Under a system of anarcho-capitalism. What is there to stop the growth of communist societies?

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bones_bones1@reddit

There’s nothing to stop you from doing that now.

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InterestingMail9321@reddit (OP)

A lot of federal and state regulations would hinder this.

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trufus_for_youfus@reddit

But not free from state control. The government is incredibly antagonistic toward such groups.

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Ok_Job_4555@reddit

How so? As long as you pay your taxes you should be good to go. Everyone owns the means of production

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Ya see it’s those pesky taxes I’m not interested in. If a group of likeminded people want to pool resources or seek investment to voluntarily establish an enclave and build their own infrastructure in the middle of nowhere the IRS will be there by next Tuesday with the ATF and FBI in tow.

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Ok_Job_4555@reddit

You want a communist government and no taxes 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Wait, what about.... nvm 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

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trufus_for_youfus@reddit

When did I say communist?

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Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit

Fair. I guess libertarianism is better for everyone, even commies. Who would have thought?

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3rdgradephd@reddit

Such as?

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TheAzureMage@reddit

Granted. In that respect, libertarianism is probably helpful to would-be commune livers. Not dealing with taxes and regulations is a net boon for everyone. But it's worth noting that communes do not generally displace every other system. When they exist, they tend to either shatter apart, or gentrify into more traditional communities in time.

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Late_Requirement_971@reddit

I don’t know. You can use various ownership and corporate structures to engineer communal ownership by a group of specific people with mechanisms for adding and removing owners. What a group of people does with their communally owned property is their business I’m unaware of any laws or regulations that would prevent people from doing this

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PW_stars@reddit

Under anarcho-capitalism, you're allowed to start a worker-owned business if you want to. And you're allowed to start a commune if you want to (society in which all property is commonly owned). As long as it's 100% voluntary, and you're not forcing anyone to join, then I see no problem with it.

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krebstar42@reddit

Who cares? If it's voluntary it's not a problem.

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nanojunkster@reddit

What I think most people don’t realize is capitalism truly is the natural state of modern societies. It takes oppressive government policies to move an entire country or even a large population to another system because it isn’t natural. That’s why we have never seen a communist economic system outside of a few thousand people.

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Enkeydo@reddit

All systems are capitalist systems. It's just who controls the capital that defines what it is called.

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MannieOKelly@reddit

Think 1960's hippy communes! Pretty rare these days . . . <g>

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krebstar42@reddit

The Amish and Mennonite communities are pretty close.

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Enkeydo@reddit

The Jewish kibbutz system was similar but most of them failed miserably

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

Glad to see you voluntarily joined the party. Resistance is unwise.

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krebstar42@reddit

I'm not joining the commune, insistence is unwise.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

They are not asking.

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krebstar42@reddit

Then they will know me by the trail of the dead.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

And you will die. And they will take your neighbor next. They can continue this because you have nothing. Righteousness does not make victory. Violence and logistics do.

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krebstar42@reddit

I am capable of violence and logistics.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

As am I. But I know it is easy and better with friends.

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krebstar42@reddit

I have friends as well...

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

And thus nations are built. Might make it right. Whether or not we like it, understanding politics and diplomacy is what grants power with violence. I see you are a minarchest. Tell me, what would your military look like?

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krebstar42@reddit

Voluntary military.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

Have you looked at what happens to a voluntary military at scale? Why are you not a member of your military. Are your family not worth protecting? What percentage of a population does it take to overthrow a nation? Why do you think it is such a small percentage? Have you studied previous civil conflicts and why they mostly failed in the past? Nations and community are the exact same thing. Why do the cartels control Mexico? Why does Putin rule Russia? Why does Putin struggle to rule Ukraine?

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Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit

"I want a voluntary military." "Ok then why aren't you part of the military? Checkmate, lolbert."

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

So you think your family should be subject to the tyranny of the more powerful? You think innocent families should be at the mercy of those that hold violent intent? Why are you not fighting to overthrow the powers right now? Is it that maybe you are content with a little bit of tyranny and dying is not worth the loss of your family and friends? You're fine with it as long as the other guy dies.

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spasmaticasshole@reddit

Communism is wonderful so what’s the problem?

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

Anarcho-capitalism willalways fail because they fail to combat voluntary groups forming power over another.

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TheAzureMage@reddit

Voluntary hierarchies are fine. You go to a church, that pastor has authority, but only the authority that his consenting followers give him. The problem is when hierarchies are not voluntary. And we already have that now, so Ancap can hardly do worse.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

10 volunteered to form a clan. They volunteered to take your farm. Do you give it up or die and then have them take it? Might makes right is a very real thing.

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TheAzureMage@reddit

1 v 10 may not be great odds, but its better odds than 1 vs the entire federal government, which is perfectly happy to take land from people today. This worst case scenario remains better than the status quo.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

You fail to see the most basic problem. Tell me, why did our species form a family tribe? Why do you think that evolved to clans? Then to villages and city states? Then to nations and empires?

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TheAzureMage@reddit

Will tyrants rise again? Probably. Then they'll need to be fixed again. This isn't an argument against fixing them now. Hell, when I take a shit, I know that one day, I will have to take a shit again. But I'm still going to wipe my ass now. Politicians are much the same.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

No. Why did we form tribes?

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TheAzureMage@reddit

Because tribes were initially extended families.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

But why? If they were all so perfect only serving their own purpose, would they submit their will and goods to the tribe? Why would the tribe start to extend beyond family?

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TheAzureMage@reddit

There will always be families and extended families. The modern nation is not much like this. A small to midsized town, perhaps. People generally know one another, and have impact on each others day to day lives. Does the man in California have any impact on the life of the man in New Hampshire? Is he actually different than the Canadian who lives closer?

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

So you only think families and extended families should be united? You think that is the answer as to why nations form? Why do you think we moved past sustenance farming? Was it only because we had families?

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TheAzureMage@reddit

>You think that is the answer as to why nations form? I think the primary reason that nations form is that there is a strong incentive to be a tyrant. People crave wealth and power. This is why there is an endless supply of would be dictators, even though dictators often have short reigns and bad ends, and dictatorships are obviously not a very optimal place to live.

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Tempestor_Prime@reddit

Really? You truly believe it is simply that we are tyrants? Those early family tribes only formed because the father was a tyrant? The tribes of Rome only formed because one man was a tyrant? Why did we form companies and corporations rather than be simple sustenance farmers? These concepts are linked.

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InterestingMail9321@reddit (OP)

I agree, it will always just lead to people forming smaller governments for protection with taxes and services, and the more powerful of those would be free to do whatever they please because there is nobody to stop them.

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Genubath@reddit

They usually implode by themselves. As long as it's voluntary, who cares?

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AnKap_Engel@reddit

If you and your commie friends want to separate yourself and go build a voluntary commune, go for it. Youre free to do so. Just know that if you try and compel me or use force to get me to join against my will or take any of my stuff, youre leaving my property with an extra hole.

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ServingTheMaster@reddit

Communism mostly

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Ya_Boi_Konzon@reddit

>anacho capitalism has no government and no statutory laws Correct. >What's to stop me from from getting a group of people or a community and starting a collective where everything is owned by the workers in a traditional communist society? Nothing. >Does anarcho capitalism just narurally assume those will fail Yes. >would there be action to stop it from growing? No.

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gallaj0@reddit

Where are you going to find all the people willing to shovel shit all day while the "more equal than other" communists tell them what to do?

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InterestingMail9321@reddit (OP)

It's just a hypothetical. I more so am trying to find the difference between anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-communism since they are opposites on the x axis of the political spectrum. Although to me it seems that if either system was perfectly implemented with a stateless society, the results would be the same since neither are enforceable.

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TheAzureMage@reddit

The fundamental difference is that Ancoms tend to accept private property as legitimate. They don't want to start a commune by buying a farm. They want to start a commune by taking yours. Obviously, this is unacceptable. Left leaning anarchists that do not intend theft will have no problems with ancap society, but they are the exception, not the rule.

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AutoModerator@reddit

Anarcho communism is an oxymoron. A system as imbecilic as communism can only remain in place with the force of the state. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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Various-Stretch6336@reddit

Fkn coolest bot ever

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gallaj0@reddit

Anarcho-capitalism works without a state when all interaction is voluntary. Nobody's going to shovel shit in your commune without recompense all day while a bunch of people are sitting around writing the next five year plan unless you're forcing them, and then they'll be the first ones over the wall leaving you wallowing in shit. In a capitalist society, people would be willing to pay someone what they think it's worth to shovel shit, while the people writing plans (if that's what the community wants) would be getting paid to do that. If nobody's willing to shovel shit for what you want to pay, you either find someone willing to work cheaper, raise your pay, or do it yourself.

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MannieOKelly@reddit

Well, what if you have an agreement and you do your part and the other person decides not to? Even if transactions are voluntary, to do anything other that simultaneously trade a cow for two pigs, there has to be a way for people to make binding commitments. That means there has to be some enforcement, and that means some form of a court to decide who has or has not violated a (voluntary) agreement), and some law enforcement to enforce the court's decision, with force if necessary. So how can A-C "work" without any mechanism to enforce commitments? (I do think one can imagine some types of agreements being "enforced" by digital contracts on a block-chain, but the types of cases this can deal with are very limited.)

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gallaj0@reddit

Any agreement needs a clause including arbitration if one party thinks the other is breaking the deal. Arbitrators don't have to be a court or police force part of an agency of government.

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MannieOKelly@reddit

Ok but what if one party just ignores the arbitration decision? Still have to have enforcement somewhere in the system

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gallaj0@reddit

Private security for the enforcement of the private arbitration.

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MannieOKelly@reddit

Oh fun! Gang wars! Lots of collateral damage, too!

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InterestingMail9321@reddit (OP)

Who are you trying to argue against? I'm not a communist

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AutoModerator@reddit

Anarcho communism is an oxymoron. A system as imbecilic as communism can only remain in place with the force of the state. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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Montananarchist@reddit

They will fall for the same reasons they always: stagnation, no innovation, lack of individual accountability and personal motivation but that's not something that would be interfered with by An-caps as long as the society remained voluntary. When, not if, they attempted to put up a version of the Berlin Wall to stop the "brain drain" and imprison those who seek a better life and better rewards for their talent by relocating to a capitalist society. An-caps would be morally justified to help free the imprisoned.

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Likestoreadcomments@reddit

Inside of an ancap society they would be able to branch out and purchase the innovations that drive a capitalist society. There is no ancap society inside of an “ancom” or communist society from which to draw.

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AutoModerator@reddit

Anarcho communism is an oxymoron. A system as imbecilic as communism can only remain in place with the force of the state. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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Various-Stretch6336@reddit

Now that is a fkn good bot.

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Likestoreadcomments@reddit

Good bot Thats why I put it in quotes

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joedotphp@reddit

Was going to say "they definitely did that on purpose." Same way I said left libertarian a few days ago.

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AutoModerator@reddit

Left libertarianism is an oxymoron. There can be no liberty without economic liberty. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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Likestoreadcomments@reddit

Good bot

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Likestoreadcomments@reddit

Lol and there it is.

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Altruistic-Stop4634@reddit

I think it's important that you can practice communism in a libertarian society but you can't practice libertarianism in a communist system.

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dagoofmut@reddit

Bingo

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Vondum@reddit

I would welcome communist groups, companies, or even cities as long as everyone involved is ok with it. One of the things I like about libertarianism is that it can fit pretty much any other ideology/lifestyle and everyone can live in any way they want, but tha same is not true the other way around. Heck, a fully communist-run town would be a great test. Maybe this time it will work and prove us all wrong 😉

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scody15@reddit

Communism.

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xulore@reddit

I've been telling socialists this for a while... We have room for you in our system, you just can't tell anyone else how to live their life lol.

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rebeldogman2@reddit

No one would have a problem with anyone doing that. It is a form of anarcho capitalism. Now try to form an anarcho capitalist society in a communist society… that’s where the communists would use force to stop them.

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Trypt2k@reddit

We would encourage it and if we saw it succeeding others would adopt it and we could have an ancap utopia with small communes (companies). As long as these communities do not start infringing on their neighbours (such as claiming that the neighbour's private property is not recognized and then claiming the property for their commune), then all's good. The communes may be communistic within, but would be in an ancap relationship with each other, and society at large.

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Mead_and_You@reddit

The only thing standing in their way would be their own incompetence. That's why they don't want it. No one to blame when they fail.

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midnight_shopkeeper@reddit

Let's also remember that the commies have a pretty solid track record of falling apart all on their own

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midnight_shopkeeper@reddit

If you're interfering in other people's communities then you aren't much of a libertarian

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TheAzureMage@reddit

There isn't a mechanism to prevent that. Ancap ideology assumes that capitalism will generally be more popular than other system, but it does not attempt to force this outcome. If you want to start a community where people voluntarily adopt other rules, you can. Even non economic rules. Want to be Amish or something? Sweet, have a great life. The only real problem comes in if you want to try to start by stealing property from others. That's a hard no go.

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dontwasteink@reddit

No government and no laws, means the biggest and most organized gangs will take over. We go back to a feudal / slavery society.

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ExcitingAds@reddit

Communist societies are wonderful in an AnCap society, as long as people participate voluntarily without coercion.

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No_Helicopter_9826@reddit

The secret ingredient is consent

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willthesane@reddit

Folks assume they will fail. But so long as they are voluntary go gor it

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livenn@reddit

Communism in smaller scopes works incredibly well when the members are united cause. That cause, however, has to be beyond materialistic which is EXTREMELY rare given how naturally greedy people are. I think a good example of a communist setting in true anarchy/ancap situations would be a religious monastery/temple. They do-exist but limit inclusion immensely

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Impossible-Test-7726@reddit

The only example I know of are the Jews in Israel who live in Kibbutz. I guess the religious aspect of it makes them stable.

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livenn@reddit

100%, same with catholic monasteries or Buddhist temples

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Impossible-Test-7726@reddit

Nothing, people should be free to make communes if they choose, like the Kibbutz in Israel.

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tacticalwhale530@reddit

What’s to stop you? No one Does anarcho-capitalism assume this would fail? Short answer is, yes. Would there be actions to stop you? Provided everything going on in your collective is voluntary, no. That’s the whole point behind ancap and other volunteerist philosophies.

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Rod_MLCP@reddit

nothing, the whole point of it is to let people do whatever they want so long they are not harming other people or their property. if a bunch of commies want to peacefully acquiere some land and build a marxist community where everyone involved agreed on being part of, wtf do i have to do with that? also anarcho capitalism is not not having any goverment, is not having a state, that being a form of goverment that uses coercion to govern. if you want to read about how this could look like there is the book "Free Private Cities" by Titus Gebel

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rubbird@reddit

Yeah you can have your little commune in ancap, aa long as everyone consents

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User125699@reddit

Free markets

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IsThatABattery@reddit

Nothing? Why do you want to stop them? If a group of people collectively agree to live…well collectively, let them? As long as they aren’t forcing

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Intelligent-End7336@reddit

Nothing. Have fun, good luck.

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