Is there any way to improve on the Mars pistol? I'm just really curious and would love to know if this gun has the possibility to be improved on.
Posted by Colt1873@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 99 comments
B3nny_Th3_L3nny@reddit
yeah the desert eagle is kinda the final form of the Mars,
TomShoe@reddit
I guess it does sort of track that the best way to improve on the mars being to just make it a completely different gun
DiabeticChicken@reddit
I know literally nothing about this cartridge, and little about ballistics, why is it so cool?
TomShoe@reddit
8.5mm is kind of a weird random diameter to start with, it's also a bottle necked cartridge which, while certainly not unheard of, is relatively less common, and it has a very long neck for a bottle neck pistol round, with the casing designed to fit more or less flush with the bullet. On top of that it's got ballistics that are easily competitive with .357 Magnum
Irobert1115HD@reddit
arent bottleneck cartridges a rarity in pistols wich is why they are interesting as pistol rounds?
Irobert1115HD@reddit
hey! dont compare the deagle to the mars! the deagle actually works as intended.
korblborp@reddit
maybe just scaling it up slightly and making it into a longarm
thenoobking10@reddit
I'd be worried about that bolt assembly coming back to my face if it were a converted to a rifle or carbine. Sure, you could just use the operating system and move it forward and it no longer be a mars automatic but just the action of it.
korblborp@reddit
i mean, i was imagining putting it in a proper stock and hence the grip would just become a magazine and the trigger would be moved backward. and then there would probably be build up of the reciever around and behind the bolt like most semiauto longarms.
they did ask about improving it, and that doesn't mean keeping it exactly the same, hence the Borschardt becoming the Luger.
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
The long recoil will not release and load the next round until the trigger is released. This can disrupt the user's sight picture- so there are a few things.
-Find a way to lower the bore axis. -Disconnect trigger and recoil mechanism -Modernize ergonomics -Find a way to add an RDO cut and barrel threads.
-If you can make it work just as well without being long recoil, That could be an ostensible improvement too.
TomShoe@reddit
I think at that point it's not really a Mars
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
Maybe so, but the OP asked for ways to improve upon it, and these are the biggest issues I could find with the platform, and fixing them would be a dramatic improvement.
TomShoe@reddit
Disconnecting the trigger from the recoil assembly is a good shout, I was more just talking about moving away from the long recoil action.
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
Absolutely fair. I love the Mars conceptually, it is such a goofy little gun. It reminds me of a miniaturized artillery piece, but there are absolutely reasons it didn't proliferate commercially.
TomShoe@reddit
I do legitimately dig the cartridges
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
Same. Necked down pistol rounds are criminally underrated
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
From what you guys are saying, are you talking about a Mars with a fixed barrel?
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
Not quite, just with less travel, just enough to unlock the bolt.
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
So delaying it?
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
I mean- making it short recoil probably.
You could have a fixed barrel and make it gas operated.
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
I feel like gas operation might be less reliable if dust and grime got in, but what do you think?
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
Depends on the way the gas is ported and the lugs interface with the breech. There are plenty of reliable gas operated actions that hold up to dust and grime, so I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Really, could that possibly work with the desert eagle too?
Nitro-Cellulose@reddit
The Desert Eagle is gas operated. It's a long stroke gas piston, the port is in front of the chamber, and runs along the barrel to the front of the slide.
Hoi4_ITA@reddit
We need to summon Ian for this one... Surely a threaded barrel and a rail for red dot would not hurt the pistol
KorianHUN@reddit
At that point just get an AR pistol.
Hoi4_ITA@reddit
Thers an 90% possibility that for each WW1/WW2 firearms somebody want to see a modernize version of it AR-15? Laaaaame Imagine a brand new modernize MKB 42 now that's something cool
CanadaIsDecent@reddit
The MKB 42 is awesome but I would want those US department of energy 9mm AR-15s to get made
MountainTitan@reddit
It's already being made
LUnacy45@reddit
I think someone is making a clone, it was at shot show last year if I recall
CanadaIsDecent@reddit
I can’t have it in Canada anyway I just think they look cool
raviolispoon@reddit
PSA is doing it
Hoi4_ITA@reddit
I mean to each their own im a sucker for WW2 weapons so an MKB42 H modernize or a fixed W (closed bolt Walther version of the MKB42) would be hella cool to me And there's a couple others weapons I would like to see a revamp for civilian market or retro engineered for collectionist
KorianHUN@reddit
The Mars was so unironically shit for the same purpose you can't really fix it. Other than just buying a Desert Eagle which is the closest thing we got.
aisa9000@reddit
Shorter barrel + muzzle booster, spitzer + lighter bullet, stock. If needed, a better pistol grip
That should remain what the original pistol is while doing the job. I can also think of it in form of M1 carbine
ServerLost@reddit
Shoulder stock couldn't hurt.
aisa9000@reddit
I mean, you're right. If it was such heavy, bulky, just make it a carbine. It has a powerful round, so be able to really use it would really help.
Sadly, the concept of carbine doesn't really take off until Lange Pistole LP-08. Of course there is the full auto stock C96, but C96 is a clumsy long pistol and not really modern, so P-08 does the job more properly.
MEGALODONGERS@reddit
Really, Hugh Gabbett-Fairfax could have made a damn solid pistol caliber carbine for the cartridges he invented. Only .450 Mars Short (and the downloaded .450 Mars Long tests rounds), which he developed shortly before bankruptcy, was reasonable for a pistol of the time.
reddituser12346@reddit
Is that the shoulder thing that goes up?
Happy_Garand@reddit
No, that's the barrel shroud
Krieg_Soldier@reddit
Nyet! Pistol is fine
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Understood comrade-I mean laddey!
Ok-Reality-9197@reddit
Different ejection pattern and a stock. Problem solved
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Well, I'm not an expert on guns, but would fixing the ejection system help?
Ok-Reality-9197@reddit
I'm sure that it would. One of the chief complaints is that it ejected cartridges straight back and into the shooter's face
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
So would it be best to change the extractor so that instead of ejecting straight up, it ejects rounds to the right?
korblborp@reddit
no, make it eject more up, so it goes over him and hits the officer behind him
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Bruh.
Ok-Reality-9197@reddit
I think we might be onto something here
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Really? Got anything in mind? :)
Forward-Piano8711@reddit
Not really. Large caliber semi autos just don’t really work. There has to be some trade off. Big caliber means big gun, big gun means big recoil, which isn’t practical in a handgun. Only thing I’ve seen do it reasonably well is the FK BRNO. Revolvers are better for big calibers in small packages
dynamoterrordynastes@reddit
Yes
Grumpy-Greybeard@reddit
Frankly it would be hard to make the damned thing any worse.
TomShoe@reddit
They guy who suggested a longer and sharper hammer spur is on the right track I think.
Then maybe just cut some corners in terms of material quality and I think you've maybe got the worst handgun ever designed
HFentonMudd@reddit
Dreyse M1907 has entered the chat
Affectionate-Board84@reddit
Just use chinesium for the recoil screws and shoot it using the sights?
Sno_lol@reddit
All that really needs fixing is the ejection pattern, if the brass didn't fly directly into the shooter's face then it'd be a half-decent gun.
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Really? Do you know how you'd change it? Just wondering.
Sno_lol@reddit
A better ejector really, I'm not sure what you'd do mechanically to change it but a different position and maybe shape would make all the difference.
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Well, the Mars has a four lug rotating bolt, so for what I'm gonna call Mars Mk2, what type of rotating bolt would it have now?
Sno_lol@reddit
I'm no gunsmith and 100% not the best guy to ask when it comes to mechanical design, though with my limited knowledge about firearm internals, brass is not supposed to fly straight back. A proper ejector that catches from the side of the rim would fix this, in fact most firearms use this method.
Honestly just looking into how the Desert Eagle handles ejection might net you some good answers as it uses a rotating bolt system and has a really solid ejection pattern and reliability when shooting .50AE. AR-15s would probably be a good place to look as well, even if they're a bit different.
The Desert Eagle pretty much is a true Mars Automatic Mk2, so taking ideas from that is 100% the best place to start.
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
Thanks.
IceTea0069@reddit
Side ejecting case would be a great improvement
Colt1873@reddit (OP)
I agree, but would it drastically change the mechanism?
moviemoocher@reddit
you could attach a bottle opener?
Ecclectic_Nerd@reddit
I can’t think of any “improvement” that isn’t essentially a complete redesign or reworking so many different pieces that it becomes a completely different gun.
AveragePriusOwner@reddit
It's called the Frommer Stop
Personal_Mini_Equine@reddit
obligatory mention of the desert eagle as the standout example of a high-caliber handgun with a rotating bolt
as for the loading mechanism, the only modern analogue is the bond arms bullpup, formerly the boberg XR9
long-recoil operation is virtually absent in modern small arms, let alone in handgun form, but the technology is obviously available. the only examples i can think of (that are still in production) are the browning auto 5 and an AR10 alternative, the olympus arms vulcan
i guess what I'm saying is all the ingredients are there to be assembled into a new mars pistol, but what could be done to make it better than the old one, IE so niche nobody wants one?
well first is putting it in a caliber people can buy, probably 44 magnum or perhaps 44 AMP, if not just 50 AE. second is probably ergonomics. Just look at the thing: Would it even fit in one of those leather catchall holsters from the wild west? im not a bore axis snob, but it would certainly get roasted to a crisp by anyone who is. single action only and single stack magazines are fine for what would be a target shooting and maybe hunting pistol. in today's market, such a thing has to have optics compatibility, but given the lack of a traditional slide, I'm wondering if it might be better served by an AK-esque side mount on the frame. simple and strong for those who want it on, small and out-of-the-way for those who don't. finally, all reports indicate that recoil and muzzle blast were complaints from everyone who actually fired one. that calls for a compensator or more likely a brake. maybe you could offer threaded barrels for any madlads who think they can engineer a suppressor for a long-recoil magnum handgun.
the end result would still be very niche, but it would have few competitors, just the desert eagle and the automag really. the mars pistol is known well enough that it might see some sales as a made-to-order item because it isn't going to be cheap and it isn't going to be flying off the shelves.
raviolispoon@reddit
The modern Auto 5 doesn't actually use the long recoil system of the original.
Remington_Underwood@reddit
My understanding is that almost every Mars pistol sold had its own unique minor modifications made to it in an attempt to improve some aspect of its operation, so it would appear its designer struggled with the same question
Disastrous_Speech_57@reddit
Longer barrel and handguard, Thumbhole stock, and rechambered for 25-20 Winchester.
Purple_Calico@reddit
Slap a big bitching muzzle break & a red dot on it and call it a day.
original_name1947@reddit
Chamber it in a larger round
DinoMastah@reddit
If it was available in 9mm and .22LR it could be a fun gun to do target shooting with.
However it would defeat the purpose of being the most powerful gun of its time.
Green__lightning@reddit
What about the Boberg?
emurange205@reddit
pistol is fine
billsatwork@reddit
You could shrink the action down for a more reasonable handgun cartridge, but I don't see what a smaller Mars could do that any of the other auto-loaders of the time already did better.
ItsJonWhatsUp@reddit
The way to improve it would be to change literally everything about the gun- cartridge, size, everything. But then it wouldn’t be a Mars, would it be?
AlfaZagato@reddit
Objectively no, the design is a little too bizarre to be efficient today.
Subjectively yes, we already did and called it the Desert Eagle.
TomShoe@reddit
It was a little too bizarre to be efficient in an era when efficient design looked like the Borchardt, by todays standards it would be hopeless
AlfaZagato@reddit
I mean, you should never be able to say you based your pistol design on the feeding practices of a sea urchin.
KiwiNation445@reddit
Well, if you’re a limp wrist we baby, lower the caliber or find a better recoil system. But to keep the aesthetic just rechamber it.
Habubu_Seppl@reddit
Well the best way to improve your Mars pistol is to -before firing- replacing it with literally any other pistol
justaheatattack@reddit
A perfectly acceptable firearm.
If you're a REAL MAN.
Snaz5@reddit
BIGGER
f38stingray@reddit
I just never understood why he made it so small. Never compromise just because a government organization said so!
VictorianDelorean@reddit
Reduce the caliber to something more reasonable and see if that allows you to make it a little lighter built without blowing it up.
TheBodyIsR0und@reddit
Bolt a rail on the side compatible with yugo-style AK side-rail scope mounts so you can get an LPVO on there.
Daewoo K5 style triple-action hammer.
Modular grip panels and backstraps with captive retaining screws.
Magazine safety
Replace ALL springs with hydraulic systems.
Chambered for 5.7
VFG (89 degrees) mainly to store extra batteries for your LPVO
P7 style squeeze cocker
Muzzle weights for competition performance
Glock switch
Wooden holster, doesn't need to function as a stock, just a wooden holster.
jess-plays-games@reddit
I think with modern high tech machining tolerances it might be more reliable
Then we could work on improving every part to increase reliability etc
AllAboutTheMachismo@reddit
Yea, start from scratch and design a 1911
ninjast4r@reddit
To improve upon the Mars you would have to take the current design and scrap the whole thing, then come up with a completely new design that isn't a total nightmare to try to shoot
WanderToNowhere@reddit
Scale up and make it Into Bullpup PDW. The only flaw of Mars pistol is being a pistol with uncontrollable recoil.
AtheistConservative@reddit
First we'll improve the sights with a modern RDS. Now we have to lower that bore axis. We're gonna move the barrel return spring up and wrap it around the barrel, and move the barrel down. We're gonna move the chamber forward of the magazine. We get rid of the lifter and extend the bolt. Fitting a spring for it might be a pain in the butt. Double stack the mag, make the frame out of polymer, and as much of the metal out of scandium and you might end up with something that's 60% as useful as a G20.
ByGollie@reddit
From the Wikipedia Article
GeneralBisV@reddit
Honestly I would love one of these giant stupid things in .50 AE or 500 SW auto
Taolan13@reddit
I mean, as far as the physical pistol, a brace or stock, foregrip, and better sights could make it more usable.
As far as the concept of "big heavy automatic pistol firing big heavy bullet" that's been done, as others have said here, the Desert Eagle.
255001434@reddit
No, this is the best gun.
ananonanemone@reddit
Longer and sharper hammer spur.
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