Germany or France for a career in Finance
Posted by Positive_Ad8933@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 30 comments
Hi, I am a Finance grad currently working.I am an Indian. I am planning to get 2yrs work ex and apply to unis in Europe. I want to permanently move to Germany or France. I am all in to learning the language and adopting the culture and integrating myself. Which country is a smarter choice as I want to start learning the language.
Thank you In advance!!
Substantial_Wave4496@reddit
As an Indian having studied my masters in Finance in Frankfurt, I can tell you, dont come here. I struggled to get a job in finance here, since the preference is towards Germans who speak their native language "fluently". I then went to London after applying for 1000+ roles. However, when I wanted to change jobs, it really wasnt easy, with an Indian passport, since my visa is tied to my job. I ended up crawling back to Frankfurt and having to start from ground 0 again.
I miss the professionality of people in London, the networking opportunities, the abundance of funds and banks and interconnected opportunities.
I once thought I'd also learn German and integrate fully - its not that easy. Its been 7 years and I am still learning the bloody language (I have learnt B2 Japanese previously, so I am aware of my language learning capabilities). German is just not an easy language for someone with one of the Indian languages as a base. Japanese is far easier, since we have similar grammar and sentence structures.
But I digress.
One reason I am here is because of my husband, who is European himself. I still want out from here, since I am ambitious and driven, and the German financial environment is not capable of making use of ambitious people that are not German.
So in short, choose London to do your masters - it will be way more $$$$$, but atleast you will have an eco-system where you can actually grow.
Alternatively, Netherlands might be an option too. The Dutch are the only ones in continental Europe that can speak English fluently, and are not intimidated to work in English.
Also, don't get me wrong - Germany and Germans are nice people. But if you are serious about your career, do yourself a favour and study outside of continental Europe, UNLESS you already speak one of these 80-90 million people language fluently ;)
This-Historian6016@reddit
if you were a bachelor in finance at frankfurt would it be better before your masters.
Corporate_Bankster@reddit
None, go to London.
If you really have to pick between France and Germany, then France it is as Paris is a very distant second to London.
LyleLanleysMonorail@reddit
I thought London was no longer finance capital of Europe due to Brexit?
bar_tosz@reddit
People actually think the Brexit broke Britain and made it a post-apocalyptic wasteland huh?
Lacplesis81@reddit
If Guy Verhofstadt and his clones = people, then yes. Licensed dentists might disagree.
Corporate_Bankster@reddit
The only way for London to lose its European financial capital crown is to be nuked.
The Brexit debacle doesn’t change anything to the depth of capital markets in the UK, its world class courts, common law, the international talent pool, the timezone, etc.
London is actually the world’s largest financial hub, ahead of NYC, for some major asset classes.
Fun_Abies_7436@reddit
pretty much. Also, I think the UK will prevail anyway and overcome its problems. It's got too much going for it with everything you cited: language, location, law, etc. When you go to continental europe, you see the stark difference between their way of thinking and the british
Thor-Marvel@reddit
I second this. If you want to go into finance in Europe, the breath and depth of the bench in London is unrivaled in Europe. Continental European portfolio managers come to London to invest in order to access (often American) capital to invest in European assets. The advisers (bankers, lawyers, consultants etc) are a different league.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
For someone working in the finance / banking / trading milieu, are they usually doing well enough for themselves that the problems of the UK since Brexit (such as drop in quality of life, public services etc) don't affect them? In other words, are these folks relatively untouched by the mess that the UK is currently portrayed to be?
Thor-Marvel@reddit
Everyone is affected by inflation.
But to elaborate on your question, the well off in London are pretty much untouched. They are the ones that fund the welfare state but don’t rely on it at all. They make a lot so are able to save and invest meaningful sums themselves, and they won’t be relying on the paltry state pension; they send children to private schools; and they use private doctors and hospitals through their generous private health insurance; they take taxis or Uber execs everywhere; on the weekends they drive their Range Roger or Porsche instead of taking the train. All made possible only because London has an outsize financial industry that is offering a globally competitive (but that I mean American) pay package.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
Fair enough. I wasn't aware that private healthcare could really elevate one almost completely out of the mess that is the NHS.
How much are mandatory state pension contributions as a percentage of income? Does the UK offer decent private pension opportunities (decent in terms of tax-advantaged etc)? I live in Germany - where every wage slave is forced to contribute 9-10% of their income to the state pension Ponzi scheme and considering the demographics here, we won't be getting shit out of it in 20-30 years. And there are no private pension investment opportunities for whatever retarded reason.
Thor-Marvel@reddit
It’s rare that you can get entirely out of the NHS system, but it is possible for the (very few) lucky ones.
The UK does not have a French/German style defined benefit [60/75/80]% of your average income over X years subject to a cap of Y public pension scheme.
The UK has a state pension that is only around £10k per year that is available upon pension age to anyone who has worked for at least 10 years (more or less).
But the UK does require every employer to contribute at least 3%, and every employee to contribute at least 5%, to the employee’s personal private pension account. This money comes out of your pre-tax income (so before tax). For the average person the cap of tax-free contribution is £60k/year but for high income earners it’s only £10k/year.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
Ah so everyone gets 10k, no matter how much they contributed over their working lifetime, i.e. as long as they were working some job. Interesting.
What threshold defines a high income earner? It seems like it is designed so the average person can't contribute to the max of 60k / year of pre-tax income even if he wanted to and the high earner gets too little benefit out of being able to only go up to 10k. I wonder why it's not a uniform amount for all - are there other avenues for high income earners to get a good retirement plan?
Sorry for all the questions, but I'm honestly considering getting the fuck out of Germany in a few years, and the UK was on my list. I think Germany's long term future is a lot darker than the UK's.
Thor-Marvel@reddit
It’s a maximum of 10k, reduced if your contribution is less.
High income = £260k when you start losing your pension tax free allowance.
No, being a high earner sucks in the UK (sucks less than in Germany or France but sucks a lot more than in the US, Middle East or Asia).
I think the average UK person will tell you the UK’s future is just as bleak. But I do agree with you on Germany. What if Volkswagen becomes the next Nokia? It isn’t impossible.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
Ah ok, 260K is a genuinely high income. In Germany high income starts from 60K EUR (!) both from a taxation point of view (every euro you earn beyond this is taxed at 42%) and in the political narrative (always first in the line of fire for tax increases and for supposedly not paying their "fair" share).
I would never be able to make anywhere near 260K in the UK (or in the US for that matter). If I could, I would've gone to the US, no-brainer - forget the UK and Germany then lol. At the same time I'm well above minimum wage / living paycheck-to-paycheck. So as I get older (and sicker), the cap on maximum healthcare payments and the general safety net in the UK / Europe would likely become more important to me than what the US can offer. Which is why I've been comparing the UK and Germany - because for all its problems, the UK's demographic situation is not doomed in the way Germany's is. Western, English-speaking nations like the UK will always have a way of attracting bright, hard-working immigrants (if the political will is there to accept them without imposing too many hurdles) compared to a place like Germany with a difficult language, insane bureaucracy, unfriendly people and high taxes - the only young people Germany succeeds in attracting in significant numbers are poorly-skilled asylum seekers. This will lead to deindustrialization and a rapidly diminishing economically productive population. Somehow I don't see the UK going through something like this in the long run, but I'd love to hear if you disagree.
Thor-Marvel@reddit
In UK the highest tax band is between 100k - 125k where you are effectively taxed at 60% (this is because you lose your tax free allowance starting at 100k + 40% nominal rate). Above 125k you are taxed at 45%.
The thing with the NHS is that it is a very inaccessible system unless there is a visible emergency. Like if you got hit by a car and is bleeding profusely, or if there is an actual tumor inside your body. In those cases you jump to the front of the queue and they treat you immediately for “free.” But the problem is anything short of that, you have to go through a Byzantine maze of phone calls, referrals, more phone calls, texts and emails, often not seeing an actual doctor for a very long time. And the whole system is set up to push patients away from it. You know it is a recurring cultural meme in the UK that you have to call your GP at 8am in the morning like trying to get Taylor Swift tickets because if you are two minutes late then all the slots will be filled up for that day. And even if you get through you will have to listen to minutes of recorded voice telling you, “did you know if you have mild symptoms, your local pharmacy can offer you over the counter medication, do you still wish to continue?” So if you are simply feeling “something is going wrong” they will often miss your chance unless you go private. Also, social care is not covered by the NHS. For example if you’re retired and are not mobile and require someone to take care of you etc. And you dont have a child that does it for free, people often have to mortgage their houses to pay for care. The cap on that is 86,000.
I do agree with you that the demographic crisis isn’t as bad in the UK. And people are generally more open minded than those in Germany. But the trend is still the same.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
I think I heard of that 60% sinkhole before. I guess then beyond 100k it makes sense to start shoving whatever income you have into the pension allowance.
I assume private patients are exempt from long wait times (for medical issues short of an emergency) and can easily get a doctor or GP without jumping through all kinds of hoops? Also, if I have private insurance through a well-paying job, do I get social care through that when I retire? I guess not :|
In Germany, we have "Pflege" (old age care) insurance, which is another easy 100 bucks or so per month tagged on to the Ponzi contributions, but again, considering the growing army of old people here, I doubt there will be enough (or any) care workers in 20-30 years. It's already an exploding situation
Thor-Marvel@reddit
Your first point, yes a lot of people do that. Second point, yes, with private you can pretty much get seen right away/in a few days time. I had a nasty mole on my thigh checked out in a week’s time, biopsy and scans and stuff and had it removed in a month or two. The NHS probably wouldn’t even bother removing it because it wasn’t cancerous.
No, people with private insurance lose it when they leave their job. Cash is king. Just save up enough to fund your own care when you’re old. The problem is that in the UK the private medical insurance infrastructure isn’t nearly as developed as it is in the US, but then the public healthcare system is getting worse and worse by the day. That’s why I don’t plan on being in the UK in the long run.
Also, the NHS has a cult like quasi religious status in the UK, it’s weird. Everybody I know trashes it one way or another in private, but everybody praises it in public. And politicians definitely aren’t allowed to criticize it. Same can be seen on Reddit (because it’s a public forum). It has occupied such a weird space in the national psyche that any attempt or even talk of an attempt to reform it is immediately shot down as a conservative/American/capitalist attempt to “privatize healthcare.” In the average UK voter’s mind there are only two options: 1. the NHS or 2. a nebulous term called the “US style healthcare system” but most here have absolutely no clue how the American healthcare system works with employer funded health insurance, Obamacare, Medicare or Medicaid. Many here happily believe that every mother in the US pays $30k for a childbirth. There is no mention of any European insurance system. Many people here will happily shoot you down by shouting “Don’t you believe that healthcare is a human right?” at any attempt to introduce any minimal charge. They tried to propose a fine of £10 if you schedule a GP appointment and miss it. That was shelved after 3 days. But then NHS junior doctors are probably paid the lowest among all developed countries, and because of this monopoly there is only one practical route of becoming a doctor, and that is through the NHS. So anyone who has any common sense these days won’t choose to become a doctor. So the labour shortage continues.
Honestly, I would even compare the NHS in the UK to guns in America. Everybody knows there is a problem, everybody knows something should change somehow, but nobody knows when to do what how, so we are stuck in a vicious circle.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
Thanks for the insights into the NHS, and that's a good analogy with gun control in the US haha.
Where do you plan on moving to after the UK, if you don't mind me asking? The only other country I have in mind other than the UK is Switzerland. My home country (3rd world) is a bit of a dump, so that's out of the question.
Thor-Marvel@reddit
Not sure. Maybe the US. For you the UK shouldn’t be a problem. Your opportunity cost is low. I’d say UK is better than Switzerland if your most important goal is to get the fuck out.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
Yeah let's see. Thanks to Brexit, I'll need to go through the painful sponsorship process whereas Switzerland means I can move there as soon as I get a job offer, after I hopefully get German citizenship haha
Thor-Marvel@reddit
Fair enough. Good luck. You sound young enough. Time is in your side.
bar_tosz@reddit
its 10k if you have 35 years contribution. If you only worked 10years you will have 10/35 x 10k.
Corporate_Bankster@reddit
We are doing fine, don’t you worry about us mate. The UK shit show is overblown. I have lived in a few countries and it is not so bad here in London.
PS: I am not British.
Low-Experience5257@reddit
Can you elaborate on this? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious to see what you mean.
Corporate_Bankster@reddit
It is a boring place compared to Paris.
On the one hand, you have a top tier city of global relevance to culture, lifestyle, quality of life, opportunities, etc., and on the other, you have a somewhat large and quite affluent city with nothing to write home about.
I guess the closest US equivalent to this would be comparing NYC to Houston or something.
diabeartes@reddit
Have you even visited both in person to get a feel for what you like and where you might fit in or feel comfortable? Nobody knows your taste of personality or interests except you.
FERRARIZZI1@reddit
Are you really asking? One side a depressing country on the other another depressing country with good wine, food and petite mademoiselle 😍
Kingston31470@reddit
Try to travel to both first to see what you would like more. If you go to France chances are you will land in Paris for work as the country is rather centralized. In Germany there may be different cities where you could work.
In terms of culture, think if there is one of these countries that would interest you more.
I am French and I think Paris is quite international and could be interesting, but you may like it better in Germany. Other options like London would probably be easier to get into if you are Indian and only speak English for now (plus still good jobs in finance).