I've always wanted a grand national. Was one of my dream cars. Had a 78 turbo regal which was the one that started it all. It was slow lol, but still fun watching that boost gauge light up.
The gnx was incredible and a true testament to the fact the 3800 engine was the best engine GM ever made.
I don’t get why this is special even after watching. 270hp from a 3.8 V6 with a 4 speed auto in 1987 is good I guess. But a couple years later Carlton is doing 380 on a 3.6l and Nissan is doing “276” on a 2.6l.
The problem here is the US EPA. it was the "no fun zone" for a long time. Hell, corvettes only made 180hp in the late 70s and early 80s because of the EPA emissions regulations.
I thought it was attributed to outdated tech? Didn’t Honda install their head to a GM v8 and passed emission without cats? Plus the Lotus 5.7 v8 in the zr1 was making 380.
Engines in the 50s and 60s made that kind of power too. The issue was catalytic converters being mandatory to meet emissions. Honda was able to get around the need for a catalytic converter by using their CVCC engine tech, but it's not like they made crazy power either.
> The issue was catalytic converters being mandatory to meet emissions.
They weren't mandatory, it's the bandaid that auto makers put on their cars to make them meet emissions *instead of* innovating new engines. It was just pure laziness. The fact that Honda, with zero optimization, was able to slap CVCC onto a GM V8 and make emissions standards without losing any power is proof enough.
Yeah, Honda was offering to license it to US automakers to meet emissions, CEO of GM at the time said something along the lines of *"hurr durr works for little baby engines, but not my big Uhhmerican V8"*. Soichiro Honda bought a 5.7L Impala, flew it to Japan, removed all other emissions equipment, slapped the CVCC on it, flew it back and handed it to the EPA to test. Same power, better emissions, better fuel economy, big middle finger.
That's the urban legend. In reality, the EPA's testing showed the CVCC Impala had worse NOx and CO2 emissions than the stock 350, and significantly worse fuel economy (24% worse at 45mph). GM's engineers were right after all.
NOx was marginally higher, not bad for a slapped on CVCC. CO2 was about 25% higher in some scenarios, but CO2 isn't a huge worry and wasn't a worry back then, to the point that while EPA measured it, they didn't have a CO2 target to meet emissions.
And it did get better economy than both the Impala and several other cars with the same engine from GM. All of this per the [EPA's actual report.](http://www.carsandracingstuff.com/library/reports/402.pdf)
So no, it's not an urban legend and GM wasn't right.
-
Honda only got away without cats for a few years, lean burn engines generate a lot of NOx and Honda had to slap cats on by the 80’s to get around it.
Lean burn engines have largely since been abandoned entirely since the mid-2000’s for the same reason.
That's what he was talking about with "Honda installing their head to a GM V8." Honda tested the CVCC technology on a few American engine designs in an attempt to get the Big Three to license the tech from them. These CVCC V8s were decently powerful and would've been a good idea.
The GNX was also likely underrated a bit. [The actual numbers it was running were pretty impressive and a lot better than the stats would suggest.](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a33502193/tested-1987-buick-gnx/)
Can confirm, I owed a 86 T-type Regal very few mods and it was running mid 12's in the quarter. They underrated them because no one wanted to pay showroom corvette prices if there was a Buick that was faster.
I get that power/acceleration times don’t tell the whole tale, but you really have to think i’m context of the times. Let’s look at comparable cars from 1987 shall we?
1987 Buick Grand National Specs (baseline)
276hp
0-60: 4.9 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.9 seconds
1987 Porsche 944 Turbo
220hp
0-60: 6.3 seconds
1/4 mile: 15.5 seconds
1987 Corvette C4
240hp
0-60: 5.9 seconds
1:4 mile: 14.5 seconds
1987 BMW E30 M3
200hp
0-60: 6.3 seconds
1/4 mile: 16.5 seconds
1987 Nissan 300ZX Turbo
200hp
0-60: 7.4 seconds
1/4 mile: 15.6 seconds
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo
230hp
0-60: 6.4 seconds
1/4 mile: 15.4 seconds
The Grand National beat all of these sports/touring cars that are for all intensive purposes, a weight class above, soundly with a crappy 4 speed auto. Before this, the only way Americans knew how to beat another car in a straight line was to throw more displacement at it. Sure brands like Volvo and Saab had been throwing turbos at sedans for awhile and spanking sports cars (can you see my bias here?), but the Grand National was a “hot blooded American Treasure” that embraced “that silly swooshy thang” and got the general American public to like it, all while being genuinely world class (in a straight line).
Sureyou can look a few years and say the Carlton came along and did what it did ama
It smoked all of its same-market competition in a straight line, except maybe the Trans Am Turbo, and it wasn't even close. 270hp was underrated, old dudes used to run 12s in these with just the boost turned up. Stock they ran mid 13s in the late 80s. That's faster than almost all of the late 80s/early 90s Japanese legends that followed (although many of those would be much closer if you dumped the clutch at redline lol)
Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain.
Please use a different source.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cars) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah. As a 40 year old American, I never really wanted a GNX. I mean...i was aware of them, they were cool and all but G-bodies were kinda ugly, their transmission was awful and they weren't really about handling in any way shape or form.
I knew about the Carlton as a kid and desperately wanted one. 6-speed manual and four-doors so it could fit all my friends.
I remember in high school (went to a trade school and did auto tech) our shop teacher bought a super clean stock one for like $20,000 after a field trip to Mucleplaooza. This was back in like 2010. Had no idea about this car beforehand but I was so amazed with it.
Absolutely love the old monte carlo 80s look.
Back then... $60k-$100k, depending on the auction source and quality of the car. Barrett-Jackson tends to be on the high side. It really just depends on the hype surrounding the advertising of the auction.
For reference, I bought my GN in 2007 for $6500.
God damn I wish I had the money 13 years ago that I have today. I would definitely bought a GNX for 60k to have it worth in the neighborhood of 200k 13 years later.
I first saw that car working a summer job at a car wash. I already loved the GN but the GNX was a dream. When I finally saw one, I was obsessed. Considering the time, it was amazing. Modern equivalent may be the CT5-V Blackwing. CT4-V Blackwing maybe a closer comparison because of the V6.
I had an 87 GN for a few years. It's a fun car, but that g-body platform was tech from 1969. Everything they did to the GNX was to work around the platform deficiencies, but even then they didn't cure some of the basics like the fact that the doors were gigantic and would start to sag under their own weight after a while and the windows would always start to get loose, sag and leak as the various seals aged and the window mechanism aged.
The frame was so flimsy that the car would bend slightly under hard acceleration and you would get small cracks in the paint. The paint from the factory on the 87 cars was terrible. All the top surfaces, hood, roof and trunk had some defect and would start to check and flake off.
Thing is, they are still really cool, but I'd want to resto-mod one if I got another. I'd probably just get an 89 TTA instead since I've never had one of those.
I owned n 87 as well. Neat car, but tons of shortcomings. I'm glad I owned one & got to tune on it & hit the track a few times. I still can't recommend them to the average collector that just wants to start-up & occasionally drive these cars. They're very finicky!
It is also incredibly gangsta. Ct4 etc are for upper class white collars.
The only equilevant to the charisma of this are 60s Charger and GTO, 90s Impala SS, and the Challenger Demon to me.
I don’t think most people understand this, or the fact that these things are very rare. Most of the ones people think they saw probably just had a badge and wheel upgrade. I have to think most were snapped up by collectors and never saw the street. Production numbers were higher than a Porsche 959 but less than a Ferrari F40.
I remember having a magazine from back in the day that suggested a lot of them were snatched up by the govt for pursuit vehicles. Even the GNX registry only has 220 of the 547, which seems unusually low.
https://www.gnxregistry.org/Registry-Summary
The SRT-10 is just cool, a guy in my neighborhood has 2. A crew cab and regular cab. He drives one every other day, pretty neat daily driver and they're both stock to this day.
I think that beast got something like 8 or 10 mpg. Cool truck. However, the Syclone is not only quicker, but it has the Buick turbo V6 plus AWD. The Syclone and Typhoon are awesome, I'd love to own one.
I also love Dodge's. I have a '96 12v Cummins 4x4 and a 2009 SRT8 Challenger, 6-speed, Hemi Orange. The tuck is actually technically sold. I have the earnest money, he's flying in next week to pay it off and drive it home. Gonna miss that truck.
Oh yeah, objectively the Syclone/Typhoon were better at both going fast, being trucks, and sometimes doing both in a straight line. The SRT Ram was just the most ridiculous example at the time of taking the largest engine possible and stuffing it in something totally inappropriate.
I've had a BMW E90, E70, Macan S, and Alfa Giulia over the years. Nothing too crazy overall, but certainly some of the best handling cars in their respective segments.
The GNX will easily be outrun and out-handled but most modern cars, but I'm not denying it's cool factor and nostalgia associated with it.
yep... turned off the video about half way, this is a car for people who appreciates it for historical reasons. As a car it's just not great in any way.
Could never understand why they never made a 5 speed with one of these. I remember people bought them new as an "investment", so many in fact that they aren't worth much more than they were when they were 5-10 years old. Too many still in good condition. Fox mustangs are worth more because they all got destroyed.
I so wanted one of the brand new GNX's back in high school. Drove my family's 1981 hand me down Ford Escort station wagon instead. Damn. Saw a GN locally growing up that had the license plate "D Vader".
Bryan? Are you here? If you're a Redditor, I know you will see this video.
Love these cars. I knew a guy from the suburbs of Richmond, VA who had a bunch of turbo Buicks, including GNX #546.
Maybe if we're talking current TG. There is no car show that has surpassed peak Clarkson/Hammond/May Top Gear, and it would take a miracle for one to do so. The combination of presenter chemistry, a budget that allowed them to do expansive features on insanely expensive/unobtainable cars, and the creativity to come up with some of the crazy and hilarious games and challenges they put on is a once-in-a-generation kind of thing.
My Dad was a service and parts manager for a Buick dealer in Pennsylvania back then. He had a few different GN’s as a “demonstration car”. When they got 2000 miles on them they would be sold. I have mountains of stories of the shenanigans that went on back then with grand nationals, and everybody that worked at the dealership.
[here is the car and driver review of the grand national from May 1987 magazine.](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a33502193/tested-1987-buick-gnx/)
> In a world of sleek shapes and refined manners, the GNX is an axe-wielding barbarian laying waste to everything in its path.
> In zero-to-60 performance, the only car available in the U.S. that matches the Buick is the Callaway Twin-Turbo Corvette, and the only one that beats it is the Porsche 911 Turbo, at 4.6 seconds
> At 0.80 g, it has respectable skidpad grip (lol)
lol. fun to read the old review (2 min)... i probably bought the magazine back then. the amount of time i spent analyzing the stats in the back of the magazines... lol. it wasnt like you had google in your back pocket back then to slam dunk on people talking crap on your favorite cars.
great review! had be smiling from ear to ear! :)
I've still got a bunch of old car and motorcycle magazines spanning 2006 or so until Motorcyclist went out of print in 2017 or so. It's still nice to have those references if I'm looking at buying a car or bike from that time period, and there's a creativity in designing a magazine page that you don't get on websites anymore.
There is an old dude that comes to every car show and brings his gnx. He passes out flyers with info on the car and has copies of the dealer build sheet. He has had it since new and will talk anybody who will listens ear off about it. He only drives it to car shows and it has 4k miles. I wonder how much it'll go for if he sells it?
Currently fantasizing about a modern day version on the Alpha platform with the CT4-V Blackwing engine, but the Camaro is 8/10 gonna be an EV crossover so that's like a fairy tale.
Hell yeah. More of this please.
So bloody sick and tired of the same 4 Italian or British supercars, or the same 5 or 6 overhyped German sedans. Love something different like this GNX.
A friend of mine who's Dad was a big muckety-muck at GM had a Grand National. Because of course. It was awesome, and I have to admit that I was jealous.
Today, I like my G8 better, but there's a part of me that would still love to have an old '87 Grand National.
Oh man. I can't wait to watch this! I used to have a T-Type which was a GN in disguise. The Grand National was actually just an appearance package, but the Turbo 6 engine was available in other trims. I miss that car very much. They have a great community of owners who have taken great care of these cars. If there's anyone from MAGNA on here, I hope you all are doing well!
> I used to have a T-Type which was a GN in disguise.
Hell yeah. A GN is *literally* a T-package with a GN-package add-on. Mechanically identical, it just came in more colors. Lots of people used to seek out T-Types specifically because they didn't come with the heavy luxuries the GNs did. GNs had (standard) power windows, power locks, air conditioning, and a Bose sound system. T-Types could be optioned *very* low-spec but still have the T package.
They were also a couple grand less expensive without those "heavy luxuries". Interestingly, I see fewer of those than I ever see GNs; in fact the last time in probably decades was at a car show.
[They sold more GNs than T-Types.](https://www.gnttype.org/general/product.html) They were always kind of rare, especially because they were "just" tricked out Regals, so they got treated like used Regals, not Grand Nationals.
One cool thing about the T-Type is they commonly had a solid roof rather than T-tops that were standard on the GN. No leaks and the body was less prone to twisting...but they still twisted quite a bit because G-body.
My college roommate's dad bought a GN when it was new. He let us take it out for a day, and it was so cool. I used to drive an Olds Cutlass (basically the same car as a Regal) but the Grand National was on another level.
My passenger side mirror suffered a garage accident where I snagged it and broke it off by accident. There was a plastic mounting plate that got brittle and snapped.
Anyways, I went to our local junkyard and went to the first G-body I could find (which happened to be a Cutlass) and boom. New mirror! I spray painted it black and nobody ever knew...
The fact GM made a factory stock Buick which can wipe the floor against the Corvette is amazing in its own right. Even 30 years later this is still a cool car says a lot.
The GNX technically isn't factory. It's like the sledgehammer Corvette. The GNX was tuned by McLaren and the Corvette was tuned by Callaway. Granted the 89 Fire Bird Pace car got the Grand National power train with the GNX upgrades
>Granted the 89 Fire Bird Pace car got the Grand National power train with the GNX upgrades
Except for the rear-end, the cosmetics, and the special turbo parts (which is basically everything that makes it a GNX). They didn't get the ceramic turbo bits that the GNXs did. The TTA turbo part number was the same as a regular GN/T-Type. It did get programming changes, though.
The biggest difference was the heads. They had to adapt FWD GM 3800 heads to fit, instead of using Buick 3.8 heads.
The neat (and possibly unintended) part about that is the combustion chambers on the 3800s1 heads were smaller, bumping compression up a bit over the GNX.
My dad had one of these that he sold to get a down payment on his house. I thought I might be able to get him one for his 60th birthday, so I took a look at prices and LOL nope
132 Comments
Vaeevictisss@reddit
Amardeus1@reddit
AdventurousDress576@reddit
Hunting_Party_NA@reddit
zhiryst@reddit
Hunting_Party_NA@reddit
I_am_a_Dan@reddit
superdude4agze@reddit
I_am_a_Dan@reddit
superdude4agze@reddit
Conscious_Weight@reddit
superdude4agze@reddit
Captain_Alaska@reddit
AndroidUser37@reddit
RunninOnMT@reddit
drnkinmule@reddit
Galligan626@reddit
c0rbin9@reddit
Galligan626@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
Galligan626@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit
SergeantBacon101@reddit
WhipTheLlama@reddit
Hunting_Party_NA@reddit
emurange205@reddit
karlmalone1@reddit
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
AutoModerator@reddit
RunninOnMT@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
0b11111011100@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
Capri280@reddit
count_nuggula@reddit
RunninOnMT@reddit
daver456@reddit
SecretAntWorshiper@reddit
Wheelisbroke@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
Michelanvalo@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
Michelanvalo@reddit
scottb84@reddit
Michelanvalo@reddit
SecretAntWorshiper@reddit
itismee7117@reddit
dingusduglas@reddit
MrBleah@reddit
Wheelisbroke@reddit
pursuer_of_simurg@reddit
dingusduglas@reddit
pursuer_of_simurg@reddit
OGautoflowers@reddit
dumahim@reddit
Carburetors_are_evil@reddit
dingusduglas@reddit
jondes99@reddit
dumahim@reddit
Ab0rtretry@reddit
PalmTreeIsBestTree@reddit
itismee7117@reddit
imightgetdownvoted@reddit
AggravatingZone991@reddit
Alextryingforgrate@reddit
LamentableTerror@reddit
Alextryingforgrate@reddit
LamentableTerror@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
chilidog41@reddit
BeKind_BeTheChange@reddit
rudbri93@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
Bradymyhero@reddit
carguy82j@reddit
Bradymyhero@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
NotCoffeeTable@reddit
rudbri93@reddit
Bradymyhero@reddit
craploadofamishguys@reddit
xtremepsionic@reddit
deuceawesome@reddit
boobumblebee@reddit
SirLaxer@reddit
MikeW226@reddit
BeKind_BeTheChange@reddit
_Los@reddit
Big-Smoke99@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
RandomCreeper3@reddit
c74@reddit
fireinthesky7@reddit (OP)
dang_it_bobby93@reddit
ichyilla@reddit
essaitchthrowaway3@reddit
hwood@reddit
URDREAMN2@reddit
Elimin8r@reddit
sharktoucher@reddit
BasslineFreshDetail@reddit
aggressive_napkins@reddit
MrJCen@reddit
arsenalastronaut@reddit
MotoCommuterYT@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
zeno0771@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
jondes99@reddit
MotoCommuterYT@reddit
MotoCommuterYT@reddit
gogojack@reddit
MotoCommuterYT@reddit
Trades46@reddit
kilertree@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
I_am_a_Dan@reddit
Kevin_Wolf@reddit
zeno0771@reddit
whoareyouguys@reddit
Primantieq@reddit
LuckyLukanka@reddit
zaZZeni@reddit
OGautoflowers@reddit
Educational_Fig_8459@reddit
DooceBigalo@reddit
Pdmnt@reddit
N546RV@reddit
Pdmnt@reddit
RAM_AIR_IV@reddit
AdSlight821@reddit