Do you think everyone is able to learn to code?

Posted by Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit | learnprogramming | View on Reddit | 191 comments

Recently been looking at different careers and have been considering programming. My dad (in his 50’s) with a high school education and in a blue collar job is also interested in learning and has been looking at beginner JavaScript lessons. I have a degree, strong science background, I’m pretty apt at maths although I know that maths and programming don’t have a strong correlation. I’m a fast learner, and have looked at some html/css/JavaScript stuff. Would I be able to learn to code (if I put the effort/hard work in) or do some people just never pick it up? I also would cheer my dad on to learn but worry about him putting in the work and failing at it. And lastly, my goal is to get a work from home job as a junior developer? What are my chances of this

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mdizak@reddit

It all depends on your mindset, personality and genetic pre-disposition. For example, I'm mildly autistic, hence excellent at software development as I naturally have a great technical mind and am a good little problem solver. Another example is I have a nephew who has been diagnosed with ADHD and is starting a 4 year CS degree. I've never said this to him or his parents, but I think it's a terrible mistake for him to go into software. Great guy, highly intelligent, but folks with ADHD shouldn't be sitting behind a computer crunching algorithms 12 hours a day. It'll make them crazy and anxious. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with ADHD, and I think how it's been turned into some disability over the last decades is pure bullshit. 500 years ago having ADHD simply meant you were the best hunter in the village because you could scan the forest / jungle for any movement better than anyone else. He should do something like become a hlicopter pilot who does search and rescue missions, tank commander for the military, airforce pilot, police officer, or and number of things. Something with constant activity where you're constantly required to be scanning your environment. Sorry for the tangent, but anyway, all depends on you. I'm mildly autistic, so I excel at hanging out behind the computer hammering out code and solving problems. Other people have other pre-dispositions that they would excel at. All depends.

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FruitdealerF@reddit

Half the people I work with have ADHD including myself. There is no reason why people with ADHD shouldn't persue a CS degree.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

(P.S. give it a search — though I'm wary of projecting modern diagnoses onto historical figures — current thinking suggests in the last 250 years or so, a large subset of world-changing physicists: ADHD. Probably some good hunters too. Idk!)

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mdizak@reddit

I don't know, personally I view ADHD the same as I view my mild autism. I don't view either of them as disabilities, but instead advantageous as long as harnessed correctly. I think big pharma figured out how to produce things like ritalin, which is when this hole ADHD is a disability became a thing, and now every 11 year old kid is getting diagnosed with it and being told they need to buy pills for the rest of their life. I think that aspect of it is pure bullshit, and is just a ploy by big pharma to make more money. I believe ADHD is a thing, but I also don't believe it's a problem or disability. It's a perfectly normal, natural, and healthy part of the human condition. Same type of thing as if someone tries telling me I'm disabled due to my mild autism, I'll be more than happy to tell them where to go. Only thing that changes is you have to learn to make wiser decisions in your life based on your natural pre-dispositions.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

I'm with you. A lot of the "symptoms" of various disorders are merely highlights of deviation in operating mode from a norm that are only problematic if the predicate "deviation from the norm is problematic" is true! 😆 I often feel like it's predominantly just an incompatibility between individual and mileu: I didn't have many of the hallmark difficulties earlier in life because school for me was a stack of books, the adminition "do these before the end of the school year", and a long test proctored by a school teacher. I got nothing done and was in a state of abject panic almost full time when I tried to emulate the one-class-at-a-time for fixed duration schedule of my peers. Started to just do one subject and then switch or go play in the woods when bored — round-robin, semi-chaotic, but: I ended up loving learning like that. I was voracious. It wasn't until college that I found out that classes are taught from subsets of books. I did book cover to cover, every test, every practice problem or quiz, every subject. I loved it. If I was fried: I was! I could come back to it! The proctor let me take the tests in 20min increments. I suppose he recognized what was going on. Because no one told me learning was supposed to be hard and I didn't have an incompatible metric beating down my self esteem, I loved learning so much and scored in the 99th percentile on every tests I took. If I had been in school, on a schedule, I *might* have stood a chance at graduating, but probably barely + medicated. Instead, I got lots of time running through the woods and learned so, so much more than I would have in the usual environment.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

(I mean, it's not all simple deviation and superpower. Sometimes, my mode is incompatible even with myself or my goals. That can be distressing + requires work. I think that's a human experience, regardless, though).

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

Because I tend to communicate on impulse, sometimes I don't land my intentions too well in text form. So, being explicit: this is anecdotal information for your consideration, not a rebuke or rebuttal, and offered without any pretense of authority. Thanks! I have ADHD. I don't have it in me to even begin to articulate what a constant and lifelong struggle it's been (for me). I wouldn't dare rank it against other things, in terms of severity. (Others have articulated it quite well here; probably, you're up to speed there, and the nature of the thing wouldn't surprise you!). It sounds like it *would* surprise you to know that it seems (anecdotally) to be a disproportionately common trait among architects, domain experts, rapid debuggers, and authors of novel solutions or frameworks. For sure, it can have an adverse impact on schedule and rigor (again, at least for me) — it also appears to be a common trait among people that struggle the most with rote work and cog churn that ought to be a cinch. I'd say it's more a matter of "mode" than "ability." (And many people fare so well, you'd never guess. If you work with other devs, my money's on: some of them have ADHD!). 😄 It's taken decades, but I've made headway on some of the frustrating aspects. Some of the other aspects of it manifest as borderline superpowers! If we've got something going haywire, nestled in the belly of ten million lines of code, and tens of millions of dollars on the line: I'm usually pretty psyched to have someone with ADHD tending to that call! (That's generalizing, of course, but it's a generalization whose genesis is a lot of disasters averted by the quick thinking of our resident "tardy space cadets!"). None of this is to say you're wrong about your nephew, *or* intended as evidence that one disposition is inately better suited to some task or another (certainly, that may be true! I'm just tired + lack sufficient education to state such a thing publicly). All I'm saying is: well, maybe, but maybe not at all. It depends. Thanks for sharing + best wishes. — me, an overtired old techie who signs reddit posts like letters, apparently (P.S. odds are higher than lower that you interact with software — *and* hardware built by software — that I wrote, daily, including whatever you're typing on and significant chunks of the infrastructure that was used to transport the things you own / food you eat, of you're in the US and west of PA. We can get stuff done!🤘)

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mdizak@reddit

Apologies, and I hope I didn't come off as rude or condascending, as that wasn't my intention at all. You are right, if I had a bug in a two million line codebase I couldn't find, I would love someone with ADHD to be on the task versus anyone else as they would excel at it.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

No apologies necessary, I assure you! You took time to openly share a thought (that isn't baseless) with the aim of helping someone meter out a situation. I did the same. You heard me out. I heard you. I'd say between the two of us, we kept part of the soul of the internet alive just now! 🤘

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

No, but I think it has a lot more to do with patience, fortitude, and emotional maturity than "raw intelligence" (by which people usually mean banal pattern recognition and a good memory). People like to think it's an indicator of intelligence. Computers can really only do, like, eight things at all. Aquiring expertise (be it bare metal or non-deterministic parallel workloads) mostly doesn't require genius; it requires resolve. (Certainly, genius helps, but: absent resolve, I'll take a potato over a genius, 100% of the time).

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GLawful__2@reddit

>"raw intelligence" (by which people usually mean banal pattern recognition and a good memory). It's a lot more than that. It's the ability to learn things faster. These people just "get it" while the rest are scratching their heads, and can operate a higher levels of abstraction. It's really the foundation of being able to contribute to new knowledge at the frontier. Of course you needs lots of dedication and hard work too. But Gladwell's 10,000 hrs is a myth in that not everyone can be great at something if they simply work hard and long enough.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

I'm one of those people, btw. Never went to school prior to university (like, at all; just books in the woods). Added a math major because I could just read the text, skip all the classes, ace all the tests, and the subject was a lot of fun. Started programming when I was six. Wrote my first 3D engine when I was twelve. Started my first web company when I was fourteen. Ditto my experience learning things in other domains. It's handy, *for sure!* I just don't think it's requisite for most jobs! 🤣

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GLawful__2@reddit

>Never went to school prior to university (like, at all; just books in the woods). Added a math major because I could just read the text, skip all the classes, ace all the tests, I think that's super impressive. I went to a good math department and that's definitely not the typical background I saw.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

This is maybe a little bit of a topic leap (totally: feel free to ignore), but I muse about math and mathematical ability often. Here's some bloviating for ya: As far as I can tell, one of the unifying features of formal education, regardless of quality, is being inculcated with the belief that learning is hard on the basis of your ease with a particular *framing* of various topics. I personally suspect a not-insignificant percentage of that reflects an "impedance mismatch" between the teaching and the taught, rather than an inherent attribute of the taught. *Of course, not always, and maybe not even close to mostly!* But, the impression I get is that there is a grammatical mode of relating to or expressing mathematical concepts that is *common* but not universal among people that are good at math. As a matter of statistics and because equal ease with multiple framings is rarer than ease with a particular framing, that ends up being the most common mode of relaying said concepts. Second most common is encountering a sequence of teachers that principly understand the thing alternately symbolically, geometrically, as a generalization of a fundamentally quantitative constructs, or as a concrete realization of higher order abstractions. Rarest is: an unbroken sequence of teachers who are equally fluent in multiple framings and possess insight to differentiate by individual and/or students who happen to be able to bridge the gap by adapting to different ways of relating to the same concepts expressed in different ways by different people to varying audiences. Thereafter, many people who would otherwise have grokked it are left convinced (with the backing of institutional authority, and a metric on paper) that they just aren't good at math. (Lucky for me and through means I can claim no credit for, I find it conveniently intelligible, regardless of the particular expression — happenstance, not merit). For sure, a lot of people just *aren't* good at math. But, I suspect there's a not-insignificant subset who *would've* been — which (to me) makes more sense than not if you consider the types of reasoning employed by people doing things that are nominally not mathematical but which are close to analogous in terms of mental procedures. I find the following pairing of facts somewhat telling: - a large percentage of musicians I encounter (I'm a musician) are clearly highly intelligent, are excellent at what they do, and are self-professed "math idiots." - fMRI scans indicate that the performance and understanding of music involves most of the same neural pathways as solving higher order math Again, it's *100%* not for everyone and *there are marked differences in innate ability*, even among the people that *do* get it. But, when people tell me they *are* "bad" at math, I think...well, *maybe*, but...maybe someone sent you the right message on the wrong channel and everyone agreed that it was because your antenna was busted. **Edit:** I'm terrible at taking a compliment, so I think I'm realizing in retrospect that this was a record-settingly long way to avoid saying, "thank you. That was a very encouraging to hear", for fear of claiming to be impressive by acknowledging the comment at all. Sorry about that...

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GLawful__2@reddit

>Rarest is: an unbroken sequence of teachers who are equally fluent in multiple framings and possess insight to differentiate by individual and/or students who happen to be able to bridge the gap by adapting to different ways of relating to the same concepts expressed in different ways by different people to varying audiences. I think many students who get good at math figure out how to take the material and represent it in their minds in a way that they can relate to. That's the skill that I think is important. Nobody every said this to us school or uni so it's something we basically figured out on our own. But more recently, I've found more people trying to convey these approaches more directly. There are some really nice videos from the US math Olympiad coach. [https://www.poshenloh.com](https://www.poshenloh.com) Also some lectures from Terry Tao: [https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/](https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/) [https://www.masterclass.com/classes/terence-tao-teaches-mathematical-thinking](https://www.masterclass.com/classes/terence-tao-teaches-mathematical-thinking) Yeah, I was impressed by your not going to formal school before university.

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Worried_Lawfulness43@reddit

I know this is something you desperately need to believe to substantiate your worldview, but coding is like learning a language. If you speak a language, which nearly everyone does, then you are able to grasp language rules for a computer. The only way to learn a language is practice. That doesn’t make it rocket science.

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GLawful__2@reddit

>I know this is something you desperately need to believe to substantiate your worldview, Huh, honestly think I'm just stating commonsense truth, namely that both native ability plus effort and practice go into most skills. I think somehow we think it's easier to accept this for physical skills like playing basketball but then have some weird beliefs that it doesn't apply at all to mental or intellectual skills or pursuits. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that practice and effort in learning is not important. Just saying that it's a combination of both. You honestly think we can all be like Gauss or von Neumann or Terry Tao if we merely studied maths hard enough from a young age? There are likely differences in their brain wiring at a pretty fundamental level. As for my comments about Gladwell, see the original research that he bases his book on by Ericsson. You'll see that he very much distorts the science and his examples tell a good story but don't match the circumstances studied in the actual research.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

I think we're all mostly agreement and saying it in different ways: varying amounts of intelligence exist; varying amounts are required; diligence is always required. I happen to think it's accessible to more people than some. But, I could totally be overestimating the set of people that can grok it! Worthwhile discussion, I say — I've enjoyed it at least + thanks for sharing! (I don't recall reading yhe expression of any worldviews, though. 😜)

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GLawful__2@reddit

Well, I don't think I expressed a worldview either but the other guy seems to have gotten quite defensive. Anyways appreciate your comments!

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

I get it. It can be a touchy topic and people express different things in the same ways sometimes. Your intentions were clearly, "there's more to intelligence than the reductive way you put it" (you were way politer than the way I've paraphrased; still, that's fair, it *was* reductive) and "don't discount that factor; it *is* important." That's valid and worthwhile! I grokked. Other people have probably seen a hundred similar expressions that were mere preludes to bombastic claims of genius or comments disparaging people who didn't pass calculus with ease. I appreciate your input (and the discussion it engendered!). I have gratitude for intentions, all around. Much thanks for the enrichment and goodwill!

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Worried_Lawfulness43@reddit

We aren’t talking about being a genius we are talking about being capable

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GLawful__2@reddit

Sure ok. I'm just saying that raw intelligence (or generalized or fluid intelligence) will impact how quickly someone will learn coding and that there are genuine differences in ability to learn coding (in my personal experience) that go beyond effort level. Not telling anyone to quit or not try.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

Clarifying: I didn't mean "there's no such thing as raw intelligence," or that it doesn't matter. I meant often what people are championing as raw intelligence is conveniently reduced to being mostly composed of those two things in contexts where those traits make picking up a specific skill *easier* — especially from people who had an easy time of picking up those skills by virtue of having those traits! There *are* differences in intelligence, of course. Of course, there are differences in modes of thinking. Some of those things are gaps that cannot be bridged with just practice. (I did lead in with "no" 😄). I'm just saying, in terms of success in the field, certainly there is a threshold for intelligence — like with everything: driving, analyzing literature, whether or not it's responsible for you to be given metal dining utensils, etc — but people overestimate the contribution of giftedness to a skillset for which it is frequently not a prerequisite. It doesn't hurt to be really smart, of course! It's just, a quarter of a century working with other programmers hasn't led me to value that alone as having much predictive value at all regarding the quality of a person's work or their level of expertise they attain. Certainly, among the best, that kind of intelligence is not uncommon! ... I'm just wary of asserting that kind of intelligence as necessary, on the fsce of it. In part not due to disagreement, but due to the selective nature by which many people consider that kind of intelligence to have/have not manifested, and the fact that that often reflects a certain learning style and life history more thsn it does a brain. These are people I know: Person A: nails every math test they ever took and nominally excels at programming, but has difficulty communicating effectively with non-programmers. Can't teach. Delivers ideal solutions late when a pragmatic one would've done. Person B: runs a small mechanic shop, started flunking every math test they took in 7th grade. Can diagnose problems, with precision, across hundreds of models of cars — including makes/builds they've never encountered. Predictable estimates. Can teach other people effectively and has a good rapport with their customers. Person C was put in remedial classes, dropped out, and barely got into the military by virtue of some written test. He took an IQ test to suss the situation out: 80's. Person B is smarter and more able in the same ways and more than person A — they just had a spate of bad teachers in high school, so they think they're bad a math. (That unknown-engine diagnostics by trying and analyzing the behavior and interaction of parts: I'm sure we both recognize that as the same type of analysis we perform in debugging and which lends itself well to design — because you have the ability to mentally project out many parallel pieces and successfully anticipate what their interactions will be). Person C learned how to fix radios from an old-timer on an aircraft carrier and realized his learning style was different than what was expected of him in school. Got out, got a math tutor, went to a small liberal arts college, took chemistry, went to a prestigious doctoral program, got his PhD, and ended up being one of the most prolific authors in the field of computational chemistry — some of his work was critical in the development of semiconductor processes used to build a bunch of what's in your phone. So, you're not wrong that there's a threshold, but I think, as a society, we're not too clever at determining who actually has that kind of intelligence and we generally overestimate the threshold. In my experience, people who think they're smart overestimate and people who think they're not smart underestimate. Not infrequently the thing that didn't manifest on paper manifests in practice. I have fifteen years of experience now in assembling extremely prolific teams who have churned out genius solutions — making money for the business via stable, maintainable, grokable, software that makes everyone's lives better as a side effect — often exactly by betting against the usual metrics on a pick-by-pick basis. Disproportionately represented among people that churn out horrid code: people that think you need to be a genius to program and lack the insight to realize they're not geniuses! 😄

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GLawful__2@reddit

I think you are pointing out the intelligence has multiple dimensions. Traditionally we've focused on analytical/mathematical/logical reasoning as a key dimension but for sure there are other dimensions that are important for one's life and career.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

I think I meant that even the same dimension can manifest through different means, but only some means have a sort of canonical representation that is widely recognized. But, that also (multiple dimensions) is certainly true and a worthwhile point!

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

HAHAHA! Ah, sorry, and I got off topic anyway. TL;DR: I'm not saying intelligence doesn't exist / isn't a factor. I'm just saying often, the make/break factor isn't "level of intellect" it's "resolve."

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canibanoglu@reddit

I think everyone is able to learn how to "code". In general, most people have the mental facilities to follow to logic in a piece of code and duplicate it after enough time. However, that's about what they will be good for mostly. Nothing wrong with it, either. Those who are really good at it are naturally wired different. You can learn how they think, how they approach problems and how they deal with them. But in a real life scenario, the difference is known/felt by people around you. The world needs both. I haven't read the other comments or why you thought people are gatekeeping. This is the hard truth of life, some people are better at things than you are, no matter how much better you think you apply yourself. I could say the same thing about running or cycling as a hobby and compare the situation to professionals and it would be the same.

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lifeiswonderful1@reddit

Let him go at it - as a TA I find people’s true temperament really shows whether they can handle coding when they have to debug, trial and error for a few days. I would say a good chunk give up any SWE hopes during their first course and then a larger chunk pivots to other careers during their first discrete mathematics course. I would encourage your dad; you might be pleasantly surprised. If anything it will help him figure out faster what other careers he should go into.

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slash_networkboy@reddit

I'm an SDET, so my whole role focuses on correctness. I can tell you who went to (only) bootcamps and who has a CS or related degree with a fairly high certainty just based on the types of bugs I get in their code and the quality of the code once returned to me for re-testing. If someone went to a bootcamp to learn another language but already either had a degree or the experience to back it then I think they're really useful, but to use only a bootcamp to learn programming is ultimately making your early career pretty hard IMO. As to OP's question about remote for Jr roles; I think that, in particular, is going away. I'm in a remote only company but we're not looking at anyone who isn't experienced, and preferably in a Sr level. I'm seeing similar with my peer group in other comparable positions.

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Message_10@reddit

Would you share what types of bugs you see, and how, as a self-taught programmer, could avoid these mistakes? I’m making my way through The Odin Project and loving it, but fear the obvious problem of failing behind colleagues who have CS degrees.

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Gomeztheking@reddit

Have you check TripleTen?

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Message_10@reddit

I had not, but that sounds very much like something I’d be interested in. Thank you! Are you affiliated with them / did you use their program?

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Gomeztheking@reddit

I work here let me know if need more info!

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Message_10@reddit

I looked at the website—very nice! What’s the class size? And when does the next one start after the September one?

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Gomeztheking@reddit

Message me your email!

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Message_10@reddit

Would you dm me here?

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Gomeztheking@reddit

Yeah that's cool!

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GLawful__2@reddit

You can take CS courses from top departments at Coursera and EdX on fundamental CS topics like algorithms, discrete maths, ML, etc.

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Message_10@reddit

Thank you! Will do. I’ve heard good things about the Harvard basic CS course—I’ll start there.

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thepirschy@reddit

Aspiring Jr. Dev here. I’m wondering your take on whether Jr. Devs are being outsourced to Sr. level software engineers who can leverage AI in their place. Is it unlikely for new devs to get into the field? Or at least more difficult? I don’t have a CS degree however I may be embarking on a software engineering apprenticeship through a platform called Multiverse.

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notislant@reddit

I mean people are sending thousands of apps and get 1 reply for junior positions in general. Its rough.

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darkingz@reddit

I haven’t seen too many devs directly replaced by AI (it’s way too new and the bigger problem is that the LLMs right now leak confidential data to the LLM by design). The bigger problem is the cooling of the entire market due to the repeated layoffs from the top companies. Suddenly lots of companies are able to hire top programmers that they wouldn’t have before or have been tightening their belt resulting in less jobs overall and why hire a “non productive member” when you can hire quality. I view this as extremely short sighted because even if you could just forever swear off junior devs, you gotta get a bunch of senior devs from somewhere.

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thepirschy@reddit

It’s nice to hear some optimistic perspective on this subject. I’ve heard from people who are likely just having a frustrating time getting their foot in the door that “Jr. Devs are doomed” lol

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darkingz@reddit

It’s extremely likely that our work future as devs will look different in a decade if we get that far. Suddenly you need people to decide what AI output and talk to AI in a very specific way and make sure that the output is correct. Will it maybe make people go faster? Sure. But by the time the entire dev community is automated, why would you have a product manager? You could use AI to tell another AI what to build. Unfortunately the less skilled of us will have less options but really that will be the entire market and by that mark, why would you have a senior dev price for what a junior dev could do with a junior dev and AI? Really there are so many paths this could go down that most people can be about the future is that show you can adopt the tool better than anyone else and maybe you can weather the industry shift that will occur.

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slash_networkboy@reddit

Nah. Just that I think Jr devs are not going to have an easy time getting remote only positions.

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tonjohn@reddit

At Microsoft I had the pleasure of managing a Bootcamp grad with no prior programming experience and a college intern at the same time. They each had their pros and cons but the end result of their work was roughly the same.

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sweetfeet009@reddit

I would assume at Microsoft be it boot camp or grad you're going to be getting the best of the best regardless.

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tonjohn@reddit

You know what they say about assuming

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eleven8ster@reddit

Your response is a great answer. Ideas come from ideas so try something out. It’ll give you ideas.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Yeah, appreciate you saying that. I’ll encourage him to have a go at it

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VRT303@reddit

Biggest pitfall I noticed for newbiew with degrees is making a convulted inheritance and abstraction mess instead of more composition over inheritance. Bootcampers or self thought always forget or don't know how to compare floats honestly, probably because they didn't learn the details of how a number is actually stored (I remember I had to make binary and decimal convertors from scratch as homework and a teacher made us do binary math on paper to drive the floating point home). Off by one as well, I remember having implemented a very detailed visualization UI with a from scratch algorithm of FIFO in a class test show exactly where the head and tail are and allowing a user to input new values to see what happens. Reading, writing or modifying files (IO) over goes bad too. I just had to debug two async workers that touchen the same file one after the other, but the second overwrote half of the results of the first. Now that depends on the school and actual work, but explaining why this Databse Table design wasn't hood enough went easier when the other person had a class on Normalization and maybe even how data from a database is actually stored on the harddrive. Both have just a bad time adjusting to slightly older or rushed features in existing code.

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openhearted@reddit

No. When I was in school, it was clear that some people are wired for it & some are not. Logic combined with a flexible and creative mind makes the best programmers. Realistically, your dad will be facing ageism in the job market. He's probably going to have a difficult time finding work, just entering this field in his 50's. If he does want to try it, I'd suggest approaching it from the perspective of personal growth. If he finds that he's good at it, he may buck the odds. As for fearing that he'll try and fail, rethink that. Failure is our greatest teacher & there's nothing wrong with it. The only thing I would fear is accruing school debt at his age.

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_rrx007@reddit

I think everyone is able to learn the syntax but cannot be a programmer.

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ParadoxicalInsight@reddit

In theory, yes. In practice no. You know how every class the grade of all the students forms a bell curve? It turns out that the intro to programming class is a bit of an exception, it’s two bell curves, those who get it and those who don’t. I still think it’s possible to change groups, but data indicates that, at the least, it’s very hard

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fensizor@reddit

In my opinion, as a junior developer office is a much much better environment than wfh.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Why?

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Spatula_Thief@reddit

I'm a lead developer. If I was hiring an entry-level developer with less than 2 years' experience, there's no way I would let them work fully remote from day one. They simply don't have the track record to justify that. If the entire team works fully remote, that's a different story. But it's rare for companies like that to hire entry-level developers when they can hire experienced devs from abroad for a third of the cost.

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Silent_Buyer6578@reddit

Junior dev working fully remote 😎 As you said though, team is fully remote. We also sit on discord all day with each other, it’s cool I like it.

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fensizor@reddit

Imo onboarding is easier when you interact with your team in-person. Asking for help and receiving help is easier too. And you'll be learning something valuable and useful from your coworkers while on lunch break and stuff. Also, if the company is only hiring locals and not people from the entire country -- less competition for you.

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Twanx@reddit

It's a skill, with enough dedication anyone can learn it, some will learn faster than others of course. Those saying "no" must think they're some unique geniuses or something.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

condescending twats who think they’re Einstein lol

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Silent_Buyer6578@reddit

Did you want opinions? Or validation? It seems that you are only after opinions which affirm your decisions and say your dreams will come true. Some of these comments point out a harsh reality. Lots of the stuff you need to be able to do can be learned, but you will have to be open to hearing things you don’t like if you wish to work professionally because it will happen a lot and if you respond to that the way you do to this, you won’t last very long.

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No_Simple3203@reddit

? you wanted opinions, why do you favor only the ones that agree with you and what you want to hear? just do and find out yourself

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sohfix@reddit

>they’re 😂

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Yes?

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Cyberdrunk2021@reddit

Something wrong?

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Passname357@reddit

Not at all. For instance, someone with Down syndrome could not learn to code. I’m not better than them, and it doesn’t make me a genius to be smarter than them, but objectively it’s a think they cannot do.

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Twanx@reddit

Do I really need to edit my post to list disabilities that make you unable to code? It's obvious. I don't think the OP's question was about this.

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Passname357@reddit

There’s a range of people in between, many of which aren’t classified as disabled, and many of which are unable to learn to code. It’s not a knock against them. It doesn’t make any of us who can code better than them (in fact, I’m sure I’d like a lot of them more than many programmers I know). But it is just a fact of life. Can everyone dunk a basketball? No. Can everyone code? No. Neither is a bad thing, it’s just a thing.

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BothWaysItGoes@reddit

If you think you are as talented for singing as Taylor Swift, as talented for guiding talk shows as Larry King, as talented for physics as Isaac Newton, as talented for managing a football club as Pep Guardiola, then humble yourself. It is a skill, with enough dedication you can learn something. Will it be enough for a career? Maybe, maybe not. Realising that I can be naturally bad at some activities doesn’t mean I think I’m a genius. It’s completely the opposite.

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Cyberdrunk2021@reddit

And yet, Taylor swift isn't the most talented singer, Larry king isn't the best host, Newton wasn't the only one who discovered shit, pep isn't the genius you think he is. That's honestly such a dumb argument. There are people you never heard of who are simply better than the famous ones you know.

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BothWaysItGoes@reddit

> And yet, Taylor swift isn't the most talented singer, Larry king isn't the best host, Newton wasn't the only one who discovered shit, pep isn't the genius you think he is. So what? The argument still stands. I probably would never be as good as Pep at coaching even if he is not the greatest coach ever or whatever. (I neither watch football nor listen to Taylor Swift, so I don’t really care about your personal opinion about them particularly). > That's honestly such a dumb argument. There are people you never heard of who are simply better than the famous ones you know. The argument is not about fame. You are pretty dumb if you think it is. They are just famous examples of people with above-average ability.

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Cyberdrunk2021@reddit

It makes zero fucking sense. You just contradicted yourself. Wtf was even your point? People can't as good as Andy Malone? Who the fuck are you to say that?

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BothWaysItGoes@reddit

What exactly do you have hard time with? What do you feel to be contradictory? > Who the fuck are you to say that? Who the fuck are you to say that Isaac Newton is just a mediocre physicist with no special talents?

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Cyberdrunk2021@reddit

Lamea attempt to change the cards on the table. Too late for that.

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BothWaysItGoes@reddit

You will never be good at physics as Newton. You will also never be good at programming. That doesn’t make me a genius, it just makes you a moron, sorry, such is life.

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Cyberdrunk2021@reddit

I don't care, but you're also focusing on the wrong side of the argument and still aren't getting it. I don't know how can you do your job without the part of your brain that makesmyou think. Give it up. You're wrong.

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Worried_Lawfulness43@reddit

People who think like this are fascinating because you can tell they’ve been waiting their entire lives to be better than SOMEONE.

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BothWaysItGoes@reddit

I am sure all people who think are fascinating for you.

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Worried_Lawfulness43@reddit

Where did you learn that, the middle school lunch room? If this is as intellectual as the conversation can get, I know for sure you can be an idiot and a programmer.

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chain_letter@reddit

I'll say some people will never learn to code due to material circumstances. For the same reasons some cannot go to a university, the cost of living does not go away, and work and toil must be done to stay off the street. Some people have dependents and 60+ hour workweeks starting from an early age. So no, I think some people are unable to learn to code. Maybe if they were luckier in their circumstances, they could have the resources to support their learning. I think job training policies and social safety nets are important for people to self actualize and grow. All workers deserve their needs met with 40 hours of work.

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Gomeztheking@reddit

Yes, but a lot of people don't have what it takes to put in the work.

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UndevelopedMoose222@reddit

I think this is the right answer. Assuming one doesn’t have a learning disability, it all comes down to willingness and effort.

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Harregarre@reddit

There's also affinity. Some people just do better at one thing than the other. I mean, in high school we had to do three foreign languages, as well as maths/physics/chemistry. Quite often people who did well at languages were weaker at the exact sciences, and the other way around. Just like you can't just tell an introvert to become a people person through willingness and effort. An introvert may learn to cope and hide the anxiety, but they won't become an extrovert.

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UndevelopedMoose222@reddit

But they do learn, don’t they? They might not be the best at it. They might get a C to barely make it, but they can learn. Not having affinity for something makes it harder to learn because you don’t like that something, but if you’re willing to put in the work you can learn. Being an introvert is not a matter of learning, it’s a personality trait, and even then some introverts learn how to mirror other people's personalities to blend in.

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Harregarre@reddit

>Being an introvert is not a matter of learning, it’s a personality trait, and even then some introverts learn how to mirror other people's personalities to blend in. Takes a lot of energy. My point is that while everyone can learn, different people have to expend different amounts of energy to complete the same task. When it comes to intellectual tasks, people seem to think it's just a matter of "applying yourself". You don't expect a small-framed guy to carry things at a dock like a more sturdy guy, right? You can definitely teach the small guy to carry things, but give him the same load as the big guy and he'll buckle.

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Silent_Buyer6578@reddit

Being naturally predisposed to the analytical mindset required to become a programmer is certainly an advantage. However, how much of an advantage is often overstated. It gives you a slight head start but it does not mean you finish the ‘race’, so to speak, in a better position. I would put myself in the category of not necessarily having a natural aptitude, my background is very arty and I transitioned in my early 20s, going back to university to do CS. At the beginning, yes it was bad, I was near the bottom of my class and some people around me seemed to just be naturally good. By the end, I graduated top, and now I’m a back end developer. Now, yes I had to put in significantly more effort to bridge that gap, but once the gap is bridged, it’s bridged. If you took me and one of my peers and gave us a new programming paradigm to learn, it’s not as though that gap sporadically appears again, as programming is about compound knowledge and a way of thinking, once you gather that knowledge and adopt that thinking it’s not as though you lack something else which keeps you on the back foot. Going off the lifting analogy, if the small guy trains and gets bigger and becomes on par with the big guy, they become equal from there on after. Unless we are talking natural build and structure, but thinking is a different beast, people can and do change how they process information.

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Gomeztheking@reddit

Also I think some people just aren't as interested in dev as they think they are. All part of the journey.

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UndevelopedMoose222@reddit

Agreed. And even if they are… it’s all fun and games until it becomes a job and they have to do it for a living.

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Gomeztheking@reddit

Good point for sure.

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OtherTechnician@reddit

No. Not everyone can wrap their heads around all of the concepts required to write working code.

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Anji_Mito@reddit

Anyone can code, not many can debug, and that is where the problems comes

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reverse01@reddit

Sorry but its too late for him. Fresh CS graduates are struggling to get a job, so why would anyone hire a 50 year old man.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

As far as I can tell, ageism in tech mostly came and went... "Top of class at <insert prestigious university>" vs "got mad at a CNC machine twenty years ago, started digging, and...well, here we are" + "we need this solved yesterday" = they're paying the old-timers top dollar. (Or, at least, in my experience + domain-dependent, I'm sure). Fresh CS graduates are mostly an investment, not an asset. Depends on the nature/immediacy of the problem, I suppose.

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Quick_Butterfly_4571@reddit

And not just old-timers (i.e. people that have been programming a long time), also just people that have been around the sun a bit! One of the best programmers I ever worked with: high school diploma + was a schoolbus driver into his early 50's, studied, made the switch, was making six figures when I met him at 60. He's one of probably a dozen I've worked with who started in their 50's. Maybe it's harder, but people do it! (My *mom* taught herself basic web making skills, including CSS and html so she could modify or create templates and made web pages for local small businesses for a while. She was in her late 50's when she set out to *start* learning!). I don't mean: it's a certainty. I just mean, it's not a preposterous thing to try. Success isn't certain, but neither is failure.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

So ageism is involved in the recruitment process? You sound like a gatekeeper

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PizzaAndTacosAndBeer@reddit

> So ageism is involved in the recruitment process? Absolutely it is. I didn't make the rules and u/reverse01 probably didn't either. Being aware of what they are helps us all navigate the world we live in.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Ok, and there’s no need to be so condescending

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dj_daly@reddit

It's not this guy's fault ageism exists. Your dad should be given kudos for attempting to better himself regardless of his age, but the cold reality is that finding work for people over 50 is difficult regardless of whether it's programming or not. If he is serious about getting a junior dev job, he has a very large mountain to climb.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Fair enough

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Candid_Medium6171@reddit

Anyone can learn to code, anyone can learn to do anything. Talent is a lie, consistency is everything.

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NotATuring@reddit

There some folks who insist anybody can learn anything. \*shrug\* I think those people are wrong. Most people can probably learn some degree of programming skill. I don't want to discourage people from pursuing dreams. With that said you'll be competing with A LOT of people for a limited amount of jobs, at least right now. So you learn to do "X" well there's 100 or more other people who can do X who are applying for the same job.

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retro_owo@reddit

Learning programming has nothing to do with getting a job

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liquidInkRocks@reddit

\> maths and programming don’t have a strong correlation. Programming ***is*** all about math.

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mimavox@reddit

No it's not, unless youre doing advanced algorithms at a theoretical level. Basic bread-and-butter coding requires almost no math. What you DO need is a logical mindset, and think in similar ways that you would do in i math class, but this is something that can be trained.

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retro_owo@reddit

I use math every single time I program anything.

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liquidInkRocks@reddit

>Basic bread-and-butter coding requires almost no math. You contradict yourself in your next sentence. Logic is a branch of math.

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mimavox@reddit

Nope, it's the other way around. Go read Bertrand Russell :)

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stevefuzz@reddit

No. The majority of CS majors at my school failed or switched. It is not easy and takes a specific kind of brain to be good at. Can anyone do a boot camp? Yes.

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coffeewithalex@reddit

Just like everyone is able to learn a second human language, everyone is able to learn to code. How good? How fast? How much they can do with it? Will they like it? - those are all completely different questions from your original one, that actually impact the end result a lot. Someone who learned to code but isn't very good at it, won't get a proper job in the field, so did they "learn to code" by your definition?

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notislant@reddit

If he fails he fails? You should both do the odin project if youre learning javascript... Its free and has much needed structure. Paid courses and youtube videos will waste your time. It also has a support discord where people help you figure out solutions to issues. Math really isnt a major issue.

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pLeThOrAx@reddit

Given enough time, I think anyone can learn anything. Point moreover is would they want to? The second point is a decent metric for success. You'll be practicing, reading, learning in your own time. Tackling concepts above your level. Getting beaten down and having the resolve to try again. A drive of passion. If you love and want to code, you have a better chance at succeeding. But it isn't the full story...

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Brilliant_Bluebird_8@reddit

No

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bostonkittycat@reddit

I think most people can learn to program. In my experience as a lead not everyone likes to program as a profession and some decide it is not the right field for them after learning it. Maybe about 25% switch careers to non-programming positions. Happens in every profession to a degree.

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ern0plus4@reddit

>I’m pretty apt at maths although I know that maths and programming don’t have a strong correlation. Yes. What you need: to be humble, cold headed, very humble, self-reflected. In other fields, you can say: "hey, dude, move your fat ass, and do your job, before I kick your pants", or "sweetie, can you help me please, I just got stuck, oh, thank you" - computers are not buying these energies. Your program is working or not, there is no "just push a little harder" or, "it will work a bit later", "it does not matter, it's only a small part". It's **very hard** to accept. You *are* stupid 99x, then if you figure out finally, what have you been messed, you are *smart* 1x, and at the end of the day, the summary is that you're 9999x stupid and 5x smart.

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Wild-Storage-1663@reddit

It doesn’t depend on the age. Not everyone is able to get the skills that make you able to become a good developer because there is much more too it than just coding. The coding itself is often the easiest part that takes the least amount of time on my job. Can everyone learn to code? Yes definitely. Can everyone become a commercial developer? Definitely not.

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Individual-Praline20@reddit

No. As not everyone can be a mechanic or a nurse or a salesman, it’s the same for coding. Not for everyone.

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Spatula_Thief@reddit

Is it possible for a full-time working adult in their 50s with a mortgage and bills to dedicate the time and effort to become an employable junior programmer? Yes, but it will be an uphill struggle, and you will be competing with youngsters with lots of time to train and few responsibilities. Is it possible for someone without such responsibilities? Definitely.

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TrickWasabi4@reddit

I was a TA für 3 different introductory programming classes back at uni and I didn't ever encounter a person where I felt they didn't have the ability to learn to code. The one pattern I encountered in a lot of folks was that they have a tendency to overestimate their own understanding of almost all basic concepts and afterwards continued while the knowledge-holes snowballed from a lack of basics into a huge wall.

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Xtianus21@reddit

Yes.

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ceeqou@reddit

Yes but it won't be fun if they don't enjoy it

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RawbarONE@reddit

I believe so, yes. I just started learning - 9 months, 6 months more seriously and I'm 36. I had to - for personal and health reasons change careers. You have to have a plan and stick to it. It's all about how disciplined you are and how dedicated you are. I do struggle, especially when I get to this I never touched in online course (took CS50). But being in a community of programmers or in my case in group of programming friends helps a lot. It helps when you're stuck or frustrated and they can motivate you or nudge you in a right direction.

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Bhejafried@reddit

I am 51 and just built my first program using python and react. Age is no barrier, if he wants to create software let him.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

That’s so inspirational. Are you planning to secure jobs once you gain enough skillsv

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EmptyJustLikeHeaven@reddit

Yes . Is it worth it to teach a person from scratch ? No.

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tms102@reddit

Everyone that can form memories can learn how to code. However, whether or not everyone can be good and efficient at it is a different question.

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LoneWolfThrowAway@reddit

>I’m pretty apt at maths although I know that maths and programming don’t have a strong correlation. Hmmm... they're not exactly the same thing, but usually someone who's good at maths is also good at programming. It's simply a different way of looking at a problem, but the level of complexity is very similar. I think everyone can code. I don't think everyone can be a software engineer though. It's easy to code HTML and CSS, all that's required is patience and willingness to learn. Javascript is a bit more complex and annoying, but can also be learned. It's when you get to a deeper level that things start to become really difficult. At that point not everyone can do it, and that's ok. Had to learn that lesson the hard way unfortunately.

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Gra5uXXS@reddit

No, definitely not.

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Wilde__@reddit

I think everyone can code, I don't think everyone should seek to do it professionally or could be a great programmer. I find it similar to math. Everyone should be able to do basic arithmetic. Not everyone is going to be able to understand derivatives well or want to.

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Click_To_Sign_In@reddit

I think most people, barring intellectual disability can probably learn to code. That's not to say they'll reach the top of the game, but few of us do. I won't, you probably won't, 99.9% of the people here won't.

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internetbl0ke@reddit

Absolutrly

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d9vil@reddit

Failure is part of programming. You cannot be a developer if you dont have the ability to deal with failure. You will fail over and over again, but you have to be able to pick yourself up and continue. You have to be able to ask for help when you are stuck and stick with the task at hand. This is the life of a programmer.

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CaptainCapitol@reddit

Everyone can learn to code. Not everyone can apparently learn to decompose problems to code blocks. Which is essentially what your employer is asking for.

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VRT303@reddit

Absolutely everyone can learn and be decently good given enough time, the right learning style/material, relatable allehories and practice, practice. PS: I can asnwer questions / help out if anyone needs a nudge (free of charge)

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Mutex_CB@reddit

Failure is part of it, that’s why they made troubleshooting! Anyone can learn to code, it’s just syntax (everyone looks the simplest stuff up all the time so don’t worry about it) and logic. Once you get an idea of the general toolset (ways to approach and break down problems) those logical skills transfer to anything

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BothWaysItGoes@reddit

> Do you think everyone is able to learn to code? No. > I’m pretty apt at maths although I know that maths and programming don’t have a strong correlation They have a strong correlation. > I also would cheer my dad on to learn but worry about him putting in the work and failing at it. Every person reaches a soft plateau. You will never know how fast you reach it and how high it is unless you try. At some point during your journey you will see how fast you progress and how much you struggle and you will make a judgement call whether it makes sense to continue.

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YARATIWD@reddit

No. Many of my classmates (BS of CS) couldn't learn.

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Dels1x@reddit

Obviously, of course. It just comes down to patience and time

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theOrdnas@reddit

Anyone can learn to code but not everybody that's trying to learn programming will become a good coder

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enraged_wookie@reddit

The “anyone can learn to code” thing doesn’t translate to “anyone can have a career with code”. It sounds like you are already someone who has an aptitude for logic and problem solving considering your background, so I’m sure you would make the switch just fine.

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RARELY_TOPICAL@reddit

In order for you both to be engaged, you'll need to start on some projects to feed your motivation. build a website (r/webdev), scrape some data from a site and convert it to a csv (r/webscraping), analyze some public data and make some charts and graphs (r/datascience)... pick anything pertinant and interesting and go for it. This will get you hooked.

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nmnnmmnnnmmm@reddit

Hell no

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babypho@reddit

Everyone is able to learn code imo. But not everyone will be able to get hired just because they learned how to code. Especially in this market.

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mystarkfuture@reddit

No

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seynalkim@reddit

This is the good thing about being a dev or programmer. There is no age limit to it and everyone can learn it.

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Ok_Transition_4796@reddit

No, but a lot of people could.

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Mjlkman@reddit

Learning to program is extremely easy, being consistent is the pain itself. Without consistency you fall off

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AwesomeNerdyCat@reddit

anyone can, just with dedication sone learn it fast, sone don’t. But there is no “one day” way.

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arcticslush@reddit

Everybody has the capability to learn, some pick it up easier than others. I TA'd a lot of intro courses and it's very clear to me usually in the few couple of weeks the divide in the class between those who "get it", the ones who will struggle with it, and the ones who will clearly hate it. In my opinion, it's largely a personality thing and has little to do with how smart you are. Some people have the patience and appreciate the precision required, others give up too quickly - and that's perfectly fine, but I would never recommend it as a career to anyone it's not well suited for. There's better things to do.

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Top_Visit_2067@reddit

No

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Independent-Disk-390@reddit

Coding vs the science behind it are two different things. If you’re dedicated you can learn to code.

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vito_corleone01@reddit

Anyone can learn it, some quicker than others.

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This-Silver553@reddit

Nope. Personally to learn to code you need to MASTER sitting at the computer for hours!

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PizzaAndTacosAndBeer@reddit

> although I know that maths and programming don’t have a strong correlation There's a meme on r/ProgrammerHumor making fun of calling JavaScript array.sort() and the results being 1, 200000, 36, 4. This happens because that set is being sorted alphabetically, not numerically. My point is that modern programming is very divorced from math unless you're doing something very specialized. > And lastly, my goal is to get a work from home job as a junior developer? What are my chances of this This isn't really a programming question, it's a social and career one. There are companies that have fully embraced WFH, some that are fighting tooth and nail, and the entire spectrum between them. In general it's much easier to land at least some WFH with more experience, but everything is on a state of flux and the rules are somewhat fluid. Your best bet is being very choosy when applying.

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valhalkommen@reddit

In terms of the work from home, I’ve seen multiple people say that juniors wanting to wfh is a lot harder nowadays, than it was back in 2020 (of course cause of covid) to 2021, but now everyone wants to be back in office, regardless of experience. Since the experience threshold is so much higher now than it was back then, you’d most likely need to have extreme luck, or a good education nowadays, cause most juniors aren’t getting hired in general.

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TheAntiSnipe@reddit

I agree to a extent with this, however, there’s parallels that I’ve seen. I’ve worked closely with mathematicians in my time in research and I’ll say that there’s some very nice skills that port over. Problem reduction, logical thought, and algorithms being a few. A lot of skills that are in qualified mathematicians can be seen in qualified programmers. Though I must say, reading their code is… An experience. But hey, that can be learned. People say that if you hate math, you’ll hate programming, but I’d say that’s a false correlation. I love math and have had a great time with programming, but I know very successful engineers among my peers who are good at it without liking math much at all.

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DrThalesAlexandre@reddit

What do you mean by everyone? There are people in this world who can't even learn to read or write, who barely understand human language due to mental disabilities. Can an average person learn to code? Sure, provided they have enough free time to study. Especially in today's cenario with so many high quality resources that are either free or cheap. Can all of the above become professional programmers? No. There are only so many vacancies and working requires a certain level of knowledge, as well as other skills.

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fuddlesworth@reddit

Absolutely not. It takes a person with strong problem-solving skills to be able to code.

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Noobchadnezzar@reddit

Yes. In the same way everyone is able to learn to count, speak, play the piano, drive, etc. Whether they will excel at it is an entirely different issue. Learning to "code" is an incredibly low bar.

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TrainNo6882@reddit

No. Of course not.

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CasuallyDreamin@reddit

Math helps because math is logic and so is programming. Also being able to stare at lines of logical operations/expressions and numbers is much easier and less of a headache if you're comfortable with math. Some fields of programming have direct math application aswell ( think data analytics, performance analysis, computer architecture, data mining etc ) And no, i don't think coding is for everyone. The same way that art isn't for everyone.

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bctopics@reddit

I think everyone could in theory learn to code, I don’t think everyone would given the opportunity. I also don’t think everyone would be good at it, however they could technically learn it.

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lastdiggmigrant@reddit

Sure, but it's extremely competitive. I'd recommend going back to school and getting as much experience in there as possible (internships, coops, hackathons, research) to stand out.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Between the two, would you recommend a bootcamp or doing a masters at uni in computer science?

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lastdiggmigrant@reddit

Never a bootcamp. Possibly some cheap online ones like [react.gg](https://react.gg) or [learnjavascript.online](https://learnjavascript.online), but preferably free ones like [odinproject.com](https://odinproject.com) before touching those paid ones. For degree, OMSCS (Georgia Tech) is a decent 5 year masters program. It's about 8-12k for the entire program last I had checked.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

5 years? I’m sorry but surely there’s a lot less lengthy way to go through this process lol. I’ve heard people learn in one year and even less through bootcamps

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TheAntiSnipe@reddit

My alma mater has a 1.5 year masters’ program, however, it is incredibly taxing and like the person above said, as a masters’ program, it assumes a lot about you. Better have some experience coding. Five years is a good figure actually. Took me 2 years of vocational and 4 years of undergrad to get my first job. I went for the masters’ after that. P.S. Do not fall for bootcamps.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Can I ask what language/ skills you learnt in those years you were studying? The most I can put aside for learning is 2 years, I’m not willing to do a 4/5 year course when people have done it in less and I already have a degree

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TheAntiSnipe@reddit

I learned damn near everything there was to learn at the foundational level. Dipped my toes into embedded systems, cloud, ML/AI, devops, distributed systems, OS design, computer graphics and raytracing, web design, app dev… Tons of stuff. I’m a data specialist now though. Still touch about half of what I learned for a living. Condensing all that into two years is impossible. However, the most clean way to do it, I think, would be to start by choosing a domain and pinpointing what you want to know. Programming is vast. I’ll give you an example. I work on data pipelines for a living. What do I need to know? 1. Languages! You want to be able to talk to the systems you work with, and there’s good ones for a job. Python is an excellent starter, but I also know Go and I can write GraphQL schemas. Still learning how to deal with perms and auth on the job though. 2. Techniques! I have a massive toolbox, but I think the absolute key bits are knowing about the cloud and knowing about how stuff flows through the system. Most if not all jobs that hire you if you’re in my industry have a cloud setup. Azure, GCP, AWS, something like that. You gotta know the components and how they talk to one another. 3. A Swiss Army Knife. Absolute essentials that always come in handy. Regular expressions, research, reading code and writing your own tests, visualization skills, pulling stuff down from an API, any API, efficiently, typing fast, knowing who to ask for help and when, among other things. It’s really tough to condense all of this stuff, mainly because my job is a bit wide-spectrum. You might get better answers from someone who is more specialized. Additionally, I’d strongly advise not comparing yourself to others about this stuff. It’s possible to have surface level knowledge of stuff but not be very good at it regardless because your foundation is weak. The reason I don’t recommend bootcamps for example: They give you a routine of skills. What I mean is: “Do this, this, this, then this, and you’re done” which sounds good, but nothing is ever that straightforward at work and all it takes is one weird, unavoidable bit of configuration to completely destroy any semblance of a standard procedure, and that’s where bootcamp folks either sink or swim.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Thanks for breaking it down

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lastdiggmigrant@reddit

I don't know what the prospects look like in the UK, I think there is an EU (i know lol) specific sub targeted for career questions in the EU and UK. You might have a better shot than a lot of us in the states, but I don't know for sure.

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lastdiggmigrant@reddit

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but those times are done and gone away with.

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Slight-Living-8098@reddit

Bootcamp are a scam. Too many better sources like Harvard s OpenCourseware CS50x series.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Why’s it a scam? I’ve heard many people get jobs through them

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PizzaAndTacosAndBeer@reddit

It's hard to learn programming, because there's so much to know. Languages and syntax aren't really the hurdle, it's foundational concepts that apply to all of programming. Because computers work differently than brains, so it's all foreign. Boot camps (generally, as a rule) cover too much ground in too little time, and it's not really possible to absorb. Many boot camps deal with this by focusing heavily on his to get a job, what to say in an interview. Obviously it's good to learn that. But a lot of companies realized they were hiring a lot of people who seemed good at building software, but didn't actually have most of the necessary skills or knowledge. As a result, many companies became more cautious in their hiring and have devalued boot camps. I say this as a developer in the US, on the west coast. Your market may be different from mine and I wouldn't know it.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Ahh, makes a lot of sense. Thanks for breaking it down

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Slight-Living-8098@reddit

The horror stories usually outweigh the success stories. You usually pay a lot to learn very little.

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dptwtf@reddit

No. Most people aren't, at least not in a realistic practical way. You can teach a monkey how to put paint on a canvas, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a painter.

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wutang_forever_@reddit

Define “code.” No. Seriously. If you mean type in “hello world” into a debugger than of course anyone can code. Being able to code is like learning a skill (think baking, driving) anyone can do it, but not everyone is going to be a NASCAR driver.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

Enough coding to be able to get a job

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wutang_forever_@reddit

You’re thinking about this all wrong lol. Your dad probably got a job where he just more or less did the same thing daily. This is not the case anymore for most people. Coding can only take you so far. You also have to take into account: - thinking critically - learning on a daily basis - coming up with solutions to asymmetrical problems To add on to that “coding” is arguably speaking turning into one of the most competitive fields to enter thanks to social media making it look so easy and glamorous and there is good phone jobs to be had I am not saying this to discourage you, but if this does not sound like your cup of tea you might want to do something else Good luck

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

You do sound very discouraging. Anyone with a functioning memory can think critically, learn on a daily basis , etc etc.

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RightvsLeftIdiots@reddit

No. A lot of people can't think as plainly as it requires.

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Either_Lifeguard_966@reddit (OP)

What do you mean by can’t think as plainly as it requires?

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ElectricRune@reddit

Another example of this is 'explain how to get dressed in the morning.' You might, at some point, say, 'put on your shoes and socks.' A perfectly reasonable thing to say, but would end up with your socks on over your shoes (for a computer) because of the way you said it.

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RightvsLeftIdiots@reddit

Like the other guy says, take making a sandwich. Most would say 'grab meat, grab cheese, grab mayo, sammich' But it's actually, go into kitchen, open drawer, pull out butterknife, go to fridge, pull out meat and cheese, go back to cutting board, etc etc

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PizzaAndTacosAndBeer@reddit

Here's an example. Imagine you're being paid to make a form where users will input data. Boss wants to know how much (time) it will cost to arrest auto save functionality. How would you answer that? The answer is to break the request down into small, achievable tasks, make sure none of those are a red flag, two to estimate how much work is involved with all of them in combination, and then pad by 50%. Most people would respond by saying "I don't even know where to begin with such a big thing as that!" but you should be thinking about having some kind of scratch pad for the application to store intermediate values.

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chinchillerino@reddit

I’ve always been really bad at puzzles, spot the difference, find the pattern, problem solving of any sort… so no, I don’t think people like me will be successful in learning to code. I still try, but in all my years of working at it, I never get better.

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Shassk@reddit

>I'm pretty apt at maths although I know that maths and programming don't have a strong correlation You should be fine. Very core idea is similar - you use formulas / functions calls to represent some logical process step by step.

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David_Owens@reddit

To a professional level, no. Not everyone can do that. I'd say maybe 1/3 of the population **can** do it, and many of those who can aren't going to like doing it.

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