any other, but I do think this is the most likely. I don't think it should be underestimated how stubborn and vengeful Ukrainians are right now, they'll basically fight no matter what, even if they're mostly occupied in the future I doubt there will be peace, but I hope it doesn't come to that point.
Striking deep in Russia does nothing. It just puts extra pressure. That's it. It is pretty evident that Russia is committed to this war. Idk how you think Ukraine could win a war of attrition. Russia hasn't even mobilized half of its reserves yet. They aren't running out of troops and equipment. Ukraine on the other hand has to rely on third party for support.
It will remain a stalemate with some back and forth. Trump or Biden doesn't matter.
Ukraine defines it goal as 1991 border which isn't achievable. Only way to end the war is negotiate under favourable conditions. Both Ukraine and Russia have ridiculous terms rn. After Ukr backed out from last negotiations, it'll be even tougher to make a deal .
Realistically, how do you see the war ending.
I agree, the Russians should pack up and leave so Ukrainians can live in peace. That’s your boy Putin’s call though, and he doesn’t seem to want to make it…
Literally this same moron I usually support Russia but shit like this makes me so embarrassed. I used to make fun of americans filling with bloodthirsty rage when 9/11 happened, but turns out Russia does the same](https://old.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1bngmys/vladimir_putin_begins_operation_blame_ukraine/kwir7ot/)
> This is coming after the new general (previous purged general was saying Ukraine had neither the manpower/ weapons) said Ukraine doesn't need more men.
Yep. [As I said](https://old.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1br1kz9/kievs_top_general_says_ukraine_needs_fewer_troops/kx7zb4x/), Syrsky was lying.
Unless Kiev intends to surrender, it has to mobilize a lot of soldiers. It should compensate both for having less heavy weapons than before, and for larger numbers of enemy troops it is facing (in 2022 it was less than 200k; today it seems to be over 400k, if not over 600k).
That wasn't my comment you are quoting.
[Kiev's top general says Ukraine needs fewer troops than expected](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kyivs-top-general-says-ukraine-needs-fewer-troops-than-expected-2024-03-29/)
Syrsky is a yes-man, exactly why Zaluzhny was sacked. He asked for mobilization much quicker and with wider age range. Also advocated withdrawal from Bakhmut and Avdeevka.
Syrsky is a yes-man, exactly why Zaluzhny was sacked. He asked for mobilization much quicker and with wider age range. Also advocated withdrawal from Bakhmut and Avdeevka.
Thing that happened under communism like the government making it illegal to think bad thoughts, are now happening in NATO countries.
Call it whatever you want it was bad when Stalin did it and it's bad when NATO countries do it.
But your crazy if you think people don't associate the policies of these countries under communism with the leaders who implemented them
Going to be unpopular, we will also see the tankies jump on this as a sign of imminent collapse, but given what is at stake, this is a prudent move.
Realistically in a fight for national survival, a lower limit of 25 is still pretty lenient compared to historical examples.
> Going to be unpopular,
Are you begging for karma? Because that is how people beg for karma.
You aren't suggesting anything remotely unpopular, you are saying exact same thing most of reddit supports *psychotically*, without even bothering to assess facts.
> we will also see the tankies jump on this as a sign of imminent collapse, but given what is at stake, this is a prudent move.
> Realistically in a fight for national survival,
Are you saying it is realistic for Kiev to win on the battlefield?
If it isn't, then what is the point of feeding people into meatgrinder?
>then what is the point of feeding people into meatgrinder?
NATO feels this sacrifice is better then the Russians mobilizing a larger fighting force when the big war they they are really pushing for comes around.
> You aren't suggesting anything remotely unpopular, you are saying exact same thing most of reddit supports *psychotically*, without even bothering to assess facts.
You are in different subreddits then. This might be a very popular view among the fascist larping war hawks in r/Europe, but its much less popular in some woke canadian / american sub
#####	
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> # [Zelensky signs several laws on mobilization, making younger men eligible for draft](https://kyivindependent.com//826)
>
>
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> Support independent journalism in Ukraine. Join us in this fight.
>
>
>
> President Volodymyr Zelensky signed three laws introducing changes to mobilization, according to the website of Ukraine's parliament on April 2.
>
> Zelensky approved laws to lower the **[maximum age](https://itd.rada.gov.ua/billInfo/Bills/Card/41904)** of compulsory military training from 27 to 25, allowing younger men to be mobilized, create the **[online register](https://itd.rada.gov.ua/billInfo/Bills/Card/42801)** for conscripts, and cancel the "**[partially eligible](https://itd.rada.gov.ua/billInfo/Bills/Card/43329)**" status in the military medical examinations.
>
> Ukraine's government aims to update the legal framework around mobilization in order to ramp up its number of available troops in 2024.
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> Ukraine's parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, is now considering a new draft of the mobilization law after its initial, [**contentious**](https://kyivindependent.com/parliament-returns-mobilization-bill-to-government-for-revision/) version was withdrawn. More than 4,000 amendments to the bill have been [****submitted****](https://kyivindependent.com/head-of-zelenskys-faction-reveals-how-mobilization-bill-may-change-before-second-parliament-reading/) since its passing in the first reading.
>
> The Verkhovna Rada voted in May 2023 to lower the maximum age of compulsory military training to 25. Only men who are over the age of compulsory military training can be mobilized for the war effort.
>
> According to the [Defense Ministry](https://www.mil.gov.ua/news/2023/05/04/udoskonalennya-vijskovogo-obliku-prizovnikiv-trivae-navit-v-umovah-voennogo-stanu/), lowering the age of compulsory military training will reduce unnecessary expenses and allow more men who are fit for military service to be mobilized.
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> The Verkhovna Rada also approved a law on March 21 that cancels the "partially eligible" status in the medical reports, which indicates certain health issues and allows conscripts to be exempt from specific kinds of military service.
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> From April 2, there will be only two categories in the medical reports, "eligible" and "non-eligible." The person who was previously examined as "partially eligible" must be re-examined.
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> The conscripts can also go through 12-month treatment without mandatory medical examination, be exempted from serving due to the need to take care of sick children under the age of 14 years old, and go on a vacation after childbirth or getting wounded, according to the newly introduced law.
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> The law on the online [**register**](https://kyivindependent.com/tag/mobilization/) of conscripts is "vital for Ukraine's capabilities" and will allow the gathering, processing, and use of military information to be quicker, the **[ministry](https://www.mil.gov.ua/news/2024/01/16/verhovna-rada-ukraini-najblizhchim-chasom-rozglyane-zakonoproekt-%E2%84%9610062-shho-rozblokue-czifrovizacziyu-ukrainskoi-armii/)** said in January.
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> The law aims to improve the military records of recruits, reservists, and conscripts and to create a system of online documents certifying the military register status.
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> [Zelensky signs decree on transferring some conscripts to reserve in spring 2024
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> President Volodymyr Zelensky signed a decree on March 7 ordering to transfer some conscripts of compulsory basic military service to the reserve in the spring of 2024.
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> [Image](https://assets.kyivindependent.com/content/images/size/w256h256/format/png/2023/03/K-new.svg)The Kyiv IndependentKateryna Hodunova
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>
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> [Image](https://assets.kyivindependent.com/content/images/2024/02/ebf1abbe32c969c68541f0ce0a0d6a5d_1708949692_extra_large.jpeg)](https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-signed-decree-on-transferring-conscripts-to-reserve-in-spring-2024/)
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Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
In the stickied comment translation of the article ITT it should read:-
"lower the MINIMUM age of compulsory military training from 27 to 25"
rather than "... MAXIMUM..."?
(The linked article says "MINIMUM" right now).
Sorry empleadoEstatalBot,
I haven't found any additional coverage for this story (yet!).
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