I'm shocked - this seems genuinely competitive. Angles are about equal to the bronco sport, better ground clearance than the BS, a proper transmission cooler and 4.11s, even longer travel shocks apparently. Subaru actually tried.
Still a shame about the CVT, but it seems like they really made an effort to make it at least more capable.
The transmission is still such a non-starter though. Forget the fact it doesn't have a manual (which would be incredible in any Wilderness trim), it has the worst transmission you can buy.
The transmission is fine. I swear all the people on this forum have never actually driven a Subaru CVT before, or only have in situations totally detached from the target use case.
what I don't understand is people on reddit defending CVT constantly, like its your job to defend cost cutting measures. CVT can be totally fine for daily driving, but anything enthusiast related on or off road and it falls flat on its face.
They're smooth as hell. Anyone who can't see the appeal of one on a road trip, much less a daily commute, is just an old man yelling at the sky.
It's so nice to not deal with jarring one- or two-gear downshifts on the interstate when using cruise. Dipping in further is equally smooth.
I love the the one in our Outback, and the Sentra we just rented was nice as well, linear and well-behaved. Especially so when compared to most modern slushboxes, which are loathe to downshift, so you continue to give more gas until they're suddenly dropping six gears with a jerk and are at redline. Or some of the DCTs I've driven, such as an awful Jetta and the well-known Ford Focus.
Not everyone wants a manual. Not everyone wants to go offroad. I'll admit, it's a little odd that Subaru's just chained themselves 100% to the CVT without another option for the Wilderness versions (surely Toyota could help), but saying CVTs have no benefits other than fuel economy is silly.
Agree 100%
If you want an econobox that just works, gets you 40mpg plus, why not get a CVT? Sure is a lot better than those janky four speed autos that some cars still came with. On the highway the CVT is great for cruising (can’t hear the transmission drone in these cars because the noise deafening lets the highway noise come in anyway) while you get great fuel efficiency.
I absolutely love our Outback’s CVT on long trips…it just disappears into the background, no jolting downshifts, just smoothness. Works great in town, too. Like you say, fun is fine but I just want quiet comfort 95% of the time.
It’s an MPG pox upon vehicles. I don’t get people rushing in to defend it, either. I think some people just get a feeling of superiority when being contrarian.
It’s not even the performance to me. It’s just such a terrible driving feel/sound.
> It’s just such a terrible driving feel/sound
That kinda answers your own question.
There *vast* majority of cars aren't performance-oriented, where driving feel or sound simply doesn't matter. It's a lifted Crossover with the same ground clearance as a Bronco. It was never gonna be any kind of vehicle where driving feel was an important factor.
A CVT would not be acceptable in a RWD roadster - that doesn't mean it couldn't work well in other applications.
This sub has massively altered in the past 5-7 years. It used to be actual enthusiast sub. Now it’s most defended vehicle is the rav4 hybrid. People constantly defend cuv mpg and say the trucks haven’t gotten larger. There’s like 8 adamant user that will have 30 comments in a thread. I’ll leave them nameless
Yeah, most replies to my comment is how efficient and how convenient cvts are for commuting and long trips. Those are the least of my concerns as car enthusiast.
WRX being offered with CVT was the worst idea ever. It just opened this trim to people who don't really care.
I like how Honda gatekeeps their enthusiast models, like Si and CTR with being available in manual only.
Wrxs have had autos since 2008. they just were not marketed very much. The wrx has actually had a CVT since the VA. people just decided to rage this time
Even daily driving. My sister owns a 2017 Crosstrek. Her transmission was replaced this year at 35k miles. It's a known issue. The good thing was that Subaru replaced it but they didn't cover the labor for adding transmission fluid.
No, Subaru CVT reliability is generally fine.
Yes, some fail, and some people like your sister get unlucky, but it's not like the Nissans that fail left and right. It's a perfectly reasonable transmission.
I drove a brand-spanking new fully-loaded (minus the turbo) Subaru Legacy as a rental a few weeks back.
The CVT in that car was better than most, but that's like saying I only got mild diarrhea rather than the uncontrollable, watery pants-ruining torrent that is a Nissan CVT.
Sure, it didn't drone excessively and was typically in the right ratio, but it sapped what little responsiveness that motor already had. I'd rather have a regular slushbox.
I have. My wife has one and I really don’t like it. You are right about its target use though. People who buy subarus with cvts generally don’t care/ don’t drive them to a point where they notice its terribleness. I fully acknowledge that I am not their target market though, i just like to bitch because i used to own an sti and am sad about the way subaru is going.
> i just like to bitch because i used to own an sti and am sad about the way subaru is going.
subaru, heard in the distance, laughing on top of their piles of money.
You have it backwards... Subaru is the one that is heard in the distance, because they're laughing so loudly from the high ground.
I'm in the market soon and the trans is the #1 reason that I'm not considering another ScoobyDoo. I'm figuring that my 2024 Land Cruiser allocation will make for a fine substitute for my OBXT.
Their CVTs are fine for like 90% of people. Not for me, but for the likes of my mother who tops out at 85 km/h on the highway and never overtakes, it is great. Fuel economy and comfort are top notch.
There's a very strong chance I'd too have bought a Wilderness or another OBXT early last year if it wasn't for the CVT. Meh, I guess the brand managers know what they're doing and it doesn't include people like me.
That’s awesome! It’s definitely a great package that offers something that no other competitor does, and that goes double for the Wilderness specifically.
*Anyways, excuse me while I go and die on this hill over here…”
The flappy paddles and fake transmission ratios on the CVT in manual mode will keep the wheels spinning with traction control off. I’ve never had any issues with mine in deep snow or mud, just gotta keep some interna going
> The transmission is fine.
A yugo is fine too. There's nothing wrong with wanting something different.
The stick shift was the only material reason to buy a crosstrek. Its just another generic compact crossover now. You can get better specs from pretty much every other brand.
My wife has a 2015 Forester. I just think of the throttle as something that changes the torque input to the transmission rather than changing the RPM. Harsh ride and noise interior are worse for me than the CVT.
I've driven plenty of Subaru CVTs in the Forester, Outback, and CrossTrek. It's better than others, but it still feels like a damn rubber band.
I'm in the market soon and the trans is the #1 reason that I'm not considering another ScoobyDoo. I'm figuring that my 2024 Land Cruiser allocation will make for a fine substitute for my OBXT.
I have to agree, I use a 2021 Forester as a daily driver and work vehicle, which often involves "light offroading" getting up some poorly maintained, steep, washed out, access roads for radio tower sites.
On road, I find it a pretty boring but functional transmission, I came from a DCT VW Golf and definitely prefered the way that transmission "feels". However, "off road" when I'm slowly crawling up a road at around 5-10 km/h, the CVT is way smoother and predicable than the traditional automatic in the F150s I was driving before. I always found the transmission in the F150s hunting between first and second, with neither quite being "right" but the Forester's CVT feels like it's smoothly finding the right ratio for what I need. The gimmicky hill descent control actually does a pretty respectable job keeping the SUV at a steady pace down the shitty roads I find myself on.
It's not really far off from what my ATV's CVT does.
I've driven a crosstrek before when interested in possibly buying it and I hated CVT. Crossed it off my list as an option and that's a bit sad since there's almost nothing else that really competes with it imo. I've also driven other vehicles with CVTs and I've never had a good experience with them. The horrendous engine drone and general feeling of the transmission under acceleration, such that it was, was just not enjoyable at all.
I get that Subaru *had* to remove the manual to meet CAFE standards (same reason they nixed the STI) because they are a smaller brand compared to Honda or Toyota.
But the manual in the crosstrek, even though it kinda sucked, was the number 1 differentiating factor in the marketplace for it.
It wasn’t a big niche, but they had it cornered. AFAIK, no other CUV came with a 6MT and AWD.
It's not great, for sure, but my understanding is that the majority of the CVT problems off-road come down to heat, so if the trans cooler does its job well enough, it should be about as competent as any given not-amazing auto.
It’s not the performance, it’s the feel. Feels gross driving a CVT. The feeling, the whine… I got rid of my previous car, an accord, after a year because I couldn’t stand the CVT. Wife’s Subaru is equally displeasing.
CVTs are nice in tractors, it’s incredible for going 0.01 MPH or using a loader etc
the lower pitched whine of a massive unit isn’t as bad either
still a pain in the ass when it comes to regular use tho, i’d much rather pull stuff with gears
The Mazda 3 Turbo is like $5k less than the WRX GT, even though it has a much, much nicer interior and almost identical performance. The Subaru AWD is probably better if you’re off-roading (although it’s the part-time AWD with the CVT so it might not even be that great), and the WRX gets the adaptive suspension, but that’s it. Having test driven both of them, the Mazda 3 is so much more fun to drive. The transmission is much better and so is the steering and road feel. The WRX has better visibility. Pretty crazy it’s $5k more.
No. There's a section of reddit that thinks a clutch pack attached to a drive shaft means the car is part-time even if under normal operation the clutch is never wide open.
The WRX doesn't have the standard CVT setup anyway. The WRX auto gets the VTD setup which is a 45:55 split planetary differential with a lockup clutch pack.
And to be pedantic it's still an on-demand system on the regular models. If the barrier is only 'rear axle is engaged at all times' than virtually every AWD system is full time because manufactures load the rear constantly to improve smoothness and reduce engagement time.
Mazda uses a traditional FWD layout, which means they have access to transmissions, PTUs, and diffs that don't require them to spend lots of R&D money to make them work because they can be sourced from suppliers who sell to other companies, unlike Subaru's layout. It's a downside of Subaru's symmetrical, integrated AWD layout (they have to develop their own stuff at higher cost).
This car ain't made for wheeling. It's made for dirt roads, the occasional double tracks, and some bumps on way to the to the trailhead. I don't think the CVT is going to stop anyone from doing that.
Yea sadly I'm seeing, CVTs aren't my thing at all from the one time I've driven one, too artificial feeling for my tastes. The market is obviously there tho despite the lackadaisical transmission
Lol, the price delta, per unit, on a bulk order of OEM transmissions (CVT vs. geared) is in the hundreds of dollars. “Affordability” is not the driver of their decision, especially in this market. It’s a fleet MPG thing.
>Lol, the price delta, per unit, on a bulk order of OEM transmissions (CVT vs. geared) is in the hundreds of dollars.
That's a lot of money for an entry level car with 6 figures sales figures. At a $100 difference (noting that you said hundred**s**) that would be $15 million across the 155k Crosstreks they sold last year.
Just because you’re not their target demo doesn’t eliminate the fact that other people outside their target demo, that aren’t pulling the trigger on a Subaru because of the cvt, would have otherwise purchased a geared Subaru. I’m not their target demo, but I was interested in the legacy until I saw it was cvt. My wife loves Subaru, probably IS their target demo, but now knows about CVT’s and probably won’t purchase another. The internet is filled with people that dislike CVT’s, I don’t know why it’s so hard for some people to swallow the fact that more people would buy Subarus if they didn’t have CVT’s.
I didn’t say nobody ever anywhere would be turned off by a CVT, I said I don’t at all think the small amount people that are won’t be offset by the development costs. It’s not like Subaru is the only player using CVTs either.
Well they could just bump the price $200 and pass it on to the consumer, I doubt many prospective Subie owners would change their mind on a $200 price difference.
But the reality is that they have market research analysts crunching numbers and putting together way better data sets than us forum weenies are. At the end of the day, most people dont even know what a CVT transmission is and couldn't tell you whether they like them or dislike them.
The average subaru buyer these days sees decent gas mileage, full time AWD, cheap purchase price, carplay / android auto, and an earthy-crunchy vibe. That's it. They don't care if it's a CVT or a slushbox. Most of them wouldn't even recognize the difference. Those of us who are sitting here armchair quarterbacking STILL wouldn't buy one if it had a conventional auto.
> Well they could just bump the price $200 and pass it on to the consumer, I doubt many prospective Subie owners would change their mind on a $200 price difference.
It wouldn’t be $200 a unit to Subaru because raw materials unit costs don’t include the R&D to develop it in the first place, retool the factory or contract it out to someone else, then test and validate into the actual vehicles.
It’s nowhere near as easy as throwing a few hundred at the MSRP especially if you’re a company with a nonstandard longitudinal FWD layout that can’t use off the shelf solutions.
I agree you're spot on, I was just following the previous example. But to piggyback on the point, when the time comes that Subaru builds a new tranny, if they put their budget into a conventional auto instead of a cvt I think it's reasonable to say that the total cost difference doesn't have to be that significant.
> It’s nowhere near as easy as throwing a few hundred at the MSRP especially if you’re a company with a nonstandard longitudinal FWD layout that can’t use off the shelf solutions.
This is what people underestimate.
No other company has a transmission with the center differential/transfer case and the front diff integrated into the same casing. You can't just slap a ZF8 into a Subaru and have AWD.
I think they have getting their engines to be as efficient as similar sized inline engines, for some reason. So they need the cvt to keep their fleet mpg above water. And they are stuck with the configuration in all of their platforms. I think they are hoping to skip straight to a phev or electric in the next engine generation.
My brother in law had one and it turned into metal confetti at 1800 miles on the odometer. He lemon law'd that shit and bought a car with a proper transmission instead.
I had a Nissan with a CVT in high school and it needed 3 complete replacements before we got rid of it at 3 years and 56,000 miles.
I just can’t get past the appearance. While sure, the plastic might serve a purpose, it looks cheap and awful. And realistically these vehicles will hit a trail 2% of their lifetime, so appearance is a big factor to me which I think the BS blows this out of the water with
To be fair, Crosstreks on trails are much more common than new Jeeps. Subarus in general are very popular camping vehicles. I have to agree with you on the styling, it’s just not for me.
It’s true in my experience with the caveat that those “trails” are hiking trailheads and not 4WD/rock crawling trails. As a Subaru owner myself I can’t for the life of me understand why people buy them for the latter purpose.
I guess we could argue the semantics of the word "trail" in the context of off-roading. I don't call a maintained dirt road a trail. That's... a road. And specifically speaking FRs in the various National Forests... they're graded. And I wouldn't use "trail" to describe any of the maintained levels as trails. Really I'd reserve trail for the unmaintained, natural surface FRs.
That's part of the thing to me. I see this meme about new Jeeps not being used off-road. I will always question where the people stating such things are going off-road. Because when I go off-road Jeeps are overwhelmingly the most common vehicle, then the various Toyota BOF models, and then other trucks. And a healthy mix of that are new vehicles at that.
I suspect the majority of people that claim people don't use new jeeps for off roading don't actually go off roading themselves. While I'm sure the majority of new jeeps don't get taken off road, they are still the most common vehicle you see on trails.
You’re absolutely right and I agree with everything you said, but I suspect (and I could be wrong) that OP meant they see more Subarus at the [parking lot for the hiking] trail and not off-road trails.
And in any case, I don’t think Subarus are the vehicles for trails, and this article about sums up my thoughts on the subject: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/cars-trucks/how-to-modify-crossover-vehicle-off-road/
But for getting 4 people to pretty much any trail[head] in comfort and getting 25mpg on the way there, it’s hard to do better than a Subaru or equivalent crossover.
subarus are all over the west coast. Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, etc. Any time i go camping or backpacking easily 50-60% of the cars are subarus.
I totally believe this... However that is definitely not how I'd use the word "trail" when talking off-road. Those hiking trailheads and designated campgrounds are largely reachable via maintained dirt roads. Key word being maintained.
To me this is a bit like using the word "hike" to refer to walking a dirt path in a park.
i'm not sure how loosely the person you're responding to was using the word "trails". for full on off roading i agree i'd expect to see more jeeps than subarus
With the Global Chassis or whatever they call it, there's really not much more room they can get out of it. The interior is to the limit and IMO pretty good for the total footprint of the car.
What I don't understand is why I am on my third Impreza Sport because the rail mounts on the driver's seat in the Crosstrek make it so I can't see out the cabin. It's the only Subaru I have issues fitting in.
I disagree.
While the BS styling is really good, and I'm happy to see that SUVs are moving away from the minivan-derived look, I actually like the Crosstrek, and I've been driving a Jeep with black fender flares for close to 25 years without it ever causing me pain. Body colored ones would be trashed because I actually use it as a Jeep, and I would do the same with a Crosstrek.
CVT is great for most people. It is much smoother than a TC Auto and also much more efficient. It may not be ideal for rock crawling, but that's not what 99.9% of buyers will do with these vehicles.
i normally hate CVTs but my wife has a 21 crosstrek sport with the fb25 (same motor as the wilderness) and that little thing is stout and rips itself out of sand pits and over dunes with ease. never once felt like the transmission was holding it back. subaru builds a solid CVT.
It's pretty capable, relatively cheap, and in roughly the same segment as the Crosstrek. The sport is also more expensive than the Crosstrek but in most trims more capable. This package on the Crosstrek specifically competes roughly with the badlands trim of BS and costs 5k less.
It would, and the Crosstrek is a segment lower - but for an outdoorsy-ish young person on a budget who wants to get something for fire roads and daily driving, they're probably gonna cross shop both, along with the Forester and probably an old Tacoma too.
Is the AWD tuning fixed for off road? I've seen these on off road towing YouTube channels, stuck in low traction off road situations like sand, where the car cut power entirely.
My understanding is that's done usually in the name of preventing transmission slip for fear of overheating. The trans cooler should help with that meaning you get less of those full-kill moments. The Subaru X mode should also help somewhat versus a base model without it.
The thing about CVT’s is the average person doesn’t know the difference or care, the WRX is weird bc it is more of an enthusiast car but it kind of makes sense in something like this.
The problem is a regular crosstrek can do 90% of what the wilderness can do, is cheaper and more fuel-efficient. Most people who buy crosstrek do nothing more than forest service road, which is probably doable for small suvs with AWD. For any serious off-roading, a beat up, lifted XJ cherokee or 4 runner is much better and much cheaper.
This is the reason why I can't do Subaru anymore. Especially in the mountains.
*"I genuinely felt a bit concerned on uphill passing areas about whether I had enough momentum to pass a semi truck. The drivetrain is just fine when cruising, but overtaking on the freeway will require a little forethought."* \- Victoria Scott/R&T
I never understood the need for motorized seat gizmos. Extra weight, complexity and cost. My BMW car had them and it was a set-and-forget thing with motors just going along for the ride.
It's 2023 and Subarus still *"require a little forethought"* before passing on the highway. Wow...
Everything else aside, how can an automaker still be putting such anemic power trains in their vehicles?
They're all 16 years old. I remember when the first STi's came to the US 20- years ago. I had a friend with a stock 2005. They were expensive, and at the time could compete with V8's. Technology moved on. I guess Subaru decided there was no point in trying to compete.
For what it's worth, I have in the household an Outback XT with the FA24DIT engine and the CVT. It's not bad for what it is. The regular Crosstreks and Outbacks are slow, but the demographic who buys them don't care.
But guess what, nobody cares.
The crosstrek is still one of subarus best selling cars monthly. It sells like hotcakes in the northeast. People don't need tons and tons of power.
Lots of talk here about the OFF-ROAD capabilities of the Wilderness model. How does the Wilderness compare ON-ROAD to the other Crosstreks? Does it have more body roll? Noiser? Slower? Less MPG? Harsher?
I could deal with the CVT and shitty infotainment screen, but I really wish it had even slightly more power. I don't want to question if I'm going to be able to pass a semi. This car with the WRX engine + manual trans would be great.
Also, the front end looks better than the normal Crosstrek thank god, but I wish it had boxier/more angular headlights to match the rest of the car.
This is sounding a bit too confident. I don’t know if Subaru has any idea on how to survive the EV era without their boxer engines and symmetrical AWD as most EV’s from other manufacturers will have that technology if they include two ‘motors’. Unless Subaru makes a much more affordable dual motor EV off road capable car without luxury features as they do now. Maybe that’s it haha
Does anyone buy a Subaru these days for the engine? I’ve specifically not considered Subaru for my last 2 cars because the engines are so outdated and anemic.
>This is sounding a bit too confident. I don’t know if Subaru has any idea on how to survive the EV era without their boxer engines and symmetrical AWD as most EV’s from other manufacturers will have that technology if they include two ‘motors’. Unless Subaru makes a much more affordable dual motor EV off road capable car without luxury features as they do now. Maybe that’s it haha
I forget my car has one all the time. No one that buys them cares tbh
I buy for the AWD. Not that many daily driver cars have AWD(true all the time awd) and with the snow and my uphill gravel driveway, not many things past a truck handle it well. I also bought the 3.6 so it has actual torque. The amount of mail man and Amazon drivers that my driveway has taken is too many, and it wasn't even winter. Car was also 30k with all the bells and whistles. For a daily, it's pretty good.
Wife has a 2022 Forester Wilderness (and previously a terrible 2018 Impreza), can confirm the engine is just ok, though the 2.5L is geared well enough on the Wilderness to "get up and go" more than I expected after living with the absolute shit 2.0L in the Impreza.
The offroad performance is for real though. We're big hikers/campers so go down some fairly rough logging roads and such, no problems to report.
Same, I have a friend that lives somewhat in the woods and actually needed something like the Forester Wilderness (2023 is his model year) to be able to deal with the snow. He's very happy with it and can go over a lot more snow than what he expected, with great traction.
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I love my 3.6, but I definitely agree with you overall. They gave me a 2.0 Crosstrek as a loaner once and I drove it on I-5 between LA and SF and managed to get *worse* MPG with it than my Outback because it struggled so hard to maintain freeway speeds and sounded like an angry lawnmower doing it.
The XTs are nice and it’s unfortunate they haven’t made their way down the lineup.
Come on! Thats simply not true.
Their WRX engine is new! And has *checks notes* the exact same 0-60 numbers as their old Wrx.
But at least it gets *checks notes* the exact same or slightly worse mpg than the old engine.
Im being slightly facetious here but still
I think its important to acknowledge that in the CVT-era of Subaru that their AWD system isn't anything special mechanically than the vast majority of the competition. Its basically all programming and a large driving factor there is the marketing benefit it offers.
Subaru can survive going forward by continuing to do what they do. Utilitarian and rugged designs. Making AWD standard across all models and trims (minus BRZ, obviously). Baking in above average ground clearance.
Just look at the ICE landscape. Nearly every CUV now has a "off-road" trim level now that's designed to steal that Subaru market. And several of those exceeded Subaru's off-road capabilities. But Subaru, when they're not being hammered by supply chain issues, is still doing fine. Its about knowing your customer and designing to them.
You keep saying this in thread after thread, providing no concrete evidence of the inferiority of on-demand AWD systems, despite there being countless tests online of Subaru ATS AWD being objectively worse in many situations.
Subarus being full time AWD **means absolutely nothing in 2023** regarding performance in adverse conditions. In fact, what you're really left with is additional drag that eats up fuel economy for no appreciable increase in performance. Modern slip-and-grip AWD systems can react to differences in wheel speeds **in 5 milliseconds**. You are a liar if you say that's not fast enough.
I'm sure you know more than the actual engineers and companies that continue to provide these services.
If part time AWD is as good as full time awd, then why does Subaru and Audi still offer full time AWD through Symettrical AWD and Torsen. Why doesn't Subaru of America or VAG just move to only using part time AWD.
It's simple, because they know that Full time AWD is far more predictable. If I floor it in a Subaru, I know that all my wheels will be getting power.
A company doesn't just include something for the hell of it.
>I'm sure you know more than the actual engineers and companies that continue to provide these services.
Companies do a lot of things for a lot of reasons, and especially when it comes to technologies that have been around for a long, long time, "because xyz is better" is definitely not at the top of the list in terms of priority.
> If part time AWD is as good as full time awd, then why does Subaru and Audi still offer full time AWD through Symettrical AWD and Torsen.
Well first of all, neither of these companies have a single car in their current lineups that utilize a torsen-style ATB diff.
Regarding "Symmetrical AWD", that's a trade name for specifically Subaru's design of using equal length half shafts. It'd be like describing the LSD in a Dodge as a "posi".
Subaru and to some degree Audi keeps their respective longitudinal-based AWD systems for basically 2 reasons: heritage, and tech debt. They want to evoke their rally heritages so people feel like they're Stig Blomqvist or Colin McRae in the showroom. That's why Audi brands all of their AWD vehicles as "quattro", despite the AWD system in a A3 having absolutely nothing to do with the AWD system in an A6. That's why Subaru makes no distinction between their 4 ***very, very*** different AWD systems in any public facing materials. Most Americans don't even know that Subaru continues to sell FWD Imprezas elsewhere in the world.
It is extremely expensive on countless fronts for companies to ditch a design they've been using for a really long time. Changing the fundamentals of how a drivetrain works is barely even possible in 2023, when doing new stuff is harder and more expensive than ever. Subaru clearly doesn't really care about the performance market anymore, given the death of the STI, and how warmed over the VB is. However, in an alternate universe in which they did, and if they wanted to do something way more performant as a total package, you bet your ass a large number of the engineers working there would push for an AWD system that didn't necessitate the engine being hung out forward of the front axle, which gives Subarus the worst weight bias of any AWD cars in the industry. Hell, the need to be driving all 4 wheels all the time basically goes out the window when you can achieve something better than >60% of the weight in the front.
>If I floor it in a Subaru, I know that all my wheels will be getting power.
Lmao, you only think you know that because you don't understand how drivetrains work. All Subarus made today have open front and rear differentials. If you lose traction on 1 or more wheels, and put your foot down, in that instant, those wheels with traction are definitely not getting power. The only reason they ever do get power is because the brakes are being actuated with software.
Basically, [have fun not going anywhere in your Subaru, even with "X-Mode"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE4PeX97hQo&t=163s).
Here's the guy next to you [in his Mazda](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihbNtRzaCaQ&t=144s).
No, all Subarus aren't made with open center differentials. That's a bold faced lie. You've proven you have absolutely zero clue about their drivetrains with this insidious rant of yours.
Most of the Subarus on the road use a multi disc clutch that is controlled by a solenoid to increase or decrease output to the rear drive. This is usually from about 10-50% depending on the need that the system requests. The front section is not clutched at all and works even if the entire rear assembly is gone. It's VERY different from and "open differential" that would use spider gears to transfer power to the wheel of least resistance. That's mainly found in the front and rear axles. In a symmetrical AWD system, those axles are the same allowing for a more equal distribution of weight across the drive line allowing for a more equal distribution of power. All Subaru drivetrains will have power being delivered to at least two wheels thanks to the rear clutch assembly. There have been quite a few different designs, but the majority of them today are the multiplate clutch setup which usually restricted you to a 60/40 split.
If you want real testing you need to look at diagonal spin and roller tests. For example.
The design may be dated, but it works. And with today's advancements with their traction control and assist features they're still one of the better units on the road. If that guy does "floor it", indeed at least one front and one rear will be receiving power, whether you care to believe it or not.
What's even funnier, in the video you linked even, the Mazda over does it and WILL disable AWD functionality when it overheats/over stresses. Subarus AWD doesn't in those same tests. They performed similarly, considering the nature of a roller style slip test. The worst part, if you go ahead and look up the angle tests the Subarus do not struggle where that same Mazda does.
Last but not least, the STi was discontinued. It happens. But the fact the VB WRX outperforms the VA STi stock for stock in just enough every category is enough to take a step back. The only thing missing (IMHO) from the VB WRX is the LSDs front and rear. The VB WRX also outperforms the Outback, Crosstrek, and even the CC on those same tests. You can even watch them as the same guy does them with a '22 MT. Now mind you, the WRX has a 50/50 when in manual form and the CVT(SPT) has a 45/55 split. So the SPT may perform the tests even better, I haven't actually dug that far as I don't much care for the SPT.
That being said, there's a reason Subaru doesn't massively rework their drivetrains. They are tried, true, and work. Audi also has a great AWD platform that is tried and true also. There's a reason they stand behind them with names like "Stig Blomqvist or Colin McRae", because they work, and they work well. Take the rally school Dirtfish for example. There is a reason they leave the drivetrains stock in their STi platforms.
> No, all Subarus aren't made with open center differentials. That's a bold faced lie. You've proven you have absolutely zero clue about their drivetrains with this insidious rant of yours.
Lmao, you’ve proven you can’t read. You’ve also proven that nothing else you’ve written is worth reading.
Subaru programs the system to send a nominal amount of power, like 10%, to the rear at all times. The thing is modern competitor systems can predict or detect slip and react so quickly that they're not in a disadvantage in situations where the AWD is needed. And when talking "off-road" they're either automatically putting power to the rear too or have a mode that will do that.
And since they're all so similar (bar a few exceptions) mechanically once slip happens they perform very similarly.
The really special systems are ones with unique mechanical hardware. Such as the Bronco Sport Badlands or Honda/Acuras with their iVTM/SH-AWD.
"This system employs a multi-plate transfer clutch that maintains a 60/40 front/rear torque split and uses a range of sensors to automatically adjust this split on-the-fly as conditions warrant, creating more predictable handling. The system that's linked to all Subaru models (excluding WRX) equipped with the Lineartronic® Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), the Active Torque Split AWD places the focus on ease of operation, fuel efficiency and reliability"
Per Subaru Canada.
Look at that marketing speak. The system is basically never actually at just 60/40.
Go watch a Subaru and it's competition on slip tests. It's not performing any better than the competition.
You are incorrect, the system maintains a 60/40 split and varies around that point at all times. You'd know this if you've driven one, the car handles very different to a FWD biased system.
[One test of many](https://youtu.be/0GpR5Ga8XXE?si=qATz85x0eX9VW4J6&t=174)
This is entirely marketing. Read what you're writing yourself. A system cannot both maintain a specific torque split ratio and also vary it. Let alone the other physical interactions on that system that influence that split. And this is especially true in a slip situation.
Subaru is physically using the same type of system as everyone else. Its a FWD based clutch pack.
This type of system physically cannot maintain a constant 60/40 split. It cannot.
> A system cannot both maintain a specific torque split ratio and also vary it
What?
[Toyota seems to disagree](https://youtu.be/EjYrHQ83mbM?si=2yLskkJY1wX9X8TD&t=75)
Yes Subaru uses a clutch pack, it's how they use it that makes it better than FWD biased systems.
The EV market is probably a decade away from providing an alternative to a Subaru that can do 500+ miles on a tank with real off road capability for less than $35,000. EVs are great commuters but not great at road trip/adventure. The best EVs for road trip/adventure are WAY more expensive than a Subaru and as long as people buy them, they have no incentive to make a cheaper long range EV.
Our forester does 500+ on the highway easy. 16.6 gallons x 30mpg = 498. We're typically doing 33-35mpg highway in the forester, the crosstrek should be as good or better.
Car and Driver did manage about 35 with a normal one, but the tires on this version drop the highway rating by 15% compared to that one.
Expect 28-30 for the Wilderness.
We are still a long way from that. EV off-roaders will not catch on just because of the range issue. You cant drive an EV 2 hours to a trailhead, romp around for another hour, go for a hike, then drive back 3 hours. That little journey is 6 hours of driving in a gas car, but would require two charging stops in an EV. Plus no oneis going to risk getting stranded. What youre talking about is another 10+years of battery tech development, minimum. Its not Subarus market.
I know it's their first model and all that, but holy shit what a disaster the Solterra is. It's by far their most expensive model *and* their worst. You're charging $15,000 more here (Canada) than an Ascent or Legacy for *that*?
Baffling
Yeah, but they're charging a lot more than Toyota is for the same damn product, which is well within their control. Even beyond the product itself, it has issues with pricing compared to other cars
bZ4x comes in a single motor fwd trim that isn't available on the solterra, like for like they're similarly priced. And yes its a fairly non-competitive EV, probably built for fleet average/compliance more than anything.
The EV era is nowhere close to being a hard reality yet. We simply do not have the large scale infrastructure or cost effectiveness to go the mile yet on EV’s, and I say this as someone invested into the EV sphere financially.
Subaru knows their audiences with these specific vehicles, much like how Ford acknowledges their Lightning sales are absolutely dwarfed by their regular F-150 sales and are basically a testbed to see if there may be business demand for local EV use.
Subaru offers the 2.4L turbo with the CVT in the WRX, Outback, and Ascent. Its absolutely doable in the Crosstrek mechanically. Its probably a function of what Subaru thinks they can charge for the Crosstrek (if they made a $40K Crosstrek people would lose their minds) and fleet fuel economy numbers. I've heard rumors the 2.4L turbo is coming to the Forester so that'd be nice at least.
These will get you out there on *a lot* of roads. Usually further than one's comfortable with.
You *will* go slower than vehicles with larger tires and more wheel travel, unless that vehicle is a two-door Jeep. A lot of people are fine with that.
You *will* get stuck if you're in a cross axle situation and lose momentum. A lot of people are never going to be in this position.
The butch styling is a massive turn-off for me. I don't want or need to advertise my personality to other drivers and this thing might as well be a Patagonia jacket or a paid of Oboz hiking shoes.
What vehicle in this class would you say is well styled? It seems like the “almost off-roader” SUVs/crossovers are all catered to the same almost-adventurer market.
> You will get stuck if you're in a cross axle situation and lose momentum.
I get wheels off the ground in my Crosstrek all the time. X-mode isnt as good as fully-locking diffs, but its better than just having a rear limited slip like was standard on 4x4s through about 2015. Ive been able to get through cross-axel situation in my crosstrek that would have stopped my tundra in its tracks.
I fail to see how X-mode/ATRAC/etc is better than a clutch LSD which they are designed to simulate. The LSD could only add capability vs an open diff, you can still apply all the same brake-based traction control tricks
> You will get stuck if you're in a cross axle situation and lose momentum.
I get wheels off the ground in my Crosstrek all the time. X-mode isnt as good as fully-locking diffs, but its better than just having a rear limited slip like was standard on 4x4s through about 2015. Ive been able to get through cross-axel situation in my crosstrek that would have stopped my tundra in its tracks.
> You will get stuck if you're in a cross axle situation and lose momentum.
I get wheels off the ground in my Crosstrek all the time. X-mode isnt as good as fully-locking diffs, but its better than just having a rear limited slip like was standard on 4x4s through about 2015. Ive been able to get through cross-axel situation in my crosstrek that would have stopped my tundra in its tracks.
The car that reddit doesn't understand.
This car will sell out like hotcakes.
Best in class visibility(you basically don't have blind spots).
Little to no markups(Subaru of America has been able to get rid of them)
Basically the only full time AWD crossover on the market.
Crazy amounts of space.
Relatively inexpensive.
Supporting a company that has a long history of supporting the LGBTQ community.
It doesn't need 270 horsepower, or a DCT, or a manual.
I've accepted that this sub doesn't understand how brands and models are marketed towards a certain segment of the population and the goal is to make money, not please the small enthusiast crowd.
Sure, but would it actually increase sales by a measurable amount outside of the dozen or so enthusiasts that actually have the money for a potential $40k Crossover?
Your not the target audience for this car then. And that's OK.
Having full time AWD with snow tires out here in the new England area is amazing. You will be passing $80k trucks.
It's not ideal for you... but it does take a little bit of time for your Maverick to recognize wheel spin, and start sending power around.
The crosstrek is instant.
Yes, it does. It gets info from sensors every 20 milliseconds and can fully engage AWD in a couple hundred milliseconds. I don't think that makes a difference in adverse conditions.
Imo, that's a superior option to the full-time AWD.
It has become the standard car in New England. Everyone has these things. The top comment on this thread currently claims that the Transmission makes this thing a nonstarter. However I don't think the people buying this know or care what a CVT is.
Its basically a spiritual successor to the old outback / outback sport which was mainly just a slow thing.
Car Reddit thinks every Subaru ever made before yesterday was an STI apparently lol im in the subie subs and its definitely an airspace of delusion some times. Every new WRX means dozens of “the outgoing WRX is the last real! WRX!” heard it with the VA and hatchbacks. The company is doing everything it can to make money while still offering unique sporty vehicles (see WRX and BRZ with more HP and torque than previous model). The concept of a boring A-B car is lost on them as well.
The lack of power scares me. I've been in many freeway merging situations where if my car wasn't as fast as it was I'd have been in proper trouble. For trails and such you probably don't need anymore power. How is their reliability?
That is my preference and I’m not delusional enough to think 180 HP is dangerous. Couldn’t care less what your number would be. Your take would just get shittier the lower you.
I was going to get one of these in the next weeks but ended up in a CX50 Meridian instead. Lots more tech and features in the Mazda and the lease payment difference was $50 bucks so it was a no brainer.
The Wilderness will definitely be more capable but I couldn't justify the extra off road ability compared to the better tech and powertrain of the Mazda. The Mazda will be good enough for me for any trails I do. This is based on leasing only as I wasn't interested in anything besides leasing.
I like everything about it this Wilderness, even the ridiculous styling but I don't like Subaru's tech. The new screen isn't that great and the cluster is from 2010.
I think its a great value if you like to go off the beaten trail a lot for camping, hiking etc and want something capable enough without terrible on road manners (Wrangler).
All told, and I say this as a longtime Jeep TJ owner and driver, this is perhaps more attractive for most real world use than the bloated JL is.
I see Crosstreks when I'm out bird hunting or mountain biking. They are great for anyone who wants a capable vehicle to access cool spots for fishing, rafting, camping, etc., but with mpg and passenger comfort more conducive to road trips.
A Wrangler is still a body on frame off roader, extremely capable and buildable. The Subaru is not something you'd want to use for hard-core rock crawling all day long, every weekend. But most Jeeps don't get beaten on that badly, either.
I love my TJ, but if we didn't already have it (and a Tacoma 4x4, and a Forester) the Crosstrek Wilderness is probably the one car I would get to do it all.
Yeah This sub is bashing it for its lack of offroad ability. But in reality its use case is driving up shit roads to trail heads without fucking your bumpers up. I drive the lower version of my car and my bumpers are fucked up from driving on those shit roads.
Yeah. We have a lot of hot springs, and some are many miles up rutted dirt roads that are no place for a stock Camry (though my friend uses hers, and gets stuck or blows a tire sometimes). But they're not up the Rubi Trail, either.
With a lifted TJ, a Tacoma SR5 4x4, and a Forester, I have a pretty good idea of the envelopes, pros and cons of these different approaches.
TJ: hasn't been built since 2006: newer Jeeps, even the 2 doors, are wider, longer, markedly less reliable, and pretty expensive. Of course, a good TJ will cost you a lot, even if it is 25 years old. I got mine new and just kept it. MPG sucks. Really easy to put a rack and a dirt bike on the back. With modern dual rate coil springs and gas shocks, the TJ is a lot more comfortable than people think, but it's not exactly a limousine.
Tacoma: holds a lot of stuff. Comfortable ride for long trips, especially with some aftermarket shocks, etc. Long wheelbase, for a Jeep guy. Yeah you can spend $$$, lift it and put on huge tires and not high center, but then your MPG gets even worse. It's a bit worse than the Jeep, with stock tire sizes.
Forester: Easy driving. You're high enough to see well but it's small enough to be easy to park in tight spots. Will go down crappy roads or drive in the snow with ease. Holds 4 adults and 3 dogs comfortably, as long as they're not Hafthor Bjornsson or English Mastiffs. Decent MPG. Effortless highway and city driving. Not for true Jeep trails.
As a former JK owner who drives a Subaru Outback you are 100% correct. Nothing that Subaru makes will ever compete off road with a Wrangler, however….. I’m a FORMER Jeep owner because 1: I found with a set of All terrains and a slight lift my Outback went everywhere I took my JK because i WASNT a hardcore rock crawler and 2: my Outback performed literally EVERYTHING else better, between tech, comfort, on road performance, fuel economy, reliability……..
I remember articles like this (https://www.iseecars.com/most-popular-new-and-used-cars-by-state-study) from a little while ago. The Crosstrek was the most popular car by new sales in VT in '21.
Saw one and while it would look so damn good at the REI parking lot, I cannot justify it being $35,000!! That’s as much as my Forester Wilderness which has more space and looks fantastic at the local Sprouts.
That being said, really wish Subaru would add a panoramic moonroof to the outback, it is comically small. Or at least a turbo to the forester.
I think Subaru urgently needs to give the Solterra the Wilderness treatment. It currently has nothing that meaningfully differentiates it from the BZ4X or any of its boring competitors. A Wilderness option would give the Solterra a distinct personality and maybe even drive an increase in conquest sales.
The Solterra is already selling more than supply and also word on the street is that Subaru is not particularly fond of the overall platform, meaning they are content with leaving it as is and putting all their effort into accelerating their own bespoke EV platform cars.
> already selling more than supply
Are they really? I feel like they've been sitting forever on the dealer lots around me. For $45-50k it doesn't seem very competitive.
It’s currently just a compliance car and just a toe dip in the water. They haven’t gotten serious about an EV launch yet, but they probably will soon. They lean on Toyota for this, who is ramping up their their EV, reportedly. Toyota has the capacity and capability, they’ve just been holding out for one reason or another.
Unfortunately, I don’t think this alone would be enough to make up for all the other things that differentiates it from its competitors, namely the paltry range and slow charging.
I don’t think it would make the Solterra a sales success, but a Wilderness package might encourage more people to choose it over the BZ4X, ID.4, and Ariya if they can charge at home, won’t use it for long road trips, and just need a car to get around town. A lot of people in the suburbs have that exact use case and would likely consider an EV that follows the rugged-looking trend.
Gorgeous photos in this article; the added cladding actually looks better to me. This actually seems like a really good value and practical package for the Crosstrek.
A subuaru Crosstrek with more ground clearance than the new LandCruiser/Prado, that's surprising.
Is r/cars still coping or can I call this an SUV now? Every time I say Subaru + SUV someone says "It's a wagon!" probably with tears coming from their eyes.
I don't care if has a cooler or not, I'll never get over it having a CVT in an off road vehicle. If Subaru could make a boxy 4wd I would love that. They seem so close to it, but they just can't get away from soft-roaders.
Test drove an Outback a few months back and I didn’t like the CVT. For all intents and purposes, it was fine. Cars are emotional purchases, for the most part, and the CVT had the emotions of a rock.
What I would give for the Crosstrek to get an STI version with the standard WRX engine and a manual.
It’d be a GR Corolla competitor and I don’t know how I wouldn’t buy it.
The crosstrek has been dead to me ever since they got rid of the manual transmission.
It's a shame because I really wanted one but couldn't get finances straight for a new one before the manual was gone.
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