You know how when a company produces a defective product (let's say exploding batteries), we blame the company who produced the product and the store that packaged it
AND
we try to prevent the defective product from being produced in the future?
We learn from the mistake and we try to prevent it from happening again.
Because we're mature, and we realize that not only is an individual to blame, but we can also make it harder for other individuals like them to cause the same damage to our society.
You're talking about defective products that harm people accidentally. There are plenty of examples of companies producing faulty firearms, and those firearms being recalled.
This sketch is related to firearms that work perfectly and is making a statement that the person using the firearm is at fault, not thie firearm itself.
I understand the point you were trying to make about cars to another person, but firearms (just like cars, knifes, and other items) do serve multiple purposes;such as hunting, self defense, and sport.
I don't think you need a repeating assult rifle to hunt. Do you also have to face off against rampaging boar?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/louisianas-senator-bill-cassidy-says-he-uses-his-ar-15-to-kill-feral-pigs/articleshow/91841234.cms
Do you have zombies attacking your house while you're trying to sleep so you need such high caliber repeating rifles?
The second amendment was written at a time when it took 2 minutes to load and fire a rifle. I think we should go back to that standard, honestly.
>The second amendment was written at a time when it took 2 minutes to load and fire a rifle.
You have zero understanding on this topic. Please educate yourself prior to spewing nonsense.
good comeback.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG/1200px-Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG
Lol. That pic is solid. But seriously minutemen were expected to load and fire three times a minute. There were repeating firearms dating back to the 1600's. Founders owned warships. Hope you look into these topics more because they are interesting and a foundation for our protected rights.
> repeating firearms dating back to the 1600
I'm interested in this. Can you show me how the repeating firearms of the 1600s compare to the repeating assault rifles that I could buy in, let's say, Texas?
Let's say I'm an average citizen in the 1600s, with an average wage. Can I purchase this repeating firearm you're talking about, with the same degree that I can purchase an assault rifle? If so, and the weapons were just as deadly, then I'm amazed that there hasn't been nearly as much technological improvement as I thought. I may even eat my shoe!
> Founders owned warships
Not really sure how that's relevant unless you're providing a link to where I can buy my own tank.
https://youtu.be/rCuVMx5h1x0 ... these fully automatic flintlock machine guns were built and sold to the US government and commercial buyers within a few years of the Bill of Rights being signed, with zero pushback or legislative action taken.
If you consider the advances in modern medicine small arms were almost definitely more deadly then modern small arms.
>Let's say I'm an average citizen in the 1600s, with an average wage.
Most likely not affordable as there were few gunsmiths operating on these designs. But let me ask is wealth a reasonable bar for access to arms? I think that's actually one of the best parts about AR pattern rifles, the common man can afford them, work on them, even build them.
I own it to defend myself in times of need. Whether that need be civil war, nautral disaster, or martial law. The AR-15 is not only the most practical rifle for hunting small game, but for taking out armored combatants from 50 to a maximum of 400 meters.
The Second Amendment allowed civillians to own military grade firearms like cannons and naval warships. We continue to own military grade firearms. The only thing that has changed is a continual increase of government oversight and loss of personal responsibility.
Just to clarify, it sounds like you're in support of americans owning tanks, bazzokas and rocket launchers.
I think that's insane, but I want to clarify your insane position.
I'm in favor of that. Ffs, without men like them there would be no America period. Thousands of colonists mounted their personally owned 1700s-equivalent of bazookas and rocket launchers onto privately owned boats and took on the Royal Navy.
National Park Service- [Privateers in the American Revolution](https://www.nps.gov/articles/privateers-in-the-american-revolution.htm#:~:text=A%20Letter%20of%20Marque%20authorized,was%20to%20disrupt%20enemy%20shipping.)
>Just to clarify, it sounds like you're in support of americans owning tanks, bazzokas and rocket launchers.
We can own destructive devices I own a grenade launcher
> The second amendment was written at a time when it took 2 minutes to load and fire a rifle. I think we should go back to that standard, honestly.
The estimates for these all include reloading:
1597 [Stopler Revolver](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Hans-Stopler-Revolver-1597-2.jpg) probably difficult to push past 16 rounds per minute.
1630 [Kalthoff repeater](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Magasinsgev%C3%A4r_med_flintl%C3%A5s%2C_system_Kalthoff%2C_1600-talets_mitt_-_Livrustkammaren_-_9853.tif/lossy-page1-800px-Magasinsgev%C3%A4r_med_flintl%C3%A5s%2C_system_Kalthoff%2C_1600-talets_mitt_-_Livrustkammaren_-_9853.tif.jpg) 30-60 rounds per minute
1770 [Cookson Repeater](http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-cookson-repeater.html) some versions of it could probably get near 20 rounds per minute
1774/5 [Fafting rifle](https://books.google.com/books?id=PsNFAAAAcAAJ&q=Fafting+1775+Fusil&pg=RA4-PA17#v=snippet&q=Fafting%201775%20Fusil&f=false) page 17. 18 to 20 rounds a minute and working on an improved 30 round per minute design
1792 [Chambers multi-barrel naval swivel gun/ Chambers Flintlock "Machine Gun"](https://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/115792417492/ordnance-of-the-week-chambers-swivel-gun-the) 120 rounds per minute. 175-220 round capacity fires every shot after trigger pull. Used by US navy during the war of 1812.
1813 [Church and Bartemy/Bartholomew gun](https://books.google.com/books?id=ZiVEAAAAYAAJ&dq=Shots+In+A+Minute&pg=PA217#v=onepage&q=Shots%20In%20A%20Minute&f=false) page 217. 25 rounds per minute
Organ guns date back to the 14th century. [example of one from 1678](https://i.redd.it/it22mwiym2521.jpg)
Other types of volley guns date back just as far. A predecessor to the [Mitrailleuse](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Mitrailleuse_front.jpg) was developed in 1775.
>Do you have zombies attacking your house while you're trying to sleep so you need such high caliber repeating rifles?
High caliber. AR-15. lol
Also, I'm sure you've heard this before, but it's not a Bill of Needs, it's a Bill of Rights. Nobody has to justify anything to you, zombies or not.
My right is life liberty and pursuit of happiness. I think those are higher value than your hobby.
Sorry.
Children in my community are dying because of your hobby, so I think you need to find a new one.
> Children in my community are dying because of your hobby, so I think you need to find a new one.
I realize this might be a bit complex for you to grasp, but surely you can understand that the actual murderers might have something to do with murders?
1. Not a hobby.
2. Actually your rights are not more important than mine. Until I actually DO something to infringe on your rights, you have zero right to infringe on mine. My owning something is not an infringement of your rights.
You don't understand rights at all.
If you want to support an amendment to the Constitution to revoke the second Amendment, that would be one thing. But you're not entitled to just ignore it.
Also, it took about 30 seconds for someone with practice, not 2 minutes.
Also a note AR-15s are usually not high caliber but resist rather small caliber.
What you're talking about is completely irrelevant to the point being made here, but just to cover it anyway:
1) Assault rifle is a pointless term, mere fear baiting that is randomly attributed to firearms people think are scary.
2) I don't personally hunt, but when I go camping I do take an AR-15 with me because wild boars are not the only danger you face in the wild in America. There are bears, wolverines, coyotes, other humans, and animals infected with rabies.
3) Zombies have nothing to do with anything, and I don't know why you brought them up. I do know people who use the zombie angle as a way to put a fun spin on hypothetical emergency situations, as many of the dangers and considerations you may have to take into account for a "zombie scenario" are the same things you would have to consider for natural disasters and periods of political unrest.
4) Your point about muskets is plain false. A good musket user can fire more than once per minute, and muskets aren't the only "arm" (armament) protected by the second amendment. Also, repeating muskets were around when the second amendment was written, they simply weren't commonplace due to their considerable cost of manufacture.
Let's imagine a fictional world where cars and trucks are used exclusively for killing people, and not for transporting people around.
Then yes.
But unfortunatley our fictional world just replaced the word 'gun' with the word 'cars or trucks', so I'm not sure how that helps.
>Let's imagine a fictional world where cars and trucks are used exclusively for killing people,
There are more guns than people. If guns were used "exclusively for killing people" everyone here would likely be dead.
Ok, so you're saying there's a reason to have Armour-peircing rounds *other* than killing people? (particuarly cops).
What kind of boars are you fighting against?
>Let's imagine a fictional world where cars and trucks are used exclusively for killing people
You couldn't even make it out of the first sentence without setting up a strawman argument.
I own several and they are used often. And somehow, not one person has ever been killed by them.
You do realize the difference between an object and personal responsibility when using that object... Right?
What am I saying, of course you don't. Why talk about bad people when you can just demonize an inanimate object?
Everyone- I need to apologize.
I came home- and my neighbors gun had in FACT…… killed me. It just goes to show- we can never be sure when the guns will find us and kill us.
How is that relevant? If cars were designed to kill people, then I would ban them.
Besides, this isn't really a gotcha for me, because I earnestly believe we need to transition to public transport anyway, and should be phasing out cars anyway, so you could say I also think we should start restricting cars.
So those deaths don’t matter to you because they don’t fit your agenda? But haven’t cars and trucks been driven into crowds before?
So restrict the right to defend your home with the best tool or shoot steel because you enjoy it, restrict being able to drive yourself to work and not deal with terrible public transport. What else needs to be taken away or controlled by the government?
I can't follow you. Can you try to say it clearer? My agenda is not having tools specifically designed for killing.
Should I say it again? If a car was only used for killing, ie: not for transporting people, then I would agree about banning them.
But unfortunatley our fictional world just replaced the word 'gun' with the word 'cars or trucks', so I'm not sure how that helps.
Your point isn’t entirely valid because while there are some guns made for killing people, in 99.9% of cases legal self defense, there are a lot more guns that are made and sold for use in a hobby, whether it shooting sports or hunting or collecting antiques (which most are weapons of war, but called “hunting rifles” by politician definitions).
What really takes the cake is that it’s a very similar situation to knives. Knives, like guns and cars, are not inherently bad. And much like firearms, knives have legitimate purposes in a (mostly) civilized world, kitchen use, also used in hunting, collecting, and self defense if guns are not available.
So you saying that guns only exist to kill people and therefore should be banned is not only a false claim, but was using an incorrect comparison and provided limited (if any) sourcing. My sourcing would be the subreddit, consisting of people who do all of the previously mention things, you came onto to spout anti gun bull, despite this very place being in favor of what you don’t like.
It's almost like people have different opinions and occasionally stumble onto echo chambers like this one.
"Muh firearms. Muh freedom. Muh 2nd ammendment."
Unironically, yes, they do want to take that away. They want to pass "hate speech" legislation. AOC just gave an interview where she said Tucker Carlson should be locked up for because he said things she doesn't like.
Target shooting and shooting competitions are predicated on making your shots accurately and faster than your competitor. Even muskets fire 2-3 shots per minute if you've ever fired one before, so that is not a compromise by any stretch of the definition.
My AR pattern rifle was designed for competition shooting, and so was my semi-automatic handgun. Like a hammer or a knife or a car, according to you, it wasn't designed to kill, so it is acceptable.
> exclusively for killing people
[Biathlon rifles](https://www.outdoorlife.com/uploads/2022/02/02/ANSCHUTZ-1827-F-BIONIC-orange-01.jpeg) and Olympic pistols are specifically designed for their sport.
3-gun, IPSC, IDPA, SCSA, and USPSA all have a wide range of guns designed for their specific classes, rules, and divisions. [example pistol](https://gundigest.com/wp-content/uploads/DVC-Open_profile-right.jpg)
[Anti-material rifles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82#/media/File:Barrett-M82A1-Independence-Day-2017-IZE-048-white.jpg) are designed for anti-material purposes.
A number of "firearms" are designed as signaling devices.
Specific types of ammunition for firearms have been designed for other purposes i.e. .50 Beowulf was designed to stop a vehicle's engine from running.
None of those are deigned or meant to kill people.
The AR-15 wasn't even designed to kill people. The requirements for its design were a 6 pound, select-fire .22 rifle with a conventional stock and a 20 round magazine. That could achieve a muzzle velocity of 3300fps with a 55 grain bullet.
Ford isnt liable when a drunk driver hits someone. Companies arent liable for misuse of a product, and shootings arent a defect.
Defective guns are already covered by the laws you are proposing, Remington had to pay out for a defective trigger recently. You are advocating for something that already exists.
Firearms arent used exclusively for killing people so your first point is kinda not relevant here. Even if that were the case, how does that matter? A couple airplanes killed 3000 people far easier than trying to do that with a firearm. And even if it was easy to do such a thing, my rights trump any kind of opinion you may have.
good comback.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG/1200px-Beijing_bouddhist_monk_2009_IMG_1486.JPG
No, *you're* on the wrong sub, you're looking for /r/imnotsmartenoughtocomeupwitharebuttle
I'm sorry, I don't follow. I am in support of free healthcare for everyone and free mental healthcare for everyone, but I'm not drawing the connection.
You know that there are mentally ill people across the whole world, and yet the United States still has higher gun related deaths than most other developed nation?
I'll give you a clue: it has to do with the amount of guns per person, and the laws related to those guns.
And you’re certain it has nothing to do with:
- The abolishment of many psych wards in the 60’s
- The martyr-creation of the punks who participated in Columbine, and every shooter after
- The no-self-defense clause in American schools
- The increase in absolutely horrible parents
- The increase in single-parent homes
- The increased population density of schools
Because we certainly didn’t have any school shootings until all of those factors hit. Since its a more recent problem, it can’t be the guns that are creating the issue.
Have you ever watched a revolutionary war re-inactment?
You know how they had guns, but it took forever to fire them?
How about we compromise.
You can have guns, but only if you're only able to fire off one bullet every 2 minutes. That is the kind of gun laws I think (and It sounds like you agree since you think there haven't been gun advacements in the last 60 years) we can all agree on.
>You can have guns, but only if you’re only able to fire off one bullet every 2 minutes.
This completely contradicts the second amendment. If civilians are only allowed to own firearms that HEAVILY outdate the weaponry used by every military in the world the 2A becomes obsolete. How are you supposed to defend from a tyrannical government, domestic or foreign, if your guns can fire 1 round every 2 minutes but theirs can fire 1400 rounds every 2 minutes?
The “well the founding fathers had muskets” argument is so stupid. 200 years before the American Revolution people were fighting with spears and bow and arrows, 200 years after the American Revolution people were fighting with M16’s. People make technological advancements over time, the founding fathers were well aware of this.
Repeating rifles were already invented in the 1700’s. A solid 3rd of gun deaths are suicides. Only about 400 a year are from rifles. People murder other people with other tools when they one they desire most isnt available.
If we’re that scared of 400 deaths a year, well we need to start regulating at-home bathrooms, since theyre the culprit of more than 20,000 injuries a year.
I'm sorry I didn't address your bullet points. I was just a bit too blown away by it I guess.
Do you have an example of a developed nation that has lax gun laws (on par with the US) and lower gun deaths, and can show that these things are a factor?
Because otherwise it seems like you just generated a random list of ideas without any source.
There is onefactor that has affected gun deaths. It's number of guns. Just look at data on the number of guns per person (in various countries), and the number of gun deaths per person.
It's a line.
Why does “gun deaths” matter in comparison to total deaths? If gun deaths are higher but total numbers are lower, well, there isn’t much of a problem.
If you think going door to door to all the gang members and all the drug smugglers and all the psychos and saying to give in their gun will work, you’re crazy.
I’m assuming you believe the police are an all-divine entity that never makes mistakes and always arrives on time, as well.
Rapes stopped, carjackings stopped, home invasions stopped, far stumps the numbers of gun deaths in the US.
Its not a gun problem. We just have bad people in our country, more than others. If you can’t even begin to look at other factors, you’re far beyond saving.
We’re done here
Let's also compromise.
We will only have voting laws like in the 1700s.
Abortions can only be done using 1700s methods.
Free speech is only protected if done with 1700s technology.
The way you're talking it sounds like you would be for only white males able to vote since that's how it was during this time period you keep bringing up.
Those weapons you speak about that took 2 minutes to reload were the same ones that the government had, the most advanced firearms at that time. Weapons evolve but even so, citizens historically have always been able to have the same firearms as the government..
You wishing wishing government having fire superiority over its citizens goes completely against the constitution.
> I'll give you a clue: it has to do with the amount of guns per person, and the laws related to those guns.
Really? [Then why is there no correlation between firearm homicide rate and guns per capita?](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F046b82cf-95e2-40a9-872d-4dd59837ffef_720x522.png)
By your logic, should I then blame your parents for raising a soft-headed coward in a world already overflowing with the like? Or should I blame the school system for not teaching you what happens to a populace that's been disarmed?
Every people of my heritage, the Lakota, the German Jew, the Polish, the Irish, has been systematically disarmed, oppressed, and killed by the governments of their time and place. All thought, "It's not that bad, yet, we'll comply, then they'll leave us alone," or "It'll never happen here." And yet it happened anyway. The history of mankind is littered with the corpses of the compliant and the harmless. I don't advocate doing violence on others. I believe in peace and nonaggression. I simply believe that to be peaceful, one must first be capable of great violence, or else one is not peaceful. One is harmless.
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward."
Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
Maturity is about compromising with different viewpoints to solve a problem. Not throwing a tantrum and crying until you get the exact way that you want.
>company produces a defective product (let's say exploding batteries), we blame the company who produced the product
Are you for real? Any company that makes a DEFECTIVE product gets blamed and can be sued. If I bludgeon you with a flashlight, will you sue Surefire? No, because they didn't sell a DEFECTIVE product; the operator misused it. Just like with firearms, an operator has to misuse them for it to be an offense. You're being obtuse and intellectually dishonest.
😂 did you read that guys comments? Calling functional products defective is not the worst of his logic. Not sure why people are even engaging with him when the bottom line is he enjoys freedoms we are fortunate to have. They would not be freedoms we enjoy if not for an armed society using the very inanimate objects he despises. He doesn’t see the irony of telling people to do research when he must be ignorant to the fact that mass shootings were not common when you were able to order machine guns out of catalogs shipped to your door. Those days are long gone yet even with more gun laws in place than ever before mass shootings have become commonplace. No point in arguing with someone that refuses to accept it is an inalienable right, a way to protect life and freedom, I also get plenty of happiness out of shooting sporting clays and ringing steel targets.
I was only addressing this comment, I don't really care what he thinks, but it's good for the entire community when many people visibly reject stupid opinions like his. That's why I commented.
A firearm being used effectively in a criminal act is entirely different from being defective. It was effective, just criminally misused.
If I were to intentionally drop my washing machine on an innocent person, Maytag has zero liability for making a defective product in that case. But if their washing machine was designed negligently such that it caused house fires, that would be a case where they were plausibly liable.
To highlight why criminal intent matters, I’ll add one more example.
Guns are used in war. And most people that are not pure pacifists will tend to side with one side being at least somewhat more justified than the other. In my estimation, Ukraine defending themselves is much more a justified act. But in practice, the act of using a gun as designed is the same—either side is using the weapon with the intent to end the life of their opponent. On neither side is the creation of the weapon the most concerning act—for Ukraine’s sake, those weapons being made to be as deadly as possible to their opponent is a morally good thing. And yet, it’s very possible that arms on the battlefield in the Russia-Ukraine war were indeed made by the same manufacturer. And furthermore, when Ukraine appropriates a gun or a tank that Russia abandoned, that literal same gun is then being used for a morally good purpose, where it previously was used for evil.
Blaming the weapon itself, or the manufacturer, is nonsense. Whether intentional or not, sneaking *defective products* into questions about criminal uses of a thing is a confusion of the moral question.
Wait, so the firearm manufacturer made a defective human?! Maybe the human held the gun and the defective gun forced the human to walk into a school and made the human shoot those people?
I get it now.
I was downvoted over 60 times for making a comment, staying that he truly believes he didn't shoot anyone, and it was the revolvers fault, on a very prominent reddit subswamp.
A few days ago after a similar experience, I have realized its not worth navigating those subswamp waters any more. It was more out of curiosity on my end i guess than anything but they are the most pitiable, miserable, wretched people. Its better for my mental health to just have absolute zero contact. They’ve drank so much Koolaid their hair’s turned blue.
I mean it’s funny and I love my ar15s but by this logic everyone should be allowed to own nuclear bombs. No shit they don’t kill on their own, but there’s got to be a line somewhere, I just don’t know where that line should be drawn or how to enforce it
I usually say area of effect weapons. Explosives and the like. Not banning them per se but they really do require safe storage and regular inspections etc. The resource cost alone of acquiring and maintaining them is a bit self selecting, and I think sunshine on the details like location and quantity is valuable for maintaining sanity in application.
To be honest the real problem is loss of reasonable cultural expectations for weapon ownership. Rebuilding that is going to be a bear.
I matched with someone on a dating app and I’m glad we ended up on the topic of guns before I actually wasted time going out with here. I never met anyone who had this logic until her I couldn’t believe it
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