How was life for Non-Muslims in the Ottoman-Balkans?
Posted by Alarmed_Business_962@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 20 comments
I'm an Ethiopian and an Orthodox Christian. Our lives in Islamic sultanates were... not that good. I want to know how life was for a Non-Muslim in the Ottoman-Balkans in those 500 years.
In Ethiopia, for example, it was obliged for non-muslims to wear special clothing that would make them recognisable, similar to the ''David-star'' (which actually was inspired by Islamic practices). It did not stop with that, we also had to wear massive crosses and bells so Muslims would know that a ''dirty disbeliever'' was approaching them. Happily, there were no deportations... except for pogroms and some ''fires''. And then you had the rules, like that we could not own guns, we could not fight Muslims and other discriminatory laws.
Was life similar in the Ottoman-Balkans or were the Ottomans milder in their treatment?
Fun fact: We, Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, too dislike the Ottomans. They used to ''bully'' us in a similar manner to what you Balkans had to endure: Slave-raids. Though their conquest failed and they eventually left the Horn of Africa. Though we were unable to drive them off, due to... you know... we thought it was a good idea to mostly use spears against the Ottoman musketeers and canons. If they planned an invasion in a similar manner they tried in Europe, we would probably have been a lil screwed.
No-Joke-6688@reddit
Forced conversion is not possible in Islam.
Quran Bakara Sura ayat 253-257.
And here the will of Ebu Feth Fatih Sultan Mehmet from 1453, which was also law in the Ottoman Empire.
Here is the original in Turkish.
Böyle bileler…
and here google translated, I don't know many old Turkish words myself.
They know like this…
Sharia makes no distinctions between religious people. Right is right and wrong is wrong. christians were like muslims. they also paid the same taxes.
alpav@reddit
Yeah Ottomans were the pinnacle of piety and following their religion doing things such as murdering their own brothers, sex harems and general degeneracy.
Low-Equipment-7629@reddit
that was happening in the palace nad among elite of İstanbul we didn't had such things in the Bosanska Krajina.
ross-geller@reddit
Christians were allowed to keep every institution they had. Must be such awful times. For example, when Ottomans finally took Crete from Venetians, they reinstated the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine the horrors? Must have been terrible.
Canadabestclay@reddit
Perhaps the greatest thing for the empire would’ve been if a group like the young Turk or a more enlightened sultan had gained power in 1840 in the wake of the liberal revolutions in Europe. Abolish the jannisary corps, embrace European military practice, and build a limited parliament for grievances to be aired and better representation among the different people. It’s highly unlikely I feel but thinking about how many missed opportunities we see throughout history and how easy things could’ve different is something impossible not to do.
Low-Equipment-7629@reddit
Janissary Corps were abolished in 1828 but since mid 1600s people that join to corps were mostly volunteersd in constart to previous devshirme system
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
Bosnias Muslim made over 90% of the land owners as Austria/Hungary over took Bosnia and over 90% couldn’t read nor write.
What a mighty empire imagine, let alone the huge taxes and the slave army from stolen kids
Low-Equipment-7629@reddit
My ancestors were also those land owners. But i see we have done much better despite being literally the frontier of the Empire for many centuries and having higher literary people rate. In Anatolia only 3-5% of the people could read and write. You Orthodox Serbs should have been thankful to your Begs instead of being rebellious.
rosa4321@reddit
It's complicated, but compared to the other empires it could have been much worse. Where Spanish conquered everyone now speaks Spanish and is Catholic, where Arabs conquered almost everyone now speaks Arabic and is Muslim. In the Balkans even Muslims speak their native languages, they don't speak Turkish. Also treatment of Catholics and Orthodox differed substantially, while most of the Orthodox populations stayed Orthodox to this day (like Serbs or Greeks), Catholics (Albanians and Bosniaks who were schismatics as well as Catholics but under jurisdiction of the Catholic Church) are now majority Muslim.
Sarkotic159@reddit
The Catholics of Bosnia-Herzegovina remained Catholic though?
Low-Equipment-7629@reddit
Muslim population was catholic too or heretic. Orthodox on the other hand mostly brought for farm work from Serbia. Mostly to Northern Bosnia because it is flat plains coımpared to rest of the country
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
So many ottoman apologists on here, making so many excuses for the centuries of oppression our people had to endure. I don’t know what’s worse…..the Turks making excuses or the European liberals wanting to shit on the west and talk about how enlightened the Ottoman Empire was.
Low-Equipment-7629@reddit
well well well Europeans and Ottomans weren't too different actually.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
I am from Romania, and two regions (Moldavia and Wallachia) were never really part of the empire but rather vassal states who were ruled by a Greek puppet appointed by the sultan. The puppet would extort the populace of the country of all possible wealth and send it to Istanbul so he could be given another term. Otherwise it wasn’t as bad as compared to other places under ottomans, here Muslims were banned from moving to or owning land, never were built any mosques except for the cities of Braila, Giurgiu and Turnu Magurele which were given as some kind of concessions. This system lasted from roughly 1721 to 1821.
Low-Equipment-7629@reddit
As i know in Banja Luka, Serbs were peasants in the villages and servants in the cities. Austro_Hungarian concensus after transfer of Bosnia to AH also makes this story seem true. My family was a Muslim family living in Banja Luka and i have been told story of how Serbs were rural peasants working in the lands of Urban Muslim Population.
FishermanBig558@reddit
In Bosnia, Christian’s were forbidden from wearing anything other than black. Christian’s we’re not allowed to have churches that were higher than mosques in size. You had to be careful practicing Christmas. For example we wake up really early to say Lord’s Prayer on Christmas Day. Like 6am early. This is because in ottoman times you had to hide your Christianity. Could be bad for you if you didn’t. So you would get up super early to celebrate Christmas because the muslims wouldn't be up that early and wouldn't notice it. There is still a church in Sarajevo that was in ottoman times a secret Serb orthodox church.
Progress_Away@reddit
I want to say your wrong but not very educated on this yet, but muslims wake up around that time to pray Fajr, maybe most prayed and went right back to sleep. this also depends on the times of prayer during christmas time and how what time the sun rose.
Cefalopodul@reddit
Payed more taxes, were not allowed to walk on the street if Muslims were coming from the opposite direction (literally had to go in the middle of the road until they passed), Akinji raids, pogroms (see Moscopole)
No-Joke-6688@reddit
I was in Bucharest for Easter 2018. i went to a church with friends for easter mass. outside the church were paintings of a legend ines christians who should be forced to convert to islam. if he didn't do that, according to the paintings, his 7 sons would have been beheaded and thrown into the bosphorus. I jokingly asked my friends if they had plans for me. i took part in the ceremony with candle and walk around the church. since the church was close to my friends house i went there 2 days later with a friend. i wanted to learn more and met the priest. great, intelligent and very nice man by the way. we talked for almost 2 hours and he said he likes my honesty and he will also answer very openly and honestly. He said you can believe me or not frate. These are very old buildings. There were no newspapers, no televisions, and no internet. many people could not read, so pictures were very important. we weren't exactly friendly to each other back then so everyone did their best to keep their sheep together.
now for your answer, i can't tell if it's true or false what you say i wasn't there. but what i can tell you is It is forbidden in Islam and the Ottoman legislation did not allow it either. What we read today or read for the last century was what was presented to us.
lauracamus@reddit
What he said isn't forbidden in islam at all.
Pay more taxes = jizyah (https://quran.com/9/29)
Have to move to the side of the street to let muslims pass (https://sunnah.com/muslim:2167a)
Raids were literally how Muhammad started gaining power, he raided Meccan merchant caravans and took spoils and slaves like at Nakhla which eventually led to the battle of Badr