TheaterFire

Instead of a specific fine for a crime, the fine should be a percentage of a person's wealth.

Posted by dexidrone@reddit | CrazyIdeas | View on Reddit | 303 comments

Fining poor people is not only stupid, but evil... I'll see my way out.

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303 Comments

SwordTaster@reddit

That's already true in I think Denmark or something like that. Millionaires have speeding fines that are 6 digits
View on Reddit #18237643

UnauthorizedFart@reddit

That’s ridiculous lol
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bran_dong@reddit

why is it ridiculous? the purpose of the fine is to make you stop speeding, if a millionaire pays the same as a normal person then they can afford to break the law indefinitely.
View on Reddit #18240855

UnauthorizedFart@reddit

$100k for a speeding ticket? I can easily see this being abused
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Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

Elaborate. I can see wealthier people getting pulled more, but the current standard is to pull mainly poor people who can't defend themselves.
View on Reddit #18242906

UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Cops need to increase their department budget “Hey is that a Lexus??”
View on Reddit #18243468

Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

Currently cops that need to increase their department budget "Hey is that poor man that can't defend himself?"
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

They’re not gonna get $100k out of a poor person either way
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Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

They do by pulling more poor people! Look at the Million Dollar Mile in Virginia! Save the rich, fuck the poor. I get you.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

That’s not what I meant
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

They understood what you said, they just pointed out that it's short-sighted.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

That’s not what I meant though. They may target poor people now but they would definitely go after rich / luxury vehicles instead if this is how we based traffic tickets. I guess that sounds good on Reddit
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

And you think it's better for poor people to be more likely to be fined, who can't afford it, vs. rich people, who totally can afford it? An over-frequency of fines is an issue of police reform, it does not invalidate the point that only fucking over the poor in the law is BS. Your point is, again, short-sighted.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Yes
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

Well, then no one misunderstood you, just pointed out why your viewpoint is flawed.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

No you’re right, $100k speeding tickets makes total sense
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

OK.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Now do you see the error in your ways?
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

What error? Sounds like projection.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Youre projecting people pay $100k for a simple traffic infraction.
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Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

Not if you have $1mil in your bank account. More than 50% of Americans have less than $1000 in the bank, so if you get hit with a $250 speeding ticket, that's over a quarter of your liquid assets, not to mention the huge upcharge on insurance. Why shouldn't rich people be hit with something just as painful to help deter them from offending? They should. You're pointing to one rare, potentially extreme case, which even in its financial context is still not extreme as it will not hamper the wealthy individual from putting food on the table or buying school supplies etc.
View on Reddit #18348801

UnauthorizedFart@reddit

$100k would be 10% of their wealth
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Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

I'm going to applaud you for me only just realizing that you're a troll
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

*bows*
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Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

But I think you'll like this video anyway lol https://youtu.be/TlsqmRQCltw?si=Z7kVhLVQDNza_9-Q
View on Reddit #18503549

Persun_McPersonson@reddit

How am I projecting when I didn't make an error? I said it's bullshit to only fuck over poor people, you said you don't care if the law is unfair/classist because of reasons.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Following this logic, poor people would only have to pay like $10 for a ticket
View on Reddit #18305195

Persun_McPersonson@reddit

If 10 $ is a lot of money for someone, then why would it be bad to charge them only 10 $ when it would have just as much of a negative affect they're like as a better-off person being charged more? Why are you so unwilling to understand the basic logic of relative punishment?
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

I’m fine with relative punishment, I just thought the idea of a $100k speeding ticket is ridiculous lol
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You're contracting yourself—you admitted yourself that you think only poor people being fucked over is fine, and believing a high-cost ticket for a rich person is ridiculous goes directly against your current claim that you are fine with relative punishment.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

I didn’t say poor people should be fucked over lol
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You directly confirmed that was your stance earlier.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

I don’t recall saying “Yes let’s fuck over poor people specifically!”. Please show me where I said that.
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You don't need to blatantly say that in particular for "we should keep only fucking up the poor people" to be something you clearly indicated by responding "Yes" when that view was being directed at you, and for repeatedly speaking out against making the situation more fair between poor and rich people. Like, seriously, none of your arguments are logical or made in good faith. You're just a stupid asshole.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

You’re taking the Yes out of context now
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

No, it was the literal context. Everything about your arguments and responses points to a single conclusion. You're trying to ignore the context of the conversation so you can backpedal.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

This was like 2 days ago, just give it a rest man
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You've been replying the whole time, you're equally as responsible for the continued conversation; you're just deflecting from your BS now.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Because you keep responding, I have to! *rolls up newspaper*
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You're dumb.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

“No! Bad! Bad!”
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

Yes, you are.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Alright sir I’m going to need to confirm your income so I can calculate the ticket
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You are dumb.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

What is your annual gross income before taxes?
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

Shshshhh
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

I’m going to assume the US median income of 31,133 USD so your ticket is only $10k
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

Shshhshhhshsh
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Hey you’re the one who wanted this
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

No, I want you to acknowledge your dumb position.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

I’m a changed man and now I agree with relative punishment for your $10k ticket. Now will that be cash or card?
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

So you agree that a rich person should be fined significantly more money than a poor person?
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

If it’s relative to their income, yes. The same Yes I said last time that you keep latching onto like an old woman clutching her pearls
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Persun_McPersonson@reddit

You repeatedly argued against the relative income thing, it was the entire point of disagreement. Back pedaling.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

No I said I’m a changed man now. I see the light. Freedom from such tyranny.
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Keyndoriel@reddit

Man, you have some shit opinions about costs for ticketing people. You know other countries actually do have sliding fines in the face of base income? If you're rich enough, and the cost for the fine is effectively pocket change, you're not gonna be likely to give a shit.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Good brain joke, Bazinga!
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UsernameLottery@reddit

Make the law state that any fines received can't go to the police department then
View on Reddit #18257317

UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Where would the money go then? Someone will find a way to abuse it
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UsernameLottery@reddit

General fund, public transportation/road repair, schools, donations to sister cities in other countries for all I care. It can be abused, sure, but that's already true with any government revenue isn't it? Might as well make it more equitable for the citizens
View on Reddit #18270141

UnauthorizedFart@reddit

The cops will be paid off by those organizations to pull over rich people
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UsernameLottery@reddit

You always this cynical? Sure, some cops will accept bribes. They'll eventually get caught and prosecuted. The fact that people will break laws isn't an excuse to not have them
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

$100k speeding tickets is ridiculous though
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UsernameLottery@reddit

Why? It's proportional to your income. If I make $20 an hour and get a $100 ticket, that's 5 hours of my time. If you make $2,000 an hour, what's wrong with the ticket being equal to 5 hours of your time?
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

That would be a $10k ticket
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UsernameLottery@reddit

I was just using an example, more of a coincidence that the numbers almost matched your $100k comment
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

I guess if they match then I won the username lottery
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Dave_A480@reddit

The current standard is to pull over people who are likely to have committed more serious offenses than the predicate traffic violation. Someone in a Porsche (that isn't stolen) isn't likely to have felony warrants....
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Kittens-of-Terror@reddit

Again, probably because the wealthy have the legal team and financial means and general life advice to not get stuck with stuff.
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jfever78@reddit

It's not being abused, that's ridiculous. The system works perfectly fine and should be the standard everywhere.
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Yeah let’s see how that goes in the US
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jfever78@reddit

That's because the US has such a fucking stupid system that allows police forces to fund themselves, that they end up with crooked tactics like asset forfeiture. Police departments should never make more money if they write more tickets, it's guaranteed to breed corruption. Fixing that would allow for day fines to work perfectly fine in the US. There's actually been small scale trials of them in places like Milwaukee and Staten Island in the past. They worked fine, but in the 80s people wanted tougher laws and more arrests, not tickets, so it never really took off. Now that people are trying to stop the mass incarceration issue that that 80s attitude resulted in, it would have a better chance of succeeding today.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

I get the point, but would this not lead to nicer cars just getting followed by cops in hopes of bagging huge amounts of funding for the department because the person went 1 mph over, and way more likely that someone whose extremely poor getting no punishment at all for massive offenses
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SteelyDanzig@reddit

> would this not lead to nicer cars just getting followed by cops in hopes of bagging huge amounts of funding for the department because the person went 1 mph over You mean, shit that already happens every day across the world?
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

That does not happen
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SteelyDanzig@reddit

Bruh. If you think cops (at least in the US) don't seek out people driving high-end cars because they're looking for tickets I've got some nice oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

If you think that the reason people in high end cars get more tickets isn't because they view speeding tickets as a minor nuissance rather than a major setback then I hope you are able to learn the difference between correlation and causation someday. Do you also think that because red cars get more speeding tickets its because cops are more likely to target people in red cars instead of the fact that people who speed are more likely to buy a red car?
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SteelyDanzig@reddit

It's possible to be two things at the same time. Obviously people in high-end cars have a certain stereotype attached to them, and as a result cops are more likely to hassle them.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

Do you have any evidence of this? Because in my experience the nicer my car has been as I've gotten older, the less I've been pulled over (and those that I know with the nicest cars get warnings instead of citations the most). Of course if by "high end car" you mean sports cars, then yeah, their going to pay attention to you more because you're driving a car that is meant to go insanely fast. People don't buy those for the looks. Its possible what you're saying is true byut I need more evidence than "Bruh"
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SteelyDanzig@reddit

I mean, yeah, I was referring to *high-end* cars, Lambos, Ferraris, etc., not like, some random Audi or Beemer. Idk what you want from me here bud. Peer-reviewed studies? Surveys from cops about their true intentions?
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

You make jokes but you can't provide ***anything***. I at least provided anecdotes. You can't do that. I'm not talking about ***some random Beemer***. I am saying someone driving a $150k BMW XM (an electric SUV), a Maserati Levante, a Range Rover, any luxury SUV or Sedan is not going to be targeted more. Sure you can make the point that someone who buys a car with the purpose of going fast is going to get tickets more for going fast, but I don't think I can make a violin small enough for that person
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SteelyDanzig@reddit

You want anecdotes? Ok. I used to work with cops. County jail almost five years. Spoke to them all the time. At least three of them told me they've followed cars like that all the way to the county line just to see if they can pull them over for something. I didn't volunteer this information because anecdotal evidence isn't good for shit. You're very obviously not even trying to let yourself budge on this so I don't see why I should continue wasting my time on this inane discussion.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

Anecdotal evidence ***again*** is better than nothing. Now. I will say the reason that people in sports cars get more tickets is because those people are more likely to speed since the fine is smaller proportional to income. Why do you think they follow people in sports cars? Conversations like this are easy when you actually engage! :)
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SteelyDanzig@reddit

Oh fuck off with your bad-faith condescension. I'm done. Whatever. Have a nice day. Or don't, I honestly couldn't care less.
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Acceptable-Let-1921@reddit

I don't think police departments fund themselves in most places.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

10-20% of a Police department's revenue come from the citations it gives
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Acceptable-Let-1921@reddit

In what country? You know they're not the same
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

The United States... The place where people are most likely to talk about police departments being evil when they aren't actively corrupt
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Acceptable-Let-1921@reddit

Corrupt police is a global phenomenon. Racist pigs are drawn to power.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

In the US the police are not ***corrupt***. They are a bad system but corruption implies ulterior motives of individuals. That is not the case in the US for the most part
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Acceptable-Let-1921@reddit

So harassing minorities that hasn't done anything illegal isn't ulterior motives?
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

Is that supposed to be a trick question? Obviously not. Police brutality, violence, or harrassment isn't happening as a result of police systems being built in a militarized ways in minority spaces, or as a result of racist individuals. Corruption implies dishonest actions specifically for financial gain. That isn't happening. Police don't make more money when they shoot someone's dog. They don't make more money for each black person they murder. They are doing that either because they are racist or because the system has led to militarization of minority community police departments. This isn't corruption and there's no reason to imply it is
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bran_dong@reddit

the entire point of a fine is to make it too expensive for the person to continue to break the law. speeding tickets arent comission based as far as im aware so the police would have zero monetary motivation to pull them over... cops literally have quotas for pulling people over. that means that if not enough people go over the speed limit, they are obligated to lie and say someone did regardless of how much income they appear to have. expensive cars already tend to get pulled over more often because...these people can afford to break that law indefinitely and theyre driving race cars...so they speed more often. the most concerning thing to me about your comment is that you almost sound salty about poor people being the ones getting away with crime instead of the rich people. alternatively, maybe the police wouldnt need quotas if they just bagged 1 rich guy a month instead of 100 poor people? sounds like a step in the right direction to me.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

An individual officer isn't incentivized. But a department is incentivized by this. Richer neighborhoods would have better funded police departments and poorer areas have worse funded ones. Poorer funded police departments have a harder time hiring. They hire worse cops that are more likely to do dangerous shit. It perpetuates a cycle of harm for poorer communities
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bran_dong@reddit

well lets follow this train of thought. the department wants funding, they plan to steal it from the people anytime they break the law via fines. this is why departments have quotas ALREADY instituted that incentivize tickets by affecting your performance review. so the inevitable outcome is them extracting funding from the citizens in order to fund their organization. if youre suggesting this be completely abolished, i agree 100%. if youre suggesting that somehow it would cause more problems than it solved by targeting the rich instead of poor people, then its obvious you have no idea what its like to be poor or what poorer communities experience - the cycle of harm you mention is already present in their lives, thats why the community is poor. even if a millionaire is fined hundreds of thousands of dollars, their quality of life is largely unaffected by the fine. for a poor person, the same fine represents a very large percentage of their income. someone in another comment mentioned that finland scales their tickets by income ONLY when it exceeds an excessive amount, so your argument of "people going 1mph over being targeted" becomes even less valid because someone would need to speed excessively for their yearly income to be factored in. ​ TL;DR if the police are gonna steal money from lawbreakers either way then it should be from the ones who can afford to pay.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

The cycle of harm does exist... I agree... I am saying this will exarcebate it
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bran_dong@reddit

maybe making the problem worse for those with the power to change it will be a step in the right direction.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

The people that this would be worse for in the ways I describe would be poor people. Poor people don't have power in this. Rich people that would have to pay higher fines would probably have a better experience with police officers since the pay of officers would most likely go up and officers would be less likely to do a bad thing (since the pay of police officers is correlated to police brutality rates)
View on Reddit #18259645

bran_dong@reddit

if the police have to be paid more for them to hurt people less, and fining rich people gets them more money by arresting less people...then it makes sense to pick the bigger target so that less people get hurt. what youre saying is literally defending the rich not paying their share while simultaneously saying the poor should pay more so the police dont harm them. thank you for letting me and anyone reading along witness these olympic-level mental gymnastics.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

I am happy to clarify. It is ***very*** straightforward. 1. Police departments in poor areas will make less money from citations (\~10-20% of revenue come from citations in most police departments) 2. Less money to police departments (when it isn't directly coming from a specific cut to budget by the local govt) almost always means either less pay to police officers or less police officers hired (meaning the few left get drastically overworked), and not a decrease in the militarization of the police. 3. Police officers that are overworked or underpaid are going to preselect for people that are worse for the job since better people can get better jobs. 4. Worse police officers either are harmful to the community due to police violence (either trigger happy or overworked and misunderstand signals from the "perpetrator") or undue incarceration (increase in "arrest now ask questions later" mentality). I think that a local PD getting funding from the citations that ***only*** that PD produce will lead to what OP is calling for to have disastrous outcomes for poorer people. Collecting and redistributing at a state level as needed would be ***a necessity*** before this could be implemented. Again, I think the idea is a good one, but the way things are right now it would be terrible for poor communities
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DatBoi_BP@reddit

I for one would love if the money paid for traffic violations got redistributed into community spending of some kind
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

based. Basically have all that money be incorporated as a part of the gas tax. big win for communities for sure. (ofc if we did it the way that OP proposed, then rich areas will continue to get nicer infrastructure, and poorer areas continue to fall behind)
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DatBoi_BP@reddit

Ooooo good point. Then maybe the revenue should go to an equitable state-level budget for the same things. Richer states might get more money, but probably not that much.
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desubot1@reddit

there is like 5 different potholes on my way to work that i can think of that could really use a filling.
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BranchPredictor@reddit

In Finland the fine goes to the state, not the department. The state will pay the police officers according to the agreed salary structure regardless of the amount of fines they might issue. The incentive for the police officers to issue fines is not a reward but to follow the law and failing to do so might in return see officers get punished by fines, jail time, or termination of their duties. In another words: no carrot, only a stick.
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doc_skinner@reddit

It's such an American thing to think of the function of police being to raise money for their department or their government. I guess this is why American police cars are disguised and try to hide from other cars, while in other countries they are painted bright green or orange with big flashing lights.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

Not what I said but thanks though
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HeavyMain@reddit

probably, but authority abusing power is a separate issue that already happens and would not happen more just because of this. just changes who they target from the marginalized who can't legally defend themselves instead to the powerful and wealthy, which is still shitty but still kind of better off either way.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

It would ***absolutely*** happen more if this were implemented. My problem isn't that rich people are charged more. Its that rich areas would excacerbate how much more funding they get to police departments. And poorer areas would get less funding which (without a reform of the system as a whole) would simply lead to more police brutality and more undue incarceration of people from poorer areas.
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HeavyMain@reddit

im not really sure how to connect those dots. police are after quotas, and if rich people fill those easier that seems like a hell of a lot less work than mugging poor people for pennies.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

Yeah! I'm happy to help. 1. Police departments in poor areas will make less money from citations (\~10-20% of revenue come from citations in most police departments) 2. Less money to police departments (when it isn't directly coming from a specific cut to budget by the local govt) almost always means either less pay to police officers or less police officers hired (meaning the few left get drastically overworked), and not a decrease in the militarization of the police. 3. Police officers that are overworked or underpaid are going to preselect for people that are worse for the job since better people can get better jobs. 4. Worse police officers either are harmful to the community due to police violence (either trigger happy or overworked and misunderstand signals from the "perpetrator") or undue incarceration (increase in "arrest now ask questions later" mentality). I hope this helps, and if you have any questions, let me know which step is confusing!
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HeavyMain@reddit

that makes sense, but i guess the worst case you describe kinda feels like the reality in poor communities already. there's a massive list of issues with how police operate, though, and you are right that those definitely should be solved first before anything else, because really they will just keep doing it if they can get away with it no matter what else changes.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

I feel like this would simply excacerbate issues that are already happening. It feels like we're in a sinking ship and there are sharp rocks that our boat would sink onto, and removing the rocks before fixing the hole just is going to make the ship sink faster
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Pyrsin7@reddit

In said countries it also goes on a scale depending on how much you’re speeding. Going only slightly over means little to no fine. It’s only way they’re going way over that they get those we’ll-deserved six-figure fines.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

That doesn't change my point. This would just lead to police in poorer areas having worse funding (since a significant portion of revenue comes from traffic citations) and then because of that worse conditions for residents of the poorer areas
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Pyrsin7@reddit

Why do you think that the police’s funding does or has to come from fines? Even regardless of anything else, that seems to be the worse way to go about it.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

I don't think it ***should*** but 10-20% of a pd's revenue come from citations
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johnc380@reddit

Well we'll deal with authoritarian ass cops while we're at it then
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

And next we can dream of sugarplum fairies! Obviously if we have police reform then yeah, good policies can't be abused
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LaserBeamHorse@reddit

In Finland it's fixed amount if you drive less than 20 km/h over the speed limit. I think it's 200€ for 15-20km/h and below that it's 140€. If you go like 1-5 km/h over they won't fine you. If you drive over 20 km/h over the speed limit, your fine is based on your income. If it's over 38 km/h, you will be taken to court I believe. Ticket money doesn't go towards department funding here.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

Ticket money in the US does go towards department funding. If that changes then I would absolutely be for this
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fy8d6jhegq@reddit

Oh no, the poor millionaires.
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Free-Database-9917@reddit

If you think my main concern is the millionaires then I'm sorry for not making my point clear. Poorer communities would now get less funding (Since \~10-20% of all of their revenue comes from traffic fines) and as be less able to hire "better" cops (obv its still a cop so better is subjective) and lead to more wrongful incarcerations and police brutality in poorer areas and richer (and usually whiter) areas having less of these incidents. I definitely would prefer for this to not be the reality we live in, but if there is also a change to (well tbf hopefully a change to the whole system but there's no way that's happening anytime soon so we take what we can get) the way that the money is distrbuted at the very minimum, then I can see this as possible
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UnauthorizedFart@reddit

Cop 1: “aw man our dept budget will never be approved!” *Lexus drives by* Cop 2: “Hold my donut”
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TheOrangeTickler@reddit

It makes total sense. Laws and rules apply to everyone, not just rich people.
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MechGryph@reddit

Day fines. They're glorious.
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UseDaSchwartz@reddit

Sure, but it’s all relative…or maybe it’s not in this instance. If you take $100 from someone making $50,000, that could hurt them a lot. If you take $1 million from someone who has $50 million, it doesn’t really matter. Or even $5,000 from someone making a million. …yes I realize the percentages aren’t the same, I’m assuming an increasing percentage.
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Springsstreams@reddit

I’m sorry, someone arbitrarily and unexpectedly taking 1% of someone’s wealth is going to sting lol
View on Reddit #18377095

Neat-Statistician720@reddit

Well then they shouldn’t break the law lol
View on Reddit #18279989

HaphazardFlitBipper@reddit

You have way to much faith in the courts.
View on Reddit #18284866

Neat-Statistician720@reddit

We’re talking about speeding tickets here, the courts are rarely involved and if you get a speeding/parking ticket that’s 100% on you lol
View on Reddit #18285381

HaphazardFlitBipper@reddit

Maybe... or maybe the cop just needed to meet his quota. Last time I got pulled over for speeding, I was supposedly doing 70 in a 55. Cop's tune changed immediately when he saw that I had a dash cam AND a data recorder because we both knew I had not been speeding.
View on Reddit #18308592

ammonium_bot@reddit

> have way to much faith Did you mean to say "too much"? [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
View on Reddit #18299717

Saragon4005@reddit

1 million dollars for a speeding ticket will always hurt. Even if it doesn't change your living situation it doesn't matter getting a massive fine like that has consequences anyways.
View on Reddit #18282060

williwas420@reddit

Then we’d have the money to fix potholes maybe
View on Reddit #18288549

Skrivz@reddit

Money’s not the problem, it’s the people and the organizational structure etc
View on Reddit #18291520

MechGryph@reddit

Except it's not how that works. It's not "Well, you make X a year so we're taking this percentage." Looking at... Say Germany. They look at how bad the offense was. Say speeding. They're going to fine you more if you're going 50 over rather than just 10 over. So they might say, "You have to pay five days." rather than one. Then they look at your total net income from all sources per month. It's not a perfect system cause people still break the law, but tis better than "You both pay $100."
View on Reddit #18283039

LastStar007@reddit

Denmark, Finland, and Germany all have it. In Germany it's called Tagessatz - day sentence. It's a very good start, but the system could use some refinement since the ultra-rich don't have income as we know it.
View on Reddit #18277123

nuke-from-orbit@reddit

Sweden as well.
View on Reddit #18364678

Jomalar@reddit

Yup, in the US if the penalty is a fine, it's not a penalty at all for the rich.
View on Reddit #18260147

The7footr@reddit

Yup- this is why I know many many people who just always drive in the carpool lanes- because even if they do have to pay a $500 ticket once or twice a year (which they never do because the cops here suck), it’s well worth the time saved that they could be working during.
View on Reddit #18276519

UseDaSchwartz@reddit

Riiight…you know a lot of these people…sure.
View on Reddit #18279749

Derkylos@reddit

You don't have to be rich to do the fine maths. I knew people that travelled on certain public transport without paying and just sucked it up and paid the fine when they were caught. They realised that the amount they paid in fines was less than if they paid the daily fare.
View on Reddit #18303908

Saragon4005@reddit

I heard a story where the math may actually check out to just violate the law rather then pay the fee for the fast lane. I think it came out to something like if you get caught every 2 months or less then it's worth not paying for the pass and instead paying the $500 fines.
View on Reddit #18282117

ammonium_bot@reddit

> or less then it's Did you mean to say "less than"? Explanation: If you didn't mean 'less than' you might have forgotten a comma. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
View on Reddit #18282243

The7footr@reddit

Good bot
View on Reddit #18289687

The7footr@reddit

Hey where’s my alphabetical order bot! Jerk bots
View on Reddit #18297555

The7footr@reddit

Oh I believe it. I actually did a similar thing in college. The parking passes to park on campus were around $400 a semester. $35 at the time for a parking violation- would get around 8-10 violations per semester and saved money. If it started getting closer to the $400 I would park off campus (only happened one semester).
View on Reddit #18289660

positivecontent@reddit

Just an inconvenience.
View on Reddit #18277241

erichf3893@reddit

6 figures for speeding? That’s dumb af imo Robbery and assault and stuff, sure
View on Reddit #18298019

MSmasterOfSilicon@reddit

Finland does this. An executive at a big Finnish tech company once got a $175,000 speeding ticket
View on Reddit #18275594

cripflip69@reddit

It's almost like millionaires don't have more money, if the money isn't worth very much to them. I would rather live in the real world.
View on Reddit #18251620

teheditor@reddit

Finland. They check your tax receipts.
View on Reddit #18242335

horror-@reddit

My car tabs (state taxes on cars) are something like 700$/year The ticket is 400$ I'm over a year behind, still haven't been pulled over. If corporate America can break the law and make $50m and paying a 2m fine is the cost of doing business, then I can brake the law for 700$ and paying 400$ is the cost of doing business. Every time a cop pulls in behind me I'm sure I'll be writing a check, but so far I've yet to be pulled over.
View on Reddit #18413550

dexidrone@reddit (OP)

Some of us have to ride dirty sometimes. Toll fines, and expired registration. I got away with it for a while, but the NTTA DOES NOT FUCK AROUND. A warrant for my arrest and a $1700 fine? Fuck me.
View on Reddit #18414518

kenef@reddit

Wasn't this already in place for some traffic infractions in Scandinavian countries? Also, plugging this basic site I made that can tell you exactly this type of calculations (e.g $500 to someone making 20mil/yr has the same financial impact as $1.50 to someone making $60k/yr) - https://www.eatingthecake.com/
View on Reddit #18237844

PowerPigion@reddit

This is super cool, thank you for making this
View on Reddit #18333426

kenef@reddit

Hey no problem, glad you found it useful! I had a couple of instances where I needed to calculate this, and also was learning some basic HTML/CSS/JavaScript at the time so I figured why not make a tool.
View on Reddit #18383246

notheusernameiwanted@reddit

There was an NHL player that got a speeding ticket and got taken to court because he reported have no income. He was a restricted free agent at the time so he wasn't under contract, but his rights were held by his team. I think what ended up happening was that he was forced to pay the fine based on his new much larger contract
View on Reddit #18345107

zbod@reddit

I like the idea/intent... but "career criminals" (including tax-cheats) are very good at hiding their true income with various methods. How do we accurately/fairly track this in practice?
View on Reddit #18382942

Alcorailen@reddit

It's sad that this is a crazy idea. This is the only way to make fines not a poor tax
View on Reddit #18382742

BullBear7@reddit

I think this is a thing in Sweden. Watched some border control show, people were fined X days of their salary.
View on Reddit #18378669

Ok-Original-1460@reddit

What a terrible idea
View on Reddit #18371269

w3st3f3r@reddit

Yes but poor people don’t make the laws rich people do. So get fucked nerd.
View on Reddit #18369881

sleeper_shark@reddit

This ain’t a crazy idea. It’s a very good idea. For a crime, you either go to jail for X days, or pay a fine worth X days of your salary. If you’re making 150€ an hour, instead of a week in prison the govt slaps a fine of 150 x 8 x 5 = 6,000€
View on Reddit #18284902

AdEarly8242@reddit

So somebody who can’t afford a weeks worth of salary should instead go to jail for a week and probably lose their job? Do you own some private prisons or something?
View on Reddit #18286738

sleeper_shark@reddit

lol dude… you realize this measure would overwhelmingly affect wealthy people more than those living paycheck to paycheck… If a speeding ticket is 50$, under this system it would be 50$ for a median income household. If a min wage person earns 30% of the median income, they’d only pay 50$ x 30% = ~17$. A CEO of a private prison taking in 20x the median income would pay 20x the ticket cost, or about 1,000$. Under the current system, the rich owner could just speed and not give a fuck cos 50$ would barely be noticeable to them. 1000$ might sting a bit more and make them think twice about hitting the accelerator.
View on Reddit #18304143

AdEarly8242@reddit

According to your post it should be worth x days of your salary. So somebody making 100 dollars a day and somebody making 1000 dollars a day would each be out of a weeks worth of pay. Except the person making 100 dollars a day has less in savings and would be impacted greater.
View on Reddit #18316022

sleeper_shark@reddit

This is how it’s implemented in countries where it is implemented. I was just giving a hypothetical example, in Finland for example, a speeding tickets the fine is calculated based on a half day and you don’t have the option to go to jail for a half day. For more serious crimes where the fine is much higher, a govt can implement a days in jail or fine system. In the end, if the person is making below average income, the fine would be lower than in the current system, if they’re making above it would be higher. Imagine a fine is 500 dollars for some offence, it would sting the 100 a day person badly, but it would be a minor inconvenience for the 1000 a day person. The day fine system will *raise* the fine for the wealthy, and lower it for the poor… are you some kinda millionaire who doesn’t want this kinda system. And yes, if you commit an offense, you should pay for it. It’s like the old adage, if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
View on Reddit #18357872

patrickfinnegan3883@reddit

I've been saying this for years. When you make above a certain amount, fines just become the cost of doing something.
View on Reddit #18355717

tmmzc85@reddit

Unfortunately in the US fines structured as you imply are considered "unconstitutional" as it's seen as uneven application of the law, even though it's obviously, from the perspective of a poorer citizen, clearly disproportionate.
View on Reddit #18355632

SuperSonicEconomics1@reddit

I think instead of fines for crimes, it should be swift kicks to the genetalia.
View on Reddit #18352112

plumbstem@reddit

I'm glad you posted this here, but this is not a crazy idea: it's a good one.
View on Reddit #18239727

Ok_Apricot_7676@reddit

People who are completely broke will have no reasons not to commit crimes. Fine them nothing because they have no money? This idea is stupid as fuck.
View on Reddit #18274374

trashlikeyourmom@reddit

Most likely there would also be a minimum fine, it wouldn't strictly be based on income.
View on Reddit #18276137

Ok_Apricot_7676@reddit

A minimum fine for people who have no money and resort to crime? Then what?
View on Reddit #18276138

Independent-Cow-4070@reddit

Wait till you hear what goes on now
View on Reddit #18339716

plumbstem@reddit

Right - but that's what we have now.
View on Reddit #18276139

Ok_Apricot_7676@reddit

You commit a crime, you go to jail.
View on Reddit #18276212

thegreatperson2@reddit

Yes let’s send people to jail for 13 mph over on the highway…
View on Reddit #18301648

Ok_Apricot_7676@reddit

If you can't pay the fine, yeah. A week in jail. People have to be accountable for their actions one way or another.
View on Reddit #18302110

ccm596@reddit

Its pretty obviously referring to things that right now would result in a fine
View on Reddit #18283565

plumbstem@reddit

That is true of the "broke people" right now. You just discovered poverty crimes! "What can you take from someone who has nothing?" Sounds like the trailer for a bad movie.
View on Reddit #18276249

Ok_Apricot_7676@reddit

You can take their freedom.
View on Reddit #18276276

plumbstem@reddit

OK. I hear you. I'm just trying to focus on the crazy idea. We are just taking about those crimes (or infractions, as someone pointed out) whose punishment is monetary fine. For crimes where jail is considered...at least on paper...the playing field is level for those who have money and those who don't. This is very simplified, I know but let's just say that it is. The crazy idea is that 10% of your income/net worth (fuckin' whatever) is the same punishment no matter who you are. It's for speeding tickets.
View on Reddit #18277556

Ok_Apricot_7676@reddit

So a broke person could pay absolutely nothing for speeding? How does that solve anything? It seems like a dumb idea that some envious person came up with. They view successful people as evil and anything should be done to take them down a peg.
View on Reddit #18277873

plumbstem@reddit

Nah a totally broke person wouldn't be driving in that case....cause they'd need cash for a car, gas and insurance. You can see how a $100 fine means something different to everyone. The idea is to level the field a bit so the punishment is the same for everyone. It's justice. Our version of justice has been so out of line for so long I think it'll take a while before this makes sense.
View on Reddit #18326358

violet_wings@reddit

Absolutely. It's not just more fair that way; it might actually discourage the wealthy from committing crimes. And side benefit, the money from fines on the wealthy could be thrown at schools, infrastructure, or whatever other local service needs more money.
View on Reddit #18258553

often_drinker@reddit

or better yet gambling and blow! 
View on Reddit #18286390

Steelers711@reddit

Does debt count as negative wealth? Would I get paid to commit crimes in this instance?
View on Reddit #18242943

Kas272190@reddit

I think the proper idea here is income but even then homeless people, stay at home parents, and kids are immune
View on Reddit #18274124

BatJew_Official@reddit

That's pretty much already true tho. If somehow a homeless person gets fined, they already aren't gonna pay it. I'm pretty sure if a kid gets fined for whatever reason it's the liability of the parents, and a stay at home parent still assumably has a spouse or partner that makes money so in both cases you can just use "household income" instead of personal income.
View on Reddit #18303927

Kas272190@reddit

True, so Household income should be the basis then because is lumps in the kids as well
View on Reddit #18338828

Reelix@reddit

If you're paid in stock options, you can be a billionaire with zero income.
View on Reddit #18308207

Kas272190@reddit

True, I cant think of a solution to this can you?
View on Reddit #18338801

savvygirl3821@reddit

Wow, so If a cop has a bad day he can just make sure my family can't eat that month.....what a stupid idea.
View on Reddit #18334263

Asmos159@reddit

also add the repeated fines increase.
View on Reddit #18329118

Richard_Llamaheart@reddit

So if I break the law I get money?
View on Reddit #18328915

philonerd@reddit

Make sure you look up restorative justice and the way it looks. That’s the way to go. No prisons at all.
View on Reddit #18317534

TupperwareConspiracy@reddit

time for the bad news: Much like the IRS losing money by going after the absurdly wealthy the problem is that people with means also have the means to fight the crimes for years and years and years and all this would do is further incentivize the wealthy to fight crimes vs. take a plea bargin which is what the State wants in the first place ​ ...meanwhile - just like the IRS today - it incentivizes the State to go after people who make enough money to be profitable while not having access to the means to really fight it. ​ In short you'd see bakers and brewmakers getting hammered while billionaires still go scot free.
View on Reddit #18314670

Kerensky97@reddit

"If a crime is punished by a fine, it is only a law for poor people."
View on Reddit #18241808

kwijibo44@reddit

Is there one shred of data anyone can point to in support of the claim that people are relatively more likely than poor people to speed or park illegally or break any other laws that are punishable by fines, because they’re cavalier about paying fines? This is quickly becoming shit people on Reddit say, but seems completely detached from the real world.
View on Reddit #18262355

JakScott@reddit

Who cares? The point is it's not fair if one person loses a crippling amount of money and another person loses an amount of money they won't miss, even if it's the same dollar amount. It's about making the punishment for a crime have an equivalent impact on the lawbreaker's life. ​ Additionally, countries with day fines are able to utilize heavier fines for more serious offenses. It's basically the reason Scandinavia has the most humane prison system in the world. If you're not an immediate physical danger, you can pay a fine of a severity that is prorated to your income and avoid prison. In practice, it's one of the reasons Scandinavia has such a low crime rate: they're not putting nonviolent offenders into a system that pumps out hardened criminals like it's a factory. ​ That said, yes. The overwhelming consensus of sociological and economic research indicates that day fine systems deter crime among the wealthy at a significantly higher rate than static fine systems. [Here](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2947196) is a link to a paper from the "American Criminal Law Review" that is a pretty good overview of the position in favor differential fines.
View on Reddit #18272226

kwijibo44@reddit

“Who cares” is right. None of the people who make the claim that flat fines will lead to wealthy folks brazenly breaking the law actually care if it’s true or not. It isn’t.
View on Reddit #18272227

ANONWANTSTENDIES@reddit

How do Elon’s balls taste bro
View on Reddit #18312532

Derkylos@reddit

What about those stories about corporations being fined because their products are unsafe?
View on Reddit #18304217

Deracination@reddit

> Is there one shred of data that supports the claim that wealthy people are relatively more likely than poor people to speed or park illegally or break any other laws that are punishable by fines, because they’re cavalier about paying fines? No one here is making that claim besides the straw man you just created.
View on Reddit #18284210

sl600rt@reddit

Because it's still points on your license. The loss of which would be a major inconvenience for you.
View on Reddit #18279955

CommonwealthCommando@reddit

I actually recall reading a study somewhere that said the opposite was true, that poor people were more likely to receive a fine for motor vehicle offenses.
View on Reddit #18267882

MuffinMan12347@reddit

Are we talking about number of people or percentage? Because I can guarantee you there are a lot more poor people in the world than rich people so if it’s purely the number of people it’s going to be extremely skewed.
View on Reddit #18272052

LastStar007@reddit

Even percentage-wise, it's easier for the cops to bully poor people than rich people.
View on Reddit #18277203

The_Werefrog@reddit

>I don’t consider myself wealthy but I earn enough that a parking or speeding ticket would mean literally nothing to me, but I still avoid breaking the law and getting tickets because it’s not fun to be pulled over or to throw money away at local government. Right, but Steve Jobs was known for parking in handicapped spots so he didn't have to walk as far, despite the lack of a handicap tag.
View on Reddit #18266936

notwutiwantd@reddit

Steve Jobs, the renowned asshole?
View on Reddit #18268295

LastStar007@reddit

Your point? The population of rich people is replete with assholes.
View on Reddit #18277156

kwijibo44@reddit

Are you under the impression that one weird anecdote is data that proves anything?
View on Reddit #18267195

careyious@reddit

Yes, Bezos had his DC mansion remodelled, didn't want to be inconvenienced and parked his car illegally. He incurred $16,000 in fines, but obviously that isn't a deterrent when you're the world's richest man.
View on Reddit #18276177

The_Werefrog@reddit

>"If a crime is punished by a fine, it is only a law for poor people." No, if a crime is punished by a fine, it's legal for a price.
View on Reddit #18266891

Fastfaxr@reddit

I think that's the same thing but agreed either way.
View on Reddit #18271546

bigbronze@reddit

It’s wording it so it doesn’t sound bad for poor people
View on Reddit #18304005

OwnCantaloupe4543@reddit

I like this quote!
View on Reddit #18262779

curtmcd@reddit

We have a point system where everyone loses their license after a few infringements.
View on Reddit #18306798

Far-Philosopher573@reddit

https://youtu.be/g-k0LF_97k8?si=rGE8MTA_L4vAd-g7 I agree! Fine has to work also as some kind of mental stopper. So the fine have  to give damage to every person who commited crime.. 
View on Reddit #18300965

carrionpigeons@reddit

We shouldn't be reducing everything to money at all. It doesn't matter how you do it, it turns crime into something wealthy people are allowed to pay for. Making it into a percentage also means rich people can incentivize poor people to commit the crimes on their behalf by paying the smaller fine. Changing the rules to something simple always means more loopholes. The adversarial nature of the law vs people's creativity means you can't have a simple, effective system.
View on Reddit #18300366

KatDevsGames@reddit

Sweden absolutely does this for loads of offenses. You see it a lot in traffic citations.
View on Reddit #18300189

AJ-Murphy@reddit

Ok... Assuming the legal system doesn't change at all. I think the state would actually lose money because lawyers would be flat out incentivize to only go for wealthier clients cuz their pricing structure would have to adjust as well. [Also you legalized murder...](https://youtu.be/Az65DE5DiAA?si=lgAczJzDy4TTJao9)
View on Reddit #18298807

jmora13@reddit

Socialist
View on Reddit #18296840

ndc4051@reddit

Jokes on you. I have a negative net worth so the government would have to pay me a fine.
View on Reddit #18295203

sl600rt@reddit

Fines should be abolished. Except when it's direct restitution to the victim, and the state can never be the victim. If the punishment is a fine. Then, it's only illegal for the poor and middle classes. Companies shouldn't be fined. The ones in charge should be imprisoned. Unless they can prove that despite their efforts. The crime happened without their knowledge.
View on Reddit #18279871

AdEarly8242@reddit

So serious question, What should the punishment for speeding be? Jail time? Loss of license? Because both of those things are going to be more damaging to a poor person than a $150 fine.
View on Reddit #18286663

sl600rt@reddit

Points on license. Loss of license is serious enough for most people. Without the revenue incentive the municipal level police won't enforce moving violations except to keep the chaos to acceptable levels and to get the worst offenders.
View on Reddit #18293810

Shacuras@reddit

Already a thing, at least in Germany. Your fines are calculated in "Tagessätzen" which means "Amount of money you make in a day". So you will get a fine for 30 days or something, which can be a LOT of money in some cases. Good system, I like it
View on Reddit #18293656

jayzfanacc@reddit

Counterpoint: all people should have equality under the law, as is directed by the 14th Amendment. >…No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; *nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws*. 14AS1, emphasis mine
View on Reddit #18293322

DabIMON@reddit

Wrong sub?
View on Reddit #18290949

troppofrizzante@reddit

This is not crazy at all, nor unpopular, nor you should see your way out. But, to be fair, fines do not exist to enforce the illegality of a crime. They mostly exist because rich people don't want the poor to share the priviledge of parking your car where you want, or ignoring red lights and speed limits. Punishments that were actually meant to punish the offender are usually the "material" ones, like the withdrawal of the driving license, vehicle collection and jail. I'm not saying fines shouldn't be a thing at all, but fines not calculated on one's wealth are just prices.
View on Reddit #18239504

bassistciaran@reddit

I dont know if they have this everywhere else but I get points on my license for each infraction. Speeding is 3 points and if you get 12, its a 6 month driving ban. Any points expire 2-3 years after issued. I've never cared much for the monetary value of the fine, but at one stage I had 9 points for about 4 months and it was the slowest I ever drove.
View on Reddit #18244069

troppofrizzante@reddit

We also have a point system for your driving license here in Italy: * you start with 20 points; * you lose -1/-10 points with infractions; * you gain +1/+2 points for "clean years"; * maximum is 30 points; * if it reaches 0 you lose it and go back to driving school like if you never had one. I find it much more useful than monetary fines, both as a concept and effect-wise. Here in Italy parking spots have colour-coded paint lines: white if it's free, blue if it's paid, and so on. Parking spots for disabled people have yellow lines: more than once I've heard them be called "gold lines" by those who, like me, say that "a fine is a price". No, my dear spoilt rich, that's not your premium spot with 100x times the price of mine, that reserved spot is in a easier position for a reason and you need to be afraid of retaking driving school all over again. Too bad that's just -2 points. Nice point system you have as well by the way. From?
View on Reddit #18258139

bassistciaran@reddit

I'm in Ireland actually, I had a feeling this wasn't just us! Unfortunately there's no points for parking violations here, there really should be but there'd be too many driving bans and the whole country would cease to function.
View on Reddit #18281684

BigBlueMountainStar@reddit

My ex used to say she could guess your political leanings (UK) based on how you thought speeding tickets should be punished. Basically follows what you said about the rich can afford to pay cash, so a conservative (right wing, more typically supported by the wealthy to protect their wealth) would support fines. Labour (left wing) was typically supported by the working classes who could afford less and so would support points on the license.
View on Reddit #18244920

heybabalooba@reddit

I wish I could tun my business like this, an to an extent I sorta do, the wealthier the client the more I’ll charge
View on Reddit #18277822

snowdrone@reddit

If you have negative net worth, then you are paid?
View on Reddit #18241793

Maleficent-Art-5745@reddit

That's the point I think is dumb, so essentially those on the government dole are just going to be free to break any rule because they won't pay anything...
View on Reddit #18244136

careyious@reddit

Why not just... Keep the same minimum lmao.
View on Reddit #18276477

parkerthegreatest@reddit

Then do this with a set base. Like no lower the x for certain crime
View on Reddit #18252069

Maleficent-Art-5745@reddit

I mean, that's fine. I just don't see the point. Are rich people getting a bunch of fines bc they're so cheap? This seems like a solution where there is no problem, unless it's taken from the stance of, "don't fine the poor". Which OP pretty clearly meant.
View on Reddit #18252989

snowdrone@reddit

You can also be millions of dolalrs in debt on paper, just like Trump was in his early years (and might still be). It's another idea that screws the upper middle class. The truly rich have ways to be poor on paper.
View on Reddit #18252958

Glum_Doubt_9092@reddit

The problem is then police have much more incentive to very strictly enforce the law on richer people and let poorer people slide.
View on Reddit #18272985

MuffinMan12347@reddit

I remember reading about a millionaire that would park anywhere he wanted because the cost of a fine was completely worth the luxury of not giving a shit of where he park.
View on Reddit #18271993

ryan_the_leach@reddit

Rich people would pay poor people to do their crimes.
View on Reddit #18267964

embarrassed_error365@reddit

If I pay someone to murder, I can’t be found guilty of the crime, right?? 🤓
View on Reddit #18271962

Marsigan@reddit

*Homeless people going infinite crimes*
View on Reddit #18270822

embarrassed_error365@reddit

If the only punishment is fines, then infinite petty crimes.
View on Reddit #18271824

_saiya_@reddit

Guess who just gets fined again and again and who escapes by bringing because the bribe is far too small than the fine amount. It'll promote corruption unless you have a very morally robust population.
View on Reddit #18271458

Imajzineer@reddit

And it should *hurt*.
View on Reddit #18237930

Mead_and_You@reddit

That's a terrible fucking idea. Guy is poor, so he commits some crime to get money. He gets caught, so you *hurt* him financially. You think he's gonna be like "Welp, that's enough crime for me, thanks"? No. He's gonna turn to crime again, except you've made getting caught much more costly, so he is more likely to use violence if it is necessary to prevent capture. We need to have a conversation about what we actually want justice to accomplish: Retribution or rehabilitation? Vengeance is a fool's game.
View on Reddit #18263932

Imajzineer@reddit

You're arguing about something completely different. Whether or not a particular punishment is just in the first place is not the same issue as whether the punishment should be fitting when it *is*.
View on Reddit #18264497

Szriko@reddit

The problem is that even if you make the fine scale to what someone has, it still hurts more the less you have.
View on Reddit #18268767

Imajzineer@reddit

Yes, but, again ... the debate as to whether and why *anyone* should find themselves in that position (and what we're gonna *do* about it, once we admit that they *shouldn't*) is a *different* one.
View on Reddit #18271374

manieldansfield@reddit

No.
View on Reddit #18267172

Exciting-Ad5204@reddit

Days as a slave as a punishment. The US Constitution allows for it.
View on Reddit #18266376

Avionix2023@reddit

No. Because poor people could behave like complete assholes with no real consequences
View on Reddit #18265780

WearDifficult9776@reddit

Absolutely. The fine should be high enough that it stings. If the penalty is a flat fine then the law only applies to poor people
View on Reddit #18264454

Responsible-End7361@reddit

For corporations too!
View on Reddit #18262682

National_Medium9@reddit

No.  Just look at how complicated taxes are and translate that to these fines. If you thought tax had loopholes, imagine the amount of wealth fraud youll witness through dumping your wealth in offshore accounts, family members, friends, undisclosed assets, hell, unrealized gains, crypto, etc.  And also realize that just because it has desired intentions, in reality what more likely will happen is more and more people will be unwilling or demoralized to work for anything aside the essentials for survival. In America a lot of people already live like that, and yet our laws are set to be equal punishment. The new freedom isnt going to be financial freedom, itll be live poor af, drive a beater, live in your car, speed all you want, park whereever, fuck it man, you are free
View on Reddit #18262627

mazzicc@reddit

The problem with this is always definition of wealth. Tons of super rich people don’t actually “make” money, so you have to define it in a way that accounts for their illiquid assets, but doesn’t also punish a pensioner who is barely getting by on bills and healthcare, but owns their $1m home that they paid for 50 years ago and has just appreciated. It’s not an insolvable problem but it’s not as simple as it seems at face value.
View on Reddit #18262551

TheApathyParty3@reddit

I've been saying this for years.
View on Reddit #18241521

National_Medium9@reddit

Yea and its a bad idea and always will be
View on Reddit #18262258

sonicjesus@reddit

You get pulled over speeding, you pay a $350 fine, get some points on your license, your insurance goes up. Do it again, you lose your license. Rich people pay a $2500 fine and continue on as always. I have a very wealthy commuter friend, that asshole you see in the BMW passing all traffic as though it is standing still, the $19K he pays in fines is simply the cost of doing business, and for him to slow down and not run red lights would only cost him more in the long run. Your ticket just cost you a weeks pay, he didn't even lose three hours wages. So yes, your obvious objection is well noted by all, making this in fact a well supported opinion worthless to this sub and completely irrelevant. As you already knew.
View on Reddit #18261692

MageKorith@reddit

Percentage of wealth is still going to affect people disproportionately. The insanely rich might be fined more money, but that 5...10...whatever percent of their wealth is less likely going to ruin their life than the middle-class person who is barely making their mortgage payments. It would possibly also incentivize some sort of organized crime system where you get the ultra poor to take the fall for percentage-fine crimes and the organization comes out ahead.
View on Reddit #18261669

John_Fx@reddit

Got the crazy part right with a dash of stupid.
View on Reddit #18261076

Jaepheth@reddit

And fines for financial crimes or corporate misconduct should START at the amount of profit made because of, or during the period of malfeasance.
View on Reddit #18259569

MobiusCowbell@reddit

All fines should be replaced with community service.
View on Reddit #18242891

Maleficent-Art-5745@reddit

Good luck getting them to do that. I like an option of CS, but most won't show up. Then what, jail for a fine...?
View on Reddit #18244182

MobiusCowbell@reddit

yeah, why not? what happens if you don't pay a fine currently? jail? limited privileges like not being able to renew drivers license/vehicle registration, etc.
View on Reddit #18245270

Maleficent-Art-5745@reddit

Nah, not jail for most types of fines unless it's court issued. Likely yes for the rest, which most reasonable people won't run into. Do fines suck? Of course, I've gotta a ton of parking tickets for 2 hour parking while watching sports at a friend's. But it isn't like I didn't know the risk, there are signs every 30 feet.
View on Reddit #18253130

MobiusCowbell@reddit

Getting lots of fines and having lots of unpaid fines are different things though.
View on Reddit #18256818

Maleficent-Art-5745@reddit

Well, if you get them and don't pay them, that still results in the same. You won't be arrested for too many parking tickets. I'm sorry, in no universe will I feel bad for someone who abuses the rest of society in a way that they've deemed fine-able and then doesn't pay for their transgressions. If the fine is bogus, fight it.
View on Reddit #18256974

MobiusCowbell@reddit

So the same would happen if you didn't should for community service vs didn't pay a fine. What's the issue? What are you trying to argue about?
View on Reddit #18257682

Dave_A480@reddit

So then if you have no income you can commit whatever offenses you want without consequence? No.
View on Reddit #18243456

BlueberryTyrant@reddit

You can easily keep the current fines as minimums. Let them scale up, but not down.
View on Reddit #18257011

Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit

First of all they said "wealth" not income, those are two very very different things. I'm broke as fuck, but I own a home, and have some somewhat valuable things I've inherited. Second, there are other ways of penalizing people that don't involve money. For example I have no issue with someone being given community service as an option if they don't have much wealth to pay with. Stop trying to throw an entire idea out the window just because the people getting fucked over the most by society would actually benefit for once... unlike right now where its basically if you're rich there is no "consequence" which is exactly what you're pretending to be against. Apart from points or a license seizure (which their lawyers can argue in court), a rich person doesn't care about any fines.
View on Reddit #18251435

Dave_A480@reddit

Traffic fines are a largely irrelevant issue though - we don't really \*care\* if someone speeds (and literally everyone does), that's why the penalty is what it is... Also I strongly dispute the notion that people with no wealth/income are being 'fucked over by society'. It's usually 'by themselves' that is more accurate...
View on Reddit #18251722

Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit

"its usually themselves" ...you are very very out of touch, living a conveniently naive and privileged view. What you said is simply false, and not up for debate. Yes people can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" but to still be thinking that they are on a level playing field as someone well off is simply absurd. Do some reading bud, admitting to your privilege doesn't take away from your accomplishments, it just admits that others may have additional hurdles.
View on Reddit #18252148

Heckin_good_time@reddit

Establish also a universal basic income
View on Reddit #18249898

IndianaHorrscht@reddit

Could be sorted out by a lower limit, exceptions for capital crimes etc.
View on Reddit #18249862

Akul_Tesla@reddit

So with every sort of policy or decision you make there will be a trade-off Immediately I'm going to tell you one of the trade-offs with this is they're going to be framing people for their crimes They will hire a driver and make them speed and then fully blame the driver They will make themselves the beneficiary of holding companies but make it so that they don't actually have wealth legally in their name They will want to weaken the police who will be incentivized to focus on them They will want to corrupt the police to get out of it My suggestion instead would be to do a time-based punishment
View on Reddit #18254590

Chad_Broski_2@reddit

Percentage of a person's wealth is so damn hard to enforce, though. Hard to objectively say how much someone's net worth is Instead, I'd say use tax penalties. Whatever local court issued the fine will file a simple form with the IRS and then the IRS bumps up your tax bill by X% this year depending on severity. Higher earners are affected more, while lower-income people just lose out on some of their tax refunds
View on Reddit #18251913

Fortunate-Clue5926@reddit

> "Fining poor people is evil" Are we seriously at the point now where we deem the poor immune to villainous intent? Are criminals merely victims of capitalism? Sure, go build your poorly construed utopia and see how long it is before you're being shanked from one end and mugged from the other.
View on Reddit #18251357

Enginerdad@reddit

Good luck getting politicians to agree on how to define somebody's wealth
View on Reddit #18251321

gotziller@reddit

Ya then all the extremely rich billionaires that technically own nothing can pay their 0 dollar fines.
View on Reddit #18250203

TUAHIVAA@reddit

so, how do you determine a person's wealth? there are so many ways to look poor but you can be very rich...
View on Reddit #18249811

dzsolti@reddit

Rich people having no real consequence of a fine is not good, but "fining poor people is not only stupid, but evil" is kind of a stretch. Nobody is forcing poor people to break the rules, but the same, relatively small fine incentivizes the rich to ignore the rules. Also, instead of fines there could be other, more equal payment, like X hours of community service, but for example that would punish the rich more (assuming the rich person could make money/ enjoy his life while the bum would just sit around uselessly anyways)
View on Reddit #18248517

Royal-Inflation7234@reddit

Wait until ya deal with police that lie and false file with lawyers to make their income go insane.
View on Reddit #18247319

Svenray@reddit

It doesn't matter if the fine is $1 or $1 million when rich people can just lawyer up and get out of everything.
View on Reddit #18246380

winkler1@reddit

Anssi Vanjoki, a Nokia executive, was fined a significant amount for speeding in Finland. In 2002, he was fined €116,000 (equivalent to $103,500) for driving 75 kilometers per hour in a 50-kph zone on his motorcycle. The fine was based on his income, as Finnish traffic fines are proportional to the offender's income. Similarly, in 2023, a Finnish businessman was fined €121,000 (approximately $130,000) for driving 30km/h in a 50km/h zone, and the fine was calculated based on the "day fine" system, where half of the offender's daily income is multiplied by a certain number of days, increasing according to the severity of the offense. These cases illustrate the income-based approach to calculating speeding fines in Finland.
View on Reddit #18244688

c3534l@reddit

One view of justice is that its restorative, that the penalty should make the victim whole. Another views it as punishment or retribution. Often times, in say civil cases, the idea is compensation: you accidentally killed your neighbors sheep, so you must buy him a new one. What the amount is and when its appropriate depends on how you think we should deal with a particular crime. If I litter, am I committing a moral wrong to be punished, for society to seeks its revenge against me, and to satiate its victims? Or must litterers be forced to compensate society by funding the clean-up efforts? If you think its the former, then fines are just a punishment and should be measured against the hardships they create for the perpetrator. But if its the latter, what matters is that they undo their mistake and if that's too much of a hardship for them, then they should have thought of that when they committed the crime.
View on Reddit #18244525

Maleficent-Art-5745@reddit

What metric do you use to calculate someone's wealth? There really isn't an actual standard formula, as some take into account unrealized gains (home value, stock value). Is there an epidemic of rich people breaking the law that makes this worthwhile? I'm assuming this whole post comes from the premise of poorer people having a larger burden, comparatively. While true, in a society where fines aren't arbitrary, those fines were earned. They didn't just get slapped on for no reason. Typically those fines are set by elected officials whom represent the "will" of their constituents. If someone is wracking up a lot of fines, it sounds like they need to evaluate their choices. Example - 1. say you're fined for parking on a street with no pass. Harmless right? Well no, because it's likely that street has reserved parking passes for the local residents and you parking there prevents them from parking near their home. 2. Fined for a headlight out? Why not just have them fix it? Actually a lot of places do now have ordinances where you just prove you fixed the faulty equipment and the fine is dropped. Otherwise, your presenting a danger to everyone else around you. There are dumb fines like automated speeding tickets, etc. But if you actually are issued a fine, 9/10 times you've earned it.
View on Reddit #18244042

Mutant_Llama1@reddit

Then you're not just fining them for the crime. You're fining them for being rich. Fines should be reparative, not punitive.
View on Reddit #18240702

Ordinary-Broccoli-41@reddit

"Fines should be reparative" would be better luck ending enforcement of traffic law. Not like there's any damage if someone competent behind the wheel goes 200 down the motorway. Punitive makes sense if you're trying to stop people from speeding... And it only works if the amount makes a difference, someone making $20/hour is a lot more hurt by a $200 fine than bezos would be
View on Reddit #18242061

Mutant_Llama1@reddit

Or do something that makes a difference regardless of status. Instead of just adding extra penalties just for making more.
View on Reddit #18243891

Infamous_Pineapple69@reddit

What % ? Because if it's 10% for me rightnow that's 150$ for me last Wednesday it was .06$ so if I start speeding after I pay all my bills and stuff. I'm good to go? Or is it based on income because it varies for me week to week. So, would cops have your last annual reported income on file? Then if I made a career change and become an intern or something but I'm paying last years income in tickets that fucks me. Or if I work mostly for cash under the table then I fuck them. It gets complicated quick is the point
View on Reddit #18243829

kio36@reddit

And them you'll regret that idea having fines..
View on Reddit #18241940

ShamefulWatching@reddit

Oh absolutely! 100% agree. Anything with a monetary fine.
View on Reddit #18239742

herbys@reddit

Crimes don't get fines, infractions do.
View on Reddit #18239617