In a 50 mile radius around San Diego, there is one Supra for sale and it's not even on the lot. In 100 miles there are four, also not on the lot. Dealers mark up the manual version and some even mark up automatics. Not sure if it's a chicken-or-egg situation and production is down because they are not selling, but if I were a buyer, it seems it would be difficult to get one.
In the 500 mile radius from the Dallas area, there are 11 supras available. Only 3 are “msrp”, the rest are contact dealers or has some markup.
Maybe it’s Toyota not build enough or keep supply limited on purpose.
I don't think it's Toyota not building enough, I think dealers just don't want it. They like to do volume, they like bringing in 50 white Highlanders and 100 White Rav 4s and just selling those rather than keeping a few performance cars around with a lot of tire kickers. I can already see it: "Man I love that car, exept: "
\- I wanted the L6
\- I wanted manual
\- I wanted Red/Black/Blue/whatever other color isn't in stock
\- I prefer the Tan interior over black (or black over tan)
\- I loved that test drive but can you knock $10k off? Oh well guess you won't get my money
Honestly the whole thing is probably more of a PITA than just walking someone between 10 slightly different variations of the same volume car.
You said it, dealers kill any desirable car with markups to the point its actually hurting brand image. No matter the cost point they are parasite middlemen, even up exotics. Vote with your wallet to make this go away, and more importantly, tell your politicians here in the USA, as they are the reason they continue to rip us off.
The bigger problem with dealers is the regulatory capture, not the dealership model itself. Existing dealers have raised the barriers to entry for upstart competitors so high in most states that they can be shitty to their customers and face no competition, with the only check being a tepid threat to lose their franchise from the manufacturer if they are egregious. The worst practices of dealers around markups on exclusive models and high pressure sales tactics would be blunted if manufacturers were allowed to sell direct. It would also give manufacturers more latitude to experiment with novel designs/tech that risk averse dealers don't want on their lots. That said, it would not be the death of dealers by any stretch of the imagination.
If all manufacturers were allowed to do direct to consumer sales/leasing tomorrow, it would certainly be a short term shock to dealers, but the well run dealers will adapt. Like with Apple stores, manufacturers would more than likely only have corporate stores and service centers in major metropolitan areas with the most customers. Sure Denver might get a corporate Ford store, but Colorado Springs is gonna still have its dealers. Some consumers are gonna order the car they want from the website, but the majority are still going to take what they can find on a lot. Most people can't wait 6 months for a car, can't afford a new car, or, most importantly, would rather find a deal than a specific configuration. Hell, I had neither need nor financial constraint when I got my Alfa, so I had planned on ordering a specific configuration. They told me it would take 12-18 months. So, instead I worked with my local dealer to find a suitable model on a lot elsewhere in the country.
If your implying the Tesla method of buying is all gucci it's not. Having only one person in the picture who doesn't go to bat for you at all is worse then a potentially bad dealer.
I am not, that has problems of its own. There needs to be a healthy medium so dealers have limitations on what they can do, competition is good, but the system right now is especially awful especially with large chain dealers and lobbying within the industry. Something I imagine you are quite familiar with considering you have a Macan.
They can actually flag you for going around and comparing prices on desirable 911 models, making it so pretty much anywhere you go, they will just look at where you live and quote you the price relevant to there. My friend experienced this firsthand and it took a trip across the coast so he would not get ripped off and his local dealer was PISSED he somehow obtained one and almost refused him service for his 10 maintence.
Sounds like all the high end dealers though and tbh it happens on lower end dealers too. Any time I bought FCA product from Koons Dodge who would discount cars far below even invoice my local dealers hated servicing them and basically black flagged me and always gave me shit far out dates to service my cars even though I never haggled or disputed service bills.
For Porsche a client / sales person relationship is even more pure like Mclaren, Ferrari, etc. Although in my case we are fully transparent about expectations for cars, pricing, demand. I have no problem telling my sales guy "I can't do that, these guys are doing this, get as close as you can and I'll seriously consider it" and in the Macan's case the deal was a killer but he knew where-else I was already looking to buy.
We're currently talking GT3 and GT4RS's and in both cases there's expectations that we both have when we really sit down to consider ordering one and they accept the fact I'm an actual driver, not looking to flip. I'm not looking for the best deal in the world, I'm looking for a fair one.
tl;dr - I'd feel betrayed too as a dealer if my customer was going around shopping and not telling me. In my case my dealer had no problem getting to where I needed to be and but I also didn't expect them to meet dealers that don't care about pushing a car they otherwise may not have been able to sell locally.
> I'd feel betrayed too as a dealer if my customer was going around shopping and not telling me
Nothing personal, its a business transaction and they are not your friends, no matter what they tell you. I have dealt with Porsche dealers myself and every person they gave me didnt listen to me and just expected I would buy one because of the badge. Great example was when I wanted a comfortable non-sporty SUV and threw me into a Macan GTS (which rode like ass on our bumpy roads) and when I didnt like it, they tried a Cayenne GTS and said "prepare to pay 25k over" while I was in the middle of a test drive. I would equate them to a Land Rover dealer in so many aspects, didnt listent to me, resting on their name, and very pushy.
BMW and Mercedes are no saints either, I am cold and calculating with them and just use them for test drives, then come back with a lease broker later no matter what they do, and my burner phone I never answer. GMC I went a step further, I test drove, did the math on a quote, and had someone call around until I got a bite, then I just flew down and picked it up off their delviery truck while the finance manager was whining the whole time I somehow got one before they got in their lot, he tried everything to make me stay.
My friend with his 911 Carrera 4S was almost flagged purely because he went of range, it was the pettitest thing ever because he didnt want to pay the local markup.
I dont name and shame dealers, but it was in Socal area. I really dont want to do anything with Porsche to be honest, my experience made me feel like they were like Land Rover too much and I have some issues with the "prestige" brands after that. Super cold brands almost like going into a Gucci store at a mall.
> I dont name and shame dealers
Why not? They deserve whatever backlash and shame they get for their actions.
I see no problem in saying Fremont Toyota charges 10k markup on the GR Corolla and Envision Toyota Milpitas tried to charge 5k over for a BASE corolla LE hybrid.
You are 100% right, but its not just one dealer, the entire industry needs to go away. Its also not wise to say on Reddit where you live (or lived before). To this day I want nothing to do witb Toyota, Porsche, Land Rover, Ferrari because of how nasty their tactics as dealers are.
I know of one crappy dealer in socal. I don’t disagree with the fact that you should be able to shop wherever, just when you show up with a new car to your regular dealer they won’t be happy. It happens to all brands
It may happen to all brands, but people remember (especially younger ones like me) when we go through an experience like that. We remember and dont come back and tell our friends what happened so they dont experience it too with a certain brand. Dealers are bad business because they create customers that wont come back when they exhaust all the older buyers they have now.
NADA has friends in both parties too, so people need to complain equally from both sides or this wont change. Its a universally rigged system that has bypassed many checks and balances in consumer protection. You are very accurate in calling it bribery, because it is.
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This is correct. This is why I ordered a brz. I wanted my first new car experience to include sitting down and ticking my own options list. So my cars coming with a short shifter and V-bar installed already which is exciting.
Toyota is helping carsandbids 10 years down the line ahaha. Like when they released gr86 in neptune blue, then discontinued it. But you could never custom order one, so all NB gr86's in US were luck of the draw. And now they're rare muahahahaha
It's probably a stupid mindset thing for them. If BMW can custom order a Z4 and Subaru can custom order a BRZ, then the factories can absolutely do it. This is Toyota being Toyota.
Toyota has been making some weird decisions.
They had the first hybrid car... And decided to never go into full electric until now, when they had the advantage in the game with their tech and mature batteries.
They have the Helix, one of most reliable trucks... And decided to not import them to the US, where truck culture is more dominant than any other country.
And in the age of rising fuel price, they decided to introduce more GR ver and performance cars...
Like, wtf?
Toyota knew that pure EVs don't make sense, the Hilux is a smaller truck that wouldn't be as competitive in the American matket as the Tundra, which they do sell, and the GR models have been a huge marketing decision to bring back the enthusiasts crowd and show that Toyotas can be more than boring ecoboxes which is mostly a move coming straight down from Mr. Toyoda himself, as he's a huge enthusiast.
>They have the Helix, one of most reliable trucks... And decided to not import them to the US, where truck culture is more dominant than any other country.
I believe you've meant Hilux. And explanations I've read sometimes ago, which seems quite logical for me, is that because USA is so truck focused they're getting Tacoma which is more plush and luxurious than Hilux. Basically most people in USA want cool trucks, not some basic shit with 4 wheels and 150HP engine.
The problem with that argument is f-150, the best selling truck year-on-year.
It's relatively cheap, got tons of parts available, and can be easily modified. But a base level f-150 is just that - basic.
But I understand your point, it's just that it seems silly to not even try.
> They had the first hybrid car... And decided to never go into full electric until now, when they had the advantage in the game with their tech and mature batteries.
Toyota has been very open about their EV skepticism. They can put more people in more efficient vehicles to reduce more carbon output by building hybrids. The resource intensiveness of battery production means that full EVs limit their production. Even the Prime version PHEVs take up significantly greater production capacity than standard hybrids. They want to continue developing battery tech for tomorrow while building practical hybrids that match the landscape of today.
Go read up on the compliance RAV4 they built with Tesla around 2014, usu by Tesla motors and batteries.
Yet Toyota continues to actively lobby against EVs while spewing their “Beyond Zero” campaign which is all lies.
It means Toyota's US dealers or Toyota USA don't want to, not necessarily Toyota HQ. Which to me is even more aggravating. They're an unnecessary middleman and filter getting in the way of me as a customer communicating my preferences to Toyota HQ directly. Toyota's US customers aren't the eventual owners of the cars but the dealers.
I think everyone suddenly forgot it's Magna Steyr building these cars specifically. They're designed for custom production. Which makes it even more frustrating that Toyota just doesn't allow this option.
Kind of makes you wonder why they do it then. Granted, Americans love buying off the lot so maybe it was an obvious choice for them being a volume manufacturer.
Yes, this is Toyota being stubborn and I don’t get it. I just don’t see the harm in letting a customer spec out a vehicle and order it from the factory.
It's just to make the manufacturing process easier. They'll know exactly how many of what they'll need and lead times on everything since they control orders and builds. Same sentiment as the thread chain that got us here, Toyota moves enough vehicles they don't have to take special orders if they don't want to and as someone working in vehicle manufacturing it massively streamlines their parts supply. We used to do custom orders as well but since the pandemic and parts issues we've been on dealer allotment for the last few years and I'm not sure when or if they'll revert back
Same issue with Lexus. Want a specific color combo IS500 with a specific set of packages? Drop a deposit at a dealer and wait for Toyota to grace your region with an IS500 built to that spec.
Up until very recently, they didn't even let you do so on the LC and LS, and those are six-figure flagship luxury models. They finally gave into pressure and allow bespoke ordering... for an extra fee. The whole thing is idiotic.
That's mind-boggling. I never knew this. I don't see myself ever buying a brand-new vehicle but if I did I would 100% spec it myself, I can't imagine taking the second-biggest ticket you're ever gonna buy and just going to the lot and saying "welp that one is close enough". Like, close enough isn't close enough, it's MY new car for ME!
One of the very many reasons I don't currently drive an LC500. Considering the cars it competes against, not having the ability to perfectly spec one was a deal-breaker.
I’ve been looking at is350s and the online two around me are poorly specd and overpriced, and the third one is a CPO launch edition IS500 with boring incognito grey at $62k before other fees.
Colors are a rough deal on the IS. I wanted to like the IS 500's Molten Pearl, but it looks really ugly and washed out in brighter lighting. This year I wanted o like the Vector Blue, but it's a disappointing offering as a whole. The Satin Blue interior accents are so subtle they barely exist. The paint itself photographs really poorly, coming out like a generic, flat smear. It's a similar look to the ugly gray filling the market, such as with Hyundai.
I have primarily been looking at an IS 500 or Cadillac sedan as my next car. They're making such undesirable colors this year though, so I'm hoping they make better ones next year. Cadillac's metallic orange was decent, but I don't like the Cyber Yellow. Next year is probably when I'm making my next purchase, but I fear their current trends won't improve.
VW doesn't either, rather annoyingly. When I got my R it was an 8 month wait, because I wanted specifically a Blue manual car. Actually ended up working out, as it got in about one week before the buyback date on my TDI. Better that way than having my new R sit on the dealer backlot (2 blocks from my house, no less) for 6 months as it collects dirt and probably paint scratches.
I wanted a green stick TRD Offroad Tacoma.
Took Toyota over a year to get around to me and I had to drive to a dealer 4 hours from me because they wouldn't give the allocation to the dealer half a mile away that would've given me 2K off of it in April 2023.
They do but the last ETA sheet that I saw listed a Sienna as a 6 year wait period. Other models were not as bad but they are all a seriously long wait.
They don't, but if the problem is that dealers dont want it because it might sit, they might be more likely to grab one if they already have someone interested
Yeah this is likely happening and also why dealers don’t look like they have much on hand. Of course if you don’t have a demo a lot of people aren’t willing to order and if you’re a dealer you may not want to keep bringing in cars that will essentially be demos sold at a discount for some love volume seller.
Your friend did not order in the same sense that someone would order from Chevrolet or Ford. Some Toyota dealers will call it an order, but it's not really an order. Toyota dealers get allocated cars, and "ordering" just means they're waiting for an allocation in that particular configuration, or that they have one and are waiting for it to come in. They can also trade allocations and cars with other dealers to get a particular configuration that a customer wants. With something high volume, like a Tacoma or Highlander, this means most customers get what they want, or at least damn close. But God forbid if you want some option that most other people in your area don't want. Or if you live in an area serviced by a distributor (e.g. GST or SET) instead of Toyota directly, and don't want the bullshit port add-ons that they put on. Chances are, you'll never see that "order" come to fruition.
Huh, so TIL that Hawaii's distributor is Servco and they interface with Toyota Japan instead of Toyota USA. While I can't find any sources corroborating the ability to do a real custom order (any dealer can make up an order sheet, and there are plenty in the continental US that do), Toyota does do custom orders in Japan as far as I'm aware so it's a possibility that Servco has the ability to do this.
Yes and no. While you can’t place an order from the factory, you are allocated inventory based on your sales and location. So if you went into a Toyota dealer looking for a Supra, you could buy one as you wanted. The dealer would have to trade with another dealer for that vehicle. If the dealer down the road is getting a Red, M/T Supra that you want, they might call that dealer and trade a Tacoma TRD Off-Road for it, as both dealers will make money on that Tacoma.
Just be prepared to pay MSRP or more
Toyota is all based on volume. They move a ton of Corolla’s, RAV4’s, and Trucks that are roughly all the same color with the same features. It’s all data they get from sales and dealerships. They make more per car based on churning out the same car down the line than making one to a specific order sheet.
Some say it’s dumb, but Toyota has done it this way for years and it seems to have worked so far.
They’ve done a lot of things for years, but the world changes.
If the factory *could* build the car, why not just allow customers to place and order and throw it into the factory queue. It doesn’t add much complexity. Just another backwards way of doing things where an old company doesn’t want to change. Tesla also churns out incredible volume from only a handful of Gigafactories, but they’ll happily accept an order from you. The old dealer model of just picking something off the lot is awful, but Toyota doesn’t seem to understand that.
One area where it matters a LOT is paint. To change colors you have to totally purge all the lines and guns out, clean off the drying racks, and probably purge all the air in the booth just to be safe. That's on top of all the logistics of actually stocking or custom mixing however many colors, and getting the right colors to the right booth at the right time. Much much easier to just paint white or metallic silver all day long.
Nope. They don’t need to build cars in the order they were received, they can take orders and for a given build week/month build all the red cars together etc
Yeah. But if you also need to build, say, I4 and V6 cars in seperate batches? Automatics and manuals in sperate batches? The combinations explode very very very quickly.
I’m no expert but the fact that literally every other manufacturer does it (including those that share assembly lines with Toyota i.e. Subaru and BMW) suggests that this is a solved problem some way or another.
None of them make money consistently year end year out like Toyota. It wasn’t that long ago that Porsche was on the verge of failing. They were only saved by introducing the Cayenne right as the luxury SUV market was taking off.
One of the ways they maintain margin is absolutely ruthless efficiency.
They just group similar orders together within a given week or month. It’s not like BMW stop the line and builds the cars in the exact order they were received
Toyota Quality > Tesla Quality
Toyota manufacturing is based on the “Just in Time” model of inventory and production. It ensures no parts sit on the line and that the production is done to meet demand of the consumer based on their appropriate data. It worked for the GT86, why can’t it work here?
Is it because it’s a Z4 with a hardtop you can’t see out of and the ergonomics of a NA Miata for way too much money? No. Couldn’t be.
Let’s be real. Toyota can’t even build the Supra bro. They had to beg BMW to do it.
The Supra is a phenomenal car, the problem is Toyota is their backwards dealer network. The first comments in this thread were literally how no dealers have them in stock.
Correct, Toyota has some amazing chassis but all under the Lexus brand. Their lazy asses sold out to BMW and now they are stuck with a half baked, tiny, sports car that’s nothing like an old Supra.
It drives great, sure. But it’s basically the Z coupe and it’s OK at that. I’d expect more from BMW, especially when it comes to fitting in the damn thing.
That's a garbage excuse.
If I can Order a KIA Sportage in exactly the trim level I want and the color no reason why Toyota can't do the same shit.
Especially since Toyota Japan does orders too.
Dude, what options are on a Supra? Engine, 4 colors, and transmission. You’re not exactly fighting for an extra package or something special here. If you want one, go to a dealer, put your money down, and tell them what you want. They’ll get it for you.
Why should I have to wait for an allocation when I can order the exact same car from Subaru or BMW exactly the way I want without dealing with dealer bullshit?
Because you’re going to deal with dealer bullshit either way, lol. It’s just up to you if you want to wait for a car to be built or get one in a week from a Toyota dealer 🤷♂️
Whatever you say. I invite you to go and attempt to a buy a Supra, in the color, with the transmission you want. You might leave the lot that night with the car you want. Can’t get easier than that
> They move a ton of Corolla’s, RAV4’s, and Trucks that are roughly all the same color with the same features.
What works for high volume vehicles doesn't necessarily work for low volume.
Until someone walks in the dealership and says "hey I'll pay $20k over sticker for the next Supra you get" and the dealer says "we don't have any, but we ordered one and it's coming in next month"
Maybe the I need a vehicle people are willing to pay the mark-up even to have a more reliable car. Whereas the performance car people already have a daily driver and are willing to wait. I'm sure volume and stagnant inventory play a huge role as well. The performance car people can be much more picky when they have another reliable car.
I have to assume dealers can accept or reject allocations though no? If you don’t think a small allocation of something is worth the effort/hassle you might be inclined to pass on it.
Nope. They can horse trade tags between dealers (e.g. if Tacomas aren't selling in a place but Camrys are they can swap a Taco for a Camry from a dealer where Camrys aren't selling, or even swap two Tacos for a single Camry) but they can't reject it. The zone sales managers have a lot of say in which dealers get which cars, which leads to all kind of influence and payback games.
I honestly don't know. I've never heard about a dealer rejecting a car from the manufacture.
That said, I've never heard of any new Supras just sitting on a lot anywhere. This is the kind of car that people go out of state to buy if they have to.
>Man, I would love this care if you could give me the options I want
Fixed that for you. Fuck what the customer wants tho right? Which dealer do you work for?
That’s Toyotas fault for not allowing custom orders. All those except excuses go out the window when you allow people to just order exactly what they want. Even if you force them to go through a dealer to do it.
In the grand scheme of things, they might get an additional $10k on that Supra, meanwhile they're selling RAV4s and Highlanders like hotcakes.
They also deal with idiots who happily pay fat markups for the lackluster RAV4 Prime, so why bother with the Supra when we're going to be picky and REQUIRE the 3.0L w/Manual in specific colors
...They can sell just as many Supras as RAV4's in Southern California if they would have them on the lot... But they don't. People want Supras, but they don't want to wait 6-12 mo. I know my son is one of those people. He wants a Supra, but isn't willing to let Toyota hold his money and *maybe* get him a car next year. I say *maybe* because it's 100% true that they are taking orders from people and not delivering. It's not the dealer's fault. It's Toyota's requirements for what they are allowed to order.
I guess this begs the question of how/why Toyota sales are declining. It can’t be true that customers pay a premium and dealers want the car but sales are down unless there’s a physically issue with production.
But given the Z4 doesn’t seem to have issues that wouldn’t make sense. Unless it’s really right production and it’s all going to Z4 instead of Supras because they’re rapidly growing in sales at the same time.
>I guess this begs the question of how/why Supra sales are declining?
I have the reason, markups, dealers kill any "affordable sporty car" and even up the food chain to the unobtainable stuff for most people, they are still reviled. Before I had the cars I had now, I had one of the first mk5 Supras and a 2021 Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro and getting both of these cars was a *painful* experience that took alot of travelling, dealing with lying dears, and some genuine dirty tricks to make sure I didnt pay over MSRP. People on forums even asked me how I did it and when I told them, it was awful and a youtuber even wanted me to document how I pulled it off.
It was so bad I will never ever support Toyota as a brand again and have even got to tell a brand rep it to his face at an auto show when they showed off the LX600 and the new Land Cruiser.
There might be some behind the scenes agreement we don't know about. BMW/Toyota must have agrees to purchase X amount of cars from Magna. BMW might be using more of the production capacity, or Toyota might just not want to order more from Magna if the markup/profit isn't there vs. making another Highlander or something.
Yeah, i'd have 100 percent bought one if Toyota wasn't screwing around so much. They missed my car buying window by not offering a manual back in 2020. Trading at this point sounds like a nightmare, plus i love my car.
They certainly don't care to service Supras. When I had my 2021 for about a year it needed an oil change and then a software update for a recall. Both service appointments ended up taking 3 visits to the dealer because they didn't have the right techs working, the right oil, their BMW computer working, etc.
Again, it's a Toyota problem. BMW takes care of that issue by mainly doing special orders for their M cars. You build the car to your exact spec, submit to the dealer and wait for an allocation slot. Toyota just doesn't do that. Then you probably have some idiot at the dealer ordering a bunch of automatic 2.0Ls because they're cheaper or whatever. Enthusiasts are less likely to settle.
Yea they are simply too expensive too. A manual is 60-70k. Your out of your mind at that price I could have a slightly used m5, a g80 m3 xdrive in a few years, a corvette c6 zr1, hell that’s almost gt4 territory. When I could get a b58 for 30k used from a 340i why tf would I ever get a Supra
I get the point of value and you can always get better value and sometimes even faster car after someone depreciates it for you. But some of us, we want a new ride, i dont what to know what the previous owner did. Also, you get a used car, you most likely have to put in a few more grand for basic maintenance (fluids, tires, possible brakes, etc). I don’t want to know the price of maintenance on a M5. Haha.
There is a peace of mind with buying new vs used.
Some of us just want a new Supra and nothing else. Problem with that. Without new car owners, used car owners won’t find a good deal. Supra will be a good deal in a few years.
Yea I think the other problem is they aren’t being driven much. Most have 20k miles or less. I actually see one for sale right now for 36k cuz it has 70k miles. And yea I guess it’s all reletive. I’m used to cars over 100k miles so something with 20k miles looks pretty much brand new with little to no risk to me.
Just curious how often you get new cars? I tend to keep mines for a while. My 86 is 10 years old. Previous was 7. It’s about that time for me to upgrade.
Toyota openly announced they were artificially limiting production numbers of the gr corollas to retain value - I wouldn’t be surprised if this was something similar.
The second one. All the manufacturers are playing the game of planned scarcity. Gonna be hard to keep those manufacturing facilities running full pace if revenue projections are expected.
In fairness, everyone wants an SUV or pickup. They are full tilt right now, lots loaded up, can’t sell enough of them. Consumer can’t get enough.
> Maybe it’s Toyota not build enough or keep supply limited on purpose.
I'm sure that's what it is. Same with the GR86.
Sales volume is low, but these cars aren't sitting on lots. Unless they have a stupid markup.
Haven't they intentionally tried to keep their supplies limited? I swear I saw a report were they said they didn't want to flood dealer floors like before. I know with thr GR corolla they're limiting production also.
I know the yearly special editions are limited like the 2024 45th anniversary with only 900 units. My local dealers are charging $80k for one. Toyota are still producing regular models without any limits. They are all made in the Austria factory so Toyota’s hands might be slightly tied.
I do think Toyota limits the numbers keeps them a bit more rare and exclusive. Supras sales does nothing to the Toyota’s bottom line. It’s a halo car. The ceo wants to shake off the boring “Corolla” image.
What's interesting is that I'm seeing a lot of used 3.0s sold in the mid 40K range with 20-40K miles.
Might be a viable option compared to paying MSRP + ADM on a new one.
Toyota is stuck in the 80s/90s with their outdated dealer model. Even during the heigh of the shortages, BMW would let you order a car and wait, while Toyota made you fight for whatever was in incoming inventory.
It IS a chicken/egg problem where dealers aren't moving them because they keep insisting on ridiculous ADMs, aftermarket garbage like marked up tint, paint protection etc. At $10k+ over MSRP you start having more options, such as the M2.
It’s a coupe, rather than a convertible. Not everyone wants a convertible. And some people would prefer the styling of the Supra. Other than that, I can’t think of any reason.
I'm convinced people that compare the C8 and the Supra because of a claim that their pricing is close don't actually drive cars and are just not discerning at all about fundamental principles that differ the cars and thus really shouldn't be making such claims to begin with.
A **fully loaded** Supra is 59k. A 2TL C8 is 77k, and that's not speaking of the fully loaded equivalent 3TL, nor any of the optional features you'd really want to spec out on the 2LT. This is more than a 30% increase in price - it's not a trivial difference. It's not like getting a C8 at MSRP is easy either - I've had way better luck finding a Supra at MSRP.
Even price aside, "better car in almost every way" is just so incorrect. Not only is it just false, even if it were true that statement is so antithetical to what being an enthusiast is about so using it just to make some weird personal point is disingenuous. It would be like if I said an Audi A3 is better than a GR86 in almost every way - it's true, but the A3 is worse in ways that should matter to enthusiasts.
The Supra is designed to be quintessential sports car sized, hence why its wheelbase is pretty much 1:1 with the Cayman.
The C8 has superior performance, but it's a much larger car.
Also, there are various things I could point out that are "better" which may or may not matter to you personally. Some of which are, but not limited to:
* Being more playful and dynamic
* Better build quality - BMW vs Chevy (historically - time will tell for this)
* Refinement of the powerband (pushrod V8s aren't for everyone)
* Tunability
* Styling
The cars have a lot of overlap that as an enthusiast you could easily cross shop them, but at the same time they aim for such different goals that it's pretty obvious to me why there also exists enthusiasts who would only consider one and not the other.
Spot on. Emotion inspired from the experience is stronger than any spec sheet.
When the MKV was introduced without a manual option I started leaning toward the C8. The Vette is incredibly capable but after driving a Z51 it ended up not hitting the mark me. Ended up with a Cayman.
Also, please get the Emira.
I also have a Cayman currently.
> Also, please get the Emira.
Lotus is making this difficult. There's a plethora of problems that have popped up with the cars stated by owners on the forums, alongside their non-existent research on the market of Canada, which I'm in. The car started at 105k, got raised to 110k, and then 120k, all of which I was more or less okay, but not happy, with. Then they stupidly raised the price to 130k, which puts it in an entire different luxury tax bracket, totalling it out to nearly 170k after taxes. It effectively raises the price of the car by a good 40% or so fr
Then the things start to compound at that price which really begin to sour my perception of the vehicle. Why is its tuning nerfed compared to the Evora GT? Why does the car not have rev matching and other basic features like adaptive dampers? The engine and build quality aren't as nice as the Cayman's. I'd have to get a second car since it's not usable for things like groceries like the Cayman. The interest rates are way higher now than when the car was announced too. The cars are sitting on lots in the UK at a discount. I can probably get one used because of all the above and people becoming fed up with theirs. I could go on a bit more but those are the thoughts in my head. Lotus have effectively made me fallen out of love with the car, which makes it really hard for me to want to own when it comes with so much compromise and sacrifice involved.
Also at that price I'm just thinking of getting a R8 to have experience owning a v10. Right now I still have my deposit in, but turned down an April allocation for a FE 2.0, just to see if they release the normal version with any improvements and under the luxury tax bracket.
I'm sorry there is no world where BMW builds better quality sporty cars than GM. The engine and transmission alone in the Corvette I could bet money would last much much longer than the Supra. The Corvette is pretty much known for being one of the only super cars to actually be realistically daily driven, a Supra is not a super car obviously but still their quality nowadays is generally great on the Camaro and Corvette. The rest are valid points (even if I personally disagree - imo the Supra is absolutely hideous looking and when I sat in one I hated the interior).
Sure, but I still would never in my life consider owning the normal C8 because it's just far too large a car for me to connect with. I also don't emotionally connect with most American performance cars because I find no *appreciation* for their engineering which is a huge factor of why I like cars, and for people into watches it's like the entire point of that hobby. Note that I'm not saying the cars aren't impressive from an engineering standpoint, but just their ethos and approach do nothing for me.
I also don't necessarily care if the Corvette lasts 20 years without major repairs and the Supra 15 years. People buying a car at this price, especially a performance one, don't have that as their main worry, and it should be easily solvable with money if you can afford one of these cars new to begin with.
It doesn't really matter if you disagree which is the beauty of people all being different. You don't have to like what I like, nor the other way around. The problem arises when people (not saying you), obtusely pretend a different option has no merits in a very disingenuous fashion because they prefer one over the other. You can't pay me to own a C8, but I'd happily spend my own money on a Supra. At the same time, I can tell you exactly in which ways the Corvette is better than a Supra, and if you should get one over a Supra. I don't say weird shit like the Supra is a better car than the Corvette just because it's my preference.
Just a guess as I haven't owned or driven either, but the supra likely has better fuel economy, better steering feedback, lower chance of rims cracking on imperfect roads (usability off-track), lower maintenance costs, lower insurance rates, easier to park in a city (much smaller).
I have a hard time believing that a bmw power train is easier DIY and maintain than a GM one. The one good thing about gm is that their parts are cheap.
insurance isn't stupid, they most definitely take age into account. i.e. don't go thinking because you're 30 you'll get cheap insurance because the ave age is 60. You'll be compared to other 30 year olds who drive c8s in your area
I have a mid engine car, and people make them out to be impossible to work on. I do agree it's silly to crouch in a trunk to change an air filter, but it isn't harder.
The Chevy dealer near me announced $10k off MSRP for some of their C8 Corvettes.
https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2023/12/29/corvettes-for-sale-brand-new-2023-corvette-3lt-convertible-offered-for-10k-off-msrp/
I wanted to look at a Supra when it came out. I had just been to a BMW dealership where I drove the M2 Comp, a 240i, a M4, a 440i, and a Z4 in about 2 hours with a dedicated salesperson.
At the Toyota dealership, they wanted $20k over list price and I would have to put a deposit down and sign purchase papers just to get a test drive. They had the Supra cordoned off with a rope six feet away from the car, it was locked, and there was a mall cop standing there to keep you on the plebe side of the rope.
I went back to the BMW dealership and ended up with a 240i.
Are C8s marked up still? Or did that come down? It’s all a game of markups! Well if you’re going to pay markup for civic type R, might as well get the Supra. But the Supra is marked up…well if you’re gonna pay the Supra markup then you might as well get a C8. But the C8 is marked up….well you might as well get a Porsche!
I can order a C8 at MSRP right now. Trying to get a Z06 is another story at MSRP. But pretty much any Chevy dealership will let you order one. It's probably going to be a 6 month wait but it's doable.
> Are C8s marked up still? Or did that come down?
Depends where you get it from. Local dealer in Southern California? Yeah, they are marked up. But anyone seriously considering buying a C8 should go to one of the high volume dealers, like MacMulkin or Ciocca. No markup, no games, just a deposit and wait in line. But the line for the Stingray is getting shorter and shorter. The Z06 is still very difficult for people to get if you haven't been on a list for years.
From my understanding it's not super difficult to order one at msrp but you will have to wait a bit.
Though if you play with the configurator it does kinda change the picture a bit. You can still get a bare bones 1lt in the 65k area, but most people want to at least get a 2lt and or the z51 package. Which does push things up into the 75-80k range depending on options.
About a year and a half ago I randomly stoped at a dealership. They had a silver one with manual that was a dealer car with 5k miles. Wanted $500 over MSRP. I wasn’t a serious buyer but man seems like I missed a good deal.
I have a friend that has been trying to buy one for over a year and a half. He has been "at the top of their list" at the dealer since "ordering" one, but that have gotten one delivered. He also "ordered" a yellow one, which has been discontinued, so even if he could get one at this point it wont be yellow now. He is so fed up with it that he is giving up and going to bite the bullet and buy a cayman has sworn off toyota ever again.
Dude this sounds bad exactly like me. I've had a deposit in for a year. And the dealer told me "I'm at the top of the list". My BS meter is full and if I were more desperate to part with $65k I would be trying to ship one.
But overall, I think supras are supply limited. There seems to be a lot of demand at least up here in the northeast.
> There are more Z4s available and I believe they're both made at the Magna Steyr plant.
Yes they are mechanically the same vehicle built on a BMW platfrom.
Sounds very similar to the Kia Stinger situation where Kia claimed lack of demand necessitated discontinuation when in reality they lowered production in order to show lower sales numbers so they could discontinue and push buyers to the higher priced EV6
I'm on the East Coast and it's the same story. Auto Supras can be had but manuals are sold as soon as they become available. Lack of supply is probably depressing the numbers more than lack of demand.
Yes I know the difference between discrete units and continuous amounts. But just because you've heard that *"Fewer denotes a discrete number. Less is nebulous"* a buncha times (as we all have), does not make it a grammatical rule and does not make counterexamples grammatically incorrect.
Plot twist, you're both right. You're just arguing different things. You're arguing in the context of the formal register of a prestige dialect. u/AverySmooth80 is arguing from the descriptivist view of language, which is effectively that a term widely used by the majority of native speakers of a language and which is clearly understood by all speakers is, by definition, acceptable and correct in that language. That tends to be a far more accurate picture of how people actually use language on a daily basis.
This is incorrect, and you are using specious linguistics jargon in order to substantiate your categorically incorrect assertion. Grammar compromises absolute, non-negotiable rules, otherwise there is no such thing as language.
> is arguing from the descriptivist view of language, which is effectively that a term widely used by the majority of native speakers of a language and which is clearly understood by all speakers is, by definition, acceptable and correct in that language.
No it's not just common and accepted usage. It's in the actual definition of the word.
Common and accepted usage is how "the actual definition of the word" is determined in real life. Prescriptivists and prestige dialect speakers have stricter and more limited uses of most words, but that generally has little bearing on how most speakers of a language behave. "The actual definition of a word" only occurs years after people have been using it regularly, yet language manages to change and find new accepted words and phrases at a much faster rate.
You're arguing just to argue. I actually agreed with you that "less than [discrete number]" is correct and explained the theoretical linguistics reason for why that's the case. I don't even know what point you're trying to make anymore.
Who's arguing? I'm clarifying that your point that the usage of word begetting it's du jure meaning has already happened for the case we're discussing here.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/fewer-vs-less
> However, this is not a strict rule and there are accepted instances of less being used with countable amounts such as "250 words or less,
Exactly, currently on a waitlist in my area. I wish it was as easy as everyone is making to be like you could walk in and buy it MSRP without issue. Most likely a production decision rather than waning demand.
I feel your pain. I had refundable deposits down at three dealerships and it still took 12 months to get one. This was after calling 20-30 dealerships to find the one that would do refundable deposits. It’s a mess trying to find a Supra.
I apologize if that sounded like a brag, was just trying to explain the process I went through to have the opportunity to buy a new Supra. It wasn’t easy, like the article leads you to believe.
To think they were practically giving these cars away just 3 years ago. I walked into a dealership, picked one of four sitting on the lot, and they gave me $4k off sticker without me asking.
Toyota was also financing them for 1.9%.
^^God ^^dammit, ^^why ^^did ^^I ^^sell ^^my ^^Supra?
These types of articles are pretty dumb. They sell every one they make. They made less of them. It’s not like Toyota lots are just lined with rows of unsellable supras.
It’s just a lot profit car. Most vehicles have the profit going to the company that designed, manufactured and sold the car. In this case, you have that split between Magna, BMW, and Toyota. So whatever the limiting factor is, will likely get distributed in a way that not a lot goes to the Supra. Limiting factors could be individual parts or raw materials. It all depends on what issues they are having.
I have had a deposit down for one with my local dealer since last April.
The problem is that Toyota's allocation system is dumb as shit. The dealers just put in a request, not an actual order, and it's up to Toyota if the car ever gets manufactured or shipped.
Meanwhile I custom ordered a Kia Telluride a few years ago and sure I had to wait 5 months but I got exactly what I wanted for MSRP.
Be better, Toyota.
They probably regretted that a few months later. I regret not getting a Stinger GTS for like $5k under sticker spring 2002. It was bright orange but marked down to like $37-38k of I remember correctly. Should have done it and just wrapped it.
>and it's up to Toyota if the car ever gets manufactured or shipped.
Toyota doesn't even manufacture the Supra. It's the vehicle they have the least control over production in their entire lineup. If you wanted to be more specific with the build, you should have gotten a Z4. BMW has more control over that production like than Toyota does.
>I wanted a manual. No manual Z4.
You were misinformed. [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a46065165/2024-bmw-z4-manual-drive/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a46065165/2024-bmw-z4-manual-drive/)
And the size+weight increase over the Supra, if that bothers you. But, it does come with better visibility as another advantage.
I wanted a manual supra, but when I was going through the buying process I just couldn't find one within reason. I'd probably have ordered one if I could have. I re-evaluated what I wanted and needed as as result and I'm incredibly thankful it didn't work out with the Supra- I absolutely would have sold it within a year, effectively setting my money on fire.
It’s probably just parts availability. BMW doesn’t make anywhere close to the amount of vehicles as Toyota does. And Toyota doesn’t really have the significant supply chains set up for production in Europe. So they are dependent on what BMW can make extra.
Yep, for sure. It's made by Magna Steyr, imported as a BMW, then sold as a Toyota. It's pretty much the lowest priority of any vehicle because there are so many slices of the profit going so many directions.
> imported as a BMW
Eh? No, that's not how importing works. Why would it be imported as a BMW when it's manufactured as a Toyota, has a Toyota VIN, etc.?
No idea. I just know that BMW has issued recalls for the vehicle. That is a legal process that points to BMW as being legally responsible for the vehicle, not Toyota.
That’s separate from importing FWIW and not uncommon. Toyota issues recalls for the Subaru Solterra, for example. Probably who is equipped to deal with them and a contractual arrangement for who will bear the cost.
Recalls are a legal responsibility for the vehicle in the country. Courts can force a company to issue a recall and who does have to follow specific guidelines. It's not about who is equipped to deal with the issue, it's about who is legally obligated to. In the case of imports, it is dependent on the paperwork when they enter the country.
[MK5 Supra VINs recognize BMW as the manufacturer, not Toyota.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_identification_number#World_manufacturer_identifier:~:text=Vehicles%5B17%5D-,WZ1,-Toyota%20Supra%20Fifth)
WZ1 is registered to Germany BMW / Magna Steyr, though as a unique case for the 5^th gen Supra.
The GR86 VIN begins in JF1, making it a Subaru-Fuji Heavy Industries manufactured car, not Toyota.
Toyota manufactured VINs begin with JT(x)/4T(x) for the most part - the GR Corolla begins with JTN for example.
There are a bunch of non-J/4Tx regional Toyota mfgs but they *are* registered to Toyota^(Please ignore 4T4 specifically though)
Does the production line impact Toyota's sales process? As far as I understand it, in any other car they sell, Toyota is functionally dictating how much and what kind of each car every dealership gets. Even ordering from them amounts to "I'm sitting on an internal waitlist until they produce a car like the one I want."
Not to discount production issues either, it's a genuine guqestion. I'm sure Toyota would absolutely be building more if they could, unless they wanted to articially control the supply like the GR Corolla.
Toyota tells dealers what they are getting. The production would only intentionally decrease if there was a problem and inability to sell the car. The Supra sales are down because production is unintentionally down, not because of lack of sales.
Toyota is to blame for this. No cars on the SoCal area. I tried and was ready to pay 2.5K markup. The dealers are greedy for 10 K markup. At that rate the M2 is a better buy.
Ended up getting the Miata for fraction of the cost.
Mean while Nissan GTR had 500% sale increase lol.. the best part of the article was " light weight supecar ". Hear me out and I have made this argument over and over, at 3800lbs , it weighs less than a bmw m2, yet GTR was always shited on for being heavy. Go figure.
What’s disappointing is that this will be used as a (decently valid) reason to say that there’s no market for the car and to stop production. And as much as I want one, I can’t justify it, yet. But in 5-6 years, when I will be able to, it won’t be around, at least not NEW, which means I won’t be able to vote for it with my wallet.
>so we can get one for cheap later on down the line.
If you do, avoid the 2020 and 2021 models. The 2020 is for obvious reasons, but the 2021 models are known to consume oil (Although I've heard that the later 2021 production supra should be fine).
LOL my comment was tongue in cheek. But for real though, I need yall to buy the LC500 so I can get a cheap used one down the line. Preferably one of you retired ones that just drive it to the country club and shit. Well it's an expensive Lexus so I'm assuming like 90% of them are like this.
Isn't the older B58 the tunable one though? Looks like BMW made it a nightmare to get any work done on 2020+ B58 engines from my limited research into the area.
If you have a 2021 and the ECU date is pre June 2020, then you can get it bench unlocked remotely and then tune to your hearts content.
If not, then you have to send the ECU to Russia (FEMTO) to get cloned and then they send it back to you able to be tuned. Something like that.
The 2020 Supra B58 uses different internals along with having an integrated exhaust manifold (IEM). That means the 6 cylinder engine only has two exhaust outlets, one for cylinders 1, 2, and 3, and the other one for 4, 5, and 6. It can cause a bottleneck issue and Toyota got rid of the IEM in the 2021+ models and replaced it with a traditional external exhaust manifold which means you can upgrade it.
To see what it looks like, check out the photo in the link below (It's the top photo, the bottom photo shows the intake side): https://blogs.solidworks.com/tech/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/image2011-13.png
From what I've heard, it's generally not a good idea to buy the first year model of a new car.
A lot of things can go wrong. The next year usually fixes a lot of things that were discovered form the prior year.
Yeah, my parents were divorced growing up, but one owned a 1992 Camry (1st model year) and the other a 1993 Camry, both with the same engine.
Both of them owned their cars for almost 20 years, and it was really interesting seeing stuff break on my dad's car that was slightly different from the more durable version in my mom's car. The climate control knobs for instance, all fell off on my dad's 1992 Camry but were fine on my moms.
Haha! If you loved dad more you could have stolen the knobs from mom's car.
Yup so it's a lot of goofy things like that. Nice that both cars lasted 20 years.
That’s surprising to hear, the B58 engine has been pretty bullet proof so far for BMW and I haven’t really heard of any oil consumption issues for them
When the 2021 was the latest model, it wasn't uncommon to see people posting in the Facebook group about excessive oil consumption. I knew 2 A91 Edition owners who were inconvenienced by it. One of them got their Supra lemon-lawed and the other got a new motor.
I’m aware they tolerate oil consumption but as someone who’s working on BMWs all day everyday I haven’t come across a single B series engine consuming excessive oil yet, and that’s even with people following the long warranty oil change intervals.
If tuning, 2020 is the easiest to do it on. Doesn't require the expensive and time consuming ECU/DME unlock that the new ones need. (Unless thats changed recently, i haven't kept up with it)
I don't know. Between shipping your ECU to Finland and having the arguably worst version of B58 with the internal manifold I think the latter one is worse. Ye Papa got 1k HP out of it, with a turbo the size of SUV Tyre and a custom 3D printed Inconel intake manifold that prob costs as much as the car.
It would help if the dealers didn't treat it like a Bugatti Chiron. I went to go see one at a local dealership. It was parked out front and it was unlocked. As soon as I sat down some salesmen came out looking like he downed a bag of airheads telling me to get out.
Id like a Supra but I like big luxury cars so I'll take it's older uncle the 540i.
It's a dealership issue at the lower end. Try and go drive a Supra or Civic Type R, and they'll treat you like it's unobtanium and you can NEVER test drive it. Walk into Porsche, Audi, or BMW and happily test drive pretty much whatever you want.
My local porsche dealer handed me the keys to a 718 and told me to be back in an hour and not get arrested when I was 21. Subaru would barely let me sit in an STI.
Yeah the dealership experience trying to buy one was fucking awful. The first dealership wouldn't let me test drive (despite having 3 on the lot), second dealer would only let me drive it around the parking lot.
I ended up using TrueCar to start a deal with an out of town dealership, but even then I had to rehaggle the deal down when I got there to what they showed in the Truecar offer.
> Walk into Porsche, Audi, or BMW and happily test drive pretty much whatever you want.
I've told a salesmen at Porsche I had no intentions of buying a Macan in the next few years but eventually I wanted. He tossed me the keys and hopped in. During the test drive he scoffed and me and told me "You could have gone faster in that curve." Well, If you insist my good sir.
I remember once I went to go look at the Kia Stinger. They acted like I just walked out of jail trying to steal their precious.
You can't buy them! The GR86 had been tough to buy up until very recently (I got mine quickly and at MSRP, which wasn't true even a few months prior), but the Supra made it look like a cake walk. Dealers that had policies of no markups were marking them up, no one was getting allocations (you can't order toyotas).
I've never met someone who's driven one who complains about it being a BMW. The B58 is a beast.
They are expensive to begin with, even back in 1996 they were what like between 39k and 53k? Now they want markups, yeah of course sales are down. Once the hype is over and markups get removed they'll sell more than they order.
They very well may, that could be one of the reasons why Toyota and BMW teamed up. Why dumb that kind of capital for something that isn't meant for volume????
A good - yet (IMO) unexciting sports car - I think everyone who was ravenous at the concept of the Supra on release got one.
Solid package - but every single person I know whos into cars and could afford it bought something since its release instead of a new Supra (including me), that tally includes used Caymans of multiple vintages, GT350s, Evoras, a 2009 Dodge Viper (lol) and a few newer BMW Ms.
I've personally considered buying a brand-new 718 just because I could spec the car exactly how id like it - but Toyota does not allow you to spec cars its an option/package lottery just like with used cars, so there too goes another motivating factor to buy a new supra over a used (something else a bit cooler for the same money).
Very true. Its mostly me being annoyed with how far up market the 718 has gone. The small Porsches used to be close enough in price to the Z4 that they could be reasonably cross-shopped.
It's absolutely insane, especially given how cheap a base 718 feels inside.
And before anyone freaks out at that statement, if you can find a dealer with a 718 that doesn't have $20K in options, go sit in it. See for yourself. Feels like the MK8 GTI I sat in that same day.
So after spending $2K on proper trim, $1K on LED headlights for your $80K car, $1K-2K for power seat (again; $80K car), non-white paint, a radio, and perhaps seatbelts or maybe a steering wheel as a treat; you now have yeeted $100K on a 4-cyl sports car that sounds like a subaru, doesn't handle as well as reviewers would have you think, and feels only "fine" in terms of acceleration. (Source: have driven 718's)
I will say that the manual 4.0 is a ball of fun, but in no way is that car worth $120K+ assuming you can get a dealer to let you buy one.
I'd honestly rather gamble $30K on a used V8 F-Type R or buy an Emira.
Not a limitation. The margins are thin and Toyota doesn't allow customers to order vehicles.
This means dealers don't want Supras, because they have no clue if it'll be the 4-cyl that no one wants, or the 6-sp that everyone's clamoring for.
Rather than take that gamble, they'd prefer any number of Rav4 Hybrids that fly off the lot as soon as they arrive.
BMW doesn't prioritize the Z4 for the same reason, but at least you can order a 6-sp if you want to.
isn't this built in a bmw factory? if this car was sold in bmw dealerships they would've sold a lot more. the dealership experience is horrible for toyota. i know someone with an 800+ credit score so was treated like crap when they went there to get a car, so they just turned around and left.
Seems a little ridiculous, why would you buy a Mercedes with a McLaren badge on it either.
Why buy a ford that’s been rebadged as a Shelby?
A Mercedes rebadged as a Pagani?
A ford rebadged as a koenigsegg?
An Audi rebadged as a Lamborghini?
A Toyota rebadged as a Lotus?
All of the cars you mentioned were built from the ground up and use another manufacturer's engine. The Supra and Z4 are the same car aside from the body panels. I'm not sure if you can tell, but those are kind of different situations.
Are they now? We all know the engine is the same and the transmissions can be but let’s look beyond that.
Chassis are developed by their respective companies J29 vs G29.
Suspension components? Different parts different companies.
Interior? Yeahh you can figure that one out.
So what do you have beyond and engine and transmission? Which is less than the Lambo R8 comparison and the Shelby Ford Comparison and basically the same as most others listed.
>Chassis are developed by their respective companies J29 vs G29.
Besides the provisions that make one a convertible and one a hard top, they are exactly the same chassis.
>Suspension components? Different parts different companies.
Lol, no. They are exactly the same components. You can get under a Supra and find a sticker that says 31106878588 on the right tension arm. Exact same part number as on the Z4. Even the Toyota badge on the Supra has a BMW part number.
Really? Care to share where you found that information? Any of it? Because your badge claim is laughable. The rest don’t check out with the two owner’s manuals I could find online
> Care to share where you found that information?
I co-manage a performance shop and I've had to order a new badge for a Supra. The BMW part number for the Toyota badge is 51148811655 for the front BMW 51148811656 for the rear.
> Because your badge claim is laughable.
I can see how it would be to the uninformed.
Wow, if I forgot I asked about what you do for a living. But if that’s the case pull the receipts.
And bud, all cars have numbers. Any nobody is dumb enough to believe that Toyota’s badges are made by bmw
> Besides the provisions that make one a convertible and one a hard top, they are exactly the same chassis.
IDK shit about cars but this feels like "they're the same if you disregard everything that's different about them."
I don't agree with the person you're replying to, but:
>why would you buy a Mercedes with a McLaren badge on it
Is there a single McLaren badge on the SLR? I'm truly not sure that there is. Besides, this was a car developed from a partnership of equals. The resulting product is agreed upon by journalists to drive like a halfway point between both companies, and Gordon Murray will be the first to admit that because he hates all the Mercedes aspects of the car.
>Why buy a ford that’s been rebadged as a Shelby?
This one is really silly. Shelby is essentially synonymous with high performance Fords in 2024, and the GT350/500s are developed entirely by Ford Performance with little to no input from Shelby American. There's absolutely no contradiction between the nameplate appearing on the outside of the car vs. the characteristics of the car itself.
>A ford rebadged as a koenigsegg?
Never has a Ford motor car been rebadged as a Koenigsegg, and the amount of development they did, even on those first CC8 engines, means the only thing Ford left is probably the block.
>An Audi rebadged as a Lamborghini?
This is the closest you get, however, both generations of R8 are based on the respective Lamborghinis of the time, not the other way around. Even still, the name "R8" meant absolutely nothing in 2003 when the concept launched, whereas the Supra name has history and meaning.
>A Toyota rebadged as a Lotus?
An engine does not make a car.
I mistakenly put Mercedes as a Mclaren, I meant BMW as a Mclaren as the SLR would be a mclaren with a Mercedes badge.
Perhaps I think it’s silly you spend an extra 40k on a ford product because someone threw a supercharger on it?
Block is still a part of the car, and it’s pretty silly to spend hundreds of thousands on a car that shares parts with a crown vic.
The Supra has a history to 13 year olds who loved F&F, anyone who’s driven one knows it’s far from being special.
So an engine doesn’t make a car but the supra and z4 are the same because they share an engine and at times a transmission?
> So an engine doesn’t make a car but the supra and z4 are the same because they share an engine and at times a transmission?
They share a transmission every time now. And a chassis. And subframes. and every control arm. and a diff. and a driveshaft. and axles. and all brake components. and a steering rack. and the entire fuel system.
I think so, it’s not a massive market but it’s definitely there. Judged on its own merits the supras actually a damn good car, a good chunk of the guys in my local supra group have been tracking cars for a while and they all tend to agree that at its price the supra is a superb car on a track.
I managed to get mine for MSRP at a great rate, which imo it’s definitely worth. Can’t say I would have got the car at a marked up price with todays rates though, probably would have just gone c6 vette at that point.
Toyota did not scale down Supra production for (mysterious reason) - they did it because dealers were ordering fewer cars because fewer people were buying them. ADMs on supras dropped like a rock over the last year.
It has to do with production issues in Austria & more cars not getting allocated to the USA. I know Japan and EU got more supras than in the past. 2023 USA supra imports was 2652. The first year of production 2019 was 2884 and wasn't event a full year of production. Peak production was in 2021 6,830.
Toyota: Finally makes a manual transmission available in their highly desirable sports car
Consumers: Hell yeah let me buy one!
Toyota: Lowers production. Does not take customer orders.
Customers: Why won't you let me buy one??
Toyota: See? Nobody wants manual transmissions.
The people that wanted the Supra already got one. And in my area, these are selling below MSRP now with good lease deals too.
It’s a good car and the engine is great. But whether people like to admit it or not, it’s a BMW. And a lot of people don’t want a BMW.
Toyota could have made it look more like the concept and only kept the engine as BMW instead of making the car 99% BMW.
I have seen Toyota fail more of these during QA at the port than I have show up within 150 miles of me over the last year. No wonder no one is buying them new. Always for stupid things like missing the carbon fiber inserts on the side mirrors.
The Supra is OK. Definitely not the best value for money at its price range.
Not to mention, the car is made for small people. At 6’3” this car feels like a coffin.
It's honestly amazing they've sold a single one considering how much they cost, how mediocre a driving experience they are, and how they are styled. You have to be a hardcore, HARDCORE Toyota fan to buy one of these.
Judging from the horror stories I keep reading in here about dealer bullshit, I got off easy buying a used '21 a couple years ago from carvana, of all places.
It’s not too expensive because it’s a Toyota. I know it’s completely personal taste, but as someone who thinks the original Supra was one of the best looking cars of its era, I find the new one absolutely hideous for some reason. And the original had much better performance compared to the other cars of its era when it came out, while the new one is pretty boring performance wise.
It has nothing to do with sales… they literally aren’t making them and it’s frustrating. It’s a production issue. My region is getting 3 supras allocations in the next batch for 72 dealers… there is 40 people In Line at just one of the dealerships near me… people fucking want them.
Ive tried on several occasions to find and test drive a new Supra. Each time I checked locally at either of the Toyota dealerships in town, nothing.
Also tried expanding my search a bit out to Denver. Same results.
I finally found one in Houston, but it was in the showroom and they wouldnt allow test drives. Sorry I do like to verify I like something before I buy it.
I feel like I tried, but after a while Im just in the mood of "Cool so these either dont exist or Toyota/Dealerships doesnt want to sell me one." I cant even imagine wanting specific colors or options. Impossible.
Meanwhile no issues finding Z4s here and there.
BMW also has never turned me down on test drives either, on anything.
They would’ve been better off basically re-releasing the old school Supra with the 2JZ in it. I don’t care for the new one at all and it’s marked up way too much.
I actually just got one a few days ago, an automatic 3.0 in red that was sitting at a lot. It was a 2022 with 3k miles on it. I love it and how it drives
I inquired about a manual Supra earlier this year while I waited for insurance to decide whether they were totaling my car or not. I just got a call yesterday from the Toyota dealership asking if I still wanted one because they had a manual on the lot. I think we'll see more of this since the Supra is no longer the hype vehicle
I inquired about a manual Supra earlier this year while I waited for insurance to decide whether they were totaling my car or not. I just got a call yesterday from the Toyota dealership asking if I still wanted one because they had a manual on the lot. I think we'll see more of this since the Supra is no longer the hype vehicle
Anyone considering the Supra, aught to test the M240i Xdrive in my opinion…..
3 reasons
1. Xdrive, so it’s very capable in different weather conditions. Also launches harder from a dig
2. Way more space…good size truck and back seats that can accommodate a 5’7 person or shorter.
3. Wayyyyyy easier to get in and out of.
Much easier to buy in my experience too if your willing to call around
Is there actual inventory? Were the dealers selling the cars at MSRP or marking them up by $10k+?
Sounds like a dealer problem vs a Supra problem. Also, BMW will let you order a car exactly how you want it. Interior, exterior, every single option. Toyota lives in the dark ages, you walk in trying to buy a Manual Supra in Red and they try to sell you a gray 2.0L automatic.
Either or really. Lot of friends enjoy sedans for space while not being to overly huge. Plenty opted for the M340i. They call it an XL Supra. Which is actually one of my friends custom tag lol
Exactly, the Supra is an enthusiast car. The problem is, until recently, Toyota didn't sell any of those. The sales staff is trained to sell RAV4s and Highlanders to happy families all day long. Those customers probably aren't as picky.
Choosing every option on the car, and then waiting patiently for it to get built, delivered, etc. is an experience. Toyota is stuck in the dark ages where they can't even accept orders. They aren't equipped to cater to the enthusiast market.
The weirdest part ... even when the factory/production line DOES allow orders like BMW/Magna or Subaru, Toyota just can't do it from the dealer end. BMW will happily let me order a Z4, Subaru will let me spec out a BRZ, but you can't do the same for the Supra or 86.
Yup. I’d also like to add the Supra relating to your staff comment is the Supra is different for them or rather difficult. I have a lot of friends who work as toyota mechanics and technicians at low to high levels. The process of onboarding to service Supras is a reason why most Toyota dealers opt to not sell or service them. Two of my friends work and dealers who did not want to go through the staff training process or procure the equipment from BMW for a few allocation sales.
I feel this is a Toyota problem. They took a shortcut by outsourcing the car to BMW, but also perhaps not considering the time/research/effort it takes to sell/service what's effectively another manufacturer's car.
When I was about to order my Z4, I inquired about a manual Supra as part of my homework and was told it'd be approximately a two year wait.
I'd still likely have gone the Z4 route even if it were immediately available, but just mentioning it here as a data point.
Every one of these are selling before they hit lots. Take this article with a grain of salt, this doesn't necessarily mean no one is buying Supras but knowing this sub I wouldn't be surprised if people run with this idea...
Clicked link
Read "Supra sales tanked"
Instantly have moment of excitement that I might be able to buy one
...at a reasonable price (eg MSRP w/o ~~market~~ Fuck-You adjustment)
Go to comments
Instantly think "I fuckin knew it. Article is BS, demand ain't changed a lick. Production has tanked."
Can I get one time machine back to 2020 where toyota couldn’t get rid of them (my dealer had 6 on the lot) and had crazy lease offers like $5xx a month with 3-5k down?
I agree the article is not taking important info into account but if we trash nissan for not being able to get the Z to dealers we should do the same for Toyota. But I realize asking this sub to hold Toyota accountable is unlikely
I would be a perfect candidate for this car. In fact if I could actually get a manual I might have bought one already. The dealers playing games just turn me off completely so I don’t care anymore…..
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Toyota isn’t making a lot of cars because demand is low, demand is low because dealers are still adding 15-20% markups on Supras. It is absolutely moronic.
I was told there’s a two year wait list for manual 3.0s at Toyota SF and there would be a markup... so yeah, that was the end of considering a Supra for me.
these are incredible difficult to get. if the supra wasn’t the only one of it’s kind in the segment i and many others would’ve stopped playing toyotas games.
I like reading the article comments. They keep saying you have to “special order” them, when in reality you can’t special order Toyotas like that, they’re allocation only.
Being an allocation system makes it even more difficult to get a desired spec.
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