Wow, Reddit just recommended this odd little sub to me for the first time.
What a weirdly apocalyptic group. The tech to completely stop climate change has existed for 50 years. There is enough uranium in sea water for breeder reactors to provide 100 percent of humanities energy needs for 2.5 billion years.
We just need the environmentalists to get out of their own way, and climate change could be solved in a decade.
It takes more energy to extract uranium from seawater than you get out. To supply our current needs of existing nuclear reactors, you would have to extract all uranium from the entire north sea every year. I am afraid that is a complete dead end.
The carbon already released will heat the climate for the next 400-1000 years if we stop using fossil fuels or die out as a species tomorrow.
There are reasons that so many are not hopeful for the future and while I agree that resigning ourselves to our fate is counter productive, being apocalyptic is sensible if the apocalypse is actually coming.
It will take a lot bigger disasters before govts decide enough is enough, kick the greenies bullshit out of politics and do what should be done decades ago.
Bro we'll find miracle tech to store Gigawatts of solar power to last us all winter. And run all cars electric. And all heating and cooling. And cooking. And we'll only pay 15 cents per kWh.
Just a few more years, trust me, we're totally about to get it, just another billion in subsidies bro.
Dope af if it were somewhere in the plausibility ballpark rather than the multiple astronomical units away that it seems to be.
Funny thing is, we could solve the remaining issues with fusion right this second *and* figure out a way to build reactor facilities anywhere in a matter of months rather than years, and I bet we’d *still* be paying what we do now for electricity if not more.
Even if we figured out fusion, and dropped nearly all the bureaucracy that makes construction take so long, and financed it all with public money, and ran it publicly at a loss?
That's less likely to happen than digging up all the Lithium and just slapping huge batteries on everything.
2020-2030 disastrous climate chaos - the great awakening
2030-2400 global food and water scarcity - the great dying
2040 - 2045 resource wars - nuclear armageddon and nuclear winter
2046 - 10, 000, 002, 046* - the virus has been destroyed and the planet (i.e. biosphere) slowly heals and regains its
prehuman biodiverse paradise.
* In approximately 10 billion years the sun is expected to explode.
There are just too many of us. 8 Billion plus and counting.
"Be fruitful and multiply," says the Good Book.
Yeah, well that didn't work out too well.
Anyone figure out the optimum sustainable human population?
There is not such thing as "green" transition. All of that stuff requires space and will damage ecosystems. It's a convenient fantasy for justifying our current excessive human centered standard of living which is not sustainable. It's not about the planet or environment, it never was.
Memes alright. But there is still a lot of things that everyone can do. And if it's just because it's the right thing to do and nothing else, that's more than enough reason.
We can't wait 200 years to figure that out, though. What metrics for the biosphere do we look at? What standard of living should we all have? How do we enforce it globally? What are non-'dense energy sources that are too much for humans'?
Biosphere is already done, around two hundred years have passed since the beginning of industrial revolution.
I mean that humans are incapable of using energy responsibly, especially fossil fuels. Nothing will be enforced globally.
The standard of living will be whatever is possible (if anything) after fossil fuels are gone and human population has undergone dramatic decline.
It would be quite inconceivable for humans to wreck biosphere again without fossil fuels. In a way even the destruction of the natural world wasn't our achievement but merely a result of lucky discovery of fossil fuels and utter failure of managing them. So whatever "floats" will be environmental standard of living.
If we shortened the fucking work week, we could both significantly reduce climate emissions while also making more people smart/developed enough to come up with and implement additional solutions that move the needle on climate and all manner of other ecological issues.
Are you not tired of living on a planet with under-developed idiots who are destroying the planet for no fucking reason?
We got into this mess because of a century of individual bad decisions and the average person these seems to only be willing to give credit to the person who can singlehandedly undo it all at once, who of course will never exist.
**“The gap between wishful thinking and reality is vast.”**
*- Vaclav Smil, professor emeritus at the University of Manitoba.*
The observation could apply to almost anything. But Smil, who has written more than a dozen books about energy and society, is concerned with the gap between the aspiration to fight climate change and the immense on-the-ground effort entailed in actually doing so.
***Smil argues that studies that purport to show how the world could radically reduce or eliminate its carbon emissions by one date or another, tend to presuppose what they claim to be proving.***
**To arrive at the conclusion they want, they rely on a variety of unreliable assumptions. The most common are these.**
\- That existing technologies will be deployed at fantastic rates.
\- That nonexistent technologies will be deployed at fantastic rates
\- That humanity’s ever-growing appetite for energy will suddenly be curbed and everyone will voluntarily adopt a “low energy” lifeway.
Smil labels such studies “the academic equivalents of science fiction.”
**To say that amazing work is being done to combat climate change and to say that almost no progress has been made is not a contradiction; it’s a simple statement of fact.**
*At the time of the Rio summit in 1992 , fossil fuels provided roughly eighty per cent of the world’s primary energy. Thirty years later, fossil fuels still provide roughly eighty per cent of the world’s primary energy.*
**In the meantime, total global energy use has increased by almost two-thirds.**
This is really important to understand because the “hopium” Climate Writers always want to breathlessly tell you how “cheap” renewables have become. How “the market” has priced fossil fuels out of competition with renewables. They always want to convince you that it’s inevitable renewables will replace fossil fuels over the next 30 years.
**The reality is that all of the renewables installed over the last 30 years. Haven’t reduced the percentage of the world’s energy that comes from fossil fuels even 1%.**
**All of the renewables installed over the last 30 years haven’t even kept up with the massive increase (of about 70%) in electricity usage.**
***As long as demand for electricity keeps increasing, our current level of renewable replacement for fossil fuels will keep falling behind. Until that 80% number starts coming down, we aren’t winning, we’re just running in place as things get worse.***
Here’s a really important example.
**The U.S. power grid has been called “the largest machine ever built by man.”**
It comprises more than eleven thousand generating plants, more than six hundred thousand miles of high-voltage transmission lines, and some six million miles of distribution lines.
**Several recent studies claim to show that decarbonizing the grid in the "nearish" future is feasible.**
All of them, involve a certain amount of “science fiction”.
**They describe what is technically possible while glossing over the barriers to implementation.**
These barriers, are huge. Some are economic, some are legal, some are logistical, some are political, and some are legal-logistical or economic-legal-logistical-political.
**Take what’s been called the “transmission quagmire.”**
To clean up America’s grid, it’s not enough to build new generating capacity, or even new generating capacity plus new storage capacity. Power has to be transported from places that have a lot of wind and sun to urban centers that use a lot of electricity.
**Decarbonizing the grid will, by one estimate, demand more than a million miles of new transmission lines.**
**JUST the cost of stringing all these lines will, by another estimate, come to more than two trillion dollars.**
*Does that give you a sense of how laughably inadequate the great victory of Biden’s IRA “win” is?*
*Biden went to COP27 and touted the US commitment of $375 Billion for infrastructure projects as “massive”.*
**We are on the brink of Global Warming causing catastrophic failures in the global food supply. We don’t have time for this “penny ante” investment.**
Reaching net zero in the U.S. will require building out the transmission system while, at the same time, expanding its capacity so that hundreds of millions of cars, trucks, and buses can be run on electricity. It will require installing tens of millions of public charging stations on city streets and even more charging stations in private garages.
The challenge of electrifying vehicles like trucks isn’t necessarily the electricity, as even under worst-case scenarios electrifying vehicles won’t put a massive dent in the electricity supply. The acute problem is how to deliver that electricity to them.
It’s estimated that a new truck recharging station might require a connection to the grid that can handle 5 megawatts. Which would take years to build and cost tens of millions of dollars.
***If we electrify the trucking industry as planned. In 2030, a highway plaza charging stop will require about the same amount of electricity as an outdoor sports stadium, and by 2035 could require as much electricity as a small town.***
Just assembling the electric cars and trucks planned will necessitate extracting massive amounts of nickel and lithium for their batteries. Which will mean siting new mines, either in the U.S. or abroad.
The new cars and trucks will themselves have to be manufactured in an emissions-free manner, which will involve inventing new methods for producing steel or building a new infrastructure for capturing and sequestering carbon.
The list goes on and on. The fossil-fuel industry will essentially have to be dismantled, and millions of leaky and abandoned wells sealed.
Concrete production will have to be re-engineered. The same goes for the plastics and chemicals industries. Currently, ammonia, a critical component of fertilizer, is produced from natural gas, so the fertilizer industry will also have to be refashioned.
Practically all the boilers and water heaters that now run on oil or gas, commercial and residential, will have to be replaced. So will all the gas stoves and dryers and industrial kilns.
The airline industry will have to be revamped, as will the shipping industry.
Farming is responsible for roughly ten per cent of America’s greenhouse-gas emissions, mostly in the form of nitrous oxide and methane. (Nitrous oxide is a by-product of fertilizer use; methane is released by rotting manure and burping cows.) These emissions, too, will have to be eliminated.
**All of this MUST be done in the next 10–25 years on a Global scale.**
We waited until the very last minute to start and now we have to do everything “all at once”. Because if don’t do this together, we will ALL burn together.
**Officially, the U.S. is committed to reaching net zero by 2050. But no one really knows if this is possible in the real world.**
*Because Zeroing out emissions means rebuilding the U.S. economy completely.*
**Right now, we are up against the wall and things are going to get worse.**
I'm mostly just spitballing, but why do we have to electrify trucks? Why don't we just electrify trains, overhaul that, and use that to ship stuff domestically, getting rid of trucks entirely? Wouldn't that be simpler?
That's pretty much how we moved goods around in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The "Great Age of Rail". We could transition back to that kind of transport system. It would be massively more efficient in terms of energy usage.
The issues aren't technical, we can abandon "long haul trucking" and sidestep this whole issue.
But doing it requires a massive shift in our social/economic organization. It "changes" things and about half of our society rejects the need for this change as "woke nonsense".
This issue nicely illustrates the difference between the three "Climate Change Camps".
DENIERS - Don't think we need to do anything.
TECHNO OPTIMISTS - Don't think we need to make any social changes, just "electrify" everything.
DOOMERS - Don't think civilization will last, unless we completely reorganize our societies around new global sustainability principals.
People are going to cling to the T/O's plan for as LONG as possible.
This is such a succinct take on the reality of the green energy fantasy. It’s not gonna happen.
So really we are gonna ride BAU for as long as it will keep us afloat. Things will (and need) to get more and more expensive so people only use their money on necessities. Shrinking BAU more and more. If we don’t degrow preventively it will happen organically, just with way more civil unrest and degradation to nature/quality of life. The wealthy will be insulated so that’s all that matters to them. Until they aren’t.
SS. I'm a bit fed up of liberals and centrists pointing to the IRA to prove that environmental collapse won't happen. Related to collapse because It's locked in, and burning more fossil fuels to make more wind turbines and solar panels isn't going to fix the issue. It's just more of a steal by big corporations pretending to do something. We need massive de-growth now.
> We need massive de-growth now.
what you're saying practically is that the vast majority of the human population needs to die.
and say they all miraculously drop dead tomorrow. still not gonna cut it.
They don't need to die, just stop consuming so fucking much. Work on the field. Play board games and read books. Draw. Love. All these things don't need us to pump billions of tonnes of fucking carbon into the atmosphere.
>We need massive de-growth now.
Good luck convincing millions of people to de-grow, who equate using everything up and consuming with reckless abandon with their way of life and freedoms.
Yeah every time I have a conversation with someone about cars it seems like I'm taking crazy pills trying to suggest something smaller, something that runs in electricity, or suggesting that we build cities where people don't *need* cars.
But it's always "that's not enough room, that's not enough range, it's not fast enough without a car."
Or you suggest it's perfectly reasonable to live in a house with less than 2000 sq ft but then they get all Pikachu faced when the electric bill comes.
People can't fathom having the largest things possible.
>suggesting that we build cities where people don't need cars.
Reactionaries take an objectively good thing like 15 minute cities and turn it into a sinister conspiracy theory. It's maddening.
The huge house thing blows my mind. I grew up as a family of 4 in a 1300sqft house. Sharing a single bathroom where even a modern house of that size would probably have 1.5 or 2 baths.
It was totally fine, except the bathroom. Nowadays people act like you’re living in a shoebox if you dont have 3000 sqft for 2 kids.
Same thing with cars, I had a regular car that easily fit 2 car seats and every single person who saw it couldn’t fathom how I could ever possibly fit in there.
I just don’t get it.
Yep I agree. I never understood why someone would buy a bigger house for no good reason (other than to impress their peers, which is completely stupid and pointless)
Its just more that you have to pay for, before you are able to retire. I value not being forced to work in a corporate environment well above my friends knowing that my house has 3 bathrooms instead of 1
Yeah I literally had a conversation yesterday with someone about EV sizes. I had mentioned that the used EV prices have gotten a lot more reasonable these days.
How did they respond? "A 2019 Model X is still $50,000. That doesn't seem cheap to me!"
Yeah ok, let's use an example using one of the *most expensive cars Tesla has*. And then when I tried suggesting that there are plenty of EVs to be had under 30k, like the Model 3, Bolt, Bolt EUV, ID4, i3, Niro, and Leaf for under $10k, the response was they're all too small.
I'm like, I grew up with my mom owning a Subaru GL sedan, and my dad owning a Hyundai Excel. Once we got out of strollers those cars were *fine*. And every car I mentioned is *way* bigger than either of those.
There's just no point in trying. They'll just keep moving the goal posts, or justifying what they think they need somehow no matter what.
Exactly.
People just don’t get it:
Without a car, I cannot get to my favorite hiking trail. - and? so?
If I can’t fly, I can’t visit my mom twice a year in Florida. - yes that’s right. She moved. Far. You can’t see her. That’s how it works.
50-80 years ago NO ONE did ANY of this shit that you (we) do.
Yeah, I mean, it's like,
>**Environmental Livability,** yes, it's a component to *inflation reduction,* which is a sub-component of *the economy; oh it's* ***backed in the burn rate of petrol, the dollar,*** but that's useful insofar as *if loans to wind turbines.*
Duct tape is good. It is the strongest tape and hella useful. The maddening part of staunch centrists continually pointing to the IRA is that the climate part isn't even duct tape. It's whatever the shittiest kind of tape is. The kind of tape that promises to stick on things but doesn't do shit.
At this point, the problem is too big to solve. We need to reshape the economic and financial systems, and Congress doesn't really have that power.
Collapse seems to be the only viable alternative for significant change of course at this point.
The solutions are so far outside the Overton window that politicians can't even discuss them. Not just in this country, but really in any country.
> Congress doesn't really have that power.
It has the power, but not the political will. Put a large enough carbon tax in place and the economy would reshape itself.
No, but it would get people moving away from the car-centric sprawl. I remember back during the 2008 gas price spike everyone was looking for ways to not have to buy gas, from moving closer to work, to walking or biking, or buying more fuel efficient vehicles.
Then prices went back down and everyone bought giant SUVs and trucks.
The issue is that since oil is so central to the economy, the price will stay within a certain range.
If oil prices go up too much, the economy will contract, demand will go down, and the price will fall. There's no way to maintain high oil prices long term in this economy.
It's a problem markets simply can't fix.
We just need to harness the power of fapping. Think about how many times people fap every day, that energy combined, once harvested, could power a whole Playstation 13 for 2 seconds!
The IRA would have been a great first step had Al Gore become President, followed shortly with a carbon tax. But here we are decades later, and barely beginning to take climate change seriously.
That's right! We the landlords bamboozled you for so long you let everything be destroyed. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be retiring to my bunker in NZ.
Only way we will stop it is someone can make profits.
I thought our goal was to make life better for future generations not ruin it and take many other species out with us.
As an European, I feel a little bit jealous of the IRA. Here there is barely any program to relocate production or to shorten supply lines, we'll head straigt into more debt with subsidies instead of investments.
You probably mean, "Anthropocene", with the systemic issues we're facing, in which "climate change" is only part of it.
But yeah, my man ! People will have a very hard wake-up call when they discover that money is only the representation of energy and matter; once you don't have enough of one of them, you can print 1'000'000 trillions of $, it won't magically make your society of "just in time supply chain" work.
Good luck y'all, as it seems we're really accelerating. \_\\\\//
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Bellybutton_fluffjar:
---
SS. I'm a bit fed up of liberals and centrists pointing to the IRA to prove that environmental collapse won't happen. Related to collapse because It's locked in, and burning more fossil fuels to make more wind turbines and solar panels isn't going to fix the issue. It's just more of a steal by big corporations pretending to do something. We need massive de-growth now.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/16j7hzs/its_far_too_little_far_too_late/k0o648a/
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