Did Ford's choice to stop selling cars in North America pay off?

Posted by pkeith1986@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 496 comments

A few years ago, Ford announced that, except for the Mustang, they would not be selling cars in the North American market anymore. Most people I talk to think it was a bad decision, but did it/is it paying off? I'm not a market expert, but I know not everyone wants a crossover/SUV. Was this a risky move that paid off, or is Ford hurting badly due to customers turning to other brands for the cars/hatchbacks that Ford no longer offers?

Reply to Post

Reply

496 Comments

[-]

Bigly-Motor354@reddit

I thought [Doug had a really good take](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbJJQOo2AJw). I can't even count how many broncos, bronco sports, and mavericks I've seen where I live.

Reply

[-]

JapTastic2@reddit

That's true, but I see more Fusions, Focuses, and Fiestas still.

Reply

[-]

teeksquad@reddit

I’m just not buying that with the focus. I owned one up until November and always like looking out for others. There are very few non performance versions left of the latest generations. The bubbly ones I see frequently. Shame the auto trans was so bad. Only issue my car had over 6 years was the a/c compressor going out and that was a specific issue for the 2017s as they changed refrigerants but didn’t update the compressor

Reply

[-]

upsettispaghetti7@reddit

We had a 2008 Ford focus manual that was a fantastic car. Only issue we had in 11 years was the resistor for the radiator fan failing due to corrosion. My brother totaled it on an animal with 150k on it

Reply

[-]

iamkeerock@reddit

I’m still driving an 05 Focus with 351,000 miles.

Reply

[-]

MemilyBemily5@reddit

Omg what mile are you on now?

Reply

[-]

iamkeerock@reddit

354,000+ today.

Reply

[-]

MemilyBemily5@reddit

#goals…. I have a 2010 and am at 173k I hope mine makes it as long as yours!

Reply

[-]

iamkeerock@reddit

Regular maintenance goes a long ways! Fix small stuff before it becomes a bigger problem, and you may be good to go!

Reply

[-]

MemilyBemily5@reddit

Yeah. She’s real ugly but I’ve also hit 7 deer and never took it to a shop. It still runs lol I hope she never dies… I’ve never driven another vehicle I like lolll

Reply

[-]

iamkeerock@reddit

I swear, some cars are too stubborn to die.

Reply

[-]

Lowclearancebridge@reddit

Man ford outta buy you a nice steak dinner or something.

Reply

[-]

iamkeerock@reddit

Trusty Rusty! Car must be demon possessed as it refuses to die.

Reply

[-]

yellolab@reddit

I have a 2012 MT Focus, it gave me no trouble for the first 100k miles except for the door lock recall, and it's not burning any oil and it's never showed any fault codes. It's long since paid off, it's fun to drive, and the only new car alternatives with manuals are Mazda3/Civic for 30 grand or more. Ford decided to get rid of customers like me, so I don't feel any brand loyalty at all.

Reply

[-]

jasonfromearth1981@reddit

To be fair, no auto maker wants you (or me) as a customer. What I mean by that is they want someone to lease their vehicles, trade them back in and lease another. They get the lease money and they still get to sell the low mileage cars as CPO.

Reply

[-]

trancertong@reddit

I have a 2014 ST and plan to keep it until the guzzolene wars

Reply

[-]

DrKoooolAid@reddit

Probably just depends on where you are. I'm in a Midwest town of about 60k and I probably see 5+ non performance latest gen Foci a day. Sometimes more than 10 if I drift around town a bit.

Reply

[-]

f5alcon@reddit

I made it to 115k before my TCM took a dump. Was fixed for free though and I'm going to see how far it was can make it last

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

But that doesn't really mean anything. People aren't just going to get rid of their car because the company doesn't make it anymore, and they're still available on the used market.

Reply

[-]

SkitTrick@reddit

They might not want a truck and now ford lost a customer. Just an example

Reply

[-]

SecretlyMartyMcFly@reddit

Almost nobody buys sedans anymore, and the type that do wouldn’t usually buy a Ford sedan anyway. Plus most Ford sedan buyers will probably just switch to a Ford small suv. They most likely lost almost no buyers from the decision

Reply

[-]

Mundane-Gas336@reddit

Well they lost me. I wrote and told them that if they start making the Fusions, again, I will be first in line (not that anyone one above a CSR will read it). I love my Fusion but I can't put the $ into rocker panel labor that I would need to as she is 11 years old. Best Car ever.

Reply

[-]

SecretlyMartyMcFly@reddit

Like I said “usually”. The small number of you and people like you out there is not enough to justify making the fusion. Also side note Fusions are not that great. We’ve had probably 8 or so in the family to 150k miles each (work cars) and been consistently unimpressed compared to the Malibus and Passats we’ve also had. I’ve definitely never had a car seal that bad before. Lived on a gravel road and that interior was always COATED in dust, no other car has had that problem.

Reply

[-]

Mundane-Gas336@reddit

Then you were unfortunate. My AWD Titanium was great and with snow tires It never slid and it would go everywhere. It started the first time every single time in all the years we have had it. We never had to replace exhaust system. We did replace shocks and brake pads and other than that the only issue I ever had was the 19" tires with potholes in MA. Had anyone advised me to undercoat, she would probably last a few more years. It sure got out of its own way. Our new Rav4 Hybrid Sport is nowhere near as fun to drive but a better vehicle for my husband to get in and out of. Other than the safety bells and whistles the only things this new vehicle has, that the Fusion didn't, is the heated steering wheel and the roof is panoramic instead of a straight moon roof. On this road everything gets dusty. It even seeps into my house :(.

Reply

[-]

SecretlyMartyMcFly@reddit

8 out of 8 Fusions let massive amounts of dust in the car when none of our other 9 cars do in the time period do. That’s not unfortunate that’s bad design… One fusion died (new engine) within 10k miles the rest needed no repairs to 150k miles. None of other cars at the same time needed repairs either, modern cars are just reliable ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ decent reliability isn’t a differentiator in the modern market it’s just table stakes. The manufacturing error on the dead one is also to be expected occasionally. I would never classify a fusion as “fun” to drive. Maybe compared to an SUV but by that logic all Sedans are fun to drive.

Reply

[-]

teenytinysarcasm@reddit

Really? Majority of drivers don't drive sedans? Sounds like cap.

Reply

[-]

SecretlyMartyMcFly@reddit

I hope that’s sarcasm like your name implies, because it’s not even close between cars and SUV’s lol https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/business/suv-sales-best-sellers.html https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-demand-by-vehicle-type/

Reply

[-]

SkitTrick@reddit

The car companies are the ones pushing trucks like crazy and forcing the demand with decisions like the one ford made. Not the other way around

Reply

[-]

SecretlyMartyMcFly@reddit

That’s not even close to the way it works… they’re not making SUV’s because people want sedans lol

Reply

[-]

bzb321@reddit

Before I left Ford a couple years ago, the profit margin of like 7-8 Focus vehicles is equivalent to one Bronco. It’s probably higher now. Even if they don’t get 80% of their buyers back, in mathematical terms it’s a better decision.

Reply

[-]

R_V_Z@reddit

Well, technically the profit margin is infinitely higher now...

Reply

[-]

Siglet84@reddit

A customer lost is profit lost, period. It’s someone that’s going to wander over to Toyota or Honda and never return, may end up buying a Honda or Toyota suv down the road.

Reply

[-]

Cheezeball25@reddit

Eh Ford buyers tend to be more brand loyal than you might think. I still know plenty of old farts who refuse to buy "foreign brands" to support US brands. And as they said, who cares if you lost some customers if you make it up with higher profit margins? Although in reality, they aren't losing people by not making sedans, everyone has seen a massive drop in sedan purchases throughout the last 30 years. They've proven time and time again that these days most new car buyers don't want them.

Reply

[-]

Emosaa@reddit

I bought a civic because the only compelling vehicle Ford had to offer for me was a mustang, and I didn't want to buy a first model year of the new gen. I get that Ford doesn't care about sedan buyers anymore. It still sucks and I wish auto makers or regulators would step in and stop the size creep of vehicles. When I drive my dad's truck that mother fucker barely fits in most parking spaces and it's what drove me to prefer sedans (that, and the gas mileage).

Reply

[-]

Cheezeball25@reddit

Well sadly the Feds and the EPA managed to make enough loopholes that meant small vehicles have to comply with stricter regulations than the large ones. Add on top of the profit margins on large trucks is massive these days, Ford is raking in the cash because of those trucks. It really does suck, but until the regulations force them to change, or another oil crisis happens, I don't see much changing in the near future

Reply

[-]

BlazinAzn38@reddit

Not many people in the US are buying cars, Ford has plenty of crossovers to choose from

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

But they already showed they don't care about those people when making that announcement. I don't think it was a big loss for them.

Reply

[-]

Bigly-Motor354@reddit

Yep, there are tons of older cars still on the road that people enjoy. That doesn't mean the new models aren't successful.

Reply

[-]

Land_of_Kirk_@reddit

I drive a 190e. That certainly doesn’t mean Mercedes isn’t selling a billion crossovers every year 😂 People buying used sedans are a different market than new car/suv/truck buyers

Reply

[-]

BlazinAzn38@reddit

Average age of a car in the US is like 11 years or something

Reply

[-]

idontremembermyoldus@reddit

This. They made the Fusion for a decade and a half, the Focus for nearly two decades, and the last iteration of the Fiesta for 7 years. The Bronco Sport has been out for 3 years and the Maverick only two. Not really a surprise you see more of the sedans that had been produced much longer than the replacement CUV/trucklet.

Reply

[-]

blipsman@reddit

And they make more profit on one Bronco than they did on a half dozen of those sedans

Reply

[-]

JapTastic2@reddit

Yes, that was my exact point. That's the entire reason it exists instead of a sedan. It had nothing to do with popularity or sales numbers. Crossovers have a higher profit margin. That's why they took the place of sedans.

Reply

[-]

kimbabs@reddit

More often than not I feel buying/owning those vehicles are forced choice than a desire to own them. They were heavily discounted, including in fleet sales and offers to military personnel. No one wants them, so they’re cheap, they’re generally unreliable on top of undesirable, so that makes them even cheaper on the used market. It’s just cheap and that is not profitable to an automaker.

Reply

[-]

spongebob_meth@reddit

This. I bought a new fiesta in 2014 because it was $13k OTD. I didn't do it because I wanted a fiesta. Thing was honestly a piece of junk (mechanically, interior was nice for the price) and started having major issues as soon as the 60k warranty was up.

Reply

[-]

spongebob_meth@reddit

That's surprising. I see probably 1/10 of the fiestas and focuses on the road compared to 5ish years ago. They are horribly unreliable and were a disaster for Ford.

Reply

[-]

stakoverflo@reddit

The only Fiestas I see are the 2 ST's at my local climbing gym.

Reply

[-]

STMIHA@reddit

Yeah and those were are not bad looking cars. Just were given some meh power trains. I still think the outgoing fusion/ mondeo is/ was a great looking car.

Reply

[-]

TheTightEnd@reddit

The more important question is the profit margin Ford had on those vehicles versus their new model mix. Small and compact cars like the Fiesta and Focus have long been at best break-even models. I do question the discontinuation of the Fusion, as that had better margins. However, again, is the plant space better used to make products with higher margins?

Reply

[-]

ChicSheikh@reddit

> Small and compact cars like the Fiesta and Focus have long been at best break-even models True, but CAFE regulations compelled them to sell the Fiesta and Focus so that their fleet average MPG was good enough to keep from paying fines. Tiny engines with turbos (and now EVs) increased MPG enough to make the cheap efficient cars unnecessary.

Reply

[-]

TheTightEnd@reddit

Exactly. The compact crossovers get the EPA mileage the compact sedans saw 15 or 20 years ago.

Reply

[-]

guisar@reddit

Not really- compare a 2024 Rav4 to a 2002 Corolla- 30% decrease in mileage. Cars have gotta WAY bigger and more featureful- they have not gotten better mileage except where they are mandated to and don't have loopholes (like the pickup/SUV ones).

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> Not really- compare a 2024 Rav4 to a 2002 Corolla- 30% decrease in mileage. I'm seeing EPA MPG of an '02 Corolla at 26/36 (4-speed auto, the most popular choice). EPA MPG of a FWD RAV4 is 27/35, or 27/33 if you get AWD.

Reply

[-]

Due_Signature_5497@reddit

Have to agree with this. I drive a RAV4 company vehicle and my combined mileage is 34.7. Drove a Corolla out of necessity for a couple months and combined was the same or slightly worse. This is not a small sample size either. Company fleet of 10k vehicles shows pretty much identical results.

Reply

[-]

EngineersAnon@reddit

We need to amend the law. If it's not a truck as defined by the chicken tax, it shouldn't be a truck for CAFE accounting.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

> However, again, is the plant space better used to make products with higher margins? The Hermosillo plant that used to build the Fusion now builds the Bronco Sport and Maverick. I think the answer is pretty evidently a yes.

Reply

[-]

sonrisa_medusa@reddit

Foci. :P

Reply

[-]

Anon31780@reddit

Focussy.

Reply

[-]

TheStuffle@reddit

I can’t remember the last time I saw a Focus or Fiesta. Fusions are still everywhere though.

Reply

[-]

MrStrawberryrub@reddit

I see them every day. Sticks replaced the last rusted out civic hatches, and the autos are driven by old ladies whose husbands bought them before they died.

Reply

[-]

2brun4u@reddit

They're still kicking around in the Toronto area. Especially closer to the actual city. So many people close to the core of the city held off of upgrading their small cars when interest rates skyrocketed, but I think they will hold onto them longer and fix em as most of them won't be able to park anything bigger than a compact. Not sure what will happen when rust does em in.

Reply

[-]

TheLewJD@reddit

Come to the UK they're some of the most popular cars. I have a MK7 Fiesta ST myself lol

Reply

[-]

TheStuffle@reddit

In Texas. The FiST and FoST are unicorns now, I very rarely see them anymore and when I do they're completely trashed. Meanwhile, I can't drive anywhere without seeing a dozen F-150s, Mavericks, and Bronco Sports.

Reply

[-]

tubbyx7@reddit

Was considering a focus st in 22. Called Ford aus and they said we've been told they're on in August but I doubt it and we have None to test drive or even sit in. They stopped orders before they came into stock. The 8.5 was only just out so a really odd decision to cancel it right as Hyundai stopped taking orders as they couldn't keep up with demand for their hot hatches.

Reply

[-]

guy_incognito784@reddit

Ironically I very rarely see any of those where I am. Especially Fusions.

Reply

[-]

idontremembermyoldus@reddit

Fusions are still prevalent here in NC, even the first-gen. The Focus is starting to get scarce. Fiestas have all but disappeared, save for the occasional ST. Bronco Sports are literally everywhere. Can't go more than an intersection or two without seeing one. Mavericks are less common but still well-represented.

Reply

[-]

Superlolz@reddit

I see plenty of Fusions and rarely any Mavs or Broncos. Just this Sunday I almost got into the wrong car because an identical Fusion parked behind me, almost if on purpose lol

Reply

[-]

shadowkiller@reddit

Manufacturers build for the new car market, not the used market.

Reply

[-]

Various-Ducks@reddit

What about continuation cars?

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

What *about* continuation cars? They're so low-production that they're really not relevant.

Reply

[-]

Various-Ducks@reddit

Sure but they exist.

Reply

[-]

Foolgazi@reddit

I’m generally a fan of Doug but one thing I don’t look to him to is industry analysis.

Reply

[-]

nudewithasuitcase@reddit

He's just a born-rich turd.

Reply

[-]

chiniwini@reddit

Or any technical knowledge whatsoever. Remember that time when Doug didn't know what an equalizer was?

Reply

[-]

e30eric@reddit

He loses his mind making fun of something that he doesn't understand, when it's literally screen printed on the button or on page 32 of the manual.

Reply

[-]

Bigly-Motor354@reddit

Fair, I just agreed with him on this take!

Reply

[-]

Thunder_Wasp@reddit

100% of rich high school kids in my town are driving Broncos now.

Reply

[-]

Mimical@reddit

FWIW I grew up wishing I had bought a little 2 door bronco when I had the chance. For me there is that drive to have a smaller manual vehicle. But when I look at the price of even a mid spec bronco or wrangler they are both well into 45-50k CAD and that's just... So much money for what should be a small shitty mechanical box on wheels.

Reply

[-]

trancertong@reddit

>small shitty mechanical box It *is* a small shitty mechanical box, just an *expensive* small shitty mechanical box. Seriously I love the old broncos and was excited for the new ones until I got a close look at one and sheesh, they are built to a price.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

>Same as international scouts. (Although the only one I rode in was a fuel sucking tin shitbox. That's how they all were. Even the "small" Scouts with an I4 got awful MPG and rode like a lumber wagon.

Reply

[-]

flyinchipmunk5@reddit

Dougs gotta be the best Car youtuber on the platform. I take anything he says like scripture.

Reply

[-]

Due_Average_3874@reddit

What are you talking about about, there are Ford dealers selling cars everywhere.

Reply

[-]

The_Exia@reddit

I don't see how they would be hurting. Even if a customer who wanted a Fusion went to a different brand Ford made the decision not to sell that person one because the cost wasn't worth it. Its like if you were selling a car for 5k but it cost you $4999 to make it. Its not worth it for you to continue making the product if the profit is incredibly small. Your customers go somewhere else but you don't care because you weren't making any money off them anyway. This is where Ford is. They don't care if they lost a few customers if those customers weren't making them money.

Reply

[-]

IamaFunGuy@reddit

They should care. I'm a Ford guy and we own several (Mustang, F150, Fusion). Right now I'm shopping other brands, and I'm having good experiences with the other dealers and seeing some vehicles I like. They are losing my brand loyalty.

Reply

[-]

DishRelative5853@reddit

And the $300 profit they got when you bought your Fusion.

Reply

[-]

Larcya@reddit

And also the $5,000 profit when fun guy goes to replace his F-150 and buys another truck Instead. It adds up over time.

Reply

[-]

JakesterAlmighty99@reddit

Yeah but Ford didn't stop making the F-150, they stopped making the Fusion. Your response doesn't make any sense.

Reply

[-]

Grayly@reddit

I think you missed the point. Brand loyalty is a thing. Guy who likes Fords sedans gets a Ford truck. Ford stops making sedans, because they don’t care about his business. Guy goes and buys a Toyota and then when he needs a truck he gets a Tundra instead of an F-150. Turns out when you treat your loyal customers like they don’t matter, they think the same of you. I’ll probably never get a Ford again. Because they’ve made it abundantly clear how they feel about me.

Reply

[-]

bearhos@reddit

Brand loyalty is super dumb. Company makes a great product, buy it. If they dont, dont buy it. They're not your friends. None of them feel anything about you at all, they just want your money. If you buy a tundra because it's familiar to your camry without testing the rest of the pickup brands in your price range, idk what to tell you. Thats just willful ignorance

Reply

[-]

Grayly@reddit

They did make a great product. I loved the fast Ford hatches. Had a Fiesta ST, Focus ST, and now a Focus RS. They sold very well and were highly reviewed. I had a good relationship with the dealer having gotten three cars for them, and when my wife and I need a family car once we start a family I’d probably just go to Ford for the discounts/service you can get from having a good relationship with the dealer and a repeat performance model customer. Bland boring CUVs and SUVs are just that. Might as well get one from the same manufacturer. Now? Fuck that.

Reply

[-]

NuthinTooFancy@reddit

Okay but Ford lost money on every non-performance focus or fiesta they sold. They didn't stop making small cars and sedans to spite the people who bought them; they stopped making them because they are extremely low/negative margin vehicles. Its a bummer, but the industry caters to people who will buy cars that will make them money. Ford is one of the most conservative brands out there, they didn't just do this on a whim.

Reply

[-]

CanEnvironmental4252@reddit

>Okay but Ford lost money on every non-performance focus or fiesta they sold. Do you have a source for that? I couldn’t find anything. But also, are we gonna pretend they’re not hemorrhaging money on EVs, then, if higher profit margins are their only goal?

Reply

[-]

LakersRebuild@reddit

Brand loyalty is a thing. But what Ford is doing is they are creating a new group of loyalists. Ones that will make them profit in exchange for ones that will not. You see they know the next generation of consumers are no longer the sedan drivers. They want SUVs and Trucks. So while they may lose one loyal guy who bought a sedan + truck ($300 + $5000), they are now gaining another loyalist that’s buying the Mustang EV + Lightning ($3000 + $5000). And here’s the thing, the loyalist whom they lost to GM/Toyota/etc may soon see sedan choices decrease at the other brands as well. All the while Ford’s truck product will become more appealing as they now have higher profit and better focus. So this brand loyalist that went to Toyota, who is still spending billions on building a Camry that makes them $300/per and less on an EV Tundra and EV RAV4 will start to realize both his Camry and Tundra is not that good anymore.

Reply

[-]

DishRelative5853@reddit

Ford didn't stop making sedans because they don't care about loyal Ford guys. They stopped making sedans because they weren't generating enough profit.

Reply

[-]

Grayly@reddit

VW saw their way to pretty much getting out of the NA sedan market while keeping the GLI, GTI and Golf R as low volume enthusiast vehicles. Ford didn’t want to or didn’t care to. They can say it’s just business and not a slight against their loyal customers. But actions speak louder than words, and by their actions they don’t care about anyone other than Mustang fans and off-roaders. They are either ok with telling customers like me to fuck off, or are so deluded that they think we will just get an Edge ST and be happy with it. Ford had a tremendous rallye and street legacy they just gave up on and walked away from. Enthusiasts may not make them a lot of money, but they certainly are the best free marketing there is. My mom bought a Ford Fiesta manual on my recommendation because I had the ST. When she needed something bigger she got an Edge after that on her own. That’s two sales that only happen because of their low volume enthusiast product that’s now discontinued without any replacement. The entire decision reeks of Wall Street short sighted thinking, since you can’t quantify the opportunity cost of lost future sales the way you can slap together a PowerPoint deck showing sales margins on crossovers. It might be making them more money now, but where is Ford going to be in 20 years? Are Ford-150s and Mustangs really a growth sector? I’d be super interested in a rally-style EV hot hatch to replace my RS, but the Mach E isn’t that, as much as they want me to believe it is. I’ll look elsewhere.

Reply

[-]

DishRelative5853@reddit

Okay. So don't buy a Ford.

Reply

[-]

Grayly@reddit

I won’t. It’s just a shame.

Reply

[-]

nightim3@reddit

Emotion doesn’t pay the bills.

Reply

[-]

Larcya@reddit

Brand loyalty is very much a thing my man. Both Ford and GM live and die by it. Once a consumer gets off the brand loyalty train they are likely to go try something else. Maybe a Tundra, or a RAM. Or a Rivian.

Reply

[-]

Navaros313@reddit

It makes absolute sense. Branching out for other vehicles and having great experiences means one day he might be willing to take a deal on a truck from another brand. Then, oh damn, ford lost the entire family. So, just because you can't see a step ahead doesn't mean this is nonsensical.

Reply

[-]

The_Exia@reddit

Yes but the money they save by no longer having to invest significant capital in building cars offsets this and most likely beats whatever they lose from customers. Ford has the numbers, I doubt there is a significant overlap of people who had Fusions and also bought other Ford vehicles who now will not be buying any Ford products just because they don't sell a sedan anymore. If thats the case I imagine those buyers would easily have gone somewhere else as soon as they had a bad experience with the brand.

Reply

[-]

IamaFunGuy@reddit

You don't really know how brand loyalty works do you? I'm a Ford guy because my dad was a Ford guy. His dad was a Ford guy. My kids grew up with Fords. And now we're going to add a non-Ford to the family and *gasp* might discover that there are better offerings out there...

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> I'm a Ford guy because my dad was a Ford guy. His dad was a Ford guy. My kids grew up with Fords. That seems like...not the best justification.

Reply

[-]

Gunnarz699@reddit

>.not the best justification. It isn't. but it is how the average joe shops for vehicles.

Reply

[-]

Wise-Advisor4675@reddit

For every guy like you willing to buy a garbage bin car out of blind brand loyalty, there's another 10 looking for a CUV/SUV. Why waste the resources building low margin Fusions that you'll sell 50k of in a year when you could build a CUV and sell 250k of them? Ford got out of the car game because they just couldn't compete with the foreign brands. They seem to do much better with SUVs and trucks, which is where the demand is going anyway, so getting out of the car game made a lot of sense for them.

Reply

[-]

WarOnFlesh@reddit

it sounds like you just make bad decisions based on no evidence and you're pissed to find out that was dumb.

Reply

[-]

Ok_Equipment_5921@reddit

>brand loyalty I don't think you understand how little brands or customers care about brand loyalty these days

Reply

[-]

Fizzix63@reddit

I'm still a Ford guy - 3/4 of my vehicles are Fords, but I recognize that the economics aren't there to keep building some of the vehicles that I prefer. Until they can build ICE cars with higher margins I'll probably be forced to look elsewhere. My next car will likely be an EV, and the Mach E is at the top of my list, so they haven't lost me yet. Brand loyalty is important but they know how much it costs to build a car and keep the business viable. They can't do that if they aren't putting their (limited) resources to best use.

Reply

[-]

DishRelative5853@reddit

Okay. Do you expect Ford to give a damn about one guy who's looking for a sedan?

Reply

[-]

NoStatistician990@reddit

You know they make kickbacks off financing right and from Ford right, amongst endless financial products. No automaker is only making 300$ on a car sale ever 😂

Reply

[-]

HHcougar@reddit

>They don't care that they lose a small number of sales, they're not losing much money >They should care, I might buy a different car

Reply

[-]

MountainsWeedWeights@reddit

Good, now you can see that brand loyalty is a waste of effort

Reply

[-]

Falanax@reddit

Brandy loyalty for trucks is important.

Reply

[-]

tacomonday12@reddit

why?

Reply

[-]

Falanax@reddit

Truck buyers are typically loyal to a brand, they keep buying the same model every time they upgrade.

Reply

[-]

tacomonday12@reddit

It could be the same for any type of vehicle. Some people only buy Camrys, some only buy Civics. Some sports car enthusiasts only buy the next Corvette.

Reply

[-]

Falanax@reddit

Typically people who buy sedans see them as appliances, the Camry or accord just happened to be the one that was in the color they liked or had a good deal on it.

Reply

[-]

tacomonday12@reddit

And the type of vehicle that you buy because of the brand name and nothing else is not an appliance?

Reply

[-]

SqotCo@reddit

Can confirm. I had an F150. Now after dealing with its "issues"...I own a Tundra. It's not likely I'll buy a Ford again since my 11 yo Toyota has had zero problems and is paid off. If it ever wears out I'll buy another Tundra...but it's looking like it'll outlast me at this point. Lol.

Reply

[-]

echOSC@reddit

Sure, but that's because your F150 had problems, not because Ford stopped making cars.

Reply

[-]

Oryzae@reddit

What about rum or whisk(e)y?

Reply

[-]

guy_incognito784@reddit

That's loyalty I can drink to.

Reply

[-]

IamaFunGuy@reddit

Of course.... that's the point I'm making.

Reply

[-]

greatmagneticfield@reddit

Brand loyalty, job loyalty, party loyalty, etc. All just a ruse by your corporate/political overlords to get us fighting against eachother for the privilege of being their lap dogs.

Reply

[-]

Xbc1@reddit

Oh no..... anyways -Ford

Reply

[-]

XxRoyalxTigerxX@reddit

So you’re going to stop liking F150’s and Mustangs because they don’t have a fusion to sell you?

Reply

[-]

tacomonday12@reddit

No, he's saying he might think about test driving Tacomas and Supras next before buying those kinds of vehicles if he finds himself liking his Corolla or whatever. Which he should've been doing from the start. I dunno why making him do smarter things is a letdown for him.

Reply

[-]

AquaPhelps@reddit

I think hes saying that hes saying thats how it starts. He buys a toyota camry. Damn these yotas are nice. Maybe i’ll try a tundra. So it started with the fusion. But now theyve lost a future 150 sale too. Toyota is taking up more and more of the market exactly bcuz of things like this

Reply

[-]

Civilianscum@reddit

I agree. That's why companies make a low and high end opinion. It draws people in the brand. People who buy Corollas would naturally look to upgrade to a Camry/Cross/Rav4. Same but reversed for high end performance models. They build excitement and people come look, can't afford it and go buy the mid level equivalent.

Reply

[-]

unretrofiedforyou@reddit

Your first mistake was thinking ford had anything worth buying besides mustang or f-150 🤣

Reply

[-]

IamaFunGuy@reddit

So many edgelords. So brave.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

You’re the one out here trying to convince everyone that you not buying a Ford is going to meaningfully hurt a company which sells 4.4 million cars/year.

Reply

[-]

michelloto@reddit

Same. I'm pretty close to not going back to them if I need newer transportation

Reply

[-]

BucketBound@reddit

I do really hate to remind you, but the Mach E being called a mustang shows they never cared about brand loyalty.

Reply

[-]

youre_too_lame@reddit

You’re probably in minority most shoppers in that class are only interested in the Japanese brands

Reply

[-]

seeasea@reddit

I dont think they were ever going to care about you, funguy

Reply

[-]

FamousSuccess@reddit

Former life long ford guy here, we have all Toyotas and a Chevy now 2005 forward it became pretty evident Ford began to give less and less shits about brand loyalty. There were divisions within the company, like SVT, Ford Racing, Team Mustang, that held pretty true to the original ethos. But it has become rather evident that Ford rushes new platforms and applications to market, and substitutes proper development testing with field testing customer vehicles instead. **I** **sat in a meeting with a ford engineer and heard verbatim "we did not have time to properly test the full size bronco for the designated release date, so we are collecting feedback from customers and dealerships as to mechanical flaws and updating the designs as a running change"** So pretty much we never buy Ford now. At least with Chevrolets it's all LS/LT platforms and they live/die by that. Aftermarket to the rescue. Ecoboost, not so much

Reply

[-]

Killbot_Wants_Hug@reddit

Is it really that way now? Because I had a 2008 Ford Raptor and it honestly really increased my opinion of Ford. Previously my cars were imports. But aside from the Raptor being cool in all the Raptory ways, it also seemed like pretty good quality, well thought out interior for it's class level, and never gave me any problems (also the break in oil was impressively clean when I changed it). A few years later I had to rent a pickup truck and ended up in a Chevy, and the interior just seemed so shitty compared to the Raptor's f150 interior.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

Not any less than it used to be. Rushing stuff out and fixing after the fact has been a problem at Ford since inception.

Reply

[-]

FamousSuccess@reddit

SVT/Ford Racing vehicles are certainly built and designed with more pride/dedication to the ethos. You will find that most of the time, even to today. If you had a comparable 08 F150 non-raptor, I am fairly certain you would not be as fond of it or of had as good of an experience.

Reply

[-]

suchdankverymemes@reddit

Never forget the infamous PowerShit 6-speed DCT. Ford makes dogshit cars now.

Reply

[-]

Civilianscum@reddit

The lighting and MachE has left the chat.

Reply

[-]

rssin@reddit

Is the root cause cost or operational complexity? Ford cars were a partnership with Mazda and that partnership ended, so it appears Ford took the easy route and decided not to engineer new cars.

Reply

[-]

The_Exia@reddit

Its always cost. Operational complexity is another way to say "will cost more money". Ford sedans and hatchbacks sell with discounts. No way Ford was making money on producing vehicles to sell for 20k that required cash on the hood to move. They know they can't compete with the Japanese in this segment and found it wasn't worth it so pulled the plug and put the resources to better use.

Reply

[-]

TheGayThroaway@reddit

The Fusion is still a decent value on the used market. I almost copped a Fusion Energi but then I was told that the Clarity has like twice the EV range and opted for that one instead.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

For one thing, other brands have also gone to CUV-only lineups, or maybe only 1-2 cars. Even the Asian brands that continue to offer sedans/hatchbacks get most of their sales and profit from CUVs.

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

CUV's are the default "car" shape now. People who don't like to drive love them, and people who don't like to drive are something like 85% of the driving public.

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

These are the same people who would never buy a wagon, but they buy a CUV that has a slightly taller seating position than a sedan and plastic cladding and call it an SUV.

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

And why wouldn't they. It's got a higher seating position, their knees don't hurt and it's got room for their stuff. The extra 10-15% in material costs vs a sedan is eased by economies of scale and running fewer product lines.

Reply

[-]

I_Am_Mandark_Hahaha@reddit

As an older person, the knees only hurt when getting out of a sedan. I like how my legs stretch when seated in the car. I don't like how my knees bend sitting upright in the SUV

Reply

[-]

ellWatully@reddit

I quite tall with knee problems and totally agree with this. I used to only drive trucks because tall person = tall car, but completely changed my ways after driving a friend's Accord way back when. It's counterintuitive, but a lot of smaller cars have a more laid back seating position that lets you stretch your legs more compared to the more upright position in trucks, SUVs, and vans. A hundred miles in my old Land Cruiser would leave my knees sore whereas a thousand miles in my Lotus doesn't, as long as I don't have to get in and out of it...

Reply

[-]

Aggravating_Long8561@reddit

That’s why I liked driving a base model Tacoma more than a full loaded ram 1500. The Tacoma just sits you naturally

Reply

[-]

ChaosBerserker666@reddit

I totally agree with this. As a gym going 40 year old who has had knee surgery, I prefer the seating position of my i4 as opposed to any of the CUVs or pickups. It has a ton of leg room lengthwise, plus the thigh super extender is nice.

Reply

[-]

Cessnaporsche01@reddit

Absolutely. I can do 10 hour drives in the 914 or Corvette with little to no discomfort, since my legs are almost completely extended, and the seating position is fairly naturally reclined, but driving in my dad's Acadia Denali Ultimate for 2 hours is enough to make me feel like an arthritic old man, with its rock hard seats shaped with the ergonomics of Victorian dining chairs

Reply

[-]

teenytinysarcasm@reddit

>It's got a higher seating position, their knees don't hurt and it's got room for their stuff. That's for average height users. Tall people over 6'3" will still have knee issues with cuvs and SUVs

Reply

[-]

Aware-Impact-1981@reddit

The economy of scale point about production lines is backwards; sedans aren't the "extra line", CUVs wee. Sedans we're here first. But I largely agree with you about ride height. People like to be higher, like the idea of ground clearance, and like to not have as far down to go when they get in. But you asked "why not", to that I'll say: fuel economy and quality of the ride. People sure do love to bitch about their income, but then they rush out to buy cars that get 3mpg less than they could get. Honestly 80% of us should have a Prius if we cared about money

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> Sedans were here first. True, but if we look at when sedans started, they were about as tall as today's CUVs.

Reply

[-]

ChaosBerserker666@reddit

The “CUV” shape was actually the default back in the late 1800s and early 1900s! It was designed to be like a buggy.

Reply

[-]

Aware-Impact-1981@reddit

Its absolutely fine to say the ride height is worth 3mpg. When I get old that may be me too. But don't come crying about cost of living if you choose to buy a CUV and spend 4k more at the dealer and more at the pump compared to the sedan option. That's all I'm saying

Reply

[-]

wowb5@reddit

$4k and 3 mpg is such an insignificant cost compared to other items.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

>But don't come crying about cost of living if you choose to buy a CUV and spend 4k more at the dealer and more at the pump compared to the sedan option. That's all I'm saying OK...? Nobody's gonna come crying to you.

Reply

[-]

quantum-quetzal@reddit

> And the 3 MPG difference is a worthwhile tradeoff in most people's eyes. Plus, on some platforms, the difference is a lot smaller than 3mpg. For example: * Mazda 3 AWD Hatch: 29 mpg | Mazda CX-30: 29 mpg * Subaru Impreza: 30 mpg | Subaru Crosstrek: 29 mpg

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

I'm surprised to see that even the Forester gets 29 MPG combined now.

Reply

[-]

quantum-quetzal@reddit

It's pretty wild. I just looked up the first-gen's fuel economy, and the EPA has it rated at 21mpg. When you consider how much the vehicle has grown over time, it's incredible that they've managed to make it that much more efficient.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

The switch to CVT-only must have had a bigger effect than I thought. 'Cuz it hasn't gained much power since mine, and like you said, it's only gotten heavier.

Reply

[-]

ApexProductions@reddit

It's all in the CVT. My 14 Sentra gets 30 in the city and 45+ on the interstate. 50+ if I'm on back roads.

Reply

[-]

I_amnotanonion@reddit

I’d call fuel economy a wash. I have a Chevy equinox for work and I average about 35 mpg. It’s not as good as the Malibu with the same engine, but it’s so close that people want to take the hit. It’s not like back in the day where an suv meant 14mpg on a good day. Ride quality is similar. They don’t ride as well, but the difference for most people is so little they don’t care

Reply

[-]

crshbndct@reddit

Higher car suspension with more travel works on pothole infested roads too. CUVs are just more practical. Easier on the back and knees (despite the exceptions claiming they are the rule), easier to strap the kids into, and easier to load things into. Sedans are basically dead now. Which is fine because we have Coupes for sporty driving.

Reply

[-]

Porshuh@reddit

How is it possible that everybody has backs and knees too bad to get into a sedan but everybody on reddit also thinks we should all be using public transport, which necessitates large amounts of walking and standing?

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Because the average Redditor is in better shape than the average new car buyer.

Reply

[-]

crshbndct@reddit

You can understand, surely, that even without a bad knee or back, it’s still easier to do many things with a cuv than a sedan.

Reply

[-]

Porshuh@reddit

That doesn't answer my question.

Reply

[-]

Aware-Impact-1981@reddit

An suv will ALWAYS be heavier and less aerodynamic than a car. It just is. For an identical power train, the sedan would have several more mpg than the SUV. Now you can say the difference isn't worth the cost of ride height ect, but it's an objective downside

Reply

[-]

I_amnotanonion@reddit

I don’t disagree, but the gulf between is narrower now than it’s ever been

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

Yes, millenials and gen z with their 4 kids and tons of stuff they need everyday and bad knees. How could I have forgotten. My point was more towards these people will say a wagon or hatchback is ugly and they'd never buy one, but if you raise the vehicle half an inch and put plastic cladding on it it, they'll buy it because it's the best thing ever.

Reply

[-]

Liftingcash@reddit

Most wagons are longer and shorter than CUVS which makes them look squat and ugly. Like the E Class Wagon is horrific visually.

Reply

[-]

Sid-Skywalker@reddit

True. To me, wagons are uglier than SUVs and barely offer better practicality over a sedan to consider the uglier looks over the sedan counterpart. And the majority of people think this way, and that's why wagons are a failed body type. It's just a compromise that doesn't make sense to most. I'm a sedan guy, but I'd take an suv over a wagon anyday

Reply

[-]

amanofewords@reddit

How are they both longer and shorter at the same time?

Reply

[-]

Liftingcash@reddit

Shorter height wise.

Reply

[-]

amanofewords@reddit

Lower

Reply

[-]

Programed-Response@reddit

Blasphemer!

Reply

[-]

APhatEarther@reddit

New car buyers skew pretty old if I'm not mistaken. Around mid fifties last I heard

Reply

[-]

BrandonW77@reddit

They can get most of that from a wagon, too. The main reason a higher seating position is needed is because there's so many damn CUV/SUVs out there, so it's a chicken-and-the-egg thing.

Reply

[-]

InterestingBonus9675@reddit

It's the privacy glass, parents want their kids safe and hidden

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

This is the stupidest reason I've ever heard. There's plenty of fishbowl CUVs and tint isn't expensive. There's plenty of good reasons they sell. I'm not even sure privacy glass is top 25.

Reply

[-]

InterestingBonus9675@reddit

Your very very wrong

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

Okay, so why does every single person I know drive one?

Reply

[-]

InterestingBonus9675@reddit

Privacy glass bro

Reply

[-]

WheresTheSauce@reddit

...Yeah, because people like having a higher driving position and more ground clearance. It's not a mystery

Reply

[-]

lee1026@reddit

And what wagon do you think they should buy? Every wagon on the market is various shades of crap.

Reply

[-]

tylerderped@reddit

- Buick Regal TourX - Mercedes-Benz E350 - Volkswagen Golf/Jetta wagon - Subaru Outback (ish)

Reply

[-]

lee1026@reddit

Just to pick on the first one, because I think it will suffice to make a point. The Buick Regal TourX does 24mpg combined. This is barely better than a F-150 (22mpg), and marked worse than every single mass market SUV.

Reply

[-]

luckycharms783@reddit

Just got rid of my 2015 F150 that was EPA rated at 17/23/19. Over 160,000 miles my average was 16.5mpg. I never saw over 20mpg on highway trips unless I was willing to drive below 65mph and I couldn't come close to hitting the 17mpg city. The TTV6 is a gas hog if you drive it like any normal truck owner would.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Still better MPG than a 5.0.

Reply

[-]

luckycharms783@reddit

True but not the magical 20+ that Ford claims. It seems the engine was designed around the EPA tests and not real world usage. I actually loved the truck and the powertrain. I just think the marketing on the MPG's was gimmicky, when they started touting the 2.7 and the 3.5 turbo engines as the all around solution. "Get great MPG's while getting more HP and TQ than a V8!"

Reply

[-]

tylerderped@reddit

It also has the power of a decent naturally aspirated V6. Until you get into the luxury brands, the only CUV’s that aren’t completely gutless pussies to drive are the CX-5 Turbo and Chevy Blazer.

Reply

[-]

TheBolognaPony@reddit

> CUV’s that aren’t completely gutless pussies to drive are the CX-5 Turbo and Chevy Blazer. Rav4 Prime? Macan? Outback with the 2.5T? SQ5? GLC43/63? GLA45? X340 and X3M? Whatever the Dodge Hornet with the most powerful engine is? I could keep going.....

Reply

[-]

tylerderped@reddit

Fair for the Prime and Outback with the 2.5T, I thought Subaru was waging war against turbo’s with the killing of the STI’s and Forester XT. Apparently the Hornet’s base engine is decently powerful, so, fair. All the other cars you listed are luxury cars tho.

Reply

[-]

TheBolognaPony@reddit

I did miss the luxury comment.... But is today's mostly gutless CUVs any different than yesterday's economy sedans? They were mostly gutless back then too.

Reply

[-]

lee1026@reddit

At 30k starting in 2019, TourX isn't really cheap. That inflation adjusts to about Model Y prices today?

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

Well they don't sell in the US, why would a company bothering making one when they know it won't sell?

Reply

[-]

tylerderped@reddit

They don’t market them, so of course they don’t sell.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Even when they were available and being actively marketed (1980s-'90s), wagons were being outsold by SUVs and minivans.

Reply

[-]

henchman171@reddit

My Sienna is a wagon more than a minivan it seems. Just happens to have 2nd row captains chairs that slide and sliding doors. Otherwise. It’s a wagon!

Reply

[-]

quantum-quetzal@reddit

If the Sienna is "a wagon more than a minivan", then there's no such thing as a minivan in the US market. What even makes you say that it's a wagon? Typically, wagons are defined as vehicles that are a body variant of a sedan, with the roof extended over a cargo area that's connected to the passenger space. The Sienna is its own distinct vehicle with no sedan counterpart. If the Sienna is a wagon, then so is every single crossover in existence.

Reply

[-]

TheBolognaPony@reddit

If you just change A, B, C, D, E...... L, M, N..... then it's totally not a minivan and is totally a wagon!

Reply

[-]

10000Didgeridoos@reddit

It's a lot easier to get child carseats in and out and load and unload all the kid stuff when it's at body height and not down by your knees height. When you're doing it many times a week, it gets tiring. My compact sport sedan works for me well but that's because I don't ever use the backseat except once in a blue moon, and I don't have knee or back issues. My friend for example would love to be able to drive a sporty car lower to the ground but he's 6'4" and has shitty knees.

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

I understand why they sell so well and why companies don't make more wagons. Again, I just think it's funny that people who hate on wagons buy slightly taller hatchbacks and call them SUVs. I'm not one of these people who's like "all the companies should bring the wagons to the US!" I know why they don't. They won't sell here. I just want fun CUVs. As far as I know, Mercedes is the only company that makes one.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> Again, I just think it's funny that people who hate on wagons buy slightly taller hatchbacks and call them SUVs. Because that height difference (not just ground clearance, mind you, actual floor-to-roof height is taller too) is what separates a wagon/hatchback from a CUV.

Reply

[-]

TurboFucked@reddit

> These are the same people who would never buy a wagon I have a crossover in the garage and I've owned lots of wagons. Crossovers are better commuter cars than wagons. And the market for crossovers is orders of magnitude larger, which means there's a huge variety options in that format. Why would I settle for one of the 6 wagon options when I could pick from the hundreds of crossovers?

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

All of you see this comment but do yall just stop scrolling and not see the other comments? Also, do you genuinely believe my comment was directed at every single person ever who has a crossover?

Reply

[-]

Xbc1@reddit

Christ almighty! No matter what it always comes back to wagons on this sub.

Reply

[-]

silvavenator1997@reddit

Lmao bro chill. I just think it's funny the people who rail against wagons buy a slightly lifted wagon with plastic cladding. I don't even hate all CUVs and I know why people buy them. Like I said in another comment, it makes sense companies don't make wagons. People don't buy them. The way people spend their money doesn't bother me at all lmao.

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

Until the kids can get in and out by themselves, I’m sticking to my CUV. I have no interest in bending over every time I have to get them in and out.

Reply

[-]

teenytinysarcasm@reddit

>There are few people who want a 4 door sedan that wouldn't settle for a cuv. I am one of those people.

Reply

[-]

ZannX@reddit

Most people don't see it as 'settle'. It's objectively more useful for most people, despite the fact that /r/cars exists.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

History has shown that folk here don't have the slightest idea what the general public likes lol

Reply

[-]

guy_incognito784@reddit

/r/cars was certain the Kia Stinger would be a knock out success and we all saw what happened there.

Reply

[-]

Sid-Skywalker@reddit

The stinger failed because of the horrible dealers that sold them. Even many people on this subreddit wrote off the stinger after experiencing the dealers.

Reply

[-]

HotwheelsJackOfficia@reddit

Nonsense, this sub told me that everyone wants inexpensive lowered station wagons.

Reply

[-]

Mnm0602@reddit

You mean the matte brown stick shift 2 door hatchback I loved a few years ago didn’t sell well? I totally would have bought it but the gas cap was on the wrong side which totally wrecks the experience for me.

Reply

[-]

PreacherSquat@reddit

all the moaning about bmw's awful designs yet they just hard a record year

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

Yeah, my Rav4 has been amazing. Hauling a trunk full of tools and parts for work? No problem. 2 car seats, wagon, and everything else to take the kids out? Easy, and as an added bonus I don’t have to bend down to buckle them. Midwest snowstorms and shitty roads? Extra ground clearance is nice to have. And I can still get 30 mpg on road trips, and the hybrid does even better than that.

Reply

[-]

idownvoteanimalpics@reddit

CUVs in my eyes are just lifted hatchback versions of regular cars, that cost too much. The public likes the shape and the outdoorsy vibe they give off and is willing to pay the premium, and manufacturers are willing to oblige and charge that premium. I own a compact car and a minivan, and all my needs are met. I miss my 2014 crv (aka lifted civic hatch with big tires and awd) during snowstorms or when driving in muddy dirt roads, but not worth the premium for me.

Reply

[-]

DarkSideMoon@reddit

I would almost always prefer a 4 door sedan but ended up with a CRV because it’s fucking terrifying to drive something the average F150 can’t even see because they’re so tall. It’s a nationwide prisoners dilemma.

Reply

[-]

FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit

Mostly an internally created fear. I drive both an F-150 and a sedan and when I'm in the sedan I'm never afraid of bigger vehicles.

Reply

[-]

DarkSideMoon@reddit

Not really. https://youtu.be/hx1mBKeUeLo?si=kykvG8rI8bxU-UQU You’re going to do significantly better in a crash with a heavy, high profile vehicle if you’re also driving a heavy, higher profile vehicle. The higher ride heights and especially the weight increase with electrified trucks/SUV’s just make it even worse.

Reply

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain. Please use a different source. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Reply

[-]

Nixx_Mazda@reddit

>CUV's are the default "car" shape now. People who don't like to drive love them, and people who don't like to drive are something like 85% of the driving public. Yeah, pretty much. Got myself a hatchback. I like to drive.

Reply

[-]

HurricaneStiz@reddit

I remember reading something a few years ago that we've defaulted to CUVs because we're all fat and out of shape and it's too difficult for some to sit down into a car.

Reply

[-]

FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit

I'm fat and out of shape and I have no issue getting in and out of my sedan. My truck, however, is peak comfy cruising.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Even among those of us who are in shape, the higher H-point of a CUV is still easier to deal with.

Reply

[-]

therestruth@reddit

I'm fit and tall. I was uncomfortable in Mazda 3. I fit pretty well in my cx-30. I don't off-road or live where there is snow but very much do value the ability to hop a curb without damage or hit speed bumps and driveways without bottoming out. It's so silly cause I also drive a low sports car and used to have trucks but I settled for this middle ground and it's still surprisingly fun to drive. If it were a Ford escape, I know I'd be bored of it. But Mazda handling is pretty top notch for the price.

Reply

[-]

jakeuten@reddit

There’s something about the 2020 generation of Escape that is so blah to drive… it’s hard to quantify but driving back to back with my CX-5 dozens of times it’s clear they’re not very similar. It has “car-like” handling but it still feels markedly less planted. It’s bizarre.

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

And loading kids into car seats is easier when you aren’t bending down. Car seats in a sedan gets to be a pain in the ass.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

A minivan is the easiest of all, but they're all big vehicles these days.

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

Yeah, but if you have 2 kids or less, a minivan is overkill. A Sienna is almost 2 feet longer and 6 inches wider than my Rav4. Until I need a 3rd row, my Rav4 will work just fine.

Reply

[-]

pyramidhead_@reddit

This is 100% the answer. You see everyone on here saying old people but they arent the only ones, people just dont want to call out the massive population of fat people

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

"people who don't like to drive" What a weird thing to gatekeep. Plenty of people enjoy driving, it's not just about driving fast... which is all you're thinking about. This sub also has a weird hate boner for CUV's in general, apparent by the use of the phrase "settling" for one. One could also say you settled for the S. And if you really truly enjoyed driving you would have gotten the GT4.

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

Damn dude, you took that personally. I thought Forester drivers left their egos long behind.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

Making a simple point doesn't equate to taking something personally, but whatever floats your boat.

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

Well perhaps contribute to the discussion a little? How is saying "CUVs aren't as sporting as cars" gatekeeping? That's water is wet territory. Tell us, /u/CreamCityFreak, about how your Forester is an exciting on-road experience and not a budget friendly, eminently practical, errand runner? Try making it as a simple point, for us simple people.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

Now who's taking it personally? Lol. I literally made straightforward points and you've decided to ignore them to have a little tantrum. It's all good man. Also, I definitely didn't settle on my Forester... I actively chose it over alternatives. I actually do enjoy driving it and enjoying the places it takes me. I understand you may have trouble believing that, but again, it's clear you may not understand these concepts. Not everything is black and white ☺️. I'm sure you enjoy your budget sports car, so you should be able to understand!

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

>I actually do enjoy driving it and enjoying the places it takes me. How? Tell us. Tell us about *how* it gets you there, and how you look forward to driving it again. I can understand that concept very well if you try, but you seem to want to go back to attacking other people. I know why I bought my S, I couldn't afford a GT4, just like everyone else LMAO. *Everyone knows this* you aren't saying anything novel. Try saying something novel for us.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

I see you lack comprehension. Have a good one homie... trolls gonna troll I guess.

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

Okay dude, I've given you multiple chances to actually make a point other than "Bu-bu-bu My forester is just as fun to drive as any car" which is subjective, but not an unpopular take. Go drive your forester and smile.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

"I need the last word" - you, probably

Reply

[-]

Wise-Advisor4675@reddit

Let's be real, unless we're talking about something expensive and German, 95% of CUVs are miserable penalty boxes.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

Lol, peak /cars moment

Reply

[-]

Wise-Advisor4675@reddit

Clearly there's a lot of guys driving boring CUVs here like yourself.

Reply

[-]

CreamCityFr34k@reddit

Or... or... you may not know what you're talking about and are projecting a bit.

Reply

[-]

f8Negative@reddit

Egg shaped cars.

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

I enjoy driving, but I also enjoy something that is practical and comfortable, a CUV checked both those boxes better than a sedan, even before car seats and kids came into the mix.

Reply

[-]

AmateurEarthling@reddit

We needed a CUV to make it easier getting the kiddos in their car seats. Funny enough my fiancés CUV is bigger than my SUV.

Reply

[-]

LeetcodeForBreakfast@reddit

meanwhile subaru won’t give us a turbo manual cuv / hatchback and insists people want a sedan. lmao

Reply

[-]

AmbitiousBanjo@reddit

When my crosstrek gives up, I’m 100% dropping an FA24 in it and building a nice hot hatch since apparently Subaru can’t even bother anymore. Why should I have to choose between a fun car and something that’s more capable? I want BOTH!

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

Manual foresters are awesome.

Reply

[-]

iconfuseyou@reddit

I’ll say it before and I’ll say it again.. the CUV has always been the default shape for over-the-road transportation. Think stagecoaches, the model T, the early Packards. If you’re looking to get from point A to point B, it’s a superior layout. Cars got lower as they got faster but now that chassis and suspension technology has caught up again, turns out people still like the CUV format.

Reply

[-]

Snikle_the_Pickle@reddit

Yeah, I've been thinking for a few years that we've returned to the '40s and before.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> People who don't like to drive love them, I love driving my "tall" CUV. (Is it really "tall" if I can see over top of it?)

Reply

[-]

Mundane-Gas336@reddit

I finally have to replace my 11 year old Fusion Titanium AWD and am heartbroken. It has been the best car! It has never not started once, the first time, in all these years. The salt got the better of her underneath. What I am considering is a 2020 Lincoln MKZ AWD with very low mileage. It will be almost like my Fusion.

Reply

[-]

Lowclearancebridge@reddit

I miss the 90’s. Ford had so many great cars. The thunderbird, cougar, crown Vic, escort, even Lincoln’s were badass. Would love to get an old 91 thunderbird with a v8 now that was a great car!

Reply

[-]

deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

Reply

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain. Please use a different source. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Reply

[-]

BioDriver@reddit

Based on $F stock performance it’s up since the announcement. Volume seems to be on par with YOY growth forecasts, and I’d assume it’s safe to say that manufacturing and other fixed costs are down. But it’s also hard to gauge because of how COVID messed up the entire auto industry.

Reply

[-]

teenytinysarcasm@reddit

Most stock prices are up. QQQ/SPY/IMW are all up. It's just market trend

Reply

[-]

AnastasiusDicorus@reddit

I've had F stock for years and it has done nothing but go up and down a little.

Reply

[-]

elefontius@reddit

I'm also holding F stock but I'm pretty upbeat about it based on their Ford Pro division. Ford Pro provides a full service fleet management system for business and government customers. It's everything from vehicles, to chargers, management software and services. That part of their business is growing 18% YoY and it's a high growth business with great margins. Fleet sales are 1 out of every 4 cars in the US and it's pretty stable. It's already international - F is 15% of the fleet vehicles in most of the EU countries. GM just announced they are going to do something similar in the next couple of years but Ford's been building it out since 2021.

Reply

[-]

AllTearGasNoBreaks@reddit

Dividends would be the only reason to park money in it. It's not a growth stock for sure.

Reply

[-]

therestruth@reddit

Options can be a money maker on F if you follow their trends and believe in their longevity. But aside from the dividends, it's not a great stock to hold when there's better money makers out there. I'll probably pull mine out this summer.

Reply

[-]

AnastasiusDicorus@reddit

Options on auto makers based on their busy vs non-busy times of the year are something to consider maybe, but the last time I checked the spread was less that 10% for the year most years.

Reply

[-]

therestruth@reddit

I'm fairly new to playing options and F is just one of the ones I have most experience with so that's where I started. Have one call that's up 55.7% right now so that seems pretty decent to me. Still holding cause it's got a long ways to go and I see it going higher.

Reply

[-]

upsettispaghetti7@reddit

Same lol

Reply

[-]

teenytinysarcasm@reddit

They stopped for real? This is their home why would they do that?

Reply

[-]

AtomWorker@reddit

Since making that decision in 2018 Ford sales have dropped from 2.4 million cars down to 1.9 million in 2023. [Source](https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-us-sales-figures/) I'm still convinced it was a monumentally stupid decision, especially when coupled with persistent quality and reliability issues. Both the Focus and Fusion, despite being outdated, were still selling reasonably well. Unfortunately, the geniuses over at Ford handed the small car market to the Japanese and Koreans on a silver platter. I'm aware that they still sell the Focus and Puma overseas but it's going to be an uphill battle they decide to reenter the segment. And this being Ford, it's going to be a mad scramble that will result in yet another botched launch. Ford's lucky that their American competitors aren't any better.

Reply

[-]

Cojo840@reddit

Now look at profit

Reply

[-]

AtomWorker@reddit

Profit margin for Toyota is over 10%, for Ford it's under 2.5%. Net revenue was $31.8B to $4.3B.

Reply

[-]

Cojo840@reddit

what does toyota have to do with this?

Reply

[-]

AtomWorker@reddit

Did you not read the rest of the thread? Someone mentioned Toyota which prompted the comparison.

Reply

[-]

Cojo840@reddit

In our conversation nobody did now compare ford profit before and after they stopped selling cars

Reply

[-]

NOPR@reddit

Accord sales peaked in 2014, Camry sales in 2015. They didn’t hand over anything, they exited a dying segment right on time.

Reply

[-]

AtomWorker@reddit

The Camry has outsold the Explorer every single year since 2005. Last year it was 290k versus 186k. The Escape has struggled to eke out 150k and at its high point never got anywhere near the Camry. The Accord also consistently outsells both SUVs, albeit by a smaller margin.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

You conveniently forgot the Bronco Sport adding 100k-120k units/year on top of that…

Reply

[-]

AtomWorker@reddit

First of all, the Camry hasn't been a compact sedan since the early 90s. Secondly, during the Escape's peak the Camry was outselling it by 100k cars. If you don't consider that significant, I don't know what to tell you. And finally, you're welcome to include the Bronco, but the Escape was killed off in 2021. Regardless, even when they were both on the market the Camry outsold them by something like 180k cars.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

> First of all, the Camry hasn't been a compact sedan since the early 90s. And that doesn’t change the fact it’s not a sedan equivalent to an Explorer either, so my point stands. > And finally, you're welcome to include the Bronco, but the Escape was killed off in 2021. Uh, what market are you in? Because in North America, [the Escape is scheduled to remain on sale through MY2025 at earliest.](https://www.motor1.com/news/684575/ford-escape-getting-the-axe/amp/)

Reply

[-]

baummer@reddit

That site doesn’t list their sources

Reply

[-]

ChasedWarrior@reddit

It's dumb not to have at least one sedan. Chevy still have the 7 year d Malibu and it's sales were actually up from 2022. The newest Fusion sold overseas looks really good and would sell well here in the states.

Reply

[-]

Typical_Hornet_Twins@reddit

A few years years back Ford quit selling small trucks in North America.... Now the Ranger is back and they have added the Maverick....

Reply

[-]

Bubbafett33@reddit

I know of exactly no one who's specifically shopping new 4 door sedans.

Reply

[-]

k0fi96@reddit

A couple of my friends are die hard sedans guys and I just don't get it. What does a sedan do that cross over doesn't do better? I get being obsessed with large engine sedans and things like that but the form factor as a whole is inefficient imo

Reply

[-]

DoctorsAdvocate@reddit

If you replaced cross over with hatchback/wagon I’d agree. Most cross overs drive worse than their sedan counterparts. Between the higher center of gravity and the lift kit they heave around way worse than a sedan.

Reply

[-]

k0fi96@reddit

I see what you saying but for normal economy cars, are the driving dynamic between an A3 and a Q3 really that different? And is the difference really matter in a car you drive mostly in a straight line?

Reply

[-]

DoctorsAdvocate@reddit

They drive differently, whether the difference matters is up to you. And no, it doesn’t, which is why crossovers are fine for the majority of people.

Reply

[-]

k0fi96@reddit

That is kinda my point though. Economy sedans do nothing better then crossovers.

Reply

[-]

DoctorsAdvocate@reddit

That wasn’t your original point though. Your original point was not getting why people wouldn’t choose crossovers over sedans. And if crossovers being the overall best car for most people is the new point, it isn’t a controversial opinion or new take. It’s the reason why crossovers are the most popular form right now. So your point is already proven, for example I can buy a ford Edge ST/explorer ST but not a single sedan. Everyone already knows modern crossovers are capable daily drivers with 80% of the performance of a sedan. My only issue was with the line “what does a sedan do that a crossover doesn’t do better”. They both have pros and cons.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

>Between the higher center of gravity and the lift kit they heave around way worse than a sedan. If you were talking about a BOF SUV, *I'd* agree. But a car-based CUV is not as high a CoG as you might want to think.

Reply

[-]

DoctorsAdvocate@reddit

It’s still higher, or is there any crossover that has a lower center of gravity than the sedan counterpart? Which crossover is clearly better handling than a sedan counterpart? My perspective is not the most common, I avoid sunroofs, and swap smaller wheels for less weight. The extra weight, sure, people can argue it’s negligible, but it’s still there. Just explaining why people avoid crossovers at all costs. The time where they superior at handling is close, but we aren’t there yet.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

>or is there any crossover that has a lower center of gravity than the sedan counterpart? Which crossover is clearly better handling than a sedan counterpart? Who said anything about a CUV being "better/superior handling"? Why move the goalposts?

Reply

[-]

DoctorsAdvocate@reddit

From the parent comment “what does a sedan do that a cross over doesn’t do better” My guy he literally set the goal post.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Fair enough. But counterpoint: how many people honestly care about that in daily driving? Is Linda taking her car through the twisties on the way to work?

Reply

[-]

DoctorsAdvocate@reddit

The parent comment has a part is about “ die hard sedan guys”, which is clearly a minority. If you read the parent comment, I think all of my comments make clear sense. So my comments never were about the majority of people, just explaining die hard sedan guys. As outlined by the parent comment.

Reply

[-]

Camburglar13@reddit

Then I’m an exception I suppose. Buying a new Mazda 3 sedan. Selling my WRX sedan and before that the Pontiac G8 GT. I’ll keep buying sedans as long as I can. Wife has a cuv and I’ve driven many, I see the merit for a family hauler but can’t stand them personally.

Reply

[-]

juanfelix480@reddit

What made you go with a Mazda 3 over a new WRX?

Reply

[-]

Camburglar13@reddit

Great question. Looks mostly, I quite dislike the new WRX and the Mazda 3 is one of the best looking cars on the road (particularly in that price range/market). Slightly less hp, quite a bit more torque, AWD, much more refined ride and interior. I will very much miss the manual but wanted something my wife could drive anyway. Not an easy decision and I’ll miss my wrx a lot.

Reply

[-]

juanfelix480@reddit

Understandable! The new WRX's are definitely polarizing and I've heard good things about Mazda 3's. I just wish there was still a Mazdaspeed model.

Reply

[-]

Camburglar13@reddit

You and me both. But the performance of the GT turbo is not far from the WRX and honestly it’s a daily driver that I’m not bringing to a track, I’ll be just fine with it I’m sure. And more comfortable.

Reply

[-]

juanfelix480@reddit

Yeah, those are definitely some strong benefits especially if you're dailying the car. Enjoy the car!

Reply

[-]

Camburglar13@reddit

Thanks! Keep enjoying that boxer rumble!

Reply

[-]

AverySmooth80@reddit

I like the Mazda3 design more than the WRX... BUT I feel like the design of the Mazda will age worse.

Reply

[-]

Camburglar13@reddit

Yeah? I think the rear end and massive amount of plastic cladding on the wrx will age much worse. Mazda has a big grill but not obscene, it’s just a classy looking sedan. I don’t see anything too polarizing or gaudy that would age poorly but that’s my biased opinion I suppose.

Reply

[-]

this_dudeagain@reddit

> Mazda 3 Never did like the giant grill trend.

Reply

[-]

Montti37@reddit

Agreed, there's just no truly fun to drive CUV/SUV. Even something that tries like a Macan S is still significantly worse of a (fun) driving experience vs something like a gti

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> there's just no truly fun to drive CUV/SUV /r/carscirclejerk

Reply

[-]

Montti37@reddit

Id say its a universal enjoyment, pretty much all cuv/suvs are appliances But to be specific for myself, a car I get out of and immediately want to drive it again.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> pretty much all cuv/suvs are appliances And sedans/hatchbacks aren't?

Reply

[-]

shithead-express@reddit

None of them are fun it’s that simple. Except maybe some German luxury stuff but that’s totally a different game.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

> None of them are fun it’s that simple. Whoops, looks like I've never had fun driving my Forester.

Reply

[-]

PorkPatriot@reddit

Merc and BMW have their faithful.

Reply

[-]

joahw@reddit

A lot of the core BMW market of people leasing 3-series seem to be leasing a Tesla Model 3 instead.

Reply

[-]

baummer@reddit

I’d argue that’s less about sedans and more about the cost of their CUV/SUVs but still wanting to drive those brands

Reply

[-]

MortimerDongle@reddit

The only person I know who purchased a sedan recently was a neighbor who bought a used Jetta for his 16 year old daughter. I can't think of anyone I know buying a new sedan since like 2014.

Reply

[-]

Noopy9@reddit

Lots of people are buying sedans, but they are buying Mercedes or BMW’s.

Reply

[-]

MortimerDongle@reddit

Yeah, that's true. And Model 3s (though not as many now that the Y is out).

Reply

[-]

Sorge74@reddit

Elantras, so many.

Reply

[-]

joahw@reddit

Don't forget the Nissans. So many Altimas

Reply

[-]

ChuckHale@reddit

I'm one. I have a Ford Fusion that I will probably replace with another used Ford Fusion when this one dies. Eventually I want a Cadillac CT5-V, or if GM isn't making them when I'm ready to buy one new, I'll look at foreign brands for a sedan.

Reply

[-]

FakeMBadge@reddit

I guess I'll just go fuck myself then (I kinda get it tho)

Reply

[-]

ltmikepowell@reddit

I'm the exception. Probably going to get an Accord Touring soon.

Reply

[-]

LeetcodeForBreakfast@reddit

only popular sedans i see are new WRXs, because we don’t have the option for a hatch lol

Reply

[-]

SkylineRSR@reddit

I did and I have to because the options are overpriced or have less features than their crossover counterparts, down to no rear A/C vent.

Reply

[-]

GoHuskies1984@reddit

I’ve read the US market was supposed to get the Focus imported from China but the last administrations near trade war killed that idea. Fusion is or was supposed to return as a crossover Ford Outback style thing.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

The Fusion Active is what eventually emerged as the China-only Evos. Like the Focus Active, the trade war killed it.

Reply

[-]

TwoMuchSaus@reddit

Now they’re killing the escape and edge, what’s next on the chopping block

Reply

[-]

NotoriousCFR@reddit

The current Escape is not really competitive and it's also redundant with the Bronco Sport, which everyone seems to like more. No sensei in keeping both models around. Surprised that they're axing the Edge, though, I feel like I see those everywhere. They're like the redneck CRV.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

The Edge is getting axed because Oakville is going to build the EV Explorer and Aviator.

Reply

[-]

TwoMuchSaus@reddit

Putting the hybrid Escape drivetrain in Bronco Sport would be great

Reply

[-]

SwayingTreeGT@reddit

It’s hard to quantify if it “paid off”. They probably ran the numbers and saw that selling cars (Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Taurus) in low volumes did not justify the expense. It’s possible that if they continued selling those models their overall revenue may have been higher, but profits would have actually been less.

Reply

[-]

munche@reddit

It's important to note they weren't selling "in low volumes" the models they discontinued had sold 500,000 cars in the US that year they discontinued them. Meanwhile that was Tesla's entire output in the US in 2022 and everyone considers them a wild success. Ford was very clear in why they were making the change: Trucks and CUVs made them more profit, and they were more interested in making more profit per unit than volume sales. They discontinued models that were selling 200k+ units a year and somehow the narrative was "Nobody wants Sedans anymore". It seemed to accomplish Ford's goal of making more profit now. I think their move also means people won't have a path into the brand anymore and there's not much there if you don't like trucks and CUVs. I had a Focus ST and what am I supposed to move to in their product line? An Edge? A $60,000 Mustang?

Reply

[-]

NOPR@reddit

You’re oversimplifying. You can’t just sell the same car forever and expect the same volume (unless you’re Tesla), they require constant refresh and reinvestment. To keep all of those models selling at those volumes would’ve required significant investment, and Ford decided money was better spent elsewhere. They let the cars they had run as long as they reasonably could and then canceled them, but they didn’t just turn off profitable products that they could’ve kept selling forever.

Reply

[-]

Oopsiedoesit@reddit

> they require constant refresh and reinvestment. Which is exactly Ford did *not* do. They left the Fiesta and Focus rot away with the PowerShit and people wised up and bought the better competition. And look how much dealing with that failure of a transmission has cost and will cost Ford. The new gens of the Fiesta and Focus Europe got reviewed very well (just like the last gen the US had) and sold well. Both nameplates were FUBAR'd in the US due to Ford keeping the dry DCT in both models.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

> They left the Fiesta and Focus rot away with the PowerShit The PowerShift was new for the Focus MKIII. Ford developed a poor product, but they absolutely didn’t skimp on trying to refresh the North American Focus before they gave up. Also, both cars were killed even before it was evident the transmission was a major liability, because they never made any money. In its 20 years on sale here, the Focus program never broke even once. > The new gens of the Fiesta and Focus Europe got reviewed very well (just like the last gen the US had) and sold well. They also don’t make money. Ford kept them simply because they knew they had to make a good crossover to convince buyers to make the switch - which is why, now that the Puma has gained traction, the Focus MKIV is dead.

Reply

[-]

AmchadAcela@reddit

I think the failure to produce the Maverick especially lower trim spec ones at a larger scale will hurt them in the long run compared to cutting most of their car line up. The Maverick could easily sell 250k if Ford had ramped up production.

Reply

[-]

kieranhorner@reddit

Long time Ford dealer in the UK near me has ditched the brand in favour of KGM and BYD almost directly in response to their choice to kill the Fiesta over here. I have no idea what this company is doing but their European operation seems to be a complete disaster compared to their North American counterpart. When I was growing up through late 90s to early 2000s you would see nothing but the Focus, Ka, Fiesta, Mondeo, Transit and Puma dominating the roads. I think once the current lot of eco boost era fiestas and focus have hit the end of their life you'll scarcely see any fords on the road here at all.

Reply

[-]

dc2b18b@reddit

Most car companies these days are 90% or more CUVs anyway. They just didn’t make a big announcement about it. Do any of your friends who think it was a bad decision currently want to buy a ford sedan but can’t? Exactly. Ford is doing fine.

Reply

[-]

henchman171@reddit

I mean Camry is going all hybrid only in 2025 with one engine choice only. Camry!

Reply

[-]

SporeRanier@reddit

Wait they’re dropping the v6? And I assume the TRD Camry?

Reply

[-]

TurboFucked@reddit

> one engine choice only. This is modern Toyota lineup. Most of their vehicles are available with or without a hybrid system, but a fair number are limited to just one engine: Venza, BRZ, Sienna, Land Cruiser, 4Runner, Prius (if you don't count the Prime as a different engine).

Reply

[-]

Oryzae@reddit

I drove the latest Camry and damn… it sucked. The driving feel is not there at all, and feels less zippy than the 2006 4 banger my wife had.

Reply

[-]

HHcougar@reddit

It's a *Camry*. They're the color beige of cars. The "I like to travel and I love the office" of cars. It's designed to be bland, inoffensive, and appeal to as many people as possible. Driving feel has never been a consideration

Reply

[-]

Oryzae@reddit

I know, I know. But I’m sad that the car is somehow worse than it was before.

Reply

[-]

Hyperius999@reddit

It's just a modern version of the first generation Prius (the one that was a sedan)

Reply

[-]

NCSUGrad2012@reddit

Toyota seems to just be going the hybrid route so that’s not too shocking.

Reply

[-]

PwncakeIronfarts@reddit

Anecdotal for sure, but if Ford was still selling the Focus RS or Focus ST in the states, I'd have bought a new one when I got my new job. Instead, I saved the money and bought an old FJ Cruiser and my first two motorcycles.

Reply

[-]

Formber@reddit

I was waiting and ready to buy a new Focus ST in 2020 when the new models were coming. Ended up with a Ranger instead after I heard the news. I'm not upset, because I *love* the Ranger, but I do miss my old Focus ST... That car was so much fun, and super affordable.

Reply

[-]

DreadnoughtCarefully@reddit

Let me tell you about my post-Covid Fords. I drive a 2023 Ford Escape, I have to drive it as my company got it for me, they did not buy them for everyone yet, I was like a test and they are now looking at other cars for the fleet. Well my first Ford Escape the transmission blew before 30k... the second one the transmission started slipping and they just switched out the whole car... the new car has been fine (only 7k miles) but it is just a basic/bad car I am going back to a 2012 VW asap. I dont know what's going on at Ford but their cars got very bad. The brakes are squishy, the screen displays DUMB stuff the whole time you drive telling you to TAKE A BREAK flashing red every 30 mins! I had a big explorer from the dealer for 3 weeks and that car also could not brake or accelerate fast but at least was comfy and quiet. The dealers was horrible and slow seems like they know about these issues and just mess with people .

Reply

[-]

tablewithoutlegs@reddit

Well they did add the Maverick since then, which has been very successful and probably attracts more of the customers that might want some size of sedan or hatch instead of a larger truck. I see lots of Bronco Sport around, definitely more than the EcoSport that it replaced. I think they did fine, as much as I liked the Focus ST.

Reply

[-]

edirymhserfer@reddit

i havent seen one private ford maverick. The stupid fucking fleet companies buy all of them up and abuse the shit out of them.

Reply

[-]

PwncakeIronfarts@reddit

We need a Maverick ST. Bring back the performance mini truck. All they'd need to do is slap the Focus ST tune on the Maverick, mate up the manual transmission from the FoST and viola, you have a fun to drive, manual transmission truck.

Reply

[-]

rekniht01@reddit

The Bronco Sport didn't replace the Ecosport. The EcoSport was an imported entry level subcompact crossover. The Bronco Sport is a compact crossover on a modified Escape chassis. They are totally different market segments.

Reply

[-]

tablewithoutlegs@reddit

While your facts on the sourcing of the vehicles and platforms are totally correct, I don't think they're significantly different market segments. To the general public, they're both "smaller than an Escape, but still AWD". Anyone who actually wants to offroad doesn't really want a Bronco Sport, so the person who ends up buying them is mostly the same.

Reply

[-]

doug910@reddit

Bronco Sport is significantly larger than an Ecosport. 5” longer wheelbase, 10 ft^3 more cargo area, 4” wider, 6” taller, etc. Bronco Sport is purely an alternative to the Escape, not a replacement for the Ecosport.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Price-wise the closest EcoSport replacement now is the Maverick, but size-wise it's bigger than all of those.

Reply

[-]

rekniht01@reddit

I would have to disagree. The EcoSport was a barebones entry model. MSRP started around $20K. It replaced the Fiesta. The Bronco Sport is much more up-market with actual offroad capabilities in higher trims that run over $35K and base MSRP over $28K. The Brono Sport basically started where the EcoSport left off.

Reply

[-]

tablewithoutlegs@reddit

Once again, I think that the figures are true but the market has moved the buyers of subcompact SUVS up beyond where the EcoSport was and into the base Bronco Sport range.

Reply

[-]

AnkitJain7@reddit

I will gladly admit I was so wrong about this. When the news first dropped, I was so sure Ford was absolutely dumb for doing this. To be honest, I think that more than Ford, I was angry at the whole market for moving away from sedans. Ford was the first one to just admit it and move away from a market most people knew was in decline. I love sedans, but I have to admit that SUV's have their advantages and for most people it just makes more sense to go for one over a sedan. I think a bit of age and experience with other cars outside of sedans has changed my purview. All in all, I think that Fords decision paid off for them because their cars never were their identity. It was always trucks and SUVs (at least from the 90's onwards after the Explorer). Besides the Mustang none of their sedans or cars from the turn of the century had any fan following outside of Avis, Hertz, and Enterprise. So doubling down on what was working and making products like the Bronco Sport and Maverick were way better to not only support that brand identity, but keep them more relevant in the market than some of their competition. I really like the Ford lineup right now and would seriously consider a lot of their vehicles. I wouldn't have said that a few years ago, and I feel I'm not alone with this sentiment.

Reply

[-]

balthisar@reddit

> Besides the Mustang none of their sedans or cars from the turn of the century had any fan following outside of Avis, Hertz, and Enterprise. Don't loverlood the Taurus SHO and the Mercury Marauder. Maybe I was the only fan of the latter, given the sales.

Reply

[-]

equityorasset@reddit

also fusion sport ,mkz and continental have a decent following.

Reply

[-]

balthisar@reddit

I wanted to mention my Continental. A real sleeper. 275hp and 275ft-lb, really fun for its size.

Reply

[-]

equityorasset@reddit

275? I thought the smallest engine the 3.7 at least made 300. and yeah i love the conti I got my eye on a 2.7tt one owner car for around 25k these cars got super affordable on the used car market

Reply

[-]

dajarbot@reddit

Even then, those have only really become more appreciated because they were the exceptions to the rest of the Ford sedan lineup. I do wish that Ford would have done a sport of the Fusion. It could have been a way to differentiate from Accord and Camry.

Reply

[-]

TurboFucked@reddit

> I do wish that Ford would have done a sport of the Fusion. They did. And they called it the [Fusion Sport](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15099605/tested-2017-ford-fusion-sport-review/). AWD + turbo V6. I think part of the reason it was so forgettable was the name. Fusion Sport is just so generic. If that had called it the Fusion ST, then I think people would have known about it (due to the outrage).

Reply

[-]

romancesg@reddit

They did an even better one with the Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo in Australia, then axed it unceremoniously.

Reply

[-]

idontremembermyoldus@reddit

>I do wish that Ford would have done a sport of the Fusion. They did make a Fusion Sport, with the 2.7 EcoBoost. It was fairly zippy, at least as mid-size sedans go.

Reply

[-]

dajarbot@reddit

I was more thinking more into it with a sport suspension and/or other improvements that would really set it apart, because the Accord V-6 and or 2.0T were both pretty fast as well. I am talking about a SHO or SVT variant, go after an actual sport sedan. Doesn't matter anyways.

Reply

[-]

equityorasset@reddit

the fusion sport blows the accord v-6 out of the water, the cars are night and day in every metric from performance to comfort

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

> I think a bit of age and experience with other cars outside of sedans has changed my purview. This was it for me. I had been driving a Corolla with a trunk full of tools for a few months for work. Then I had to go to a different site and got a Rav4 as a rental. It was so superior to the Corolla that I ended up buying one. I no longer had to Tetris everything into the trunk just right, and I could access everything without having to take half my tools out, and the rear hatch kept me dry if I had to load or unload in the rain.

Reply

[-]

AnkitJain7@reddit

Had a similar experience when my car was in the shop and I got a Jeep Cherokee as a rental. I was kinda annoyed but as I spent more time with it I started to understand why it's so nice to have something with higher ground clearance. Didn't have to worry about scraping my front splitter constantly.

Reply

[-]

Ghost17088@reddit

I’m in a rental Altima this week and in the last 2 days I’ve scraped on at least 3 parking bumpers.

Reply

[-]

GP7onRICE@reddit

Ever heard of a Ford Focus?

Reply

[-]

AnkitJain7@reddit

Ohh yeah those were amazing! Remind me again though, they were known for their epically reliable Powershift transmissions right? Ohh and those RS models had the most epic engines that had no head gasket issues at all, right?

Reply

[-]

devildog25@reddit

It’s such a shame, a non-ST manual Focus is an amazing car and the ST is such a great hot hatch. If they had gotten the transmission right then there’d be no doubt about how good of car it is. Although I will say, the hg issue on the RS was only an issue for something like the first half of the first year of production due to the wrong part being installed. It’s not a design flaw so if you have the correct hg, then the RS is absolutely reliable

Reply

[-]

GP7onRICE@reddit

What does any of that have to do with you saying there’s no other car besides the Mustang having a fan following? The Ford Focus has a huge fan following.

Reply

[-]

Other-Lake7570@reddit

One thing people don’t discuss enough is relativity. I love sedans too - but I only love being in one when 90% of the other cars on the road are sedans. When 90% of them are full size pickups & large SUVs, you’re forced to consider the relative safety of being in one when colliding head on with a Tahoe. Then factor in the annoyances like being blasted in the eyes every time you're at a stoplight after dark because the headlights of the F150 behind you are higher than your head - it’s a shame but I just don’t want to be driving a sedan in an SUVs world.

Reply

[-]

dsonger20@reddit

I think the thing ford does well compared to GM is a lot of their SUVS are distinct and interesting. The escape has a hybrid and phev and is a good non Japanese alternative. The bronco sport is a really good car for those who don’t need the capability of a real bronco, but still will drive on dirt trails occasionally. The bronco is a competent and good off roader which is one of the only alternatives to the wrangler. The explorer is a nice large and comfy SUV with the ST making over 400hp. They are 1/2 brands that offer a hybrid pickup. The lightning is a good offering for people who want more of a traditional EV truck. The Mache was a good first gen EV that has sold relatively well in Canada.

Reply

[-]

doug910@reddit

I’m with you there. Couldn’t tell you what GM crossover is what, especially when you start including Buick and GMC variants. Blazer and trailer blazer are just about the only GM crossovers I can distinguish from a brief glance on the road, everything else blends in.

Reply

[-]

dsonger20@reddit

The traverse, blazer and whatever else they have apart from the trax and blazer look similar at a quick glance yeah. Doesn’t help they don’t sell a single hybrid and have bungled their EV launch real bad. You barely see GM cars smaller than a Tahoe apart from the bolt where I live because GM cars are known to chug gas.

Reply

[-]

zeno0771@reddit

Easier to make sense of the whole thing when you consider that 99% of so-called crossovers in the US market are just really tall cars: Most were/are built on a FWD car platform and, other than vehicle height, have similar dimensions/capacities. Most people here refuse to acknowledge it, but it's all a marketing shell-game. The SUV moniker was birthed by insurance companies and co-opted by the automakers back in the early '90s--both for profit-seeking purposes--but those were all truck-based. Ford sold a zillion 1st- and 2nd-gen Explorers and in that time resulted in a new automotive adjective: "Car-like". The winners in the game had to have car-like handling, car-like seating, etc. Magazines like Car & Driver started treating the term as pejorative. Turns out that the best way to make something car-like is to build it on a car platform, preferably one that already exists. Eventually marketing departments ran out of letters (XUV, CUV, UUV, WTF, BBQ, etc) and settled on them being in a vague area between cars and SUVs, and cars. Splitting hairs? At the beginning of the pandemic, the Toyota Camry lost its best-selling-car crown in the US for the first time in ages...to the RAV4. All Ford's announcement did was prove that if everything's a crossover, then nothing's a crossover. You can stick a propeller on an F150 but that doesn't make it a plane.

Reply

[-]

Killbot_Wants_Hug@reddit

I actually agree with you, CUV's are just ugly sedans. And my only real problem with them is they're ugly.

Reply

[-]

willowy_mantis@reddit

I see a lot of people saying nobody buys sedans anymore but don't Honda civics/accords sell pretty well? And aren't they still sedans? I see plenty of those on the road

Reply

[-]

NOPR@reddit

Accord sales peaked in 2014 (ten years ago!), and Camry sales peaked in 2015.

Reply

[-]

One_Evil_Monkey@reddit

Camry is still the best selling sedan though.

Reply

[-]

FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit

The fact that the best-selling sedan peaked 9 years ago should tell you everything you need to know about how sedans are doing.

Reply

[-]

One_Evil_Monkey@reddit

I don't care one way or the other. I've owned exactly **one** Toyota product and it happened to be a Camry... from 1989 and that was almost 20 years ago. A pristine inside and out, garage kept, one owner, dealer serviced w/records for $1000. It got totalled at 200k miles. I happen to have a sedan currently... a 2001 Malibu LS that was given to me by family friend. They had parked it because they had a "mechanic" they knew work on it and it came back running worse. It sat for like three years and randomly asked if I wanted it. Didn't need it but it was in great shape other than the engine... I spent about $500 in parts and some time just working over the entire top end. Pushing around 200hp now. I don't really drive it much, it sees about 500 miles a year because I'm on my motorcycle 95% of the time when I go anywhere. All to say... I've got a 37 year old SUV, a 36 year old SUV, a 25 year old SUV, a 23 year old sedan, and a 21 year old truck... I'm not in any market for anything. Even the though the Camry isn't competing with CUVs and trucks as far as sales... it's still the best selling sedan today.

Reply

[-]

FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit

Nobody's talking shit about the Camry, it's definitely earned its title as best selling sedan. The conversation as a whole is about sedans being a shrinking market segment. Camry sales are shrinking just like every other sedan. The fact it's the best selling sedan is not a rebuttal to /u/NOPR's comment that sales for it and the Accord peaked a decade ago.

Reply

[-]

One_Evil_Monkey@reddit

Oh, I know nobody's talking shit about the Camry. I guess it's a shrinking segment... I don't keep up because the auto market in general nowadays just doesn't interest me... because I don't like anything that's being put out. The question is why is it a shrinking segment... is it because people were buying less of them or because less of them were being sold because automakers started producing more CUVs and less sedans. As far as when they peaked, couldn't really say, honestly, as I have really looked at their numbers. My other comment wasn't exactly meant as a rebuttle or anything, just more of a stated fact.

Reply

[-]

rekniht01@reddit

Out of the [top 25 best selling models in 2023](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/) (US), there are 5 traditional sedans - Accord, Civic, Corolla, Model 3, and Camry. The other 20 are trucks and/or SUV/CUVs in shape.

Reply

[-]

Spirited-Pause@reddit

Yeah *good* sedans sell well, Fords sedans were hot garbage and they decided not to invest the money to totally overhaul them.

Reply

[-]

FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit

My 2012 Fusion was great.

Reply

[-]

Formber@reddit

Fords sedans were not hot garbage. The Focus had a bad transmission. Otherwise, they were good cars. Fusions are solid vehicles as well. They were dated by the time the grim reaper came for them, but in 2012/2013, Ford was selling some seriously competitive sedans/hatchbacks that I would have put up against any other Brand's offerings at the time.

Reply

[-]

willowy_mantis@reddit

So they do still sell well. Which means there is still a decent market for them that was my only point lol.

Reply

[-]

Formber@reddit

Compared to even 10 years ago, the sedan market is definitely *not* doing well. There is obviously still room for some sedans in the market, but not every brand is going to be able to sell enough vehicles to make the research and development of new cars worthwhile. So sure, a couple models sell well, but that's also because there are far fewer options in those segments then there was even 5-10 years ago.

Reply

[-]

TenguBlade@reddit

The fact some sedans still sell well is owed in part to their competition pulling out. The more vehicles you have in the same segment, the fewer sales each individual model receives.

Reply

[-]

RickWest495@reddit

The Fusion was selling a distant third to the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. The Focus and the Fiesta had problems with the automatic transmissions. Small car sales were dropping. Honda dropped the Fit and Toyota dropped the Yaris. Ford was going to have to invest significant money in replacing any of those three models. Crossover and SUV sales have been going up. I think they just decided to cut their losses in the US. The cars are still sold in other countries and could be reintroduced if the market changes. I think they did the right thing given the market.

Reply

[-]

2019nCoV@reddit

Besides quality concerns, I am staying far away from American manufacturers because none of them make any quality sedans anymore.

Reply

[-]

ZZZ-Top@reddit

Around here it seems that it fucked them because I noticed a increase in Kia/Hyundai and Toyota sedans. Mostly because the most affordable Edge is trash with that gear clunk

Reply

[-]

NotoriousCFR@reddit

They could stop selling everything except pickup trucks and still do okay. The rest is just gravy. All the car models were getting pretty long in the tooth when they were discontinued, I assume that they crunched the numbers and determined that the investment in new generations of the smaller cars wouldn't be worth it.

Reply

[-]

Rodic87@reddit

Stock prices say yes. SUV's and trucks sold say yes. Keeping the mustang was a good choice, but there aren't a lot of "rental/corporate" fleet cars anymore.

Reply

[-]

DollarStoreFetterman@reddit

I’m a lifelong Ford guy except for a few cars here or there, and always preferred sedans when it comes to newer cars. I would have been more than happy to buy a new Ford sedan when I traded in my truck for the mpg’s. I bought a Kia K5 and while I’m honestly happy with my purchase and it’s one of the nicest cars I’ve owned and it gets great mpg’s… I’d still be happier with a New version of a Fusion or even a Crown Vic.

Reply

[-]

Pumarealjaeger@reddit

Their lineup sucks ass. Lincoln has no cars and few standalone dealers Ford's idea of entry-level is a badly decontented Maverick or Escape. It was the EcoSport until they dumped it from the NA lineup

Reply

[-]

Rand0m_Spirit_Lover@reddit

They lost a long time customer here, but I’m not at all the target market they are chasing now. If they still sold cars here I would 100% have a current gen Fiesta ST or Focus ST. And I know there’d be a decent enough market for them still, so it’s kind of a head scratcher to me.

Reply

[-]

drailCA@reddit

If I remember correctly, Ford didn't need a bailout in 2008, while Chrysler and GM did. I think they're doing it right. As someone who hates crossovers and has no use for SUV's - I got a work truck and a wagon), I think it's a shame that the car world in North America has died. The used wagon game is weak these days and only getting worse. I just retured my Focus wagon for a Jetta wagon, but I sure do miss the Focusm

Reply

[-]

79-Hunter@reddit

I turned to Honda after Bambi’s Daddy (a big buck) threw himself in front of my 2014 Fusion Hybrid and totaled it. I’m fine, thank you. The Fusion did its job and sacrificed itself to save me. Would I have bought another Fusion Hybrid? Absolutely. It was the second-best car I’d ever owned (the best a 2001 MB E320 Wagon)

Reply

[-]

caustictoast@reddit

It certainly doesn't seem to have hurt them. I still see plenty of Ford's around

Reply

[-]

rebelshibe@reddit

Speaking generally, CAFE regulations play a role in the market shift too. The added technology/development to meet the standard for a traditional car shrinks the manufacturer's margins.

Reply

[-]

deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

Reply

[-]

rebelshibe@reddit

Don't just blame the consumer. CAFE regulations play a big role in the shift too.

Reply

[-]

Burner5647382910@reddit

The Regal TourX - we need more vehicles like this.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Not just the US: almost every other car market is preferring CUVs too.

Reply

[-]

RequirementLeading12@reddit

Wow, I had no idea this was happening abroad too. I thought it was just us lol

Reply

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

No memes, trolling, copypasta, or low-quality joke posts or comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Reply

[-]

cody87hoke@reddit

I sold Fords for one of the largest Ford dealerships in the country for a few years starting around 2016. I live in Texas. When someone came in and wanted something other than a truck or SUV it was rare, other than a mustang. The mark up in them averaged like 500 dollars from MSRP to invoice. I told many a people that if they were comparing a Ford to most Japanese brands to just go buy the Japanese brand. We sold trucks probably 50-1 cars if not 75-1. SUVs were popular but even those didn’t sell nearly as well as trucks. Fords cars never competed with Toyota or Honda in my opinion and I have no idea why you’d buy one over those two brands unless you’re buying a mustang.

Reply

[-]

Safe-Research-8113@reddit

I see Fords all the time in Texas from SUVs, Trucks, sedans, etc. Many of them are brand new. I almost bought a Bronco actually but went with Nissan instead

Reply

[-]

theknyte@reddit

Can't speak for anyone else, but it sure did it's job of chasing me away as a Ford buyer. I went from an Escort, to a Focus, to a Fiesta. And, I've loved them all. When it comes time to replace my current Fiesta, I'm now looking into Mazda's.

Reply

[-]

persamedia@reddit

I think the Mazda 3 sedan is the better looking one I would get. The hatchback I'll always pick in video games tho you feel me? And Mazda and Ford were partners so you might run into fun parts sharing maybe?

Reply

[-]

therestruth@reddit

You will be pleasantly surprised with a Mazda. I went from a Ford Maverick to a Cx-30. I do regret it when going to the gas station but otherwise I love how much more comfortable and fun to drive this car is. If they had a hybrid version with the same pep I'd be all about it.

Reply

[-]

theknyte@reddit

The Mazda 3 Turbo Hatchback currently seems to check off all the right boxes for me, so that's the one I've been eyeballing.

Reply

[-]

therestruth@reddit

The only thing I didn't like about the one I test drove (non turbo awd) was that there was a serious lack of storage space for small items. It's a minor annoyance but I spend long amounts of time in my vehicle for work and like to keep certain items in there accessible at any time which I couldn't do in the one I tested. Other than that I love the way the latest model hatches look and perform.

Reply

[-]

tBrownThunder@reddit

Worked at Ford when this decisions was made. The answer is, unequivocally, yes. There was no path to profitability for those products. They gave up the market share in sedans and replaced it with conquest sales from a more profitable SUV market. Honda actively chooses not to develop a half ton pickup because they don't believe they'd sway enough people away from the F150/Silverado/Ram to make it profitable. That's not a "turnoff" for their customers.

Reply

[-]

One_Evil_Monkey@reddit

It's Ford so does it really matter one way or the other? I'm not interested in them no matter what they do or do not offer. They were in financial trouble *before* the 2008/9 economy thing and *before* GM and Chrylser. Only reason they didn't get huge bankruptcy bailouts was because they dropped their Volvo, Jag, Rover, and Mazda ownership/stock. They still took a $6 billion "line of credit" from the gov't and it was, at least up to 2020, *still* causing them issues. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-government-loan-department-energy-debt/5526413002/ And they've recently taken another $9 billion "line of credit" to build 3 battery plants and an EV factory... https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/business/ford-department-of-energy-loan/index.html

Reply

[-]

Slasher1738@reddit

I don't think its paid off

Reply

[-]

VexatiousJigsaw@reddit

Depends on how you measure success. Do you want to focus specifically at turning a higher profit? If so the answer is yes, especially in the near term but the long term outlook is positive as well. Do you want to focus on fleet efficiency, pedestrian safety, performance or variety? If so the answer is various degrees of disaster. Ford took their risk to opt out of CAFE and it is paying off.

Reply

[-]

Jazzlike_Quit_9495@reddit

Nope

Reply

[-]

NickPookie93@reddit

Still think it was a dumb decision. All it did was make me look at buying a Mazda 6 as my next vehicle soon 🤷‍♂️

Reply

[-]

Ohboythreeayem@reddit

God damn i wish they made more fiesta st’s

Reply

[-]

diegoaccord@reddit

The cars were selling well aside from the Taurus when they were axed. Ford lost me as a customer, unless I replace my Wranger with a Bronco. Other than that, my current S550 Mustang is my last Ford. I'm not buying a crossover.

Reply

[-]

Vonauda@reddit

I think so! I used to go to Ford all the time, but stopped going once it was only trucks and Broncos. They successfully lost a customer.

Reply

[-]

DaveCootchie@reddit

You gotta remember that the average new car buyer is like 55. So the demographic that can afford new cars is looking for room and easy to get in and out. So of course they are going to buy up SUVs in droves. We see a lot of sedans on the road because the average age of a car in the US is like 12 years. Once those go away all that will be left on the used market for the rest of us are SUVs and crossovers.

Reply

[-]

nauticalfiesta@reddit

I think it has. But I also don't see any Mavericks on the lot for sale, and not a ton of them on the road despite being sold out. I do think it was smart to pick the Bronco Sport over the Escape, but I think dropping the Escape completely is a mistake. Ford lacks a subcompact CUV. Keep the Escape name, but make it the size of the old (and shitty) EcoSport. But make it competitive. They really just need to sort out what they want the brand to look like. Chasing Jeep is not the answer, and they can't alienate the market that wants a ford that also doesn't want a soft roader.

Reply

[-]

SirSpliffton@reddit

Losing the focus cut off an entire market of white girls, teenagers, and hot hatch hooligans. That 3 banger was dope.

Reply

[-]

Heavy_Pumpkin6853@reddit

They wanted to double down on dumb rednecks and get that Dodge money.

Reply

[-]

unretrofiedforyou@reddit

For YEARS the no 1 request/complaint from buyer surveys was the lack of resale or the inability to maintain value. Ford tried everything they could so they did the last thing they know will hold values - just discontinuing the cars in the first place 🙃🤣🙃

Reply

[-]

ramanth2233@reddit

All I know is for myself I will not buy a cuv, or a hybrid or for damn sure an electric. I like older cars and trucks. Currently, we have a 02 Silverado, a 96 F350, an 87 Econoline 150, and a 79 Trans Am. Plus, I will be picking up an 02 F550 truck. The best thing is they are all paid for. They are cheap on insurance as well. My Silverado gets anywhere between 14 to 17 mpg, and that is with 300,000 plus on it. Sure, it doesn't get really good mileage, but with what I save on not having a payment, it covers my gas cost for a month. Plus it is cheap to insure.

Reply

[-]

Intelligent_Orange28@reddit

The fusion PHEV should have stuck around.

Reply

[-]

PBandC_NIG@reddit

From 2019 to today, the cheapest Ford you could buy went up $8000 from the Fiesta to the Maverick, but in 2023, the Maverick had more annual sales than the Fiesta ever did. I know that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, but I would say that Ford is doing just fine. In a perfect world, people would tell Ford to get fucked, but I guess Ford buyers are happy to get ripped off.

Reply

[-]

ILikeTewdles@reddit

I think it was short sighted. With an inflated economy people are looking for cheap cars now more than ever. I recently purchased a VW Jetta as it's one of the only non-CVT affordable cars out there. If Ford still sold the Focus or Fuzion I would of gone that route as I really liked them. I had a Fuzion as a company car for years. Ford doesn't make anything affordable anymore ( under $30K) so the brand is dead to me. I'm not counting the Mav as it's just not competitive unless you specifically want a mini-truck. You're nearing $40K to get features like radar cruise, satellite radio, and leather that are in my $26K Jetta and again, its a mini truck.

Reply

[-]

Shmokesshweed@reddit

Nobody is looking for cheap cars. That's why the average price is $48,000 at 7% interest.

Reply

[-]

ILikeTewdles@reddit

I think everyone has just lost their freaking minds. Or as Red Foreman would say " they're all Dumb Asses!".

Reply

[-]

Shmokesshweed@reddit

Yes, sir. No doubt about that. I came out at about 34k on my Maverick and that felt like a lot. And it's way less than the average new price, and I got 0% financing, and I'm lucky to be in a position where I make a decent chunk of change. Folks have gotten so used to writing a check every month for an insane car note...it's crazy. Whether it's 100k or 25k, it's all a terrible "investment."

Reply

[-]

guy_incognito784@reddit

>t's all a terrible "investment." That's true, luckily most of us understand that a car is a fixed asset and not something to make money off of.

Reply

[-]

Smitty_Oom@reddit

> With an inflated economy people are looking for cheap cars now more than ever If that were true, why are the cheapest new cars seeing their sales figures plummet? Nissan sells 1/4 the number of Versas it did 5-6 years ago. The Mirage is down half of what it did just two years ago. People aren't buying cheap new cars.

Reply

[-]

ILikeTewdles@reddit

Not sure. I guess the general populous has been brainwashed that they need a CUV and their status symbol of a car matters. Plenty of people I know buy the cheap commuter cars. Guess we're the oddballs living in our means and keeping that sedan market afloat LOL.

Reply

[-]

guy_incognito784@reddit

I think it's more of a K shaped curve. Not everyone who buys a more expensive item is over-leveraged.

Reply

[-]

Sir_Sir_ExcuseMe_Sir@reddit

It's not too hard to find Escapes, Bronco Sports, and Mustangs for under $30k https://atcm.co/VDPTXTSHRE/2a497c27

Reply

[-]

DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit

Fuzion? >Ford doesn't make anything affordable anymore ( under $30K) so the brand is dead to me. I'm not counting the Mav as it's just not competitive unless you specifically want a very cheaply built mini-truck. Its only competition is the Hyundai Santa Cruz. It's quite silly to dismiss it when it serves its purpose quite well at its price point, recalls or not.

Reply

[-]

JillHaroldLamaar@reddit

From 2019 to today, the cheapest Ford you could buy went up $8000 from the Fiesta to the Maverick, but in 2023, the Maverick had more annual sales than the Fiesta ever did. I know that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, but I would say that Ford is doing just fine. In a perfect world, people would tell Ford to get fucked, but I guess Ford buyers are happy to get ripped off.

Reply

[-]

azuled@reddit

Having test driven a few of those cars before they stopped making them, they never felt like more than an afterthought anyway. It was clear that their real interest was trucks and SUVs. I think when I test drove a 500 and told them I wasn't wowed by it they effectively implied I should have tried the truck. At the time I wasn't interested in a truck so I didn't, but having now been in some F-150 Raptors... I should have, much nicer vehicles by a mile.

Reply

[-]

Shmokesshweed@reddit

Ford should just brand themselves to F-Series and call it a day.

Reply

[-]

Logical_Ad_2960@reddit

possibly a lot to do with sales & profit margin. mustang being the #1 hot selling car so thats all we get? Does this mean Ford is not gonna sell the F line pickups either?

Reply

[-]

niklecce@reddit

A lot of state police departments are no longer buying fords. So I don’t think that’s a good market to lose. I mean, there are people buying cars still, they’re just not fords now.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Is the Police Interceptor Utility (Explorer) still not the most popular police vehicle overall? Even with its botched rollout.

Reply

[-]

Juiceshakek@reddit

Town I live in just replaced most of its explorers with Durangos. I’m okay with that though I think Durango looks better.

Reply

[-]

kimbabs@reddit

I lament bigger vehicles clogging roads and parking spots, but it was a profitable decision by Ford in the end. Joe schmo who was barely affording a Fusion will throw down an extra year of payments to get a Maverick. Jane down the street thinks her Escape is infinitely more useful and safe even though she also could barely afford a Fusion.

Reply

[-]

Shmokesshweed@reddit

Those vehicles are/were all in the same price category.

Reply

[-]

kimbabs@reddit

Have you seen the price of a maverick or an escape on a lot? Fusions were almost always discounted while mavericks are always either a higher trim or marked up.

Reply

[-]

Shmokesshweed@reddit

>Have you seen the price of a maverick or an escape on a lot? No, because I ordered one before they even got the line going. 🤣 To be more serious, yes, there were plenty of morons who paid 5-10k over sticker for what's essentially the cheapest Ford shitbox in America. And that's unfortunate.

Reply

[-]

The_real_bandito@reddit

I wouldn’t buy any type of Ford vehicle unless they’re trucks so I think it is a good idea.

Reply

[-]

Various-Ducks@reddit

Almost every manufacturer is doing this now, or in the process of doing it, so it must've worked out.

Reply

[-]

KingHauler@reddit

Ford made incredibly shit cars that were outclassed in every regard by Toyota, Honda, even hyundai once they started making their angular nightmares. It only makes sense they'd stop making them. Now if only GM would take the same advice.

Reply

[-]

Sir_Sir_ExcuseMe_Sir@reddit

So far, yes. But I'm surprised they haven't brought the Puma over from Europe to replace the EcoSport. I guess that segment is too competitive, maybe already oversaturated.

Reply

[-]

Drzhivago138@reddit

Presumably the costs involved in importing wouldn't make it profitable vs. a Bronco Sport.

Reply

[-]

Extension-Mall7695@reddit

Ford US sales have declined from about 2.7 million annually to about 2.1 million since they announced withdrawal from the market for most types of cars. Their profit has improved somewhat on the vehicles they do sell. However, I think they are vulnerable to a market downturn or a change in consumer tastes. Their sales decline is even worse in Europe and China. I think that this decision will inevitably lead to the company being purchased by a competitor - probably Volkswagen.

Reply

[-]

JediKnightaa@reddit

It’s one of the best decisions within the 21st century

Reply

[-]

pr0craztinazn@reddit

Ford dropped 500k sales as cited by /u/AtomWorker yet the recall pace is somehow just as high when amortized across the offered model range. Their lack of quality emphasis in design, vendor parts validation, and manufacturing rendered dropping car development rather pointless. I’m no longer a Ford shareholder and will not be purchasing a new Ford since nothing on their lineup fits my needs at a competitive price point with expected reliability I can get from a competitor.

Reply

[-]

KSoMA@reddit

Look at the vehicle market today and let the question answer itself. Ford is out of cars, and the new Mustang is a rehash of the previous gen. Outside of the Corvette, GM is similarly selling old versions of their existing sedans (which are slowly being discontinued) or sedans that are tweaked versions of their older ones (CT4/5 from A/CTS). The entire Chrysler group just discontinued its last "small" car, and is bringing it back further upmarket to appeal to enthusiasts as part of a global Euro-inspired platform because the market for American-style boat sedans is dead. VW sells one sedan now, and their only other compact also dropped the volume model and moved upmarket. Honda just introduced entirely new generations of their sedans, except they're both nearly identical to the previous gen (and the main differences in the Accord are to match the additions to the CRV). Toyota's new Camry is so similar to the previous gen that some are speculating it shares body panels, and their brand new Crown is advertised on how similar it is to CUVs. I'd break down how precisely the opposite of most of the above is true for SUV/CUVs, but this reply is long enough as it is. There isn't really that much money going into small car development anymore outside of luxury cars, and even in the luxury space sedans are outsold 2 or 3 to 1 so the money is shifting there too.

Reply

[-]

ThermalScrewed@reddit

Ford's stock certainly hasn't plummeted.

Reply

[-]

Dovah907@reddit

Why do Redditors hate on SUVS so much, I swear y’all are contrarian just so you can have a smart ass moment.

Reply

[-]

rhuwyn@reddit

It think it made sense for them. But, there are still people who want Sedans. So most of them are going another route. In some ways it de-crowded the market for those.

Reply

[-]

PhilMcKracken31@reddit

It did! There are more insecure men overpaying for trucks than ever before.

Reply

[-]

Falanax@reddit

I don’t think anyone was buying a ford or Chevy sedan by choice, it was more out of necessity

Reply

[-]

dsonger20@reddit

Yes. You see a ton of CUVs. Ford gas strong sales in North America and the puma and kuga in Europe sell relatively well. The fact is, most people like large cars whether we like it or not. I’d drive around in a V8 wagon but most car makers realize they can’t make as much money from those because car enthusiasts are such a small portion of the market.

Reply

[-]

V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit

Right now, they also do this in Europe as well, as crossover sales is also cannibalizing low roof models there. Their future Europe lineup would be crossover only as well. Fiesta is now gone, and Focus would be no more. It's clearly that Ford did pay off from North America side, so they don't fear to do that in Europe. Ford even seems still not satisfy to continue their current lineup, they even would kill some crossover models to prevent any money lost for possible. Edge is no more in America and Europe market, and Escape/Kuga would be killed soon. They would continue to make their lineup more simple for possible, it doesn't matter low roof model or crossover model right now.

Reply

[-]

vampyrelestat@reddit

Fords dream is to have all their vehicles over $100k

Reply

[-]

rekniht01@reddit

So... be profitable? They are a corporation. That is their purpose of existing.

Reply

[-]

SwiftCEO@reddit

Wow thank you for enlightening the crowd

Reply

[-]

Jgusdaddy@reddit

Also make them as unreliable as possible and brainwashing Americans into buying them repeatedly.

Reply

[-]

deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

Reply

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

Policy [discussion is welcome](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Reply

[-]

ManokBoto@reddit

Spend R&D money to develop a product that sells only 100k units during its product cycle, or spend that same amount of R&D money to develop a product that sells 1M units in a single year? Its a no brainer and their stock price since that announcement just proves it

Reply

[-]

RallyVincentCZ75@reddit

I'm sure it's been fine for them, but I've also heard Ford Fusion/Focus buyers moved to the Korean and Japanese sedans initially. I never looked though to see if Corolla or K5 sales went up after the Fusion went bumpkiss, though.

Reply

[-]

c74@reddit

yep. everyone basically is following them. the big question is which manufacturer handles the ice to ev transition the best. honestly, ford seems to be doing alright. early with the mustang ev and not stopping mustang ice as a result. somebody is thinking over there to not overextend and playing a good hand of where to go early and when to stay at home. the ceo seems to be on the ball - the deal struck with telsa supercharger network is another timely example.

Reply

[-]

Syncrion@reddit

For now it's fine and Ford is doing okay. As long as the market continues to prefer crossovers it's not going to be an issue. However if something like a big gas price spike or some other big nationwide issue crops up again that drives people back towards smaller cars, they may find themselves in trouble. But that's far from a guaranteed event. Though it's not that they don't offer fairly economical options, just not in car form. So it would likely not be a huge issue, they just wouldn't find themselves as ideally positioned as they would like to be. It's difficult to say if it's paid off, I think it's fair to say it hasn't hurt them. Yet, anyhow and it may never.

Reply

[-]

Naught2day@reddit

Profit margin has always been higher on SUV's and trucks than it is on cars, so why not.

Reply

[-]

Gopokes34@reddit

Seems like it’s worked imo. Only thing I think would’ve been smart is to maybe keep the focus. But idk the last focus sales numbers, maybe they were bad.

Reply

[-]

MortimerDongle@reddit

Yeah, financially it certainly hasn't hurt them. Frankly, sedans don't make much sense unless they're performance or luxury oriented. They have relatively bad passenger and cargo space for the footprint. People want crossovers. Ford (and everyone else) can make more money on crossovers and trucks.

Reply

[-]

GetEnPassanted@reddit

Yes. Their cars weren’t competitive with others and they barely made money making them, if any. Instead they introduced cars that are pretty popular, like the Bronco sport and Maverick and Bronco. Less competition for those cars and they have higher margins. Let Toyota have the Camry and Corolla and let Honda have the Civic and Accord. They weren’t winning that battle.

Reply

[-]

Junior_Corgi9151@reddit

My guess is the weak spot now in the range is a Model 3 / BMW i4 sedan competitor. EVs seem to shine in this format due to the range efficiency gains from the format factor. Otherwise I haven’t heard anyone outside of online enthusiasts bemoan the loss of Ford sedans like the Taurus SHO. If they do something like revamp that marquee with an EV drivetrain, I could see that bolstering their portfolio. I don’t think they’re suffering too much though.

Reply