It's all fine and dandy to say that direct action *might* do more harm than good but I can tell you right now that what we're doing at the moment is *definitely* going to cause extinction.
I just see people who are new to thinking anything is wrong with the world not understanding why other movements get stomped to the ground and time is not what we have.
I am also confident though that people commenting were not in danger of being arrested as is.
"all the obvious targets –pipelines, refineries, coalmines, planes, SUVs. . even if greenhouse gases from all other sectors were eliminated today, by 2100 current models of food production alone would bust the entire carbon budget two or three times over, if we want to avoid more than 1.5C of global heating.."
this could be me just nitpicking because i think this is a great discussion topic and this may have been completely unintentional on the part of the author but there seems to be some interesting subtext in this little quote from the article. i wasnt gonna mention it at first but by the time i finished reading the piece it made me have a few thoughts i wanna try to articulate.
firstly i find it curious how the author includes SUV drivers in the same category of obvious fossil fuel emitters as literal pipelines and coal mines but no where in the entire article is there any mention of fossil fuel emissions of the U.S war machine.
secondly, the author seems to take another subtle jab at the average consumer by highlighting how even the fossil fuels used just to maintain current means of mass food production would keep us from staying within 1.5c. this fails to take into account not only alternate methods of food production but more importantly, that there is an absolute 0% chance of staying under 1.5c.
i think for a more nuanced take on things, its important to point out these nitpicky details but dont get me wrong, i agree with the basic suggestion of the title. even if carried out with the intention of fighting for the planet, certain direct actions could be detrimental to all life on earth. even if people claiming to be in the e.l.f are the ones trying to take out power stations, a prolonged power grid down scenario could potentially reduce aerosol emissions enough to rapidly warm the earth. blowing up an existing pipeline could cause an environmental disaster, spilling toxic sludge in places humans probably dont want it. the u.s attack on the nordstream pipeline was the single greatest emission of methane in human history and has brought the world one step closer to the brink of catastrophic global conflict.
this only means that blowing up *existing* infrastructure requires more nuance. sabotaging inactive pipelines that are perhaps currently under construction would then hypothetically in minecraft be a different story. and while we're on the subject of nuance that ignores the ecological impact of the global-military-intelligence-surveillance-industrial-apparatus, why is the conversation always focused on sabotaging pipelines? what about sabotaging deforesters or sabotaging weapons manufacturing facilities? it would be harder for protestors to get tear gassed if the tear gas factory mysteriously burned down
> firstly i find it curious how the author includes SUV drivers in the same category of obvious fossil fuel emitters as literal pipelines and coal mines but no where in the entire article is there any mention of fossil fuel emissions of the U.S war machine.
SUVs [are terrible](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo) AND they are symbols of the individualist prepper working with the system to protect themselves and screw everyone else. They represent a material problem, a symbolic problem, a political problem, and a cultural problem.
Man there are way bigger fish to fry than people driving cars that are slightly bigger than yours. Someone driving a Chevy Tahoe to work shouldn't even be considered in the same ballpark as an oil CEO or something.
didnt say they were. in fact i was implying the contrary. they are manufacturing for profit. they wouldnt be able to profit off oil and gas if they didnt have an effective consumer base to profit off of. a well educated, well informed population does not make for a good consumer base. hence the manipulation of culture and politics to create good consumers with the help of symbology.
The purpose of the manipulation (advertising, PR) is to induce demand. Demand is still the driver, it's just telecontrolled by with brain hacking. What are individuals doing about this? Where's the fight for defense against ~~the dark arts~~ advertising? Where's the training in resisting this? Where's the resistance?
If you're going to blame capitalism for everything, then the only thing left is to blame yourself for not revolting.
i'm not simply blaming capitalism, youre just ignoring half of my point. who exactly is creating the demand? what exactly are we fighting? they dont call it the petrodollar for nothin. SUV manufacturers wouldnt be able to manufacture internal combustion engines if certain companies werent destroying the earth in pursuit of oil and gas with the explicit assistance of certain militaries. how are we suppsoed to resist darpa and the pentagon?
i know how i've resisted. i know some of the consequences i've suffered as a result. i dont blame people for not resisting. its scary and literally takes peoples lives. the master doesnt train you in how to deconstruct his estate. i blame the people profitting off the suffering they are creating.
I'm trying to point you to the issue of who's responsible for change, for revolution.
If you think that the same capitalists are, then nothing will change.
the only thing in the universe that doesnt change is the fact that everything in the univere changes. nowhere did i say o expect the oil and gas corpos to revolt against thenselves. but also, revolution is just a cyce like the earth revolving around the sun. revolution in the sense youre talking about is also an 18th century concept that may not really be applicable to 21st century globalism
>revolution is just a cycle like the earth revolving around the sun
You remind-me of climate change denialists. Just like global warming now, revolution is man-made.
And, yes, we need it globally.
Sic drivers definitely seems like an easy way to alienate. Maybe the manufacturers.
Thank you for highlighting different parts of the article it’s definitely worth a read in full.
While this is true, it isn't a strategy. You would have an easier time convincing people to fly in dirigibles instead of airplanes than to get everyone to give up meat.
Humans have been eating meat as long as there have been humans, more than 200,000 years ago. Mass air transit started in 1955.
Feels like we are in a damn catch 22.
What we have been doing is not enough or fast enough for change, but trying anything much more radical than what has been done will result in doubling down on the current systems that are the problem or fuel the problem.
What should we be doing to make an impact?
(Not fix obviously because that is pretty much impossible)
There's no catch 22 at all here.
Most changes throughout history required violence, but the current generations were brainwashed with Pixar Morality(tm) to believe that "violence is never the answer"..
The truth is that violence has almost always been the answer, and the rich just don't want you to know it.
Disagree. You're moving to violence when the alternative has not even been properly tried yet. Mass civil disobedience. And I mean MASS. Literally what Just Stop Oil is doing in the UK but with more people, everywhere.
There's a tipping point where enough people join their local group, and then the groups join up for a combined extended protest that shuts down a city. Then the powerful will negotiate. This tactic has worked in the past and will work again.
To get the results you want from violence, you'd need violence on a mass scale anyway, which is even less likely to happen.
I'm going to guess you've never been in a protest action in the U.S. that
interfered with the normal functioning of state controlled space. Also,
have never read U.S. labor history.
>You're moving to violence when the alternative has not even been properly tried yet. Mass civil disobedience. And I mean MASS. Literally what Just Stop Oil is doing in the UK but with more people, everywhere.
Every mass civil disobedience demonstration devolves into violence, either because the oppressor starts it or the oppressed resorts to it.
That commenter has never been in a protest action in the U.S. that interfered with the normal functioning of state controlled space. Also, has never read U.S. labor history.
You're still living in Pixar land buddy.
Look at the civil disobedience that was tried around the world. Besides France, most places just fucking hate the protesters for interrupting their day. Most people are fucking idiots who *will never* participate in civil disobedience.
That eliminates the possibility of "mass" civil disobedience.
When the wealthy control all the companies which provide the population with their information, they can very easily control *most* people.
​
Second, you don't need mass violence, you just need effective targeted violence.
The people who run this world are controlled by only two things: greed and fear. Right now they're not afraid. Their willingness to compromise would change if they were.
You are leaving out a critical piece. After the violence and overthrow of what was before: the new regime likes that new found power, and abuses it. Careful what you wish for
Agree completely. Movements *start* with awareness and non-violent action, which is great for gaining allies, but that can only do so much. If we view any form of oppression like school yard bullies, it makes more sense. Trying to change the bully's mind or reason with them is futile, and likely to get your lunch money stolen and punched in the face even more... Until you throw sand in their eyes and punch back. Some people only speak and understand aggression, and simply won't listen until you speak their language.
It's technically not free...I burn gas to get it sometimes. What is free is the 15 yards of pine mulch that just showed up from chipdrop. It's also free to steal all of your neighbors hard work when they remove nutrients from their soils via leaf bags in the fall. One person's trash is another persons grocery store, as collapse continues, all we can do is grow.
It's come to the point that I very much hope that it would be a feudal constable I'm talking to and not an impersonal megacorp agent or computer interface.
What direction avoids that, or minimizes the most suffering of current and future populations? I totally agree and would love the most optimal suggestion, but anything we pick lots of people hurt. Even doing nothing.
Mass civil disobedience to force govt hand. Joining the groups that already exist (just stop oil, ext rebellion) and helping organise disruptive activities.
It could work, it might not work but it's worked in the past so worth a shot, just needs the numbers.
If it's the only way then it's whats going to have to happen. People aren't going to listen to pleas to change the system otherwise. Unfortunately, consequences are going to have to ensue first.
Mass amounts of innocent people are going to die anyway due to climate change. So pick your poison. Do you want near human extinction and the destruction of countless wildlife who have **done nothing wrong** to occur because you let this ecocidal system continue? Or are you going to try to stop it and cause limited damage in the process.
Your choice.
I have listened to two thirds of this series of podcasts and so far it has been worth a listen: https://soundcloud.com/roger-hallam-2023
A lot of it goes into the nuts and bolts of how to engage/mobilise people (make meetings sociable, and immediate in terms of proximity), but there is a lot of other stuff too.
I am just at the bit where he discusses the why of non-violent action. So far (my interpretation of) the two reasons he gives is:
1. The evidence shows that five years after a violent revolution 19 out of 20 have ended up with some mix of societal collapse, civil war, or authoritarianism.
2. The whole idea is to change the relationships upon which society is based into something better. Violence begets violence and will by definition not achieve this aim/be self-defeating.
He is the person who has studied this stuff so at the moment I take his word on this stuff, but he seems convincing. To be honest I think an organised, intelligent, committed and reasonable opponent capable of mobilising masses beyond what the state can cope with, is far more concerning for the fossil fuel powers that be than a mob, or someone shooting up an electricity substation.
Yes, we chose ignoring the problem and now we're still choosing ignoring the problem. And by we, I mean WE , including in this sub.
We decry previous generations leaving us with this mess but how should they have solved it? Their governments were just as fucked as ours and society arguably had fewer liberties than were do now, and was more conservative. They would have had to protest - the very thing we're too fatalistic and lazy to do now.
Everyone is pointing the finger everywhere but themselves. We all know a mass movement is necessary to end this, so why is no one joining groups? That's the answer, the only answer. Join a group, build the movement.
If not, expect the worst, but you're not innocent of responsibility if you refuse to step up.
>vote for people who’ll use the last good years to shore up not tear down public goods
you will mostly be voting for people that were hand selected by the elites . they don't give a fuck about you. you don't fund their careers
Voting for latestage systems that are falling inward and consuming themselves and attacking the other institutions around them in an inexorable latestage jengafall project, is.... you know... whatever floats your boat. Our systems are beyond voluntary internal reform. The horse has bolted, the entropic complexity train has... you get the point. Our system has flowered, the roots are dead. If we weren't in an ecological nightmare the coming systems change pain and suffering might give way to some temporary relief, as is often the case. Unfortunately, that is not our fate. We cancelled an ice age though, that's quite something.
I sure as hell didn't choose to do nothing. I couldn't even do anything until it was well and truely too late to fix, if I was even born before that point.
I have been voting for people to keep the city and country I live in a place that cares for people, but others vote against their own peraonal interests to destroy that and ensure people who are to sick to look after themselves are left in the street to die.
I can't afford to move somewhere that I can grow food because the cost of living out strips pay raises for the majority of people on this planet.
Beware the inexorable cruel duty to either become or create that which you seek to destroy.
Nonparticipation is better, but we can't really do that anymore. There's also the issue of the corporate state, our neoclassical corporate growth economic system which resides as a filter through which all our efforts and offerings are squeezed and shaped. What are we doing? Blowing up corporate property to be replaced by other corporate property? Yes it'll produce less carbon (maybe) depending on what vacuum is created and filled, but corporate green burrr energy that focuses on the growth and indefinite preservation of our vainglorious death project is not going to save us. Sure our latestage Diocletian tetrachy is something we have to implement on some level but our malaise is deep, putrid and wide. Our way of life is rotten to its core.
>As soon as they perceive a violent threat to the capital they defend, they will respond with greater violence of their own
I suppose lefties really do live an alternate reality.
Is he referring to the same 'capital' that has diversity quotas and sponsor gay pride events?
He really seems to think this is the 1930s. Are all marxists like this? Have they not moved on?
The rich are notoriously class conscious so if you think there’s no longer a proletariat which means people who earn wages to live, sorry buddy you might be a prole.
Just because capital is encouraging their workers not to offend the new diverse hires to avoid lawsuits doesn’t mean the power dynamics have completely changed.
If anything the time for bargaining is quickly closing with automation and machine learning.
I've read the piece. Monibot is a cringey progressive who won't risk shit. Sometimes people have to take big risks to change the material conditions of forces that threaten them. What this article lacks (and ignores one of Malm's points) is an understanding that some combination of tactics is likely the most successful. Direct action, infrastructure incapacitation, service interruption can certainly disrupt systems to give openings for other movements, actors, communities to enact other changes by other means. There's not going to be a tidy answer, but people should definitely not be discouraged from acting because they might end up in a cell. Or worse. If you've been on the streets in contemporary U.S. protests, you know the risks are extraordinarily high. And the victories may be seem to Pyrrhic in a liberal-statist perspective. But the changes are there to be made, and transformations in tactics and philosophies yet to appear, but surely will come.
...and if you miss, then you're at fault for having tried something. I don't know, it's a very cautious and stifling approach when he well knows that all movements are heterogeneous and complicated and the best ones experiment with tactics and possibilities.
I guess in my mind we’ve lost what most so they’re fighting to preserve, and we need to decide what it is we’re fighting for and what would likely be left. I think it’s just a warning against naïveté.
I guess it's well established that any party with interest can skew the movement towards the wrong path of cause and demand that completely sabotage the real solution that is required to sustain our future. we're a distributed sense making machine that tries to survive in each of our local habitat.
Typically, non-violent approaches to enacting change include organizing grassroots movements, endorsing like-minded candidates, and boycotting, etc. However, these methods often prove ineffective due to the prevalence of corporate-funded counter-initiatives. Developing alternative economic models, promoting independent media, and focusing on education have also struggled to yield significant results. As American citizens, our capacity to effect meaningful change appears limited, making the establishment of international networks crucial. By leveraging the collective strength and influence of other nations, we can pressure Washington and U.S. corporations to embrace change.
I don't, and here is why.
This discourse is more damaging than violence. It's spreading rapidly. The people in charge want nothing more than to shut us up, and need an excuse to do it. Violence is that excuse. Don't give it to them.
Here is how a confrontation between differently matched opponents plays out:
(1) A minority loses against a majority.
(2) Battles occur between two equally matched groups.
(3) Majorities force their will on the rest.
We want to be the third group, while currently we are the first.
We need a calculated thought out approach. We need a plan first, and actions second. Does anyone even know what sustainability looks like?
Given the actual, literal ecocide that Capital is causing, being a saboteur is fighting for Life. Since nearly all of our politicians have chosen to kill us all in the name of private profits, they'll crucify you for fighting back and reward the very people who are committing the greatest crime humanity can.
But like seriously, if you're gonna go do things like that: don't tell anyone, don't involve others, and don't search for stupid shit like "how to sabotage a pipeline." That's the kind of stupid we saw with J6, and look how well it's going for the MAGA imbeciles *who did just that.*
apparently just shooting holes in pipelines with high caliber solid steel head ammo works wonders .
6
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Hi, MakeTotalDestr0i. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: No glorifying violence.
Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban.
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I didn't advocate encourage incite glorify or call for violence. I only stated that it is possible to poke holes in pipelines. when people do it enough it shuts them down..
I learned about it in the corporate public documents published by pipeline company.
Hi, MakeTotalDestr0i. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/131yr8t/-/ji459nv/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
> Rule 1: No glorifying violence.
> Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban.
Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information.
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Hi, MakeTotalDestr0i. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/131yr8t/-/ji37cp4/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
> Rule 1: No glorifying violence.
> Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban.
> ----
Generic statements are OK; discussing specific methods is **not**.
Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information.
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And those jokers are getting off relatively easy _because of course they are_.
Don’t expect similar mercy for the side fighting against the oligarchy. 10+ years in prison, medium to high security classification.
This is what I expect from him, so it's not an issue.
There's no meaningful precedent for the challenge. None. People talking about strategies aren't experts, they're guessing.
>But the revolt against environmental collapse is a revolt against the entire system. To prevent the destruction of the habitable planet, every aspect of our economic lives has to change.
This is the relevant point. It's a nice way of saying that the problem is the system and also the people addicted to it. The required changes must happen at every level.
>The world has not stood still while we ponder these questions. Governments and corporations are now equipped with greatly increased surveillance and detection powers. If sabotage escalates beyond the mild actions Malm has taken (letting down the tyres of SUVs with mung beans, helping to breach two fences), not many people will get away with it. Some will face decades in prison. Just last week, two climate campaigners in the UK were jailed for between two and three years merely for occupying a bridge. Are we comfortable with goading other people – mostly young people – to step over the brink?
I don't look to the UK for an example of this, I look at:
>>More than 54 people have been killed by security forces in the protests so far, according to the UN Human Rights Office, although other reports put the figure much higher. Wednesday was the bloodiest day since the coup, with 38 protesters killed in cities and towns across the country. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56277165
and similar places where ethnic cleansing is happening and/or state forces are murdering protesters, even teenagers. People in the Global North, especially the ones not belonging to vulnerable minorities, can't seem to imagine that the boot of the state will ever land on their neck.
As elites and privileged classes get anxious about less wealth, less privilege, they'll fight with each other more and more, and the facade of "liberal democracy" will crumble.
And all of this is very presentist, which means short-term interests dominate, and that means kids and babies are most assuredly metaphorically fucked.
Every day without revolution means a worse future and a need for even greater radical change. Every delay is, at some level, an indirect attack on babies and children; it's their future which is being cannibalized for "stability" and the consumer lifestyle. This is a time restricted challenge, there's a clock ticking, it's not a timeless dialectical dance or whatever.
The constant conservation of the status quo, of business as usual, isn't without violence. It's without violence just for those who benefit nicely from it. There's plenty of structural violence and that will get much worse. Like with pandemic we've seen the vulnerable and untreated fall through the cracks. That's a type of [structural violence ▶️](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osyc7HhUWwc). With climate chaos and the biosphere collapse, that's going to get much worse. I think there were some articles yesterday with some old white conservative claiming that global warming is "mostly going to affect people in Africa, so... 🤷♂️" (to paraphrase).
We're essentially in a situation where apathy and fear will mean a lot of other people will die. And I'd be pissed if I was in the "other people" side. But this mentality of "*fuck you, got mine*" is at the core of why we're probably going extinct. The opposite of it is, of course, "an injustice to one is an injustice to all" or perhaps the friendlier public health dictum: "no one is safe until everyone is safe".
> Fascism has been famously described as “a counter-revolution against a revolution that never took place”
And my point is that fascism is coming either way as capitalism crumbles and capitalists fight each other to hold on to power and wealth. Even without paramilitaries, fascists and their friends will just continue to use police forces and military forces. Just with even more impunity. Like in Burma.
At leased be prepared for that. I think that's what everyone can and should do, even if it means taking time off work and being "poorer". The status quo doesn't like "idle hands" for good reason. It's called prefigurative politics, specifically, [revolutionary prefiguration](https://srslywrong.com/podcast/243-revolutionary-prefiguration-w-anark/). Add to that the collapse parts to prefigure.
Like capitalists encourage the rat racers to get extra gigs and always "grind", the extra gigs should be this process of learning and prefiguring. So that if/when the opportunities arise, people are somewhat ready. I'm not referring to accelerationism, if that's not clear. But people do have to give up on the bourgeois dreams that are the bait for the rat race.
>But I won’t encourage anyone to do so, because I’m not prepared to do it myself.
We get it, George. Even he did, it would be [stupid to write about it](https://web.archive.org/web/20210414062454/https://antispeciesistaction.com/security-culture).
Mon boot warns that though times are dire, a bold naive action may be detrimental and says that changing minds is just as important as unilateral actions.
> In the US, we see the growing paramilitarisation of politics. It cannot be long before far-right militias there, already committed to armed vigilantism, evolve into death squads on the Colombian model. As soon as they perceive a violent threat to the capital they defend, they will respond with greater violence of their own. Fascism has been famously described as “a counter-revolution against a revolution that never took place”. You don’t have to succeed in generating a new movement committed to a campaign of violence to create a monster much bigger than you are: a monster that will close down the last chance of saving Earth systems. If you are going to take a physical shot at capitalism, you had better not miss.
I think direct action can be regenerative and think phrases like ‘eat the rich’ disgust non bloodthirsty people or non cannibals while scaring the wealthy who also live on the planet to defend themselves against everyone else. A good read for anyone looking for nuance.
>scaring the wealthy who also live on the planet to defend themselves against everyone else.
it's not them defending themselves when they are attacking everyone else via their power over the system deforming it against everyone else.
anyways the elites are chronically afraid or full of hubris with very few in-between states. the only thing that makes those type of people behave is to truly strike fear into their hearts so they respond with compromise and reform . otherwise they will take and destroy everything for everyone.
monbiot is just a yuppie bitch. he is scared fascists will win. the only way to solve this is protracted UNCIVIL disobedience, highly organized.
there is no point in history where people genuflect to fascists and had a good outcome. And there is no point when elites give an inch without fear in their hearts.
you either play this game to win it or fail or play any other way and fail.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/416246:
---
Monbiot warns in response to Malm’s book and the film based on it that though times are dire, a bold naive action may be detrimental and says that changing minds is just as important as unilateral actions.
> In the US, we see the growing paramilitarisation of politics. It cannot be long before far-right militias there, already committed to armed vigilantism, evolve into death squads on the Colombian model. As soon as they perceive a violent threat to the capital they defend, they will respond with greater violence of their own. Fascism has been famously described as “a counter-revolution against a revolution that never took place”. You don’t have to succeed in generating a new movement committed to a campaign of violence to create a monster much bigger than you are: a monster that will close down the last chance of saving Earth systems. If you are going to take a physical shot at capitalism, you had better not miss.
I think direct action can be regenerative and think phrases like ‘eat the rich’ disgust non bloodthirsty people or non cannibals while scaring the wealthy who also live on the planet to defend themselves against everyone else. A good read for anyone looking for nuance.
This is collapse related because people are protesting and using civil disobedience to delay/prevent a collapse of organized society due to many different factors. This is a discussion of why more drastic measures may backfire without any gains if not properly considered.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/131yr8t/i_back_saboteurs_who_have_acted_with_courage_and/ji2hzoz/
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