Israel better shut this kind of thing down asap. Right now they have the sympathy of the world to deal with Gaza. But that could quickly evaporate with this kind of shit.
It should have already evaporated. They just committed terror attacks. By their own standards of war, this means their entire nation should be bombed to find the couple terrorists that did this.
Well, one can go back forever with 'we did this because they did that, and they did that because we did this,...' but this latest siege of Gaza is clearly in response to a monumental ramp up of violence by Hamas. Before that, there were regular rocket attacks by Hamas, and shit done by settlers and the idf.
I mean the casualty count was always massively in favor of Israel forever, so Hamas evening it slightly for once isn't a massive ramp up. It's them doing more than the usual 25 Palestinian deaths for every 1 isreali.
Personally, I don't see how anyone can root for either side here. Both are massive shitheads that don't belong in power. I say send Hamas and the entire right-wing Israeli government to The Hague to face trial.
It should evaporate if this trend of them attacking west Bank arabs continues because it shows that even if you aren't involved in an attack the israeli will still attack you.
>It should evaporate if this trend of them attacking west Bank arabs continues because it shows that even if you aren't involved in an attack the israeli will still attack you.
They've been doing this for years. And they basically stepped up the attacks this year prior to the Hamas attack. No one has given a shit, sadly.
International public support has never really mattered, israel kills palestinians regardless as long as foreign goverments support them. Even before the recent escalations this has been a year and a decade chock full of dead palastinian civilians.
At this point with its neighbors pacified or disrupted israel can kinda act as it wishes, and it seems like dumbass reditors will cheer them on actually based on what I've seen in worldnews
This kind of shit had been happening for decades, these kinds of attacks have dramatically increased this year but no one in the West cares about Israeli terrorist attacks.
This is not new.
It’s been happening the last 3 months. Over 200 died. This was one of the triggers for the hamas attack in the first place.
Just the news was not covering it until the war started.
This entire conflict is two groups of people who both had the moral high ground, repeatedly throwing it away in the most senseless acts of violence and cruelty, over and over and over.
They will do exactly that and everyone will look bad at the end of this and many children will be dead, buried under rubble.
There’s no real parallels though to regular stable countries. It’s a powerless occupied territory. They have very little in the way of self determination. The average age is 18. Under constant assault.
Modern stable countries solved most of these sorts of issues when violent oppression, expulsion, conquest, and genocide was still in vogue.
Israel isn’t some innocent saint of a country, but they are the ones who kept winning and kept offering peace. At some point the Palestinians need to realize they lost 70 years ago and their leadership continues to not care about their future. And removing Hamas, if that’s even possible, and will be extremely costly for innocent life, may be a step forward to that future.
It’s peace on their terms. I mean they can bully because they have the strength to do so.
I don’t think what they have offered 22% of the land to be a fair deal based on population size. And you’ll note they give them all the shit desert land in that deal as well. And won’t give back any illegally obtained settlements.
I think the 1967 boarders as is a fair starting point. That’s what the Israelis have outright refused.
Of course it’s peace on Israeli terms, they won. Every time.
1967 borders are a pipe dream right now and probably forever. All the positions of the leading Palestinian governments/groups feed right into the propaganda of the extra Zionist/religious/ethno-nationalist wing of Israel, which is constantly edging out the more moderate parties. And has no problem killing moderate Israeli leaders.
The consistent factor here is Palestinian leadership refusing to compromise. At some point that’s gotta give.
The consistent factor is both sides not moving.
I don’t adopt a “might is right” philosophy to the negotiations. I think a fair deal is the only way this gets resolved. Not continued subjugation and humiliation.
I don’t see how that is possible when all the major parties one side of the conflict reject the existence of the other side, overtly or not.
Palestinians need to take full stock of their situation and proceed based on what’s best for their future. That isn’t possible for a Gaza ruled by Hamas which will now end in tragedy.
Both sides in power reject the existence of the other. Israel’s parliament right now is full of extremists. One of them has a painting on his wall of a mass murder who slaughtered innocent civilian Palestinians.
Israel helped creat Hamas, funding them. So maybe they can interfere behind the scenes to depose them.
Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s defense minister, actively supports and encourages this behavior from settlers. They’re allowed to roam around with AR-15s casually and the IDF supports these settlers.
They went back into Israel so they're using human shields. Bomb their entire city because it can't be helped. Casualties will be the fault of the terrorist settlers.
Just using Israel's own standards here.
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Bad guy vs bad guy is not a good way to look at this at all. Considering that Israel literally [funded](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) Hamas to counterweight secular and leftists in Palestine. Hmm I wonder what the consequences would be of this if you keep bombing an open air prison… well Israel’s security service has that [answer](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-06/ty-article/.premium/the-leftist-agenda-has-infiltrated-the-shin-bet-israeli-ministers-slam-security-chief/00000189-ca69-d9f3-a1cd-fffbd04a0000) which Netanyahu did not give a shit about.
>Both sides*
Israeli settlers terrorizing Palestinian residents isn't "it’s bad guy vs bad guy at the moment" you ducking idiot. It's ONE side that's bad in this scenario, and it's the fuckin Israelis.
> you genocidal fascist idiot.
Hamas has in it's charter for the destruction of every Jew in the world. Is that not the definition of genocide? Why are liberal women in NYC so fucking ignorant?
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It certainly is a tragedy, no one deserves to be attacked, harmed and killed in their own home.
However, they probably aren't cutting babies' throats, decapitating people or carting off the women to be raped to death. So that's something.
This is false. It was a terrorist attack. Them going back into Israel means they're using human shields. I guess we have to nuke the entire nation now right?
Hamas are the defacto government of Gaza so it's not as dissimilar as you are implying.
And to preempt the "no elections for 20 years": they ran and were voted in on the promise they would halt all future votes, and Gazans generally still support them according to polls.
> Hamas are the defacto government of Gaza so it's not as dissimilar as you are implying.
I'm aware, but I think the point - that we should hold the government of Israel to higher standards than Hamas, was pretty clear.
There will always be big support from Ireland because they were in the same boat for so long - a small nation being oppressed by their larger, better armed, more powerful neighbour
And it's amazing how that support evaporates among all those good liberals when they arent perfect victims being murdered with little fanfare. What other country other than Isreal has American sport leagues feeling like they have to make a statement of solidary? There are no bigger cry bullies in the world than Israel.
Isreal completely controls Gaza. It's why they are able just turn off their water, electricity and food supplies. Isreal administers all of those things. It's why if you're granted the permission to leave from Isrealis authorities there is no right to return. Even requests for medical leave are routinely denied or delayed for years to the point the person in question dies of their illness. There is no symmetry in the relationship.
Well that's a different thing entirely, to be honest. History has shown that no matter who's in control of the government, Democrats or Republicans, the US military will actively support Israel in pretty much any military action it takes. So even if the people of America support Palestine, which the majority unfortunately do not, there's basically nothing we can do to change current US policy in the region.
Sure but they CAN REFLECT the very much real life general consensus on something. I would most definitely argue for the fact that most people before the last week were definitely pro-Palestine. Now Israel gets more support because of the recent trauma
Maybe if Hamas didn't tell them to not evacuate. https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-and-palestinian-islamic-jihad-gaza-strip-residents-do-not-evacuate-areas-about-be
The Isreaeli warning, and your article is about Gaza. This happened in the west bank.So your link is not relevant in this case.
>Three Palestinians were killed by gunfire from Israeli forces and settlers in **Qusra village near the West Bank city of Nablus** on Wednesday, the Palestinian official news agency said.
Also Hamas does not rule the west bank, Fatah do. [aljazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-the-palestinian-authority-and-how-is-it-viewed-by-palestinians)
Standard procedure for more martyrs https://www.jta.org/2014/07/13/israel/hamas-calls-on-palestinian-civilians-to-remain-in-homes-in-face-of-israeli-warningss
This year has been the deadliest in near 20 years for Palestinians in the West Bank, more than 200 have died so far. So this is really just it actually being reported now.
Isreali TERRORISTS not settlers and military. They killed innocents in an entirely different area who they are not at war with.
But this won't be covered or acknowledged
This has nothing to do with Hamas btw. This isn't Gaza, it's the region on the opposite side of the country--the party in control is Hezbollah, who didn't attack this time. Btw, there was an alert accusing them of such a few hours ago but that was a false detection since the Israeli side is trying to adapt systems for detection of paragliders.
To answer your question of how to uproot Hamas, the short answer is no. You may be able to erase the specific organization but the conflict is deep rooted and a true solution requires action against Israel as well that there is limited political will to do.
To begin with, Hamas is considered the legitimate government, though their election is quite stale. A re-election could theoretically unseat them, though preliminary polling indicates that is not so.
The long term answer is foreign intervention to curtail the IDF, disarm Hamas, and extensive aid to the region for development. Curtailing the IDF and keeping it in check is the most vital part towards peace. The reason extreme parties like Hamas are in power is because there is widespread resentment of Israel. Although a portion of that support is religious conflict and resentment over the founding of the Israeli state and its occupation of common sacred sites, a good amount of continued resentment is due to active Israeli attacks and sabotage of the region in the intervening decades.
Israel restricts access, aid, trade, education, infrastructure, and general development of the region while forcibly displacing its residents and placing their own settlers. Its agenda, particulatly when the right is in control, is very openly the destruction of the Palestinian state and people. The IDF is well documented committing callous war crimes and human rights violations against Palestinians, and dehumanizes them to a point where some incidents can be described as killing for sport--women and children not excluded. The current air campaign against Gaza reflects this; even if they claim they are always attacking military Hamas targets, any critical mind can figure out what goes on when you drop bombs to collapse apartment buildings in a city--uncontrolled civil casualties. Though suppressed compared to Israeli deaths, there is footage of Palestinian children burning in the aftermath of bombs, and they are just as tragic. Palestinians cannot escape or integrate into Israeli society due to extensive entrapment efforts and being less than second class citizens. Physical barriers are also in place; even during the current bombing campaign, when Israel declares that all Gazans must leave the region or be considered combatants, this is logistically impossible with only one major road to non-Israeli states (Egypt) that is also being attacked--including a declaration that inbound humanitarian aid convoys will also be targeted.
The violence is a two-way street of course, and Hamas is plenty genocidal of its own and thus should also be stopped, but fundamentally one must recognize that Hamas is a symptom of radicalization by destabilization of the region. It will be impossible to eliminate Hamas and organizations like this without addressing the fundamental problem of the IDF/settler genocide campaign on the Palestinian people. Moreover, it is unjust for us as third parties to demand that a people who are being oppressed, displaced, and killed by a technologically vastly superior military unilaterally disband their government and surrender their remaining rights and livelihood it is charged to guarantee without any security assurances in return. Even if that government is committing a horrible terror campaign of its own--if we fail to address the fundamental issues that caused a whole people to turn to a violent faction as their only remaining salvation, it will just be replaced by the same until the Palestinian people are fully cleansed.
A man whose family is hungry will not stop theft if his hands are cut--he will keep coming until he is cut down, and then his children will continue in his place. The only way to end the cycle of violence is to address the need.
That’s a nice ending you have there, but it’s a fairytale. They don’t want peace. Also, Palestinians think all the destruction happening in Gaza now is an equal trade with what Hamas “accomplished” on the weekend.
I think you should reflect on your conclusion. Ask what would make a people be like that.
Maybe because they are desperation, hunger, unemployment. No ability for self determination. No hope for any real future. Born into a prison.
I don’t agree with your take. In the holocaust, Jews didn’t go to German homes and massacre civilians. Poles didn’t behead children and babies of either Germans or Russians. Ukrainians today aren’t targeting civilians either.
> “Think about what leads people to this?”
Indoctrination. Religious ideology that calls for hate. Have you seen how Hamas teach their children in the strip? This has been going on a long time, way before Gaza became what it is now.
What Gaza has become is the fault of the Palestinians and Hamas. A wall was built to stop the almost daily terrorist attacks on civilians - and it worked. Like I say, as to the conditions inside the strip. This is the responsibility of Hamas and the people there, this was not the only outcome, it’s the one they chose.
> “Open air prison”
is just a propaganda line. There are crossings which are usually open including into Egypt, people can move about inside and outside the strip. There’s an airport and people can leave if they have the will.
> “Hope for the future”
is what Hamas decides in the strip, and they’ve decided there will be no future. When Israel pulled out of the strip in 2005, it left all the housing, businesses and equipment (printing presses, manufacture etc), farmland and crops (some of the most fertile) so the Palestinians will have a ready made successful future. Instead, they burned everything.
Don’t be fooled: Hamas is a terror group, not a freedom fighting group. The end of what they want is different to what a freedom fighting group want. Hamas only want death and violence, there can be no negotiation with the Jews on their eyes. Just look at the Hamas interview with Russia Today which says this.
Look at their charter which says “kill all Jews”.
When people tell you who they are, believe them.
A lot of that’s not true.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Israel%20and%20the%20Middle%20East,entering%20or%20leaving%20the%20territory.
Everything I said is true. Think more critically before you post statements like that.
Israel pulled out in 2005 and built a wall and yes imposed sanctions. Before the pull out, there was no wall. There was a time, but you might be too young to remember, when there were very few restrictions on Palestinians, but these came in very quickly from 2005 onwards: walls, iron dome, harsher military doctrine, right wing government. This is all the product of the last 20 years alone. It’s like the Israeli population woke up to the fact that Hamas doesn’t want peace.
I see you have though some idealistic view of their relationship without Hamas.
Easily disproven with what happens on the west bank where they are subservient and the Palestinians get the shit kicked out of them and killed. Very consistently.
No one condones the settlers in the West Bank. It’s a different political situation there, but I agree it’s not good. I won’t be saying “they had it coming to them because of all the terror”, like you’re telling me the Israeli civilians “had it coming to them because of all the Israeli action”. That’s the mindset that propagates war. I know I won’t be able to cure you of it, but think about this: how many deaths will it take for you to change your mind that violence on either side is justified?
Yeah… this new right wing government Israel has is a problem. If you know about Israeli politics though, you also know before this terror attack there have been protests of 100k people plus trying to get the government to change, for something like 3 months. People there don’t like what’s going on…. But if anything can get them to unify behind a government, it’s going to be shooting their toddlers in their beds at point blank range, isn’t it?
There are no peoples who do not wish for the salvation of their children. Are there violent and bitter Palestinians? Sure, and more than a few who have been so radicalized. However dismantling the system that causes that will address tensions over a multigenerational scale. Yes, Arab governments want Jews dead just as Israel wants Arabs dead, and that will take a long time to heal. However you can't even begin if they are still hitting each other.
Moreover you realize that the impact of the Hamas attacks on the weekend pale in comparison to the Israeli impact on Palestinian casualties per annum? If they consider it equal surely that's far more forgiving than most peoples in the same situation throughout history. Typically blood begets more blood.
Or are you simply arguing that this is a fundamental difference in their humanity, that they are inherently violent and unsaveable?
I’m saying that there is a fundamental difference in their education, their beliefs and their culture which is incompatible with what you’re saying.
Think of it this way: Palestinians weren’t always kept in the West Bank and the strip, Gaza wasn’t always walled up, checkpoints weren’t always there. Offers of land and peace for a Palestinian nation to establish used to be frequently offered. None of that is true anymore. What led to all that?
Could it be the insistence of the Palestinians and the leaders they choose, to pick terrorism over peace with Israel, time and time again? Just read the Hamas charter. Just look at terrorist attacks of the past: these things are not new. I don’t know how old you are, but I remember when thing like this used to happen more frequently. Nothing has changed, because the aims of the Palestinians have remained the same, even when conditions were better for them.
So no, I don’t think breaking down the walls of Gaza will help matters, I think they’ll return them to what they were before the wall went up.
For the record. I don’t appreciate your final paragraph, but I understand why you felt the need to ask.
Also that is what the US carrier group and threats of allies on both sides are for; nobody is really rushing to Palestinian aid but have alerted against incursions into their own territories, and Israel is being conditionally supported by the threat of US action, enforcing conflict containment.
Idk that it'd work, but supporting the alternative (Fatah) would be worth a shot. Show that over in the West Bank, these Palestinians that aren't yelling 'Death to Israel' and all that are doing much better, are living peacefully, and have an economy that is growing from trade with Israel. People see things on social media, even in Gaza, and news of the more peaceful Palestinians doing well potentially leads to a shift in support from Hamas to Fatah, or at least away from the violent path.
Instead Israel have done the opposite and shown lots of young Palestinians that the peaceful approach just gets you shot and your land stolen.
yea this attack alone shows that even though the west bank was not involved the Israeli are still going to attack them. they showed that peace doesn't remove the target on their backs.
Not really. People don't understand that the majority of Gazans support Hamas and their actions. You can easily find the videos of dead Israelis being paraded around Gaza, and your average every-day Gazan is seen cheering and beating the Israeli as they are paraded around. Hell, even pro-palestinians in the west refuse to condemn Hamas.
Hamas has pretty wide support, and I'm sure a huge percentage of the population that doesn't support it knows and loves supporters. It's reminiscent of the US in Vietnam: For every Viet Cong the Americans killed, they radicalized more of the dead's friends and family to the cause. The difference here is neither side can unilaterally extricate itself.
Most Israelis are frequently pissed at the sense of entitlement that settlers and Orthodox Jews have in common. No matter how often the police arrest them the government always gives them a free pass.
Orthodox Jews are exempt from conscription And they think that a strictly religious life is a greater concern.
As for the settlers, they are just upset that Israel is capable of steam rolling the Palestinians, but chooses not to. They are typically individuals whose mindsets exceed simple patriotism, due to being raised with a nationalistic sense of entitlement. When I met my Israeli cousins, they did not have nice things to say about Netanyahu or the settlements.
>Orthodox Jews are exempt from conscription and they think that a strictly religious life should be one’s concern.
I believe their lifestyles are literally paid for by the government too. Like the government pays shitloads so they can not work and just study religious texts.
All this has predictably lead to their being entitled assholes.
Afaik a lot of more secular jews hate them. Based off my admittedly limited experience having one yell at our car because our (Arab) tour guide was driving on the Sabbath, I do not like them either.
Indeed.
Israel is a secular Jewish state and its Supreme Court, which has had Arab Muslim Judges as permanently appointed members, has repeatedly ruled that it is not a theocracy. Nonetheless, Israel’s stated purpose is the preservation of Judaism, so paying people to live a life where they can fully commit themselves to study and prayer is part of that.
As you can imagine, this has led to them having a sense of affluenza that most Israelis (Jews and non-Jews) can’t relate to.
My Israeli parents take on settlers: if they’re killed, it’s their fault for building on land that wasn’t theirs to build on. They come from an era where settlers had their homes forcibly torn down and the settlers relocated as parts of peace agreements.
I'd always understood that the settlements were mainly the ultra-religious, do you know if that's the case or did I understand wrong? Most of my Jewish friends are Conservative or Reform, so my understanding is mostly through hearsay from them.
Not only that, but all too frequently they have an American accent. So thanks for that, I guess... /s
But tbh it's a bit more subtle than that. Orthodox Judaism is the only really recognized form in Israel. Even the secular jews, as someone said, "don't believe in God - the orthodox way". It's a very sour point between Israel and diaspora jews.
So yeah, most of the religious jews in Israel are orthodox. But even among them there are divisions: the ultra-orthodox, the national-religious, the national-ultra-orthodox. They pray the same, but their lifestyle, communities, politics, and world views can be quite different.
The most fanatical settlers come from the national-religious strain. They really are what anti-Israelis usually ascribe to all of israel: ultra-nationalist, combined with religious fervor, but not closed off enough and open to the worst elements of society who "rediscover religion". Dragging all of us along with their actions
> all too frequently they have an American accent. So thanks for that, I guess... /s
I'm Canadian, so *HOW DARE YOU, SIR*. ;)
I'm sorry you're suffering as a result of the crazies. Seems to be the case in so many countries these days, though the Middle East is especially screwed by them. Here's hoping we all see some peace and sanity sooner rather than later.
This is why I don't support the senseless killings by hamas as unprovoked. Israel created the hamas killings with their actions. Still hamas is a terror group...it's just that Israel is one too
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Past performance is no guarantee of future. Even Egypt improved from the 6 day war to Yom Kippur. 1 v all still takes chunks out of you, with victory assured.
The Palestinians have lost every engagement. But can still afford to continue. Israel can’t afford to be weakened, much less lose even 1 engagement.
On the contrary, the divide between Israel's military capability and the other ME militaries' capabilties is *even greater* today than it was in previous wars. That was the time before modern day technology, like phones and computers. And we all know how much more advanced Israel is in the technology department compared to the rest of the Middle East.
The Iraqi military was the largest in the world in 2003. It fell in less than one month
Multiple past performances all with the same result, humiliating defeat and Israel getting some more land.
Egypt won't even open up it's own borders with Palestine, they can sit back down and watch.
You are correct, Palestinians have lost but can still afford to continue, even converting water pipelines into rockets and now suffering for it. What Russia did in Checnya or China is doing to the Ugyers seems to be more effective than Israel's approach in terms of results, and not a single Islamic nation has a problem with it.
Israel & USA willing to bet that the exile or extinction of 2.3 million in Gaza. Will not draw Middle East in total war, yet again? Or the potential Israeli casualties fair price for victory.
Middle east has learned it’s lesson lol.
The last thing any middle eastern country wants to do is actually help Palestine at the cost of their own lives.
They don’t even want the refugees.
Maybe some fringe groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, but those can be purged fairly easily if needed with the US positioned in the area.
After the bombing runs. It’s IDF marching into a kill box, almost 2 decades in the making with hostages at stake. Popular protests will flare up across the Middle East. As the invasion footage trickles out of Gaza.
Yes, after the bombing runs the army will go door to door until every perpetrator is executed and every hostage recovered. The world will bitch and moan and then sit back down because Israel has nukes now. So other than some terrorists ground nobody will do anything material.
#####	
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> # [Three Palestinians killed by Israeli forces, settlers in West Bank - agency](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/Reuters logo)
>
>
>
> CAIRO, Oct 11 (Reuters) - Three Palestinians were killed by gunfire from Israeli forces and settlers in Qusra village near the West Bank city of Nablus on Wednesday, the Palestinian official news agency said.
>
> Eleven other Palestinians were wounded by live rounds, according to the Red Crescent.
>
> Earlier in the day, Ghassan Daghlas, the acting governor of Nablus, told Reuters that Israeli settlers had attacked the village located south of Nablus, and fired live bullets at citizens and ambulances in the place.
>
> Reporting By Ali Sawafta; Writing by Moaz Abd-Alaziz; Editing by Alex Richardson and Bernadette Baum
>
> Our Standards: [The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.](https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en/about-us/trust-principles.html)
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