anything over 400hp (in a supercar) is useless?

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RPL79@reddit

I have a stock 500hp AWD and it’s perfect

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DumbSimp1@reddit

If your not trying to break tge law then yes

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FWD_to_twin_turbo@reddit

It depends, 400hp in my pickup gets used 60% of the time, 650hp in my semi truck gets used 100% of the time, 610Hp in my old Mark II was WILD on the streets.

I think 600-700hp is as much as you'd feasibly want to have under your control on a street driven car, and surprisingly, I'd dial it DOWN for any sort of track that includes a corner unless you either have top knotch driver aids or an understanding of vehicular dynamics. I hovered around 500hp on track.

And before I get the "why do you want 600+hp on the street bleh" comments, just know I was in my 20s with a 1JZ in 2010, you know EXACTLY what I needed it for.

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honeybakedpipi@reddit

I mean, you’re wrong. Simply.

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gldnhaze@reddit (OP)

I understand your position, but as you might have observed, its a quote from someone else. Please read the post mate

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AngryScottish@reddit

"useless" needs clarification. If there's too much power, the car will struggle to put it down, even those AWD nerds.

But, if you can't drive a 100hp Miata around a race track, you won't be able to drive a 700hp Mustang around a race track much faster.

Also, car weight plays a huge role. My 2400lb car on the low 500whp map pulls on Huracans without much effort, it's ran neck to neck with a 900whp 488. So, you don't always need a ton of power.

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Smitty_Oom@reddit

There's so many variables that simple horsepower isn't a useful measure. 350 HP in a CRX is very difficult than 360 HP in an F350.

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JahHappy@reddit

Yeah 350 in my old STI was nothing, 300 in my buddies Miata is a completely different story lol.

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gldnhaze@reddit (OP)

what'd he do to manage 300 in a miata lol

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freelance-lumberjack@reddit

I have 300 in a VW rwd. It's about as much as it'll handle even with sticky tires

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Zappiticas@reddit

I used to own a 95 Miata and made over 300 at the crank with just a turbo kit, meth injection, and a tune. It made 289 at the rear wheels.

Also ran 12.3 in a 1/4 mile

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infinitee775@reddit

I've seen a Miata with a Corvette power train in it, and it still cut down 50 pounds 😳

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-crackling-@reddit

Holy shit I would love to take that thing for a drive, I bet it zooms

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Plenty-Industries@reddit

This is a cool build log to watch

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaeETZPdShsN8XtwhDKS-iVJZ38lKFKI9&feature=shared

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0-UJLYGIZg

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ChemicalEscapes@reddit

How about a hellcat Miata?

(Skip to about the 6 min mark)

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-crackling-@reddit

lmao 700hp miata! That thing rips!

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lique_madique@reddit

Realistically that’s achievable with ethanol and forced induction. My K20 makes 350 to the wheels with just a bolted on supercharged, exhaust, and tune.

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LotusofSin@reddit

Hell my buddy slapped a turbo out of a cummin into his Miata and it somehow made 225 HP, granted it won’t last long.

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FleetAdmiralWiggles@reddit

Literally just throw an ebay turbo kit at it. You'll make 300whp for a while before something blows up.

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JahHappy@reddit

I'm honestly not sure of the specifics, he's got a swap of some kind and it's supercharged. Who knows if it's actually 300 but in that car I took his word for it because it's scary lol.

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infinite012@reddit

350 whp in the STI is just about the perfect amount for daily driving imo.

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turbodude69@reddit

bro, 160hp/100ft/lb in a crx is fun, esp when all the power is at 6500-8500rpm i can't imagine what it'd be with twice that.

i would guess a LOT of understeer and torquesteer. i don't think i'd ever want more than 200-250hp in a crx. so a K20 or k24 would be perfect. i hope i get to swap one in one day.

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deformo@reddit

Please let me know where this 350hp crx is.

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KnightmareOnPC@reddit

You could build a 1000+hp crx these days if you really wanted to. The aftermarket for K20/24 is robust to say the least.

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deformo@reddit

Yes. I know. I just want the 350hp crx. Which is more realistic, reasonable, and would be fun as fuck. Shred sled.

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KnightmareOnPC@reddit

Yea that would be a riot. Could even stay NA with that power goal and have absurd throttle response.

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GTAdriver1988@reddit

Right, I have a 3500 dual wheel ram with a cummins and I think it makes like 600 hp but it's slow but great at hauling shit. I have a 1994 trans am with 350 hp and I can run low 12s to high 11s in a quarter mile and it's much faster than my work truck.

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slackwaresupport@reddit

my car has around 1150 and it drives just fine.

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sonofteflon@reddit

Pics please. 😂

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slackwaresupport@reddit

https://i.imgur.com/jOMuNfY.mp4

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angrytortilla@reddit

That's one soapy rear end

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slackwaresupport@reddit

this is her when she was wrapped and dirty as fuck. https://i.imgur.com/pJ5GUkU.jpeg

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angrytortilla@reddit

Dirty girl

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zippster77@reddit

Right, but the question is, how often are you using that full 1150? My car has 450 and drives great too, but I can’t stay fully on the gas past 3rd gear without breaking a lot of laws.

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slackwaresupport@reddit

good bit. i live in a large city, lots of mustangs, dodges etc wanna try.

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SlowRollingBoil@reddit

So you illegally street race. 🙄

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theBdub22@reddit

Not excusing street racing, but no one buys a sports car to drive on the street to obey 100% of traffic laws all the time.

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SlowRollingBoil@reddit

I mean...I think my negative 16 votes would say that people are agreeing that illegally street racing is fine. I guess this sub doesn't believe in the mantra of "take it to a race track instead of endangering the lives of everyone around you".

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theBdub22@reddit

Not everyone has "take it to a race track" money lying around. There is a serious difference between doing a pull in a wide open area with little or no traffic and living your life a quarter mile at a time like you are Dominic Toretto.

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SlowRollingBoil@reddit

I can agree that a 20MPH to 100MPH pull on an empty highway isn't the end of the world. I get it.

That being said, if you don't have "take it to the track" money then what the fuck are you driving? Most tracks charge about $200 for a HPDE and we're talking about 400HP+ cars...

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theBdub22@reddit

The nearest track to me is a 6 hour drive

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SlowRollingBoil@reddit

Is that the excuse you tell the police officers or the insurance companies or the people you accidentally slam into?

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theBdub22@reddit

Grow up lol

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SlowRollingBoil@reddit

I've gathered that. This interaction actually convinced me to unsubscribe from this subreddit and I'm sure I won't be missed. I've always been into cars but never fit into "car culture" and I think it's because I'm not....like the rest of the people on this sub, I'll say to be nice.

Best of luck out there.

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terroristteddy@reddit

I mean, you are condescending, so there's that.

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SlowRollingBoil@reddit

That's a legit good joke. I think it's justified when my stance is "don't endanger the lives of innocent drivers while you street race" but agree to disagree I guess.

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thingamajig1987@reddit

that's the thing about gears, you can use the full power without going the full speed.

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gldnhaze@reddit (OP)

sorry, i shouldve been more specific in the post

looks like you have a lot of street races mostly on the highway right? (beautiful cars btw)

do you go on mountain roads etc with your high hp car?

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Use_Your_Brain_Dude@reddit

You don't have to rev the hell out of it on mountain roads. Just go into a higher gear where you're at lower rpm and your car won't put down the full power.

The real dangerous part on mountain roads is if you have a quick spooling turbo and don't realize you're about to hit boost in the middle of a turn. In my experience (mid-engine cars), if you stay on the gas, you understeer off the road. If you let go of the gas, you get snap oversteer and fly off the road... 91 MR2 turbo RIP. I wasn't injured thankfully. It's hard to find the sweet spot when your car goes from Honda Civic torque at low rpm to Corvette torque when the turbo spools up.

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slackwaresupport@reddit

this ^. turbo finally spooling mid turn is dangerous.

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slackwaresupport@reddit

no mountains around. just streets.

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Ranseur67@reddit

I’ve heard that too. I think there is truth to it. Pretty sure race car drivers will tell you anything over 400hp (or 400ft/lbs) is pointless on civilian roads. Now having said that, I have driven a few cars up to 455hp and I can only feel the difference of each 100hp increment. Like my 270hp ats felt pretty similar to my 340hp trans am. The difference is probably felt greater in weight and drive train.

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SIKhDaddy91@reddit

I have a 4,400 sedan with 650 whp and I completely disagree.

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xXbrosoxXx@reddit

Ctsv?

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SIKhDaddy91@reddit

Yes

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xXbrosoxXx@reddit

😎

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-crackling-@reddit

Damn, which car? Challenger?

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SIKhDaddy91@reddit

Full bolt-on 2017 CTS-V

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Suncheets@reddit

Don't those come stock with 565hp supercharger? Heard they respond to bolt ons extremely well

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SIKhDaddy91@reddit

It’s the LT4 with 650 flywheel hp or around 535 whp.

It is the engine from the pre C8 Z06 and ZL1 Camaro. And yes, it responds very well to bolt ons!

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Darkhuman015@reddit

Damn, that’s one hell of a sedan huh

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Drunken_Hamster@reddit

Charger. He said sedan. Though it could also be the latest BMW with the fugly grill. Or a Mercedes.

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istealgrapes@reddit

Just gotta heat up the tires properly. With AWD any half-way decent driver can handle 1000+ hp

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trbofly@reddit

meh. Honestly I dont like to speed. Maybe 10 over on the freeway max. But honestly the horsepower is super fun and useful from stoplights to the speed limit. And it is easy, now days, for a car to hook up and get traction well over 600hp.

So needed? not really. Fun as hell and not horribly dangerous? Yes.

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joker_1173@reddit

On the street or a road course, suspension and brakes are bigger factor in the ability to control the car than power. You can have 200 hp, but with crap brakes and suspension you won't feel comfortable and will not be able to control it. That usually differentiates super cars. In terms of power, a Porsche 911 isn't a super powerful car, but it's steering, brakes, and suspension setup makes it able to keep up and thrash cars with much more power.

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jeremiahishere@reddit

How fast do you want to go on public roads? Where I live, the speed limit is 70. On roads with curves, the speed limit is 55 at most. If I stay within the letter of the law, the maximum usable horsepower is the amount used in 2nd gear on a 40-70mph pull.

In my experience, a car with 200 wheel horsepower per ton will need to modulate the throttle or use traction control at street legal speeds. On a modern 4000lb battleship, that would be 500 brake horsepower. By comparison, a Miata with an engine swap making 300ish brake horsepower could have a similar power to weight ratio.

There is a reason that you see Mustangs crashing into crowds so often. The Mustang GT hit 400hp about 12 years ago. Higher trim levels hit 400hp 20 years ago. They are at a power level where you can spin the tires at street legal speeds almost at will. It is controllable but you can't mash the throttle and expect everything to work. Combine that with a taste for human flesh and you get a dangerous time to be alive.

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randomFrenchDeadbeat@reddit

Having lots of power is a thing, putting it down through the transmission and to the ground is another.

I have different boost settings per gear on mine. 1st gear is just wastegate pressure because no matter what, power does not pass on street legal tyres. 2nd and 3rd are limited to 15 psi because the gearbox can hardly pass that without grenading itself with sticky tyres. 4th and 5th have the whole 30 psi.

It has no traction control nor stability control, so at times it gets funky when shifting from 3rd to 4th.

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Account14159@reddit

What is it?

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gldnhaze@reddit (OP)

this is very insightful, thanks

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Frothey@reddit

If you wanted to get a number to represent this idea, it would be power to weight ratio.

I think what you're probably really trying to get at is driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow.

A stock Miata, you could push it to its limit easily on regular roads at regular speeds and have a blast. A GTR for example, you have to be at a track to be able to get it anywhere near its limit and reach that same feeling of fun you'd get from a stock Miata on regular roads.

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I-hate-sunfish@reddit

You can keep going with this type of something is useless? argument until you have a box on wheels to go from point A to B.

Useless exercise. We get things we want, not what we need. Especially for cars.

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bossoline@reddit

Not only is HP a bad absolute measure, it's also a personal thing. Some people like it, some people don't. People have different levels of driving skill. But I do agree that a lot of people use the HP number as just a dick-measuring contest.

My personal inclination is to agree with you. Not supercar territory, but I traded my CTS-V (556 HP) for a Boss 302 Mustang (444 HP) kind of for that reason. I'm not a track guy, so all of that performance capability was useless on a public road. I'll probably never have a 500 or 600 HP car again because it's just not worth it.

But that's just my personal preference.

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Tballz9@reddit

I prefer a lot more power than that. I never had an issue controlling relatively high horsepower cars.

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gldnhaze@reddit (OP)

impressive collection in the flair! would you say you can use all the power effectively when you arent on a highway or a drag strip though?

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Tballz9@reddit

Sure, driving up mountain roads with switchbacks and slow tight corners is a great time to use all that power to accelerate to the next corner.

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PiratenPower@reddit

It's not just the HP, but also how the power gets to the road.

In Europe at least, dunno about US, the Ford Mustang 5.0 is one of the deadliest car, given that it has about 480 HP, and all of it going to the rear with no differential.

Meaning if you give a little too much gas in a corner, your back just spins out and you loose control. Especially dangerous on the German Autobahn, given that it's not uncommon to drive long corners at 180kmh+

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ragingduck@reddit

It depends. My M4 is 510hp, but it’s AWD and weighs 3900lbs so it can use it on the track and in the canyons. On the street, not so much. A RWD Miata probably doesn’t need 510hp anywhere.

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zeromutt@reddit

I never track my car and i feel like 425hp isn’t enough lol

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Drunken_Hamster@reddit

I'd say power-to-weight ratio and how much traction you can get are more important. 400hp in a sub 2500 pound car (like a Miata or an F40) is VERY different to even your average 3300-3700 pound car, let alone a portly 4000+ pound car or 5000+ pound SUV.

Also AWD vs RWD vs FWD, again combined/compared with total grip, especially at speed, also plays a role.

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zmannz1984@reddit

I have had several powerful cars, and i went from wanting as much power as possible to enjoying the “drive a slow car fast” life. The biggest factor is whether you have the rubber, brakes, and drivetrain to control it. My first supra (jza80 with 1jz) had about 350 to the wheels and relatively easy to control going straight, but had terrible understeer. I upgraded wheels and tires a couple inches wider and it helped, but the added expense became an issue because that car just ate tires. I think most people would love the way it drove if they just wanted to drag race, but it could get scary around turns with how little lag it had.

My next few cars i kept closer to stock, then i got an rb25 for my 240. It started out stock and was really fun, but had the same issue with pushing through turns that the supra had. Fortunately, it didn’t take as much premium wide rubber to get it under control. However, a large upgrade and tune later, it was right at 350 to the wheels on pump gas and the lag was a safety risk in wet weather. I kept breaking parts, too, driveshaft and/or axles would warp or break on hard launches with it set up on premium plus toluene for octane boost. I finally broke the trans and called it quits. I traded the swap for an entire car with an rb20 and was much happier. I could drive the piss out of it a lot easier around town and it checked all my boxes for fun/unique/good sounds. I think it made around 225 to the wheels and i had fairly normal size tires on it. So much cheaper in the long run and so much fun day-to-day.

I have two friends with nicer, newer sports cars now and they were surprised how much more it costs to have a car with everything designed for its power level. One of them had an old cobra svt with a monster engine, but shitty everything else. It could only go fast in a straight line from a roll start and the brakes would cook if you slowed too fast. I am surprised he survived that thing so long. Now he has a challenger something or other and babies it around to keep his tires on longer lol.😝

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Slappy_Happy_Doo@reddit

My truck now has 420 hp and it’s nowhere near uncontrollable.

Slap that same power into a lightweight car made for performance and yea things would change dramatically.

I think you have a strong point though with more power you wind up spinning tires and losing grip. I wonder what the Goldilocks horsepower is for a given car to be at peak performance. also as weight reduction and tech improve we are able to do a lot more with less power.

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Trollygag@reddit

Your question is backwards and nonsensical.

Power is a capacity, not a limit. You can pootle around a track in neutral rev bombing and "make use" of all the power, you just generate it as heat, kinetic energy, and noise and not acceleration.

The question is whether you can use all of the GRIP at all of the time. That means no power at all in a hairpin and under braking, and potentially well over a thousand HP coming out of a corner onto a straight. That is dependent on tires' grip capacity, and the forces on it, some of which are generated by power.

You shouldn't be trying to use all the power available on public roads... at ALL. Public roads are for transportation. We have laws so they stay safe for transportation. So the points about public roads are totally irrelevant. Obviously you can stoplight launch a thousand hp car on public roads and use all of that power for acceleration. You can use all of that car's grip too. You just can't get on all of the power as often as you can on a lower powered car.

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ilovechoralmusic@reddit

I have a M550i with 530 HP and I’m still looking at M5s daily (when my wife is not at home …) . So yeah…

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theendoftheinternet@reddit

M440 here and I’m always checking out M4s. Already did the same thing with the 2 series as I had a m235 when they first came out and got a M2 as soon as they were released.

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420aarong@reddit

Disagree. My cousin has a 1000hp gt500. He took me for a spin one day. We’re having a nice conversation and out of the blue he says “there’s 155mph”.

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scryptbreaker@reddit

This is the truth. I had a Shelby a while ago, a 2007. Obviously power was only half that, but back in ~2015 when I drove it it was still a lot compared to other things on the road.

It absolutely didn’t feel fast.

You were going fast, no doubt, but the car handles it so casually you don’t even realize it and before you know it yeah higher 100s on the dash.

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Simoxs7@reddit

At least with ICE cars you’re usually using way less hp than whats on the data sheet. HP is a function of RPM and Torque so most of the time you only get those 400 hp at the redline / high RPM.

In normal driving you’re probably not even using 100hp most of the time…

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grandvache@reddit

it depends where you get your jollies. If squirting up to silly speeds asap and then breaking is your thing then 400bhp isn't going to cut it.

If you want to max your "pedal to the floor balls out ragging the shit out of the car at ALL TIMES" time, then you probably want much less than 400bhp although maybe not quite as little as you'll find in say a caterham seven 170 (a whole 84bhp).

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EVERYTHINGGOESINCAPS@reddit

I had an F Type R with 550 bhp through the rear wheels - An absolute hoot, but I would easily hit 120+ squirting it off a roundabout, and it would do 0-60 in about 3.5s.

Because of the power, you couldn't often hold full throttle for long, which was where it was at its noisiest.

I used to tell people that I would quite happily have a switch that would detune the engine for windy roads, so that I could go open throttle a little longer between corners etc.

When I switched to a lotus exige with 380 bhp the power to weight was a bit down, but going through the gears was a fair bit more fun as you were open throttle for a lot longer (If you ignore all the other bits that made it a load more fun than the F)

I did always think that the exige would be happy with a lot more power (like the 430 variant) if I was taking it out on track, and I can see that even up to 500+ would be a hoot on track (you'd have to find an equivalent power to weight for a supercar equivalent)

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6inarowmakesitgo@reddit

Power is nothing without control.

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Speeedrooo@reddit

As other people have said, there's a lot of factors and the all knowing answer of "it depends" applies here.

I've driven cars north of 600wheel HP no problem, but even they are much more controllable at low speeds than even the 380whp I have in a fwd car (which is also on an open diff, which is another factor).

It takes a second of skill to keep it together on launches and after that it's just like any other car, but that shouldn't stop you from going for more power if you want it. However there probably are HP limits depending on configuration, but they're much higher than the 400 you mentioned. FWD, for example with an LSD, is probably around the 600-700 mark (looking at you modded cobalt SSs), but rwd/awd is without a doubt in the 1000s as long as it's built and configured correctly.

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Secret_Squire1@reddit

It depends on the person. I have a 800 2020 GT500. It’s absolutely manageable due to 315 Cup2s in the dry. I have the autobahn in my backyard so I can actually use it all the way to 190 mph legally. Most people don’t.

It’s also way too fast of a car to learn how to run the Nurburgring. I’m downgrading to a stripped and caged C5 corvette for that. Even when I know the track, I still won’t ever be able to fully take advantage of 800 hp.

So yes in a sense you’re right it is useless. But most people don’t care and our content with either breaking the law or stabbing the gas in the way to Applebees.

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TheDutchTexan@reddit

Even F1 cars don’t go WOT in a turn. If you got decent tires and the road surface isn’t crap it’ll hold far more than 400whp.

Shit tires and slippery surface? My Passat will spin at 60 before the traction control kicks in (it can’t be turned off, really dumb). My Mustang’s traction control is fun when it works. If the rear locks up both tires are spinning at the same rate so it thinks everything is fine.

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PorkfatWilly@reddit

I worked next door to a shop that did hot-rods and yeah, too much horsepower, or useless horsepower was definitely a thing. I remember a mechanic almost crashed one of those ford supercars during a test drive because he gave it just a little too much throttle going into 2nd gear and the ass came around on him

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gldnhaze@reddit (OP)

ahhh not a ford gt

yeah apparently they are death machines like the carrera gt

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L003Tr@reddit

While handling and the type of roads make the biggest difference I don't agree with the wet roads power band.

My fiesta is sitting about 230/240 and you need to be really aggressive with ut before it'll even break traction in the wet. Ideally you could probably get away with 300-350 fine in the rain

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liftoff_oversteer@reddit

Not necessarily useless in general but in most situations you cannot get all of it on the road and have to be careful when stepping on the throttle.

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yourmomsjubblies@reddit

Dudes that rock 800hpwheel street cars prove that shit wrong real quick. Can they use all that up a mountain road? Depends on whether or not they can wheel. Will they take just about anything to gapplebees on the highway or at a no-prep? Fuck yeah they will.

If it's your first fast car then yeah 3-4 hundred horses are plenty to fool around and wind up with extra speeding tickets.