AMA: Car and Driver Lightning Lap 2024. Ask away

Posted by A2KC@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 210 comments

Hi, I’m K.C. Colwell, executive editor of Car and Driver and one of the drivers at our annual Lightning Lap track test. Every year we put the hottest new performance cars through the ultimate test: lapping Virginia International Raceway’s 4.1-mile Grand Course, a track we consider the toughest in the U.S. It was a good year, and we'll have all the details in our March/April issue and on the website. This is the 17th Lightning Lap, and our all-time leaderboard is now 327 production cars deep. But this year we invited more than just production cars. Subaru Motorsports brought out Airslayer with legendary driver Scott Speed at the wheel. Built by Vermont SportsCar, Airslayer amounts to an uncorked rallycross car. It’s got a real Can-Am vibe. Porsche racer Patrick Long lapped a 911 GT3 RS on the Full Course to see how it compares with the current 911 race car. And somehow, we convinced Hendrick Motorsports to bring its Garage 56 NASCAR Camaro out and to agree to let us drive it. But not for time. IMSA veteran and G56 development driver Jordan Taylor did the lapping at speed. And before you ask, yes, it is every bit as awesome as it looked and sounded at Le Mans last June. We also answered the question, is two better than four? As in: car versus motorcycle. BMW factory rider Nate Kern brought a BMW M 1000RR out to VIR. He’s raced at VIR a bunch, but he’s never tackled Grand. The stories don’t go live until 2/22 at 9:00 AM ET, but once they are, you can find them at https://www.caranddriver.com. I’m joined by the other drivers from this year’s event: Dave Beard (u/nameonface), Tony Quiroga, Dan Edmunds (u/suspensiontuna), and Dave VanderWerp (u/dave2979), as well as Carlos Lago (u/clago), who put together all the videos from this year’s event. On 2/23 starting at 9:00 AM, we’ll be answering any questions you have about this year’s cars and laps, and Lightning Lap in general. AMA! Lap times from every Lightning Lap are here: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/lightning-lap-times-historical-data/.

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210 Comments

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dynapro@reddit

Thanks for doing this AMA, I've always enjoyed the lightning lap series. There seems to be fewer and fewer LL1 cars at lightning lap over time. Is this trend going to continue?

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nameonface@reddit

Sadly, it probably will. There just aren't many OEMs building small performance cars these days. But there's a few more on the horizon. The BRZ tS and the updated GTI. Even the Miata might get another shot.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

It's a total bummer. Slow car fast is loads of fun.

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danny_ish@reddit

It would probably be a huge ask to find a collector or museum, but it would be very interesting to see how todays ‘slow’ cars do vs a clean example on good tires/brakes/fluids of a ‘slow’ car from 10-20 years ago. Is the new BRZ that much quicker around track then say a mini cooper S from 2008? How about an NB speed miata? Etc. Thanks for what you do though! Always grateful for content that makes me feel like a 13 year old kid reading about exciting cars in magazines and watching top gear

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Fortunately we have been doing this for almost 20 years, so you can see it. There is a lot of performance in newer tires but a 2007 Mini Cooper S ran a 3:22.9 (track was a little narrower in a few key places back then). We never did a NB Miata. NC ran a 3:29.

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KingMario05@reddit

Agreed. Maybe track non-performance ones instead? Seem to remember a Camry hybrid doing a half-decent job of the course one year.

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Musabi@reddit

I didn’t understand that til I got a C7 Z06 and was t a good enough driver for it! “Downgraded” to a 992 Carrera T and it’s a lot more fun to drive! Not scared of dying haha.

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nucleartime@reddit

Which cars had the biggest differences (both positive and negative) in the laptimes that you thought they'd be capable of and the actual times they put down?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I can't think of one that was way off, but the biggest surprise for me was the Corvette E-ray.

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redditcoinbuyer@reddit

surprised because it was slower than expected?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I think I only did three laps in it. Maybe four. Its straight-line performance is impressive, I was legit surprised by how good it was.

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MisterFribble@reddit

So this is unrelated to the LL (which I love BTW), but with C&D's switch to 6 issues a year will that mean the magazines will be thicker like they used to be? I unsubscribed a year or so ago because there just wasn't enough content in each issue to justify it. I'd love to resubscribe again if the issues return to their former glory.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

The issues are bigger, more edit pages and physically larger (LxW), too.

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MisterFribble@reddit

Awesome! Love what you guys do and I'll probably resubscribe now.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

It's $15/year and it really does mean a lot to us. https://store.caranddriver.com/car-and-driver-magazine.html?source=cdb\_circulesredirect

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MisterFribble@reddit

I'll probably do it. Also I do think an LL Retro would be cool, with cars like the MR2 and Fox Bodies.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

We did a first-gen NSX a few years back. It's hard to find people willing to let us run old cars.

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wonderfulworld2024@reddit

KC. What’s your favourite production car that you’ve ever driven, on the road? Based on pure fun drivability

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

That is such a hard question to answer. What’s my budget? In various cost brackets: Mk7 GTI E90 328i E36 M3 Second-gen CTS-V CTS-V Blackwing 997 GT2 356 Super 90 (I did near Vmax on the autobahn and that was a unique experience) 5th-gen Camaro Z/28 AP1 S2000 Rolls-Royce Ghost 430 Scuderia McLaren 720S 918 One car for the rest of my life? 997 Carrera. Drove one my first day at C/D. It’s more than enough car for me.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

That Black Series from a few years ago. Viper ACR. A whole host of 911s are up there, too.

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Spencie61@reddit

What’s your read on 911 vs Boxster/Cayman, from a driving enjoyment perspective as the 4 seats affords the 911 a bit more perceived practicality?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

718s are 95% of the experience. Non GT 911s have really become more of a touring car than a pure sports car. I have a little kid, so a 911 works great for me. I have no hate for either. 718 GTS 4.0 is really hard to beat for the money.

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Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit

>E90 328i Not gonna lie, I always assumed these would be boring without the 335i's turbo(s) (and catastrophic aversion to reliability). What do they do well?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I gravitate to naturally aspirated engines and the ride-handling balance is so nice that I don't miss the extra power. Amazing steering and brake feel. Also, E90s are before all the mode crap in cars, so I like that I don't have to play calibration engineer.

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Spencie61@reddit

Balance, power delivery, quality of inputs

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_galaga_@reddit

Nice work on LL this year. The contrast of street and race cars was great. Watching Garage 56 at Le Mans last year was awesome so seeing it here was a great surprise. The lap on foot was also impressive. I suppose I need to pose a question so I’ll ask where the hell does the GT3 RS go from here? It sounds like the recipe has been just about perfected. More feel? More power? What’s left on the table for the ol’ 911 to improve on?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I have to imagine there is a GT2RS in the works with about 200-220 more horsepower.

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Spencie61@reddit

It could go properly mid engine, finally

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AlrightAlbatross@reddit

Have you considered running both the OEM tires and spec tires?

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Seeker80@reddit

Not much point. Choosing a 'control' tire just means running a bunch of cars out of their spec as designed by the manufacturer, and it might even make the cars a bit unpleasant to drive. It's a lot of money and effort, but really doesn't add anything to the data. Some cars will be better on the control tire, some will be worse. Don't need a test to discover that. 'We put this other tire on the car, and it wasn't as good. Wow.'

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ABathingSnape_@reddit

I can’t think of a single performance car that’ll perform worse by switching from a PS4S to something like a Cup 2R.

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Seeker80@reddit

>I can’t think of a single performance car that’ll perform worse by switching from a PS4S to something like a Cup 2R. The car will still not be optimized for that tire. More grip means subjecting the suspension to more forces than it was meant to have for ideal performance. If the manufacturer wanted more grip there, then they'd consider offering another option. Journalists who are used to the standard behavior of the car won't want to deal with potential unpredictability as well. They in these comparisons to quickly get a feel for a car and do a few hot laps with it. Throwing off the spec and having the drivers do these sorts of speeds turns into a safety issue as well. The control tire concept seems to get thrown around out of some sense of making the test fair. What it does is make the test unfair for the manufacturers who did their homework and made sure their product was ideal, within reason. Others may have slacked off in this respect, and their lack of effort is glossed over by having an improved tire. There wasn't a control tire used in comparisons between them, but this question came up when the R35 was new. It was running good laps, some better than a C6 Z06. Nissan had three different tires produced just for the R35 by Dunlop and Bridgestone. The difference in performance between the Bridgestone and Dunlops was even documented, with the edge going to the latter. The Z06 suffered, being on some off-the-shelf Goodyear F1 Supercar tires that belied their name. Folks had a hard time believing that both cars actually had run-flats, but it was a matter of Nissan putting the effort in. Chevrolet went back to the drawing board, and had Michelin develop a runflat variant of the Pilot Sport Cup. Wouldn't you know it, both the Z06 and ZR1 were considerably faster and managed to outpace a lot of other machinery. The runflats still aren't quite the ideal, but the compound change still yielded great dividends. The manufacturers need to put in the effort with tires, and it will pay off.

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ABathingSnape_@reddit

There is literally no danger going to a stickier tire. You really think a stickier tire is more unpredictable? Come on now. If savagegeese can do it, these big journos should be able to handle a sticky tire. Hell, if some rando amateur on his first track days can manage a stickier tire without killing himself, surely a professional can too. That’s a dumb excuse.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Danger, no. Reduced comfort and confidence, yes. Ferrari F12 on Mercedes-spec Cup2s was a mess. We're not trying to figure out what tire makes 20 cars go faster. It's a test of factory cars. And the Z06's Goodyears were not good tires. Very early run-flat tech that held too much heat. One thing about the GT-R tire that isn't mentioned: That Dunlop was a one-lap tire. Huge fall-off. If I remember correctly, it is actually a motorcycle compound. The car got delivered without the Dunlops. It was on the all-season option, so we published two times for it. You have to remember, most of the cars here come on UHP or racier tires. It would be a crap shoot to try and figure out what street tire will make it faster. We struggle enough trying to dial in tire pressures. But, since everyone is so concerned with the tires we did or didn't use, I'll humor everyone and run a car on non-OEM tires next year.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

A specific tire developed for a specific car will always perform better than an off-the-rack tire. Think of it like buying a suit. You get it tailored, right? That is what OEMs do with tires. The rears off a Viper will never work on a 911 because a 911 loads its rear tires differently (think engine location). And you can't just put the stickiest tire on a car and expect it to perform. When grip goes up, you have to match springs, bushings, brake pads, ABS, ESC, etc. Ferrari put an F12 on Cup2s one year and it was a mess. Too much tire and you could feel how mismatched the tires were to the rest of the car. I can still remember it. Pitch it into a corner and the tires would bite and start turning, then the body roll would catch up and jostle the whole thing. It was bizarre. Too much tire is a real thing. Putting tires on a car will, as you say, get you grip, but that's steady-state grip, like we do on the skidpad test. The transient behavior of the car will never be as nice. And if the car doesn't feel good underneath us, we're never going to get a good time.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

What he said. Too much money and time.

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inter_fectum@reddit

This, I would love to see the cars compared to equal tires. Is it due to cost, fitment, or time constraints that this isn't done?

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Dad_4m_2021@reddit

Please can you share your thoughts on the three questions below - 1. Why does every single car reviewer feels the need to harp about 3-row SUVs not being able to fit 6'2" people in the third row when there are already 6'+ people sitting in the two rows ahead of them? Like why is this used so religiously? And I've seen it used for every SUV, even the long-ass Buick Enclave, Yukon XL. It seems very superficial, and false. Unless you are only writing for families with excessively large people who also refuse to adjust for each other. 2. Why o why do all car reviews attempt to describe cars of every type on the metric of sporty dynamics? Why can't you as the biggest name in the industry modify your review system to something like reviewing family daily drivers only in comfort mode driving, without 3 paragraphs on how they don't feel the same as a M3 or Miata? You are a big big name, yet you still ape Jeremy Clarkson and his snobbishness at anything not luxury or supercar. 3. Your group added a 0-150mph time. When will you add a 90/100-0 braking time/distance, which is what most reckless drivers go at on regular highways in the left lane?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I'm just going through some of these unanswered questions... 1: I can't comment on what other car reviewers do or write about, but if you are in the market for a three-row vehicle, you probably want to know how usable the space is. Right? If 6'2" is the Mendoza line for third-row comfort, my guess is that writer is 6'2". My bar is whether or not I could do an hour in a third row and I need 5-inch lifters to qualify as 6'2". I don't think I have ever spent more than one sentence discussing the third-row legroom, unless if it was remarkable. I dunno. Since you seem to be reading lots of three-row reviews, do yourself a favor and just buy a minivan. The current Toyota Sienna is my pick. 2: There is a lot to unpack here. First off, we will never limit a review to one mode. That's just nonsense. M3s haven't felt great since about 2012 (FTR, I don't dislike modern M3s, but they are just about the bottom on my M3 hierarchy). Miatas have way too much body roll. We have to put cars in perspective. If the only car I have ever driven is a Mitsubishi Lancer, then a Mitsubishi Lancer is the best car. Some family sedans have elements of greatness. Again, I can't comment on what other writers are thinking, but I do not ape the hyperbolic Clarkson. And we test cars, so we tend to hit all the critical test metrics in a review. 3: I am not sure you have been reading C/D because we have done 150-mph acceleration for at least 20 years (longer for high-power stuff) and we began regularly testing 100-0-mph five years ago (before that it was reserved for high-performance comparison tests). Maybe longer; I don't know exactly when we added it. We don't do it on everything because multiple 100-mph stops are incredibly abusive for many cars and SUVs. Go/nogo on 100-mph stops is totally up to the tester (I've had brake failures while testing and it isn't fun), but if it can do 100-mph in the quarter, odds are we did it.

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Mimical@reddit

>Please can you share your thoughts on the three questions below - 1. Why does every single car reviewer feels the need to harp about 3-row SUVs not being able to fit 6'2" people in the third row when there are already 6'+ people sitting in the two rows ahead of them? Not related to 3 rows, but I saw on a YT short on the new 2024 Tacoma; three very clearly 6 foot plus dudes squeezed into the rear seats and then complained about not enough space. My friends, it's a mid sized truck not a fucking lounge. None of them would fit in **any** mid sized sedan, hatch, truck or CUV. If I wanted a people carrier I'd buy a van.

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Hulahulaman@reddit

What cars would you like to lap but couldn't book?

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nameonface@reddit

SF90 XX Stradale is at the top of my list. I think it has a legit shot at the production record. Mustang GTD will be great

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AdventurousDress576@reddit

Whenever Ferrari releases a 296 GTO, that car will be a missile.

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dave2979@reddit

Where to start....there are always a ton. Many times the answer is they weren't ready in time this year, but hopefully they'll be there next time around. Aston Martin Valkyrie Bentley Speed Six Bugatti Bolide Ferrari SP90 or 296 Lotus Emira Maserati MC20 McLarens Artura and 750S Mercedes C63 and AMG One Subaru BRZ tS Porsche Cayenne Turbo GT and Lamborghini Urus Performante to settle the SUV score

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Bentley Blower Can-Am racer

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GVIrish@reddit

I'd like to know too, I for sure thought we'd see the 750S and Artura this time. Hopefully the Emira, even if they haven't been released for sale yet.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

All of those are on the list. Came close to making a 750S work, but we were just a bit too early. It will be insane. It may be the first 180-mph car at LL. It'll be darn close if it isn't. 765LT did 175 mph and it was loose.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Ferrari 296 McLaren F1 BMW E34 M5 Lamborghini Sterrato (so I can straigt-line the esses) Acura NSX Type S Timing is always tricky.

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GoldenState15@reddit

Was it surprising to see the new m2 be slower than the new nismo z? What other lap times have surprised you in the past

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leesfer@reddit

Why would that be surprising? The Nismo is more expensive than the M2.

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RaulNorry@reddit

I know they aren't the most exciting cars, but I'd really like to see more LL1 options tested. Things like the Kia Forte GT, Civic non-Si, base model Mustangs or Camaros, etc. Cars are all getting ridiculously expensive, it'd be nice to see models that normal people can actually afford and how they compare.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I'm with you. Unfortunately, for so many of those cars you mention, they won't last for a whole lap at VIR. A base Kia Forte GT has over 200 horsepower and can get going a pretty good clip at VIR. Its brakes aren't designed for repeated deceleration events from triple-digit speed. Low dust, low noise pads crumble. Camaro is out of production and Ford didn't want to send two Mustangs. Convincing OEMs to let us lap a non track car is understandably a big ask (expensive as brakes, tires, wheels often need a complete replacement). I really want to lap an pickup. Not a mega-power thing. Just a reg-cab work truck. Timing is a problem, too, though we should have updated Miata, BRZ tS, and GR86 Performance next year.

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zerglurker30@reddit

That is completely reasonable and fair. But perhaps all of these base cars can have at *minimum* **brake fluid and brake pad changes**. Maybe even just a standard tire throughout the lineup (long shot... sounds like a logistical nightmare, as no one tire or company provides the same tire sizes) No one expects to even lap these cars at a track without these absolute minimum brake modifications prior to tracking But yes, getting OEMs to agree and comply and to set this up is truly a tall ask. Appreciate all that you guys do, however. Thank you for the cool content

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Part of me wants to say, "pads, fluids, and rotors are fair game." But then OEMs would game that and someone would complain. But I also like that it's a test of a car coming off the line. Maybe it's worth investigating if I can even get performance pads for a Forte GT.

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baom2023bd@reddit

Porterfield AP1855, they offer three compounds R4-S, R4-1 and R4-E. I would say you are 100% correct about the Forte GT brakes lasting maybe one lap. They do not like hard braking from over 80mph. Maybe if there was a "The Bargain Cup - Lightning Lap there could be chicanes for lower top speeds. Just a thought.

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zerglurker30@reddit

Oh yeah. Rotors i would see the hesitation from them. But fluid and pads? Those are bare minimum essentials for a track. Perhaps having something like this **specifically** for these lesser inexpensive models would be an interesting idea. Since its a lower playing field perhaps there would be less hesitation from companies? They don't have to worry about their base model Mustang (no bias here) not looking great against top track designated trim vehicles. The birth of 'The Bargain Cup - Lightning Lap' hahaha. I would tune in for sure. Appreciate your response! Cheers

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memymomeddit@reddit

The thing that stuck out to me this year is that the X5M was only 1.2s behind the M2. Was that a surprise for you guys as well?

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Promit@reddit

I really enjoyed how the latest LL showed that “race cars for the road” are no match for actual race cars. I really hope to see full video of the Garage 56 and Airslayer laps, and to see more LLPRO times in the future!

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essequattro@reddit

What do you consider an “actual race car”? I think that’s a severe over generalization lol.

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Edenwing@reddit

Cars that are not road legal / geared towards track performance

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danny_ish@reddit

When it would take more than a handful of weekends for the average family to make it road legal and able to obtain a cpo/warranty again

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essequattro@reddit

Do you consider an MX5 cup car to be a real race car? It’s very similar to the road car but can’t be titled.

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essequattro@reddit

I’m not sure what that means. A factory race car does not have a VIN.

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clago@reddit

Not only do we have hot laps of the G56 and Airslayer, we also had Jordan Taylor and Scott Speed provide commentary of their hot laps. Airslayer hot lap: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46594964/subaru-airslayer-lightning-lap-2024/ Scott Speed interview: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46881162/scott-speed-subaru-airslayer-lightning-lap-video/ G56 hot lap: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46594920/garage-56-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-lightning-lap-2024/ Jordan Taylor interview: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46881224/jordan-taylor-garage-56-camaro-lightning-lap-video/

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Racer20@reddit

Hey KC! I met you ~18yrs ago at LW’s house working on his Evo race car. My life’s biggest regret is not taking the opportunity I had to join your staff, but I can’t complain about where I ended up so it’s all good . . . Glad to see you’re doing well there. I was a loyal print subscriber until 2021, when I downsized and moved out west, still miss flipping through the magazine every month.

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essequattro@reddit

Do you consider an MX5 cup car to be a real race car? It’s very similar to the road car and definitely slower than a GT3 RS but can’t be titled.

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Professional_Pop_469@reddit

Thank you for such an enjoyable video/article. Question on the G56 car. Since it was the sister car to the original, did it have any of the tweaks that the original had? Such as a smaller spoiler, possibly higher rev limiter, etc? Did they tweak the car for this track, such as changing the gears, etc? I'm disappointed it got 2nd place, but was wondering how close to full potential it had.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

It’s identical to the car that raced around LeMans. In one sense this is the original, as it was used for development. I think Scott and Jordan could have traded laps for days. The cars were shockingly close.

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Professional_Pop_469@reddit

Thanks for the reply! I did notice that the spoiler was awfully tall in this car, and the Le Mans one had cut the spoiler down because the GTEs had more straightaway speeds, with the spoiler being so large with drag. I could have sworn they also raised the rev limiter, but could be mistaken. In any case, it sounds like it ended with the lap times 1 second apart, due to time, and they could've just kept upping each other. Very cool! Last question is, Jordan seemed to think the Subaru got bigger turbos for this event. Is this true?

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lowstrife@reddit

Maybe I missed it somewhere in the publication, but has there been discussion on an attempt to normalize the tires? This can create a huge variation in lap times, but is logistically complicated, expensive and not always even possible (a tire may not be available in a variety of sizes which fits all cars). What are some of the pro's and con's you guys have discussed about, if I'm allowed to project here, it's not worth doing? The reason this comes up is from the big surprising upset: 2024 Nissan Z Nismo, 2:56.2 2023 BMW M2, 2:56.9 Which can largely be attributed to the Nissan coming with race slicks and the BMW coming with bicycle tires (ok maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit)

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dave2979@reddit

We get this question all the time, but there's really no way to do it. Automakers tune the tire to the car and would (rightly) view us swapping out tires for one of our choosing to be on par with bolting on a giant aftermarket wing or some other mod. It will alter the way the car drives from how they set it up and they would thus not be willing send cars to Lightning Lap. What if a car has smaller brakes than one of its natural competitors? Should we install aftermarket ones to make it "equal"? It pretty much comes down to do we run them stock or modified, and modified turns into a spiraling rabbit hole

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birdseye-maple@reddit

This makes a lot of sense, but it would be cool if there were some cases (maybe as a test/companion article) where on the same car that came with race-type tires you also ran some laps with PS4Ss. I think a lot of people would enjoy it to see the difference, even if it was only a few cars.

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Spaghetto23@reddit

I think it all boils down to: "if it comes from factory it comes from factory" \*shrug\*

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Yup (no shrug), it's a test of the car and every car is engineered on a specific tire. What is good for one—a jump from UHP to R comp—might not be good for another. And most of these cars have bespoke compounds and constructions for their tires that are specific to the needs of that car. A Lucid-spec tire will never work on a BRZ and there is nothing out there that could make a 911 GT3 RS feel right except for a tire developed for it. Also, I don't think manufacturers would give us cars if we told them we were putting everything on one tire. Maybe we get a few cars and prove this point next year...

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MisterFribble@reddit

That's what a lot of people don't understand. Manufacturers put a ton of time into designing the tire to fit the car. Changing it could cause huge effects to the way it drives.

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cpxchewy@reddit

The Dunlop SP Sport Maxx GT600 on the Nismo Z should be comparable to MP4S (maybe a bit better), but they're not 200tw Cup2 equivalent tires. Dunlop SPORT MAXX Race 2 are the Cup2 equivalent in performance. They are marked as 80tw though. Porsche uses Race 2 and Michelin Cup2 interchangeably in the 718 GT4, 991.1 GT3RS and 991.2 GT3 when selling the cars.

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Bottlely@reddit

Regarding tires, they've actually discussed it a few times, Carlos Lago even talked about it in a video collab with Savagegeese https://youtu.be/9zm8qW3nHEA?t=125

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nightmare88@reddit

If you could have any of the cars C&D has lightning lapped over the years, for free but you could never sell it, which would you choose?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

997 GT3 RS. It’s a good size and I like manuals. There’s lots that is up there, but I love a GT3 because it can be driven every day and I will still be able to get in and out if it when I’m 80. A 991 GT3 manual is high up there for all the same reasons, plus CarPlay, but we never lapped one. Just a great car.

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KingMario05@reddit

Hey, guys, thanks for doing this! Always fun reading your results either in print or online. So: Garage 56. ***Awesome*** that you managed to get Rick Hendrick to send you one! Think you'll race more race cars in the future? It'd be *amazing* to see a NASCAR and Indy Chevy go head-to-head, though I understand how difficult that would be to accomplish.

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Eguot@reddit

Good Afternoon guys! Considering where the Dark Horse landed, compared to the Mach 1 of the previous generation do you think the that S650 still has a lot of untapped potential out of the box? For a personal vehicle if you were to cross shop both of them what would you end up with and why? In relation to the KIA EV6 GT, and the movement towards EV, now seeing them more in a performance sector with Hyundai leading the charge with the coming Ioniq 5N, are you excited to see what other manufactures will start offering to compete, if at all? On a side note, I know some of you would consider yourself "professional drivers" but being a mid 20 year old, with quite some track experience under my belt, I get hounded by instructors, racers, family, friends, etc alike to get into racing from a professional and competitive standpoint. After months of research, it doesn't even seem feasible, as being good doesn't mean much if you don't have some serious sponsorships or deep pocket's(usually family). With that said, and everyone involved with Lightning Laps being some seasoned automotive journalists, does anything exist in the automotive world that is still open to being a possibility in regards to racing?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I am sure there is a lot of potential in the S650. Ford will roll out many variants over the coming years. But it will not have a lot of competition, so I am not sure there is the pressure to spend the money to make it better/faster/quicker. I would go with a Mach 1 or a PPL2 of the previous gen, only because I can not stand all the screens at night. But that's a me thing. I am excited for the Ioniq 5 N, but lapping electrics is a PITA. You get one or 2 laps and the powertrain falls off. Then you have to wait hours. And the tracks do not love having EVs lapping. EMS has a completely different protocol. The HiPo EVs really need a go/no-go light like the electrified race cars to let EMS and wreckers know it is OK to touch. We're not pros. We're good amateurs who also write, some of us have big experience (Rich Ceppos raced at Daytona), but pro drivers are pro drivers: that is what they do for a living. And you are right. Money talks in racing. There are many natural talents who don't get a shot because they don't have money or sponsors. You can still have a lot of fun in club racing knowing that, for example, a 4th place may be the best you can do because you aren't going to pay for a blueprinted engine. Good luck if you pursue it. Or, dedicate your studies to investment banking and then bankroll a WEC team. Le Man is just one big check away.

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Eguot@reddit

Totally understand the screen issue in the s650. Even in my car, I drive with the screens off most of the time, especially at night. The go/ no-go light is definitely a huge thing that I imagine would be implemented. I was an automotive tech for a few years, and we weren't even allowed to have the dealer sale better yet service certain vehicles because the fire department wasn't able to handle EV incidents. >We're not pros Don't down talk your selfs! You have the understanding of driving different cars on the track, probably better than some HPDE drivers. You may not be pro from a standpoint of competition, but nonetheless. That is pretty much where I stand. Racing is a hell of a drug and a blast. Hell, ever since I started I drive like a grandpa in public. It may be best not to be involved because it is fun. Once you start getting paid to do it, the fun aspect goes away, as a tech that lasted 5 years...

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Material-Profile7155@reddit

Why do people like VIR?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

It's long, has very fast corners, and some slow corners. Lots of elevation change. Cool history. Hotels and restaurants on site. It is not super convenient to get to, but it is worth it. We're hosting a track day there in May. Come out if you can. No track experience required. [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46903626/lightning-lap-track-day-may-8-2024/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46903626/lightning-lap-track-day-may-8-2024/)

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Material-Profile7155@reddit

I'm definitely going to look into that and keep it in mind

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

A few of us will be down there giving rides and doing some lead-follow work. Hope to see you there.

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Material-Profile7155@reddit

Good stuff. I really hope I can make that work. You guys have the coolest job

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Motleyfool777@reddit

It's truly a wonderful track. Plenty of challenge to drive. Lots of elevation changes. A gorgeous facility.

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wonderfulworld2024@reddit

Hey, K.C. North America has given rally racing a significant push over the last decade and the sport still hasn’t grown worldwide. Do you think that rallying can ever become a larger motorsport again, or has it seen its best times, despite other motorsports continuing to grow?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I think rally is a tough sell for the privateer. The margin for error is so small that I have to imagine that is a deterrent for many to take up the sport. And it is tough commercially as it is way better to watch on TV. It's fun as hell, though, and I know events have cult followings. It's tough to say if it will ever grow in popularity. I hope it does. It will be interesting to see if the Tennessee ARA event can make the jump to WRC (that's their hope, right?). Having hung out with Scandinavian rally drivers, a Drive To Survive style show on rally drivers would kill it, ratings wise. And if you can get TV money, then it goes bananas.

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wonderfulworld2024@reddit

KC. What’s your favourite production car that you’ve ever driven, on the road? Based on pure fun drivability

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wonderfulworld2024@reddit

Thank you for the reply. I hope that you have a great day and night

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CSparrow77@reddit

Hey, cool AMA! I have 2 burning questions 😊 Would you consider hiring a Pro/Semi-pro driver for future lighting laps because I dont think it was the same driver for the C8 Z06 and the Porsche 992 GT3RS? Because he had some big mistakes with the C8, in T3/4 he went way to wide on entry and exit and missed 3 apexs after the back straight. Id guess there is certainly 5-8 tenths in that lap and it felt like it was one of his earlier laps with the car whereas the 992 GT3RSs lap seems pretty maximised and on the limit. (Also Im guessing the Porschefactory driver had some tips while with the Z06 no factory driver was present?) Would you ever consider including track conditions in future lighting lap editions? A Track & Air Temperatur reading and maybe even a "rubbered in" grading, latter is just an idea not really necessary...

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I drove both. Not sure I am seeing three missed apexes after the back straight, but after a few thousand laps at VIR they corners blend together, I suppose. T3 was a little wide, I didn't hit curb, but my minimum speed was only 1 mph slower than in the GT3 RS. T4 is a throwaway corner and that's where the grip was that year. That line was faster on that day and driven on at the request of a Z06 ride and handling engineer. I don't remember exactly, but I think he said they ran a 2:37, same as C7 ZR1 roughly. And that's from the guys who spent years developing the car and know it better than anyone on the planet. Not to mention they have a real seat and a harness. The 38.6 in the Z06 was a good lap, 0.9 faster than we (not me) ran the C7 ZR1. And there isn't much we can do about track conditions. Even grading them by year is hard. But that said, grip felt down this year. We've had a few events that have followed big race weekends and those were always nice because getting up to speed is quicker.

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CSparrow77@reddit

Fair enough also nice body transformation btw good on ya! how many laps did you do in the 992 and how many in the Z06 before you set a lap? And one more question I have would be how fast were the temps rising in the porsche? What I will write in the following is in no means an attack on your driving skills at all so please dont take it as such, its a good lap and you are cartainly way faster than 99% of all track drivers ;) and ofc I know its pointless to argue about a lap thats already in the books and I know you also know where you wouldve gone faster but since we are on an internet forum with no hard feelings involved I figure why not... sorry T3 was mainly fine I was talking about T4 where with the GT3RS your were taking the "correct" or what I expected the line to be in that corner but with Z06 it seemed, even if suggested by the engineer, that you visibly lost some minimum speed with the "hook" line you drove (). The next critique on that lap would be entry & midcorner to T11/12 onto the back straight. I know it was faster than it looked and you didnt actually didnt loose too much time there but the slip angle seemed a bit time robbing. The three missed apexes i meant were T15 a, where u took a much smoother line with the 992, thus setting you up for a much faster T15 sequence as a result in the porsche. The apex on T17a wasnt reaally missed but you did hit it more aggresviely with the 992. T18b the apex you did miss which resulted in the car being too far over to the right in a not as fast setup for the next right hander... Like you said it makes sense that Chevy themselves ran a 37 so you guys were not too far off 👍 I just seemed to me when comparing the laps side by side the lap of the corvette was 97% of what it can do while the Porsches was more like 99% and im saying this as a german haha but ofc as always a comparison without variables and tiny mistakes is near impossible. Similar thing with the regular C8 stingray i think that lap couldve been maybe a second faster too or would disagree completly? Were you suprised with the C8s handling compared to vatious porsches? The limiting factor on that lap was more the Ps4s compared to Cup2s but thats the tyres it comes on sooo.... Regarding the conditions yes that makes sense, i just think includimg the air and track temp on the lap day wpuld be interesting to have a bit more of a fair comparison overall even if it doesnt tell the whole story...

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zorrax5@reddit

Fair enough also nice body transformation btw good on ya! how many laps did you do in the 992 and how many in the Z06 before you set a lap? And one more question I have would be how fast were the temps rising in the porsche? What I will write in the following is in no means an attack on your driving skills at all so please dont take it as such, its a good lap and you are cartainly way faster than 99% of all track drivers ;) and ofc I know its pointless to argue about a lap thats already in the books and I know you also know where you wouldve gone faster but since we are on an internet forum with no hard feelings involved I figure why not... sorry T3 was mainly fine I was talking about T4 where with the GT3RS your were taking the "correct" or what I expected the line to be in that corner but with Z06 it seemed, even if suggested by the engineer, that you visibly lost some minimum speed with the "hook" line you drove (). The next critique on that lap would be entry & midcorner to T11/12 onto the back straight. I know it was faster than it looked and you didnt actually didnt loose too much time there but the slip angle seemed a bit time robbing. The three missed apexes i meant were T15 a, where u took a much smoother line with the 992, thus setting you up for a much faster T15 sequence as a result in the porsche. The apex on T17a wasnt reaally missed but you did hit it more aggresviely with the 992. T18b the apex you did miss which resulted in the car being too far over to the right in a not as fast setup for the next right hander... Like you said it makes sense that Chevy themselves ran a 37 so you guys were not too far off 👍 I just seemed to me when comparing the laps side by side the lap of the corvette was 97% of what it can do while the Porsches was more like 99% and im saying this as a german haha but ofc as always a comparison without variables and tiny mistakes is near impossible. Similar thing with the regular C8 stingray i think that lap couldve been maybe a second faster too or would disagree completly? Were you suprised with the C8s handling compared to vatious porsches? The limiting factor on that lap was more the Ps4s compared to Cup2s but thats the tyres it comes on sooo.... Regarding the conditions yes that makes sense, i just think includimg the air and track temp on the lap day wpuld be interesting to have a bit more of a fair comparison overall even if it doesnt tell the whole story...

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M-Garylicious-Scott@reddit

I have a golf gti mk8 for my daily. I traded my 22 BRZ for it to have an easier commute after several 12-16 hours shifts. Im going to track it for the short term, but am looking to buy a more dedicated track car in a few years. Would a Porsche Cayman or Toyota Supra be a better track car? Or maybe something I haven’t thought of? It would be a weekender/track car

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

What are you gonna spend? Gimme a budget and we'll do a Window Shop episode on it. I'll be over budget and Pearley will pick a Tacoma, but it'll be fun.

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M-Garylicious-Scott@reddit

Ballpark of $60-70k. I’m not opposed to buying used either

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nameonface@reddit

As Carlos will confirm, the answer is always Camaro SS 1LE

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clago@reddit

it ain't wrong

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dragonitexy@reddit

How do the fastest production cars around VIR compare to GT3/4 race cars?

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Nukedogger86@reddit

I second this. Would be an interesting comparison.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Patrick Long ran the 911 GT3 RS on the Full Course to compare it to GT3 R (or whatever the 911 GT3 car is these days) and the 3 RS would have been on pole for a GT4 race. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46626032/2023-porsche-gt3-rs-patrick-long-lightning-lap-2024/

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Nukedogger86@reddit

Thanks!!!

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spriggan4@reddit

Have you ever tried getting something like a forte gt manual for VIR?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

not specifically, but since you are the third or fourth person to ask, I think we will have to have one next year.

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wonderfulworld2024@reddit

Thanks for doing this AMA. Keep up the awesome work.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Thank you for reading! Please continue to do so.

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Lawineer@reddit

How close are the drivers in the same cars? Do you drive them with stability control on(or reduced in track modes)?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

We're pretty close and often check each other's laps to make sure we aren't missing anything. Stability control is usually off, but some you can't turn all the way off and systems such as GM's PTM are so good you're better leaving it on (but just barely).

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SithSidious@reddit

Thanks for doing this AMA. Read the lightning lap and really enjoyed it. I also want to say how infinitely grateful I am that car and driver doesn’t limit my number of articles per month - I used to go on road and track religiously but since they changed it and I can only read 3 articles a month I never go there. Now I go to C&D everyday to see if there’s anything new. I understand that lightning lap is about performance and lap times, but i feel like in today’s age with the performance ceiling of cars being so high, lap times and numbers matter less and less. What I really hope to see when I read articles or watch videos about cars is not the spec sheet, but rather the experience and how enjoyable the cars are to drive spiritedly. How is the steering, sound, etc. does the car vibrate or buzz and feel connected or is it isolated. How do you guys decide how much to write about the subjective experience vs objective data? (such as talking about speed at a particular corner etc, grip level, power levels, etc). Is the answer basically that I should look out for PCOTY and lightning lap isn’t for me?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I can't comment on what Road & Track does, though in your own words, "Read the lightning lap and really enjoyed it." So keep enjoying it? I like to think we blend the two, but LL is a track test and what is does is just as important as how it does it. Lucid is a scary thing, that doesn't mean it wasn't wanted. Going 170 mph toward a 180-degree corner in something that heavy makes for unnatural feelings. The last NISMO had a brake failure on the front straight, so also scary. Both cars acquitted themselves.

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coffeeshopslut@reddit

Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions, C&D staff What was the sketchiest car you guys have had at lightning lap? (Discounting the nismo 370z incident) How about a bicycle, at some point? How did you guys get good at tracking cars?

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dave2979@reddit

It's all relative, and certainly nothing as bad as the brake failure that happened to me in the 370Z, but EV6 GT has a shocking amount of turn-in oversteer that makes it a handful on a track. It sent me into the grass through the uphill esses on my first sighting lap at what was maybe 6-7/10ths

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Big_Wish_7928@reddit

Hi Dave I have a buddy who is a bro scientist and for the life of him he cant believe GM has products beating out Porsche in the top 10. As someone whose spent extensive time in both can you disprove his claim that American cars are only meant to go in a straight line.

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A_1337_Canadian@reddit

Was it hard to reconcile spinning like that on a track and remembering you're in an electric Kia hatchback?

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nameonface@reddit

I really didn't feel comfortable in the X4M. The tires got air off curbs when they shouldn't have. I always though it was going to tip over. I grew up racing motocross. Now my free time in the winter is occupied by riding stupid quick snowmobiles through the tight and twisty trails in Northern Michigan. It's all about keeping the inner ear fine tuned.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

The first Tesla Model S we lapped was a mess. Its brake pedal when to the floor on my first lap on the front straight. I think I was doing close to 140 mph. That's a terrifying feeling. We had a BMW 335is one year that was way out of alignment and it was a lift-throttle oversteer machine. I think Dave VanderWerp had a few code brown moments in the Kia EV6 GT this year. BMX bike? Racing school, testing cars (skidpad is great practice for finding and holding the cornering limit), and experience (many media events have a track component).

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Motleyfool777@reddit

I've been to VIR often for HPDEs and other race events. A few things I love about Lightning Lap 1. It happens at VIR 2. The historical record of lap times for a diverse array of cars You guys are doing a great job. Please keep at it. I've used this data so many times to get a feel for the next car I'd like to purchase. My question, what keeps manufacturers away from LL? I'm sure some don't show up being afraid of being bested. <cough> Ferrari <cough> Is there another reason besides scheduling that would keep a manufacturer away? Also, what's the scariest part of lapping such fast and powerful cars at VIR? The Esses at 150+?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I think the cost of the event is the first and biggest filter. Lightning Lap is an expensive event. Shipping a car, and tires, and support (if they want) adds up. Plus, it doesn't help that we do this mid-week during F1's season. All the press/media cars get shipped to Texas so VIPS can drive them. Yeah, entering the Esses at a good clip is spicy when you don't have a cage or harness. I've had a tank slapper going up and I've gone off in the Esses. But turn 10—blind, off-camber, left after the Esses—is full pucker. If you go wide on the exit it is a long ride down a grassy hill or you come around on driver's left and the ruts left by other offs tear suspension off. It was this corner exit where the LMP3 car flipped and landed tires down. I think the team went on to win the race.

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Motleyfool777@reddit

I would do whatever to be a VIP in Austin if they let me drive the Garage 56 car around town. I'm not sure how'd I'd warm the brakes between stoplights however.... Hats off to you for entering the Esses at 100+ and more than that. Turn 10 is a nightmare fo' sho. I've been told "Go right young man. Go right. To the left is madness." Your story proves it. I hadn't heard of the LMP3 car. That's a Mad Lad to get back in and drive after that.

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tech240guy@reddit

How many laps do you guys do per car? Like 1 warm-up lap then a hot lap? Or do you do mulitple hot laps per car to get the fastest time possible? I saw the video on the 2023 Honda Civic SI and my first thought was "holy cow, that first corner lost a lot of momentum for the rest of the course". That 2nd-3rd gear speed limits really sucks there as I ran into similar issues in Auto-X on larger SCCA nationals size courses.

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dave2979@reddit

For everything except the most track-oriented cars, it's generally an out lap, hot lap, cool down, come into the pits and check/adjust tire pressures, followed by another out lap and hot lap. Running multiple hot laps in a row usually just overheats tires, brakes, etc. and times get slower. But we do that sequence above a minimum of 2-3+ times per day for each of the cars we're driving until we feel like we've gotten the most out of it that we can

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minemaster11@reddit

How different is this process of optimizing lap times for LL than you would drive your average track day session in your own car? I’d guess you’d start at a lower cold tire pressure for a track day, and drive more laps in a session without coming in. Is that right?

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Racepace@reddit

Is that enough to properly push a car to its limits though?

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dave2979@reddit

Absolutely. Our times are regularly in the hunt with the automaker's development drivers. In the CT5-V Blackwing, u/A2KC went quicker than GM's very talented development shoe and this year I went a couple tenths quicker in the Sapphire than Lucid's development driver

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nameonface@reddit

Like dave2979 said, it depends on the car. I might do a 10/10s lap, 8/10s, 10/10s and repeat just to see how the car reacts. The Dark Horse's transmission gets roasty and the Nissan Z NIMSOs rear differential gets extra toasty.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

We lap for a couple days and then set times in the morning of the third day. Total laps per car is probably close to 50. If it's a car that we're feeling good in, it'll be fewer laps and one that we're struggling with will get more.

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markeydarkey2@reddit

Seeing how well the Air Sapphire did, have you folks thought about doing a comparison test of it vs a Taycan Turbo S and Model S Plaid (with track pack)?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Yup. The availability of a track pack Model S is the hurdle. It'll happen, eventually.

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markeydarkey2@reddit

Hell yeah! I can't wait (this is a lie, I can wait). It's really the Taycan Turbo S vs Air Sapphire duel I want to see, but it'd be a lacking comparison without a Model S Plaid.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I know. We go around on whether to do this without a Model S or not, but Tesla fans are so vocal that we have to include it. Fortunately we have a line on one.

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Bubbafett33@reddit

Lightning Lap is a great yardstick for all-out performance, but few mortals can afford a track-only car. If you were allowed to use any of the LL cars you’ve driven for free for a year—under the condition that you HAD to use it as your daily driver exclusively and pay for gas/insurance out of your own pocket—which would you choose?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

911 GT3. But, I like driving a manual, and none of the LL cars have been manuals...CT5-V BW or a Cayman GTS 4.0 (we've never lapped a 4.0, but I still love it).

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End3rW1gg1n@reddit

Although y'all did mention when a specific tire was used, a metric I kinda wish was included in results is tire wear/cost/performance. Because it might not be worth the $2500/set, times 5 sets of tires to reduce lap times by a few percentage points over 15-20 hot laps. Were there any participants who went through an egregious number of tires?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

The only reason we go through multiple sets is because the peak performance is in the first lap or two and rarely is it a second set on the last day. That's only when OEMs are asking us to chase tenths. OK, sometimes it is us, but I don't think we went through a crazy number of tires this year. Heavy cars are hardest on tires. Oh, the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio devoured its Pirelli Corsas. If you go back and find the video, you can see chunks coming off it. October 2017 issue. Video should be on YouTube.

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DaddyP924@reddit

What would you say is the most enjoyable four-door you've driven in the lightning lap?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

CT5-V Blackwing and the second-gen CTS-V are tops for me, though I really want to lap an E34 M5.

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caterham09@reddit

You have just reinforced my need to make a poor financial decision in the Ct5v blackwing.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

You will not regret. It's a bit loose on track. I would argue that a CT4-V BW is better on track, but I have a weird fascination with large sedans that have manual transmissions. S/C V-8 is a draw, too.

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caterham09@reddit

I might regret it when my wife finds out

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Shmokesshweed@reddit

How spacious is the doghouse in the yard? Or do you think she'll let you crash on the couch?

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caterham09@reddit

Might have to sleep in the blackwing.

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MisterFribble@reddit

There are definitely worse places to sleep

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Unlucky-Carpenter-69@reddit

I present to you a new category: LLR — Lightning Lap Retro.

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Motleyfool777@reddit

I'd love to see this. Cammisa's drag race of an ND2 Miata vs an E500 Mercedes was gold. It really shows how new stacks vs old.

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nameonface@reddit

Panamera Turbo S was great. Also, for what it is, the Genesis G70 was pretty enjoyable. There's just something special about lapping with the ventilated seats on full blast.

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humdizzle@reddit

why does koenigsegg never give you guys cars to do instrumented tests on?? seems like ferrari, pagani, and bugatti have no issues.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Back when Koenigsegg was still using Porsche transaxles we tried a few times, but there were mechanical failures (if I am remembering correctly). We've asked a few times since, but it's never come together. Do you have one you're willing to let us borrow?

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humdizzle@reddit

Ha I wish.

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DatFink@reddit

I’ve got some family living in The Villages who want to know when we’re bringing LSVs to VIR for a “Leisurely Lap”? They’re struggling to talk smack about their neighbors’ golf carts and NEVs w/o track data to back it up.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

We lapped a golf cart at LL4 or 5. The lap time in arithmetic based on the cart VMAX.

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pm-me-racecars@reddit

Is Jack Fitzgerald faster in or out of a golf cart?

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nameonface@reddit

The lap timer ran out of battery before the golf cart lap was finished. Or maybe the cooler was emptied.

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Manafont-@reddit

How did the Manthey compare to the GT3RS? Assume it’s probably more attainable, but for more money than the RS it seems less hardcore.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

They are similar for sure. I think the Manthey has a little more mechanical grip, mainly because it has a more aggressive alignment, but the 3RS's aero grip is undeniable. And I think the turn-in on the Manthey is better. I know the steering rack is unchanged, but it felt so much more reactive than a regular GT3. It's a cool mod to the car and I bet you will see more RSs than you ever will Mantheys.

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Own-Neighborhood6828@reddit

Did you guys not bring the ct4/Ct5 v Bw out again? I've loved those cars and they've gotten rave reviews but seem to be consistently dropped from comparison tests, which is odd with how well they perform.

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clago@reddit

See LL 2022: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38955362/lightning-lap-2022/

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FALCON_ACCOUNT@reddit

Always enjoy reading the Lightning Laps and 10 Best. Leaving the lap times aside, what would you say the most fun cars to flog around the track were?

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nameonface@reddit

I really enjoyed the Mach 1. That was a car that was consistent lap after lap. The Dark Horse would be on the same page if it had the manual. I second the BRZ. The things that aren't scary fast and light enough to where the tires last all day long are always fun.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

The most fun cars are the ones you can lap continually without fear of the brakes disappearing. The GT3 with the Manthey kit is awesome. Beyond that, BRZ pegs the fun meter. One of my personal all-time favorites is the 5th-gen Camaro Z/28.

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caterham09@reddit

Do you think that the Z/28 was more enjoyable to lap than the C6 z06?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

They were almost 10 years apart so it is hard to say. Both special, but I like a manual trans if I am out there for enjoyment. C6 Z06, yes, for sure. I read C8. C6 Z06 was a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde for me. It got way better when it finally got Michelin tires, but I drove one that was squirrelly and another that was awesome and planted. Either way, an LS7 on track is amazing.

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lvalleli@reddit

Have you considered giving any older cars a similar treatment to the BRZ (sticky tires, some general massaging in trouble areas) and letting them go ‘round again? Many enthusiasts, especially those who track or Autocross their cars, are stuck 5-10 years behind the times, but make similar updates. I’d love to see what happens if, say, you give a C6 Corvette or a Honda Fit another shot on new tires. Corollary question: Lightning Autocross when??

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komrobert@reddit

Yes, I’d love to see this. The C6 Z06 and ZR1 times seem very slow to me on that list based on what I’ve seen of people lapping their mostly stock cars on YT etc. I think with modern tires and maybe a suspension/mild brake upgrade, a lot of 2000s/early 2010s sports/supercars on the list would improve by 5+ seconds.

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Own-Neighborhood6828@reddit

Seconding this on a decade old cars. Be great to see all cars on the same tire to remove the largest factor in the equation

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minemaster11@reddit

Thanks for doing lightning lap! I picked up a C7 Grand Sport recently, partially because of the times y’all were able to do in the car. I hope to be able to keep up with the GT3/GT4s at track days. The Dark Horse being barely faster than the Mach 1 surprised me with the huge tire upgrade. Does the A10 hold it back that much? How much faster would the M6 be than the A10.

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nameonface@reddit

I wouldn't say it's a "huge" tire upgrade. The Cup 2s on the Mach 1 are fantastic. The Dark Horse is heavier and that doesn't help. The 10-speed got hot, too. Had it been a manual car, I think I could've got the time down a bit. (Also, not shown in the video, I had a great first lap going in the Dark Horse and came over a blind hill in the infield and plowed through a flock of geese. That lap could've been a smidge better being on fresh tires and all.

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dave2979@reddit

Ford definitely thinks the auto is quicker (and they typically are), because that's why they insisted on sending it over a manual

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Spaghetto23@reddit

For the Dark Horse, it's deffo a weight issue.

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Unlucky-Carpenter-69@reddit

Where does the speed of the Dark Horse come from? If I remember correctly, the lap time is tied with a 991.1 Turbo S. Is it all in mechanical grip? Or is it the phenomenal brakes that the Dark Horse comes with?

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nameonface@reddit

You are correct. It ties the 2014 Turbo S. The time comes from the brake and tire package, which make it an absolute beast on the track. A modern tire would do a lot for the ol' Turbo S.

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sc0lm00@reddit

Can I volunteer as a passenger or driver to help you guys out at LL? Seems like a lot to take on and I'd be happy to shoulder some of the burden for free.

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RiftHunter4@reddit

What would you recommend to beginners who want to try a track day or autocross?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Racing school. You will be so much more competitive with just a little bit of instruction.

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dave2979@reddit

You really teed this one up for us. Come check out VIR's Grand Course, it will not disappoint: [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46903626/lightning-lap-track-day-may-8-2024/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46903626/lightning-lap-track-day-may-8-2024/)

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DJSnuggles@reddit

Can we expect to see more LLMOTORCYCLE's in 2025? Ridden by Nate Kern, or somebody of similar skill. Is this the birth of Motorcycle and Rider?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Probably not for 2025. But maybe in the future, particularly if there is a good tie-in to cars. VIR does not like bikes running full or grand. We can't run concurrently so it is a big time suck.

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felis_scipio@reddit

Yeah I’d be into seeing a bike thrown in the mix, hell even a lower end intro sports bike would be neat because then you’d get a feel for how the motorcycle world broadly stacks up against cars.

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dudemancool1904@reddit

Who’s more annoying Carlos Lago or Jason Cammisa?

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clago@reddit

def me

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AnnoyingRingtone@reddit

Can you explain the 3.1 second improvement for the Subaru BRZ? The article said skidpad and braking improvements. Were these brake pads or something?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

We put racier tires and better brake pads on it. We also put a higher-temp brake fluid in it.

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dave2979@reddit

Pads, fluid, tires [https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46767987/2023-subaru-brz-limited-brake-tire-upgrades/](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46767987/2023-subaru-brz-limited-brake-tire-upgrades/)

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Ceolan@reddit

Feel free to ignore if this isn't appropriate, but my question is aimed more towards LL 2023. You guys tested the M240i Xdrive, but there's now an m240i RWD. Do you feel the xdrive helped get you through corners faster? It weighs 123 lbs more than the rwd for reference. I don't think you have any tests documenting it, but do you think perhaps the RWD would perform a bit better? Thanks.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

You can cheat with AWD in a corner and just put your foot into it when doing that in a rear driver will cause power oversteer. The rear driver is likely capable of a faster lap—front tires are less stressed—but the AWD model will be more consistent. Make sense? I'll add RWD M240 to the list for next year.

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Ceolan@reddit

Makes perfect sense. Thank you so much!

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Bottlely@reddit

Another question - the Lucid Air Sapphire continues to impress. Based off your experience testing it, what sort of mods do you guys think would make it near-perfect on the track (as far as a 2.5 tonne EV sedan can be)? Are there any other EVs, whether released or not, you'd like to take a crack at in Lightning Lap?

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dave2979@reddit

A giant, four-door luxury sedan is never going to be near-perfect on the track, but the Sapphire was nevertheless hugely impressive and a tremendous achievement. Just look at what it hangs with. Still, a more aggressive tire and alignment could probably unlock quite a bit more time. I know the tires have some Cup goodness in them, but they're still a balanced tire that rides well and helps to achieve its 427-mile range rating. There's no track alignment; what we ran it in (while more camber than lesser Airs) is how all of them are set up.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

A Tesla Model S Plaid with the brakes. EVs are are, as you say, heavy and unlike an ICE car, they get slower as the "gas" tank is depleted. I think the Sapphire as a lower-power mode that will let you lap indefinitely; I don't think we had time between charges to confirm that. Probably the best mod would be a quick-change battery.

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PrimeAndPunishment@reddit

That was a highly enjoyable video. Thanks for the effort. My question is about the upgrades you did to BRZ. Are we going to see more of these upgrades in the future over stock options?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Possibly. Truth is that we had a few cars drop out at the last minute and the idea came out after a brain-storm session. If we do more in the future, it would have to be the right car and the right mod. Tires and brake pads is a good pairing with the BRZ because it is such an affordable car to start. Is there one you'd like to see?

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PrimeAndPunishment@reddit

Thanks! Not necessarily a mod, per se, but if I remember correctly, the Elantra N's lightning lap wasn't representative because of tires. Now that it's gone through a mid-cycle refresh as well, it'd be interesting to see what it could be with more sticky tires *and* DCT.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I think we tried to get it and we were just a little too early for the mid-cycle car. We'll have it next year

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boe_jackson_bikes@reddit

Any plans to update the all time lighting lap list to be searchable or sortable instead of just a giant image?

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dave2979@reddit

We do realize sortable lists exist, I promise. We've long wanted to do this. Fingers crossed that our next-gen site architecture will make this possible

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JoshTheTrucker@reddit

I watched the video and the production quality was super high, but I noticed that there were two 24 Porsche GT3 RSs, was one of them a weissach and one not? Or was it some other arrangement. Also, please bring in more race cars and more out of the box stuff, it was awesome watching the G56 Camaro and the subaru absolutely shred air through the turns. And finally, did Jack beat his timed lap around the track yet?

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

Yup, there were two. Porsche brought two so that Patrick Long and I could lap at the same time. Both were Weissach, but I was quicker in the green one by a bit. I think we figured out that the yellow car fell out of alignment—either I hit a curb too hard or it was wrong from the start. We'll bring more racecars out when we can. The stars just aligned for the G56 and Airslayer this year. Both came with a whole crew and 18-wheeler. It's a big expense for a race team. Yes, non-hungover Jack runs faster.

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JoshTheTrucker@reddit

Thanks, KC. Awesome to hear, and I'm on the edge of my seat for LL25.

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spriggan4@reddit

For the si, Did the drop in 5 hp have any huge effect on the lap time or was it the gearing that caused certain corners to be in 3rd gear instead of 2nd.

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A2KC@reddit (OP)

I didn't drive it, but Dan Edmunds seemed to think it was more gearing than a small power loss.

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caterham09@reddit

I reference the lightning lap historical data quite a lot so thank you guys for publishing it every year. My question would be how many sets of tires do you guys go through for each car when you do this testing. I know you only use factory spec tires, but do you typically go through several sets over the course of the testing?

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dave2979@reddit

Typically 2-3 sets per car. Whatever used tires it arrives on are used for acclimating on day 1, then a new set on the mornings of days 2 and 3. Pretty much every high-performance tire only has a lap or two in it before performance falls off. There still might be a lot of life left in it, and could handle more lapping sessions, but the times fall off significantly

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caterham09@reddit

Wow that's really enlightening thank you.

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Bottlely@reddit

Will we see more competition in the LLHuman category? After recapturing Carlos Lago, I think Mark and Silverback Jack could give Mr Jack Fitzgerald a run for his money I enjoyed seeing actual race cars taking a shot at LL. Would you guys consider asking around for motorsports cars again next year?

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clago@reddit

Probably not unless we can find someone faster than Jack. My time was 40+ mins two years ago!

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Bottlely@reddit

A C&D staff race could make for a fun read

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GopherHockey10@reddit

Any comments on moving the top of LL2 from 65K to 75K in one year? That's a more than 15% increase. Car enthusiasts are feeling less and less hopeful these days to find fun cars at reasonable prices. Also convenient for the Mustang to be at LL2 this year instead of what would have been LL3.

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