There are thousands of Thai and African and Arab soldiers in the IDF. Israel has hundreds of thousands of migrants from around the world who are patriotic and enlist
No, anyone can try to immigrate and get citizenship, regardless of religion. They’re are many Muslims from Africa who legally immigrate to Israel. The immigration process has nothing to do with military service.
Then, once they are citizens, some of them are patriotic and join the idf. That’s all, it’s not complex. It’s just like the USA. Immigrants come here for a better life, they get citizenship, and some join the military
It’s more coming from Russia, Iran and, to a lesser extent, china. They’re utilizing the largest digital propaganda apparatus the world has ever seen to push pro Palestine, anti west agendas.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html
Belatedly holding them to account considering the previous relationship between the apartheid regime in South Africa and Israeli military and security services. A lot of the techniques the Israelis now teach other governments including those in the west on population suppression and paramilitary strategy against civilians were transferred to Israel from South Africa. Also, potentially, a primary development channel for Israel’s nuclear weapons programme too.
I guess I have to make the logical connection for you. Israel has forced conscription. Every Israeli Jew fights in the military.
So just 99% of Israel’s Jewish population are war criminals that should be banned from SA? Definitely not antisemitic
Saying that every Jew commits war crimes is not a good look for you buddy. Second, the article is about South Africa, like others said there are already laws against fighting for another country's military.
Then why does the state have to be specifically Jewish? Nothing about a Palestinian state means that Jews wouldn’t be welcome to live there. Like they did before Israel was established?
Are you seriously that dense? I'm not taking any sort of side now, but MANY Palestinians would refuse to live with Jews, and would gladly kill them without remorse. More than you would think, too. I mean they/their families get paid pensions (for life?) for killing Jews for crying out loud. A majority Palestinian state with a Jewish minority would only trade places of who the oppressor is.
Everything that you said also happens vice versa. Many Jews would refuse to live with Palestinians, and would gladly kill them without remorse. More than you would think, too. I mean they/their families get paid pensions (for life?) for killing Arabs for crying out loud.
> A majority Palestinian state with a Jewish minority would only trade places of who the oppressor is.
Who's calling for that? Western people are either calling for two states, or one balanced state.
But what you're saying makes no sense. There are MILLIONS of Palestinians living in Israel. They might be mistreated, but they generally don't get killed.
Do they really get pensions for that? Never heard of it.
It sounded like you were arguing for a majority Palestinian state with a Jewish minority, but I probably just misunderstood you, sorry about that.
Palestinians in Palestine generally don't get killed. Jews in Palestine generally don't get killed (but why would they want to live there?) Jews in Nazi Germany generally didn't get killed. Even in the extreme cases killing is still less likely than staying alive.
Isn't it ironic that Israel is one of the few functioning democratic countries in the middle east? You're saying most of the Middle Eastern countries shouldn't exist because they are arab-islamic countries
Lol, 'foreigner'... You are hilarious. But Americans and Europeans get to vote. That's the apartheid. People who live there cannot vote because of their ethnicity and religion. Americans and Europeans can.
Not all palestinians. Which state represents them? Which state controls the minutia of their daily lives? Israel either needs to let them vote or give them statehood along UN boundaries.
The point is that many of the Israelis are not from Israel but have migrated there from the US and Europe, yet have more rights than the native palestinians.
The majority of Israel's population is of Middle Eastern origin. Even if we exclude the Israeli Arab population.
And all of them can vote.
Those who can't vote are the Palestinians, who live in the West Bank and Gaza. Because they are not Israeli citizens, nor do they want to be.
That would make sense if Israel hadn't denied Palestinians statehood. As the have denied Palestinians statehood and as they continue to exert a system of apartheid on Palestinians, it's just ridiculous nonsense. All palestinians should get to vote or Israel returns to the UN mandated borders and recognises the Palestinian state.
>Why is an ethno religious state necessary
I don't know, why is Palestine necessary? Why should the Palestinian people be entitled to their own ethno-religious state?
So you admit Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to vote except for the few that somehow survived the nakba. You know some black people were free while slavery was legal in the US? Didn't stop slavery existing. You know some races got better treatment in south Africa during apartheid? Didn't stop it being a system of apartheid.
Until all Palestinians get voting rights Israel is operating a system of apartheid.
Right of self determination of people on the land they inhabit. As opposed to a collection of settlers from all around the world who claim a land their ancestors have never lived on.
More than 70 percent of Israeli Jews were born in Israel, but don't let that fact get in the way of you calling them "a collection of settlers from all around the world".
When? Today? After decades of settler colonialism?
Do you even know the religious proportions prior to the mass Zionist migrations? [Take a look for yourself](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))
> The Arabs got there after centuries of settler colonialism
That's not true. If you look at figure 1 and compare it with Extended data figure 1 in the full version of this paper:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature19310;
you will see that the modern Palestinians DNA overlap the DNA of bronze age Levant sources.
By that "logic" there should be similar amounts of overlap in other places the Arab expansion reached, and there should be more overlap between Saudi (since the Arab expansion started there) and Palestinians than between Palestinians and the bronze age Levant samples. There isn't. The Spanish are near the other side of the chart, the Italians are a little closer, the Iranians are a little to the left near the top, and the Saudis are mostly below and to the right, while the Palestinians and the bronze age Levant samples are literally on top of each other. Of all the groups mapped the Palestinians have the most overlap with the bronze age Levant samples
Arab presence in the region is much older than Islam if that’s what you are referring to. Furthermore, the rise of Islam was not particularly marked by a complete demographic replacement based on ethnicity, there weren’t that much Arabs in Arabia in the first place how could they completely replace the populous Levant. On the contrary the early caliphates supported themselves financially by levying the jizyia on the non Muslims and the ummayad had great amount of unrest due to their Arab centric approach to ruling while their realms were very non-arab.
But try again
Where their heritage lies. They have connections to other nations that are still alive, as opposed to Palestinians who can only trace their lineage back to Palestine. Israelis have somewhere to go back to, Palestinians do not.
> Lebensraum is tolerable so long we stick around long enough
Jewish heritage does have ties to the land, but it never gave anybody the right to do their very own manifest destiny
Why did the Soviets have the right to demand Lebensraum and expel all the German settlers that came following Barbarossa? Because righting a wrong is not Lebensraum.
Oh I see. So when Israel is allowed to exist, it's Nazi lebensraum. But when Palestine is allowed to expel Jews who were born in Israel from their native land, it's "righting a wrong".
"Nazi is when Israeli Jews are allowed to exist."
It’s hard to make peace with the fact that what some call home is entirely created at the expense of others on brittle motivations and even less justifications so I understand you wish to read in what I say something that was not said so all this could be easier on the mind. Cognitive dissonance and all.
But since you have started arguing in bad faith by making up strawman arguments, I will not further engage.
Yeah I agree, it's hard to make peace with the fact that Palestinians have no right to expel native born Israeli Jews from their homeland for purpose of acquiring lebensraum. Sometimes you just have to accept that people who you hate have a right to exist.
As long as Palestinians agree that the state should be a liberal democracy where women, LGBT people, atheists, and other marginalized groups have the right to live as free and equal citizens, sure, I'd agree to that.
Israeli arabs are not treated like equal citizens.
Israeli jews regularly spit on Christian worshipers and worshiping places.
Israel ranks worse than Turkey in gender equality.
Gay people can't legally marry in israel.
>-The treatment of minorities: Israeli arabs are not treated like equal citizens.
They are equal under the law. There are racists assholes in Israel, but there are racist assholes everywhere and that doesn't make discriminated people not treated as equal citizens.
> Israel ranks worse than Turkey in gender equality
No. [Source](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gender-equality-by-country)
All your examples are excusively in rabbinic courts, which apply only to religious affairs. Which leads me to my next point.
> Gay people can't legally marry in israel.
Straight people can't legally marry non-religiously either. It's not a homophobia thing it's because marriage was ceded to the religious courts (which is stupid, I agree with that), and no religions in Israel accept to officiate homosexual weddings... which is on them. And just to be clear, that means Islamic courts officiate Muslim weddings, Christian churches officiate Christian weddings, etc etc.
Marriages (gay or not) done in other countries are recognized, so many Israelis just go to Cyprus or wherever to have their weddings. And by any other metric you can measure gay equality, Israel is at the same level as the most progressive countries, and decades ahead of any neighbours.
Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging. The discrimination in these laws is either explicit – “discrimination on its face” – or, more often, the laws are worded in a seemingly neutral manner, but have or will likely have a disparate impact on Palestinians in their implementation.
These laws limit the rights of Palestinians in all areas of life, from citizenship rights to the right to political participation, land and housing rights, education rights, cultural and language rights, religious rights, and due process rights during detention. Some of the laws also discriminate against other
groups such as gays, non-religious Jews, and Palestinian refugees."
List of these laws
https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index
> "Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging.
You do realize that "Palestinian residents of the OPT" are expressedly *not* Israeli Arabs? This is the same thing as saying that the US discriminates against Canadian Americans because some laws don't apply equally to solely Canadian people. I won't go through 65 laws without knowing which ones are relevant. I also don't know how that source qualifies discrimination.
>https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-ranked-lowest-of-all-oecd-countries-in-gender-equality-index/
That is actually referencing a study which is relevant to the conversation. Which, fair enough, proves me wrong. That is very interesting actually and I hope I get time to read this. I wonder what is measured to makes the results that different though, I doubt it changed that much in the last years.
>You are just providing an excuse for discrimination. At the end of the day, gay couples can't legally marry in Israel.
Excuses my ass. I am explaining how the system works. A country not having civil marriage isn't LGBT discrimination. Not recognizing gay marriage from other countries would be, in this situation. And I repeat, it's still stupid.
>In 2022, Israel saw 3,309 instances [...]
While always too high, this is a useless number. Unless you find a source which compares similar definitions of "violence and hate speech" between countries (and per capita), you can just say this happened, not that Israel is good or bad. Maybe with the same criteria, Sweden (or any other example of most LGBT-friendly country) would have similar numbers per capita.
And I'll say it again, having individuals discriminate is not the same as having the state discriminate.
- Palestinian citizens of Israel, also known as 48-Palestinians (Arabic: فلسطينيو ٤٨, romanized: Filasṭīniyyū Thamāniya wa-ʾArbaʿīn; Hebrew: 48-פלסטינים) are Arab citizens of Israel that self-identify as Palestinian.
Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against *Palestinian citizens in Israel* and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging.
Again discriminatory laws against Palestinian citizens of Israel aka Israeli arab!!
- Excuses my ass. I find it very very problematic that a country claiming to be modern doesn't have a civil marriage!!
- i don't need to compare hate and violence against lgbtq members in Israel to other states to conclude that it is high and Israeli society is not exactly friendly toward queer people.
If they mix both together, it can mean there's 1 law which they consider discriminatory against Israeli Arabs, and 64 against non-citizens.
It's problematic but not LGBT-specific discrimination.
And no, you do need other numbers. Because if you don't have a number to set what is friendly towards queer people, you can't know if a country is friendly or not. If you don't need numbers then you don't know anything you just decide it to be true because you dislike the country to begin with.
Israel is an apartheid according to human rights watch, amnesty international, btselem and some Israeli officials.
Israeli arabs are treated like second class citizens.
"Palestinians who live on land defined in 1948 as Israeli sovereign territory (sometimes called Arab-Israelis) are Israeli citizens and make up 17% of the state’s citizenry. While this status affords them many rights, *they do not enjoy the same rights as Jewish citizens by either law or practice*"
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
Israeli same sex couples can't legally marry in Israel and queers are subjected to violence and hate.
Israel is an apartheid according to human rights watch, amnesty international, btselem and some Israeli officials.
Israeli arabs are treated like second class citizens.
"Palestinians who live on land defined in 1948 as Israeli sovereign territory (sometimes called Arab-Israelis) are Israeli citizens and make up 17% of the state’s citizenry. While this status affords them many rights, *they do not enjoy the same rights as Jewish citizens by either law or practice*"
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
Israeli same sex couples can't legally marry in Israel and queers are subjected to violence and hate.
- The treatment of Israeli arabs:
"Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging. The discrimination in these laws is either explicit – “discrimination on its face” – or, more often, the laws are worded in a seemingly neutral manner, but have or will likely have a disparate impact on Palestinians in their implementation.
These laws limit the rights of Palestinians in all areas of life, from citizenship rights to the right to political participation, land and housing rights, education rights, cultural and language rights, religious rights, and due process rights during detention. Some of the laws also discriminate against other
groups such as gays, non-religious Jews, and Palestinian refugees."
List of these laws
https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index
- Israel ranks worse than Turkey in gender equality
29 may 2023
Jewish state scores worse than Turkey
"Sixteen women have been murdered since the beginning of the year and there is no one who is taking this issue and dealing with it as required,”
“The government makes it difficult for women to live in equality when it subjects women to the policies that extremists in the government seek to impose on women, passes laws that give priority to the laws of the Torah over civil law, and ignores the exclusion of women in the public sphere,” said Yelin, CEO of the non-government Israel Women’s Network lobby group
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/israel-ranked-lowest-of-all-oecd-countries-in-gender-equality-index/amp/
- lgbt in Israel:
honey, all you did is provide a justification for discrimination. In the end of the end of the day, *gay people can't legally marry in Israel*.
Additionally, In 2022, Israel saw a record number of 3,309 instances of violence and hate speech directed at members of the LGBTQ+ community reported to The Aguda - The Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812
So if Palestinians democratically voted to destroy democracy and replace it with a Sharia law theocracy where women, LGBT people and atheists have no rights, that would be cool with you?
Seeing as how one sides state currently allows those things and the other actively punishes them, sometimes with death I'm going to have to hard disagree with you.
And the laws of Israel explicitly call for special additional rights for one of those sects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People
> 1.C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the **Jewish** people.
> 5. The state will be open for **Jewish** immigration and the ingathering of exiles.
> 6.B. The state shall act within the Diaspora to strengthen the affinity between the state and members of the **Jewish** people.
> 6.C. The state shall act to preserve the cultural, historical, and religious heritage of the **Jewish** people among Jews in the Diaspora.
> 7.A. The state views the development of **Jewish** settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.
The law explicitly grants additional recognition to Jewish people of Israel, not equal to the various other Israeli citizens. It is an apartheid state through their actions as well as their official laws.
Shariah law applies to everyone. It doesn’t differentiate between Christian and Muslim. You know, not the same thing as having a set of laws specifically for “Jewish” Israelis.
LOL no one is arguing the hypocrisy of Sharia, but apartheid based it’s discrimination on RACE. Sharia being sexist is not discrimination by race. And yes the difference matters.
You don’t get to just invent terms to suit your posts. Gender apartheid isn’t a thing because apartheid, BY DEFINITION, is discrimination based on race. Now go clown elsewhere.
I don't think you understand what an apartheid is!
Apartheid is a severe form of institutional discrimination and systematic oppression based on race or ethnicity, and is prohibited by international law and crime against humanity.
Apartheid consists of three primary elements:
An intent to maintain domination by one racial group over another;
A context of systematic oppression by the dominant group over the marginalized group;
Inhumane acts such as “forcible transfer” and “expropriation of landed property.”
Go educate yourself
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
Are you insane? Palestinians are arab muslims they have been ethnically cleansing all the Christians' for years and it is illegal for a jew to be a citizen of Palestine. where as Israel has Muslim Druze jewish and christian citzens.
there are less then 1000 christians left in gaza. becuase Hamas is a genocidal muslim extremist orginaization. this is what actual ethnic cleansing looks like. Israel is 22 per cent Arab including Christians', druze muslims bedoiuns. Israel is the only country in the middle that protects minority rights.
Yo where do you guys get this crap from? Where do you get that Jamas has been cleansing Christian Palestinians? Israel doesn’t give two shits about minority rights. Do you actually believe it does?
Because all the land of historic Palestine belonged to palestinians natives and Israel was carved out of this land without the consent of Palestinians.
Why should the Israelis people be entitled to their own ethno-religious state on stolen Palestinian land?
Nah, the Palestinians just have to accept a two state solution. Also, let's let Russia have Mariupol and Kyiv, China have Hong Kong and Taiwan, let us unify Korea under the Kim dynasty, and let Indonesia eliminate all West Papuans.
/s because this world is cold and damned.
Palestinians want the two states solution but israel doesn't.
When UN gave Israel 56% of Palestinian land, david Ben Gurion said that this was the first step in the "possession of the land as a whole".
Israel is necessary for the Jews who has gotten evicted from Arab states. They got thrown out when Israel was made, also those who didn't want Israel to be made, ironically. And they were thrown from what they had and told to go there. Then again, Arab states doesn't seem to scire so hih on democracy.
Israel is not necessary, those events occurred in response to Israeli brutality towards Palestinians during the nakba and afterwards.
Israel literally made Jews less safe.
Bullshit. You think Jews were safe in a country which expelled them because of actions they didn't take any part in?
If they were considered as humans this would never had happened.
In addition, their life standard increased massively since they moved for the majority of them.
You could argue Netanyahu and his ilk have made Jews less safe (and I would agree with you). But not the state of Israel nor it's existence.
Your initial argument can exactly be applied to the Israeli expelling of Palestinians, but aside from that, Palestine was only of the few countries that accepted Jews at a time when Europe and the US was antisemitic. Palestinians literally welcomed European Jews into the country and even their homes, only to have them turn on them and steal their homes and their country. The Hadid family in particular are witnesses to this occurring. https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/YBpU5EoMpu
If you want evidence of how unsafe Israel has made Jews it has made them in a state of perpetual war for the last 70 years. Israel has taken billions in military aid from the US, and funds US and European Jews moving to Israel. Meanwhile Jews from Africa with darker skins were secretly given birth control without their knowledge by the Israeli state. Meanwhile literal holocaust survivors, the very people who the state of Israel is supposed to be existing to protect have to scavenge from food banks and charities. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/one-third-of-israeli-holocaust-survivors-live-in-poverty-advocates-say
We don't actually know how many Israeli's were killed on the 7th by the IDF, but it is likely a substantial number. Cars with Israelis in were targeted by Apache helicopters both at the festival and where hamas was taking hostages back to Gaza. Tanks were used at be'eri kibbutz to destroy houses with Israelis inside. Hostages were killed by Israel's barbarous bombing campaign and by the IDF when hostages were released on Gaza's streets Israel hunted them down and murdered them.
It's not an argument, it's fact. I don't agree it was the right thing to do but it was definitely in response to Israeli brutality and in particular denying Palestinians the right to return to their homes.
It's baffling how resistant people are to the idea that maybe both governments are shitbags. Okay great don't cheer for Israel because they're committing horrific acts of war, but maybe accept that Hamas started off the shebang by targeting innocent civilians and then butchering and raping a bunch of concertgoers? And that Hamas, if given the opportunity, would be just as if not more genocidal?
>Okay great don't cheer for Israel because they're committing horrific acts of war, but maybe accept that Hamas started off the shebang by targeting innocent civilians and then butchering and raping a bunch of concertgoers
It's baffling to me how many people think history started October 7th or don't know that Israel has supported Hamas for over 30 years and have publically bragged about it.
Okay? And Hamas was doing unethical shit before October 7th as well. How does them being supported by Israel somehow excuse their actions? Is this a mistaken assumption that because I don't support Hamas, I support Israel? Because, like, that's the whole point of my comment. It shouldn't be controversial to say both groups suck.
And how many Palestinians should Israel get out kill to destroy the group they support?
Your logic is amazing.
So if I want to kill a group of people all I have to do is support a terrorist organization then I get to massacre both the terrorist organization and all of the people.
I'm perfectly comfortable with saying Israel is a horrible regime, is causing wanton destruction with the full knowledge of killing innocent civilians, and is committing genocide and should be stopped.
You, evidently, have a great deal of trouble saying that Hamas raping, butchering, and otherwise targeting innocent civilians is a bad thing to do. Shouldn't be this hard to denounce Hamas if you think killing people is bad.
The conflating of Hamas with the Palestinian people is an issue on your end, not mine. Never have I stated that the Palestinian people deserve this or should be condemned. If you want to support Hamas because they're fighting for the Palestinian people, go for it, just admit it clearly instead of dancing around it.
>I'm perfectly comfortable with saying Israel is a horrible regime, is causing wanton destruction with the full knowledge of killing innocent civilians, and is committing genocide and should be stopped.
"first of all" Israel isn't a regime, it's a state. Im not sure if you're a complete fucking moron or just an idiot who uses words they don't understand, but I'm inclined to believe both.
And I'm perfectly comfortable saying Hamas is a horrible **regime** that causes **wanton(?) destruction**.
>The conflating of Hamas with the Palestinian people is an issue on your end, not mine.
Literally something that Israel does and MSM. But it's not surprising that youre to stupid to pick up on that.
>If you want to support Hamas because they're fighting for the Palestinian people, go for it, just admit it clearly instead of dancing around it.
You should chill on calling people stupid when your reading comprehension is this low. Do better.
Ah, yes, pedantry where any human who isn't completely out of touch would understand, the classic fallback of the terminally emptyheaded. You're a clown who's fooled himself into thinking he's wise and spends his time speaking empty words on a forum and thinking he's doing some good in the world, when in reality, he's simply a waste of resources who nobody will miss.
Touch grass and learn how to talk to humans. Being a condescending troll on the internet is the lowest form of life.
Arabic atrocities against Jews didn't start of October 7th 2023, either.
As is typical with ethnic conflicts, this has been going on for centuries, with each attack being the excuse for a counter-attack, which is then an excuse for a counter-counter attack. And as is typical for ethnic conflicts, both sides has done and continue to do heinous actions.
>As is typical with ethnic conflicts, this has been going on for centuries, with each attack being the excuse for a counter-attack, which is then an excuse for a counter-counter attack
Really because historically speaking, before the start of Israel was created Jews lived in many Arab countries without much issue.
So this is patently false. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/islamichistory/s/cNfyTvPeLY) is a list of Arab lead massacres carried out against Jews dating back to the 1500’s. Not sure why you thought everything was sunshine and rainbows, but it wasn’t and you were lied to.
Lmao a Reddit post is your source?
And wtf the does Arab collaboration with Nazis mean, and how does that count as a massacre lead against Jews? Sounds like a way to try to link all Arabs to the Holocaust, which is fucking insane and an insult to Jews and Arabs.
If your source is a Reddit post you should rethink how you get your information. Loser.
> Really because historically speaking, before the state of Israel was created Jews lived in many Arab countries without much issue.
No, they didn't, there were antisemitic incidents before that all over the Arabic world. The Ottoman Empire valued the image of order, though, and cracked down when they got too bad. With the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the antisemitism got free reign, and started growing. You can see the pogroms intensifying in the 30's and 40's, before the founding of Israel.
>That's why after Israel was created you see a massive exoduc of Jews from the surrounding areas.
You saw that exodus because the Arab countries was clearly not safe places to be a Jew, with confiscation.of property, discrimination, and pogroms being the order of the day. This makes no sense in the nationalistic telling of the story: Why would the Arabic countries care about ethnicity if it was really about Israel. However, it makes perfect sense if we see it as an ethnic conflict.
>Theykved along side Jew before Israel existed I see no reason why they couldn't again. If only Israel was interested in meaningful peace...
Arabic states and organizations in general, and Palestinian organisations in particular, are generally very determined to genocide Jews. The peace Hamas want is one that does not include any Jews.
I get why the Palestinians are angry, they have gotten the raw end of the deal from everyone for the last century, but it does make a peace hard to imagine. In the same way the Israel's settler policy makes.it hard to imagine.
The ironic thing is that you post could equally well describe Palestinians in Israel, and Arabic Jews in the first half of last century.
It wasn't the Palestinians who persecuted Arabic Jews, but the victims of October 7th wasn't the people who stole Palestinian land and killed Palestinians, so that can't be a relevant metric, right?
> Israel is a state, not an ethnic group.
OK, what is this relevant for, and how? The underlying conflict is between Arabic Jews and Arabs, and not understanding that makes a lot of the conflict nonsensical.
Palestinians certainly has gotten a raw deal, not just from Israel, but from the rest of the Arabic world as well.
Holding people incarcerated and deprived of their basic human rights for an entire lifespan worth of time is pretty nonsensical regardless of the grand ethnoreligious narrative being pushed.
Palestinians are a tiny slice of a much larger group they don't answer for.
>Palestinians certainly has gotten a raw deal, not just from Israel, but from the rest of the Arabic world as well.
With this I agree. Which is another reason this isn't "both sides", but the story of a people that got a raw deal, and deserve justice, specially from the state apparatus that enacted this on them. They're not an acceptable token for sticking it to arab states.
As someone who admittedly isn't very familiar with the history of that phrase, I hear that and look at a map and think "Oh, I guess that means connect Gaza Strip, next to the sea, and the west bank, next to the river"
>"Black lives matter? Are you saying white lives don't matter? Huh? Huh?
How is "saying" River to Sea has genocidal origins, same as some one complaining for "not saying" All lives matter?
Work on your points.
Just as All lives matter is used to mask anti black rheotric,
River to Sea is used to mask anti jewish rheotric.
Do you even understand concepts of dog whistles?
>River to Sea is used to mask anti jewish rheotric.
Such self importance.
They want their own country because they don't have their own country. The slogan would work the same if the occupiers were aliens from space.
How is it genocidal when we call for the freedom of all Palestinians? Arab Muslims, Arab christians، Druze, Jews and Armenians, these are the major ethnicities that lived in Palestine before the Zionists came, and those who we want them to be free from apartheid, inequality and injustice.
Why are you using the charter from the 80s? Here's the revision from 2017: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
If you want, you can scroll down to the section called The Zionist Project to see this:
>Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
As usual, a Zionazi needs to lie to justify their bullshit, that slogan is way before Hamas, and Hamas is still better than IOF, so you can't bring it up as a counter argument
>liquidate the jews bit
That doesn't even exist lol. In fact the Hamas Charter actually recognizes a two-state solution as a possible solution. Regardless, the phrase "from the river to the sea" has existed long before Hamas was a thing, so it's a little silly to just label activists in the West as using "genocidal Hamas chants" whenever they say it
So you're saying the Likud party of Israel is also genocidal? Seeing as their own slogan is "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty"
Where does that imply they're going to genocide anyone? Hamas leadership has explicitly stated that Oct 7 wasn't a one off, this is how they plan to go from the Jordan to the sea. They've literally shown you what they want, and here you are carrying their water.
Just flat out shameful.
The person was claiming it was a genocidal chant, I'm asking if it applies to both parties or only when one says it?
But let's see what else the ruling says
"The emphasis is on damage, not on accuracy." - Daniel Hagari, Israeli Milatary Spokesperson.
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.” - Youv Gallant, Israel Defence Minister
“You either stand with Israel or you stand with terrorism”. - IDF on Twitter
“We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba" - Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter
"dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip was one of the possibilities" - Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu
“the village of Hawara needs to be wiped out. I think that the State of Israel needs to do that—not, God forbid, private individuals.” - Bezalel Scottish, Israeli Finance Minister (1st March 2023)
“the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and justifies its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” - Ayelet Shaked’s appointment as justice minister
Netanyahu quoting that bible verse comparing palestinians to the Amalek.
“You must remember what Amalek did to you, says our Holy Bible - Netayahu
The quote Netanyahu refers to is the book of Samuel in chapter 15 verse 3: “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
So you're right, the actions of Israel are flat out shameful. By international standards it's pure genocide.
Are you kidding me? Yeah, they should say “zionists” instead of Jews. Cuz it’s not like every Jewish citizen of Israel has to fight in the IDF, implying almost every citizen of Israel is a war criminal.
> Cuz it’s not like every Jewish citizen of Israel has to fight in the IDF
You are aware that Military Service is *compulsory* in Israel, for anyone over 18
>implying almost every citizen of Israel is a war criminal.
Well, if their elected overnment is committing war crimes and the citizens aren't out on the streets demonstrating, they are complicit
Yes, of course, but qualified by remembering a few things:
Only people now over 35 years old voted in the last election.
The last election was 2006. It's a military dictatorship.
About 40% are aged under 14. 50% aged under 18. Old enough to be victims and the next generation of terrorists.
Yes, of course, but qualified by remembering a few things:
Only people now over 35 years old voted in the last election.
About 40% are aged under 14. 50% aged under 18. Old enough to be victims and the next generation of terrorists.
The last election was 2006. It's a military dictatorship.
The headline is correct - from a South African point of view.
There are not Israeli citizens, they are South African citizens of Jewish religion or decent.
Most countries will have some Jewish citizens
Why do they need Jewish religion or descent? Aren't trigger-happy mercenaries and volunteers of any descent liable for prosecution too?!
Apartheid era had a few parallels with Israel, like nuclear cooperation, and rwo similar militant farmer-settler cultures.
I agree with your points (especially the farmer-settler parallel), but see a different subtext in the headline I guess.
Rather than it being profiling Jews for prosecution, it is the rise in the number of Jews (compared to day-to -day trigger happy military fantasist hicks) registering that triggered the article.
Yeah, feels like it would make more sense to say "South Africa threatens to prosecute citizens who have joined IDF and are involved in the Gaza Strip for potential warcrimes." Because holding dual citizenship, or being Jewish, or even being part of the IDF and fighting aren't prosecutable (at least in sane countries).
>even being part of the IDF and fighting aren't prosecutable (at least in sane countries).
You know? It is actually pretty fucking wild you can keep double nationality while being active part of a nation's armed forces, by definition you swear exclusive allegiance to that nation.
Yeah idk maybe fighting in another nation's army should be prosecutable? I can't imagine the American authorities would be happy with my if I randomly decided to go sign up for Ireland's military or something.
If you have dual citizenship, you are technically fighting for "your nation's" army. But South Africa can still say, what you did in the IDF is illegal in South Africa, and you are a South African, so we're going to prosecute you for your actions.
It’s the „Jewish Chronicle“ taking liberties with what the South African government said to add a „antisemitism!“ spin.
Which makes it weird that OP chose the JC as the source for this and not any of the many other well known outfits who properly report „South African citizens“ and not „Jews!“ as of this only applies to Jews.
Neerly all of the Jewish citizens of Israel have been at one point in the IDF as conscription is mandatory for Jews, still kinda racist from south Africa to not include the stupid amounts of arabs that serve in the Idf....
You can always refuse to join. You are not required to participate in the slaughtering of civilians. Those who join know what they’re doing, they deserve no sympathy
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not. If you’re South African living in South Africa you’re not able to be conscripted into the IDF in the first place. If your parents moved from South Africa to Israel and you were born in Israel, that’s a different story.
They do force people into combat if they have something called 97 profile which means no background disabilities and or diseases, they don't force anyone into special units and generally soldiers can transfer and such. Most people do however go into non combat roles, a lot end up in military intelligence and then usually straight into high paying tech jobs.
no, what you're missing is that they've jumped the gun and have already announced that IDF is committing war crimes so any so call citizen (originally refugees who are unlikely to return anyway) can be prosecuted for what the dictatorship has already deemed & judged to be war crimes.
And good luck with the poor & corrupt justice system in dictatorships...
It's one of the most anti-Semitic countries in Africa. When it was suggested Israel join some Africa alliance (as an observer I believe), it along with another country objected to it.
I don't have a lot (or any) facts to backup or explain a feeling of an entire society though
And yet, they haven't said the same things about volunteers for Hamas, you know, the terrorist organization that killed hundreds and commited mass rapes.
It depends. Do they consider Hamas a terrorist organization?[https://adnanabuamer.com/post/2408/hamas-draws-parallels-with-apartheid-during-south-africa-visit](https://adnanabuamer.com/post/2408/hamas-draws-parallels-with-apartheid-during-south-africa-visit) They don't. Apparently just because they genocided everybody they found and commited mass rapes is not enough. So if it's not an illegal organization, you mean it's legal for south africa citizens to join Hamas?
"Such a stupid whataboutism" We are literally talking about the same conflict.
This would be pretty standard in many countries revoking citizenship if you serve in a foreign military. Especially if that military is not considered friendly.
In the US a natural born citizen cannot have their citizenship revoked. It's in the 14th Amendment.
Also I don't think people are thinking this through. If it isn't already, stripping citizenship of a natural born citizen should be a human rights violation. You're talking about making a person stateless and dumping them on the rest of the world to deal with. A refugee for the entire world. Deal with your own shit instead of dumping it on others
Entirely different. The US supports Ukraine. The SA doesn't support Israel.
If US fighters where fighting for Russia, you'd probably want them prosecuted right?
> If it isn't already, stripping citizenship of a natural born citizen should be a human rights violation.
It is if they only have one citizenship. For dual citizens, it is not a human rights violation to remove in if the citizenships. It varies whether countries accept dual citizenships.
It literally is…our government is just making the gun happy citizens who are booking their flights realise that if and when they do come back. They will be in trouble legally.
Any citizen of a nation that goes and signs up for another countries army is suspect.
Revoke their citizenship and let their claimed country keep them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/11x78ld/new_zealander_fighting_in_ukraine_understood_to/
A Kiwi was KIA fighting for Ukraine. Why don't you go tell his parents he was "suspect" and deserved to be stripped of his citizenship
The british army is full of south africans, pacific islanders, kiwis, aussies and ironically a fair few Irish, along with literal regiments of nepalis yet you never hear any of those countries callign for them to be stripped of citizenship.
In fact the calls tend to be that they should get British ones.
Awesome. Let those South Africans, Pacific Islanders, Kiwis, Aussies, and Nepali forfeit there citizenship and become Brits.
If you wanna fight for a foreign army then they can have you.
Apartheid is a severe form of institutional discrimination and systematic oppression based on race or ethnicity, and is prohibited by international law and crime against humanity.
Apartheid consists of three primary elements:
An intent to maintain domination by one racial group over another;
A context of systematic oppression by the dominant group over the marginalized group;
Inhumane acts such as “forcible transfer” and “expropriation of landed property.”
Israel is an apartheid according to human rights watch, amnesty international, Btselem(Israeli human rights watch) and by the admission of Israeli officials like former mossad head and others.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
>amnesty international
And Amnesty International has publicy said that calling Israel an "apartheid state" was basically a publicity stunt that doesn't have anything to do with South Africa.
Quoting amnesty international website
"Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. *This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law*."
Amnesty International hosted events with speakers that supported israeli genocide, and they have a messy relation with the mulim brotherhood.
They are definitely not an impartial observer.
And yeah, in one of their documents they admitted they used the word "apartheid" because it sounded better, and they literally admitted it doesn't have anything to do with south africa.
I absolutely believe you are lying about amnesty international. human rights watch and Btselem which is leading Israeli human rights organization say Israel is an apartheid
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
It was institutionalized racial separation and discrimination sanctioned by law. Under apartheid all Black South Africans were stripped of their citizenship, just like the Nuremberg laws stripped Jews of their German citizenship. Africans became alien migrant workers in their own country.
Israeli Arabs are citizens, enjoy all rights of citizens, including the vote
In September, Tamir Pardo, who headed the Mossad, Israel’s national intelligence agency, under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu from 2011 to 2016, said that Israel is imposing apartheid on the Palestinians.
In August, the former Northern Commander of the Israeli army described the situation in the West Bank as one of “total apartheid.” In June, former United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon and former UN Human Rights Commissioner Mary Robinson, wrapping up a trip to Israel/Palestine, highlighted the “ever growing evidence” they found that “the situation meets the international legal definition of apartheid” and highlighted that they “heard no detailed rebuttal of the evidence of apartheid.”
"situation meets the international legal definition of apartheid" Which is? Amnesty international were the ones that had the idea of calling Israel situation in the occupied territories apartheid, and they have literally said it's not the same as south africa.
For example, iraqui citizens not being allowed to enter the green zone, and having to go to numerous military checkpoints with US soldiers. Is the same as apartheid?
Military occupation is not apartheid. Apartheid was minority rule over a majority population. Military occupation a foreign land is definitely NOT the same as apartheid. You can say military occupation and I won't say anything. But the US occupying Iraq was not apartheid.
Denial is not river in Egypt.
I will leave it to the legal experts to define apartheid.
Apartheid is particularly severe form of institutional discrimination and systematic oppression based on race or ethnicity, and is prohibited by international law. *While apartheid was coined in relation to South Africa, international treaties, including the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, UN resolutions, and many countries’ domestic laws define it as a universal legal term that applies globally.*
Apartheid is also a crime against humanity, as set out both in the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid and the 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. It consists of three primary elements:
An intent to maintain domination by one racial group over another;
A context of systematic oppression by the dominant group over the marginalized group;
Inhumane acts such as “forcible transfer” and “expropriation of landed property.”
According to the legal experts Israel meets these elements.
Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging. The discrimination in these laws is either explicit – “discrimination on its face” – or, more often, the laws are worded in a seemingly neutral manner, but have or will likely have a disparate impact on Palestinians in their implementation.
These laws limit the rights of Palestinians in all areas of life, from citizenship rights to the right to political participation, land and housing rights, education rights, cultural and language rights, religious rights, and due process rights during detention. Some of the laws also discriminate against other
groups such as gays, non-religious Jews, and Palestinian refugees."
List of these laws
https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index
" Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging" Are you serious? Are you saying that non-Israel citizens have less rights than Israeli citizens? We'll, of course!!!
Tell me, where are you from? The US? How many laws there are that discriminate me, a non US citizen over you, a citizen?
Seriously, I can't even vote in your elections! How much discrimination is that!
Did you conveniently miss the part where it says *Palestinian citizens in Israel*
Adalah’s Discriminatory Laws Database (DLD) is an online resource comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against *Palestinian citizens in Israel* and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging. The discrimination in these laws is either explicit – “discrimination on its face” – or, more often, the laws are worded in a seemingly neutral manner, but have or will likely have a disparate impact on Palestinians in their implementation.
>Palestinian citizens in Israel
>
> and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT
I have read it.
And it doesn't differenciate about which laws only discriminate against non-citizizens, and which laws discriminate against non-jews.
Ok, let's take a look at the laws:
[https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/608](https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/608) First one. Law for Revocation of Citizenship or Residency of a Terrorist who Receives Compensation for Carrying out a Terrorist Act. [https://www.adalah.org/uploads/uploads/Translation\_Law\_Revocation\_Citizenship\_Residency\_15\_February\_2023.pdf](https://www.adalah.org/uploads/uploads/Translation_Law_Revocation_Citizenship_Residency_15_February_2023.pdf) It doesn't say anything about palestinian or jews.
[https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/609](https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/609) Second one. “Hametz Law” - The Patient's Rights Act (Amendment No. 13) 2023. This law grants hospital directors complete authority and discretion to ban the entry of leavened food (“hametz”) into hospitals in Israel during the seven-day Jewish holiday of Passover. The most important law in history, indeed.
That's it with the apartheid laws of 2023
2022 [https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610](https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610) Absorption of Discharged Soldiers Law - Benefits for Discharged Soldiers Most palestinians don't have to go to the army, so it's discrimatory. OK?. The law itself is neutral
2021, nothing. 2020, nothin. 2019, nothing. 2018, nothing. 2017, nothing. Damn apartheid goverment. Do something!!
2016, [https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/597](https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/597) “Stop-and-Frisk” Law - Amendment No. 5 to the Authorities for Maintaining Public Security Law 5765-2005 . The law itself is neutral. It doesn't discriminate. It just says that it "could" be used against palestinians. That's like saying that a US neutral law that regulares where police can frisk people is discriminatory because police will use to frisk laws. That's stupid.
[https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/598](https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/598) "Anti-Terror" (Counter-Terrorism) Law . There is nothing discrimatory about the law. But it could be used against palestinians organizations.
Seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean, dude. There is stretching the definitions of discrimination, and there is this. Where are you from? Please, tell me. I'll go look at your legislation and I bet I can find a hundred laws worse.
Now let's take a look at Jordan, where half the population is palestinian and probably the place where citizens of palestinian origin have more rights not counting Israel
. [https://www.refworld.org/docid/49749cfcc.html](https://www.refworld.org/docid/49749cfcc.html)
Although Palestinians constitute around half of the population, they remain vastly under-represented in Jordanian government. Nine of the 55 Senators appointed by the king are Palestinian, and in the 110-seat Chamber of Deputies, Palestinians have only 18 seats. Of Jordan's 12 governates, none are led by Palestinians.
Discrimination against Palestinians in private and state-sector employment remains common and a quota system limits the number of university admissions for Palestinian youth.
Government security operations disproportionately target Palestinians, especially operations conducted in the name of fighting terror. Amnesty International reported in July 2006 that Jordanian security services were more likely to torture detainees if they were Palestinian.
Lmao some unrelated whataboutism. Maybe it’s because South Africa realizes the horrors and atrocities committed by Israel are far worse than anything Pakistan is doing.
Nah bro. You don't get to say that South Africa is against Israel because it's strongly against "apartheid" and then cry "whataboutism" to avoid acknowledging the fact that they've never condemned Pakistani apartheid once.
If South Africa actually cared about apartheid, they'd care about Pakistan's segregated parliament too. But they don't.
Maybe it’s because Pakistan isn’t an apartheid society, unlike Israel who blatantly treats Palestinians as non-human undeserving or life or rights. No amount of deflection will excuse Israel’s abuse and murder of Palestinians in the West Bank or their slaughter of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
The world sees Israel for the apartheid ethno-Nationalist state it is. No amount of Hasbara shills will change that.
>Maybe it’s because Pakistan isn’t an apartheid society,
Except it literally is. Only Muslims are allowed to run for the Pakistani parliament, except for a small number of token seats with no real power that are reserved for non-Muslims.
This is EXACTLY the same type of parliament that apartheid South Africa used to have. Only whites were allowed to run for parliament, except for a small number of token seats with no real power that were reserved for non-whites.
No amount of whining about "Israeli shills" will cover up the fact that you can't even bring yourself to condemn Pakistani apartheid at all, let alone spend as much time and effort constantly criticizing it like you do with Israel.
Yea let me know when Pakistan starts killing hundreds of civilians a day, flattening city blocks, attacking hospitals and killing doctors, sniping children, women, and elderly. Bombing journalists and killing their families. Then I’ll be happy to criticize Pakistan as well.
Zionists and their persecution complex is pathetic. Israel deserves far more hate than it gets. Meanwhile here’s a great [report](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) by the Human Rights Watch outlining precisely why Israel is an apartheid state. Maybe you should read it buddy
So keeping non-Muslims permanently excluded from political power by having the *exact same type* of segregated parliament that South Africa used to have doesn't count as apartheid to you?
They're literally allowed into parliament and have reserved seats...
Is Pakistan also an apartheid because the only people allowed to sell alcohol are non Muslims?
You absolutely did not answer my question at all. You have instead repeatedly refused to say whether or not you think that a parliament that is segregated between Muslims and non-Muslims in the exact same way that the South African parliament was segregated between whites and non-whites is a form of apartheid or not.
That's because the non-Muslims accept it. The South African Apartheid regime wouldn't be terrorizing non-whites either if they just graciously accepted their inferior position in society.
Same thing ironically with Lebanese Palestinians; under a stricter Apartheid than in the West Bank, but more peaceful.
They're also literally racist where they're willing to negatively generalise Arabs and Muslims. They know they are pro apartheid and pro racism but they don't like being called out on it
https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/YdIEHRuLqT
How stupid do you think we are.
Straight from the [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution):
> Israeli authorities methodically privilege Jewish Israelis and discriminate against Palestinians. Laws, policies, and statements by leading Israeli officials make plain that the objective of maintaining Jewish Israeli control over demographics, political power, and land has long guided government policy. In pursuit of this goal, authorities have dispossessed, confined, forcibly separated, and subjugated Palestinians by virtue of their identity to varying degrees of intensity. In certain areas, as described in this report, these deprivations are so severe that they amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.
Can’t wait for you to start accusing them of being Hamas supporters
Maybe if you were literate, then you would realize the first sentence literally debunks your entire premise.
And keep crying about HRW for not favoring Israel, it’s hilarious. Here’s another [report](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) to help you cope. The world is waking up to how pathetic and evil the Israeli state is, and your shilling won’t stop it.
Plenty of shameful things israel ford you won’t hear me say otherwise but I can’t I can’t tell if your serious ? It doesn’t debunk anything actually.
How did you read the whole thing in one minute ? Do you think reading the title of something makes you knowledgeable on the whole article ?
It’s funny how you tried that. Want to actually look at it ?
Lmao this is rich. These reports are years old, Israel’s crimes have been going on for years. Yes I’ve read these reports and far more, that’s why I understand how barbaric and evil the Israeli government is.
Maybe you should try reading them instead of immediately linking to a Wikipedia page to reinforce your pathetic victim complex. That way you’ll understand how wrong you truly are.
You talk about nazi germany and compare it to Israel.
Yet only one side has commited one in this situation, by UN definition Oct 7th was a genocide. So who are the Nazis again ?
You're right, but that doesn't matter to guys like him. He's an idiot, and he's not going to stop being one any time soon. He has his sources to cling to, and it doesn't matter if they don't hold up, he's never going to change his opinion.
I'd say just stop playing with him.
Amnesty International has the same selection bias.
You are free to call Israel an Apartheid State if you want. Note Amnesty considers even [Israel proper](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/)(not just say the West Bank) as under Apartheid.
The problem is that they do detailed research of other countries like [Lebanon](https://nakba.amnesty.org/en/chapters/lebanon/) and even though we have a situation where people that lived their entire lives there cannot become citizens due to their ancestry, cannot own property, cannot receive government benefits, are legally barred from 30 professions, it's not Apartheid. Hell, Amnesty doesn't even think they need to provide a path to citizenship (and thus give voting rights), just cut down the oppression a bit.
Really? You're sure about that?
Persecution of religious minorities: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious\_discrimination\_in\_Pakistan#:\~:text=Attacks%20on%20religious%20minorities%20in,of%20forced%20conversions%20and%20marriages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_discrimination_in_Pakistan#:~:text=Attacks%20on%20religious%20minorities%20in,of%20forced%20conversions%20and%20marriages).
Pakistani Genocide in Bangladesh: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_genocide)
Pakistan support for terrorism in India: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan\_and\_state-sponsored\_terrorism#:\~:text=The%20government%20of%20Pakistan%20has,committed%20by%20non%2Dstate%20actors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_state-sponsored_terrorism#:~:text=The%20government%20of%20Pakistan%20has,committed%20by%20non%2Dstate%20actors).
Suppression of Baluchistan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency\_in\_Balochistan
Nothing Israel has ever done compares to Pakistani atrocities in Bangladesh . Hundreds of thousands, possible millions, murdered, and hundreds of thousands more raped and forced from their homes.
Oh so Pakistan is evil for killing civilians and forcing people from their homes in the 70s? What does that make Israel for doing that TODAY?
I love how every attempt at deflection just further exposes how evil of a country Israel really is.
you said: *"Maybe it’s because South Africa realizes the horrors and atrocities committed by Israel are far worse than anything Pakistan is doing"*
I provided some facts that disprove that statement. Pakistan has done much, much worse thing than Israel has ever done.
So try again.
Pakistan does not have a Muslim only parliament. Anyone can run and win any position except for the head of state. There are reserved seats for minorities but they can run on any seat. The ahmadiyya are a heretical sect of Islam that are most certainly oppressed, but they are not prohibited from running either. The constitution of Pakistan explicitly calls them non Muslims and they must declare that they are not Muslim to run for parliament. This is extremely wrong but it's not in any way analogous to the Israel Palestine situation
Luckily Israel doesn't have a jewish only parliament either, which alone makes the whole apartheid thing bollocks.
SA doesn't support Israel because the ANC is pro soviet/pro russia has always therefore supported the arabs.
> When's the last time a gazan was able to run for the Israeli parliament?
I've always loved when people try this line.
Is Gaza part of Israel? Because unless it's part of Israel then Israel isn't purusing an apartheid policy.
Of course if you truly belive that Gaza is part of Israel maybe you might need tot ell the Israelis that because they don't seem to be aware of this fact, especially since they sent in the IDF to remove all jewish settlers from there years ago in exhange for a ceasefire with Hamas (which Hamas broke)
>I've always loved when people try this line.
>
>Is Gaza part of Israel? Because unless it's part of Israel then Israel isn't pursuing an apartheid policy.
Do you have no idea what a Bantustan was? When did you end you education, 3rd grade?
Just lol mate.
Bantustans were literally part of South Africa that only South Africa tried to claim were independent.
Gaza on the other hand isn't part of Israel according to Israel, Palestine, Hamas, the PLO, the UN and indeed every single perosn on earth except those trying desperately to try and pin the bad word on the bad country.
It si a military occupation, just like Egypt did until the Yom Kippur war but I'm sorry if that's just not emotive enough for you.
When you control all the borders, the water, the food, the electricity and even how and where they can fish, then for all intents and purposes they are a part of that nation since they do not have self determination.
Eschewing the responsibility and using it as a guise to say it isn’t apartheid doesn’t really fool anyone who is paying attention.
Lol, it's called military occupation mate.
The only guise here is the self defeating attempting to perform the mental gymnastics required to shoehorn in the term Apartheid.
It literally can't be Apartheid unless it's part of Israel.
And you'd be wrong.
Just because you really, really, really don't like someone and you really, really, really want everyone to know they're hoorible doesn't mean that you can just say they're the worst thing you can think off and make it true.
Especially since anyone who has any vague notion of what's going on as well as remembering just what Apartheid was will just dismiss you as a moron who has no idea the meaning of the words you're using.
Which I'm pretty certain isn't the look youre going for.
If you were such a knowledgeable dude about this you'll have realized that I'm talking about West Bank specifically Area C where the settler population is replacing the Palestinians natives basically committing ethnic cleansing I'm not talking about the Israel retreat from Gaza so I don't know what the hell is Israel demolishing settler's houses in Gaza has anything to do with West Bank.
Also explain how Israel is not having an apartheid regime in West Bank and how they are not ethnic cleasning the region.
> Also explain how Israel is not having an apartheid regime in West Bank
Because it's not part of Israel.
Military occupation/colonisation is not apartheid. You're literally using the wrong words because it sounds more emotive that way.
And before you try to be more condescending than you already are just consider why people might be talking about gaza considering that this is an article about the conflict ....in gaza.
Yes because Israel is not sending foreign settlers to settle on West bank and expulse Palestinians from their ancestral home.If Israel just military occupied the area I'd agree with you.But they are actively ethnic cleansing the area and trying to get a Jewish majority in the area and not only that settler violence on Palestinian not only is active but actively encouraged.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/palestinians-flee-villages-as-settler-violence-surges-in-west-bank-amid-war/ar-AA1lKvxH
If you want me to not criticize Israel for apartheid policies then they shouldn't be such a backwards nation.
I'm being condencending because you actively told me that I'm too stupid to get this situation and let the adults speak.You weren't using these exact words but I'm on mobile so I'm too lazy to check your words verbatim.
The article was speaking about Gaza yes but this comment chain began talking about Apartheid policies of Israel.I agree that they are not having an ethnic cleansing or genocide in Gaza.I just said they have an apartheid regime in West Bank.
Always a problem when ti turns out the favourite buzzword doesn't actually refelct reality.
Israel is militarily occupying Gaza but apparently that's not bad enough so people have to make up stuff so that they can use the absolute worst thing when the merely very bad isn't enough.
Except that apartheid isn't limited to who can join Parlament. That (non-jewish) people born in Israel, whose family have always lived there, don't get citizenship and are defacto stateless is an example why Israel is an apartheid state.
>Except that apartheid isn't limited to who can join Parlament
So you've already removed one of the absolute most major parts of Apartheid in order to try and prove that Israel has Apartheid. The whole point of Apartheid was to disenfranchise non whites, if there;s no one getting disenfranchised it's not apartheid.
> That (non-jewish) people born in Israel, whose family have always lived there, don't get citizenship and are defacto stateless is an example why Israel is an apartheid state
Except that's utter bollocks as 20% of israels population is Arab, hence why arab parties (voted for by arabs who are Israelis citizens) have been in governement.
Once again, the entire point of Apartheid was to keep minority white rule by denying everyone else meaningful votes. Israel is not an aprtheid state if they give full citizenship to non jews and especially arabs.
The whole Apartheid lie is based on the mental gymnastics that Israel's occupation of the gaza strip is the same thing as the gaza strip being part of Israel, which is hilarious bollocks if you think about it for more than a few seconds and shows why it's pure propaganda for the 'everyone I hate is a Nazi' level of online debaters.
Reread what you wrote, to make it easy for you I will cite it.
> Israel is not an aprtheid state if they give full citizenship to non jews and especially arabs.
Israel doesn't give full citizenship to non Jews, so according to yourself it is apartheid.
> mental gymnastics that Israel's occupation of the gaza strip is the same thing as the gaza strip being part of Israel
Nowhere did I mention Gaza, because this applies to people in Jeruzalem (and west bank).
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/statelessness-east-jerusalem-sheikh-jarrah-human-rights-and-solution-citizenship
It is simple Israeli law that was introduced to let Israel keep its Jewish character.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-knesset-passes-law-barring-palestinian-spouses-2022-03-10/
>Israel doesn't give full citizenship to non Jews, so according to yourself it is apartheid
Except Israel does. What they don't offer non jews is automatic citizenship based on right of return.
Once again, Israel is not an apartheid state.
I'm literally stating israeli [law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law).
lol at the inability to google.[ Israeli parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset) includes democratically elected Arab parties right now, and they even were [part of the ruling coalition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_government_of_Israel) last election cycle
Are you really trying to tell me it's better to shoehorn "minorities" into the government rather than to have a democratic process that gives said minorities a way to be elected?
Not even counting that the "quota" for minorities in Pakistan is 10 out of 342 seats of the parliament, and in Israel it's 10 currently elected Knesset members out of 120? You don't need to be a math genius to calculate where minorities hold more voting power
I never said that. I made a very specific claim and you said "Oh but Google says this" and your source says nothing that relates to me claim
But again, your comment history shows you're a racist anyway
No, that's a farce [https://scroll.in/article/815298/why-the-reservation-of-seats-for-minorities-in-pakistans-assembly-is-farcical](https://scroll.in/article/815298/why-the-reservation-of-seats-for-minorities-in-pakistans-assembly-is-farcical)
[https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/4/9/how-death-and-despair-haunt-pakistans-christian-minority](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/4/9/how-death-and-despair-haunt-pakistans-christian-minority)
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/08/pakistan-denies-voting-rights-religious-community](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/08/pakistan-denies-voting-rights-religious-community)
Pakistan is a military dictatorship in all but name, the last PM to go against the army is currently in a jail cell, those elections are meaningless. Ending military rule and establishing fair elections is far more important than adding “fairness” to blatantly unfair and rigged elections.
I would not use Castro as a reference to anything, he created several militias to topple governments in almost every Latin American country since the 60's, those militias would become the main reason as to why half of South America is brimming with drugs now.
A simple Google would've revealed a whole bunch of official articles, including DOJ cases. But since you seem unable to do even basic research, [here's the spoonfed overview for you, sweetie.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking)
Your history book is a little bit confused, the Cuba backed militias were communists, EEUU used the State Department to use those countries military forces to answer to those militias, only in certain countries like Colombia, paramilitary groups like AUC were created to oppose those militias with horrible consequences to the entire country.
Would you be friends with Hitler, Mao, Nicolás Maduro, Osama Bin Laden, etc. if they were willing to support your cause?
I’m not saying Mandela was a bad dude, but that is a huge disappointment.
If Maduro was willing to support anti apartheid maybe, the rest no.
Castro wasn’t a good dude by any means, but I don’t think he’s this immensely evil dictator the other ones you mentioned are.
Americans have tendency to not look in the mirror when war criminals topic is brought up. They be damning firegin leaders and saying nothing about Kissinger, Bush and the rest.
The only reason Maduro/Chavez and Castro are up there with the other ones is because Cuba and Venezuela don’t have as many people as China, and because the world deaf about Latin America, but they’re absolutely up there in the “you should DEFINITELY not accept their friendship or help”.
Castro did a lot more than vote at the UN.
He sent a brigade of combat units to fight the israelis in 67 and 73. They got *plastered* during the Israeli counterattack in the golan
Before going on tangents can you explain how the age of the state of Israel has anything to do with whether it's an apartheid state?
Yes the Russian Federation is about 35 years old though it was preceded by the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic which in turn was preceded by the Russian Empire and so on ergo significantly different from what you're trying to imply about Israel.
u/EH1987 specifically talked about the state of Israel. States are a fairly modern idea (Going back just 300 years or so)
Though again, that has zero bearing on apartheid
Ireland can smell the bullshit of an occupier and knows who is the victim and the perpetrator.
How Israel treats Palestine is exactly how the British treated them. They don't fall for Zionist lies and bullshit.
Good people.
Not really educated countries but countries with colonial history like france that killed 1.000.000 Algerians in Algeria war of independence and USA which almost eradicated natives and enslaved black people etc etc
Yeah, because the Arabs didn’t colonize and enslave people either LOL.
The only difference is the West is now a developed, progressive society built on freedoms and civil rights, while in Saudi Arabia women couldn’t even drive a few years ago.
Since the majority of Jewish people are zionists. Since zionists just means that the Jewish people should be able to keep their own state like almost every other ethnic group can without any controversy.
Indeed we aren't, you've told a lie there. Ireland's sympathies were with Israel up until about the '50s and '60s because it related to the Jewish struggle to establish a homeland. After that point and the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians became more and more well-known, Irish people largely went the other direction.
I am still waiting for South Africa to comden the attacks they are doing to their own current minority. I mean, for starters, we have a presiden of South Africa singing songs of "shoot the boer, shoot the farmer" and we have countries have Canada accepting people from South Africa as refugees.
Unlike MLK and Mandela? (who received an honorary doctorate from Ben Gurion university) They just want to distract people from their failed kleptocratic state.
Unfettered immigration of people into an occupied territory has and is a large part of the problem for Palestinians. American kids heading over to set up an illegal settlement and practice their shooting skills.
An estimated 600,000 Americans were in Israel prior to Oct. 7
The people fighting for Ukraine are from nations that are allies with Ukraine. South Africa and Israel are famously not allies. It would be like an American going to fight for North Vietnam during the Vietnam War, and somehow expecting the American to not face consequences from his home country.
South Africa, since the end of apartheid, has been very against Israel and pro Palestine. You can find countless videos of Nelson Mandela as President defending his support for Yasser Arafat.
The USSR was never formally at war with the US, but you can guarantee the US is not gonna take kindly to an American citizen fighting as a soldier for the USSR and vice versa.
And isn't it common sense that South Africa would be so averse to an apartheid state, given its own history?
I'm not arguing that South Africa shouldn't be averse to its citizens fighting in the armed forces of another country without its permission. That should be the case regardless of the other country. And if they are at opposition politically, then even moreso.
But your initial analogy was vastly different. That would be traitorous behaviour. This isn't even close to that.
Sorry man, you've jumped the shark. It's obviously not the same thing as actively fighting in a military against your own military and people. Not even close. Step back and think about it a little.
I don't think I can spell it out for you any clearer than I already have. South Africans who support apartheid are traitors to their country and deserve whatever punishment their nation metes out to them. South Africa doesn't have to be at war with Israel for that to be.
Well no, I just seems unclear.
You're saying that fighting on behalf of a country isn't equal to joining their armed forces. Fine, but these foreign volunteers have joined their armed forces. The foreign legion (like most others) is a part of their armed forces, they're personnel now.
Unless you just mean "some countries are okay with you joining a foreign military and others arent".
12,000 French soldiers and 32,000 French sailors joined my country's fight for independence. Polish Generals came to assist the war effort too. They're all heroes
As enlisted persons? I mean it's not unheard of and different places have different rules. Generally when that sort of thing happens though, it's as foreign troops, they don't become [the country you're from]'s soldiers. Generally. Ymmv.
If you’re a naturalized South African citizen and they catch you fighting in the IDF, they will strip your citizenship. Can’t find any info on people born there though.
I'm pretty sure stripping citizens of citizenship is a human rights violation. No one wants stateless people drifting around the world trying to find a home
Naturalised citizens risk losing their citizenship. Born and bred South Africans risk jail time. Dual citizens can probably get their citizenship revoked.
I don’t know why it sounds complicated. The article is definitely biased and probably losing a lot of the nuance but there’s nothing illegal about what our government is threatening.
Stripping people of their last citizenship is a human rights violation, exactly because international law runs on citizenships. Stripping dual citizens of one of their citizenships is not a human rights violation, so that light he what they are doing?
South Africa doesn't strip the citizenship of South Africans that join the French foreign legion, to my knowledge. I know at least one was fighting insurgents in the Sahel with the legion. Seems like a bit of a double standard
This is entire report of full of nonsense, Israel has don't use mercenaries is Gaza or any place else, the picture in the article are of the Israeli police.
They absolutely are [using](https://twitter.com/talhaahmad967/status/1737242405135593756) mercenaries and also considering there are many testimonies from Palestinian civilians of hearing solders talking in English and other languages.
Amusingly enough the mercenary being mentioned in the El Mundo article compares the tactics of Russia and Hamas for their love of human shields. Smart thinking of the IDF to hire folks used to dealing with such tactics.
They do, in the US a House Rep showed up in an IDF uniform to Congress.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4254384-brian-mast-israeli-military-uniform-capitol-hill/
> As the only member to serve with both the United States Army and the Israel Defense Forces, I will always stand with Israel
I know what he means by that, but since he mentioned the US Army just before I can't help thinking he means he stands with Isreal over the US.
Isn't the Sudanese war a Civil war between armed participants? Bit of a difference between that and the Israeli occupation and genocide of the Native Population of Palestine. But you keep spouting your rhetoric given to you by your zionist propagandists
Wasn't the troubles a civil war between armed participants? Bit of a difference between that and the genocide of the English population of the UK. But you keep spouting your rhetoric given to you by your catholic priests
What......what has that got anything to do with the above? You point doesn't even make sense! Who committed genocide of the English population of the UK? What priests? What are you smoking? Can I have some?
Exactly. It seems to be this 'duo polar world' those talked about with those political lines generally being between the west and "east".
Specifically between democracies & dictatorships.
**IF** you and I are both right, this can lead to decades & centuries of tensions which *might* result in a world war. This prediction is poor because it's too far into the future with trying to predict politics or behavior and not anything based on numbers.
#####	
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> # [South Africa threatens to prosecute Jewish citizens fighting for IDF](https://api.thejc.atexcloud.io/image-service/view/acePublic/alias/contentid/1820pnsno7i5e0m3jgf/1/1857153934.webp?w=1280)
>
>
>
> The South African government has threatened to prosecute citizens fighting for the Israel Defence Forces against Hamas terrorists in the Gaza Strip, according to a report by AFP.
>
> The government said it was “gravely concerned” that some South African nationals have joined the Israeli military, adding: “Such action can potentially contribute to the violation of international law and the commission of further international crimes, thus making them liable for prosecution in South Africa.”
>
> The report suggested that South Africans need government approval to fight for Israel and that the State Security Agency was tracking down those who had enlisted.
>
> South Africans are at risk of having their citizenship stripped for engaging in a war that the country “does not support or agree with”, the report said, citing a Foreign Ministry statement.
>
> On Monday, President Cyril Ramaphosa denounced Israel's response to Hamas's October 7 massacre as a “genocidal onslaught and slaughter of the people of Palestine”.
>
> Earlier this month, a senior Hamas delegation arrived in South Africa to participate in the Fifth Global Convention of Solidarity with Palestine. The delegation included politburo member Bassem Naim, Hamas representative in Iran Khaled Qaddoumi and the representative in East, Central and Southern Africa Emad Saber.
>
> South Africa is one of few countries that recognises Hamas as a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.
>
> Last month, the National Assembly, South Africa’s parliament, passed a non-binding resolution by 248-91 to suspend diplomatic ties with Israel.
>
> A week before, Israel recalled its ambassador to South Africa for consultations after the ruling African National Congress accused Israel of “genocide” in Gaza. ANC spokeswoman Mahlengi Bhengu-Motsiri said: “We cannot sit back and watch the genocidal actions of the Israeli regime.”
>
> The move came two weeks after Pretoria recalled its diplomats from Israel.
>
> “We are … extremely concerned at the continued killing of children and innocent civilians in the Palestinian territories and we believe the nature of response by Israel has become one of collective punishment,” Foreign Minister Naledi Pandor said at the time.
>
> Pandor spoke by phone with Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh on 17 October, less than two weeks after the terror organisation invaded south-western Israel and massacred 1,200 people, wounded more than 5,000 others, and took some 240 hostages back to Gaza.
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I'd imagine they are doing this also in preparation for them to cut ties with South Africa completely. It can't be any fun living in South Africa waiting for the hammer to fall.
Sorry empleadoEstatalBot,
I haven't found any additional coverage for this story (yet!).
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It’s such a shame that people are so blinded by their own self-interests. Jews were a key part of the white-led resistance to apartheid in South Africa, and yet some (far from all) turn around and fight for another country that does it
Because arresting Putin would have been a declaration of war against Russia with Western countries laughing behind their backs at South Africa for being foolish enough to have done that.
There's no country in the real world who are going to touch the rulers of Russia,China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea.
People expecting an African country to go ahead and commit suicide on the global stage by arresting one of them(Putin ),were simply trafficking in fantasy.
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