[Serious Question] Did the Las Vegas Shooter have a Machine Gun?
Posted by SeveralPersonalites@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 74 comments
I hate conspiracy theories! But this one is really irking me. I have multiple gun buddies who are ex military, one of whom is a certified gunsmith, who all swear that what the Las Vegas shooter did would be impossible without a light machine gun.
This all started when an ex-marine buddy of mine swore up and down that the sound in the cell phone videos of the LV shooting could have only been made by an M240 SAW light machine gun.
I thought he was dumb, but then a gunsmith told me the same thing. The sustained rate of fire heard in the videos would be impossible without some kind of belt-fed light machine gun.
I did a little research and the facts do not add up.
The LV shooter fired over 1000 rounds, as well as a few 70-100 round bursts. We know he had a several AR-10s and a couple AR-15s. These guns are not designed for sustained automatic fire, and begin to smoke after 100 rounds, and will catch on fire around 300-400 rounds. Not to mention how notoriously unreliable bump stocks are. The only way I see as possible is if he had 100 round drum magazines on every rifle and was switching rifles as fast as he could. But as we can see in this photo he had 15-round magazines on at least 2 of his guns so this seems unlikely.
And then there is this video. I wouldn't call it proof but that does sound a lot like an M240.
But the thing that bothers me most of all, is that we don't know exactly what guns the LV shooter had because the ATF won't release that information. This is very unsettling.
What do you guys think? Please disprove my theory! I want to be wrong this time.
EDIT: Some great Responses here! Let me just summarize some of the best counter points.
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M240 SAW is my bad, I think my friend said m240. I just confused myself looking stuff up on google.
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The echo and the poor quality recording make analysis of the audio very difficult.
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You cannot hear the gun shots start to cycle up as they would with an open bolt machine gun design.
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A well made AR-15 has no problem firing hundreds of rounds rapidly.
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Those are actually 30 and 60 round magazines. The FBI report also included a 100 round magazine.
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The full list of guns was actually reported, just not immediately. Thank you nonickname87 for the link
whydub103@reddit
first, microphones don't really pick up gunshots accurately, combined with echoing off the buildings, your friends and gunsmith are dumb.
second, the plastic handguard caught on fire, a metal rail wouldn't have caught on fire.
third, thats a 30 round magazine and a 60 round surefire magazine. with practice you can reload in under a second.
again it may sound like a 240, but a 240 in real life sounds different than an ar on a video from a cell phone from hundreds of yards away with multiple echoes.
you can see the fucking bumpstock on the rifle in the picture you linked.
your theory is wrong and has been proven wrong
Aggravating-Sample80@reddit
I held a 240b for 4 years funny you should say that
HaveATotallyNiceDay@reddit
ahh yes the classic "the plastic handgaurd" caught on fire and burnt down the whole hotel room, nice man ise your brain 🤣
Accurate_Charity_177@reddit
Some theorists believe the shooting was an effort to assassinate a Saudi prince, most likely Mohammed bin Salman, who conspiracy theorists claim was staying at the Four Seasons Hotel, which occupies the top floors of Mandalay Bay.
Accurate_Charity_177@reddit
Show me one person that can sustain that level of uninterrupted fire with that level of consistent cyclic rate using a bump stock with an AR magazine.
CodyGT3@reddit
I had a bump stock before the cheap piece of shit broke, but there is no possible way that an AR with a bump stock was the only high rate rifle he used. Maybe not a M240 (I’ve shot and had rounds from an M240 go over my head, I know what an M240 sounds like) for 100%, but a bump stock wasn’t all he used or had. I got pretty good with my bump stock and even I, someone who has shot 2000 rounds plus with one wouldn’t be able to shoot like he did. .22 caliber rounds don’t even sound like that even through a video anyways. At the end of the day, if your only evidence of what happened is what the government and 3 letter agency’s have put out for the public, you should probably not trust them or anything they say. Anyone who thinks he only used a bump stock and didn’t have a legit machine gun, do you genuinely think the U.S. government isn’t going to cover their ass and not hide the fact that a random citizen was able to get a machine gun, especially during that time when Anti-Gun laws were all the talk and school shootings and mass shooters were at an all time high for the last 30 years? No, they’re going to deny it everything,e because it makes them look even more incompetent than they already are. Anyone who thinks has been in the military and has experience around/with automatic firearms will tell you exact what I said.
ClamChowder_____@reddit
thats a 100 rnder broÂ
npc1876525373@reddit
Ok Agent Whydub
Syberfolk@reddit
Your argument is weak.
Ok_Reveal6177@reddit
And how many mags did he have? You can swap mags fast but once it’s empty the mag itself takes a long time to reload even with speed loaders. And bump stocks don’t give a consistent fire rate because the fire rate is based on how u hold the weapon w them. Unless he had the bump stock in a vise modified to not need forward pressure
Smart-One-1512@reddit
You're ignorant
Popular_Facts@reddit
You're 100% wrong and clearly don't know jack shit about firearms. The rate of fire alone proves the slidefire stock lie to be a lie. Only an open bolt belt fed machine gun has that slow rate of automatic fire.
It is physically impossible to slow down the rate of fire with a slide fire stock to the rate of fire which was recorded by dozens of independent sources. Anyone who actually has any true familiarity with any of these firearms and question will tell you without a second thought that this was clearly an undeniably an open bolt belt fed machine gun.
https://youtu.be/UKcVyVnB0Sw?feature=shared
This video is undeniable proof. The fact that you would make any argument to claim that the rate of fire could possibly be achieved with a slide fire stock is not just ignorant but blatantly asinine.
triggeringlosermods@reddit
Trust the media and ignore your dumb friends who shot these guns for a living, we have proven them wrong
-fed
afl3x@reddit
High quality barrels will melt at around 800 consistent rounds of auto fire. Shittier ones less...
Aggravating-Sample80@reddit
This entire thing was 100% fake. I've seen 100's of pictures and many reports along with over 10 hours of footage of various instances that shows things from morning meetings/briefs to night time patrols with the team discussing logistics.. If you spend a good 50 hours of researching and searching I'm sure you will find the same stuff I found. Somebody leaked it a couple years ago on a YT channel and it was taken down however, not fast enough because the channel has nearly 1,000 subs. Don't take my word for believe me, search for yourself if you really want to dig up the truth, it's buried pretty deep, but compared to other false flags, this one has a ton of loose ends.Â
Important_Dig7795@reddit
What is fake about? I’ve seen so many videos of the event and sounds like bumpstocks to me.Â
Aggravating-Sample80@reddit
Are you saying you can tell a bumpstock sound versus a burst or an automatic rate of fire merely by the sound at a distance over 1000 feet? I'm genuinely curious because if you can that's impressive hah. Anyways yeah there is footage of it all bejng staged. ​58 people reported dead on the scene and no blood anywhere at all and no footage of anyone actually being shot. Rewatch whatever footage you saw and you'll see just pay attention to the details and not the screams. ​
Aggravating-Sample80@reddit
You cannot show me any video with blood on the ground with something like 60+ people dead and over 500 injured. This is most obvious proof I can give you. Also, I'll just say that using a bump stock on a rifle while shooting out of a high window makes no sense at all, especially if you're gonna commit mass murder. Any person that knew the slightest about long distance rifle shooting would tell you that you're going to hit more targets by aiming and pulling the trigger on a semi automatic gun, unless you're using an actual mini gun like Arnold did in Terminator 2. I'm assuming you've never used a bump stock and I understand your thoughts, but I have used one and I'll tell you from experience they not good for most applications. I've personally never met a single person with one on a rifle, they are always on shotguns.Â
Important_Dig7795@reddit
1 here is video of dead bodies unless they are fake bodies https://www.reddit.com/r/massshootingresearch/comments/v6m02x/las_vegas_mass_shooting_aftermath_video_graphic/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
3 it sounds like multiple shooter because he’s shooting at the crowd and first you hear the gun fire then you hear the crack bullets are faster than soundÂ
And I would like to hear a video of multiple shooters. But to be honest the shooting seems sus since the security guard lied about the time he got “shot”.
True_Ad_5369@reddit
https://web.archive.org/web/20171008192304oe_/https://r4---sn-o097znl6.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?id=o-ADpNAlL2wHnTBHzpgieuAlGGdrLFIUFJtzDSRQ2yNfe1&ei=2nraWbG8BNSE-QO6q7OYCg&ms=au&mt=1507490387&mv=m&pl=20&signature=8FEB393E771D1DCB02D6651E374915AB190DC0DF.35EF704260D9B61A49DCF1B8AB6BD5109D9FC067&ipbits=0&ratebypass=yes&ip=207.241.231.174&source=youtube&mm=31&mn=sn-o097znl6&sparams=dur%2Cei%2Cid%2Cinitcwndbps%2Cip%2Cipbits%2Citag%2Clmt%2Cmime%2Cmm%2Cmn%2Cms%2Cmv%2Cpl%2Cratebypass%2Crequiressl%2Csource%2Cexpire&requiressl=yes&itag=43&lmt=1507082886994897&mime=video%2Fwebm&initcwndbps=3116250&dur=0.000&expire=1507512122&key=yt6&signature=
Watch the first minute, the whole video is great and damming. But you can clearly here a belt fed m240 and another volly of m240 rounds coming from a second location at about 40 seconds in. The whole thing smells vile.
ilovechipotle22@reddit
that is 110% an m240.. Smells like bureaucracy
Crash211O@reddit
It was definitely “real” in the sense 60 people died. There wasn’t a big pile of dead people, the deaths happened scattered throughout the crowd. But, the whole story about the guy was fake and so was the whole investigation. Yeah suddenly a random joe with zero motive or plan summons thousands and thousands of dollars to go by 47 FUCKING GUNS and 4,000 rounds of ammo. Yeah totally believable.
HunterNo4392@reddit
The executioners.
AddmixBB@reddit
Edit 3 is wrong, depending on which segment of which video you watch, you can very much hear the cyclic firerate variance.
Environmental-Dot804@reddit
Kinda late to this thread, but as the barrel on a 240 gets hotter the rate of fire can get sluggish. That's probably what the hiccups were later on in the videos of the event.
jason200911@reddit
https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/spent-shell-casings-found-at-the-mandalay-bay-hotel-not-included-in-las-vegas-police-final-report-on-massacre/2018/10/20
Evidence shows 1050 fired from all of the ar15s. The ar10s with incendiary ap tips were only used to shoot at the gas tanks which didn't do anything.
What's makes him a moron is that he had a car full of ammo and explosives. Might as well blow it up before trying to shoot the gas tanks and getting mad that all of them failed to blow up
Crash211O@reddit
Thank you for your service in the FBI agent Jason
Environmental-Dot804@reddit
“The feds didn’t report something so ignore the evidence of your eyes and ears when watching the videos of that night” you really are a fucking clown arent you?
jason200911@reddit
He didnt load a single mag. All of them were 100 round drum mags
Environmental-Dot804@reddit
You can say all you want, video and audio evidence proves it was not AR15s with bump stocks
jason200911@reddit
Video evidence? You mean the one recording muzzle flashes from like 500 yards out lol
Environmental-Dot804@reddit
No I mean all the video where you can clearly hear it’s some variant of a 240
Even-Trifle-7966@reddit
It doesn’t have to be a machine gun to use this horrible event as a strong example on why any kind of automatic or semi automatic weapon should not be allowed!!!
Crash211O@reddit
In the early 1900s ACTUAL machine guns could be bought from a fucking sears catalog and shipped to your door. There were zero recorded mass shootings until AFTER machine guns were banned. I wonder what the magical force was that prevented people from committing such atrocities back then, it must have suddenly disappeared today.
nonickname87@reddit
How many rounds an AR15 fan fire before failure greatly depends on which AR15 it is. IraqVet8888 has done a few meltdown videos in which they fire different guns at close to their cyclic rate. Only one AR didn't reach 800rds. The plastic hand guards will begin to melt after a while, but if you have a free float hand guard (which all the LV shooters guns had) you entirely remove that issue. Now add that he had a dozen AR15s and few AR10s, there's no question this was possible.
Also, we do know EXACTLY what the shooter had. The report was released a month ago. FBI report
I'm sorry to tell you, but your friends are REALLY fuckin' stupid when it comes to guns.
Ninjaway1703@reddit
Where the website go?
Fearless_Amount334@reddit
lmao, fed
npc1876525373@reddit
Lick the boots moreÂ
stonerjunkrat@reddit
You named yourself npc And you happen to say the most stupid npc shit Nice to see youre staying true to your name
Abject_Current6643@reddit
I hope you also stay true to your name stoner junkrat <3
stonerjunkrat@reddit
Indeed current indeed
CodyGT3@reddit
If I’m being honest, trusting what the government says and the “evidence” they put out isn’t necessarily reliable considering their track record. It’s extremely contradicting. I’m not saying he didn’t have a .22 caliber ARs with a bump stock, cause he did. I’m saying that I believe he had an MG. I’ve had bump stocks and have put several thousands of rounds through ARs, I was never able to get ,y guns to fire that consistent with a bump stock. You can get 10-15 rounds off that are flawless, but you’re not shooting as many rounds as he did through one with little to no variation in between rounds. But I can’t change your mind, the government put out what he had, so it has to be true, right? They would never, ever lie in a million years, right?…. Oh… wait…
robinhoodisdaddy@reddit
Definitely no muzzle flash on either one
ClamChowder_____@reddit
M249Â
Large_Departure_3560@reddit
Nope
ComposerTasty@reddit
I see the edit. All good. A SAW is an M249. An M240B is similar but only belt fed and if shooting at the cyclic rate similar to sounds heard in the video, barrel changes are needed (takes about 15 seconds if somewhat trained) but if there are TWO M240s, then that allows enough cool down between the two, but eventually would still need a barrel change.
Addition, no such thing as ex-Marine
Accurate_Charity_177@reddit
Some theorists believe the shooting was an effort to assassinate a Saudi prince, most likely Mohammed bin Salman, who conspiracy theorists claim was staying at the Four Seasons Hotel, which occupies the top floors of Mandalay Bay.
Accurate_Charity_177@reddit
You can't confuse the M16 and the M240: Yes, generally, the M16 assault rifle has a faster cyclic rate of fire (around 700-900 rounds per minute) than the M240 machine gun (around 650-750 rounds per minute).
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[deleted]
whydub103@reddit
it couldn't be, they are already super restricted if not legally but also financially
CodyGT3@reddit
It’s very easy to own an automatic rifle, the paperwork and licensing is the easiest part of it. Financially it is not. And saying if he did use an M240:would mean the government would tell us is idiotic. Anyone that genuinely believes the government is going to happily say that a mass shooter got ahold of a Machine gun and committed the biggest mass shooting innUS history would make the government look extremely incompetent. I’ve been around M240s. Shot them and have had rounds go over my head. I know what one sounds like. I also know what a .22 caliber sounds like (the caliber he was using). He may have had an AR up there, but the continuous rate of fire for that long and that consistent is not from an AR with a Bump stock. I’ve should 10s of thousands of rounds and even I couldn’t get my AR to shoot that perfect with my bump stock when I had it. It’s funny because the only people saying he didn’t have an M240 or another MG are the people who really haven’t ever been around firearms and have almost no knowledge with them, while all they guys in the military and thousands of rounds of experience, people who have actually been shot at by MGs and have shot MGs are saying what the government doesn’t want us to here. Pick whatever side, but I’m going with the men and women who are actually experienced and know what they’re talking about over some femboy that’s never even shot a squirrel with a slingshot…
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
If he had an actual machine gun, I'm sure the media would be all over it.
The photo you linked shows a 30 round mag and a 60 round "coffin" magazine.
And he had a shit load of rifles up there, who's to say he wasn't switching them out instead of reloading.
npc1876525373@reddit
Operation Mockingbird. The media reports on what the establishment wants them to report on.Â
selner907ak@reddit
Yeah he fucking did, the echo and low quality recording are excuses. Anyone that was combat arms hears that shit and immediately knows it was a 240 litteraly part of training is understanding of what and who is shooting on the battlefield. The support by fire sound of a 240 is not mistakable we know when our support fire starts shooting because it's clear as day it's litteraly the same thing to us as a guy using a loud speaker to say hey guys im shooting a 240
npc1876525373@reddit
Why do you people get so emotional when people question what the intelligence agencies say? Y'know, the people known for always telling the truth...
Callsign_Legend@reddit
(Sorry for commenting on under a 9 month old comment, but I 100% agree with everything you said and think anyone stumbling upon this for whatever reason needs to here this.)
I was a radio operator with a Marine Artillery Battery for 3.5 out of the 4 years I served. I was the gunner of one of our M240B crewserve teams and a member of our Local Security QRF team as well. The M240B was my baby, despite me being a relatively thin 5'9" kid at the time. That being said, I may not have been an 0331, but due to my love for the M240B, I'd be able to recognize the sound of her Cyclic Rate of Fire any day of the week. So unless someone edited the footage I saw, the gun I heard in the video was firing at the Cyclic Rate of an M240B, no doubt in my mind.
Prize_Imagination_66@reddit
Please reopen this case. Watch Route 91 on Rumble!! Helicopters heard in most videos and seen in the sky around the hotels. Stuff is not right!!!
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
Your "ex-marine buddy" probably never made it out of boot camp, or possibly past MEPS, with that knowledge.
An M240 is neither a SAW nor is it a light machine gun. The M240 is a medium machine gun that has many different variations such as the M240B or M240L depending on if it is a coaxial MG, mounted MG, or squad MG. The M249 SAW is a light machine gun.
Also, as everyone said, the video quality and echos make it actually impossible to determine the type of weapon used.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
Yut. Came here to say this.
“M240 SAW” lmaoo
Edit: Not to mention, you’d see links laying everywhere. For anyone reading this who didn’t know, it’s not an actual “belt” but a bunch of individual metal links that slide onto the rounds to join them together.
Txcavediver@reddit
Yep. Here is a thread I posted with my belt. Damn links go everywhere. No way in hell he used a belt fed without the links showing in the pics.
beltfed thread
FactAccomplished5875@reddit
There are «belts» that are reusable, that is theres one long belt that dosnt fall apart
SkulkMember@reddit
Storm window heavy?
buckshotjohnny@reddit
Another thing to think about. In the footage of the LV shooting, you hear Paddock fire single rounds into the crowd the gauge his range. If he were using an M240 or 249 as some suggest, I don’t think he would’ve fired these spotting rounds, rather just opened up and adjusted elevation from there.
NinpoSteev@reddit
I stumbled over a reel on instagram with this exact discussion today. The poster was claiming bump stock ar15s shoot 800rpm and that the video sounded like 600, after which the clip was compared to a vid of a guy shooting an m60. I don't know why an m60 specifically, there's a handful of machine guns with similar firing rates. Still, bump stock firing speeds probably depend on how far they slide and how hard you pull them. Then again, I'm not really sure of the significance, as, though difficult, machine guns can be obtained.
jason200911@reddit
Unlikely since some undercover would have to pick up 1000 links of belt ammo and also pick up all of the 7.62 nato shells and toss in 1050 223/5.56 shells.
However I will point out some oddities for you... Stephen's house was broken into after the shooting with no signs of theft.
One cop upon entering accidentally fired a 3 round burst out of his automatic weapon upon breaching the screwed shut door. Stephen was already dead from suicide. His revolver only had 4 rounds which is weird.
Stephen only reloaded his fn Hershal ar15s. All other guns were abandoned after the initial drum mag was empty. He seemed to have preloaded the mags to 95 rounds for most, maybe he believed it made it more reliable or easier on the mag lips?
He failed to use or position his car bomb like a moron, which all it would take is a round from his 308 unlike his failed attempts at trying to blow up gas tanks in Las Vegas with incendiary .308. One man was imprisoned for 13 years for selling Stephen the armor piercing ammo without a manufacturing license.
https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/spent-shell-casings-found-at-the-mandalay-bay-hotel-not-included-in-las-vegas-police-final-report-on-massacre/2018/10/20
NinpoSteev@reddit
Fair assessment.
m66x@reddit
https://youtu.be/yMy75Mte0Hk Here's a video of an ar15 with a bumpstock and 100 round mag with a similar rate of fire. To those who think that the videos of the shooting sound nothing like an ar need to do some digging.
Environmental-Dot804@reddit
The problem isn't the rate of fire, it's the fact that it could hold that rate of fire for consistently for such a long burst (50+ rounds) that makes bump stocks unbelievable for anyone that has ever passed basic training or fired the 240.
jason200911@reddit
Ar can handle above 50 just fine. Cycle roblems only start to occur around 300 or 400. Before that it's just extra harsh on the barrel and ruins the life of the grooves
Environmental-Dot804@reddit
Regardless, the report of the weapon used, the rate of fire, and that rate of fire for such an extended period of time perfectly matches an m240. Simple as that. I have gone to several ranges with the 240 and the videos of the vegas shooting sound exactly like the 240.
jason200911@reddit
https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/spent-shell-casings-found-at-the-mandalay-bay-hotel-not-included-in-las-vegas-police-final-report-on-massacre/2018/10/20
Generally 95 rounds were fired per bump stock ar15 using drum mags, for the most part no reloads were done at all except for the fn hershel rifles. 8 were fired from 2 ar10s. 1 fired from his revolver
Any shells that flew out the window may not have been recovered.
Ill_Attention_1800@reddit
I just want to see the pile of brass
4BoarsMoreWhores@reddit
I know this is a bit late but go look up the raw footage listen to it and tell me if that sounds like an AR-15
ZackeroniVR4@reddit
Absolutely sounds like a 240b