Stellantis est utilisé en France par près de 5000 personnes pour le moteur Puretech qui présente des défauts de conception majeurs: [https://today.rtl.lu/news/business-and-tech/a/2208966.html](https://today.rtl.lu/news/business-and-tech/a/2208966.html), [https://celinepina.fr/stellantis-en-crise-les-moteurs-puretech-de-peugeot-et-citroen-sous-le-feu-des-critiques/](https://celinepina.fr/stellantis-en-crise-les-moteurs-puretech-de-peugeot-et-citroen-sous-le-feu-des-critiques/)
Groupe FB français de l'action en justice: [https://www.facebook.com/groups/974101119789655/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/974101119789655/)
Espagne: [https://www.facebook.com/groups/188929267425217/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/188929267425217/)
Belgique: [https://www.facebook.com/groups/1073283743678463/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/1073283743678463/)
Également poursuivi aux Pays-Bas pour fraude en matière d'émissions: [https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dutch-group-sues-stellantis-over-alleged-emissions-cheating-2024-08-28/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dutch-group-sues-stellantis-over-alleged-emissions-cheating-2024-08-28/)
Stellantis poursuivie en justice par ses propres actionnaires pour falsification de résultats financiers : [https://qz.com/stellantis-earnings-shareholder-lawsuit-1851624360](https://qz.com/stellantis-earnings-shareholder-lawsuit-1851624360)
Également poursuivi pour des problèmes de dépôts d'AdBlue :[https://www.brusselstimes.com/1163434/car-manufacturer-threatened-with-legal-action-over-diesel-exhaust-fluid-issues](https://www.brusselstimes.com/1163434/car-manufacturer-threatened-with-legal-action-over-diesel-exhaust-fluid-issues)
You speak of the Hurricane engine inline 6 with 2 turbos on it. Stellantis is putting it in everything including Ram and Jeep. It also can be tuned to 700hp. Should last a real long time?
In general, the Inline 6 configuration has a pretty stellar track record for reliability. See the XJ Cherokee, E46, Mercedes Benz M104, 2JZ, so on and so forth.
I’d wager that the first thing to have a problem would be the twin turbos.
I know is a bummer that the Hemi engine is gone forever for production cars, but an inline six cylinders have an inherent record of reliability due it's inherent balance and compact footprint for it's cylinder count. Also I can bet that the aftermarket companies, like Garrett Motion and BorgWarner, will give you better drop-in replacements. Just look how good are their upgrade catalog! From Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X's to Volkswagen 1.8, and even the newer and slightly older GM Duramax and Ford Powerstroke diesel engines, and most of the time, you can keep your car with its emissions street legal! I would already imagine that this would be capable for a thousand horsepowers or even more with a few modifications.
It's a lot more than a few mods for 1000+whp. By that point your already 20k+ in the whole, it was like 30k all in for my mustang I sold to "reliably" handle 1150whp without a 150 shot.
Coyotes are gonna need a lot more work to hit 1000. A straight 6 is generally much stouter where the bottom end may be able to take 1000 stock. I haven't looked into this engine any so it may not, but general rule any v8 will need a lot more money to hit big numbers vs straight six. Especially when you're chasing torque lol
Agreed, you can run 1000 on a stock motor coyote people do it all the time but that's just testing your luck lol Believe me I know, thats been my main focus with my ZL1 is a torque monster so I can have great corner exit acceleration. Big custom grind cam, heads, Ported tb and blower etc etc shits a task more than likely gonna end up going 416 and calling it a day. Hopefully it is a stout motor, the 6.2 couldn't take boost to save its life in stock form main reason why I dont get the complaints
Inline 6 engines are not compact, they're longer than V8s by quite a bit. It's just easier to deal with a lot of the usual junk going on with modern engines because there's only one cylinder bank.
You can definitely tell that motor is the V8 equivalent of the FA in terms of fragility. I always thought it was a bit funny the 5.7 was the more stout motor tho
Im waiting for the version with a single large brushed motor like a 2005 dewalt cordless drill, because brushed motors truly are the pushrod engines of the electric motor world.
Look, I’m all for electric vehicles and all that. But they have to stop forcing them on the least receptive markets first.
Electric econocars? Great idea!!
Electric SUVs? Bring it!!
Electric minivans? That’s awesome
Electric midsize sedans? Good times
Electric luxury cars? I can see how they can have a great ride and performance, cool.
What about creating those? Instead they want to force us to call whatever monstrosity the Mustang Mach-E is a Mustang (it’s an SUV!!!) and now they want to force us to call this electric thing a muscle car, which is incredibly awkward because muscle cars are defined by their engine - a big displacement V8. Muscle cars are pretty much the antithesis of electric cars.
This tells me how disconnected execs are from the industry they pretend to run. The days of guys like Iacocca or Lutz running the companies are far gone
The jury is still out on this. I have a hard time believing the current customer base is going to be interested in buying an EV Charger or Challenger, and customers looking for a fast EV would probably go elsewhere. Who knows for sure though.
> Future Charger lineup will also offer two internal-combustion engine options with 550-horsepower Dodge Charger SIXPACK H.O. and 420-horsepower Charger SIXPACK S.O., powered by 3.0L Twin Turbo I-6 Hurricane engine
A charger with a twin turbo I6 is just such a weird thing to comprehend. Not as hard to imagine as an electric drivetrain, but still strange.
> **Race Options:** The Charger is offering more options than ever to explore muscle car performance with new **Donut** and **Drift Modes** exclusive to the Daytona Scat Pack, the return of popular **Launch Control** and **Line Lock** and Dodge-exclusive race-prep options
They are at least trying to keep the hooning alive.
They're basically alienating almost their entire current fanbase, hopefully for Dodge they can attract enough new customers. Personally I'm interested in an EV and hoping this is the first _cool_ one, despite previously owning a scat pack I'm not going to just write this off like a lot of Dodge fans.
I don't care either way. If it's fun, affordable, fast, and comes in green or purple sign me up. Same goes for any manufacturer really. Times change, fun doesn't have to.
I'm curious what exactly is an "EV muscle car"?
Is it the looks at this point? Because the Charger Daytona EV doesn't employ any of the traditional "muscle car" attributes.
Right there with you. I currently own a 22 Scat Pack and love it. But... The new charger might be the coolest EV car I've ever seen. I'm definitely interested in at least test driving it in person rather than writing it off because it doesn't have a HEMI. 670 HP for the EV Scat and 550 HP for the i6 Scat are crazy stats tbh
Former Challenger owner and current EV owner, this is *exactly* what I am looking for.
A 2-door, 4-seat EV with solid performance, good looks, presumably designed to handle modestly well and not like a family crossover, and is reasonably well appointed at a relatively decent price? *Exactly* what I want.
I’m honestly not trying to pick a fight but have you ever driven a well-sorted fast EV? Obviously the engine sound isn’t there but having owned an STI and even 68 road runner back in the day, my Kia is easily the fastest and funnest.
If the Kia is more fun than the STi then you didn’t put the STi in its proper element. I owned one for several years in a place where it snowed for 5-6 months out of the year. It was by far the most fun of all the cars I’ve owned when the streets were slippery. On normal dry pavement, not so much.
You’ve had an open mic this entire time to outline why you feel the way you do. Not much guessing is needed to understand you don’t have any good points besides mash the pedal and go quickly. You haven’t said much and that’s plenty enough to understand.
You follow instructions well - still guessing, exactly like I told you to do. Good boy (er, girl? You’re so emotional about this 😂).
Either way, I’m proud of you ❤️.
Call me daddy.
Now.
Ehh I woulda thought the same before I bought the EV6. It’ll supposedly lap Nurburgring around 7:40, which is like 458 Italia/GTR/M5 Competition territory. If they’re set up right they’re pretty rad.
No, you haven't, but I'm making a guess based on Dodge hopefully not shitting the bed by pricing the mid-range models outside of the realm that the existing Challenger and Charger occupied.
I would hazard to guess that the Daytona R/T will be in the $50k range, with the Scat Pack hitting the $60s-$70s, and the SRT/Banshee occupying the $80k+ range previously filled by the Hellcats.
As a Tesla owner, it seems like it has more buttons, stalks, and a real PRNDL, so that's attractive to me. The style seems cool too though I need to see one in person to really know. The weight is, well unfortunate but if it drives and road trips fine, it might be a decent option in a few years if/when I change cars.
I think people might be surprised how well the EV version sells, if the pricing is right. The 4xE was kind of a surprise hit given the stereotype of that demographic, this might be too.
I’ll caveat by saying I’m not a car guy.
If I’m looking for my next car, I’d want to know if this thing has all the features that I’m used to.
Ability to control from my phone, autopilot, sentry mode and dog mode etc. And just as importantly superchargers and ability to seamlessly charge and do it fast.
I think at the very minimum, a good phone app and easy and fast charging are must haves.
After all, if I wanted a fast car I could simply buy a Model S Plaid — 0-60s in 2 seconds :)
This may well be compatible with superchargers given the industry is moving towards NACS as a charging standard after Tesla opened it up.
And, as a bonus, the panels will likely be aligned correctly too!
Tesla’s QC isn’t perfect but by and large, I really wish other carmakers had the user experience of Tesla.
Once you are used to it and used to driving one, every other car feels so… old.
Different strokes for different folks I think. People interested in this new Charger won't be as interested in autopilot or summoning features, and they prefer their roofs in carbon fiber rather than glass. They just want something that's quick and has character, and costs substantially less than a new model S.
No because all they do is keep going back to the well of old names instead of coming up with something new. And why tf are they calling this the Dodge Charger *Daytona*. Daytona is a trim level, not a model. They should have left it as "Charger" or even drop the charger all together and call it a Dodge Daytona. But calling the car a trim level, and then having trim levels added on to that is just confusing and clunky. Lastly, what does this car even have to do with Daytona?? I've been a big mopar fan for most of my life, and I support almost all of their creations, but the naming committee f'd this one up hard. When they announced the concept car as the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT Banshee I couldn't help but cringe.
No, because of stuff like this:
> Driver-focused, immersive interior design includes new 64-color Attitude Adjustment interior lighting that reacts to vehicle events and select driver inputs
> The Dodge Charger Daytona R/T is expected to deliver more than 317 miles of range, while the higher performance Charger Daytona Scat Pack provides 260 miles of all-electric range.
That's awesome. I have to drive Baltimore-Pittsburgh sometimes so knowing that the Charger will make it without recharging is a relief. We usually stop halfway for 20-30 minutes so I would be able to top up then but knowing I don't have to helps.
Really, the only thing keeping me from EV is charging infrastructure. From what I have seen with what is available for charging in my area, many of the chargers either don't output what is advertised, or they are out of service.
If you are going to be reliant on public charging, it's fair to be skeptical. The only way it makes sense for 99% of people is overnight charging in a private garage, then using public chargers for the occasional long distance drive.
> If I asked customers what they wanted they would have said "faster horses"
- Steve Jobs
(usually Henry Ford is credited with this thing he never said)
> I have a hard time believing the current customer base is going to be interested in buying an EV Charger or Challenger, and customers looking for a fast EV would probably go elsewhere.
I want an EV coupe. I don't need it to be the fastest thing around, but I want it to be interesting, and the combination of the styling and subversion make the EV Charger interesting to me. By subversion I mean it looks like it should be a loud, brash, obnoxious hooligan machine but instead it can just cruise along or take off into the distance with hardly a sound. Or you can use the "Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust" if that's your thing.
...that is, I was interested until I saw the interior. Turns out it's still a Dodge product. I'd have to sit in it to form a proper opinion, but from the photos it doesn't look like a nice place to be.
I don't want it to *be* loud and brash. It's specifically the dissonance between it looking like it should be and the lack of noise that makes it interesting to me. That has nothing to do with whether or not it feels cheap on the inside. You can have a striking exterior and an interior with high quality materials at the same time. From the photos it doesn't look like the materials will be nice to the touch. But like I said, that's not something you can conclude unless you actually touch them.
Tbh I'm just not the target buyer for a muscle car even though I tried to convince myself I could be when this electric version was announced. To me, part of the point of a muscle car is that you sacrifice some niceties for power. This car stays true to that, and when I saw the interior photos I remembered that I'm happy to sacrifice some power for niceties, so it's just not a great match. Take nothing away from the car though, I think it's still a potentially great and unique option in the EV space. Realistically it's just probably not for me.
I know sales figures and projections are based on current numbers and users, but did you watch their video? They’re basically saying they don’t care about that and want new - both tech and users.
They also have the inline 6 twin turbo for current customers who don’t want change
I mean I am but I'm definitely not the current charger. Challenger target market
In my mid thirties, I have a simple commute, I want to feel the power/be cool... this would work for me.
So does my Subaru🫠
Police departments are probably planning to buy the high output six sedan in bulk ***as we speak,*** lol. Finally, a cop car that looks as mean as they act! /s
The EV would actually make a great patrol car if they release a 4 door version. Extended idling time is wasteful and terrible for engines. Wear and tear on an EV in those conditions is considerably less. They'd be good for chases too. By the time an EV starts to be power- or range-limited the chase should either be called off or handed over to someone else anyway.
Ford has a hybrid Explorer Police Interceptor but I have no idea why they didn't add the solar roof that the new Prius has. Apparently the solar roof on the Prius can generate enough power to run the AC on a hot, sunny day.
I talked to my local police about this a while back. The one guys’d concern was that with level 2 chargers you’d have to have some downtime each day to charge. They currently fill the gas every shift on their cruisers.
In a hypothetical where EV use is widespread among police I'd expect some high voltage Level 3 chargers at or near the station as well as Level 2 chargers for overnight charging. But this would all need to be part of a high-level planning initiative, which we don't have for police use.
DC fast charging is hundreds of thousands of dollars per station (the equipment, construction, wiring etc), so unless cost comes way down or there are major subsidies, adoption would be pretty limited at least initially
Not really...yeah technically a cop may not really drive far persay but over a 12 hour shift with several calls, AC running the entire time, patrols, I doubt the battery will last the whole day. Realistically, for emergency equipment the best is just what works and is currently proven to work. I can see departments trying out an EV as a single test vehicle but not purchased in fleet form.
United Rentals bought a ton of F150 Lightnings to rent out to large construction sites, I delivered and picked up a bunch, and each guy said they didnt last nearly a whole day of going around the jobsite and between jobsites. They werent even using them for heavy duty stuff, just regular construction site light duty pickup stuff.
> Realistically, for emergency equipment the best is just what works and is currently proven to work.
On one hand, yes. You need what works now and that shouldn't be compromised. But on the other hand, EVs should be tested IMO because ICE cars are bad from both a pollution and reliability standpoint for that particular application. When EVs can do the job without any interruptions, they should replace ICE cars when they're at end of life.
I assume the F150 Lightnings didn't work out partly because of how much range is impacted by any added weight. That's an area EVs just aren't competitive in yet.
Heat? Regardless, a lot of testing and research goes into emergency vehicle before they're put into service that goes beyond taking someone's word on reddit for it.
It depends on a department, I used to want to be a cop and would look up a bunch of different police departments in states I lived in and most of the advertise taking your cruiser home as one of the perks and again they usually work 8 hour shifts, I went on ride alongs and most of the time we would be sitting and cop would be looking at the laptop or on a side of the road pulling someone over so again not driving, or at the pd filling paperwork out. They aren't actually driving that much, if you have chargers at the pd and at their home its not that big a deal.
Agreed. EVs make the most sense for nearly all government vehicles. It’s rare that they need to drive more than 200 miles, they “idle” with wasting essentially no fuel, and they insanely cheap to maintain.
Cold weather: Exactly why being able to plug in at medical facilities and at the station to top off while waiting is ideal. Incorporating a heat pump into EV ambulances would save considerable range as well.
Hot weather: running AC has a negligible effect on battery life. All you’re running is an AC pump and blower. You can find multiple tests online of people running AC vs off on hot days and the effect on efficiency was basically nothing. A recent post on the Mach E sub was a user who used their car as a “cooling station” on a movie set. They were in a remote location in 90+ degree weather. Kept the car running all day (~12 hours IIRC) with the AC maxed and only used 8% of the battery. They didn’t do a control where they left the car on for 12 hours with the AC off, but 8% in 12 hours is nothing.
As I said most, not all. However, your driving distance is going to vary widely by city and how densely populated the area that your emergency services cover. Using even the most generous estimates the average daily miles driven for an ambulance is between 60- 170 miles/day. The horrible fuel economy experienced by ambulances is due to idling at the scene of accidents and when dropping off/picking up patients at medical facilities. They’re forced to idle because they need to keep all of the instruments running in the patient care area. Many hospitals already have the infrastructure for ambulances to plug in so they don’t have to idle, imagine if EV ambulances could just plug in and charge while they’re waiting at the hospital. Or at the station while waiting for the next call.
Police cars
Ambulances
Fire trucks
Boarder patrol
All of these vehicles spend 80-90% of their time not moving and wasting gas while idling. None of them typically pass 200 miles/day. EVs make more sense in every one of these cases.
What’s the top speed on these electrics with a single gear? 120? That’s obviously fast but not high speed chase fast. A hybrid or multi gear EV would sick tho
Ah. Nice to have confirmed specs, but a bit of a shame. I mean, if ***Hyundai and Kia*** can make EVs that hit 155 no problem, then why can't Stellantis? (Yes, I know why, but still... bit embarrassing. Hope future updates fix that.)
idk what motors Dodge is using but you can go a lot faster than that with a single gear motor. The Granturismo Folgore has a single gear AFAIK and a 202 mph top speed.
Not to mention the silent killer, idle time. You can find a cruise at auction with "low" miles but a million idle hours. EVs are PERFECT for this purpose.
Eh, they seem like they're all about SUVs now. Room for gear, ease of entry and exit when wearing gear, can go up against other SUVs and trucks instead of being pushed around.
The state highway patrol seems to be the only ones buying Chargers in my area. Otherwise local police/sheriff's depts. are going almost entirely with Explorers, Tahoes, and a few Durangos.
Well that makes sense NOW, given those cars are starting to catch up to the aging Charger (which the 5.7 barely holds any lead to the Ecoboost iirc). I wouldn't be surprised if that changes with the more powerful hurricane engines.
I’m very interested in the gas version. Looks great and numbers are promising. I’d definitely be putting my money where my mouth is and putting a deposit down if they added a manual option, but that’s probably just cope now lol. Still seems amazing though
I’m sorry this is so stupid. The video they made was one of the most low budget, convoluted ridiculous things we’ve ever seen. It just oozed desperation and shows how incredibly disconnected Stellantis is from the core. These guys are so lost.
First off, he essentially said that in order to build a “muscle EV” they had to make it not efficient or green. So he’s saying they purposely engineered a bad EV but that somehow makes it awesome and we should drop 60k on the BASE. With the first coming standard with stage 1 upgrades the RT is slower than a v8 scat pack and the EV Scat Pack is only marginally faster than the v8 scat pack while get less eMPG and sounding like vacuum.
The core mopar guys will never buy this. The gen-z buyer with good income will never buy this with competition being both faster and more efficient. So what exactly was the point of this car?
Disgusting sound, no soul, and these shit heaps weigh an extra 2000 lbs so they are not any quicker in reality.. Top speed also in 130s, I have done more.
>0-60 mph in 3.3 seconds, retaining its title as the world’s quickest and most powerful muscle car"
>quarter-mile in 11.5 seconds
Admittedly very quick but also on par with other performance EV sedan/crossovers like the EV6 GT, Mach-E GT and Model 3 Performance.
Honest question: What makes this specifically a muscle car at this point? Just the nameplate?
The fenders seem a bit taller here than on the concept IIRC. The concept car was really well done. I coukd see north-american cops driving these in te enar future.
Standard AWD is a huge selling point, and I think they put Stow and Go in this to have a better shot against the dominant Explorers. However, it's nice to see that us consumers can get Johnny Law's goodies too. ;)
My dad bought a minivan recently for his new daily, and stow n go seats were the only other option he cared about aside from cruise control. His metric for a good car is can it fit a sheet of plywood.
This has to be one of the stupidest product launches of all time. Make no mistake this will go down with Edsel levels of stupidity. There is no market for this car. EV enthusiasts aren't going to buy dodge (there's Rivian, Lucid, Tesla, etc, who own that market.) This is too expensive and not what today's shoppers are looking for. Today's shoppers want cross-over SUVs.
There is no market for an EV muscle car/coup that justifies launching this product in 2023, it will lose Dodge/Stellantis BILLIONS of dollars.
All of the execs who have anything to do with this car should be fired.
Dodge needs a compact SUV, midsize SUV, and the minivan, instead we get these overpriced, overpowered, ego wagging vehicles that nobody is going to buy.
Dodge now stands for dead old dying geriatric ending
Apparently the Tesla Model S Plaid and Lucid Air Sapphire aren't muscle cars. Muscle car doesn't mean performance, it just means retro inspired design.
...I mean, are they? They certainly don't *look* or *feel* like muscle cars, but are more like EV M5s. And I think that's what Dodge is trying to get at - that's it's possible to use new technology to keep the traditions alive.
Yeah nothing about those cars is “muscle” lol. An m4 might be a faster car than a scat pack or whatever, but only one of those is a muscle car and it has nothing to do with speed
Shit, you can even call the M4 a muscle car if you think about it. It'd be a hell of a stretch, but - much like the dearly departed V8 C63 - it kinda works if you can think about it. A Tesla, meanwhile, just ***isn't*** one.
An M4 is not a muscle car. An M4 put as much work into breaks and suspension as it does an engine which is what makes it not a muscle car. A muscle car was a taking a consumer vehicle like a dodge Coronet and sticking an 8 liter engine in it with minimal other improvements
I think it just depends on what you define as a muscle car.
Everyone has their own definition, and personally mine is loud V8 with stupid power and straight line speed, with not much focus on anything else. Anything close is just a sports car.
So for me, this new EV charger and my model 3 performance are under the same tree. Both got sub 3.5 sec 0-60, both will gap most cars at the stop light, and both don't have a large focus on any creature comforts. But because they *don’t have a loud V8,* I wouldn't call them muscle cars. Sports sedan/car is more fitting.
If your definition is straight line speed, big power, and 'who cares about the rest', *regardless* of powertrain, this new EV charger is a muscle car. And so is the model 3 performance. The fundamentals of both are the same.
> Everyone has their own definition, and personally mine is loud V8 with stupid power and straight line speed, with not much focus on anything else. Anything close is just a sports car.
So then Camaros are just sports cars too?
> But because they don’t have a loud V8
The V8 distinction is silly, muscle cars have always been performance-oriented "everyday" cars and they've always been offered with other powertrains. Things like the M2 and M3P definitely fit the bill. The noise thing is only an association because you couldn't really get performance without the noise until now.
I mean yea, the Camaro and Mustang started as pony cars after all, not muscle. And recent performance levels have been considered more of sports cars. You can probably still call the lower trims pony cars.
The Challenger has been the only traditional American muscle car left for a while.
> I mean yea, the Camaro and Mustang started as pony cars after all, not muscle.
Gotcha, trying to have a discussion at this level of semantics is not enjoyable to me but thanks for sharing your perspective it was very interesting!
If the Camaro is a V6, then yeah for *me personally*, it's more a sports car than muscle car (emphasis on ***me personally***). For me, an LT1 or SS is what I imagine when I think Camaro.
If any Camaro is a muscle car for most other people that's *totally fine* by me!
The V8 is just my way of narrowing it down, obviously doesn't need to be the be-all end-all for everyone.
> If the Camaro is a V6, then yeah for me personally, it's more a sports car than muscle car (emphasis on me personally). For me, an LT1 or SS is what I imagine when I think Camaro muscle car.
I've owned both in the last three years, boy howdy are you splitting hairs here.
Can any electric car really be defined as a muscle car, regardless of configuration and packaging? I still think of a muscle car as a big, two door American coupe with a loud V8 in RWD. I would throw pony cars into the same group (being basically the same but smaller), but it still comes down to a V8 in RWD. Over the years, people have talked a lot about specific engines in these cars and what kind of character they have, and that's something you completely lose with an electric drivetrain. I think that part plays a huge role in the definition of a muscle/pony car and removing it kind of takes away the spirit of the vehicle.
That's not to say these cars can't live on as EV's, but to me they lose that part of their identity.
Yes, IMO. A muscle car should look aggressive, have more power than the chassis needs, and feel muscular when behind the wheel. There’s just a feeling you get when driving a muscle car that puts a smile on your face with its sledgehammer approach to performance rather than being refined.
All performance EV's with aggressive styling would fit this definition then because all performance EV's produce crazy torque, aka, muscle.
I'd argue EV's can never be real muscle cars because the defining characteristic of a muscle car nowadays is the exhaust note. The handling of modern 'muscle cars' is no longer limited to a dragster and many "muscle cars" set great lap times on ring, or are used as drift missiles on the streets. Are there any current EV's that can do a typical muscle car burnout? This is a quintessential characteristics of a muscle car for decades. Now that modern cars are so good at everything, only the rumble and growl of a muscle car really distinguishes it from a general 'sports car', and since EV's produce no natural exhaust sounds I wouldn't consider any EV a muscle car.
There’s a feeling you get with muscle cars that you don’t get with sports or luxury cars. Get behind the wheel of a Hellcat Challenger vs a ZL1 Camaro or GT500 and you’ll know what I mean. It’s not a spec sheet thing, it’s a feeling.
That feeling could be recreated with an EV by not having TCS be perfect to allow wheel spin, ignoring torque vectoring so it behaves like a limited slip rear, and with a design that feels like a muscle car from outside and behind the wheel rather than being an aerodynamic jellybean. Nobody has tried that so far, but the formula is there.
could the feeling be recreated without pumping fake sounds through the speakers? Would you get that muscle car feeling in a completely silent cabin? There's no way that's possible as the sound a muscle car makes is unique and I'd argue the primary reason people purchase V8's over a turbo 4 or 6, which can give you all the inaudible feelings any other muscle car can. The factor that makes people love muscle cars is the sound they make over everything else.
You’re working backwards from a conclusion rather than being open minded. People complained about fuel injection when it was new, turbochargers, automatic transmissions, etc. Every innovation has had its naysayers that slowly fade away once the technology matures and people give up on their reflexive contrarianism.
I’ve watched plenty of movies where the audio from cars felt extremely real, even though it was coming from speakers. The scene in the first John Wick comes to mind, it punches you in the chest with a proper setup from start to finish. It’s all coming from speakers but from my couch I feel like I’m sitting in the passenger seat. Technology, when executed properly, can fool almost anybody.
Nobody has tried to purpose build an EV muscle car yet to capture that sensation, but I’m not going to sit here and say it’s impossible. We went from powered flight being a dream to landing on the moon in less than a century, there’s no telling what a focused effort on making an EV a drivers experience could be. It will never be the same as an ICE vehicle, but we have just scratched the surface of EVs with most models so far focusing on being futuristic and techy rather than appealing to car enthusiasts.
Plenty of people thought cars wouldn’t take over for horses either.
My understanding of muscle car was taking a mass production car and stuffing the biggest engine possible in it to give it comical amounts of straight line speed and acceleration. I think the modern EV sedans with 1,000hp fit that definition.
Tesla's interiors are crap and their suspension tuning is subpar. Their only winning attribute is straight line acceleration. That's very muscle car-esque.
Muscle cars never looked brutish, they just looked like every other car in the late 1960s. Ask someone with no knowledge of cars and every car from the late 60s looks equally brutish.
Fair points on the material quality. But there's just something missing from the tesla, maybe its the lack of sharp edges. Idk, like I feel old C63s and M5s fit it better than Tesla, and those can actually handle it.
Admittedly Im a BMW guy mainly, but Id argue that only Merc goes closest to muscle cars from the euro manifacturers.
Even beyond chassis tuning and dynamics BMW appears to try and to get away with as little displacement as possible while Merc is just "lmao 6.2" and "slap a clk front on the c-class otherwise we cannot physically fit this v8 motor"
EVs really have the classic spirit of a muscle car, go fast a hell in a straight line everything else be damned. Just without the aural fun of a lopey cammed V8 that’s just barely staying alive at idle, but these cars are all drag strip rockets.
I also love dodge’s branding of the I6 going into the ice models as the SIXPACK.
Lol, no EVs do not have the spirit of a muscle car. That is exactly what they lack. They can be very fast but don't have the power build up, the sound, the look or the feel. This charger looks very well done though so maybe....
Indeed it should! Already loving this more than the "mUsTaNg" Mach-E, that's for sure. (For fuck's sake, Ford, stop trying. ***You're not fooling anyone.***)
The retro thing is so weird…like muscle cars in the 70s were just…cars…but I seriously doubt you could call much of the mustang’s lifespan a muscle car as it clearly wasn’t retro in design.
But, I’m gonna be honest with you “max power in commuter car with zero care for handling” fits the Model S Plaid REALLY well.
It's just a term. It means nothing, it can be used by anyone to describe anything.
It originally meant '60-70s 2-door, affordable cars with the most powerful V8 available in that chassis.
Now, it means whatever you want.
I feel like a muscle car, from what people usually associate with the word, means fast, retro, and loud. Most EV's are fast and definitely check that mark, but they are too sleek and "refined" to be muscle cars and aren't styled to really even be considered sports cars by most people.
Dodge is trying to check those 3 boxes with the styling, EV power, and their fratzonic "exhaust" that actually makes sound. Will have to hear it in person to see if it sounds good or not. Definitely a weird, new concept
Ironically, if Stellantis' PR shots are anything to go by, this may be the second muscle car - after Ford's terrific S550/S650 Stang - to corner worth a damn.
It’s funny because even though the EV Daytona is supposed to be Dodge’s halo variant of the Charger, you 100% know that people end up making the 550HP inline six version way faster and ultimately the better car to have.
The simple fact that they are all AWD will destroy the sales of this car. The kind of person that buys these only cares about burnouts. No donuts, no sale.
That doesn’t seem like something Dodge would forgo:
> Donut Mode: Enables the vehicle to spin only the rear wheels and to rotate around either of the front wheels without intervention from the traction control system
Reveal video was a bit overproduced for my tastes, but otherwise, I approve! They look mean, sound fucking ***great,*** and it's great to see that the 4-door isn't going away. (A gas engine from the get go with standard AWD is also great to see.) Bit concerned about the price, though. If all this next generation tech can't be had for under $65K, has it really succeeded as a Dodge?
Dodge: Time travel! Muscle! Cancel culture! ***FUCK YOU!***
Also Dodge: *Refuses to mention any info about price, tax credits, launch date or int'l sales*
^(That said, the vid worked on me. So... pity the fools, lol?)
I wouldn't really call it stow and go. Lots of cars with hatch rear openings have fold-flat seats. THey don't fold into the floor like stow and go, they just fold down so they're flat with the floor of the rear cargo area.
Ah. Still great feature either way! Really helps bring some practicality back to the muscle car formula. Nice to see a frunk as well, even if it's tiny.
>The all-new Dodge Charger features standard all-wheel drive for all models
Funny enough this Charger will also come in 2-door and 4-dior variants like the Skyline did. Someone will absolutely slap a GT-R badge on one for the memes.
I know they said that but most of the release is about the 2 electric ones. I'd be surprised if AWD makes it to the NA ones. AWD on an NA car is more complicated and heavy.
NA, as in naturally aspirated? The Sixpack model is turbocharged.
And regarding AWD, [from Car and Driver:](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60082380/2025-dodge-charger-sixpack-revealed/)
>"The Charger Sixpack comes standard with all-wheel drive, but we're sure that Charger owners will still manage to find ways to perform ludicrous burnouts and donuts soon enough."
Other than the obvious connection between charger and electrification, not sure, unless they have future plans for the name we’re just not aware of yet. I’ll miss Challenger in the meantime.
...Nah. While I'm sure a Challenger CUV is gonna be a thing, it'll be a smaller one utilizing STLA Medium to split the difference between the ~~Tonale~~ Hornet and Charger. (Possibly with a Chrysler Sebring twin, to make it even more cursed.) If a 3-row crossover coupe is coming from Dodge, expect it to be a Durango variant before anything else.
Might be coming back for the second gen. People forget that both the Hellcat engine and Challenger body itself was not around for the 2006 Charger revival, and came several years later
Front end looks squished and not great. side profile looks incredibly plain. Curious how the higher trims look in person. Not that ill be buying one, i just figure theyre going to be everywhere as the current gen are so i wouldnt mind them being appealing lmao
As per the release, this is the debut of STLA Large, the "electric-first" platform planned to also underpin the Jeep Recon and Wagoneer S, a new Chrysler EV (Airflow?) and new Levante and Quattroporte models.
As an owner of a hemi V8 and theoretically the target market for the new “muscle” cars I can say that I will be skipping the EV versions. For the price they will be charging I could get a late model Challenger SRT or R/T shaker or scat.
I am glad they kept true to the models roots, however I have a hard time accepting the term “electric muscle car” muscle does with ICE. Similarly to the Taycan’s turbo trim. It’s not a turbo lol
So, there is no more Challenger, it's all called Charger.
However, it seems very attract many fun car buyers as its car features. Right now, you've record data like Gm one.
Hope Chrysler can go successful in Charger EV sales and write a new American sports car chapter.
I wonder if it'll be a smaller platform with the same/similar drivetrains, since the classic Challenger was always smaller than the classic Charger, and this new Charger is bigger than the outgoing one.
It’s not that this is necessarily a bad vehicle out of the gate but man Dodge put themselves in quite the corner marketing wise
They basically only marketed to people who viewed themselves are borderline Neanderthal. Those same customers aren’t going to be buying an EV. The brand itself has to pivot and pray they pickup some other types of customers otherwise dodge is staring directly into a void of nothingness sales wise.
> The Daytona variants weigh a good deal more than their internal combustion counterparts—about 5,835 pounds without a driver.
Before anyone starts crowing about the weight, that's about what you'd expect. Based on other shared ICE/EV cars like the 4 series, 7 series, and Maserati Granturismo I'd expect the EV to add about 1,000 pounds. I'd expect the new model to weigh a bit more because the platform has to support the extra weight of the EV. So add a couple hundred pounds and then about 1,000 for EV stuff and 5800 sounds about right.
Just watched the reveal video...was very cringe and over produced. I have to assume it wasn't the advertising company that came up with the original dodge brothers ads cause [those were genius.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4OpmiT24lw)
They made fun of teslas for being ugly and called them “Melted Jelly Beans” I see it. And now I can’t unsee it. And now I have a new insult in my arsenal.
So no more Challenger branding? That’s kinda sad to see it go.
A new Charger with the Hurricane I6 though gets me all sorts of excited that the old V8 never did.
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