Is Portugal getting more and more unaffordable?
Posted by Appropriate_Farm5141@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 209 comments
A few months or even years ago, Portugal was presented as one of the cheapest countries to live in. But as I saw news headlines about American migrating to Portugal. I fear that it gets more and more expensive to live there over time. Most European countries are quite expensive to live in and if Portugal is joining this group, what other options are there available except for leaving Europe and going to another continent with more affordable countries there?
gigsope@reddit
It's expensive. You don't need to leave Europe but you need a job that can support the cost of living and Portugal doesn't have many of those. The entire younger generation without inheritance leaves.
Affectionate_Crow141@reddit
interesting. best answer.
octipuss@reddit
We considered moving there but eventually canceled everything . Yes Portugal is expensive, alternatives are Romania or Bulgaria which are similar to portugal in many ways, apart from sunny weatherđź‘Ť
Jpstacular@reddit
To anyone reading that: Keep in mind that Portugal is far more developed than either Romania or Bulgaria. Portugal is a developed country, those two aren't. Infraestructure is a lot worse in those countries, wages are much lower, etc.
octipuss@reddit
To be fair, there's not much difference. When is the last time you been to those countries?
oldjerseyy@reddit
Thanks
YakPersonal9246@reddit
Yes. I’m Portuguese but don’t live in Portugal anymore because it’s impossible to live with the local wages specially in Lisbon or Porto.
Some years ago you could find really nice houses for 150/200k euros, but now you can’t find anything “good” for that prices unless is a T1 (apartment with only 1 bedroom) or in specific and far away locations.
“Good” houses now there are in the range of 400-800k euros, which is absolutely insane when almost 50% of the population just gets 700 / 800 euros per month, PER MONTH. That’s not even 12k per year.
The housing crisis in Portugal is so insane that even people that have “good” salaries like 50k per year cannot afford those houses. Everything there is becoming more and more expensive as well.
Of course Americans that work remotely and have salaries of 200k per year it’s still a good and cheap place compared with New York, Los Angeles or San Francisco, but Portugal is becoming so expensive that even for other rich Europeans countries (like Germany or the Netherlands) it’s not “cheap” anymore.
Responsible_Camp_798@reddit
I am really impressed with your profile and personality. I also admire your good sense of humor here. I don't normally write in the comments section, but I think you deserve this compliment... I don't want to invade your privacy by sending a request without your consent. please add me as a friend. If you don't mind, thank you and stay blessed. Stay positive!!.
Moonagi@reddit
What is Portugal's long term solution now that this is problem has fallen on the country? Having a nation full of expats sounds very shitty, for the Portuguese especially...
Nero401@reddit
Mass emigration of the younger generation
Delicious_Fresh@reddit
That's a shame the young Portuguese are leaving. Do you know where most are going? I've met a few in Australia.
Zognorf@reddit
This is the way.
AlwaysKeepHydrated@reddit
We'll build more hotels, thus solving the problem once and for all.
But how will this increase hous-
ONCE AND FOR ALL.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
its madness this so-called ''housing crisis'' is happening all at once all over the world. Doesnt matter if it is Australia, Dublin or Portugal.
This is not a coincidence.
It's all by design. ''you'll have nothing and you'll be happy''
Delicious_Fresh@reddit
Don't forget New Zealand! We're extremely unaffordable too with rent and food costs that exceed our wages.
Daidrion@reddit
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." People just chase whatever benefits them, and that often leads to a race to the bottom.
I would also disagree that the housing crisis happens everywhere at once. It mostly affects developed western countries, especially the most desired locations.
phillyphilly19@reddit
Jesus, I hate conspiracy theories. It's not by design. It's by yet more poor fed economic management in the US and abroad. Flood the markets with practically free money, drive up housing prices, which then drives up the rental market. Now rates are high, but prices aren't collapsing because people keep buying out of fear. Anyone with any equity should stay put. And if you rent, rent as cheaply as possible and invest the rest. When this horrible bubble pops, it's gonna be a tsunami of misery.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
its not a theory if the masterminds behind Davos openly talk about that, buddy
keep dreaming
just to mention that the housing crisis is happening also in Eastern countries (Czechia, Poland etc)
phillyphilly19@reddit
Oh whatever.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
complacency, ignorance and basically living in denial are the foundations of why tyranny succeeded in the past.
phillyphilly19@reddit
Listen, I deal with what I can control. Anything else is an illusion.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
exactly I agree on that. This is why our only power lies in numbers. Everyone doing what is right, not what the ''elites'' will push onto us.
phillyphilly19@reddit
I agree. The problem is the setting of a collectively blind consumerist society which has become increasingly superficial in nature. I'm a boomer that has avoided a lot of those pitfalls, but does involve some "sacrifice " (i.e. avoiding/eliminating debt, saving aggressively, not constantly upgrading my car or house, etc). I put that in quotes bc there's no real sacrifice when you have all your basic needs met. The real conspiracy is less about Davos and more about a culture that focuses on acquisition rather than preservation: of assets, and of self.
Quagga_Elder@reddit
Boomer here too. I've made same/similar choices. It's only Trump et. al. that made me think about trying to live somewhere safer. And cheaper, if possible. Here our growth economy is hyper-valued. I'd like to live where there's a more stable economy and perhaps even a more fair economy.
phillyphilly19@reddit
I've looked at some options, but when you add the costs and tax situation, for me, it doesn't make sense. My loan 8s to spend a couple months each in the places I love, for now Italy and maybe Mexico. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Plus Trump aside, few places are fair or truly stable politically these days.
spiritsarise@reddit
Oh, oh. Deep state plant. Sound the alert. ConSpir 4.
dunzdeck@reddit
"The masterminds"
Hahahaha
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
I know... ;)
but hey. We are here, they are there. They must be doing something right.
Mad4it2@reddit
As an example, Ireland has a massive housing shortage, and the population is increasing by a large number each year.
There is no bubble to pop as it's a simple case of supply and demand. There is only a small amount of houses available to buy and an even smaller amount available to rent. It will be years before this is solved as we cannot build quickly enough.
SJP26@reddit
Whatever supply and demand that you are saying can be simply sorted by a change in government policy. Corporations should not be allowed to buy residential properties and reduce tax on rental income are few examples. All of a sudden you will have plenty of houses in the market making houses more affordable. However, the issue is that ppl went and bought houses due to panic at an unaffordable price, so when the market corrects, there will be a lot of losers in the housing market. So it's a catch-22 situation. Eventually, the market has to correct if there is no government intervention because a point will come when ppl can't afford mortatage payments due to unemployment or layoff which we are seeing now because of poor performance of business. Consequently, it leads to a market crash. The issue is that no one can predict the timing of a market crash. Take home message is don't buy overpriced houses assuming that the value of the house will keep increasing. What goes up has to come down!
_X_marks_the_spot_@reddit
Are you Canada?
phillyphilly19@reddit
Yes, that's a completely separate issue.
Appropriate_Farm5141@reddit (OP)
I agree, don’t quote on me this but I think third world countries in South America, Africa or South East Asia (Philippines/Thailand/Vietnam) are still affordable, at least for now.
RothIRALadder@reddit
There's no benefit to bringing braindead doomer conspiracies into this.
GZHotwater@reddit
There was an excellent post a couple of years ago from a Portuguese lady explaining how the golden visas were pushing locals out due to the increase in housing prices caused by an inrush of foreigners with high incomes/pensions. I really don’t think the Portuguese government considered this when they started the schemes.Â
Adi-Gill@reddit
While the Golden Visa program has ended, the D7 program has attracted many foreigners to the country. However, starting from January, the government implemented changes to the D7 program, removing tax benefits for foreigners. It seems now the government is acting up not sure if it's too late though
No_Conversation3807@reddit
its not just Golden Visa,you can settle down pretty easy in Portugal if you are from the EU,must EU countries also dont have double taxation.So someone who works for a German company earing 2800 euros for example,can easily settle down in Portugal if that person is working remote.The problem is that 2800 may be a good salary in Germany but its an outrageous salary in Portugal.So no,its not just Americans,its everybody,just last year it entered Portugal 30% of our total emmigrants(IN 1 YEAR!!!).If you want an example,I received an offer for 1500euros in the south of Portugal,1500 its a good salary here,however Im not from the south so I would need to move.The location is a small city,however you cant find a place lower than 1000 next to it(45 minutes drive)so if you put 1500+100 for gas+100 for food +100 for water/eletricity etc,look how much it remains,however someone from other country that wins 3000 euros monthly can pay that appartment easily so why would the landlords lower the rent if they know someone can pay it regardless if its Portuguese or not
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
The cancellation of NHR is not directly related to D7 visas. It will affect everyone moving to Portugal on whatever visa they move with if they're were eligible for NHR, though you're right, it does affect D7s.
rmadsen93@reddit
There have only been around 13,000 Golden Visas issued over the entire lifetime of the program. It’s hard to see how this could be a major factor in the high housing costs in Portugal. I think it has more to do with the number of AL units and the number of uninhabited (and uninhabitable) buildings all over the place.
Simco_@reddit
Listen bro, some random uneducated lady found a scapegoat and by God I'm going to believe her because I know even less than she does.
MausisCookin@reddit
So funny!
Fancy_Plenty5328@reddit
Yes I just saw this video that goes into factors like AL units, migration patterns into cities,
bowoodchintz@reddit
Exactly. I think it’s easy to blame the rich Americans flocking to Portugal, but the numbers don’t lie. No way that 13,000 visas plunged the whole country into a housing crisis.
godlovesayterrier@reddit
When we lived there (recently), it was rich Portuguese buying up everything as investments or to cash in on the Airbnb craze driving up the prices (like in lots of places in Europe). Houses are stupidly expensive though. That's the main reason we left
Techters@reddit
Portugal issued less than 13,000 Golden Visas in the history of the program, and people think that wrecked the economy of a country of 10 million people.Â
Professional_Ad_6462@reddit
In the initial iteration of the golden visa the easiest qualification was to purchase a home that in an urban area( in other words where most educated foreigners and locals wanted to live) had to be valued at 500k.
Now you can make the claim a lot of 425-450 homes were now worth 500k.so prices on the higher end were driven marginally higher. However with 70 percent of the population making between the minimum wage and 1,400 per month you can make the claim not to many Portuguese could afford these homes to begin with. And remember in the entire length of golden visa by home investment scheme only approximately 12k visa were issued. And back in 2010-12 and western recession the house I purchased beautiful home near a nature reserve stood empty three years, there were no buyers. What happened during this time was 1. the advent of short term rentals. 2. Inheritance laws based on the old napoleonic codes with 5-6 individuals inherit a home and everyone has to decide what to do with it. 3. A country that believes tourism and canned fish can create jobs( it can just not well paying) and the other service jobs like in many countries could not compete with union industries of which Portugal had little. Like South Korea much local wealth Was in the hands of 400 or so wealthy families that went back century. This money is in Zurich and Malta.
So the Solution even pushed by the government was to not try to create wealth where investment opportunities are hampered by inefficient government and a legal system slower than an elephant and create a remittance economy like the Philippines where nurse moves to California and makes 10k a month not 800.
Elon Musk was considering a large battery plant in Portugal but I bet it only took five Portugese educated engineers to tell him to stop playing with there retirement 401k funds like that.
Does it not seem odd that a country with an educated workforce, low salaries close to the rest of Europe could not develop? At the end of the iron curtain Polands GDP was roughly the same as Portugal’s in 1990. It is now 4 times greater.
To the north of Lisbon there is plenty of land that homes for moderate income people could be built. But this could only happen with tax incentives, investment income and pressure on the big builders most Portuguese would recognize some of those family names.
Through out history Europe has always had scapegoats for there issues. It’s easy to project onto others when the problem really is much closer to home.
In my little shopping mall there are now many of those phone and computer repair small businesses. Most all of the workers are now Ukrainian. Many fruit pickers and agricultural workers are not Portuguese and live multiple people to a room and minimum wage pay very little or zero in come tax.
However all the problems of the country can be placed squarely on retired Nordic, Northern European or Americans? That’s a pretty poorly thought out and factually incorrect reasoning. I find Portugal is a country that has a very hard time in accepting their own economic predicament.But who knows maybe Portugal will be the first in making a social welfare, statists economy, without the tax base to do significant wealth transfer to work simply there not Sweden, but I have to admit they have not given up.
CheeseWheels38@reddit
How many Golden Visas were issued vs the number of old Europeans retiring there with their relatively high savings/pensions?
rvgirl42@reddit
The Brits made Portugal expensive way before the Americans.
Hour-Preference4387@reddit
Lot of Brits buying here in Germany as well which I find funny cause their cities are actually cheaper than ours (outside of London), but when I mention that they are like "yeh but who the fuck wants to live in Liverpool/Newcastle/?"
godlovesayterrier@reddit
And the French, Italians, Belgians, Brazilians... Etc.
SEF publishes immigration numbers every year and Americans are a drop in the bucket compared to other countries.
That said, houses there are stupidity expensive, especially for what you get. It's cheaper to buy in France, Spain, or Italy.
minominino@reddit
And salaries do not seem to be rising in Portugal. I saw a post recently comparing European countries’ salaries from 2013 vs 2023, something like that. Portugal’s salaries had not risen much, compared to salaries in Slovakia, Romania, Czech Republic, Spain, etc.
modijk@reddit
Minimum wage went from 560-ish in 2016 to 780 2 years ago. Next to that, a lot of well-paid IT jobs have been created. Salaries are absolutely rising.
minominino@reddit
Ok. That’s great then.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
MotorHot4318@reddit
Portuguese people that have high educational backgrounds(bachelor's, Master's, PHD's) are migrating to other countries so they can dream of a life without constant financial burden, leaving everyone and everything behind, a lot of times so they can help people that stay in our own country (parents, grandparents, siblings, etc..). Be a little bit more conscientious when writing this type of posts please.
Rough_Tax_5579@reddit
Yes it is, but still it is better compared to other places.
Apprehensive-Cap6063@reddit
It is true Americans are ruthlessly driving up the prices but mostly in Lisbon and Porto. Other parts of Portugal are still affordable. Unfortunately the govt isn’t keeping a check on these investments by non-EU individuals thanks to the golden visa and other such initiatives. It will soon become impossible to buy houses in Europe thanks to the local greed and rich countries such as the US where people earn easily twice if not more for white collar jobs
ConsciousGreenPepper@reddit
Do you know why the government won't do rent control or something? You can't stop immigrants from coming, but maybe some sort of affordable housing option is the answer?
AdmirableSelection81@reddit
Rent control is a stupid policy. Just build more housing.
unsamendoins@reddit
The government should provide affordable housing and rethink taxes. Private properties are private for a reason. The government has no reason to interfere to the point of controlling rents. They already get ridiculous amounts via taxes.
frugalacademic@reddit
Give it a few years until those US corporations are going to pay their staff in digital nomad countries the local wage instead of the US wage. Some companies are already differentiating between California wages and other cheaper places.
Apprehensive-Cap6063@reddit
So many employees are faking their IP addresses
sharinganuser@reddit
How do you do this when you're given a company computer?
unsamendoins@reddit
VPN
sharinganuser@reddit
Yeah but in my experience, most computers have tons of blocks on them. Many of them require you to use their own VPN to access their intranet.
unsamendoins@reddit
Yes, depends on the company’s policies.
Apprehensive-Cap6063@reddit
/digitalnomad
unsamendoins@reddit
I’m Portuguese and live abroad. I’m not a digital nomad. But for all the workplaces I’ve worked at, only one of them required people to register in the company’s VPN. It does depend on company’s policy.
Also, plenty of places let you relocate to a different country and stay on the same salary. They change your contract to a local one. They already have the budget to pay you, they can’t justify decreasing your salary just because you’re relocating to a LCOL area. It’s very common in my industry, IT. I can’t speak for other industries.
Moonagi@reddit
Not sure why you're being downvoted, this does happen a lot.
Apprehensive-Cap6063@reddit
People who are downvoting have never left their town
Moonagi@reddit
A lot of them are freelancers or work at startups iirc
frugalacademic@reddit
Yeah but if their clients see that they live in a cheap country, they will want to pay less. And when the freelancers get paid less, they will not stay in Portugal for long .
RexManning1@reddit
Most of them don’t even allow their employees outside of the U.S. These people are predominantly hiding their location or are business owners.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
Then they'll "live" in America and work from holiday.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
I mean, is it? There are 10k Americans in a country of approaching 10 million.
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
I'd go along with insufficient construction and crazy inheritance laws. Most EU countries (and the UK) have reciprocal health arrangements at least for their older population, though it does need to be much more rigorously enforced or private insurance required.
Defiant-Dare1223@reddit
What do you mean by crazy inheritance laws?
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
As I understand it and as it's been explained to me, all the legal heirs are entitled to a portion of an estate. That can mean that a property is left, divided between a family with each owning a portion of the property. So if x wants to sell they have to convince y and z to sell too. And if z has emigrated or incapacitated or otherwise not available or amenable to a sale, then all that can be done is to "sit on" the property until all can agree. Hence lots of run down , ramshackle buildings. I think I've heard the government is trying to bring in a law which means they can take over some of the properties and bring them back for social housing which would be good. A friend of mine was telling me the same thing happens in Italy too - partial shares in an estate I mean not the government taking over property.
VanDenBroeck@reddit
Yeah, that amounts to a whopping one-tenth of one percent of the population being Americans. That seems rather small to me.
bowoodchintz@reddit
Ahh yes, all 10k of the Americans in a country with nearly 10 million are ruining it for everyone else.
emeaguiar@reddit
Yes, like every other place with lots of “expats”
zia_zhang@reddit
I’m surprised the Portuguese government weren’t able to predict this. I believe this is why western european countries have made it difficult to get this type of visa. Also many of those going to Portugal don’t intend to stay for the long run it’s sometimes acts as an entry point to the EU.
Daidrion@reddit
Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of people (most?) in governments are not that skilled or qualified, and every now and then have to make decisions beyond their area of expertise.
themarquetsquare@reddit
This is not unique to Portugal. Like, at all.
I keep seeing this posts about housing crises in cities all over the world and everybody trying to figure out what local policies are the cause of it.
There are a couple of things all these countries have in common and I am willing to bet the big one is 'years of extremely cheap money for global investors'.
zia_zhang@reddit
Yes I’m aware, I mentioned Portugal due to the OP. This situation fuels the global COL crisis for Portugal.
OnlineDopamine@reddit
Exactly. The problem is allowing foreign real estate investment. Just look at cities like Vancouver being taken over by Chinese investors
adowjn@reddit
spoiler: portuguese government is dumb. source: am portuguese
rep4me@reddit
You clearly have not been paying attention. Portugal peaked approximately 7 years ago when it was a well kept secret. Now its all rich Californians and Chinese golden visa holders buying up all the houses.
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
There are a total of 10,000 immigrants from the USA and 22,000 from PRC, this pales into insignificance when you look at the lusophone countries, the EU (and UK) and Asia (ecl China). I'm happy to blame the USA and China for lots of things but I don't think this is down to them even if certain USA-based immigrants make a lot of noise about their disdain for the country and culture (while still remaining here).
peji911@reddit
I get what you're saying, and many say the same things, but it really doesn't matter how many live there, but what they buy.
For example, major cities in Canada skyrocketed in prices because Chinese millionaries/billionares were buying whole buildings, streets, etc. My wife's aunt bought a house for less than 500K in Toronto.
I think that's the biggest issue worldwide: people are buying house/building with no intent on living there and driving prices up.
Sharklo22@reddit
The US is just one rich origin country and AFAIK by far not the most represented. Many more French and Brits, and Germans to a lesser extent. See for instance https://eurocid.mne.gov.pt/artigos/imigracao-e-emigracao-em-portugal, the US doesn't make it to the top 10 foreign born residents. Also people invest foreign money without residing in the country.
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
That's actually what I said. I was answering the poster that said it was rich californians and people from PRC.
Delicious_Ad_9365@reddit
Property purchase no longer qualifies you for the Golden Visa.
Tabitheriel@reddit
The whole planet is becoming unaffordable due to the global recession caused by two years of lockdowns, supply chain problems and the wars that followed. Wake up, people.
peji911@reddit
And other reasons....
T-BONEandtheFAM@reddit
Both Spain and Portugal
alitoch@reddit
I'm sorry but that's just not true. As much as it boggles the mind, Spain is still way more affordable than Portugal.
Missmoneysterling@reddit
I just don't get how you can still get your social security check if you have to give up your citizenship. That's the only reason I'm not looking at Spain. I fucking love Spain. When I was just there I even had a Spanish guy suggest that I move to Spain because everyone there is happier than in the US.
bowoodchintz@reddit
Why do you think that you have to give up your social security benefits?
hornydecisions@reddit
is there merit to that worry?
bowoodchintz@reddit
None
Missmoneysterling@reddit
Doesn't Spain make you drop your other citizenship?Â
Sufficient_Mirror_12@reddit
Not everyone in the US is miserable. Let's not make a sweeping generalization of a very diverse country with over 330 million people.
TropicalBound111@reddit
Wait really? Spain? How much are the average houses in Madrid and Barcelona?
What extra values does Spain offer over Portugal?
(I’ve been thinking about moving to Spain!)
Mediocre_Piccolo8542@reddit
The main upside is that Spain is the more developed country. Better infrastructure. Things work just better. You order something per amazon? It arrives without problems. Portugal is very different in comparison. The mild Mediterranean climate is also better than the windy Atlantic, but that's just my opinion.
Leave the hotspots, Alicante and Murcia are way more affordable than Algarve. There are many affordable spots in Spain, sure it offers also villa communities like Marbella which are crazy expensive, but there are choices for every pocket along the coast and within the country.
Portugal is also cool, but for different reasons e.g better taxes and better migration laws.
TropicalBound111@reddit
Thanks for the input!!
Wow, I should be glad that when I majored in Computer Science, I took elective Spanish courses for 4 semesters (and got A+ each time :)). May be those courses will end up bring useful for me after all :-)
So Spain’s weather is even better than Portugal’s then?
Would you recommend Ibiza? How about Tenerife? (Some people might say they’re too touristy, but I don’t mind. In fact I love busy, crowded, vibrant places and can’t stand quiet ones ;))
I have a wife and a 1,5 year old baby though. Which Spanish cities are great for families?
Mediocre_Piccolo8542@reddit
Portugal can be quite windy, even in Summer. The Atlantic ocean is really really cold. In Spain you can choose between places next to the ocean like Cadiz or Galicia, so it would be similar to Portugal, or the ones on the Mediterranean sea like Valencia, Alicante, Ibiza etc. Those places have a really good mild weather, even in winter, although the summer can get quite hot.
Tenerife is beautiful, but I think the real estate market is pretty poor there - many old buildings and quite expensive. The upside for some people - it is vibrant all year long because a true off-season doesn't exist there, while the coastal cities in continental Spain can get quiet in off-season, and certain businesses close right away during winter.
I don't know much about Ibiza, all I can tell that Balearic Islands are one of the most pricey regions, together with Madrid, Catalonia, and Basque Country.
Any bigger city and its proximity is good imho. Especially coastal cities in the south offer a lot English speaking infrastructure like bilingual schools. I would avoid anything truly rural though, there is a problem with illegally constructed homes in rural Spain
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
Alicante also has the most hours of sunshine in Europe
Moonagi@reddit
No.
FoxIslander@reddit
EVERYWHERE is more expensive...add a big influx of expats into an area even more so. I live in central Mexico...since Covid prices have gone up way here too.
Appropriate_Farm5141@reddit (OP)
And I think the wave of American expats that are migrating to your country won’t help real estate either
CluelessExxpat@reddit
A bit insane people are blaming Americans. What is the number of Americans in Portugal that benefit from income tax incentives? 10k? In a country of 10 million, 10k people are enough to distort the entire housing market? Get real people...
ZaGaGa@reddit
100k NHR in 1M imigrants the last few years.
Americans are not the biggest group by far, but very important in the last year with significant impact in keeping fuelling houses prices despite prices been falling in Europe.
Also important to take into consideration that each expats transaction means 1 house out of the market, while locals most often change one house for another having zero impact in house pool availability for transaction. The consequence is that's new construction cannot refill the pool and so the number of house transactions falls while prices remains high. That's the current situation, real estate agents loosing jobs, despite the absurd prices.
Delicious_Ad_9365@reddit
Brazilians and Indians are coming in far far greater numbers than Americans, who are near the bottom of the list. But it seems Americans are, rightly or wrongly, very much disliked these days.
netolokao@reddit
And do you think that Brazilians and Indians are coming here with money to pay for the insane housing prices?
Get a reality check, it's not only Americans, but trying to blame this on Brazilians and Indians has to be one of the most oversimplified and misleading narratives in the discourse about housing affordability.
Clean-Degree-9632@reddit
Easy there racist. The portuguese people are poor too but they aint sleeping on the streets.
Its Simple economics, a sudden and sharp Spike on demand with little to no increase on demand leads to and increase on prices
oldjerseyy@reddit
When he was racist lmao
netolokao@reddit
As a Brazilian living in Portugal, surely I'm racist with a comment that depicts the reality of the housing situation.
Clean-Degree-9632@reddit
Sure you are. If you were a brazillian immigrant you would know that most have the same wealth as the average portuguese. Most portuguese struggle to afford rent which os no diferente with brazillian immigrants. Besides, wealthy immigrants mostly effect the pricing off already expensive housing on wealthy neighborhoods. Thos dont master, they were always unaffordable. The problem os the low and Middle class houses which Saw their pricing sky rocket and its precisely on those houses that most brazillian and Indian immigrants are living.
Smog2747@reddit
Yes. When they cram 12 ppl in bunk beds with each paying €200 per month, then yes. They’re probably worse than rich Americans when it comes to affordability and quality of life
Delicious_Ad_9365@reddit
Just talking about sheer numbers. Demand is demand, and that drives up housing prices.
Brazil (233,138) United Kingdom (36,639) Cape Verde (35,744) India (34,232 Italy (33,707) Angola (30,417) France (27,614) Ukraine (26,898) Romania (23,967) Nepal (23,441)
https://www.portugal.com/news/immigrant-population-in-portugal-increases-to-750000/#
netolokao@reddit
Yeah. Brazilians are renting bedrooms on the outskirts of town because rent is so expensive in the city center.
Except one of the groups has enough money to pay whatever the landlord asks, thus increasing the average rent, and the other is forced to share an apartment with 4 other people
Delicious_Ad_9365@reddit
Fair enough, but it is a complex myriad of causes, and cumulatively it all adds up. And, as someone just posted above, this is not a crisis unique to Portugal. This is a global problem that stemmed, in part, from cheap money, and an also an investor mentality to park foreign sourced earnings into real estate all over the world.
Just one example, after the return of Hong Kong to the Chinese from Great Britain in 1999. The Vancouver, BC market was subsequently deluged with money from people leaving Hong Kong with their wealth and entering the Canadian market with what was their version of the Golden Visa, to the point that the locals there were long ago priced out of the market, unless they were in that market before the early 2000’s.
Appropriate_Farm5141@reddit (OP)
Sorry if i came across as blaming Americans as I didn’t particularly intended to. I just noted there was an influx from the US but other countries sure are contributing to this too.
Function-Over9@reddit
You can try to downplay the numbers but "wealthier" people migrating has a different kind of impact that hurts the middle and upper-middle class of a place - which in reality is going to be the more heard part of society.
The locals in this bracket have good jobs that used to afford them good lives in attractive parts of the city. Now they are being forced out by people working call center jobs from their laptops that only earn "more" because of salary arbitrage. It's only human nature for resentment to build, and I'm sure we'd all be doing the same thing if we were in their shoes.
These people have a fair argument and their voices deserve to be heard. Maybe only by raising their voice can they cause their government, who obviously has the real power, to act. What's wrong with speaking up against something that is clearly an imbalance?
Sharklo22@reddit
Americans are not the only expats, in fact I'd say they're the minority. Among the rich nations, the French, Brits and Germans are much much more common than Americans. There's even a French, German and British school in Lisbon... (operated by their respective countries)
YakPersonal9246@reddit
Imagine that 10k super rich people enter a city and start buying all the expensive houses. The market sees that and because it’s making good money with expensive houses they start increasing the prices of every house on that specific city.
That’s what happened in Lisbon, as long as short term rentals like Airbnb that made the market even crazier and expensive. Then the same fate repeated on Porto and Algarve.
ZaGaGa@reddit
Could you share some of those headlines please?
Sharklo22@reddit
It's mainly not Americans, you can see the origin countries of foreign residents e.g. here https://eurocid.mne.gov.pt/artigos/imigracao-e-emigracao-em-portugal
Traditionally, in Lisbon, it's been the French and other rich continental Europeans and, in the Algarve, more the retired Brits.
A telling fact is Lisbon has old (and prestigious) international schools of these countries. The German school has been around since 1848 (!), the French school since 1907, and the British school (St Julian's) since 1932. There is also an American school since the 50s, honestly I didn't know.
Anyways, my point is Lisbon has always been cosmopolitan, and the Americans are by far not the most represented as far as people from rich nations go.
From what I can recall, the housing bubble started with the massification of tourism, which as been much more prevalent than any digital nomadism or outsourcing to Portugal (which also exists, there are companies hiring foreign nationals in Portugal because they can pay them more than local but still less than origin country wages).
To give a chronological reference, a single teacher's salary could afford a 3 room \~70m\^2 apt in Lisbon in the late 90s early 2ks. Now you'd need a whole classroom's worth of engineers or lawyers 🤣
For instance these tuk-tuks you see everywhere, there was not a single one in the city some 15\~20 years ago. Lisbon had always been somewhat touristic but Airbnb and low-cost airlines have brought it to another level (in fact I may be misremembering but Terminal 2 is an addition from that period -> I checked, yes, from 2007). Hotels also bought in, of course, but I think the reactivity of the market thanks to Airbnb must have contributed a lot to the rapid growth. Some of the bigger hotel projects only happened once tourism was already firmly established.
I don't know Algarve very well but I'd wager the problems they have there precede those in Lisbon & Porto, as the region had been massively touristic for a while.
Techters@reddit
Thank you for making a post that actually makes sense. What has happened all over popular tourist destinations in Europe is locals sold out to rental groups and house flippers, took their money and ran, and now there's no 'cheap' housing stock in these places other people are now disappointed they missed the rush. Then local business raised all their prices for people who don't speak the local dialect, so they're paying $5 for a croissant because they didn't order in Portuguese.
Sharklo22@reddit
Yeah, the economics were really stacked against Portugal...
Minimum salary that many people earn has always been half or so of what you get even in France, notoriously not a country with high salaries. With trivially cheap plane tickets, the country became accessible to a pool of 100M+ people with tremendous purchasing power compared to the Portuguese.
Now add in Airbnb enabling particulars to rent a room in their apt, and suddenly it became more interesting to rent a room or two for a few days a month than the whole apt to a local on a yearly basis, adding on top the issues of renter protection, which are not a topic when it comes to renting to tourists.
Once Airbnb became engrained in people's traveling "methods", professionals moved in, buying or managing apartments. Some people buy apartments and have them managed by specialized companies.
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Rich Brazilians too, especially after Bolsonaro won.
wanderingdev@reddit
if you don't need to live in a big city/tourist center, there are many areas all over europe that are very affordable to live in. including in portugal. but most of what you year is about lisbon, porto, and the algarve. there's a lot more to portugal than those areas.
YakPersonal9246@reddit
Because those places are the only ones that have good infrastructure, hospitals nearby and cultural events. You can live in Évora but everything is far away and almost zero public transportation. Few events as well compared to Lisbon or Porto.
wanderingdev@reddit
everyone has different things they value. i'm just tired of everyone equating expensive cities with an entire country. saying there's nowhere to live in europe that isn't expensive is just flat wrong. saying there's nowhere you want to live in europe that is in your budget could be right depending on your personal needs. me? couldn't pay me to live in lisbon or porto or really any of the big cities. just not remotely what i want. thankfully other areas are inexpensive and i'll be able to buy land and build a home for dead cheap.
fuckyou_m8@reddit
If you have a remote job then that's OK, other than that you are almost bound to go to a big city
wanderingdev@reddit
Or commute to a big city. Just depends on location. I saw some property the other day for sale that needs some reno but it was sub $50k and a 45 minute direct train ride to central paris. that's not a terrible commute and not excessively expensive.
Lord_Ewok@reddit
I would also say depends on where in Paris and how long it takes to get to that station.
For example,It takes 15-20 minutes to get to the station and another 15-20 to get from central paris to your work place. The total commute is now possibly 85 mins 170 mins round trip.
wanderingdev@reddit
Sure, nothing works for everyone, but it was just an example, not a recommendation.
unsamendoins@reddit
Exactly, most cities in the coast between Lisbon and Porto have just as many resources as the big two and are a lot more affordable.
Future-Classic-8035@reddit
Look, it’s simple. People want to live in desirable places however each person defines it. Most (not all so don’t go crazy on me) people want to live where housing, health care, opportunity to build a secure financial future and personal safety is highest. Retirees want affordability, nice weather, things to do until their health goes then they want family and good health care. The pieces on the chess board are constantly moving. Places stay cheap because no one wants to live there- at least not long term or at some great risk. The places in the US considered cheap to live are cheap because QOL is terrible. People will never have everything they want/ need at the right time in the right place.
PerunLives@reddit
I don't know much about Portugal, but many Central European and Balkan countries are still relatively cheap by Western standards and thus a good option if you still want to stay within the EU but live in an affordable country.
YakPersonal9246@reddit
“Affordable country” only if you work remotely receiving salaries from the US or rich countries. The local salaries are so low that those countries are not affordable for the locals. That’s why there’s a lot of people from these countries that live in the UK, Nordic countries or anywhere cold but richer, because they can’t afford to live there as locals.
PerunLives@reddit
Yeah, of course. No one is questioning that. If you're moving to these countries as a native English speaker, or as a native speaker of an important Western language + highly proficient in English, then you're very unlikely to end up working at the local salary level. Even someone with zero skills can teach English or French or whatever else as a native speaker and earn more (in terms of local purchasing power) than they would working as a store clerk somewhere in a more Western country.
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
If you're going to be in an EU country for more than the 90/180 Schengen allowance, you'll need a visa that will allow you to work in that country. Just "hey I can speak English" isn't going to get you that visa. You'll need to show you can provide for yourself and not be a burden on the state before getting that visa. You'll also be competing with a sizable chunk of the population who are also fluent or nearly fluent in English and who can also speak their native language
PerunLives@reddit
It's not that difficult to get a visa.
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
Some countries are easier than.others but if you're from outside of the EU you always have to prove you can pay for yourself and have medical cover and accommodation and even then not all (most) short-term visas allow you to work or heavily restrict what you can do. It's just something that if it was me, I'd look into some detail before assuming I could rock up and pick up a job (legally).
alitoch@reddit
To make it simple: look elsewhere. Portugal is very expensive for the value you get, there are way more interesting and affordable places in Europe (with better infrastructure), such as Spain to only mention one. It's way past its prime for anyone who isn't super rich, even europeans from richer countries who moved to Portugal struggle nowadays.
rep4me@reddit
Spain would be great if it wasn't so highly taxed. I always wondered why everyone is rushing to Portugal now. You can get much more for your money in Spain and its better in all metrics.Â
alitoch@reddit
Portugal just killed its NHR which makes it just as highly taxed as Spain, while Spain just introduced its digital nomad/NHR visa. People rushed to Portugal because they are overwhelmingly uninformed, case in point.
rep4me@reddit
I don't know what the NHR is but thanks for the info
YakPersonal9246@reddit
It was a special program where expats and foreigners payed much less taxes. But it’s ending now.
oldjerseyy@reddit
I'm glad it's ending
alitoch@reddit
Thank you for making my point that your country isn't worth moving to. I should've added in my previous comment that the mindset here is as backward as the infrastructure.
rep4me@reddit
Thanks then it makes even less sense. I am very anti tax in general. The last time I made a post looking for a low tax euro country people downvoted me to hell.
alitoch@reddit
I'm gonna get downvoted to hell too for saying this, but that's because europeans love taxes and a nanny state. Friendly advice, and it really comes from a caring place, you should really actually research europe before thinking about moving there. Don't need to ask reddit, there are plenty of actionable and trustworthy sources online.
Mediocre_Piccolo8542@reddit
NHR was basically a program which lowered the taxes of certain group, limited for couple of years. Without NHR both countries have similar taxes.
Spain has wealth tax for the most parts, so if you are very rich you have to pick Andalusia or Madrid as your residence (they don't have it).
rep4me@reddit
I'll just do a Shakira and dodge it for as long as possible. How rich should i be that they don't lock me up?
syf81@reddit
You could go for smaller cities but everyone wants to be in Lisbon or Porto.
Otherwise there are still cheaper non-EU countries in Europe, provided you have foreign income and a visa.
alitoch@reddit
You're still better off going to a "smaller city" in France or Spain for equal or cheaper prices and much, much better infrastructure, public transport (to get around, especially useful if you live in a small city where there isn't much to do), and cultural events.
godlovesayterrier@reddit
Exactly. That's what we did and it's much better. Even with NHR our taxes are the same in France (social charges are 25% in Portugal), and everything works better.
unsamendoins@reddit
Have you lived in all cities in Portugal to be able to say that?
I grew up in a smaller city in Portugal and studied in Lisbon. Now I live abroad. I can tell you I had an incredible quality of life in my “smaller city” and will pick it any time.
oldjerseyy@reddit
Oh the irony
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Stay where you are.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
is that a general life advice after moving so much? ;)
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
It's an option.
smoy75@reddit
Says the guy with numerous countries listed lol
alitoch@reddit
Well, maybe they're speaking from experience then?
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
None of them Europe, lol
GreatHome2309@reddit
Yes that ship sailed several years ago
John198777@reddit
For Portuguese people yes. Europe needs to crack down on rich foreigners working illegally on tourist and retirement visas. I've no problem with rich people living in Europe it they pay European taxes.
badlydrawngalgo@reddit
Portugal doesn't have a retirement visa, it has the D7 visa that requires a passive income like a pension, trust, rental income etc., you can be any age. Assuming a D7 and you're past the stage 2 residency visa appointment stage, you're legally allowed to work.
John198777@reddit
It is the same in France but I struggled to translate it into English. They just say it is a visitor visa in France but for "inactifs" so anyone with passive income is fine but there are lots of people working and receiving dividends from their own companies, often offshore ones, and claiming that the dividend income is passive.
Goanawz@reddit
Many rich people migrating makes housing more expensive for the local in any case.
frugalacademic@reddit
Yes. I recently visited Porto, and saw my barber and whereas in the whole 2010-2020 period it cost €7 for a haircut, this time it was €13.
unsamendoins@reddit
Are you being sarcastic or…? It was less than a 50% increase from 2010 which was… 14 years ago. They also need to make a living.
frugalacademic@reddit
I don't mind the rise. He totally deserves that pay. I meant that the last time I went to see him at the beginning of 2020, it was still €7. So the price hike only happened after 2020.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
thats still super cheap.
in Dublin cheapest would be more like 25 EUR
the ''expensive'' ones barber starts at 60 EUR
ith228@reddit
It’s expensive when 50% of people make 800 euro a month why don’t you people ever seem to get that. Of course it’s cheap for you because Irish people make more than 3x the average Portuguese person.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
And they spend it all due to the prices. At the end of the day, we are all poor.
smallsky4@reddit
America has destroyed the world
modijk@reddit
In Lisbon you see a lot of buildings that are falling apart. If the state would force the owners to fix them or sell them (Dutch strategy, works very well), it would already create a ton more housing.
gogetit19@reddit
Replace the word Portugal, with The world.
greenplastic22@reddit
I'm in Portugal now, husband's family is mostly all here, and when we decided to come here in September 2022, we were seeing rents like $450 for 1- 2 bedrooms, then by the time we got here in February 2023, the same types of places were at $750-$900. I've seen articles about this and how the rents jumped like crazy very quickly.
Things are still cheap to us compared to what we were paying in the U.S. Vet visits that would have been $450 cost 50 euros, specialist medical appointments for 90 euros for 50 minutes and a comprehensive diagnosis and plan instead of $300 for 15 minutes to be told its all in my head.
ShelyChelle@reddit
Yes, because only Americans are migrating to Portugal
Sugmanuts001@reddit
I'm sorry, but what?
Europe is expensive? Compared to what? It's still less expensive than either the West or East Coast of the US, any major metropolitan area in Canada, Singapore, any major city in China.
fuckyou_m8@reddit
It's expensive compared to average local de wage
Candid_Twilight7812@reddit
that's the consequence of immigrations.
Primary-Bluejay-1594@reddit
It is. It's all you lot moving over with your retirement accounts and remote jobs that pay multiple times what the local economy offers, driving up the price of everything for locals and forcing them out of cities they've lived in their whole lives. Whatever other options are available will go the same way eventually.
FarceMultiplier@reddit
Locals drive up the prices because they believe that expat dollars matter more than affordability for the locals.
Primary-Bluejay-1594@reddit
Mmmhmm, you're almost there. What allows them to charge the prices they do?
FarceMultiplier@reddit
Yes, that lovely money is just calling to them.
My point is that both sides are part of the problem...expats greedy for a cheaper life, and locals greedy to get more money from expats at the expense of other locals.
If we were talking virtue, the people raising the prices are the worst.
Primary-Bluejay-1594@reddit
I don't disagree, and of course it's a vicious cycle with lots of guilty parties. I'm just increasingly annoyed at posts on expat forums from digital nomads just looking for the next national economy to help suck dry.
FarceMultiplier@reddit
For what it's worth, there are lots of people looking for the glamor of it, and those people deserve some derision.
There are others though that just realize they can't ever retire in their home country due to the rising costs there, and are seeking a non-starvation, non-homeless end of life.
EmpathyHawk1@reddit
hows remote job driving the price up
Primary-Bluejay-1594@reddit
Is this a serious question or do you really want an explanation of basic economics?
bluemoldy@reddit
Here's a 7 month article that touches upon it all: https://www.politico.eu/article/portugal-digital-nomads-bubble-gentrification/
Delicious_Ad_9365@reddit
This is a good summary, though out of date now, as it was published a year ago. Since this article, the purchase of property no longer qualifies for the Golden Visa. Also gone is the NHR. There is a transitory NHR regime for some stragglers who were in process of moving at the end of 2023, and there is a revised 2024 NHR as well, but it is now much more specific and limiting as to who can qualify for that.
The-sad-titan-europe@reddit
Housing in the big cities, yes. But Portugal is not just Lisbon, Porto, The Algarve or Coimbra or Braga for that matter. There is several other trade-offs that make Portugal such a desiring place.
Kbesol@reddit
There are approximately 46, 000 Brits in Portugal and 7,000 Americans.
Nero401@reddit
Good morning!
Gino-Solow@reddit
1) Portugal Inflation Rate doesn’t appear to be much higher than in other European countries. It is currently at 1.90%, compared to 9.80% last year. This is lower than the long term average of 2.17%.
2) Inflation was high everywhere in 2022-2023. But there are still affordable places in Europe: Serbia, Albania, Georgia an Turkey (if you stretch the definition of Europe), Romania, Bulgaria..
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
No it’s getting cheaper by the year
ConsciousGreenPepper@reddit
Unfortunately, it's not so affordable. I really feel for the local population. I don't understand why there aren't more affordable housing options or rent control or something, because it's really getting out of hand...
dyatlov12@reddit
I think Portugal was always kinda unaffordable in the places foreigners would want to live.
Outside of Lisbon, some of Porto and parts of the Algarve it is still good I think.
rep4me@reddit
Porto is just as bad I think. Its a second Lisbon. And the Algarve seems to attract older Brits, which is a whole other category of people.Â
zia_zhang@reddit
Countrywide Gentrification
sad-kittenx@reddit
Yes
DorianGraysPassport@reddit
It has gotten more expensive in Porto since I moved here in 2020. I am still happy here, and it is still cost effective compared to other places where I’ve lived. I know people who live frugally and sustainably outside of Lisbon and Porto. Not sure where to advise you to look because everywhere in the world is following this trend.