Were the Police or 999 right to hang up on me or have ago at me?

Posted by Caex13@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 63 comments

I'm a really autistic guy so i don't go out much and I don't do much by myself but today I wanted to go to Aldi to get some cheese burgers. As I walked into Aldi, i realised I forgot my cash so I immediately went to walk out the entrance. I hadn't even walked into the shop or gone down an Isle yet. As I went to leave I asked the security guard if he could move the barrier blocking my exit. He refused, asked me if I had anything in my pockets and then asked to search me. I very politely refused and asked him if I could leave, I said id forgotten my money. He refused, pushed his chest up to mine and blocked me from moving, refused to let me leave without searching. I called 999 and explained the situation. The 999 person told me to let the security search me and they're legally allowed to search me. I said I don't give consent and I've not done anything wrong, I just want to leave the shop. The lady on 999 had ago at me, said I was wasting her time and hung up the phone. I called 999 back and explained again. The second person at 999 said "Instead of letting the security guard search you, you want to me to take two police officers from a real crime and send them over to you in Aldi so you can be searched by a police officer?". I explained I've broken no laws, no one has any grounds to search me right now, I'm not suspicious and I've done nothing wrong. But if I am to be searched, I want it to be done by a legal professional (Police Officer). The Lady at 999 had ago at me again, grumbled and then said she would make a report and send police when she could, be also told me I was wasting police time. I explained I just wanted to leave the shop without being harassed. Whilst waiting for the police, the Aldi manager came over to me and asked what was wrong. I explained all the above and he said, "That's bloody ridiculous". Told the security guard he recognises me, apologised to me profusely and let me go. I then went to the cash point, got my money, went back, bought my burgers and went home fine. Is this really the expectation from 999 and the police now.

Reply to Post

Reply

63 Comments

[-]

7ootles@reddit

They were in the wrong, but you dealt with it badly. They can't detain you (make a citizen's arrest) unless they have actually caught you shoplifting or committing any other crime. They can *request* a search, but they can't enforce it. You should have asked for the manager right from the off and lodged a complaint against the security guard's conduct then and there.

Reply

[-]

ExcitingGuarantee959@reddit

You don’t know what a citizens arrest is

Reply

[-]

7ootles@reddit

So, educate me.

Reply

[-]

Robojobo27@reddit

Whilst it does sound like the security guard was giving it the Charlie big bollocks routine this is hardly a police matter.

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

when I'm being physically stopped from exiting a shop and im scared, i called the police. That's all.

Reply

[-]

Exact-Put-6961@reddit

The problem is that your minor spat with a security guard is nothing when 999 has a list of serious calls backing up, major crimes, threats to life etc 999 operators under massive pressure.

Reply

[-]

Robojobo27@reddit

A security guard can reasonably detain you if they suspect you of committing a crime, going by what you’ve said he was being a little over the top but he was well within his rights to search you. What did you expect the police to do?

Reply

[-]

Spiritual_Ground_778@reddit

No, the security guard was within his right to ask for a search but OP was within his right to refuse. Also, some shops impose a blanket ban on customers leaving without a receipt and request a search systematically. It is questionable whether this is a "reasonable" reason to retain someone. OP was wrong to call 999 as it wasn't an emergency, he should have asked to talk to a manager.

Reply

[-]

randomdiyeruk@reddit

> It is questionable whether this is a "reasonable" reason to detain someone. It's not, because not consenting to a search isn't going to come *close* to providing reasonable suspicion that you'ce comitted an offence. Imagine if that were the case - there'd be no such thing as stop and search powers. All an officer would have to do is say "Can I search you?" and you saying "No" would be sufficient for them to arrest you, and then they can search you anyway

Reply

[-]

randomdiyeruk@reddit

> he was well within his rights to search you What on Earth makes you think this? There is absolutely no inherent right, laid out anywhere, for a member of the public to search another member of the public. He can ask. OP can refuse. At that point the security guards only choice is to make a citizens arrest (And his reasonable belief best be defendable, else that's a serious offence). He can then wait for a Police officer to attend and, if deemed right, to commit a search.

Reply

[-]

pullingteeths@reddit

They can't. They can ask you to stay and call the police. They have no right to physically prevent you from leaving.

Reply

[-]

_Red_Knight_@reddit

Anyone can do a citizen's arrest

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

He never searched me and the law states, I'm legally allowed to refuse the search. Which I did. But he did 'detain' me without a reason. I expected the Police to either attend because they think im a criminal or to tell the security officer to let me go. I've either committed a crime or not.

Reply

[-]

Robojobo27@reddit

ESH.

Reply

[-]

FestiveSalad@reddit

Except the 999 call operators who were absolutely right that OP was misusing the emergency number.

Reply

[-]

Anxious-Molasses9456@reddit

> I expected the Police to either Unless you're being stabbed, the police won't attend these days Better get used to that

Reply

[-]

No_Initiative5355@reddit

Incorrect. They’re not police officers, they can’t detain you on “suspicion “.

Reply

[-]

shep15jon@reddit

Sorry, but you didn’t really call the Police. You called Emergency Services. Usually reserved for emergencies, not civil matters like this. Plus, even though it sounds like he was being a dick about it, the security guy does have a right to request a search. He’s just doing his job. He may not have seen how briefly you were in the store for, or why you were leaving so quickly (which does look suspicious). You could have easily de-escalated the whole situation by just allowing him to search your pockets, satisfying him that you’ve nothing to hide, and nipping back home to get the cash you forgot. No big deal.

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

> the security guy does have a right to request a search. He’s just doing his job. He may not have seen how briefly you were in the store for, or why you were leaving so quickly (which does look suspicious). Just as it's my legal right to refuse the search. >You could have easily de-escalated the whole situation by just allowing him to search your pockets, satisfying him that you’ve nothing to hide, and nipping back home to get the cash you forgot. No big deal. Because i'm really autistic i hate people touching me, i had done nothing wrong. So I didn't want to be searched, sorry if that comes across as being 'difficult'.

Reply

[-]

Spiritual_Ground_778@reddit

You are right, but the point is that you should call 101 and not 999, as it wasn't an emergency. And it would have been more efficient to try and resolve this with the store manager first before escalating to the police.

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

I panicked I just wanted to leave the shop, the security guard had me hold and i couldn't move. I couldn't see anyone or the manager. Calling 999 is all i could think of whilst i was scared

Reply

[-]

Drath101@reddit

It doesn't sound like he had you held to the point you couldn't move given you called 999 3 times

Reply

[-]

shep15jon@reddit

Yeah, fair enough. BUT, just because you’re autistic and hate people touching you, (sorry to say this) it doesn’t mean you have a lifelong right to not be searched. You must understand why, on very rare occasions, it might be necessary for people to search you (such as this situation, airport security, entrance to some clubs even). My advice for the future is that you calmly explain your special needs in these situations, and not just flat refuse to be searched.

Reply

[-]

FestiveSalad@reddit

This is absolutely not an emergency. 999 is for emergencies. If you'd asked for the manager or called the non-emergency police number, that may have been a reasonable response. Please don't use 999 like that.

Reply

[-]

JustJamesInnit@reddit

Technically you didn’t do anything wrong, but my lord there was so many better ways of dealing with this issue so I can understand why the police were pissed off. Although, my main question is if you were able to go to the cash machine to get cash out, why didn’t you just pay on card?

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

>Although, my main question is if you were able to go to the cash machine to get cash out, why didn’t you just pay on card? Because I'm disabled it's quite heavy to carry stuff to the cashpoint and back. I needed cash anyway so I had to go to the cashpoint but id rather have done my shopping first. Without letting the man search me or touch me, which is the main thing. How else could I have done better please, id like to know for the future?

Reply

[-]

DameKumquat@reddit

If you'd said before trying to leave, excuse me, I've forgotten my money, could you please let me out so I can get it, that would likely have been the best option. If you had loose clothing you could have pushed them out yourself to show there was nothing in them. Or you could have said you are disabled and can't stand being touched, is there a reason they thing you have stolen something? Asking for a manager if they don't back down would then be reasonable. If you have a card saying you're autistic and what official types might need to know, that can be helpful. Sounds like the guy was a bit of a knob but then he's been dealing with shoplifters all day so not too surprising. Don't take it personally!

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

>If you'd said before trying to leave, excuse me, I've forgotten my money, could you please let me out so I can get it, that would likely have been the best option. I literally said that and did exactly that, and said that in my OP. God im so bad at explaining things.

Reply

[-]

DameKumquat@reddit

My apologies, you did say that, though if you'd immediately mentioned forgetting money it might have helped. Or not. In future, going out past the open checkouts is probably easier, especially if there's a self checkout - I think the barriers can't actually be opened by the security guy in Lidl. I don't recommend doing it frequently, but giving in and having a huge panic attack and crying can get such people to want you out of the store asap... Sympathy - I've always managed to just walk past such people myself. There are advantages to being middle-aged, people stop assuming you're a criminal.

Reply

[-]

JustJamesInnit@reddit

Ah okay that’s fair enough! I’d have personally asked to speak to a manager first, even if he didn’t recognise you, there’s a solid chance he’d be less of an arzehole. You could have told him to check CCTV to collaborate your story, called 101 or turned out your own pockets first to see if that would have been enough for him. No guarantee they’d work or course, but they seem a sensible middle ground before going straight to calling the police. Understandably it’s not always easy to rationalise options when you’re stressed though!

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

Thank you I appreciate the advise and will keep it in mind. I just believe in innocent until proven guilty.

Reply

[-]

UnacceptableUse@reddit

It's good to believe in that, but unfortunately you're going to come across people who for various reasons don't. You can fight them but often times you are better off trying to reach a compromise

Reply

[-]

-cluaintarbh-@reddit

Why would you ring 999 for this

Reply

[-]

tomembling@reddit

I mean theres no reason to call 999, just refuse to be searched, they'll soon give up. Or they will end up phoning police themselves and they will be told they are wasting police time too. Works both ways I guess.

Reply

[-]

bumbleb33-@reddit

Next time ring 101. They are a non emergency line but can also send police if needed. I'd use 999 if there was a fire/accident needing an ambulance/serious crime in progress/danger to myself or others. I'd use 101 for reporting things that aren't in need of an immediate response or no one is about to be harmed or die. This was OTT and he was a nob but it's not 999 worthy. Hope that helps some

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

Yes it does, i forget 101 exists. I'll keep that in mind next time. Thank you!

Reply

[-]

Pretty_Option8987@reddit

Is there a difference between 'autistic' and 'really autistic'?

Reply

[-]

Loose_Acanthaceae201@reddit

No, but there is a difference between low masking and high masking. Someone who is high masking "doesn't look autistic" apparently.

Reply

[-]

Pretty_Option8987@reddit

So I 'really autistic' a term used for low masking? Learned something new today!

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

Maybe. The reason why I say I'm "really" autistic is because some people it's not that obvious or it doesn't affect them hugely. I say "really" because if you were to sit with me in a room for 5 minutes for a lovely chat, you'd probably leave thinking "really? understatement, he's just retarded". Like I really struggle with things.

Reply

[-]

randomdiyeruk@reddit

OP, you're getting some heat. Here's my take 1. You're absolutely right to hold fast and stand up for yourself. The security guard has NO right to search you, nor does he have a right to detain you unless he can meet the (fairly high) threshold for a citizens arrest. 2. 999 was probably a bad call. It is for emergencies, life and death, not a dispute in a shop. 3. The advice from the operator was, however, *disgraceful*. They should have downgraded you, transferred or got you to call the non Emergency line and gone from there. You should make a complaint to all who you have dealt with about this because it's incredibly poor. I never let a guard search me, and nor will I ever. They have no right to do so, and I don't appreciate of being accused of theft. If they seriously think I did something they can arrest me, and they'll have to use reasonable force to do so, then they can demonstrate their reasonable belief in court when it transpires I've done nothing. Walking in and out of a shop doesn't come *close* to the threshold of reasonable belief for a citizens arrest, and most security guards are trained that they must watch you take something specifically and follow you all the way out.

Reply

[-]

Peejayess3309@reddit

Instead of calling the police you would have been better escalating to the security guard’s boss, the manager. This doubly so as it turned out the manager knew you, but even if he didn’t. You were within your rights to refuse a search, but choosing the right channel of escalation would have been best.

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

Thank you for the advice, i think you are right. I was just scared and panicked, I couldn't see any Aldi workers or a manager to ask at the time but considering what you've said I do agree with you.

Reply

[-]

Pleonastic_Scolex_69@reddit

You mean you called the police because a guard did their job, I.E. searched you with probable cause, and the police said that the guard did nothing wrong, but you disagreed so you called the police again?

Reply

[-]

randomdiyeruk@reddit

"Searched you with probably cause" What americanised, immaterial, nonsense is this. The guard has no "probably cause" (Which isn't a legal term in the UK) and no right whatsoever.

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

Is walking into a shop 'probable cause'?

Reply

[-]

LtPicker@reddit

Trying to get out of the entrance instead of the exit probably looks suspicious to a guard.

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

I didn't leave through the entrance. I walked up to the security guard and politely asked him to let me leave through the exit, which was blocked.

Reply

[-]

waamoandy@reddit

Forgive my confusion but if the exit was blocked how were other shoppers leaving?

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

Some shops only allow you to leave after you've walked through the tills and the entrance is one way. So I tried to walk out the exit, but because I hadn't gone through a till. I needed to the security guard to let me past. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fbusiness-60038681&psig=AOvVaw2IWl0d2zhVymFlcqQPzYcg&ust=1711561550990000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCLCOiei9koUDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

Reply

[-]

waamoandy@reddit

Now I see why the security guard was suspicious. If you walked through a till you wouldn't have been charged anything as you had no goods. In fact on the face of it there was no reason why you couldn't just walk out. Instead you chose the only means of leaving a shoplifter could use. I can see why he was suspicious

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

>If you walked through a till you wouldn't have been charged anything as you had no goods. I did walk through the till, i explained this. It was blocked by a barrier and I had to ask the security guard to let me leave. I did exactly as you described.

Reply

[-]

waamoandy@reddit

You said earlier and I quote "but because I hadn't gone through a till"... your story is a little confusing to say the least. If you presented inconsistently to the security guard (as well you might as it's a stressful situation) his suspicions are going to be even higher. I hate to say but from your varying accounts I'm not convinced he did anything grossly wrong

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

>You said earlier and I quote "but because I hadn't gone through a till"... your story is a little confusing to say the least. Yes I hadn't paid for anything so I didn't go "through a till" sorry for the confusion. >If you presented inconsistently to the security guard (as well you might as it's a stressful situation) his suspicions are going to be even higher. I hate to say but from your varying accounts I'm not convinced he did anything grossly wrong My account hasn't varied, I think it's just hard to explain to you online what happened. It was as simple as I walked through the front entrance door, it closed behind me. One way system so it locked. I couldn't exit. I walked to the real exit, walked down through a till, which had a barrier at the end of it. I then politely asked the security guard if he could open it, so I could leave the shop. All the other tills were very busy and had huge queues. I literally just walked into the shop, and went to walk out. Nothing more, nothing suspicious.

Reply

[-]

pullingteeths@reddit

It's probably an exit with a barrier that the security guard opens for each customer, to prevent thefts.

Reply

[-]

_90s_Nation_@reddit

Everyone was in the right and wrong here. Like... Security was right. You were right. Police were right. Manager was right 😂

Reply

[-]

FestiveSalad@reddit

OP was right until they misused 999 twice. It's for emergencies.

Reply

[-]

HixaLupa@reddit

Perhaps you could've asked for the manager before choosing the police, as that seems to have been an over-escalation based on the reaction of the 999 Operator. Hopefully this doesn't happen again to try that out though.

Reply

[-]

SwimmingFinish206@reddit

I’m autistic and I hate to say it but you were probably acting a bit shifty. I have been searched on occasion because I don’t act like NTs and therefore can look suspicious. People walk out of shops empty handed all the time so that wasn’t reason enough for him to be suspicious. I get that you didn’t want to be touched but honestly it would have been over a lot quicker if you had let him search you 999 is for *emergencies* this was not an emergency not by any stretch of the imagination

Reply

[-]

Anxious-Molasses9456@reddit

999 is for **immediate danger** Put it another way, what if there was someone who was at risk of dying or being greviously injured, but they got delayed because you were phoning up because you didn't want someone to touch you

Reply

[-]

LtPicker@reddit

Did you call the police back and tell them not to attend? Or did you just go home and let potentially let them turn up for no reason?

Reply

[-]

Caex13@reddit (OP)

I called the police before i left Aldi to let them know the situation was resolved.

Reply

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

**Please help keep AskUK welcoming!** - Top-level comments to the OP must contain **genuine efforts to answer the question**. No jokes, judgements, etc. - **Don't be a dick** to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on. - This is a strictly **no-politics** subreddit! Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Reply