CL-30 gig or wait it out for my regional cadet program I am at?

Posted by SupportGold7583@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 74 comments

To start out I know similar questions like these have been posted and I have used the search bar but they aren't too similar to what I have to decide between. I am blessed to have gotten a SIC offer to get a CL-30 type and fly a challenger only a couple months from 1500 hours. My goal has always been to go to the airlines and that is still my goal. The 135 gig offers lower pay which I plan to negotiate but have not yet (its to the point where I will not take it if they don't negotiate with me), a 12/10 rotation, 1 year contract, and upgrade to PIC in about a year. On the other hand, I am in a cadet program for a regional which has currently put me on a waitlist for a class date and gives me priority over OTS hires on that list. They are telling me a class sometime around summer which of course is not a guarantee because I have no clue if they will stop classes or not once I am at mins or push it back indefinitely like some others have experienced which is my biggest fear if I decline this 135 gig. Then again, my goal is to be at the airlines but its pure uncertainty over there. I was thinking that if I did take the job 135 - low cost - major could be a solid route? I would love to hear anyone's insight for whoever has been in a similar situation.

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74 Comments

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EsquireRed@reddit

Expect to fly significantly less hours per month on the CL-30 than at a regional. My personal opinion is that airlines look more favorably at the Part 121 right seat gig over a Part 91/135 right seat gig.

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bonchie123@reddit

Not sure that's true. I keep hearing about new-hire regional FOs only flying 100-200 hours in the first year. Can't speak for all corporate gigs, but he'll probably get at least that much.

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EsquireRed@reddit

If regionals are only giving FOs 200 hours/yr that's awful...I skipped the regionals and went to a ULCC, so I guess regionals are a bigger mess than I realized? At my last 135 shop on a Hawker I was flying 15 to 20 hours a month the last 6 months I was there. It drove me crazy - I wanted the hours obviously to build time and get my ATP. Hopefully the regional hiring will normalize soon to fix the low flying time if that's what's going on. On my other comment about how a 121 airline looks at a right seat 135 gig vs a 121 right seat gig, that's coming directly from a hiring manager at a major 121 airline, so whomever can downvote me into an oblivion, but I stand by what I said. That same hiring manager did say that left seat 135 with turbine PIC is more valuable than right seat 121 time at the moment, which I thought was interesting, but that's not OP's issue.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

The challenger is an awesome airplane. Sports car of the sky.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Lower than that. I wouldn’t break 70 base without per diem

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x4457@reddit

They're fucking you on pay, and no they likely won't budge on it. The fact that you're even considering it is proof they don't need to because if you don't, someone else will. Try, but don't expect it. That pay and schedule is insulting.

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120SR@reddit

You absolutely right that they can offer that low pay because someone else will take it, this is the MO of all low time operators, it’s a bottomless downward spiral full of pilots without options. -someone who would gladly scoop up this job and be happy with 50k because it’s twice what I make now

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x4457@reddit

Congratulations, you're part of the problem. I get it, but I'm not gonna not say it.

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120SR@reddit

I understand the surface level implication as to why I’m the problem but I’d love to hear your explanation.

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x4457@reddit

I mean, very simple: You're so desperate to get out of whatever job you're doing now that you are willing to take less than 50% of market rate to escape it. The job you have now is likely a result of desperation to avoid...probably instructing if you're not an instructor. It's a vicious cycle. It's not your fault, that's just how it goes, bit recognize that if nobody took those shit jobs for shit pay they'd have to pay more. That's just capitalism.

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120SR@reddit

You were damn near spot on in guessing the job I have now. It was my first pick above instructing, as it’s for the local turbine dropzone. It’s got pros and cons over instructing. I agree that these are merely results of capitalism. myself like everyone wants both a good job and a good wage. However, we’re not going to forgo having any job. I’m attempting to choose the high road as I purposely stuck out this current job and accepted the low pay, paid for ATP/CTP and have my fingers crossed that Net jets/ similar jobs paying “market rates” will hire myself around 1500. It’s a real roll of the dice at the moment.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Would it be better to hold out for a regional?

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x4457@reddit

That's a you decision, not a me decision. But I certainly wouldn't (and had in fact turned down similar jobs with your experience level) accept that bad of a job because shiny jet.

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oldbutambulatorty@reddit

Turbine time is an excellent addition to your log book.

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120SR@reddit

That specific variety of multi turbojet time is the key to his ultimate goal of a major, start that now.

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827020@reddit

If life factors aren’t a consideration (wife/kids/bills), take the CL-65 gig.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

I wish it was CL-65 lol, its CL-30

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827020@reddit

Whoops sorry! However I stand by my comment

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minfremi@reddit

At least lav services and fueling is much easier (from a line guy perspective) in the 300 than 600.

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x4457@reddit

CL-65 is the CRJ. CL-60 is the 600 series.

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minfremi@reddit

I’ve always thought they’re the same type rating. They’re not?

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x4457@reddit

No.

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minfremi@reddit

Oh…

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thecloudcities@reddit

The manufacturers generally have to lobby the regulators to get aircraft that are more than just a little bit different on the same type certificate. It only makes sense to do this if the same operator would actually fly both. That's not likely to happen with the Challenger 600 and the CRJ, so no reason for Bombardier to go to the trouble.

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PilotWannabeinOK@reddit

Take the job offered now. You never know when things will change at the airlines. Better to have a job than not.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

I know and agree but like I said the pay they are offering me is very low

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Gunt3r_@reddit

How low?

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Little over half of regional pay

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PILOT9000@reddit

Are those regional pay plans actually set in stone now, or are they still just temporary letters of agreement with the unions still? Also you have a job offer to fly a jet now. If you pass that up, when will you get hired and flying with a regional note that hiring has slowed so much?

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PilotWannabeinOK@reddit

My reply to that is, would you rather have half pay or no pay? Be thankful you are even being offered a job before 1500 hours. You're far better off than I am sitting at 250 hours and won't ever likely have a shot at flying for anyone except myself.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

Being gone for half the month for shit pay and a year long contract… might be better with no pay. I’ve signed contracts and worked for low pay. I wish I wouldn’t have and just stuck it out until something better came along. If this was great pay it would be a no brainer.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

You have a CL-30 type. What’s the lowest pay you’d take for that job and that schedule? They’re even talking about 14/10 with me

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

I wouldn’t take under 90k. I would want to match a regional at least. I mean maybe 80k without per diem.

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TemporaryAmbassador1@reddit

Half of regional pay now was full regional pay four years ago, and that was more than double regional pay 15 years ago. Some of y’all need to be reminded of that.

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Gunt3r_@reddit

As long as it’s livable, take it. It’s only a year. You’re guarenteed better pay from either a captain upgrade or another job when the contract is up.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Personally I don’t know if it’s livable. It would not really help me pay off debt from training along with life expenses

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redditor0927@reddit

Half regional pay is definitely livable. Just gotta budget and live below your means. Roommates if necessary.

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SlowDownToGoDown@reddit

That is crap-tier pay, but the CL-30 is a great airplane to get some jet time on. I went from it to the 737, and miss the CL-30. Good avionics, stellar runway performance, comfortable flight deck. It will make you a better airline pilot. There is no reduced thrust takeoffs in that plane, so enjoy those lightweight reposition takeoffs...

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

With per-diem it’s higher of course. What’s the lowest pay you’d take for that job and schedule?

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SlowDownToGoDown@reddit

*Hops on soapbox* Repeat after me, "per diem is not income." Do not believe anyone (management or pilot) who tells you this. You know why? Because the government doesn't tax it. If it was income, it would be taxed. I pay taxes on "imputed income" for benefits my employer pays me that aren't even cash to me, because the government deems it of value. Yes, you can eat leftover catering, and free hotel breakfast, and scrimp and pocket the money, but it is not income. *Hops off soapbox* I mean in 2017 I made $55k salary as a CL-30 FO on an 8/6 schedule, but the job market has improved greatly. You can look at what JetEdge and Flexjet are paying their crews...I believe it's closer to the $90-100k+ range now. You don't have an offer from them, so making $70k to fly a nice stand-up jet may be the best choice. $70k

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Anphsn@reddit

Some companies throw per diem into your pay and tax tit

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

But it’s lower than 70k

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AlegraD@reddit

Just a heads up, they’re lying about taking a cadet before an off the street hire. You’ll get an interview first but nothing else is guaranteed

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

I already interviewed and everything. The airline is no longer even hiring OTS

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AlegraD@reddit

I’m glad you got a CJO! But no regional cadet program has said they’ll take cadets before street hires. AA WOs are hiring off the street in limited quantities for more experienced pilots. I’m assuming that’s the cadet program you’re in.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Im mostly referring to 1500TT OTS hires

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AlegraD@reddit

There is no difference between OTS and cadet at 1500 hours once they both have a CJO. The cadet program gets you in the door marginally faster. How you do on the interview and qualifications compared to others given offers at a similar time will determine class date. I wouldn’t put all your eggs in that class date basket. That being said, I’d assume you’re flying currently building time. I’d keep doing that till summer. They offered you a date and gave you somewhat of an estimate. I wouldn’t personally throw that away for a 135. In my experience they won’t negotiate pay if they have to pay for your type anyways. I turned down 135 offers because of pay, which made sense for my situation.

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acollicott@reddit

This is incorrect. An OTS with 500+ of 121 or 135 time is the top priority, behind DECs. My company isn’t picking up ATP mins people except through the Cadet program. We have plenty of low time FOs.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Okay I understand. It just said in their agreement I signed (not any kind of contract) that I get "priority class date selection over other hires" but I see what you are saying. Have you ever been able to negotiate pay with any company? I'll tell you this, they are offering me way below 70k for a long rotational schedule.

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AlegraD@reddit

I think you’d have better luck negotiating pay at a 91. In my experience new 135 pilots are either paid 50k because they aren’t experienced and a type cost 30k or paid what they are really worth if they have a type. I have not been able to negotiate with both the 135s I had offers from. Offers that were closer to half of regional pay at the MMG. In that case waiting 6 months cost the same as a year contract at a 135. If you ignore the time. 135 SIC time, I’m told, doesn’t mean what it used to for airlines. 12/10 for less than 70k is a lot of flying. That’s for sure. 7/7 and 8/6 is what the companies I applied to offered. Personally, you got the CJO and are probably 2-3 years from a legacy/major? I’d stick the course unless they’ll up your pay. I wish you luck negotiating. At least the CL-30 is a true 2 pilot jet and you wouldn’t be slumming it right seat in a PC12 or citation.

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SupportGold7583@reddit (OP)

Thank you, really appreciate it. I will do what I can about the negotiating

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Right-Suggestion-667@reddit

The pay is prob more than what you’re making now as a CFI

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No_Somewhere3288@reddit

At less than 1500 hours now, there isn’t a chance in hell you will upgrade in a year. I’d bet that at minimum you would need 3000 hours before any 135 would upgrade you in a challenger.

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legitSTINKYPINKY@reddit

Upgrade mins are 2500 at my company for the Challenger and we fly 600hrs a year. Which is not nothing. A year is pushing it with 1500hrs. Probably looking at 2.

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SoySauceSandwich@reddit

Take the CL-30 gig, break the contract if the pay isn't up to par, and the airline gig come knocking. The CL-30 gig might lead you to a LCC, which is a lot better than any regional gig.

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Special-Frosting-950@reddit

A low cost airline is a major airline.

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oakaypilot@reddit

And Southwest is a Legacy

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SpeedbirdTK1@reddit

Southwest has a legacy-tier contract but you and the other GA guy in here saying ULCCs are separate from a major are really way off with what the definition of a legacy and a major are.

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AlegraD@reddit

Southwest opened its first non interstate route after the Airline Deregulation Act of 1979. Because of that, they are not a Legacy.

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AlegraD@reddit

Hot take. Not a lot of people will agree with you there lol

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velocires@reddit

It is a hot take, but shouldn't be. Frontier, Southwest and even yes ... Spirit are majors. They're not regionals... and their not legacies... Soooooo.... Major

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AlegraD@reddit

Eh lol. Everyone else is a LCC. Low cost carriers are already their own group.

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velocires@reddit

Okay I can see your argument, but then what do you call a major airline?

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AlegraD@reddit

JetBlue and Southwest could be conditions Majors because they’re not marketing tickets as a low cost option like Spirit, Allegiant and Frontier. They are definitely LCC

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velocires@reddit

Well, it's an undisputed fact that Southwest is a low-cost carrier, it is the world's largest low-cost carrier as a matter of fact. Spirit, frontier and allegiant are considered ULCCs, Ultra low cost carriers. So that leaves JetBlue as the only major?

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AlegraD@reddit

Yeah. You’re right. Southwest is considered a LCC. Their prices don’t always make it seem like it lol. I’d still say they’re a Major then if anything with JetBlue and put everyone else in the ULCC. Retirement and QOL are also better between Southwest and JetBlue vs the ULCC group.

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HeroOfTheDay545@reddit

I think you're getting unnecessarily hung up on labels. Who cares if your employer is technically a major, LCC, ABC, 123? All that matters is if they offer what you want to get out of the job. When you start looking beyond "prestige" or what may be best for most people and more into overall QOL, things get complicated.

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