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I mean I got my covid shot this year and flu booster as well. But yeah, a lot of people are being lax on both, largely because of politics or the fact that the vaccine usually does lay you out for a day. And humans are too near sighted to realize a day is better than a week, or possibly life changing consequences.
Also, the "vax and relax" strategy is dangerously misleading considering how prevalent breakthrough infections are. Sure it might keep you out of the hospital in the short term, but those accumulating reinfections seem to be taking a toll on everyone as time marches forward.
https://whn.global/scientific/covid19-immune-dysregulation/
My understanding is that the boosters have had way too low uptake, something like only 20% of the population, if we could get those numbers higher it would help prevent infections more often than merely being a severity reducer.
The antivax crew has won the day. It's sooo frustrating. We had 85% uptakevwith the first round. It's possible. All kinds of vaxxes are required all the time.
But somehow a booster that takes a few minutes every 6 months is now inconceivable. I don't get it...except that I do understand how and why vulnerable/ignorant people have been made to feel afraid or skeptical.
Rn the recent vax is a "personal choice." So here wer are.
If polio vax or smallpox vax had been a personal choice, they'd still be affecting us.
But the world we live in is so screwed up by fearful politicians and a *minority* of self centered "rebel" whiners, no one wants to deal with the blowback.
Society has decided its simpler easier to let the disease roam where it will...and here we are.
In a few years we'll see what that really looks like. The next vax uptake will be even lower. It's every person for themself.
Welcome to step 573 of collapse.
>But somehow a booster that takes a few minutes every 6 months is now inconceivable.
The uptake on vaccination the first time around was in order to eliminate the possibility of the disease becoming endemic. It's endemic now.
It's endemic like malaria and syphilis are endemic, as someoneelse noted...technically I think its endemicity is still being debated because it's waves are too steep or when it's "flat" it's still too high or it's still technically not controlled...something like that. It's a moot point.
This is a pessimistic take. There was never a hope of eradicating COVID-19 through quarantine and vaccination. The best-case scenario was avoiding a collapse of the medical system through the first few spikes and as a society we met that challenge. We succeeded.
Thereafter, the only plausible outcome was the virus joining the flu as an annual disease. It’s now managed the same way, with annual booster shots (flu and COVID) provided voluntarily to a subset of the population.
Regarding conservatives and their rejection of scientific and common-sense medical recommendations, they served a role in the integration of this virus into society. They died by the hundreds of thousands with millions more enduring acute illness. It’s an idiot’s vaccination and it served its purpose. Our sacrifice were shots, masks, and isolation. Their sacrifice was illness and death. Again, we succeeded.
Some people were meant to be the crumple zone for society. It’s not a sign of collapse rather it’s a sign of resilience that a portion of society will defiantly throw themselves off a cliff for the unwitting benefit of society. They should be celebrated.
OK, so imagine Biden requiring evryone have special air filters in the country. Repubes would have LOVED that. You're mad at the wrong ppl. You need to be mad at repubes not the government.
There is nothing special about the filters, and if you can't manage that kind of infrastructure overhaul, then you're not making it in the climate apocalypse.
You can not air filtrate a virus on a mass bases. Droplets that help them travel sure.
But air filter them out totally no. Not affordable or doable making everything a hospitals isolation room for unknowns.
Can you help and .ale air better yes. More outside air better filters to an extent. But say lots of public schools are underfunded by the same politicians calling HVAC a joke.
Wife has an elevator at her office that is out of service more than in service. Works from home and hates now if random day everyone comes in. Bad knee and stairs. Get them good air for all the workers.
Ah, yes! Thank you for pointing that out. I indeed did not realize I was in r/collapse. I subscribe to this subreddit specifically for alternative viewpoints that are avoided by the mainstream. Thank you for sharing your point of view!
are we pessimists? i think the glass is completely full, half with air and half with water. the collapse of industrial society and it's consequences is inevitable but it's only pessimistic if you see that as being a wholly *bad thing*.
I mean I guess it's up for debate. But I think.getting sick absolutely sucks and a lot of people don't. Bring on collapse driven reform, but maybe without the incapacitating side effects of disease...
seems like it comes down to perspective and personal identity, maybe, in that i know intellectually that collapse will be devastating for me but emotionally i've done all i can to identify more as part of the whole than as a separate individual, and when including all beings near and far in the calculations and not /just/ humans, i'd say the collapse of globalized civilization is a net positive. so there's this dichotomy of feeling about it but generally, collapse accelerating is something i mostly look forward to with just a little tickle of selfishly motivated dread.
Ah, yes! Thank you for pointing that out. I indeed did not realize I was in r/collapse. I subscribe to this subreddit specifically for alternative viewpoints that are avoided by the mainstream. Thank you for sharing your point of view!
I modified my text to be more appropriate.
Vaccine efficacy against the Wuhan strain of SARS-CoV-2 at the end of 2020/beginning of 2021, when it was *just* starting to be rolled out everywhere, was **95%**.
So why wasn't COVID-19 eradicated in 2021, you ask? Because as early as mid- to late 2020, the disinformation campaigns were already ramping up, *against vaccines that had not even been deployed yet*.
Chinese trolls on Xitter were posting John Campbell's anti-NPI and Ryan Coles anti-vaccination videos at the rate of ***6 tweets/replies PER SECOND*** by October 2020.
By December 2020, this had caused enough plague spread, that the Alpha variant mutated, escaping the vaccines' previously-sterilising immunity, and reducing vaccine efficacy to around 70%. And this has just gotten worse and worse, as time has progressed, through Delta, then Omicron, all of which were caused by large-scale disinformation campaigns on American anti-social media websites. [Source](https://nitter.unixfox.eu/TheSpoonless/status/1746502382484152657)
The Internet was a mistake. SARS-CoV-2 would have been eradicated in 2021, if Xitter and Meta and Alphabet, and all the other American killing corporations, had been "locked down" (or at least temporarily shut down) along with everything else that was NON-essential. But here we are. One forever pandemic later.
**Caveat:** The only thing that MAY stop this unendurable every-winter-is-a-triple-demic-winter-now cycle between the Northern and Southern hemisphere, is the fact that Corbevax (which just got WHO approval, which means it can go out worldwide), as close to a universal coronavirus vaccine as possible, right now (ScanCell UK's COVIDITY would be better, but they can't secure funding or manufacturing), and has currently been given to millions (*millions*) of people in India right now. COVIDITY was tested in a widespread Phase 2 trial in Africa.
If Corbevax gets widespread availability, and widespread uptake throughout 2024 (which it may, as there are signs people are finally starting to wake up to how the Russians/Chinese have leveraged American antisocial media websites to cause this global omnicide), there might be a chance the plague will not mutate again...or, if it does, it will be far less virulent, in a much better-protected population.
High probability there will *not* be either another Delta or Omicron mutation event in 2024, however. Which is why the Chinese and Russian trolls continue to howl all kinds of anti-vaccination anti-NPI nonsense on these American hell sites, to keep vaccination levels low, so there will be much mistrust and low uptake of whichever universal coronavirus vaccine wins the day and literally saves the world.
For more on ScanCell's SC27 antibody (in their COVIDITY vaccine) see this thread, specifically this tweet:
https://nitter.unixfox.eu/ENirenberg/status/1750082494853222563#m
For more on Corbevax, read this:
https://theconversation.com/corbevax-a-new-patent-free-covid-19-vaccine-could-be-a-pandemic-game-changer-globally-174672
Those of us with 3+ vaccinations (more and more well-matched to what's circulating is better) have almost as good antibody titers as those with "hybrid immunity" see the final chart in this PDF:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.08.01.23293522v1.full.pdf
Hi, Admirable_Arugula549. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1aiqle9/-/koy8pgw/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
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You say every six months. For wife that has reactions to both covid and vaccine ugh.
But still we only all had covid once. Her doing vaccines with possible reactions and side effects every six months would not be good.
I and we t me to take flu vaccines on bad years. So a little more often. We are older but not ancient and have had flu vaccines over the years and probably exposure. Probably have some immunity by now. So except bad years or if hear something new going around decide by any other health issues us as parents have. Son has had more flu shots than he recently.
But for some covid shots can ugh also.
Plus also wife works remotely mostly. One day a week in the office.
When she actually tested positive saying think I should work from home all week. OMG management. Well if you can't come into work that day must be sick so can't work from home normal days either.
Or you feel fine enough to work from home still come into work that one day. But positive covid test.
But work from home sick is still different than driving into work thirty minutes a d home thirty minutes. Yes usually does dress for work from home but casual. But sick just jammies.
Plus have easy restroom access at home and easy hot tea access. Plus me a husband that is sometimes helpful to her.
But yes covid just a cold mentality.
Wife didn't have a good reaction to the vaccine. Then later got the new covid and has symptoms like taste still.
Between the two she doesnt want covid again or the newest booster.
Plus even I am in limbo as got more boosters but not the newest at the time we all got covid.
Sort of maybe we have some immunity from covid now maybe or should we get the booster to increase it maybe.
Then will wife get new symptoms with the new booster or .when some of the ones she has from covid improve.
So limbo. Maybe a vaccine covering more possible strains of covid will come out or will it always be the flu just catching up.
I understand where wife is coming from. The shit gave her side effects that last a long time. But then so did covid. Would another booster have helped that or not.
I've passed on the shots since the first booster in 12/2021, which messed me up for a year after rapid onset of complications within 24 h. I understand what she went through.
Still novid, rely on NPIs and keeping social contacts limited. It's working, so I'll keep doing it
I think you're technically correct there, but that would still leave animal reservoirs preventing compete eradication, which means we'd need to convince a huge majority to continue getting vax updates indefinitely. Seems impossible when we couldn't even pull off the first round successfully.
I don't think we can wipe it out completely, but I think if we got as many people as get the flu vaccine to get a Covid booster we'd be on the way towards breaking the transmission cycles in communities generally. And that could reduce its evolution.
Yes it is. The vaccine+previous infection provide a much stronger protection than previous infection alone. Every study confirms this.
1. ["“Hybrid immunity” derived from a mix of infection by SARS-CoV-2 and vaccination provides higher protection against reinfection than vaccination or infection alone, shows a systematic review published in Lancet Infectious Diseases."](https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p171)
2. [Our results show that, for participants with 2, 3 or 4 prior immunizing events (vaccination or previous infection), hybrid immunity is more protective against infection with SARS-CoV-2 Omicron than vaccine-induced immunity, up to at least 30 weeks after the last immunizing event.](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-40195-z)
3. [The effectiveness of previous infection against hospital admission or severe disease was 74·6% (95% CI 63·1–83·5) at 12 months. The effectiveness of previous infection against reinfection waned to 24·7% (95% CI 16·4–35·5) at 12 months.](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00801-5/fulltext)
"We aim to estimate the protective effect of previous infections and vaccinations on SARS-CoV-2 Omicron infection, using data from 43,257 adult participants in a prospective community-based cohort study in the Netherlands, collected between 10 January 2022 and 1 September 2022. Our results show that, for participants with 2, 3 or 4 prior immunizing events (vaccination or previous infection), hybrid immunity is more protective against infection with SARS-CoV-2 Omicron than vaccine-induced immunity"
I've got 3, so I don't need more. That's what the study supports.
So current doctors advice is to wait 90 days from the first symptoms. So if you had it in December, you should schedule your shot for the same day of the month this month that you got sick in December.
Immunity to Covid wanes rather fast (it does to most other coronaviruses like the common cold too). That's the reason we're likely to see annual boosters in the fall when we go into Covid and Flu season. However unlike the flu, Covid doesn't die back quite as much or as quickly in the spring (there is less seasonality to it than the flu), so getting a shot now that your infection immunity is gone would definitely not be wasted.
I know how it works. I am a healthcare provider and I've worked in hospital settings for over a decade and have done both in-home visits and community outreach with at risk populations. Aside from that, I'm also gonna trust my doctor who (rightfully) says it's not necessary since I was recently infected. Because that's how immunity works, regardless of method of infection. The vaccine doesn't have an extra defense, it activates the immune system in place.
What you do have with a vaccination is a mounted immune response so your body thinks it's in active infection which, doesn't make the immune system stronger just slightly more reactive ...at a cost of having increased inflammation in the body due to the mounted immune response. Hence why you feel like shit after the shot.
So in the absence of the need to put my body and organs through increased inflammation every 3-6 months, I'll pass
Maybe, but you could probably still get a booster, this past year's booster didn't have any of the original virus in it, so it was all new and could help balance out protection against getting reinfected.
Na, There are so many strains circulat8ng now you need the vaccine to have any chance of matching immunity.
Vaccine has alot of commone strains, natural immunity 9nly covers one
Each time I get it I'm laid out for a day afterwards, low energy, warm. It's enough that I try to avoid doing the shot when I have plans the next day. Hasn't kept me from getting the boosters, and I usually get them as soon as they're offered, but I know I'm in the minority in America.
Sucks it affects you that much but yea still worth it.
The positive of everyone being complacent is I don't trust our supply chains to actually provide the vaccine if there was proper demand lol
Sometimes part of me getting the booster is just to add to the stats and keeping the demand to producers that people still get them and that it’s worth producing still.
I only had sore arm for all my vaccines until the most recent one but thankfully it just lasted till the night and I slept it off. I felt nausea like no other, fatigue, sleepiness, sore arm and then I got better the next day. All my previous ones barely had any symptoms (it did bruise one time Im forgetting which one which i kinda loved to press on lol)
I get sick for two days. Fever, chills, nausea, fatigue, muscle pain etc. I received my last booster in October. I caught Covid at the end of November (thanks for coming to Thanksgiving sick , Mom and Dad). It knocked me out for weeks. And I got Paxlovid as soon as I could. If I hadn’t had that booster, I’m not sure I’d have survived. The 2 days sick from the vaccine was a walk in the park next to Covid itself. I’ll happily be sick for 2 days a year to not get hospitalized. Btw, I’m on immunosuppressants, so viruses hit me hard.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroCovidCommunity/s/TLhlGVtfiO
I’m not sure if external links are accepted here, but this subreddit has a lot of the main research points up front. You can do google searches for covid + acquired immunodeficiency, covid + telomeres, mild covid + vascular damage. There are so very many peer-reviewed research papers that are not being shared mainstream because the truth is scary and the governments and corporations want you to keep working and eating at restaurants and not panic. Heck, an article was just released that, during the panel on long-covid, the CDC actively hid public comments about quality masks and air filtration.
Yea downvote. Really want to know your definition of medical establishment. Plus what country etc. plus if say US politics overrules lots.
Plus policies you want?
Have you tried thinking of the stock market, though?
Our profits really can't handle any more lockdowns. We need to be open for business!
/s but also note I'm jot advocating lockdowns, just, yknow, vax and mask where it makes sense
What do you propose? Shut down the economy and collapse faster? Carry on as we are and collapse slower? More vaccines? Different vaccines? We don't have a lot of levers to pull. That's the whole point of collapse, it's unavoidable, you just get to choose the speed.
Also, don't forget the study that got buried quite quickly. Covid probably causes dementia on a massive scale but it takes a decade or two to show. Do the vaccines stop that, who really knows? You simply do not stop a virus with the infection rate of a coronavirus. Sure people can claim if we all stayed in our houses for 6 months it would have been stopped. But in reality there would have been a pocket of it and it would have just flared up again with global air travel. We could repeat the cycle over and over again until we have no economy left at all and everyone is near starvation. But it only takes a few cases to go global again.
[https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.23.432474v2](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.23.432474v2)
- More active required testing with Unlimited Free tests
- Better air ventilation
- Yes, more vaccines
- Better access to medications that aid in COVID recovery
- Disposing of the stigma that “living with COVID” == ignoring it exists
I don't see the point though. Every single person on the planet is going to encounter it at some point. You're delaying it, not stopping it. So everyone still runs the risk of neurological damage. I think that neurological damage is going to turn out to be fatal in a good number of cases of even healthy looking people 10-20 years down the line. I think this could be a civilization ending event in the long term. Sometimes I think I'm wrong, then I look back at that macaque study.
You're trying to turn back the tide and humanity is not all powerful. This needed to be stopped when they decided on using serial passage on a live attenuated vaccine in a country with relaxed restrictions and poorer bio safety. It was a lab leak and they knew they'd potentially just ended civilization, which is why they freaked out.
>Every single person on the planet is going to encounter it at some point. You're delaying it, not stopping it. So everyone still runs the risk of neurological damage.
This way of thinking is part of the ongoing problem. It suggests that the only options are either to eradicate up to 100% of COVID-19, or to show complete indifference to it and let it run rampant because we "can't do anything". Mitigation efforts are seen as pointless in this way of thinking, cause even if they can drastically improve our chances of not contracting COVID (as well as generally improve public health), since COVID won't go away then why bother?
The reality is: The amount of virus you breath in matters, hence why upgraded air filtration in buildings is so important. And this would also generally improve the air quality in general in buildings, so its a win-win.
The amount of exposures to COVID you have also matters. Having multiple COVID infections is not the same amount of risk as having a single COVID infection. Of course anecodtes vary, but generally speaking each subsequent COVID infection increases the chances of long-term damage. This is why masking if you are sick, actively testing, etc are still important.
​
>You're trying to turn back the tide and humanity is not all powerful.
What do you mean by "turn back the tide"? I don't anticipate a sudden shift in collective consciousness, but advocating for common-sense precautions remains crucial. This virus impacts not only the immunocompromised and high-risk individuals but also the general population. Any impact we make in advocating for these measures is still a win, even if it reaches just one person.
Thing is...we know the incubation period & it's not that long. If people were *PAID* to stay home for the length of the incubation period - enforced, with warnings (& funds) to stock up on food & supplies and only *actual* emergency personnel allowed out - then we could completely stop it.
Except it's been proven that the human race is too selfish to do that. The ones in charge are too selfish to order it. The ones down the street from you are too selfish to curtail 'muh freedum' for that long and would rebel if it *were* actually ordered.
Maybe start by not lying to everyone on a massive scale, even if that's what they preferred to hear initially.
[How the press manufactured consent for never-ending COVID reinfections](https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-consent)
Most people are so uninformed that the average person literally believes N95 respirators don't offer effective personal protection.
Yeah at the very least enable people to do simple things like masking to take care of themselves. Here in American the Biden administration wants us to think things are good enough to not have to mask be cause that bodes well for reelection
One is on a boat. It has a hole in it. It is filling with water rapidly. It's a bigass hole and there's nothing to patch it with. What do you propose?
That's the thing. We think we're in control of this shit, we are not.
I propose we do not allow a mine-shaft gap if you follow me. Because yeah, give it a minute or ten.
Better ventilation in public places and businesses, running air through purifiers would not only reduce respiratory virues but also remove particulate matter that has a lot of health problems. Numerous studies have shown kids going to school with these systems in place have higher test scores and less health problems, and yes they accounted for variables.
We should also have government support for vaccines still and not throw everyone at the mercy of the profit motive, we should also be pushing companies to keep working on their vaccines to do better and not continue to sit and count their money while the virus mutates.
I’m in HVAC on the air control manufacturing side, we just had our yearly convention in Chicago with like 50k people crammed into the convention center, it almost made me feel physically unwell to see and have to walk around in that.
Funnily enough while my particular little important but unglamorous sector of the industry was not very well represented, every tenth company is doing UV light setups now, hope everyone’s eyesight is good to go since that is apparently the way they are going to try and handle it.
I personally have grave reservations about my good old boy industry (have to be careful what I say to customers), although for most of them I approach what is coming in conversation as job security until the end haha.
In the 1930's they set up some UV lights in schools, aimed at the ceilings with ceiling fans gently wafting the air upwards that showed great reductions in spread of disease, Measles and every other godforsaken disease they had under the sun. So there may be some promise in those UV lights.
The filtering of the air however would not only take out the viruses but also all the particulate matter, so it seems to be the more superior method seeing as these particulates are only going to get worse. Of course you are at the mercy of the companies in replacing the filters.
I would like to see open source filters that could be packed with charcoal and fibers ourselves which would greatly reduce cost for that reason.
So are you saying these UV lights are bad for the eyes? I can't see how they wouldn't be really, but if they are pointed elsewhere is the ambient light still bad?
If people and our public health response attempted to mitigate like it’s airborne (which it is) in any semblance of cohesive fashion, that would be a good start and also part of the reason why things are as bad as they are currently is a largely global refusal to do just that. The amount of disabling and deaths never needed to be this bad — we can’t put the cat back in the bag but we can certainly attempt to mitigate it (clean air related policies, not just vaccines which don’t stop transmission). Throwing up our hands is not the answer.
Smart phone Bluetooth device that you can blow into and it tells you what respiratory pathogens you have.
2x sick pay to stay at home if you test positive
Army for enforcement.
Tbh if you want to mitigate cases the best thing would be to make masking more prevalent. And sick days too of course but 2x pay is not necessary. Just normal pay for normal sick days.
But really humanity had no hope of eradicating Covid. It’s here and always will be. And even with measures in place millions of people will still catch h it and pass it on.
I was with you until the "army for enforcement."
The army should under no circumstances be enforcing anything within US borders and the moment it does it's a matter of time before we have a dictator.
Wait until global warming fucks shit up in 5-10 years. Either way you look at it, the economy is fucked. So, with that said, wouldn't it behoove us to start taking measures now to avoid a collapse through actual motivations opposed to this, "save the status quo at all costs," bullshit?
> What do you propose?
Not the person you asked and also not really a specific step-by-step answer,.. but the thing I've always advocated for (decades and decades now).. is that we (global society) have to start doing a better job of uplifting and helping those at the very bottom (where ever they may be).
Even if you only look at USA data on "causes of mortality".. the vast majority of the stuff in the "Top 10" are preventable things. (and that's in a 1st world nation).
What we really should be doing (on a global scale)
* gathering what data we already have (or if gaps in that data, creating a framework to fill those gaps and start collecting better data)
* identify the "hot spots" around the world where the worst social conditions show the highest likelihood of spreading serious disease
* focus and dedicate resources to improving those "hotspots".
We should be asking ourselves "What's gives us the best bang for the buck" (or "where can we get the most traction" or "where can we make the biggest upward difference?")
Once we've identified that,.. we need to roll up our sleeves and start putting boots on the ground to do it. We've eradicated diseases from the planet before. We have the technical means and knowledge and skill to do it.
It’s tempting to imagine a sharp, cataclysmic event could shock the world into action on climate change. What if 80,000 people die during a summertime power outage, in Texas? What if 1,000 Long Islanders are washed out to sea in an ‘unprecedented’ storm surge? What if there are failed harvests in multiple regions causing mass starvation?
In a post trolley scenario, could we come out of a disastrous stretch where we’ve lost the people on the tracks, but everyone in the trolley understands the need to act with purpose and urgency? The pandemic has left us with a tragic conclusion, that losing 30 million won’t make us smarter, more resilient, more prepared or more insightful. It’ll leave us arguing, dying, degraded, cognitively impaired and less prepared for the next event.
On another note, we should acknowledge the role very powerful elites played on both ends of the pandemic. We never would’ve shut down in March of 2020, if very wealthy people weren’t very scared. It was shocking, to me, that we collectively quarantined and it never would’ve been possible without the buy-in from very high level people. For people like me, who support public health, it was gratifying to see so much work happen to trudge through difficult times. Yes, there were a lot of downsides, but I was happy to be disciplined about it, because I supported the measures from a public health perspective. However, I’m a nobody, and after vaccines came out, and bodies weren’t being stacked in trailers, behind hospitals, the very high-level elites acted like Ron DeSantis was onto something and people like me were out-of-touch weirdos. That’s because the people in charge felt safer, and they were done with public health, for now. As a nobody, I accept that other people make the big decisions. However, our arguing over vaccines, quarantines, masks amounts to a lot of nobodies arguing over decisions that weren’t ours to make.
I sadly don't think there will be any sort of collective spur to action. Seems like the greater populace in the developed world refuses to give up the current consumerist way of life anyway which is so disheartening
You should see the pics of Davos. Top of the line ventilation devices everywhere, open windows, outdoor interviews...and I bet they tested daily and required vaxxes. I think a lot of meetings were also online. They were mitigating aggressively--but v few masks, because masks are bad optics.
The elites know how to keep themselves safe..the rest of us are on purpose own and most people dgaf. Plebes will plebe.
The thing is, COVID is more akin to those old feco-oral path diseases, like cholera in how you'd properly deal with it.
The issue is, our overlords are ideologically allergic to the infrastructure overhauls that would be needed.
How would you suggest "everyone" would give a shit? Do you want the societies to continue living in the constant state of panic, like the first two years of covid?
We have covid vaccine readily available everywhere now, get the annual booster and you'll be fine. What else do you want to be happening?
We could normalize better indoor air, especially in schools and workplaces; high quality masks could be worn more often, workplaces could offer healthier workspaces, encourage wfh, better sick leave. Make antivirals easily available and free.
Vax booster uptake is shit. V few are getting it. It needs to promoted, possible mandated. Make better vaxxes.
More health spending because repeated covid infections mean you're more likely to catch other stuff because immunity is compromised.
For the vax solution to work people can't just stop getting them--and they are. In Canada 85% got the first round, only around 20% got the most recent one. Everyone I know who'd not gotten covid suddenly caught it over the holidays
Frankly, just ignoring it and hoping for the best while huge numbers of people suffer is very on brand collapse. People are going to age faster, get dementia younger...
So let's throw up our hands.
>Make better vaxxes.
Yeah. That's pretty much the thing. I will definitely not get a forth round for a vax that at this point doesn't stop spread, doesnt stop infection but just gives a milder version... And you have to refresh it like every half year.... I am not gonna stop you on getting that. But it's not feasible to criticize anyone anymore for not holding up the the "schedule"
Why not? More people getting it still reduces the symptoms, reduces spread, reduces severity. Are you afraid of the vac?
Is the antivax BS actually getting to you?
Someone asked how to reduce covid and a vax schedule does that. It takes like 10 minutes once every 4 to 6 months. Are you too busy?
Honestly I get sicker from the vaccine from covid I stoped after the third one. Would make profusely sick for 5 days. When I’ve had covid I’m sick for like 2 days.
It's possible you're only sick from Covid because of the vax...but it's true the vax isn't for everyone. That being said a critical mass needs to get it for it to work.
I’ll get another one when the strain mutates and becomes more deadly again. I do the same for the flu. Last time I got the flu vaccine was 2017 when we had a bad flu epidemic in the United States that killed 70k people.
So you never had side effects with the vax? I definitely had my fair share of fever. And no. I definitely won't do that ever 4 or 6 months.
If you still talking about antivax BS I would advise you to leave 2022. It's getting old. Especially when I am vaccinated three times.
No one wants to have that anymore. The 20% is mostly old people so if you are within the 10% of people in our supposed age group who still do it be happy with it. But it's a small edgy minority that doesn't really hurt someone. So all power to you
I'm over 50. No side effects other that a sore arm and maybe 12 hrs of spaciness.
I don't know a single human affected by the vax beyond a few days, but know way too many people dealing with covid crap.
And yes, anti vax paranoia has indeed won the day. Yell at me all you want, but here you are proving it.
And maybe I'm wring and you're right? Eventually science will reveal the truth. But rn were trapped in a politicized hell where rational discussion seems impossible. Oh and conspiracy theorists definitely are played a role in keeping this BS going.
There's a reason I joined the collapse group. What's yours? To minimize or deny?
I joined not because of Covid. In my opinion its distracting to still talk about it. We have way larger problems. Which funnily enough includes future pandemics. I really don't see how we will avoid several other rounds of different Viruses with the current mass (630 million metric tons) of unregulated farm animals and humans living in bad conditions.
Then there is of course the collapse of our ecosystems. Which makes Covid look like a small funny episode in comparision.
While this is going on we have a society that tumbles into different very dangerous dynamics. One of them is a constant tribalization. You just started this again here by telling me that I am a conspiracy theorist because I don't want a fourth vaccine shot.....
On the vaccine topic lets please agree that you are not an idiot for continueing vaccines and I am not a conspiracy theorist for not doing that. As you said time will tell (if there is any science left to capture that in any meaningful way in 20 years). I think this is a reasonable agreement while forgetting the discussion before.
My simple point is that I am not the biggest fan to discuss a (in my opinion) very small problem when simultaneously the oceans are warming up to previously unkown degree in unkown speed with unkown consequences. In my mind that just sounds bonkers.
Well it seems the OP made a successful case for including an article about excess covid deaths on this page...you don't have to agree, but it seems a narrow view.
I agree other things are happening...but covid expedite ls collapse inexorably, even if one minimizes it. People are disappearing from the economy. Last week in a local tourist town, 2 restaurants weren't open because staff out ill. Imagine that on a larger scale...hospitals, universities, schools etc etc (med field in total crisis for a bunch of reasons but covid remains one)
The gaps from.the first rounds of death and disability are still felt but they're hidden behind a veneer of normalcy. It's incremental but it will add to the weight of the other problems over time...it already is.
And if theories that multiple cases of covid make one vulnerable to immune collapse, the next pandemic will be even uglier.
Finally, covid causes brain damage and speeds up aging. So there's that to look forward to: when a critical mass cannot function nor contribute to the economy over time. Of course, we'll have to deal with people blaming the vax to the point where other vaxxes are ignored, potentially prompting the return of some old school diseases...
The 1918 influenza had an impact that lasted years beyond the first deadly waves.
It's our reality moving forward. I'm on this collapse sub to track the multiple streams of disaster colliding in slow motion. Covid, I agree, is not the only one, but shouldn't be dismissed just yet.
I go to the dentist every 6 months. I get a vax every 6 months.
Until they figure this out, I'm using whatever is out there to delay or minimize catching it
"Deadly and debilitating" lmfao. I had a cold a few months prior to covid and it was significantly worse. Stop shaking in your boots and live life like a normal person.
I live a pretty good life--I'm v privileged. I go to dinner. I travel. I invite unmasked friends over.
But I'm also a bit older and have had a few crazy tropical diseases from a life lived abroad (dengue for example) and have no desire to experience that kind of thing again anytime soon.
And just because it doesn't affect you symptomatically doesn't mean others aren't having their lives ruined pointlessly because no one can make the barest, low key effort (there's a comment on here about a woman's child nearly dying from it ffs).
I'm guessing the one effect of covid you may still suffer from is brain damage of some kind, in which you cannot imagine the way life is for others nor comprehend nuance regarding ways of taking precautions on a large scale that don't actually interfere with whatever capitalist comforts covid minimizers are desperate to consume at all costs.
Do you wear a seat belt? If so, are you then "quaking with fear" while in a car? These subjective, hyperbolic attacks are just...stupid.
I have not one, but two, close friends with genuine LC. One is a prof who had to take a year of med leave. She is supersmart, but 6 mos in she can't finish the Monday crossword (she used to do Sunday's in pen in minutes). Her brain is fried. She's basically flirting with dementia at 48.
I personally like my brain as is, my body able to function. A vax every 6 months, masking at Costco and on airplanes, assessing risk relative to payoff and using an air purifier when I have friends over is seriously not that much work.
I manage risk of all kinds in a number of ways. Adding this isn't that much effort. Basically we are allowing a disease that is indeed debilitating to many (if not you personally) to spread willy nilly because a) economy needs it and b)a majority of people are lazy or clueless or in denial.
As a woman, I've spent my entire adult life assessing risks I should not have to (walking home alone at night, unattended drinks at bars, etc). This is actually less work.
Shows I don't take their view seriously little buddy. Hope one day you can understand social interactions! Maybe if you stop drinking yourself to death you can start learning.
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So what other threads on collapse have you engaged with? What aspects of collapse are you actually worried or curious about?
Just because you had covid with cold symptoms doesn't make covid a cold. Unless you actually think armies of scientists and the mass of research on its debilitating effect on a discomfiting number of people is "all made up"...
This kind of minimizing/ignorancr is in fact part of the collapse.
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Masking, but most won't do it.
Watching grown ass adults throw hissy fits over masking was quite hilarious. The easiest most direct deterrent to combat covid and most other respiratory viruses. It's given people ptsd flashbacks and is quite hilarious to me while I remain masked and have yet to catch covid.
How long would you propose we keep wearing masks for? I mean, those two years were great for my seasonal allergies and colds - didn't get any. But masking doesn't eradicate covid, it would just help slow the spread. Are you proposing we wear a mask our whole lifes?
Mask as long as the risk calculation says that makes sense to do. So yeah, keep doing it. If that's your whole life it's your whole life but that's just being dramatic and you know it.
Accusing masters for being dramatic is like accusing people who wear sunscreen at the beach of being dramatic.
It's actually more dramatic to make masking seem like this huge inconvenience...
I calculate risks and masking on a fun vs disease ratio. So I'll go to a nice restaurant or bar, unmasked (and choose less popular hours or sit outside if I can) But I really think getting infected because I'm unmasked in a packed Costco or a crowded bus is a stupid reason. So I mask in stores, pointless crowds. I mask at the theatre, but it had better be a great play. I've given up movie theaters because movies aren't worth it and weren't people giving up on theaters before the pandemic anyway?
But if everyone got boosted and masked most of the time, it would be even better across the board. I mean why not? The more everyone does the basics, the more we can all participate in pointless, collapse driven late capitalist consumption.
It's like traffic control. The vast majority of people waer seatbelts, stay sober and stop at the red light. A few won't and it's chaos when a critical minority doesn't. Before seatbelt laws and drunk driving laws, car accident rates and deaths were worse. Everyone just agreeing to participate in the basics (mostly thru law enforcement frankly) literally changed the risk for the better.
It's still relatively risky to drive, but it's less so because in the current world, driving is a necessity for most.
I really don't understand why it can't be the same for public disease management.
Why not? We wear all kinds of things like sunhats and sunscreen and helmets and bulky coats and gloves and snowboots... Etc. We wear all kinds of protective things for all kinds of reasons.
I don't understand why masks can't just be a part of that, esp in super crowded public spaces. Indoor spaces can use air filtration to offset less mask wearing.
For two years a majority of people just did it.
I just don't get how this is such a huge leap.
The world is just too lazy? Careless? Cynical? Tired of the whiners? (Who were a minority).
With the way we pollute the air and how bad its fucking us up along side covid. yeah man, until we change our conditions thats all we got.
https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/themes/air-pollution#:~:text=Almost%20all%20of%20the%20global,pulmonary%20disease%2C%20cancer%20and%20pneumonia.
Ha! I kind of agree! Everyone seems almost want to give it to you once they've had it and it's considered bad manners, even in my liberal provax 45+ circles, to even mention any problems that might ensue from getting it.
Zero precautions taken so when I do mention them I'm considered rude for reminding people it exists.
My LC friends won't post about their experiences remotely publicly because they're almost embarrassed about having proven the icky truth about covid. They feel shunned or patronized.
If this is indeed a bioweapon gone astray, promotion of carelessness might be a feature of the infection...
We still do. We get funny looks but who gives a shit honestly. It's normalized in other countries that when there's illness present masking is polite and neighbourly.
Exactly! Such a simple solution. Fighting covid requires layers. It's not just a one and done thing.
And strawmanning (we can't all just lock down again!) Isn't helpful.
All we've done is "flattened the curve" of covid related collapse. I fear for the adult health of current children, many of whom were unvaxxed, catching it repeatedly.
At least where I'm from. We barely see any ICU covid cases and just a few covid patients in hospitals. So not too bad. Your comment pretty alarmist, considering the average age of death to covid has gone up quite a lot since the start of the pandemic. A similar virus is infleunza which has about 500k deaths per year. So 1-2 million a year isn't too bad.
Now, I don't know the vaccination situation in non-western countries, but we can't really close up the entire world to save people from all illness. Living life is also important.
I recently had Covid quite badly, I got the initial 2 Covid shots and haven’t had any since, but Covid in 2022 and now 2024. It almost sent me to the hospital this time, but i agree with you. Now that they know how to treat it and actually have medicine for it; there’s no reason to shut things down. It’s no longer a novel virus.
No one is actually saying "shut things down"--most sane people argue that some basic measures are needed to reduce infection and spread in order to keep things OPEN. It's about consistent mitigation, management and reduction. But almost no one is even doing that...
These are
More routine N95 masking, especially in crowded public places
6 month vax/boosters for a majority
Better ventilation at school and work; UV use
Wfh policies
Sick day policies
Education about the above so radical.indiviualists, conspiracy theorists, and craven politicians don't get in the way
Even just these, on a large scale, would ramp things down so we can actually contune to live relatively "normally"...whatever that means to you.
May I ask where you are from? In most Western countries paid sick days are normal. And that kinda solves most of the issue. N95s in public is not necessary with COVID. You need to slow down, breathe and reflect over what you're proposing. Incredible amounts of trash and high costs for low gain. The vaccine doesn't stop the spread, so rightfully only the elderly and sick are recommended to take it.
Better ventilation is needed for more than disease so I can agree on that.
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Management class and up has paid sick days. Hourly workers get v few and often are unpaid. With multiple viral illnesses running amok on top of covid, more days are needed. I'm in a Western country.
I'm guessing you're a covid minimizer who didn't read the OP's article or are in denial so I'm not going to argue with you. Not sure why you're in collapse.
Check out the covid groups on reddit as well as on X...it's pretty bad. Even without ICU visits people lives are highly disrupted and long covid (which 2 of my friends have) is v destructive. Death or ICU aren't the only factors to be considered.
Vis a vis masking....big public indoor crowds is a higher risk, hence strategic masking. Like wearing a hat when it's cold. Or a bandaid over a cut. Just a standard protective measure.
You can see a lot of commenters in this thread dgaf either. A lot of minimizing, glib and patronizing "explanations" and outright denial.
I feel like it's low key brigading...I check their comment histories and they don't engage with collapse at all in any other context. The covid deniers and antivaxxers are relentless!
(I'm working on an editing deadline so naturally this discussion provides a fine source of procrastination!)
Here in BC they've been playing games with the numbers to lower the death count from covid.. they've been doing this for years now. "Get the fuck back to work" is the official policy.
Okay. That's the opposite of what I said. Personally, I have not encountered anyone sick with covid, let alone a covid death, in at least a year. If it doesn't affect my life at all, I won't walk around scared for my life over something I haven't seen in ages.
Okay if you want to live in fear go ahead. I have been living life care free about covid for the past few years, and I've never felt better. Feel free to live life.
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Even when closely tracked the numbers were around 30% higher than official estimates across the West, judging by deaths in excess of average fatalities.
I know of cases too where they didn't list covid as a cause, one guy died of diabetes officially, he had diabetes for decades and died right after he got covid.
Exactly. I knew a guy in his 20s who died of Covid. He had moderate asthma. So he went officially died of asthma, but it was the Covid that killed him. He could have lived til 100 with the asthma alone.
> Even when closely tracked the numbers were around 30% higher than official estimates across the West, judging by deaths in excess of average fatalities.
Source?
The Times, I could probably find one of the several they published but I don't think they still have the paywall carve-out for the covid coverage. I won't pay for a subscription since 2018 Israel coverage bs.
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/13/us/deaths-covid-other-causes.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/13/us/deaths-covid-other-causes.html)
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/23/us/covid-19-death-toll.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/23/us/covid-19-death-toll.html)
There's a bunch I read maybe three of them in 2020 the summary one listed last would be illuminating if not for the paywall I'm sure.
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8 million people doe each year from smoking. If society cared about saving lives we would have banned them ages ago. And processed food, fast food, and excessive sugar intake.
The difference of course is that - except for secondhand smoke - those things only harm or kill the person who is partaking in them. And with secondhand smoke, we have made large efforts to protect the general public from its effects. For example, is is very rare for indoor smoking in public places to be allowed anywhere in developed nations. But we have yet to take any efforts that could reduce people's exposure to covid in public places. And masks aren't the only way - increased air filtration requirements (hepa, uvc sterilization, minimum fresh air intake, etc) is another way to improve the situation.
I believe the COVID-19 meets the definition for endemic currently. That said, contracting it should be avoided, including flu shots, isolation when sick, and masking during outbreaks.
https://www.unc.edu/discover/covid-19-has-become-endemic/
> A pandemic is defined as outbreaks on three or more continents simultaneously. We have passed the pandemic phase, it’s safe to say, and entered what we call an endemic phase, meaning SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes the disease COVID-19, will stay in humans forevermore.
> We have had three epidemic coronaviruses — the original SARS in 2001, MERS and SAR-CoV-2. SARS (caused by SARS-CoV) was a pandemic in 2001 and we were able to eliminate it. We have MERS (caused by MERS-CoV) in the Middle East, which still exists in an endemic phase. We have SARS-CoV-2, also a pandemic, but now endemic. SARS-CoV-2 didn’t exist in humans before 2019, as far as we know.
> Four endemic coronaviruses have circulated in humans for hundreds to thousands of years, so this is now the fifth endemic virus. Like most respiratory viruses, I expect that we’ll see it wax and wane. It will increase in the fall, peak in early winter and then decrease in the spring. But you can get it all year round.
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https://www.unc.edu/discover/covid-19-has-become-endemic/
I believe the COVID-19 meets the definition for endemic currently.
> A pandemic is defined as outbreaks on three or more continents simultaneously. We have passed the pandemic phase, it’s safe to say, and entered what we call an endemic phase, meaning SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes the disease COVID-19, will stay in humans forevermore.
> We have had three epidemic coronaviruses — the original SARS in 2001, MERS and SAR-CoV-2. SARS (caused by SARS-CoV) was a pandemic in 2001 and we were able to eliminate it. We have MERS (caused by MERS-CoV) in the Middle East, which still exists in an endemic phase. We have SARS-CoV-2, also a pandemic, but now endemic. SARS-CoV-2 didn’t exist in humans before 2019, as far as we know. Four endemic coronaviruses have circulated in humans for hundreds to thousands of years, so this is now the fifth endemic virus. Like most respiratory viruses, I expect that we’ll see it wax and wane. It will increase in the fall, peak in early winter and then decrease in the spring. But you can get it all year round.
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----
> Common misconception; Covid19 is still in a declared pandemic, and at best will be episodically epidemic.
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This sub is slowly turning into /r/conspiracy. The fact no official institution talking about something like that and it's only mentioned in reddit is a strong case to diagnose this people with collective paranoia. The other thing is the overmention of long covid being an issue or even having it as an official repot anywhere.
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In terms of sheer numbers, yes, but as a percent of the population it's far from the same scale. Spanish flu killed between 2.7% and 5.4% of the population, which would be between 216mil-400mil with today's population.
30 million is still insane of course, not downplaying.
the war also played a large part in the spread of the Spanish Flu.
[Contrary to popular belief the 1918 virus - now known to be of the H1N1 strain - did not originate in Spain but rather in Kansas in the United States.](https://www.kumc.edu/school-of-medicine/academics/departments/history-and-philosophy-of-medicine/archives/wwi/essays/medicine/influenza.html)
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So far. It shows no sign of ending, nor does it exert obvious selection pressure on humans (kids dying, natural abortions, long-lasting infertility). COVID Aeterna.
The worst part is and this will sound heartless, is that 30 million deaths is a nothing burger. We can easily crap out more humans.
It's the underlying health problems that repeat infections are causing that is the real iceberg lurking in the background.
>It's the underlying health problems that repeat infections are causing that is the real iceberg lurking in the background.
This is highly underrated.
The wife and I got COVID over Christmas. Her mother went shopping all day Christmas Eve and brought it back into the house with her.
We both have gotten all our vaccinations and boosters. We both got Paxlovid as well. So we weren't too worried about how bad it would get.
We got over it quick enough, but have ongoing issues.
We both have extreme fatigue and shortness of breath. I'm talking about getting winded after walking 30 feet on level flat ground. Climbing stairs is like climbing mount Everest.
Just keeping up with the housework and such is hard work. Yesterday we ran a few errands from about 10am until 5pm. We got home and collapsed on the couch and both feel asleep without even meaning to.
We went from a healthy couple in our late 30s to functionally an old elderly couple.
Luckily for us, both of our jobs are office jobs and we haven't been mentally affected. So this doesn't affect our jobs or ability to earn a living.
I just hope it goes away eventually. Our doctors both basically said this could gradually get better and eventually clear up over the next several months. Or it could be permanent. It's too early to tell.
Relatable. I got covid three times over three years, each time taking nearly the entire year to recover. Now, at 34, I feel like I'm in my 40s or 50s. My energy and breathing is gone, dormant asthma back and demanding my constant attention. My focus and concentration is foggy and inconsistent, my body aches, I'm sick all the time (last year I had a sinus infection for 3 months straight despite antibiotics), it just sucks. It's as though my life was torn from me and I have to carry on in the living corpse that remains behind.
Not to i dot... but I'm 50 something. Most of my peers (fellow 40 and 50 somethings) aren't yet living corpses who suffer that badly from those things! Your symptoms sound like a 70 or 80 year old's. Covid is awful. The middle aged body isn't that bad for most people.
In any event I hope you find respite.
I've had long covid three times now. The first time was very early in the pandemic and last 18 months. The second time lasted just over a year. This last time i got covid the beginning of Dec and the prolonged symptoms (the trifecta of low energy, brain fog and memory deficit) only lasted a couple of months. It does get better. You can help the process along by eating healthy, getting lots of sleep and using supplements. I got my DNA testing done from Nutrition Genome which helped me dial in my diet and supplements. The low energy seemed to be a mitochondrial issue and i found that supplementing COQ10 (Ubiquinone) and Ubiquinol (both aid in the production of ATP) helped to bring my energy levels up.
There were a couple of hours in there where I was just waiting in the truck playing on my steam deck. While she was getting her nails done and her hair done.
Aside from that we went to the vet, dog groomers, a bakery, got lunch, dropped off some recycling and got an oil change.
Slowly is better than not at all! Stay strong. And, unlike most, at least you have a vestige of what's coming. Unlike most, where for them it'll leap out from the dark at them.
Yeah, and that's why we're starting to see it creep into the media.
The other factors of collapse, the resource wars demand an eventual response because rampant long covid will pants military effectiveness sooner or later.
Thing is, world population is on a precipitous decline so more babies isn't gonna happen unless things get super dystopia (some are trying but it's too little too late)
The disability is the true threat. Death is horrible of course, but at least it's counted.
We're looking forward to generations of adults with early onset dementia and a host of chronic health problems.
This. Doctors and Scientists began calling this a "mass disabling event" about 18 months ago.
They are not wrong. But then, we're going to be expected to support those who are / were careless enough to get infected repeatedly.
This is the best comment on this thread, thanks comrade. So many other comments talk about "but people are too selfish" or some other homo-economicus bs while ignoring the true basis for our ideologies which make preventing collapse unthinkable in the shadow of profit.
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I consider myself pretty fit and healthy. I got boosted this past fall. Just had a bout of COVID that knocked me on my ass. I'm on day 11 since my first positive test and I'm still getting chest PAIN, that as far as I can tell may be long COVID and have longer lasting effects. I can't be active like I'm used to, it sucks. COVID is still going on and still seems like there's a lot we don't understand about how it effects people.
Folks, please take it seriously. This experience has been a reminder for me to do so.
> that as far as I can tell may be long COVID and have longer lasting effects.
Long COVID is a diagnosis of exclusion and lingering symptoms after 3+ months. You don't have LC. Chest pain can be serious, please go see a doctor.
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People dying is sad and I feel for everyone who has lost a loved one.
The world population is almost 8 billion. To put this in perspective from purely a numbers standpoint, this is the equivalent of 3 people out of 788 dying.
This is reported deaths. China, India, and basically every other poor country is not reporting deaths or tracking/testing. This number is massively underreported. And also doesn't take into account those dying from Long Covid who are dying from chronic illness.
Did you even read the article? This is in the first paragraph.
> According to their projections, the cumulative global excess death toll now stands at 28.5 million, 4.1 times higher than the official COVID death toll, which surpassed 7 million at the end of 2023.
To my understanding, not nearly as many people are actively getting sick with the virus but the virus is **so much stronger** that it's a much more lethal threat overall.
The deaths? Expected. COVID is a nasty disease that can express itself in lethal infection on the regular. Those really aren't the serious damage, in the long term.
It's the ones COVID cripples, the long COVID victims that lose significant amounts of function that we should really be worried about. The ones who have to live, be cared for in terms of years, decades, lifetimes to come. COVID-19 is *very* good at causing long term damage, and that's a growing and massive drain on the populations those people live in.
There’s likely an nth number of infections that will result in death for any individual. We don’t know what it is for the majority yet but constant reinfections, 2-3 a year, will be worse than disability… and it may not take decades. Could be by 2030, who knows.
And that's my point. Death, societally speaking is one and done. Disability, long hospital stays, treating reinfection and other opportunistic diseases attacking a weakened immune system... that's sapping healthcare systems as well. General care quality declines. Staffing shortages. Burnout. COVID has a ripple effect.
The only COVID-19 deaths dashboard I've trusted since April 2021 was The Economist's. Why? Because they were the only ones that acknowledged India's death toll was 4M, *not* 300K. And they kept updating, even after other excess deaths monitoring stopped. In November 2023, they quietly stopped updating this dashboard, and the "last" tally (which many took to be "final") was 33.5M COVID-19 deaths.
Now The Economist has started updating [The pandemic's true death toll](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-estimates?fsrc=core-app-economist) dashboard once again.
The current global count for excess deaths presumed to be from COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 is **35.2M deaths.**
Excess deaths is relatively straight forwards as these things go. Cumulative cases, current cases & prevalence, current critical, recovered, long covid numbers are all much harder as they rely on official testing and reporting.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ and https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus summarise this official reporting so really can't be trusted any more. They both wildly underestimate the true picture.
I had such a bad reaction to the 2nd one that it's not something I should risk again they say but I'm also high risk because of health issues I already have so it's a hard call. I just mask up and stay away from socializing, use hand sanitizer like it's my new religion.
I have not gotten it again though I sometimes wonder why because I know people who have had it 3 times. I got it the first time when I was in a shelter and it was not fun. Fever, chills, a severe cold that lasted 10 days. First two days I threw up several times and had the runs besides. It was just exhausting.
But that last booster?
It was just hell. It set my autoimmune thing off so hard I was sick for months. My immune system just went into hyperdrive and I was just miserable. Might have fought off COVID but it made me miserable for months too...
Yep, mums the word here as well. Seniors have been dropping like flies at the local senior center but the workers are telling everyone not to tell anyone they have covid even when they’ve been hospitalized.
It’s ridiculous and out of control. People are amazingly stupid is the only conclusion i can come to.
“You know why I hate plagues? [...] Most disasters are fast, and big. You can see everyone else's life got overturned when yours did. Houses are smashed, livestock's dead. But plagues isolate people. They shut themselves inside while disease takes a life at a time, day after day. It adds up. Whole cities break under the load of what was lost. People stop trusting each other, because you don't know who's sick.”
I read the book this quote is from for the first time when I was about 11. But I haven’t ever been able to stop thinking about this quote, even when I never thought I’d see it come true.
It's over. Humans can't survive if they have to climb out of a cardboard box.
Just pack it in.
Disease-riddled corpses, all of us, by Tuesday.
A meteor could come thundering into any major city, and curious humans will go right up to the edge of the destruction to see if the red hot metal burns if you touch it. And then try to eat it.
>Wonder what could be causing these excess deaths, where the people are not infected with Covid.
At least some of it is long COVID (especially in people with pre-existing conditions like heart failure) and undiagnosed COVID.
This is anecdotal, but some doctors, for whatever reason, seem to want to avoid putting COVID on the death certificate if they can avoid it. A lot of hospitals seem more hesitant to test now as well, at least compared to how they used to.
I think a lot of people get COVID and never realize it. A lot of people just seem to say, "I always get a cold this time of year..." or get a false negative on a single rapid test right when the symptoms start and just assume they don't have it. Not long after, they develop a long COVID symptom, and they and their doctors never put two and two together.
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Oh look, the nazis deleting comments again. We must keep information quality high!! Only one viewpoint is allowed on this sub or it’s the gas chamber for you!!
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There is some research going into long COVID, such as the NIH's RECOVER study, but there are few definitive answers right now because COVID is still relatively new. With that being said, we do know some of the effects of COVID, such as its ability to cause clots and microclots that can damage the brain, heart, and lungs, among other possible damage mechanisms. This CDC page gives a brief overview of some of the information we have about long COVID: [https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html).
For example, let's say a patient gets COVID. The patient ends up getting what they and/or their doctor think is a "bad cold" or pneumonia and is never diagnosed with COVID. However, COVID damaged their heart, lungs, brain, ect. Then, a few days or weeks later, the patient begins to have signs and symptoms of a long COVID-type condition; perhaps the patient even dies; however, since they and their doctors have no record of the patient ever having COVID, it's never diagnosed as being long COVID or related to COVID.
I've been following this research for a while, that connects with immune suppression due to Igg4 class switch due to MRNA antigen load after 3rd vaccination : https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798. NIH has a similar article.
You are correct that there is some research showing there is an increase in IGG4 antibodies after repeated doses with mRNA COVID vaccines. What, if anything, this actually means is unclear, both for acute and long COVID. Science has a good article on the study you cited: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.adg7327
There is also this study that discusses the possible effects of the increase in IGG4 antibodies: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37243095/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37243095/)
It should also be noted that not all COVID vaccines cause this. For example, the IGG4 increase was not seen in the viral vector-based COVID vaccine.s.
More non-covid vaccines are now being planned using mrna, so we definitely need to make sure of this igg4 response as it can make our immune system more tolerant to basic diseases that we should easily be able to defend against.
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They are still grasping for theories last I heard. But it may have something to do with micro-clots in the blood. It affects the brain and harms other organ systems, it's quite odd really how widely it can harm people.
When I got it I felt these sharp stabbing pains in my lower abdomen for about ten minutes as I felt feverish when it first came on. Then it was just like the flue, 3 days it was bad but I didn't fully feel well or regain a full appetite for over a week.
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Talking about the actual culture of people being kicked out from society and jobs for doing/saying something thats not approved of by others or corporations. This has been called "cancel culture" for a while and still exists. It's a method of force to drive self-censorship.
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OK so where's that cancelling you were so scared of? Surely that article should have been scrubbed from the internet if there was some dire threat hanging over anyone who dared speak the truth, so where is it?
Ive had 6 posts removed from Reddit that contained that link. Waiting for mods to wake up.
Also, igG4 has been known from the 1960s, and popped up a lot in 2010s. Now a lot of scientists are talking about it, but bringing it up is dangerous to their careers as mrna manufacturers have a lot of legal clout. So lets see if they will pull through or if "long covid" will kill 30 million more through excess deaths.
Oh so you were never concerned about the scientists being targeted, you were only ever throwing a fit because you tried link spamming somewhere irrelevant and got banned for it.
Fuck off.
Before you run off, heres another link that explains Igg4 in mrna vaccinations and why boosted individuals better get that checked asap : https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798
We don't want any IgG4-Deniers running around.
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Finding out what new research says about why people are dying = unwarranted.
If the media started spamming the link, then it would be called a Public Health Awareness Campaign.
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How are the mRNA vaccines disastrous? I’ve had horrible reactions to each one I’ve had, some effects have been long term, nearly 3yrs now. I’m curious why they’re seen as disastrous.
> I’ve had horrible reactions to each one I’ve had, some effects have been long term, nearly 3yrs now. I’m curious why they’re seen as disastrous.
What are you talking about? How have you not just answered your own question? I mean... with respect, the cognitive dissonance here is insane.
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I know my personal experience isn’t shared by most that have had the vaccine. That’s why I’m curious about others experiencing things similar to what I did. Also, it’s validating to see something you experienced that others around you didn’t be taken seriously by medical journals and whatnot.
With respect…your comment is short-sighted and kinda rude.
> it’s validating to see something you experienced that others around you didn’t be taken seriously by medical journals and whatnot.
Well here is a 3.5 hour presentation from highly credentialed M.D.'s, PhD researchers, and other experts at the top of their field talking about the now CONFIRMED DNA contamination in the alleged mRNA "vaccines". Below the main body video is a breakdown by subject matter and presenter.
https://worldcouncilforhealth.org/multimedia/urgent-hearing-dna-contamination-mrna-vaccines/
From personal experience I can tell you with 100% certainty that people with negative testimonials in regard to the alleged vaccine and silenced on this platform in MANY sub reddits including virtually all the mainstream popular ones.
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No.
>The World Council for Health is a pseudo-medical organisation dedicated to spreading misinformation to discourage COVID-19 vaccination, and promoting fake COVID-19 treatments.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Council_for_Health
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[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/23/us/covid-19-death-toll.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/23/us/covid-19-death-toll.html)
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/13/us/deaths-covid-other-causes.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/13/us/deaths-covid-other-causes.html)
There's a bunch, these should summarize it well enough if you can get past the paywall.
Soft paywalls, such as the type newspapers use, can largely be bypassed by looking up the page on an archive site, such as web.archive.org or archive.is
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Early on it spiked, but you can see this recent, detailed video of this immunologist about excess deaths and his sources used for the data : https://youtu.be/Y7vTqEmlkvw
The times in the US and I forget who in Europe published excess deaths above the average every few months after the pandemic started. I read them when they came out, they were all around 30% higher both in Europe and the US.
The Times had a paywall carve-out for corona coverage because the pandemic, I won't patronize them anymore for the record because of reasons.
Soft paywalls, such as the type newspapers use, can largely be bypassed by looking up the page on an archive site, such as web.archive.org or archive.is
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Depends who you ask. Far left will claim it's unvaccinated Republicans. Far right will say it's from vaccinated individuals. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
[Your logical fallacy is middle ground](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/middle-ground)
> # middle ground
>
> ## You claimed that a compromise, or middle point, between two extremes must be the truth.
>
> Much of the time the truth does indeed lie between two extreme points, but this can bias our thinking: sometimes a thing is simply untrue and a compromise of it is also untrue. Half way between truth and a lie, is still a lie.
>
> Example: Holly said that vaccinations caused autism in children, but her scientifically well-read friend Caleb said that this claim had been debunked and proven false. Their friend Alice offered a compromise that vaccinations must cause some autism, just not all autism.
It sure doesn't, reality doesn't have the tiniest care about human political biases. We have a host of studies that show covid contributes to mortality from many sources long after the infection ends, and anyone interacting with the healthcare system regularly can see how it has deteriorated. When we decided to abandon a century of understanding on germ theory because it was inconvenient these outcomes were inevitable.
I dunno. I kinda wonder if fentanyl is being used to cull off people seen as less useful to society. Governments have always vilified drug users. Any drug user from pot to acid to opioid users. People who use drugs are generally people who don't fall in line and do as they are told. They are risk takers, independent thinkers, and have little respect for authority. They are not obedient and they influence others.
If you had to cull the heard, you might start there?
I’m not a doctor or anyone smart, but it seems like all the hiding away from people and isolating has lead to us having weaker immune systems. I’ve never had Covid but I also would get a cold maybe once or twice a year and that was it. Now, any time someone sneezes on me I could be out for a few days. Kind of interesting
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That comes to a measily 0.37% of our 8.1 billion population.
Covid was a flu, used as a power grab.
Wake up.
>"Steps:
30,000,000 ÷ 8,100,000,000 = 0.0037037037037037 = 0.37037037037037%*
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Had COVID before the vax was available. It was like a minor head cold. Got COVID *after* getting vaxxed, and it was way, way, way worse. I regret getting vaxxed, but at least it wasn’t an MRNA vax.
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COVID can affect you differently each time you get it. Had you not gotten the vaccine before your second time, it could’ve been much worse. But I don’t know, maybe you know better than doctors and scientists.
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China has completely covered up the actual amount of deaths from covid. It's at least in the 10"s of millions. There are satellite pics of mass cremations. If the actual count was known their government would collapse.
I understand we have to get on with life, but I wish people would at least do the minimum to try to minimize the spread, like wearing masks in crowded places. Also, employers being more understanding when people can't come in sick. But I guess those reasonable things are too much to ask for.
Better air filters also. If you look at the Davos meetings they had air filters everywhere. Between chairs in areas with audiences etc.
Better air quality helps reduce exposure. If it's good for them, it's good for us too.
Agreed. It's so all or nothing! There are a variety of things we can do to lessen the impact but somehow society (late capitalism?) has decided if we can't stop it in its tracks, we might as well give up. While still warning us to take precautions based on individual choice.
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Unlike us humans, Covid is never going away.
[Abrupt Climate Change, Nuclear Power and COVID 19. The Perfect Storm | Kevin Hester](https://kevinhester.live/2020/04/16/abrupt-climate-change-nuclear-power-and-covid-19-the-perfect-storm/)
This recent December, my 5 year old was hospitalized with Covid Pneumonia + RSV, he almost died. I also had both. We were put in an iso-ward with reverse pressure HVAC room but we had a roommate because there was a baby with the exact same diagnosis. When I brought up "what are the odds of another child having a Covid Pneumonia +RSV dual infection like us?" The doctor said that their inpatient has been full of kids with this combo and that children are dying of it with alarming frequency.
​
We got very lucky; my son almost was transferred to PICU and his oxygen was desatting so quickly we were worried that he would need a vent. He didn't crash that hard in the end and stayed in the standard pedi ward. We'd gotten him in to the hospital quickly because I had my own medical equipment at home so I could monitor his O2 sat / bpm / bp - catching his crash at the earliest moment. Kids decline quickly when it happens.
I await the times they get fed up of taking our money for tests and decide to deal with it and finally siren the public.
It’s not seasonal, by the way.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/SPY225:
---
Submission statement:
There are now **30 million** excess deaths globally. 👇
>https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&uniformYAxis=0&country=~OWID_WRL&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=new_cases_per_million&Metric=Excess+mortality+%28estimates%29&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false
This is confirmed by the Director of the World Health Organization
>"Almost 7 million deaths have been reported to WHO, but we know the toll is several times higher – at least 20 million." - Dr. Tedros, regarding deaths *up to* the end of 2022.
>https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing---5-may-2023
That's alot of people dying or becoming disabled by sequale. It would make covid-19 a 10x *super flu*.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1aiqle9/amid_fourth_winter_of_death_covid_excess_death/kow0kp1/
Submission statement:
There are now **30 million** excess deaths globally. 👇
>https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&uniformYAxis=0&country=~OWID_WRL&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=new_cases_per_million&Metric=Excess+mortality+%28estimates%29&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false
This is confirmed by the Director of the World Health Organization
>"Almost 7 million deaths have been reported to WHO, but we know the toll is several times higher – at least 20 million." - Dr. Tedros, regarding deaths *up to* the end of 2022.
>https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing---5-may-2023
That's alot of people dying or becoming disabled by sequale. It would make covid-19 a 10x *super flu*.
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