Should HS2 be scrapped?

Posted by Shoddy-Reply-7217@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 31 comments

I have long been a supporter of the concept of high speed rail, and HS2 when it included Leeds and potentially stations further north sounded like a great way to reduce the pressure on the WCML and maybe even sort out trans pennine services at long last, but I've watched in dismay over the last decade as its become bloated and corrupt, scrapped the most needed (IMHO) elements and now it needs a major overhaul, if not to be scrapped (but what then with the compulsory purchased land and the structures that have already been built?).

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LordCommanderDante@reddit

It's an interesting question. The current project doesn't seem to do what was promised - it won't be quicker from London to Birmingham, be very expensive and it won't take you where you want to go. That doesn't seem worth the money. If I had a say, I'd suggest building the Northern parts first, improving the infrastructure and connectivity of Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Leeds etc. Then turn to the South. Said as someone living in Kent, raised in the Midlands.

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Shoddy-Reply-7217@reddit (OP)

I'm inclined to agree, as a Leeds-born-now-southerner, I cannot forgive the pathetic comparative funding given to the north - fueling the self-fulfilling concentration of jobs and people into London and the commuter belt. But the question of infrastructure already built won't go away, so part of me thinks we need to go full-tilt with the original plan, but with a new set of management that are good at/tasked with increasing public understanding and remove the perception of corruption which has grown in the last few years.

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NrthnLd75@reddit

Definitely needs scrapping and they can turn all the bits they've built already into skateparks, bmx tracks and places for people to walk XL Bullies off the lead.

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mysilvermachine@reddit

No. The demand for rail travel is rising, and is already back above pre covid. Hs2 is the only realistic prospect of increasing capacity on the key wcml corridor.

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Kind-County9767@reddit

Isn't demand for rail travel declining rapidly since COVID?

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Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

[https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/144702/uk-rail-passenger-numbers-exceed-pre-pandemic-levels/](https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/144702/uk-rail-passenger-numbers-exceed-pre-pandemic-levels/) Depends how you count etc. etc. but not really or at least not much

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UnpredictiveList@reddit

I would guess locally yes, nationally no.

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Thriftfunnel@reddit

Don't get caught by the sunk cost fallacy. Stuff that has already been purchased and built can be repurposed. The question still comes down to "if there was a reliable/fast/reasonably priced service, would people use it?"

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MrStu56@reddit

>"if there was a reliable/fast/reasonably priced.. You have to pick 2 out of good, fast or cheap - you never get all 3.

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BaBaFiCo@reddit

The numbers released this week show that train capacity is in line with pre pandemic numbers. Times and habits have changed, and there's less travel in the southwest (I'd guess commuters to London from home counties) but otherwise there's clear need for capacity increase across the country.

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ay2deet@reddit

My main gripe with HS2 is that is assumes speed is the most important factor of rail travel. I think the obsession with short journeys is simply because its something that is quantifiable. Maybe people would be happier if the trains interior was the like orient express, and they were served a complementary meal with cocktails.

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Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

I mean, speed is good. It's often a choice between taking a train or flying or not going at all. "Wish it was more like the Orient Express" is a version "wish flying was more like in the 50s" – it can be but it will be hilariously expensive. Also the mandatory meme "HS2 is about the capacity and not speed"

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imminentmailing463@reddit

No. It's a vital piece of national infrastructure. We desperately need the train capacity. And one way or another we'll build it: if we scrap HS2 now we'll probably just end up building it in 10 years time at an even greater cost. And scrapping it now would make what we have built worse value for money. Cheaper =/= better value. It's a national embarrassment and says a lot about the sclerotic state of the country that building some high-speed rail is this problematic.

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Laxly@reddit

Dumb question, but couldn't the funds be used better to improve normal rail lines all across the country instead of producing 3 high speed rail lines?

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Bangkokbeats10@reddit

Agreed, the only issue I’ve got is that it should be nationalised. But I think that about all public infrastructure, that’s financed by the taxpayer.

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1one2two1one2two@reddit

Was this going to be a top speed magnetic levitation train?

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poptimist185@reddit

If we can’t build HS2 then we’re pretty much admitting that we can’t do any big infrastructure project. In the scheme of things it’s not even particularly ambitious. How much longer are we condemned to rely on what the Victorians left us?

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Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

I think we need to study why the costs ballooned but with so much money put into it, so much of it already done and it generally being so needed, it seems like false economy to scrap it. We need to build the Euston extension too!

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themasterd0n@reddit

Wouldn't the sunk cost fallacy comprise the false economy?

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JamitryFyodorovich@reddit

No it would not compromise it, we would be pressing ahead because the infrastructure is badly needed, not because "we have already spent too much so we better continue". The problem it would ease will not go away if it is scrapped and when it is decided to address the problem again 10 years down the line, it will be just as, if not more expensive.

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Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

Not sure I fully understand the "comprise" in this one. Include?

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Marlboro_tr909@reddit

Surely lockdown demonstrated that we don’t need half the business travel and commuting that our current transport infrastructure struggles to deal with Seems to me HS2 should have been a casualty of covid.

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imminentmailing463@reddit

Passenger numbers are already pretty much back to where they were pre-covid. And demand will only go up. So we need the passenger capacity. And everyone seems to ignore the freight capacity too. The WCML is one of the busiest freight lines in Europe. More capacity on it for freight is also vitally needed.

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Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

I don't think the economy was really doing that well

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Azzymaster@reddit

Not sure there’s many London to Liverpool commuters, you’ll assume that most of that route is leisure travel

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SquidsAlien@reddit

The business case for it was only just viable at its start - it's now *way* over budget and the benefits are far less than expected - telecommuting is now a real thing. It's fucked up, and is fucking up a huge part of the countryside for negligible benefit.

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Should HS2 be scrapped?

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31 Comments

CustardCreamBot@reddit

LordCommanderDante@reddit

Shoddy-Reply-7217@reddit (OP)

NrthnLd75@reddit

mysilvermachine@reddit

Kind-County9767@reddit

Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

UnpredictiveList@reddit

Thriftfunnel@reddit

MrStu56@reddit

BaBaFiCo@reddit

ay2deet@reddit

Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

imminentmailing463@reddit

Laxly@reddit

Bangkokbeats10@reddit

1one2two1one2two@reddit

poptimist185@reddit

Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

themasterd0n@reddit

JamitryFyodorovich@reddit

Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

Marlboro_tr909@reddit

imminentmailing463@reddit

Alarmed_Crazy_6620@reddit

Azzymaster@reddit

SquidsAlien@reddit

Harrry-Otter@reddit

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BaBaFiCo@reddit

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