California grid is 50% non fossil fuel based. And the other half is natural gas, which emits way less pollutants compared to gasoline from a car.
So yeah, much work is needed. But not nearly as much as you're implying
Will the grid hold when everyone pulls on their driveway and plugs in the car and turns on the airconditior. Can you go on a road trip without having range anxiety if you hit the rockies going east? You right. A ton of work needs to be done. What if we have a war and it knocks out the grids?
>Will the grid hold when everyone pulls in their driveway and plugs in the car
Most EV charging occurs at night when there's plenty of capacity.
> Can you go on a road trip without having range anxiety if you hit the rockies going east?
You're right, EV charging in midwestern red states is absolute shit.
>What if we have a war and it knocks out the grids?
If we have a war our refineries and pipelines are getting destroyed, which means ICE cars will be just as screwed as EVs.
ZEV is such a stupid acronym IMHO. Just call it EV, it's one of two where the E means Emission rather than Electric.
PZEV is basically a 0 evap emissions. A participation trophy (not to get political).
>A participation trophy (not to get political).
Are participation trophies even political?
I was a kid in the 90's and remember getting trophies at the end of a soccer season even though we had a very below average w/l rate, and that was very common since it wasn't super competitive.
I feel like they have been around longer than people think..
>I feel like they have been around longer than people think..
Lol they were, who do you think the ones that wanted them in the first place? Kids honestly don't even care about that stuff. You could give them a gold star sticker and they'd go crazy lol.
I mean that’s not true. It’s something for the kid to remember the season by. Kid knows they didn’t win anything but you still can hold good memories by getting something to remember it all by.
Because I don’t think everyone wants an EV. Most enthusiasts aren’t fans of EVs. I am possibly planning on going back to Tesla. We sold our model Y during the crazy pricing surge and made 8k from it. We went back to gas with an NX 300 but gas ain’t cheap and the model Y was a better overall car. With the price cuts, it’s tempting to go back to one.
>Because I don’t think everyone wants an EV
We talking becuese of politics or just becuese they don't make sense to for everyone?
Becuese 39% of Americans don't own their own homes. Add in those who live in places where you don't have access to garages and home charging the amount of people who EV's are viable for drops even more.
That's not even accounting for people who just don't like EV's. Which is a factor too.
I've been charging, for free, in apartments for the past 7 years. It's an option on a lot of apartment search sites. I've also been in 4 different properties in 2 different states in that time.
While it's still a bit of a pain, landlords are waking, and it's not even very costly for them.
He said model y.
Whats there to elaborate? Better features, better driving experience.
Literally every Tesla review from journalists and users say the same thing.
Lol oh no not your dreams!
Life isn't fair champ, just because you dream of having something doesn't mean you have a realistic chance of obtaining it.
Further, you've got more than a decade to make your dreams come true if the 2035 thing sticks (I am not optimistic)
Or maybe you'll come to your senses and realize an electric does everything you wanted that sports car to do without the hassles of an ICE (again, not optimistic)
disagree; i want a mustang gt500 or smthn, now way im hetting that anytime soon, and I want it new, not used, further evs do not do everything I want as no manual and no sound dude.
You can live out your fast and furious fantasy in a video game or something and get a wheel with a gearshift where you won't slaughter any crowds
As for sound just pump it through the aux
I don't understand why your desire to make a vroom vroom noise is more important than ensuring only a few hundred million humans die from climate change instead of billions
are u actually slow? buying a nice car doesnt mean ur gonna slaughter a crow, actually retarted. And sports car are such a small part of the car population that their effect on climate change is negilble, respectfully shut the fuck up ev fanboi.
thats not the point, these cars will always be availble used, I just wont be able to buy them new I want to be able to customize the car, and for it to have the newest engine and tech.
Technically it will still have the newest engine and tech, even used, once they're not being sold new anymore. Even now engines are effectively topped out on performance. Electric motors outperform in every way - wear and tear, torque, responsiveness - and while they're also a mature technology there's room for tuning when it comes to vehicle use.
And wouldn't you rather customize the car yourself with aftermarket parts like a real gearhead instead of "customizing" from 3 or 4 drop down menus on a dealer website like you're buying a Dell PC?
well who says I cant do both lol? people tune out tyeir new mustangs, camaros, wrxs anyway. And its not like im not gonna buy a ev, my main prioty is to get a manual Ice car andbaa secodbary ev like the taycan + audi etron
In 1800 the U.S. forbade citizens from participating in international slave trade and in 1808 it forbade the importation of new slaves
Slavery then existed for almost 60 more years, so 2050 seems optimistic if we start new sale bans in 2035. Refurbed engines and after market transmissions will be big business unfortunately
They’ll just start refusing to fix things that are so old. I got chastised at work for offering to do manifolds on 1999 crown Victoria for a customer. I overheard the service advisor saying I dunno if we can do that the vehicles kind of old. I chimed in and said yeah. I’m willing to do that. Got called into the office a half hour later and told the service advisors decide what jobs come in not me. They’ll have us all out of our gas cars soon enough.
Last year for charger and challenger. 24 will be the last year for the Camaro. Saying the ones that exist can be sold on the used market is a bad arguement. A lot of people don’t want someone else’s junk. They want a new car. Gas cars are 110% being taken away from us.
The VW bug and van left production a long time ago then get brought back and now the bug is gone again
Cars leave and return to production all the time
Not selling new gas cars != taking gas cars away from you
The next gen Challenger is sticking with ICE for years and years to come, not sure what you're talking about
https://moparinsiders.com/dodges-next-gen-muscle-cars-will-continue-to-have-internal-combustion-engines-ices/
Because the point isn't to "transition" to "cleaner" vehicles, it's to get poor people off the road to lessen traffic congestion.
Rich people are tired of dealing with traffic, and after trying to spend literal billions on stopgaps that don't do anything, they're just carrying out a slow burn long term final solution to it.
The UK also has a roadmap that traffic decreases to 60% of 2020 levels by 2030. They expect massive amounts of cars to be taken off the road. One way to do that is to just not have cars available to buy because of prohibitive government policies or rampant inflation.
Because there is no logic to the politicians who are pushing this crap. It's all for keeping their seats in government. They don't give two shits about "emissions."
California inarguably beat other states to the bat here, however it remains to be seen how and if infrastructure will catch up elsewhere. I don't see a world where Louisiana or Arkansas share similar EV-friendly framework.
Louisiana can't get its own infrastructure update to handle the increase in population we've had over the past decade, so a huge EV infrastructure will be a ways off. That said, areas like Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and surrounding towns are becoming increasingly EV friendly. Even in middle income areas, the adoption of BEV and PHEV has gone up dramatically enough that you begin to see them in regular traffic every day now.
Contrary to popular belief, we aren't all "muh truck" out here.
Not so fast. Louisiana barely grew 125k between 2010 and 2020. It lost 68k between 2020 and 2022. Louisiana is in population decline which is why legislature is desperate to focus on policy to get people to stay.
They also fixed an issue where non utilities couldn't retail electricity which should improve the charging station deployment.
> Louisiana barely grew 125k between 2010 and 2020. It lost 68k between 2020 and 2022.
You'd need to be more granular. While Louisiana is on a decline, major metropolitan areas like Baton Rouge have seen a steady ~1.5% increase year over year since 2019. No to mention the surrounding areas (Baker, Zachary, Denham Springs, Walker) where there has been a massive increase in new housing construction.
Our infrastructure isn't keeping up, currently, and any plans to update it will take years to actually be implemented. As is tradition around here.
All that said, It is definitely becoming more EV friendly in these areas, which I am all for.
I think you also have to consider the cultural difference between California and much of the South in this respect. Teslas and the like are prevalent, however maybe not enough for meaningful investment, yet.
From a governmental perspective, it entirely makes sense why a state like Louisiana - who heavily relies on oil/fuel tax to support state funds - would oppose electrification.
I am also from the south. Oil is not a culture but happens to be a large source of revenue and employment for many state & local governments. The idea of hampering an essential security behind much of Louisiana's debt will critically hurt both the state and its population.
From nc. Cotton, tobacco, and textiles have all been a major source of revenue and employment for my state at one point in its history.
Louisiana should invest in its people instead of saying “we can’t change because the economy”. We’ve heard that lie before. Towns in nc bought into it while others didn’t. The ones that didn’t are thriving. Can’t say the same about the others.
The change won’t be immediate, but it’s coming whether you want it to or not.
Removing personal sentiment from the matter, because in an ideal world I agree with you, I think the main issue is you have gas and fuel tax revenue pledged to debt with 25-50 year horizons. This is a key component in Louisiana’s ability to finance infrastructure projects, where the state lacks other sources of funds investors see as credit worthy. Saying they “can’t change because the economy” is more than a reflection on immediate job/economic opportunities, its moreso that they quite literally cannot phase out those revenues anytime soon if they want to continue to be able to issue parity debt at favorable rates. And when you tell an already poor and economically disadvantaged state that a key component of their funding is going to be forcefully phased out, it makes sense why that sentiment would be met with resistance.
I would push back on their claims.
Even with high demand last year, you didn't see job growth in that sector;
https://lailluminator.com/2022/03/19/high-fuel-prices-wont-bring-jobs-to-louisiana-because-companies-wont-drill-expert-says/
The share of GDP Louisiana gets from oil is down to under 20% and will keep falling.
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/994802529/louisianas-governor-wants-the-oil-and-gas-state-to-go-carbon-neutral
Again, no one is saying the adjustment has to be an immediate swing, but it will need to happen because the industry is making these changes with or without a given state's permission.
>And when you tell an already poor and economically disadvantaged state that a key component of their funding is going to be forcefully phased out, it makes sense why these changes would be met with resistance.
Yeah, I grew up on a small tobacco farm. I get that.
But it's not a justification, it's an explanation for their feelings.
It's a much much much bigger disservice to those people if a state fights inevitable change rather than sets its people up for future success.
I want to make a key distinction here. This is not a sentiment of populace “feelings” but more so a basis of how the state operates.
I’m not making a claim of any sorts, only suggesting reasoning behind sentiment. Respectfully, if you’re legitimately interested in reading about this, I think you will gain fair more insight from a Moody’s or S&P ratings report on key state issuers than an NPR article on the new governor. You will see that most indicate alternative sources are on the forefront of discussions, but to replace ~20% of the states GDP is huge and cannot be understated. You are absolutely correct in that the local oil industry has seen an overall decline in recent years, but you have to further consider the effects of federal legislation and population trends in assessing the situation at large.
You can also pull official statements for Louisiana debt and you will find lengthy discussions on economic makeup.
Make no mistake - continuing to heavily depend on gas tax to support state funding will undoubtedly hurt residents, but consider that today many see it as their only way forward when the state is already hanging on the thread in terms of its funding needs. And in that respect, I hope it can become a little clear how national agendas (I.e. electrification by 2035) can be seen as an attack on a state like Louisiana’s well-being. I think the truth of the matter is we need more inclusive and encompassing legislation rather than idealistic political checkpoints which aim to push agendas to the forefront of headlines. Idealism needs to be met with compromise and understanding.
>This is not a sentiment of populace “feelings” but more so a basis of how the state operates.
I think the two are interconnected. Legislators will not take action that is likely to get them primaried/voted out. This means balancing legislative priorities and public sentiment.
>Respectfully, if you’re legitimately interested in reading about this, I think you will gain fair more insight from a Moody’s or S&P ratings report on key state issuers than an NPR article on the new governor.
For sure, Moody's is a great resource.
"Louisiana has made significant progress “restoring its financial reserves and liquidity in recent years by structurally aligning revenue and spending, despite a generally declining trend and volatility in gas and oil production and unfavorable demographic trends,” Moody’s said in a news release. The demographic trends include slow population growth and low per-capita income."
https://apnews.com/article/louisiana-baton-rouge-john-bel-edwards-legislature-c6f2220a5f066fc086cdd7ab75b27763
And yes, 20% of GDP is a massive slice. It will be hard to adjust, and that's why I believe the state should begin the process ASAP. It'll be a slow churn.
We agree on 99% here. I honestly think there has been a LOT of compromise on climate related legislation. I understand why people feel their way of making a living is being attacked, again I grew up on a tobacco farm, but to continually kick the climate can down the road will cost FAR more vs tackling the issues proactively
>Oil is not a culture.
Thats unfortunately not the case. 2 years in Houston, Texas was enough to teach me that. The oil/energy industry very much has a culture around it, and people very, very devoted to it.
And when yet another hurricane comes and rips through Louisiana taking down the power grid, that EV will be nearly useless.
After Katrina we were at least able to siphon fuel out of boats and totalled cars. Or walk to the gas station and fill up a can.
What am I gonna do with an EV? Use my gas to power a generator to power up the EV?
You laugh but a small generator for charging an EV actually makes a ton of sense in an emergency situation.
Like why would it be weird to use a generator on your EV but not weird to power your house with a generator?
Sure it makes sense if you had no other way of preparing in advance.
It would be weird because that's unnecessary extra steps and a whole lot of time charging to make the vehicle operable. The electronics in your house require specifically electricity.
Some appliances are able to be gas, and in this case they should be just like the car if you want to still be able to use it and refill the gas at a store that sells it still.
Because when the storm tears up your house and your neighborhood, you won't be powering your house even if you could. You have to save every resource you can.
I don't get why this is even an argument. Using gas invariably requires less infrastructure to be operational and repairable. That's why the majority of the world still uses it in their homes, because they're in undeveloped countries, and that's what resources are like after a hurricane and floods rip through.
Even if you had 3 portable solar panels, what are you gonna do when they break?
The argument in my mind is pretty simple. I don't have a gas stove, I don't have gas heating. Those things require electricity, so does one of my vehicles.
If I can use a genset to power my appliances I don't know why it's weird to use it to power my car. It also uses electricity specifically.
Yes, just like my stove could be gas (hopefully propane because we don't want our natural gas to be shut off), it and my car could be gas. But they aren't, and a generator is perfectly capable of powering them in times of need.
Hurricanes are definitely extreme scenarios. In either situation, you're going to fill your gas car (and gas cans) or your EV and hunker down, or evacuate.
But for your random power outages, even extended ones - at any random time, an EV w/ home charging will probably have more range than a gas car for a spontaneous / random power outage.
Example:
Gas car, 350 Miles of Range, 50 mile round trip work commute, you fuel up Sunday night for your work week.
* Sunday Night - 350 Miles of Range
* Monday after work - 300 Miles of Range
* Tuesday after work - 250 Miles of Range
* Wednesday after work - 200 Miles of Range
* Thursday after work - 150 Miles of Range
* Friday after work - 100 Miles of Range.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
EV, 350 Miles of Range, 50 mile round trip commute, home charging:
* Sunday Night - 350 Miles of Range
* Monday after work - 300 Miles of Range
* Tuesday Morning - 350 Miles of Range
* Tuesday after work - 300 Miles of Range
* Wednesday Morning - 350 Miles of Range
* Wednesday after work - 300 Miles of Range
etc, etc, etc.
Some home chargers can replenish 50 miles of range per hour. If you get home at 6 PM with 300 miles of range, your car will be back at 350 miles of range again at 7 PM, and sit full all night long.
In the example above, the EV never falls below 300 miles of range, or 85.7% Full. With the gas car, you'll only be above 300 miles of range for the first 24 hours after you refueled your car. The other 144 hours of the week, the EV will have a higher range than the gas car at any random time. The ability to "refuel" an EV at home, every night, and start every morning with a full charge is underrated.
Some EV's like the IONIQ5 and others even support Vehicle-to-Load, which allow you to run power outlets off of your car. IONIQ5 can offload up to 3600 Watts of power.
Even if you want to keep your 400 watt fridge, 20x 3 watt LED light bulbs, couple of 10W cell phone chargers, maybe even 100-150 watts for an electric blanket to keep warm, 60 watts for a TV, that's 700 watts combined. The IONIQ5's smallest battery, 58 kWh can maintain that load for 78 hours. Nearly three days. The larger battery (77.4 kWh) can do it for 110 hours, 4.5 days. If you're used to running a gas generator, more than welcome to, but it's a nice backup option.
Policy [discussion is welcome](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My grandparents have never left for a single storm and refuse to ever. Life isn't too bad without electricity or A/C tbh. But I'm also a wilderness nut.
The hardest thing to give up is transportation. At least in the US.
I got my Tesla when I still lived in LA, it basically paid for itself in terms of gas, my RT will be traded for a EV Charger. As the tech field creeps back to California and leaving remote behind, I struggle knowing as I move back in June that my V8’s are about to become the bane of my existence. A $9 trip to McDonald’s for a combo will now cost $7 in gas in these bad boys. California is the one state where EV’s is the only way. It’s nice to see this happen ahead of schedule.
I lived in Montebello, drove to Santa Monica for work, it’s not that far but all the idle-ing ran up the gas. The 6.4 Charger I had at the time would go through 3-4 gallons a day. When I switched over to the Tesla one charge would last me almost 2 weeks
Big powerful V8 uses lots of fuel. Duh. Those cars aren't designed to deliver great fuel economy. And I'm sure you knew that going into purchasing it. With that being said, there *is* lots of middle ground between a Charger/Challenger 6.2L/6.4L and an EV. Plenty of ICE cars get respectable or great gas mileage. But if the cost of gas alone is hurting you financially to the point where you can't afford a certain car, then that's a whole other discussion.
Might not ne directly related, but a Tesla beats every v8 on a red light without having high fuel consumption.
I drove my performance like a sports car. Floored whenever I had the change with 21 kwh/100km on average. If you have to pay 15 cents a kwh, that's 3 bucks for 100 km for a 3.5 seconds car with more than 500 hp.
I've driven a Model 3 and Model S before. I know how stupidly quick they are. But there's more to a car than just acceleration.
BTW, I don't understand kwh as a unit of measurement. It's just something I don't get.
Think of it as a volume. Your gas car has a tank that can fit 60 liters or 20 gallon. Your battery in an EV has 80 kwh as a "volume". If you use 20 kwh per 100km, your battery is empty after 400 km.
Gotcha. I just haven't surrounded myself with it too much, so it's quite foreign to me. I'm assuming the kwh rating on EV batteries are improving over time, as modern EV's are still sorta in the "beta phase". I have read that Toyota is working on solid state battery tech, which is better than what's currently available?
Solit state is different. Has some advantages such as fire resistance and higher energy density.
Toyota is working on it, so is Volkswagen. Mercedes is already using them in their e-citaro busses. CATL, world's largest battery manufacturer is also working on it.
In general, the kwh of evs could go up, but they dont. For most use cases 60 to 100 kwh is plenty. So instead of putting larger batteries into cars, the cars get cheaper
I mean, if you just look at cars. Obviously trains are much safer. But if you just look at cars, evs are the safest and least likely to catch fire. That's not debatable
No, I'm not talking about other forms of transportation.
Yes, EV's are less likely to catch fire than ICE cars. I agree with that. But EV battery fires burn hotter than gas fires, and they're harder to put out. And with EV's having electronically activated doors to open them instead of being mechanical, that can pose a huge risk when they fail...making it a serious issue when trying to open the doors from the outside in the case of a rescue. So when a fire *does* happen, it's potentially a lot more dangerous. And that's a fact.
>And with EV's having electronically activated doors to open them instead of being mechanical
That's not an EV thing. That's a car thing. Doors are completely unrelated to the drivetrain. There are also gas cars with electric doors. Also, most doors also have a mechanical release. My Tesla has both, electrical and mechanical
>So when a fire *does* happen, it's potentially a lot more dangerous. And that's a fact.
Thats not a fact. Thats a niche scenario. This is also unrelated to the topic. When it comes to car safety, the overall safety is important not niche scenarios.
If you are ten times more likely to die in an ice car, you cant say an ev is more dangerous *it x, y, and z happens*
>That's not an EV thing. That's a car thing.
I understand that, but it's *far* more common on EV's.
>Doors are completely unrelated to the drivetrain.
I never said doors *were* related to the drivetrain.
>Also, most doors also have a mechanical release. My Tesla has both, electrical and mechanical
*All* cars that have electric door openers have a secondary mechanical opener for emergency purposes. It's required. But there *have* been EV fires where emergency workers couldn't rescue the passengers because of said electric door openers. Calling a fact a niche scenario is still a fact, and is most definitely related to the topic at hand. Yes, overall safety is important, but we're not talking about crash worthiness or anything like that. Strictly bringing up the issue of battery fires in EV's vs gas fires.
Clearly we're not going to come to an agreement on this, which is fine, so I'll just leave the conversation here. Good day.
>Calling a fact a niche scenario is still a fact, and is most definitely related to the topic at hand.
No...
Look, you come up with a scenario in your head like "what of the batterie gets pierced and starts burning and then you sit in a car with electrical doors which don't open?"
Then I'll will come up with a scenario in my head like "what if you get in an accident and the gasoline combustion and gets into the air vents and blow fire into the cabinet through the vents, and then you sit in a car with electric door handles that don't open? Much more likely scenario"
(That actually happened to my supervisors parents a month ago because someone ran a red light)
Then you come up with something why EVs are dangerous, then I come up with something why has cars are dangerous...
THAT DOESNT MATTER
In a discussion like that you cannot focus on micro things.
You gotta look at the big picture. On average, EVs are safer than ice cars for mostly 3 things. More rigid cage, more crumble zone, less likely to catch fire.
Fire resistance is already a HUGE advantage that EVs have over ice cars. To say its harder to take battery fires out is a safety issue for EVs is not a fact. It's misleading at best or a lie at worse.
In theory I could continue to daily my RT but at current prices it’s going to be about $100 each fill up, usually 3 times a week unless the 5.7 does better in extended idle which I’ve not been able to test, that’s about $1,200 a month, my new condo is going to run me $4200 a month, my total after tax take home is just over $10,000 so that’s going to be 50% of my income right there. If I keep them I probably won’t daily then since I do still have my Tesla. They’ll probably become weekend cars
For the majority of it it is. And best case scenario for an RT is 12MPG stock, I’ve began building mine so I’m rocking 9/10 [all the Time](https://imgur.com/a/ToELW1y). These cars are cool and perfect platforms to build but dailying in Cali would be a bad idea. I daily it right now because I’m WFH and only drive to the gym or grocery. When I move back I’ll still be WFH but as I apply to more and more jobs it will eventually be office job again. So at that point faulting it won’t be realistic anymore :/
I got about 19mpg daily driving my manual r/T Challenger, with a mix of interstate commuting and local trips. I wasn't easy on it either. If you actually use the skip shift (instead of delete it) you get a lot better fuel economy.
Youre right to say that because this person is a clown, ive had a 2020 RT and 2021 WB Scatpack, ive averaged 20mpg+ in auto/eco modes with the MDS 4cyl shutoff. Commute is 10 city, 14hwy. Dude bought a V8 and is complain about gas mileage is beyond me lmao
[heres one, got a couple on my profile from a year ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Challenger/comments/wog1f0/no_filter_needed_for_the_way_the_sun_is_hitting/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1)
You shouldn't trust what the screen tells you in regards to mpg. It's not as accurate as you might think. You should figure out your mpg the old school way. Use your tripometer along with how many gallons you filled up with. That's the most accurate method of figuring out mpg. Regardless, there's something wrong with your car if you're getting 10 mpg. That's not normal, even for the 6.4L.
??? Your numbers are really, really bad. Our 2013 Durango RT is getting 13-15 city and 18+ highway. I got weight and size on you, what are you doing to achieve 9mpg avg lol stop and go doesn’t even do that for us
Yeah, it's super suspect what they're saying. Either they've got under inflated tires, a dirty air filter, driving in low gears all the time, or some other worn out part on the car is causing OP to have terrible gas mileage. They should be getting at least 14-23 mpg.
I switched from a 2017 Challenger r/T with manual to a 2019 Model 3 Long range AWD back in 2019. The Model 3 had better torque, was faster, way more efficient, and handled better. I occasionally miss the V8 grumble and the manual (still have a Miata) but yeah going from V8 to electric you still keep the torque but don't have the fuel costs.
Charging costs for my Model 3 is about $90 a month when I used to pay $350-400 a month for gas in my WRX. I don’t have to pay for oil changes, brake pads, belts, etc.
That's good and all, if the comparisons line up in your favor. For me, downsizing from a full-size sedan to a Model 3 for an extra $20K would be a tough sell. You're talking maybe 5 years of those recurring costs to make back the upfront cost increase. A WRX costs more than my Impala did though, so it might come faster.
Me, I've had to do one set of brakes and am JUST NOW needing to do a belt for the first time on my Impala. That's after nearly 135K miles in 7 years. 1,500+ miles/month in it, but I don't pay CA gas prices.
As someone who has had a Model 3 for 4 years and a few large sedans as well, you'd be surprised how much space is in a Model 3 considering its dimensions. It's got about as much legroom and headroom as say a Camry, and with the frunk and lower trunk compartment the storage is pretty good. I saw in a Cadillac CT5 and a CT4 recently and there was a lot less room in back on the CT4, and the CT5 had about the same amount of space.
​
I can fit as much luggage in the Model 3 as smaller crossovers can fit.
The recent price cuts combined with the $7,500 federal tax credit and 2 grand CA state incentive is a pretty good deal, especially considering the price of fuel in California.
Surprisingly, Tesla marketshare dropped in California while other EV brands increased.
Some folks theorized it’s due to Elon ostracizing a certain political base that tends to buy EV
Tesla EV market share is going to keep dropping because for a long time they were the only game in town. When you’re 99% of sales that’s going to change at some point. To me, that’s not really surprising.
Also they have shit quality control. Panel gaps, shit paint and more recently cracking front windowshields. Don’t get me wrong, I was all about getting a Tesla but after digging deeper I’ve look elsewhere. With the recent price cuts I’ve started to reconsider Tesla’s again but the QC is still a major factor for me
In 2023, no not really. A model 3 doesn't cost much more than a high trim camry now after the price drops. Model Y is still expensive compared to say a base CRV, but it isn't much more than the more desirable CRV hybrid.
The germans are still coming online, but their current offerings leave a lot to be desired. The japanese brands are years behind, with stuff coming in 2024 or so. American brands can't stop catching fire and are overpriced, or underpowered/underequipped... and are produced by the dozens it feels like. And I'd rather try my luck with a tesla than a korean car... at least if something goes wrong in the tesla you don't have to deal with the horrible dealer networks of kyundai.
And then there's the (un)availability factor. You can't just buy a car these days without a waitlist, it just happens to be that tesla's waitlist is measured in weeks instead of months or years (hi rav4 prime).
Supercharger network, or rather a charging network that actually works reliably. So many other charging stations malfunction/don't deliver on fast charging/just plain broken, and payments are a dice roll on them.
There will be so many options in about 2-3 years time. Now is a crap time to buy a car no matter what, and because of factors above Tesla remains the obvious "default".
Wow I didn’t realize wait times were so bad on other manufacturers, that’s a good point. Supercharger network is great but I personally barely use it. Disregard wait times and I’d take an ioniq 5 over a model y any day though. Base model 3 is undeniable value but my comment was talking about the brand overall
I was looking at a Chevy Bolt, and I could either order from the factory with a 6 month wait or buy from a dealer with $6,000 of mandatory add-ons. Got a used Model 3 instead and had it the next week ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I promise you, there really aren’t unless money is no object and you really require a luxury vehicle. I want nothing to do with Tesla, but nothing really successfully competes with the model y or model 3 especially with the government incentives (in the US at least). Everything else has far less range, worse charging,and most importantly, is nearly impossible to find.
From a performance to dollar standpoint, there really isn’t though.
That said, I will never own another Tesla. Hopefully the legacy automakers catch up.
My 2019 Model 3 was a lot better built than my 2015 Mustang in terms of panel alignment. Wind noise is bad on the Model 3. The panel that covers the cabin air filter was missing a screw (turns out the piece was not in spec so only 2 fasteners fit and they didn't care).
I’m replying to you becuz I too was a rotary head. Used to have an 87 fc na. I’m going to have a model 3 as a rental this weekend while my wife and I visit Disneyland. I think that will be a deciding factor if I like it. Done a short test drive before when they first came out.
It's a really good daily driver and feels lighter than it is. You can really feel the low center of gravity and it handles better than you'd expect. Even the rear wheel drive models are torquey enough. I wouldn't own one without home charging though. There is surprisingly a lot of interior space in the car considering it's a more compact sedan. You can also put a ton of stuff in the trunk and frunk without having your rear view blocked like a filled up hatchback.
​
If you have young kids and are trying to road trip with a lot of baby gear you may feel limited, but now that my son doesn't need a stroller anymore I can put lots of stuff in there when I do my annual 1200 mile round trip. Supercharging has been great too. I only do it a few times a year.
Yeah, exactly! Teslas were a step above everyone else when they were the only good EV choice around. Crap like the Weego and and whatnot werent really enticing people. Now youve got a lot of desirable EVs in the market from the big automakers.
Did there total sales drop though? That's more important than market share since their market share was artificially high for years by being basically the only game in town.
> Did there total sales drop though?
Nope. [Tesla is the #2 selling overall (not just EVs) auto brand in California now](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/09/tesla-is-2-best-selling-auto-brand-in-california/).
People are simply playing games with relative percentages when they cite their EV market share growing smaller even while their share of the overall auto market continues to grow.
> Nobody said they sold less cars.
But that's generally what people are trying to imply when they bring it up, virtually always without the context that the company's overall sales continue to grow.
This is hyperbole, but if someone has 100% of the market and a new entrant sells 1 car, the leader’s market share would drop. But it’s clearly misleading
[https://www.rtoinsider.com/ext/resources/2023/04/20/Annual-EV-sales-in-California-(Veloz)-Alt-FI.jpg](https://www.rtoinsider.com/ext/resources/2023/04/20/Annual-EV-sales-in-California-(Veloz)-Alt-FI.jpg)
According to this chart (the rest of the article is paywalled) sales of EVs in California rose from 250,279 in 2021 to 345,818 in 2022.
My question was about if Tesla sales dropped because it's possible their market share decreases while total sales increase due to the increased availability of other EVs.
Naw you were clear, it's linked in the article - it's actually really detailed. [See here](https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales)
That's exactly it. Tesla is selling more cars than ever, but their market share declines as more manufacturers start selling EVs. That said, no other automaker is anywhere near Tesla's EV market share in North America. Tesla sold around 485,000 cars in the US in 2022, while Ford sold about 60,000 Mustangs EVs and f150 Lightnings, and GM sold around 38,000 Bolts.
I mean the only Chevy's I think look decent to great are the Colorado and the Corvette.
Their SUV's are hideous blobs and the Silverado is ugly as shit ever since they did the refresh. The last gen Silverado on the other hand is/was gorgeous.
The bolt is passable. But their are some good looking EV's out their. The model S looks good. The Mach-E does too. Same for the lightning and the Rivian.
The other options are also getting a lot better. Tesla really isn't the only game in town anymore, especially when it comes to the mismarked cars that people are really buying (Ioniq 5, polestar 2, etc)
Policy [discussion is welcome](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/wiki/politics). However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Also Tesla has the margin room to cut prices to keep them competitive. Tesla car margins are probably second only to the Porsche macan / cayenne.
The majority of all electric cars are unprofitable right for auto manufacturers so Tesla putting margin pressure further on them hurts those companies.
That's kind of the problem — the only reason they had a margin that large is because they were the only game in town for EVs. This margin-cutting is them normalizing to a competitive market, and the days of Tesla having a margin remotely close to Porsche are done.
This isn't Tesla hurting competitors. This is Tesla admitting that their profitability to this point was an artificial construct. And the majority of electric cars are not unprofitable.
They still have an 11% margin (closer to 9 excluding ZEV credits), which is almost twice what most other automakers have, even after recent price cuts.
> the only reason they had a margin that large is because they were the only game in town for EVs.
That's really not true. From an industrial manufacturing perspective, their level of integration and how they assemble their cars is unmatched by any other automaker. That's a large part of why their margin is so high.
Every new product brought to market is like that until adoption picks up. Early adopters pay more for innovative products until competition catches up. This isn’t out of the ordinary.
Which is anticompetitive monopolistic behavior and should not be supported. They have shown a willingness to increase prices just as fast and if they put others out of business, you can be sure they’ll drive prices way up
What I want to know is how people are spending 3-4-500$ a month on gas?
How far do you travel for work and stuff? I live about 20 miles from work (so 40 miles back and forth) and drive 5 days a week there for a total of 200 miles a week for work and spend about probably 175$ max for gas a month (it's about 75% highway) and that's using premium 91.
Los Angeleno here. 30 mile one way commute, spending about $70 a week on 91. Mostly because I do more than just go to work and back. If I leave the city, I'm gonna be spending another $70 easy.
91 octane gas in California is at least $4.90/gal in the large metropolitans. Majority of "highway"commute is spent in stop and go traffic. Commuting 10 miles in socal rush hour is guaranteed at least 45 mins one way. Folks with large gas tanks that need to fill up once a week are easily hitting at least $300 a month
Well now imagine that it's maybe 10% highway at best and it's all stroads and you have to travel 30 miles round trip. Add in the random trips and premium 91 being $4.75 depending on the gas station and it can happen.
And the electrical grid needed to actually support these is a decade or more behind schedule... you go Newsome!
[https://fortune.com/2022/09/01/california-electric-cars-charge-newsom/](https://fortune.com/2022/09/01/california-electric-cars-charge-newsom/)
How are hybrids considered *Zero* Emissions Vehicles? If the engine is running, the tailpipe is emitting.
Seems like they're inflating that number to me
>Most people aren't plugging them in at all.
That's false for privately owned PHEVs. For example, on page ii of the following study, you can see that most PHEVs are getting some electric miles:
https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf
More emissions than originally predicted, but that's different from saying that PHEV owners never plug in. A PHEV owner could charge every day, and still have emissions if they exceed their electric range. And the studies show that electric percentage is increasing as electric range increases.
People misrepresent what that report says all the time. The icct report concluded that the EPA overestimates all electric driving range by between 25%-65% based on self-reported data, not that so few users plug in their PHEVs.
This is why I'm hoping EREVs start to take over the market compared to PHEVs.
Most PHEVs seem to have relatively low electric only range, which I'm guessing disincentivizes electric charging and investing in a home charging system. I suspect they're used more like non-plug in hybrids because they need petrol to get acceptable range anyway - you're never really divorced from the petrol station.
EREVs have purely electric drivetrains, with the expected electric-only range. The range extender-y bit is really just for outlier trips that are exceptionally long, or when caught without a charger.
Ask any PHEV owner and they tell you they fill up like, twice a year. Unless they do roads trips every month or something.
If your trips are primarily around town, most PHEV's these days can still do like minimum 20 EV miles on a charge. Heck the new Prius Prime does double that.
Yeah, the number of people who are actively choosing to not charge their PHEVs is likely a statistical blip. I’m sure there are many, but the overwhelming majority are probably reaping the full benefits of the car they paid for
many of the studies were done on German cars in Europe. PHEV's with a very limited amount of EV range are basically using the EV range as a loophole to get a better CO2 emission score.
If your daily commute is more than the hybrid battery range, then it's not the right one for you. It's not that the low range disincentivizes people. It's that they just aren't using it properly.
It's not the car's fault people aren't plugging the car in as it was designed to be used
The ones I saw in thr past were mostly looking at Europe where there were a bunch of PHEVs with really small range. Ones with bigger range could have the same behavior, but not necessarily.
>Aren’t there studies coming out consistently about people not plugging in their PHEVs as much as they expected as well?
More specifically that PHEV emissions are higher than originally predicted - which is different from whether or not they're getting plugged in. For example, if people are exceeding their electric range even though they charged beforehand.
https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf
The terminology goes back to the 1960s and 1970s when tailpipe emissions of carbon monoxide etc was the concern. It was about air quality in places like southern california. CO2 emission came in much later; CO2 is a greenhouse gas but does not directly cause a degradation in air quality like the originally regulated gases of HC, CO, NOx, and particulates (smoke).
Because the vehicle doesn't emit. Yes, it technically is responsible for emissions somewhere, but at the local level where air pollution concerns generally are a real issue, it does not emit.
Dealing with the grid is tangential to the final goal because it is something that can change over time.
Not any hybrid, few PHEV namely those that have real world range of [50 miles or greater](https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035#:~:text=Plug%2Din%20hybrid%2C%20full,ZEV%20requirement%20with%20PHEVs.).
Most PHEV if not all do not meet that requirement. It's mostly BEV with range extenders that are eligible (think Polestar 1, i3 REx, Volt, etc).
Yeah, I don't know what the previous ZEV eligibility conditions were, I believe it might have only 10 miles before 2023? At least something pretty low ball and these figures count cars that were eligible at the time when they were sold, but exceptions low range PVEVs are being phased out, by 2028 or 2029 they will require minimum range of 70 miles with the 50 mile requirement already in effect today?
Then again not very familiar with this and maybe it's all BS.
Even so, if you exceed the battery range on those cars, then they aren't zero emissions
Especially, since there's a sizeable amount of people who don't plug them in at all
Yeah, I know. Not a huge fan of PHEV incentives for exactly that reason. Seen way too many examples of people who go for it only for the incentives just to never ever plug it in.
Should give out incentives for setting up charging or even just charging.
CA is also ahead of schedule on converting their grid to renewables, and the goal is eventual to have all renewable or zero carbon generation. Even in areas with 100% fossil fuel EVs are cleaner than gas.
The vast majority of CO2 from cars comes from driving not manufacturing. No one is saying that there is zero carbon footprint involved with EVs, but they are dramatically better than ICE vehicles.
> The vast majority of CO2 from cars comes from driving not manufacturing
For ICE. For EV's, the manufacturing part is considerable. That's why EVs have 'breakeven' miles driven to offset those higher initial emissions. And there are reasonably wide estimates of those miles driven necessary. The media only reports on the optimistic lower-bound estimates....
It's not even close. The average person drives 14,000 miles per year, and EV lifespan is around 8 years. So on average ~112,000 miles.
My 40 year ice car is at 300,000 miles and still operational
That is irrelevant because the majority of your emissions ARE tailpipe which was my original point. You’d have been better off getting a new EV multiple times than driving 300k miles with a gas car from a carbon perspective.
>That is irrelevant because the majority of your emissions ARE tailpipe which was my original point.
And EVs are majority in the manufacturing of vehicles and EV vehicle lifespan is shorter than ice vehicles
1. Your estimate for EV lifetime is incorrect. EVs are estimated to last 15-20 years and 100-200k miles, which is on par with a traditional car (you keeping yours for so long is an outlier). Looking at "average time people have kept EVs" right now doesn't make any sense, of course someone who bought a 2013 Nissan Leaf isn't going to be able to keep a car for 20 years because the range was so low, it became impractical to drive after a few years. That isn't the case with modern 250+mi range EVs which are too new to be included in your stats. (https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-typical-passenger-vehicle#:~:text=Every%20gallon%20of%20gasoline%20burned%20creates%20about%208%2C887%20grams%20of%20CO2)
2. Assuming your stat was correct (which it isn't), and assuming you get 20mpg (average mpg for a car made in 1980), your lifetime tailpipe emissions are 133T of CO2, while the average ICE car takes 6T to manufacture (https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle) Total: *139T of CO2 for your ICE*
3. Using the high-end estimate of EV manufacturing emissions of 9.4T (https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle). 5 vehicles would take 47T CO2 to produce. Using the average 0.879 lb of emissions per kWh in CA.(https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/about/environment/calculator/assumptions.pdf) we can look at the 300k miles driven divided by 2.9 miles/kWh for. a total of 103,448 kWh over the lifetime, which equals out to 59T of CO2. 47+59 = *106T of CO2 for the EV*.
Even in your absolutely absurd scenario of ICE cars lasting 40 years and EVs lasting 8, AND with using current electricity emissions (not including the rising % of grid renewables in the next 40 years), the EV STILL comes out ahead by ~24%.
What you just said is a general statement vs the definitive "8 years" mentioned before. "Over time" can mean anything. I have electronics with batteries working well after more than 8 years and they go through charging cycles more often than an EV would.
>What you just said is a general statement vs the definitive "8 years" mentioned before.
Tesla is 8 year warranty
>"Over time" can mean anything.
Over the lifespan of the vehicle
>I have electronics with batteries working well after more than 8 years
How does that 15 year old battery compare in performance to a brand new battery?
My 40 year old gasoline car will dyno fairly close to it did when it rolled out of the factory. The battery degradation from a 40 year battery would be significant
>Tesla is 8 year warranty
And your 40 year old ICE did not come with a 40 year warranty. If 8 years is the warranty period then the actual lifespan is way longer than that?
>Over the lifespan of the vehicle
Which is how long and what is the basis of your claim?
>How does that 15 year old battery compare in performance to when it was new?
Idk, I don't run benchmarks on it. It works fine for what it's supposed to do.
>My 40 year old gasoline car will dyno fairly close to it did when it rolled out of the factory. The battery degradation from a 40 year battery will be significant
There's a big difference between 8 years and 40 years.
>The vast majority of CO2 from cars comes from driving not manufacturing.
Not with EV's. They take much, much, more CO2 to manufacture than ice vehicles
No. I am including EVs. They take more to manufacture, but it does not even close to outweigh the tailpipe emissions of gas cars. Y’all are misinformed, please actually go looks up the comparison.
They don't. It's been proven time and again that even if you add all manufacturing emissions and used only coal-based electricity, an EV will be cleaner over its lifetime vs an ICE, even if you don't account for all the extra maintenance, producing and delivering gas, or the environmental impact of manufacturing an ICE car.
>It's been proven time and again that even if you add all manufacturing emissions of an EV and used only coal-based electricity, an EV will be cleaner over its lifetime vs an ICE
No. Much more CO2 is released to produce an EV, and they also have a shorter lifespan
> or the environmental impact of manufacturing an ICE car.
The environment impact of manufacturing an ice car is much less than an EV
>Much more CO2 is released to produce an EV
I never claimed it wasn't the case. It's just that the lifetime emissions of an ICE far outweigh that initial cost on the EV side.
>they also have a shorter lifespan
How exactly can you determine the difference in lifespan of one product category that only started being viable 10 or so years ago and became popular 5 or so years ago with a product category that's been around for decades?
>The environment impact of manufacturing an ice car is much less than an EV
See above. It doesn't mean that ICE manufacturing is emission free, but in all the comparisons of the emissions created by ICE and EV, the manufacturing and energy sourcing is only added on the EV side, as if ICE cars are made from this air and the gas magically appears at gas stations.
>It's just that the lifetime emissions of an ICE far outweigh that initial cost on the EV side.
The average EV owner is keeping their car for less than the breakeven point
>How exactly can you determine the difference in lifespan of one product category that only started being viable 10 or so years ago and became popular 5 or so years ago with a product category that's been around for decades?
Batteries have been around for awhile. Common knowledge they degrade over time.
I replace my phone battery every 1-2 years
>The average EV owner is keeping their car for less than the breakeven point
Do they scrap them after 3 or 4 years or are they sold to the next person who would've bought an ICE car otherwise and continued polluting with it?
>I replace my phone battery every 1-2 years
That's rather excessive. I kept my last phone for 5 years and still had the original battery. I replaced it because software update support was ending for it. In any case, I charge my phone daily, while, for the most part, an EV only needs to be charged no more than once a week, especially if we're talking about people not doing crazy miles.
>or are they sold to the next person who would've bought an ICE car otherwise and continued polluting with it?
No one is buying a EV that's at the end of it's lifespan and the cost of the battery replacement will total the vehicle.
>That's rather excessive.
Not really. Batteries degrade
I like using products that preform as they were designed to
>for the most part, an EV only needs to be charged no more than once a week
I drive to work 7 days per week. It would need to charge every day
>No one is buying a EV that's at the end of it's lifespan and the cost of the battery replacement will total the vehicle.
Which is closer to the end of its lifespan - a 3 year old Tesla that's done 500k miles or a 10 year old one with 50k miles on the clock?
>Not really. Batteries degrade
Not within a year or 2 unless you fast charge it several times every day.
>I drive to work 7 days per week. It would need to charge every day
So your daily commute is like 200 miles? In that case you'd be doing around 50k miles a year or 400k miles within your imaginary EV lifespan, meaning you would've passed the tipping point of EV vs ICE emissions.
You're inventing a special personal definition for a word that everybody else understands perfectly. Everybody else understands ZEV means the vehicle isn't emitting anything.
I'm curious: Are you suggesting we all just die instead of consuming things? You seem very dedicated to never emitting anything ever again.
> Everybody else understands ZEV means the vehicle isn't emitting anything.
I'm stating the obvious. That ZEV does not mean zero emissions. I'm all for a serious public debate on green/sustainable/climate topics. That's impossible on reddit tho.
But, there are much better ways to dis-incentivize emissions than subsidizing the shit out out of one particular technology.
> That ZEV does not mean zero emissions.
You're right, it means zero emission **vehicle** and the vehicle itself is not emitting anything, at which point the focus should move to making the power grid cleaner, which any existing EVs would automatically take advantage of.
> I'm stating the obvious. That ZEV does not mean zero emissions.
And? What's your point? Does that somehow make my statement not true or something?
> I'm all for a serious public debate on green/sustainable/climate topics. That's impossible on reddit tho
Probably because your post history almost exclusively shows you screeching about how EVs are irredeemably horrible.
PZEV is not a Subaru marketing term. It's a regulatory term they decided to put on as a badge. Cars can be classified different levels, LEV, ULEV, SULEV, PZEV, broadly speaking.
​
It's based on the fact that the original California ZEV law wanted to bring in electric (and hydrogen etc) vehicles back in the early 90s. When adoption wasn't happening (for technical and business reasons), they amended the law. A PZEV vehicle achieves SULEV emissions (very low tailpipe hydrocarbons etc), and also has "zero evap" , basically very very small amount of fumes escape from the gas tank.
​
Source: I worked in emission certification for a major OEM.
Yeah so I’m a bit of an idiot but I’ve never understood Subarus with PZEV on them. Does it really stand for partial zero emissions vehicle? Technically isn’t every vehicle partially zero emissions? Like, when it’s off, as an example? I don’t get that
I wonder what the breakdown is between BEV, PHEV and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, especially between the first two.
IIRC the definition of ZEV includes those as well.
It really seems like we are at a key stage of the transition. This year EVs are projected to make up 33% of the market share in China, the world’s largest auto market.
My friend who just came back from Shanghai told me he saw more Tesla there than Bay Area… which is positively astonishing if you’ve been to Bay Area recently lol.
>Considering California is the largest auto market in the US, it really seems like we are at a key stage of the transition.
Honestly, I think the easiest part of the market has been encapsulated. People who don’t own their own home/parking area or cannot afford to install a level 2 charger are going to be the hard sell, even if public charging becomes more available the current grid infrastructure is only starting to show how inadequate it is for the task placed before it and places with high population density that mostly require a car to get around still pose questionable charging queues as EV adoption rates continue to climb.
public charging depots/lots are coming on fast... they'll be as ubiquitious as Trader Joe's in the next few years. And many apartments are now adding charging outlets. Even my cheapass landlord will be adding charging units this summer.
My apartment complex has a few dozen charging spots, the problem is they basically charge an extra $200 per month on rent if you want one. Standard parking is free but really the efficacy of apartment complex charging depends entirely on how much your landlord wants to make money.
> I think the easiest part of the market has been encapsulated.
Nah, homeowner ship rate is more than 50% in the U.S. and even in California EV market share is still just less than 20%.
Home ownership rate is actually closer to 65%, with majority of them Single Family Homes: https://www.statista.com/topics/5144/single-family-homes-in-the-us/#topicOverview
Also like I mentioned earlier, China is going to be reaching 1/3 EV market share this year, and vast majority of people there live in high rise apartments and condos. So it's obviously a very solvable problem in time.
> I wonder what the breakdown is between BEV, PHEV and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, especially between the first two.
>
>
>
> IIRC the definition of ZEV includes those as well.
That's ridiculous. PHEV have tailpipes, and are emitting exhaust. According to Toyota, a 2023 Prius emits 29 g CO2/km. Since that number is from the manufacturer they have probably calculated that by using a lot of short trips and plugging it in between all trips.
https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Toyota/114812/2023-Toyota-Prius-Plug-in-18-Hybrid.html
[Wonder not, the source linked in the article has a detailed breakdown.](https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales)
95,946 BEV, 27,205 PHEV, and 902 FCEV. Of the BEVs, the majority were Teslas.
Gov Gavin Newsom signed a bill into law in March extending the license for Diablo Canyon in partnership with the Federal Govt. Gavin is no champion of nuclear power, but if you read the press release from the Ca Govt, you would never know that.
[PHOTOS: Governor Newsom Visits Diablo Canyon Power Plant](https://www.gov.ca.gov/2023/03/02/photos-governor-newsom-visits-diablo-canyon-power-plant)
I don't think Gavin had ever been to the plant before the photo op. The public is bound to suffer when you remove two 2.2 Gigawatt base load plants ( San Onofre and Diablo Canyon) from your electric grid without an adequate replacement. But hey, keep outlawing gas appliances and force everything to be electric.
I have never understood why some Democrats are anti-nuclear power. It is the ultimate in emissions-free power generation; the only real (albeit SIGNIFICANT) downside is the cost to build the plants.
> I have never understood why some Democrats are anti-nuclear power.
The last two Dem Administrations poured billions of dollars into the sector, but the nuclear industry is incapable of building reactors on-time and on-budget, which is why energy investors and utilities don't want to touch new builds with a 10 foot pole.
It's very telling that the poison pill which stopped all nuclear construction in this country was the requirement that they have skin in the game for the construction overruns. They weren't fully liable for the construction overruns, the government would eat some of the losses but the government refused to eat all of the losses like it has in the past. And that was a deal breaker because every utility in the country operating nuclear knows that the cost estimates they used to get government underwriting were complete fiction. The government continued to underwrite the safety risks, the chance of changes to the energy market, the difficulties with waste storage, all the things that are supposedly hard and it didn't matter. Just the mere gap between the claimed cost and the actual cost was all it took.
This.
There are potentially better options than a standard Uranium reactor as well. Thorium is an option that is getting more visibility for a number of reasons. That's for a different discussion, though.
Oh! And let's reduce the payout rate for solar power generation to make it less attractive! Can't have solar stepping on SoCal Edison's toes! God I hate our power companies.
Let's not ignore that the utility **actively** avoided maintaining their lines and directly contributed to several forest fires, and then going so deep into debt from restoring that they went bankrupt.
Yeah that’s exactly where I figured you were going. I wasn’t talking about chargers, the whole point of EV changeover is to eventually (ideally) work off sustainable power sources, which requires development.
Obviously we don’t have that now, obviously it’s idealized and requires execution, but not having network cables laid would’ve been a bad reason to say we should never develop the internet. Idk why this is any different. Just because it takes effort doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.
Also, no reason to be that rude, we’re here to enjoy cars.
> During the midday, large amounts of solar energy are created, which partially contributes to lower demand for additional electricity. Curtailment impacts the curve. Increasing battery storage can mitigate the issues of solar abundance during the day.
Battery electric cars aren't the problem, they're part of the solution.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve#Duck_curve_in_California
What's currently missing is software in the cars allowing the utilities to control the charging of cars during peak solar, and during non-peak evening hours. That, and the cars need to be plugged in during the day, not just at night. That argues that workplace charging needs to be ubiquitous.
V2G would be even more effective, allowing millions of cars to act as a frequency stabilization power source for the grid.
The blackouts that occurs are not a result of not enough electricity but generally due to wildfire risk and bad infrastructure that hasn’t been updated yet (due to past PG&E corruption and incompetence)
The premature, unnecessary shut down of San Onofre is also a large contributor. It was shutdown for political reasons. There were no technical or economic reasons why the plant couldn't have continued to operate.
Blackouts have not been done due to lack of electricity. They are for wildfire safety reasons. There was a flex alert last year that asked people to use less energy for a few hours, but they have never cut power due to insufficient supply here.
That's just flat out wrong. They had blackouts in August 2020 due to insufficient capacity. In 2022 at the end of August spot prices of electricity averaged $10 per kW. That's 100 times the national average rate.
As with any complex system, things rarely boil down to a sole cause. While wildfire concerns and poor infrastructure are contributors, losing enough power for millions of houses is also a large contributor.
I would argue it was even worse than that - SONGS had an issue with its replacement heat exchanger tubes vis a vis vibration. It was fixable, but would have cost money.
Due to the regulations concerning nuke plant construction, each plant has a decommissioning fund that by law is some ungodly large amount, and is untouchable and fully funded from something like the end of the first year of operation.
SoCal Edison could have paid a moderate amount t**o fix the problem, or they could pay *absolutely nothing* and use the already existing decommissioning fund to shut it down. Money talks, bullshit walks.
This is the answer.
But it still leaves the question as what to do for the many weeks at a time that we are without power. Last year alone I went a total of 8 weeks without power because of it. I don’t see EV being a viable option in CA until something is done with PG&E.
The short answer is no, we haven’t had rolling blackouts every year. In the last 30 years there were maybe three, one due to Enron fucking with the electricity market, and the other two due to fire safety precautions.
It sounds like we each live in very different areas. I’m in SF and haven’t been troubled by rolling blackouts at all. Maybe you live somewhere remote? The majority of the population here certainly isn’t experiencing the kind of outages you are.
Tahoe region.
Still your original comment doesn’t stand either way because if some areas are having blackouts then technically California does have them regularly.
[https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx](https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx)
The daily demand of electricity is lowest at night, when EVs would be charging. Even during the times of year that there is maximum demand and California ISO declares a "flex alert", that only lasts a few hours. For any time outside of these peaks, generation is idled. If the load demand remained higher at night, the grid operators would use cheaper and greener "base load" generation than expensive and dirtier "peaker" generators.
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-electric-vehicles-wont-break-the-grid/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-electric-vehicles-wont-break-the-grid/)
Why Electric Vehicles Won’t Break the Grid
“We’re talking about a pretty gradual transition over the course of the next few decades,” said Ryan Gallentine, transportation policy director at Advanced Energy Economy. “It’s well within the utilities’ ability to add that kind of capacity.”
Last year’s infrastructure law and the Inflation Reduction Act passed this summer allocate billions of dollars toward transportation electrification and projects that could make the electric grid more resilient and reliable.
The Inflation Reduction Act provides $9.7 billion for the Department of Agriculture to improve resiliency and affordability among rural electric systems, including the purchase of renewable energy and zero-emission systems. Another $760 million goes to the Department of Energy to accelerate the siting of interstate transmission projects.
Lots of commercials telling you to reduce your power usage during the time of day when people get home. This is also the time of day when the winds slow down and solar panels are less effective. Hydro still goes as long as there's no drought.
Anyone taken a **long** trip in an all electric car. Wondering how long it took to charge up at the EV station (including time waiting for an open plug).
Depends on your definition of long, but I did SF to LA in my Model 3, which is eight hours with traffic. Made sure I had a full charge before I left, stopped once at the Kettleman city supercharger during lunch (40 minutes) and then arrived with a little bit of juice left. So it didn't take any additional time, considering I would have stopped for a lunch break anyways.
I’ve gone round trip from Boise, Idaho to Los Angeles twice and round trip Boise to Sacramento once.
Charging times can vary a bit depending on supercharger spacing along the route, and charging rates of where you stop, but it’s usually about 10 minutes of charging per hour of driving. Not that you stop every hour, but you can go 2 hours then charge for 20 or 3 and charge for 30, etc.
I’ve found it very reasonable, and it’s not much of a wait after you walk around, stretch, go to the bathroom, etc.
Also, in my couple thousand miles of EV road-trips I personally haven’t ever had to wait for a charger.
Here in California the Tesla EV station at the Tejon Outlets on the 5 right before you go up the Grapevine is always backed up and jammed packed with Teslas
I was wondering when that would start to happen. We have an IONIQ5 and did a trip from OC to Sacramento without any charging hiccups (I actually run into way more issues with the Electrify America chargers near my house smh) but we saw a *lot* of Teslas the entire way there and back. As good as Tesla's charging infrastructure is, I thought they might reach a saturation point where too many vehicles need to charge at the same time on the same route.
Chicago to Orlando in December in a Tesla MY. We usually stop every 2-2.5 hours, so we did the same with MY. I think we stopped 1 hour more the entire round trip compared to our usual drive in ICE. There was some planning involved though.
Never had to wait for an open plug but have been on a road trip with mine during the winter. It took multiple 25 minute charging sessions to get me from Boston to NYC.
drove to AZ from LA in a Model Y performance, had to recharge twice, not as inconvenient as i thought it would be. there was always an open plug, we did get lucky a few times and got the only open one, but another would always open up within at most 10 minutes, it wasn’t too hard to kill 40 minutes of time while charging either. less inconvenient than it sounds for sure. but i also wasn’t alone so maybe it would be different
I've taken medium long trips in a Tesla Model 3, from around SoCal up to the Central Valley. There were plenty of charging stations along my route, open stalls, and I only really had to wait and charge for like 15 - 20 minutes. Honestly was a pretty pleasant experience.
As much as I love my ICEs, I recently got a Tesla and I am really satisfied with my purchase. So this doesn't surprise me. 3 friends alongside me have ordered Teslas after the price drops.
I beg to disagree. My model 3 charges at 1300 miles per hour. On a road trip I spend no longer than 15 minutes at each stop to get me 200+ miles of range.
Nope. High charge current is often misconstrued as bad for a battery but it isn't in reality. It is the HEAT generated by high current charging and discharging that is detrimental to the lifespan of the battery. Fortunately, most EVs (higher end) such as Tesla have water-cooled batteries that have thermal channels running through the cells to bring the heat away when charging and discharging.
>Nope. High charge current is often misconstrued as bad for a battery but it isn't in reality.
If you care about battery longevity, it definitely matters
>It still outlives 99% of ICE cars
My daily driver is a 40 year old ice car with the original engine. How many 40 year old Tesla's do you think will still be operational with the original battery?
How relevant is this comment if compared to 99% of cars? Especially considering that the average ICE on the roads is less than 10 years old.
There’s first gen Teslas with well over 1 Million km on their first battery with over 80% capacity. It’s just concern trolling, nothing else.
And if suddenly age becomes the goal post that has been moved 1000x times. Well, you can recycle those batteries if you want …
There is not a single study (excluding the ones sponsored by oil corps) that would back up any of that.
But you clearly made up your mind already so there’s really no point in arguing.
Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain.
Please use a different source.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
422 Comments
Do-not-respond@reddit
cataleap@reddit
Do-not-respond@reddit
cataleap@reddit
Do-not-respond@reddit
Sufferment@reddit
TiltNow@reddit
haydukee@reddit
Sufferment@reddit
herrek@reddit
linus121@reddit
hypocritical-bastard@reddit
Galbzilla@reddit
Plead_thy_fifth@reddit
SecretAntWorshiper@reddit
braxtynmd@reddit
DaveCootchie@reddit
nickz03@reddit
SecretAntWorshiper@reddit
PristineReputation@reddit
DeezNutsBofaDeez@reddit
jessief2@reddit
Lacyra@reddit
SmilinGoat@reddit
tupaquetes@reddit
DuneWormies@reddit
jessief2@reddit
henry-bacon@reddit
jessief2@reddit
henry-bacon@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
lee1026@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
ZeroTwoDIO@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
Party-Sands@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
Party-Sands@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
Smitty_Oom@reddit
lee1026@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
daviddatesburner@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Technicalmexican@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Technicalmexican@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
Bernie_Ecclestone@reddit
MSTmatt@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
WallyWendels@reddit
verdegrrl@reddit
canadian1987@reddit
NewPairOfShoes@reddit
underscore-hyphen_@reddit
Authormileslewis@reddit
EataPeach4923@reddit
Do_it_in_a_Datsun@reddit
Desistance@reddit
Do_it_in_a_Datsun@reddit
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
EataPeach4923@reddit
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
EataPeach4923@reddit
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
EataPeach4923@reddit
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
EataPeach4923@reddit
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
AthloneRB@reddit
CriticalQ@reddit
Fozzymandius@reddit
CriticalQ@reddit
Fozzymandius@reddit
Sibobby1@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
SeizeTheMeansOfB12@reddit
CriticalQ@reddit
qazedctgbujmplm@reddit
biggsteve81@reddit
CriticalQ@reddit
spooksmagee@reddit
DaggumTarHeels@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
daviddatesburner@reddit
beezelbubs_taint@reddit
mrbrettw@reddit
americanista915@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
americanista915@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
americanista915@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
americanista915@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
americanista915@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
americanista915@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
WallyWendels@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Bowler1097@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Bowler1097@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
americanista915@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
LandlockedGum@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
cubs223425@reddit
ShiroHachiRoku@reddit
cubs223425@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
paulwesterberg@reddit
nomelitas@reddit
Antique-Way-216@reddit
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
paulwesterberg@reddit
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
HairyManBack84@reddit
mplusg@reddit
HairyManBack84@reddit
Desistance@reddit
_NathanialHornblower@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
mplusg@reddit
HairyManBack84@reddit
privated1ck@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
REIGNx777@reddit
tofubeanz420@reddit
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
individualintersects@reddit
JoDiMaggio@reddit
Narcofeels@reddit
trackdaybruh@reddit (OP)
NCSUGrad2012@reddit
RushFactoryGarage@reddit
Nickel012@reddit
arikah@reddit
Nickel012@reddit
phatboy5289@reddit
AFoxGuy@reddit
ruraljurorrrrrrrrrr@reddit
Domyyy@reddit
craichead@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
RushFactoryGarage@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
whoiam06@reddit
FourteenTwenty-Seven@reddit
cookingboy@reddit
AltimaNEO@reddit
trackdaybruh@reddit (OP)
BigCountry76@reddit
SPorterBridges@reddit
OurStreetInc@reddit
SPorterBridges@reddit
OurStreetInc@reddit
Billy-Ruben@reddit
LambdaLambo@reddit
wirthmore@reddit
BigCountry76@reddit
KeyboardGunner@reddit
FourteenTwenty-Seven@reddit
KeyboardGunner@reddit
FourteenTwenty-Seven@reddit
KeyboardGunner@reddit
Abba_Fiskbullar@reddit
FourteenTwenty-Seven@reddit
trackdaybruh@reddit (OP)
DocterNoblexOfWebley@reddit
m4fox90@reddit
Knifes3dge@reddit
IsaacM42@reddit
m4fox90@reddit
Lacyra@reddit
nomelitas@reddit
DocterNoblexOfWebley@reddit
Knifes3dge@reddit
BhristopherL@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
the_lamou@reddit
Mortytowngang@reddit
the_lamou@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
minimomfloors@reddit
privated1ck@reddit
BhristopherL@reddit
Costco__Pizza@reddit
cngo_24@reddit
forzagoodofdapeople@reddit
HiImChewy@reddit
Daxeqtr@reddit
thedirr@reddit
Protholl@reddit
banditorama@reddit
Jtbros@reddit
banditorama@reddit
Lorax91@reddit
Dopedandyduddette@reddit
Lorax91@reddit
Dopedandyduddette@reddit
Lorax91@reddit
XGC75@reddit
crozone@reddit
spooksmagee@reddit
Easy_Money_@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
banditorama@reddit
DiplomaticGoose@reddit
crozone@reddit
gumol@reddit
Dopedandyduddette@reddit
prism1234@reddit
Lorax91@reddit
Dartht33bagger@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
Dopedandyduddette@reddit
Fozzymandius@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
SimpleImpX@reddit
banditorama@reddit
SimpleImpX@reddit
banditorama@reddit
SimpleImpX@reddit
uofmuncensored@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
uofmuncensored@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
uofmuncensored@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Garrosh@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
SpaceToast7@reddit
uofmuncensored@reddit
SpaceToast7@reddit
uofmuncensored@reddit
SpaceToast7@reddit
uofmuncensored@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
SpaceToast7@reddit
RacerM53@reddit
Sufferment@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
teampsyduck@reddit
Jtbros@reddit
1988rx7T2@reddit
linus121@reddit
FiveAlarmDogParty@reddit
waterfromthecrowtrap@reddit
JC-Dude@reddit
trackdaybruh@reddit (OP)
cookingboy@reddit
doomsdaymelody@reddit
wip30ut@reddit
doomsdaymelody@reddit
cookingboy@reddit
Pgie@reddit
cookingboy@reddit
WonderedFidelity@reddit
MonteLSV6@reddit
mishap1@reddit
gizatenner@reddit
Cereal_Nightcap@reddit
ceai@reddit
Bergensis@reddit
FourteenTwenty-Seven@reddit
cookingboy@reddit
SlightlyBadderBunny@reddit
gnarlyoldguy@reddit
biggsteve81@reddit
Daddy_Macron@reddit
just_one_last_thing@reddit
m4fox90@reddit
gnarlyoldguy@reddit
m4fox90@reddit
verdegrrl@reddit
m4fox90@reddit
verdegrrl@reddit
SlightlyBadderBunny@reddit
m4fox90@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
verdegrrl@reddit
AndroidUser37@reddit
xfortune@reddit
SlightlyBadderBunny@reddit
Maybeitsyou2@reddit
cumminscatman@reddit
fuzzylogicIII@reddit
cumminscatman@reddit
fuzzylogicIII@reddit
Billy-Ruben@reddit
BostonPilot@reddit
Crazy_Beat_36@reddit
Crazy_Beat_36@reddit
Billy-Ruben@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
minimomfloors@reddit
XSavageWalrusX@reddit
minimomfloors@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
reddawnman@reddit
allhailswampass@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
WCland@reddit
allhailswampass@reddit
WCland@reddit
allhailswampass@reddit
wirthmore@reddit
ArgyleTheChauffeur@reddit
Crazy_Beat_36@reddit
mikemikemikeandike@reddit
rangerm2@reddit
spyd3rweb@reddit
pinktolip@reddit
ArgyleTheChauffeur@reddit
Jace__B@reddit
JackS15@reddit
hundredjono@reddit
SwiftCEO@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
gumol@reddit
Lonelan@reddit
jackwinklebean@reddit
SJGU@reddit
itsme92@reddit
404nd2@reddit
RSev@reddit
AndroidUser37@reddit
__BIOHAZARD___@reddit
_-Saber-_@reddit
rotaryfurball@reddit
NewPairOfShoes@reddit
rotaryfurball@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
rotaryfurball@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Domyyy@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Domyyy@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
Domyyy@reddit
Activehannes@reddit
generalemiel@reddit
birdlass@reddit
Fabri91@reddit
birdlass@reddit
Tame_Jesus@reddit
Divadonuts@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
WhatTimeisTomorrow@reddit
Kingsydorff@reddit
RacerM53@reddit
BadWowDoge@reddit
GunsupRR@reddit
TronGRID_@reddit
AvariceLegion@reddit
trickster55@reddit