I don't know why you are being downvoted. I personally will never set foot on a boeing product ever again after what they did to aviation safety with the 737 max. I guess people have short memories, too bad.
For your safety I hope you never get into a car. Flying in a Boeing is far more safe than any vehicle. Aviation has become extremely safe largely because of Boeing.
There's 346 dead people that flew the 737 max that would disagree with this statement. Boeing went from being an ambassador of aviation to being evil for the sake of a buck with the 737 max. They should have been sued out of existence for this but their military contracts will always prop them up.
> evil for the sake of a buck
Those are sensational headlines. Have you read the official accident reports?
> their military contracts will always prop them up
Have you seen how much money they are losing on those military contracts?
That doesn't change the fact that Boeing made multiple inexcusable errors in the design and implementation of MCAS.
Any competent aircraft manufacturer believes in redundancy, plus training pilots on the equipment they are flying.
And maybe it wasn't a crash, but someone did die in a 737 accident in the US [five years ago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1380).
> I like that I'm getting downvoted for saying commercial aircraft should have redundant systems and pilots trained on them.
Maybe it is because you are spouting sensational media narratives in a forum where there are experts. You don't know what you are talking about.
Study the actual reports from the investigators. Learn the complexities. Modern airline accidents don't happen from one single cause. Tragedies in real life are not always caused buy sinister villains, corruption, and greed.
Of course, Boeing made mistakes, but learn the details before commenting here.
Meanwhile Airbus repeatedly has issues of both pilots entering conflicting commands into their side sticks and stalling or crashing their planes, yet nothing is being done to correct that issue.
I think he is referring to AF447, a crash from 14 years ago and I’m pretty sure there hasn’t been one since. Also spatial disorientation can happen on any type of aircraft resulting in that kind of crash, it’s not just an Airbus or Boeing thing.
You could argue that the pitot tube issues were an example of Airbus negligence but that would be difficult as Airbus was cooperating with the regulator to solve the issue and had passed out a technical note regarding the issue and a fix in the long term.
You mean the 4 billion dollar in fines that airbus paid out to the US, France, and the UK for bribing government officials?
Geez, they sure wouldn't hide anything from anyone.
A quick google shows that those bribes were relating to securing contracts, nothing to do with mislead regulators regarding the safety of their aircraft resulting in the death of hundreds.
"They just bribed government officials, its no big deal, i'm sure they are keeping their nose clean with other governmental entities that could be standing in their way of profit."
This is getting really nasty. I assume that we are all interested in aviation safety. Both Boeing and Airbus (and other manufacturers) make good aircraft and have also made mistakes.
I may have my favorite aircraft (Boeing), but I *never* want to see the competition have a catastrophic incident. That is bad for the entire industry.
Competition in business keeps each manufacturer competitive, but we should *never* revel in tragedy.
Nothing to do with safety, the max has its issues and they are now sorted. I just can’t see what edge the max has over the a320neo family right now beyond getting the airframes sooner.
I’m asking the question and there has been a resounding silence apart from delivery slots…
I’m not claiming to know better, I’m asking the question to learn and not many people are able to answer.
If you were an airline and you were looking to expand your narrow-body fleet, the best option would depend on the details of your operations and your routes.
https://simpleflying.com/the-airbus-a320neo-vs-boeing-737-max-what-plane-is-best/
Yeah I’m curious as well. Assuming they want fleet commonality (far from a given with Lufthansa…,) I could see them going to some of the leisure airlines (City, Discover, Eurowings) or to Austrian which already operates Boeing heavies and doesn’t seem to have a significant investment in new Airbus narrow bodies (just 5 NEOs.)
Austrian was my first thought as well, though the leisure/ low-cost airlines make sense as well. The article said 737-8, but it’s possible that they’re 737-8-200s, in which case they’re almost definitely for the leisure/ low-cost airlines.
Austrian doesn’t really want to re-introduce short haul Boeings.
They are going to retire their long haul Boeings soon and want to go full Airbus/Embraer with A350s replacing the 767/777s.
They are not gonna be operating 3 different AC fleets.
And thinking about it more, the scale of the firm + optional orders would make me think they’ll be sent to multiple airlines.
The only one who could absorb them all would be LH itself and that doesn’t make much sense since they were directed to simplify their fleet types.
Probably Austrian, they seem to be going more towards Boeing than the rest. Already had 737NGs a while ago, their A320s are getting older and they also have a Boeing-only widebody fleet with 787s adding to it soon.
I suspect LH could be using this to pressurise Airbus. LH, along with other airlines, have previously said they’d be interested in the stretch A220 (the so called -500 model) and intimated that it’s entry into production could secure Airbus an order to replace the entire group’s short-medium haul fleet. Perhaps this is LH’s way of saying to Airbus “put the A220-500 into production or you loose out on orders”.
Might be wrong but my understanding is this is Southwest's fault. They didn't want overhead panel changes or big system changes because it would cost a lot to retrain.
Every airline in the world that operates NGs *and* ordered MAXs got sold a massively more efficient (but significantly more expensive) airplane with no additional pilot training costs.
It’s a totally different commercial prospect if they’d done a real redesign of the flight deck (or a clean sheet replacement) and it needed to be operate as a distinct fleet from the NG. People give Boeing a lot of shit for slapping another layer of lipstick on that pig, but if you’re trying to sell airplanes to 737 operators and choice A is a new type that’s got future growth potential and saves you maybe 16-17% on fuel but is a whole new type with all the costs that entails (upfront and ongoing), while B is a 14-15% more efficient 737 you could make money on even if you only bought 1, I’m pretty sure I know which sells more airplanes quicker.
It would’ve needed MCAS to be certified even if it was an entirely new type. MCAS wasn’t glommed on to save training costs, it’s there to make the low speed high AOA stick forces behave the way they have to for certification.
The lack of training comes into it when they basically pretended MCAS didn’t exist as far as pilots are concerned.
As far as I understood the forces weren't out side of any absolute limits they were just to different from the other 737s which would have made retraining necessary.
There’s tons of places that explain it like that but directly from Boeing sources it’s only there to meet stick force vs speed curve requirements, specifically to maintain an average of at least 1 pound stick force per 6 knots.
Absolutely, I will still always try to avoid flying on the 737 Max. Both because it should have had to be certified as a new plane, if they missed something as catastrophic as MCAS who knows what else is wrong with that plane?
I mean it is very unlikely that there is anything else which will cause crashes, but I also don’t want to fly on it out of principle, Boeing got off very lightly for their gross negligence, I don’t want to support them by flying on airlines who buy that jet. I know I won’t make much of a difference, but I will make an incremental one, and if a lot of people do the same then it will affect the airlines who buy the max, which will in turn make airlines think twice about buying it, which will hurt Boeing.
Boeing's management is still shit. The tanker program, the 787 manufacturing issues, the Orion capsule...sure the backlog is nice, but until they fix their C-suite I'm not touching the stock again.
Both equally bad in terms of on time delivery.
Boeing Defense made a loss on all of its fixed price contracts.
Boeing Commercial is struggling to certify aircraft and fix quality issues.
> Boeing Defense made a loss on all of its fixed price contracts.
And now they aren't accepting those crappy contracts any more. Seems to me that they are learning from their mistakes.
> The company and the air force could not agree on some contract terms, including data rights, according to a report by Reuters.
> Boeing also reportedly refused to sign a fixed-price agreement requiring it to defray additional production costs when an agreed limit is reached.
> As early as October, the American aerospace firm indicated it would move away from fixed-price contracts after its defense unit lost $1.3 billion on fixed-price programs this year.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/12/04/boeing-us-air-force-doomsday/
"crappy contracts" more like crappy cost management combined with underbidding initially to get the contract then showing the real costs when cost plus contracts are given.
Target costing is done very poorly.
> Target costing is done very poorly.
These are complex military developmental aircraft that have never been built before. Estimating gets more difficult as the product gets more complex and more risky.
There are many causes for losses, but the bottom line is that if a business keeps losing money on high-risk fixed-price contracts, then it is wise to negotiate some risk sharing, negotiate a much higher price, or withdraw from the bidding.
It doesn’t completely absolve them of their struggles, but you can’t simply ignore the realities of COVID/post-COVID disruptions to the labor and materials market.
Or the effects of the invasion of Ukraine with Russia being a significant source of titanium exports and Boeing shuttering a major engineering hub in Moscow, to name a few.
Even the best run project would almost certainly go into the red.
At the moment it's only 40 commited with another possible 60 in the future. They also bought 40 new a320's and 40 new a220's with a possible extra 20 a220's In the future.
I'm not an avid aviation connoisseur, more a causal enjoyer - so someone correct me if I'm blatantly off. But wasn't the 737 max the one that was, due to technical or sensor error, uncontrollably pulling the nose up after take off to a point of stalling, killing hundreds in the subsequent crashes? Or am I confusing something here?
Two crashes by small international airlines where pilots were not appropriately trained.
The problem was the need for additional training and the process by which things got there. It did not affect the safety of large airlines.
Not at all a fair characterisation of what happened. It could’ve happened anywhere. The design was faulty with 500+ dead as as a result. Ethiopian is also not exactly a small airline.
That's really helpful. Maybe I should read up on that. But weren't they pulled from service and there was an investigation by Congress? Maybe I'm mixing things up here. Guess I'll comb through google and see what I find.
Probably because the A320 line is so much longer.
Honestly at this point narrow body airline sales are more like condo pre-sales. A type of options trading to either lock in a low price or sell at a profit.
With all of the potential volatility.
I really dont think they are going MAX with OS, LH or LX. Most likely theyre going to discovery to replace the ceos or something entirely new.
Their mainline operations are quire ULD heavy, and the MAX goes completely against that.
> What’s interesting that most people have forgotten is that Lufthansa was the original launch customer for the 737.
>
>
people on both sides of the contract who are not just long retired but firmly under ground.
While I agree it might well be used as an option, I don't think LH mainline is taking up the MAX. They have far too many new Airbus narrowbodies to introduce a sub-fleet at this point and they have good delivery slots for previous orders. This is most likely going to someone else in the group, my guess being Austrian.
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