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Why are the slats not flush with the wing near the fuselage on a 330?

Posted by Stolisan@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 77 comments

Why are the slats not flush with the wing near the fuselage on a 330?

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77 Comments

bowleshiste@reddit

One my CFIs gave me this invaluable piece of knowledge: if you ever have questions about why something on a plane is oddly shaped, the answer is always "complicated aerodynamic reasons"
View on Reddit #15015879

JennyKmu@reddit

I don’t remember the exact reason, but yes indeed it’s an aerodynamic one that I knew at some point. If I were to try and guess again from the shape I would say it generates a vortex which helps keeping the flow attached to the wing near the fuselage, though that’s just a guess.
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Dangerous-Salad-bowl@reddit

Yeah there’s not much of a wing root fairing on that thing, so guessing that a vortex running down there keeps flow alive.
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Gilmere@reddit

Yep, perhaps its vortex inducing, providing turbulent flow to keep the flow attached in higher AOA. Further, it might delay loss of lift at that point in the span, for some reason. Sometimes its done ahead of control surfaces to ensure the surface has effectiveness in higher AOA where the flow would detach and "stall" the wing. For example, an F-18 wing accomplishes this differently with a "twist" along its span to provide lower overall AOA at the wingtips to allow the ailerons a bit more attached flow in Hi AOA, so it remains controllable in that regime. I would imagine that the wing on the A330 is quite efficient, with laminar flow over most of it. Laminar flow departs quickly and more violently, in hi-AOA than turbulent flow. So its not particularly desirable on a passenger aircraft or ahead of a control surface. Maybe this keeps flow attached for the trailing edge flaps behind it... Conversely, no A330 should ever be getting into Hi-AOA for this to be a regular issue. It most likely is there for extreme cases that must be designed into the airframe for safety. But I leave that to the Airbus experts to be sure...
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pattern_altitude@reddit

That "twist" is called washout, and it's on a lot more planes than just the F/A-18. Even the Piper Cherokee has it.
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Dangerous-Salad-bowl@reddit

I learned that the dog tooth on the Il-62 leading edge allowed them to get away without any leading edge devices. Unlike the VC10 of the same period.
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SoothedSnakePlant@reddit

If you ever see something weirdly shaped that involves a sudden cliff like this, or a random spike or something, it's a vortex generator.
View on Reddit #15033710

RunninWild17@reddit

Aka fucking math nerd shit.
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Northstronomer55@reddit

I believe the reason for the step is because of boundary layer airflow from the fuselage. if the step wasn't there, then the boundary layer airflow from the fuselage
View on Reddit #15048019

SamMalone10@reddit

Alternative reason I’ve always used is “so the rain runs off.” Something not quite level? So the rain runs off. Built something weird on the house? So the rain runs off. Weird texture on an interior wall? So the rain runs off.
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Im2bored17@reddit

"we threw it in the wind tunnel and the air looked bad near this thingy. So we tried some normal fixes, but the air still looked bad. So we tried some weirder stuff. The air STILL looked bad. So we tried some stuff that was so stupid it obviously wouldn't work, and wouldntyaknowit, that worked." > but why? "Fuckifiknow. Want me to spend another 3 months figuring it out or are these 100 pages of documentation showing that it DOES work good enough for ya?"
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KickFacemouth@reddit

See: F-4 outer wing dihedral, F-15 stabilator notch, any number of Soviet aircraft wing fences...
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culingerai@reddit

Don't forget the waving of hands when saying "complicated aerodynamic reasons"...
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FZ_Milkshake@reddit

Dog Tooth, at high AoA it creates a strong vortex to act as virtual wing fence.
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paperodiabolico@reddit

S C I E N C E !
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Little709@reddit

"How do fuck do i fit this in here"
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SkippytheBanana@reddit

Same oddity as why CRJ-7/900s have a 5” rectangle hole in the lower leading edge about mid span. Something about aerodynamics doesn’t cause any issues and it was a useless inspection panel.
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fmaugurati@reddit

I used to fly the CRJ 900. That rectangular hole behind the slat on the lower leading edge is essentially where a removed panel is supposed to be, there is a CDL for it. Bombardier determined there was literally no performance penalty with it not installed, so it wasnt a problem. The airline I flew it for had 5 of them without the panels and the rest of them with it installed. It was just annoying when the ramp crew would come running up to tell us "there's a hole in the wing" thanks... We know 😂
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SkippytheBanana@reddit

I think the entire fleet at PSA doesn’t have the panel. Because I don’t ever remember seeing it installed on walkarounds.
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Mbusse454@reddit

Can people please stop with the “I think or I assume” if you don’t actually know shut the fuck up. It’s used a a toilet during maintenance, so when you shit off the wing so you don’t hit a “leading edge flap” duh
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Sindri69@reddit

I dont work alot on airbus, but it looks like the leading edge was left in the downward position after landing. See the picture on this wiki page that leading edge is in the landing position [flaps](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flap_(aeronautics)) My guess is the pilots or mechanics left them in this wierd position, it usually goes back when they pressurize hydraulics before a flight
View on Reddit #15077123

Koven_soars@reddit

There are a lot of comments here talking about vortex generation and dog tooth edges, and I'm not saying this is not the reason, but I’d like to add that there are many things at play. There are plenty of examples vortex generators being placed on commercial aircraft from 737 wings, 777 tail, and most large, hi bypass ratio nacelles have at least one on the inner part (nacelle chine). Sometimes vortex generators are used proactively and selected because they are perceived to be the best option, like on the 737 NG/787, even on the 737 max the wings have vortex generators, although not as many…then there are times when they are added to improve characteristics once the airplane is finally built and flight testing can actually know what airplane does, for instance on the 737 NG tail which has a pile of vortex generators which we’re removed on the MAX when the tail cone and thickness of the stabs change in gain improvement in cruise drag characteristics. I don’t believe this is vortex generator with in intended purpose of flow improvement in high AoA, because this would only be “working” with the slats retracted, usually a very low AoA configuration…but that doesn’t mean it isn’t applicable, see AF 445 crash… It’s also far away from any control surfaces which is where you usually want to reenergize flow at high AoA to ensure maneuverability. You have to remember that A330 has multiple variants, with now two different engine options. So as designs start having variants being developed, it becomes a challenge to make minor changes without things starting to blow up and becoming major changes….see the MAX crashes. Despite an airplane being called a 737 or A330, there might be very big, nuanced changes that really make them two different airplanes, again see 737 NG versus the 737 Max…hell even the -10 Max has a much more complex gear, which has to fold up on its self to handle that airplane has to be lifted higher to account for the longer fuselage but still fit in the same hole in the fuselage …or the 787-8 versus the 787-9 which have the same wings aerodynamically, but are different structurally to save weight. So my thought here is that this is a result of the slat profile change in a A330 variant due optimizing the leading edge slat for some reason…maybe they needed to change the larger shape to get the landing and takeoff performance they needed to make the airplane profitable in the middle eastern market, which is dominated by high and hot conditions that effect performance, since they were stretching fuselage and increasing the MTOW. It could be an option that airline bought to have better takeoff and landing performance to trade for cruise performance because the routes this airplane flies isn’t as long as other A330 routes. It could be result of a design change when they were having slat structural issues which mean they needed to change the shape. In general, aerodynamics usually wins the battle when it comes to integration of systems, however it’s not the only thing that comes into play. 787 wing aero team was really pushing for a smaller wing of the -8 but the systems teams pushed back in order to have the space to be integrate the systems. Good thing they did, because the airplane was heavier than designed, and needed the extra wing area to meet all performance requirements. It still made %20 decrease fuel burn as promised despite the less than optimal design that the aero team envisioned. Yes, aerodynamics is complex and hard to understand…but when it comes to design, building, and operating extremely expensive airplanes, aerodynamic explanations are never the sole reason. Everything is compromise, and this slat looks like a compromise from my experience.
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Delta_FT@reddit

Something something vortex something something surface layer something something reduce/increase drag
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AirCapybara@reddit

It probably generates some kind of vortex that goes over the wing, it can definitely get the bugs out of the way and it might help get rid of some flow separation
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Pooch76@reddit

Now if only car makers can start thinking like this to stop WOMPWOMPWOMP when only back window(s) are open.
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hammer166@reddit

Always called that helicoptering. On my wife's Forester, cracking the downwind front window just a touch kills it. Damn dogs! LOL
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Pooch76@reddit

lol
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Consistent_Relief780@reddit

I can say that when i had my G35 sunroof open it would be WUMP-WUMP free ( with all other windows closed) until I would reach up and push the deflector down. It's how I learned aerodynamics on cars too.
View on Reddit #15045032

Messyfingers@reddit

99% of weird wing features that aren't guns or pitot tubes or the like are for vortex generating purposes.
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gianni071@reddit

Usually vortices like this are created to avoid crossflow over the wing due to wing sweep. Back in the day they used literal fences for this, but they found out vortices also act as a physical barrier.
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AirCapybara@reddit

Love see the condensation form these vortices flowing over the wing when the conditions are right
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dzem_latrina@reddit

That's definitely the wing about to break off. You should start repeatedly screaming "THE WING IS GONNA RIP OFF! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!" as soon as you take off to let everyone know.
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The_Mighty_Chin@reddit

It is there to prevent the turbulent boundary layer from the fuselage flowing onto the leading edge of the main wing through the attachment line. Since laminar flow will transition into turbulent flow even with the slightest disturbance, the turbulent boundary layer from the fuselage will induce transition of the flow prematurely. Due to laminar flow having less skin friction, which makes up a substantial part of drag during cruise. Laminar flow is preferable, assuming the flow does not separate. Usually, the flow will transition naturally to turbulent somewhere after the favorable pressure gradient has ended.
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FashionGuyMike@reddit

It’s called a cuff
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crubier@reddit

Equivalent of a leading edge fence, to keep turbulent air from the fuselage boundary layer to creep along the leading edge and disturb the flow over the whole wing
View on Reddit #15037231

just1workaccount@reddit

I saw the photo and caption and then chuckled at the thought of some one on preflight snapping this photo to ask reddit.
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grob33@reddit

Chem trail generator
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Fionarei@reddit

F-16’s is also 2 degrees up.
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Boating_Enthusiast@reddit

They ran into a bee mid-flight and got stung on the wing.
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Hookiebookie_@reddit

It's a wing fence to avoid wing - body aerodynamic interactions and reduce drag.
View on Reddit #15034137

Alternate_Source@reddit

A330 AMM says “The slant rib is made from two ribs which are attached to each other. It is installed at the point where the inboard edge of Slat 1 comes against the leading edge. It also changes the shape of the leading edge at this position. This keeps the aerodynamic contour of the wing when Slat 1 is in the retracted position”
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TheChaser8@reddit

Apparently the wing didn’t quite perform as expected so they made a small adjustment to the aerofoil shape. So basically the new shape doesn’t quite match to the fuselage as nicely. That’s what I was told anyway.
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wearsAtrenchcoat@reddit

Used to fly BaE Jetstream 4100's back in the day. They had a similar but even more pronounced "step" like that on the leading edges. The explanation we were given in ground school was: "During design they decided they needed more wing area so they added a bit by moving the leading edge of part of the wing forward. During testing it all worked really well so they left it as it was". Aerodynamics are ALWAYS "very complicated" and if something works well in practice you're best not changing it
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lyricalcrocodilian@reddit

Dogtooth like a super hornet
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Fordvw@reddit

It is a leading edge slat. When deployed, it creates more lift during takeoff. It is retracted after takeoff.
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jmreekes@reddit

It’s because there isn’t any hydraulic power on the airplane. Once the hydraulic system is powered, the slat will retract and sit flush. You can it sit flush in the some of the pictures in [this](https://www.airlinereporter.com/2019/08/whats-so-special-about-the-airbus-a330-900neo-touring-one-of-deltas-to-find-out/) article
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agha0013@reddit

it gets brought up a bit from time to time but Airbus itself won't confirm their secrets. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760905
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erhue@reddit

it's a dogtooth leading edge for dogfighting
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SwimmingCharacter201@reddit

I know it's probably for aerodynamic reasons by people much smarter than me. But do find it funny thinking it's just Dave's the aeronautical engineers fault because he measured it wrong, but it's Friday night and he said fuck it and shipped it
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jeroen-79@reddit

Just a rounding error.
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Appeltaartlekker@reddit

Tadumm psssh... Upvote!
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on3day@reddit

They probably designed it a little quickly and missed it.
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shredded_accountant@reddit

Increase max AoA?
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bpeden99@reddit

Money!!!
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SupermouseDeadmouse@reddit

Perhaps it acts as a wing fence?
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nico282@reddit

[Wikipedia link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_fence) for others like me that don’t know what those are.
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gianni071@reddit

Most likely, the edge creates a vortex fencing the wing.
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Stolisan@reddit (OP)

I noticed the slat wasn't flush on the A330 and A340. They are fully retracted and are flush at the pylon. Is there a specific purpose for this, like a built in wing fence?
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Bradyj23@reddit

I don’t have your answer. But the -900 doesn’t have this and it does sit flush.
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Stolisan@reddit (OP)

A330-900? A340-900?
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Bradyj23@reddit

330-900. The 340 wasn’t ever Neo’ed. I believe the 330-800 has the same wing as the 900 so I assume it sits flush as well..
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Vollkorntoastbrot@reddit

You could say the 500 and 600 where the equivalent to a neo at the time
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Hour_Dimension8524@reddit

The A330 and A340 ceo's have a common wing (the same) for the A330neo series it has a bespoke wing.
View on Reddit #15018719

NathanArizona@reddit

Same on 320 variants
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chicknsnotavegetabl@reddit

I 'heard' (speculated during endorsement) they faired it and the fuel burn went up so they left it. But modeling is much better these days I suspect that was in error given the NEOs are faired.
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Sonoda_Kotori@reddit

Could be designed to be either a cuff or a dogtooth. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-edge\_extension](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-edge_extension)
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doctor_of_drugs@reddit

Made by Tesla, for the upcoming cyber ”truck”
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hdd113@reddit

I heard F-4 Phantoms had those wierd wings as well fo4 aerodynamic reasons.
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Pieter0102@reddit

It’s probably a [dogtooth](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading-edge_extension#) type extension but idk
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FoxCharly@reddit

Mirage F1 and alphabet have these too, don’t know why
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aviation-da-best@reddit

For the Mirage F1, it gives better high AoA performance. It was an *incredible* aircraft for its time, IMO as legendary as the Fishbed.
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Hour_Dimension8524@reddit

I believe the reason for the step is because of boundary layer airflow from the fuselage. if the step wasn't there, then the boundary layer airflow from the fuselage could be swept along the wing leading edge disturbing the airflow over the wing. the step acts as a barrier.
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crotchpudding@reddit

it's to keep the bugs off the landing light. airbus worked for years perfecting it.
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KoldKartoffelsalat@reddit

Couldn't they just have welded a steel plate in front of it, are they stupid? /jk
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crotchpudding@reddit

brilliant!
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BrewCityChaser@reddit

I think shape of the retracted position might double as a cuff or dog tooth to enhance airflow characteristics over the wing for improvements in handling / stall behavior.
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AirCapybara@reddit

Probably a vortex generator to reduce flow separation over the wing
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