What do libertarians think about the fertility crisis and single motherhood?
Posted by Weekly-Syllabub-608@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 48 comments
Across prosperous countries, especially in Asia, fertility has persisted below replacement levels for decades. This could become a severe problem as dependents eventually start to overwhelm productive populations. Culture seems to be the fundamental cause. High prosperity, low education populations (i.e plumbers) have high fertility but high education populations have low fertility. Do libertarians have any comment on this issue?
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
The problem is caused by the gov. Gov subsidizes and encourages the destruction of the family. We have created systemic incentives for divorce, no wonder the divorce rate is nearly 50% now. We have created incentives for single motherhood, no wonder the rate is higher than ever. We punish people for having a normal family, no wonder birth rates are declining rapidly.
To everyone who says it's a non-issue: sub-replacement birth rates are not a non-issue! Humanity will literally go extinct if birth rates do not increase! Even if we do not go extinct, the economy will be greatly impacted for the worse.
Not saying we need to force people to breed or smth. We need to stop gov programs and interventions that punish having a spouse and kids and encourage divorce, single motherhood, and broken homes. Those are not good environments for children to grow up in.
Free-Handle-3689@reddit
If humanity voluntarily goes extinct what exactly is the issue?
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
It's sad that you're not joking.
Free-Handle-3689@reddit
It’s sad you can’t answer simple questions.
Free-Handle-3689@reddit
It’s sad you can’t answer simple questions.
Tinkeybird@reddit
Your argument sounds like a moral argument, which is certainly your right. If we were doing just fine in 1940 regarding population, why is having less children in 2024 a reason to think we’ll become extinct? Populations of humans has risen and fallen many times over the course of human history.
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
In 1940, the population was increasing. In 2024, the population is decreasing. If the population keeps decreasing, it will eventually decrease to zero, at which point we will be extinct.
The population has decreased in the past, yes, due to famine, disease, and war. These are all external factors that kill people.
Never before in history have we had the current mass population decreases due to people's own maladaptive failure to reproduce. Never before has the issue been a lack of births, rather than an excess of deaths. It's a big difference.
Tinkeybird@reddit
So would the population increase indefinitely? I’m confused how to square a woman’s right to use birth control with “we need to keep having babies” if couples have decided they don’t want as many or don’t want any at all. Why is that anyone’s business in a world of 8 Billion people?
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
Lmao. Now I know you're trolling.
Tinkeybird@reddit
I don’t have bodily autonomy to choose not to have children? That sounds rather republican of you. As a 57 year old, post menopausal woman, I chose birth control at 17, making my independent decision NOT to have a baby. Husband and I decided (well actually me as he was ambivalent about children in general) to have one child at 33. After having our one child, I used birth control till I was 52. Yeah that as my right and my choice. As a modern human being, specifically an American, bodily autonomy, which also should encompass my personal euthanasia, is my right. How are you disputing that, call me a troll, as a libertarian?
keypavel@reddit
Again, you were given a toy at 17, invented by a feminist sponsored specialist, advised by a state doctor, which had huge number of sides from the beginning. And it may kill libido to be honest. You have the right but you also have real life and consequences putting you or people near you lower or higher in those status, self comfort, happiness markers.
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
I hate to break it to you, but rights don't come from being a modern American.
Tinkeybird@reddit
The birth control pill is a recent (50+years) invention. If a manufacturer is making it available for sale I should have the right to purchase said invention without harassment from anyone who feels it is morally objectionable. I’m unsure why a libertarian would argue this point. Care to expand on why I don’t have the right to choose this option as an individual living in a country that says it values liberty? I’m not saying I have the right to enforce a company to make it, I’m saying a product on the market as a result of technology and capitalism is at my disposal to choose to use regardless of what my neighbor thinks about population growth.
keypavel@reddit
That's where you need to go a bit deeper on how people decide.
keypavel@reddit
Your right, all this was planned, Jaffe Memo, Frank Notestein, Rockefeller archive on Bucharest conference.
heartsnsoul@reddit
I don't see any crisis here except for the potential for the government to lose money and power if they can't keep new votes coming in. And that's a solution to the current crisis imo.
keypavel@reddit
new votes come through the border, no problem, it's so simple, President Kamacho is the best!
keypavel@reddit
OP do you know anything on Jaffe Memo, Memo 200?
GildSkiss@reddit
Libertarians are opposed to the state taking any role in social engineering or influencing demographics. If people do or don't get married, do or don't have children, do or don't have a lot of them, that's absolutely none of the government's business.
That's not to say that I don't have an opinion on the subject (I do) but I don't want the government to do anything about it, even if it's ostensibly to help the problem in my favor.
keypavel@reddit
Your opinion is your opinion undoubtedly but imho we see Amishes who usually prefer to not have much deal with government too but who will soon outnumber people with your opinion. And again, the OP said the word 'cultural', the only nuance is who behind the mainstream culture and if your culture any different from the mainstream.
dammonl@reddit
Not a fan of using medication to get pregnant. Nature is telling us something.
Single moms from divorce, all good. From being c@m dumpsters, not a fan
Tinkeybird@reddit
So unless you’re practicing the caveman way, you’d like to remove the option from other couples who would like to use modern science, in conjunction with their doctors, to have a child. Why is that any of your business? You aren’t required to be a fan of anything provided you stay out of other people lives.
somerville99@reddit
We need more plumbers, and more plumbers kids than we do high education whiners.
Tinkeybird@reddit
So send your kid to trade school and but out of what other parents do.
YetAnotherCommenter@reddit
This is almost certainly a product of perverse incentives created by badly-designed welfare programs. I agree the government should not be subsidizing single parenthood. The government shouldn't subsidize any particular family structure.
Otherwise, the population issue is kind of a nonissue. Having a kid is NOT EASY and taking care of it after its out of the uterus is a massive responsibility. This is a decision so intimate and so personal and so significant and important that it must be left to the individuals involved.
Yes, bad social programs designed like Ponzi schemes (such as Social Security in the US) will suffer as a result but again, that's a problem with the bad social program, not with individuals "not breeding."
Some people would make bad parents. Why should they be pressured to breed? The literature makes it pretty clear how important good parenting is to the child's outcomes. Do we WANT more unwanted children?
Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit
That being said, if people want to be taken care of in old age, they should have their own children. Not expect the gov to steal from everyone else to give to them. SS is a disaster.
nipdatip@reddit
This is so stupidly selfish I don't know where to start.
Tinkeybird@reddit
Despite the downvotes, as a woman I agree with you. It’s not my responsibility to have multiple kids as a back up plan for my benefit. What if I’m only able to have one child who is profoundly handicapped and can’t even care for themselves? I understand self sufficiency but you’re playing roulette if you consider that your retirement plan.
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
Stealing from others is stupidly selfish.
Tinkeybird@reddit
So when you say “perverse incentives” are you assuming that birth rates 100 years ago by American women were different than they are today and the cause of todays birth rates are higher due to welfare and SNAP? I don’t think a case can be made that when women were having children 100 years ago they were having less because there were no resources to help. Humans have always populated the earth regardless of the circumstances it’s just now if you are poor you get assistance. If the assistance dried up I’d expect as many kids born, just more into grinding poverty.
YetAnotherCommenter@reddit
I'm talking about the rate of single parenthood, not the birth rates.
Tinkeybird@reddit
Can you explain that a bit better? Single mothers are responsible for population decline or are they responsible for welfare? The data does show single mothers use more welfare than a married couple. Anecdotally, my father left when I was 9, 48 years ago, and refused to pay child support. So I’d say that some men bear the responsibility just as some women bear the responsibility of needing welfare for children.
YetAnotherCommenter@reddit
Its the other way around: the way that current US social programs are structured subsidize single motherhood.
I don't disagree with that. I should add I am not against all safety nets in principle, I just believe we need to be careful with how these safety nets are designed so as to avoid negative unintended consequences.
Tinkeybird@reddit
I agree with you about negative consequences.
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
I don't care as long as it is not subsidized by the government. Which it currently is.
This part is really none of any ones business.
Tinkeybird@reddit
Equally sick is the government, in any capacity, making reproductive choices for women concerning birth control or abortion for a reason. It’s not the roll of government to insert their morals period.
Drunk_Tax_Thoughts@reddit
Roll, perhaps. Role? Perhaps not!
Tinkeybird@reddit
Thank you, I fixed the error.
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
Agreed.
YesIAmRightWing@reddit
by default the only cultures that will survive are ones that reproduce and pass said culture to their children.
the government imo has no place in the above.
its a bit similar to the hand of the market.
soonPE@reddit
That government should not intervene.
NeitherManner@reddit
I agree but I kind of feel it already does. I don't think birthrates would be this small without massive government spending/taxes and welfare.
DeathHopper@reddit
I'll one up this with, "the government should stop intervening."
soonPE@reddit
And thats the main cause!!!!
livenn@reddit
The government didn’t impregnate those mothers. This is definitely more of a social issue that should be handled by local communities rather than a centralized entity
Greeklibertarian27@reddit
That is dependant more on the geographic location rather than ideology. In the balkans single motherhood is kinda frowned upon as families are meant to stay together all times, however a single mother in need could find help from A) male relatives B) her local communtity.
As for the fertility crisis it is more of a wealth issue. The more wealthy you are the less kids you have. Although I could suppose that if you are insanely rich then you could have as many children as you want so idk maybe we will enounter a reversed normal distribution curve sometime.
wilhelmfink4@reddit
That’s unfortunate
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