I own a Mach E. Ford isn't making anything interesting. The F150 has a fixed market, the Bronco/Maverick appeal to a small niche, but they got rid of all sedans and hatchback and their SUVs are arguably worse than offerings from many other companies. Internally Ford is working on their next generation EV platform which could help make their lineup look a bit more interesting, but that seems to still be at least a year off.
I am a big Mustang lover, and they’re great cars at the right price. I just saw an ad for a $69000 GT premium with performance pack active exhaust and Magneride. Mind you this is not even a dark horse. At that price you’re talking about very clean C8s, base m4s etc.
Consider the higher tier Mustang’s competitors. You can get into a hellcat at 60-70. That’s super charged. You can get into a ZL1 at 60-70. Again super charged. You want a supercharged mustang? 110k. At 60-70 you can get into a clean last gen Shelby gt350 or maybe a dark horse… I love them but it’s hard to justify the purchase if you’re just looking at reliability and actual performance.
It just feels like Ford is pricing themselves out of the market
You’re talking about heavily discounted ecoboosts that are selling 10k under msrp because they’ve been sitting on lots for close to 90 days in some markets.
Absolutely, Ford are overpriced now. They used to be a "cheaper brand" with nice economy cars and nowadays you can get brand new Toyotas or Hondas for less than the cheapest ford (in Canada at least).
34 000$ for the cheapest Ford here.
I know reading probably isn’t the strong suit of a redditor, but typically when a new paragraph starts it indicates a new idea. Which is why I refer to a gt350… which hasn’t been in production for 7 years. So I have one paragraph talking about new vehicles and one talking and used ones. Get your room temperature iq back into the class room.
In your second paragraph you cited the new dark horse SC costing $110k, and compared it to 3 used car models (and one new mustang of a lower trim). I know those car models are way out of production, thats why I’m wondering why the heck you’re mentioning the new SC costing $110k. Its new!
In your first paragraph, you wrote “very clean C8s, base M4s etc”. This kind of phrasing is associated with used cars. New cars are expected to be very clean, so there is no reason to add it.
Killing their car lines was terminal Next Quarter thinking. They ended popular brands because they felt they'd sell enough higher margin vehicles to make up for it, so now they killed the entryway into their brand for young buyers and they don't have anything to offer buyers when the market tastes shift to smaller more efficient vehicles (like when gas prices shoot up)
Epic own goal
Yeah, that was dumb and I thought it was dumb at the time. Gas would eventually get expensive again, it always does. And some people actually want small cars and not SUVs.
> And some people actually want small cars and not SUVs.
Yep. I live in the europe and there's no way I'll ever buy an suv. Petrol is expensive in here and suv's don't fit into parking spaces. And what do I need a big tank of a car for anyway?
Bit of a shame since I really thought that fiesta is a good contender for my next car since it looks great and it's reliable. Now there's just vag cars with exploding engines/gearboxes, ugly japanese cars and french hatcbacks which look nice but they have a reputation for problems, just like italian cars do.
> Killing their car lines was terminal Next Quarter thinking
Car sales have been declining relative to SUV sales for decades. Its not like they had one bad quarter.
Whatever demographic you want to say is buying entry level new cars, they don't have a way in to the Ford brand, that's the point.
Domestic cars have benefitted from brand loyalty for a long time, with the whole idea being whatever car you move to next they have something to offer you. They just decided no entry level buyers needed to enter the brand anymore, and now here they are.
The power shift DCT liked the Focus, the Fiesta wasn't selling, and I can't defend the Fusion or the Taurus cuts. That they also went on to cut the Escape and Edge is a mind fuck the likes of which I haven't experienced since I didn't know when. The profitability of a product line does matter, there's opportunity cost associated with a break even year on the Fusion or Taurus, but I can't rationalize giving up marketshare willingly by also killing their replacements. Those new EV models need to hit the showrooms yesterday.
Focus sales in 2016-2017 were within 10% of what Focus sales were in 2006-2007.
They just did the CEO move. Cut all your low margin stuff, report Profits Are Way Up and Number Go Up so you get your year end bonus, and 5-10 years from now is another guy's problem.
They have the Maverick, but the average buyer for the Maverick is generally older than the Ford profile. Killing the edge was the killer, Ford doesn't have a HRV type competitor.
A Ford Focus could compete for younger buyers, but I think it's an overall quality issue from Ford, esp since their BlueCruise hasn't made its way downline to compete with vehicles like Subaru's Crosstrek with Eyesight for under 30k.
Edge was more a Taurus replacement along the lines of Maxima->Murano, Impala->Blazer. Their subcompact was theoretically the Ecosport, but lmao at that
Counter points;
Full-size trucks are the most important vehicle segment in the US car market. Ford makes the best 1500 and 2500/3500 trucks on the market and it's not even close.
Ford makes the best full-size SUV on the market, the Expedition, since GM cannot make V8's for their Tahoe/Suburban lines that don't explode after 20k miles.
Ford makes the best off-road SUV on the market, the Bronco.
Ford makes the only American V8 coupe/sports car, the Mustang, and it's pretty great.
I'm not sure how you can say that Ford doesn't make anything interesting...
Would be nice if Lincoln had ONE sedan, just one… and if Ford had some smaller offerings. If the focus/fiesta were still around, or ecoboost mustang with a stick, maybe I’d be in one of those instead if my wrx
Fwiw I even cross shopped my wrx with two door bronco
Ford cancelling the Escape is still so stupid and I have no idea how they came to that conclusion. The assumption must have been that those buyers would move to the Bronco Sport but clearly based on sales the Sport was an entirely different customer to the Escape and the Sport's volume was incremental not cannibalistic.
Honestly they just are constrained on North American factory space and considered the retool to UEV more important than a model they’ve been struggled to either make money on in the 2010’s or have sales volume on in the 2020’s. Part of this is they try to design it both for the US and Europe which doesn’t work because it a value buy in America but not in Europe.
They could have avoided this if they planned better (didn’t waste a fuckton on the cancelled 3-row EV and T3) but they didn’t. If they just actually stick to their current plans and execute it will be fine and we’ll have an Escape actually made for the American market at reasonable costs in 2029. If they don’t we’ll be buying Chevys.
They’re localizing their models between America, Europe, and Asia. One Ford has already been death a while, no reason Ford would make one model for all world.
In Asia, OZ/NZ, and Latin America, Territory is Escape/Kuga successor, and Ford is going to export more models from their Chinese partners to most world.
In Europe, Ford is basically becoming rebadged VW and Renault, Puma, Transit, and Ranger are only their own design models now.
Only America is still doing their own models, but most are trucks and SUVs only.
Localizing is probably positive. Australia is a really tough battleground right now. I figure they are fucked in Europe for passenger cars.
I also think that in the context of decisions they’ve already made and have to live with, what they are doing in America is probably correct. This year will be rough because of [poor planning and] the aluminum issues. The product gaps probably won’t hurt Ford’s bottom line much but will still look bad and it probably isn’t good that the Bronco Sport and Maverick are just holding steady rather than really absorbing Escape sales. After that we have the skunk truck coming next year and should see other new products soon after.
As far as Escape customers are concerned while I could probably be picked up by the skunk truck (otherwise I’m probably going to get a Chevy Bolt, or if they make it Equinox PHEV. I could dig an Explorer if they make it a hybrid again) this does suck shit since we gotta wait until 2029 really for an Escape replacement. A lot will leave for Chevy. I just also get it from the perspective of the company and what actually matters, what they can do with the mistakes they already made; they have to make sure they can stay on top with the segments where they have genuinely attractive vehicles you want to own (pickup trucks of all shapes and sizes, plus the horse twins) before they go back to the segments they were getting hosed by Toyota and Chevy in, and now face the Chinese.
The advantage the Escape had over hte bronco was that it offered both a hybrid and PHEV. In this day and age with gas being stupid expensive, cancelling a phev/gas hybrid was dumb as fucking hell.
Yep 100%, and as far as they go from personal experience, is it the greatest car I have ever owned? No, that actually goes to my 03 Buick Lesabre, but the fact I have to fill up gas once a month because of it, makes it fantastic.
Unfortunately, the aviator is not reliable and they killed the corsair (same platform as the escape). I own a Corsair PHEV and really like the car but the recalls are a PITA. Last year, I could not charge my car due to a recall and this year I can't charge higher than 80% because the recall did not work.
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I cannot trust a Hyundai or Kia to get me where I need to go without breaking. The amount I work on for different things on a day to day basis is insane.
Explorer was 70/30 retail/fleet last year which means a hair under 156k were retail last year, which still leads the segment afaik even if you exclude all fleet.
I just test drove the new Explorer Tremor with the 3.0 and it's pretty nice for what it is. For most people though, you're right. I was also disappointed the Tremor didn't have a low gear or even a rear locker. You would think something with the "Tremor" package would come standard.
That said, I love the look of the Explorer ST and I appreciate that Ford is really the only one doing a mid level performance SUV anymore. It would be cool if their were Traverse SSs, Pilot Sis, Palisade Ns, and Telluride GTs... but alas, those days are behind us. Maybe Jeep will put the Hurricane i6 in their Grand Cherokee next year.
Doesnt help that Ford got rid of all their good SUV offerings like the Edge and Flex. I know the Flex sold quite bad in most of the U.S. (im in a market where they sold super well), but the Edge is everywhere. Super dumb decision to get out of that segment. The Escape isn't as roomy and the Explorer is too big and the Bronco Sport is too niche + doesnt fill the void of the Edge.
Ford’s move to abandon the European hatchback market is baffling to me. They’ve got the puma and lugs but they are either so generic or really selling poorly for me to even notice them on the road. The only current production Fords I see on the road here in the Netherlands are the Mach-e. My company doesn’t even have Ford in their allowed inventory for lease cars.
Just commenting to say the explorer is by far their best vehicle right now, aside from the F150. Better than the competition in some ways, worse than others, but massively cheaper than its Asian competitors.
Interesting to you is yet another crossover SUV apparently. We have very different views of interesting. I’m no ford fan at all but they are pretty much the only ones making a compact truck and it is selling really well.
Yeah, at least GM replaced their small cheap offerings with something similar (Trax and Envista) that resonated and was priced with the cheap car market
The Envista is honestly such a surprisingly decent car for having just a $24k MSRP. I rode in one the other day and assumed it'd be sitting in the $40k range given the look and feel of it.
This isn’t a Farley problem its sn American car manufacturers problem they v have treated profit on mass for profit per sale. No reason in 2026 a truck should be over 100k its a 10k min profit category. 10k!!!! That’s 200 bucks in payment on the low end. Mind you when they c say sales are down they c are still making a profit! It’s all corporate greed.
We need new manufacturers with less bloat and more regionally based. The mega corporations are killing the US
If the Maverick gave AWD Hybrid for $25k instead of $35k it would be the best selling vehicle in the county. They have gone too far from the original $20k so it no longer seems like a good deal.
I was gonna say... Is the argument really that "if this vehicle was almost 30% cheaper, it would sell."? That's at least a 20% loss for Ford per vehicle.
Ford's decision to discontinue the Focus and Fiesta will go down as one of the worst decisions in automotive history. Their position in common car segments was replaced by Kia and Hyundai and Ford will likely never get them back.
Their CEO is a literal idiot. Bad decision after bad decision and then he comes out making hot takes again and again.
They need to go back to making actual competitive cars and start appealing to newer generation of car owners. I hope see this obsession over boat handling trucks (13mpg grocery retrieval vehicles) and SUVs (Karen mobiles) dies off and we see some good cars again.
> back to actual competitive cars
Would that be back to the 1960s? The Escort, Focus, Fiesta, Fusion ever really that good compared to the competition.
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TBH, Detroit never have good reputation in econobox market, they’ve been trying for half century but still no work.
People still remember how awful in Pinto, that model has made people not believing Ford econobox.
Everyone in this thread are saying what a dumb decision for Ford to kill off its cars but how many people actually bought a new Escort/Fusion/Focus/Taurus without some sort of heavy discount/rebate. (don't @ me, RS and ST dorks, you know I'm not talking about you)
I don't know about this one considering Ford failed to fix the transmission in Focus. Remember Ford uses the cheapest option to fix vehicle already made that they will not replace existing components in vehicles on the road such as a new revision of their transmission.
Ford also shot themselves in the foot with the Fiesta and Focus by releasing them with an automatic transmission that they knew had major issues but decide to put them on sale anyways. Hence, Ford pretty much ruined their reputation for actually making somewhat decent small cars practically overnight, at least in the US.
It's revisionist history to act like the automatics were any good in the old escort, Taurus, and focus too.
Ford has like a 30 year history of completely shitting the bed with transverse automatics at this point.
I don’t think anybody was ever claiming that previous Ford transverse automatic transmissions were good. It’s just that the Powershift is so much worse. Lol.
I had a manual ZX3 and we absolutely loved that little car. Also pretty reliable and real easy to work on too. The ZX5s were decent enough little wagons as well.
I mean the smallest regular car they offer at this point is the escape/bronco sport. They’re not competing in the Trax/HRV/etc. segment which I see tons of on the road because people need cheap cars that get good gas mileage.
People need to stop using the term car for Ford Escape/Bronco. Both the Ford Escape and Ford Bronco Sport are Light Trucks. The "Light Truck" loophole allows Ford to make the Escape/Bronco without meeting the stricter emissions of passenger cars. The only car in their lineup with a ground clearance 5 inches or less is the Mustang. This is the main reason every automaker sells SUVs/Trucks. The entire market is skewed towards trucks & SUVs. I'm a Millennial who hates SUVs/Trucks.
There isn't enough production capacity at Ford Romania to bring it stateside. They'd have to either add an NA factory or expand the one in Romania to meet the demand from the US and Canada. You can't just increase production by 50% at an existing factory that is already close to maxed out.
The EcoSport was a car that was never meant for the U.S. to begin with, as it was a BRIC-market vehicle. It was a terrible offering for our market, and it's no surprise they discontinued it. Ford could've put more effort into offering a better subcompact CUV, but they clearly didn't care that much.
Unable to see Puma, but it’s probably about practical design.
Toyota and Nissan had failed in their subcompact crossover market with CH-R and Juke. No joke, both model were ridiculous tiny, both crossovers made 2-door coupe looked more useful.
Anyway, both have been replaced with Corolla Cross and Kicks, and CH-R and Kicks are only sold in Europe and other worlds.
Well, the Ford Warranty is for 3/36k, during which time I’ll trade my personal business vehicle for something else. So, it works out perfectly, actually. Thanks.
Nah it still meets all emissions standards. It just requires 91 octane while the stock tune runs fine on 87. It’s not really surprising that the stock tune leaves power on the table when you consider it’s a twin turbo that runs 87 octane.
Requiring 91 octane probably plays a role. But I think people are in a bit of denial about the long term potential reliability impact.
You're basically taking what is stock a 5-year/60K mile powertrain warranty and replacing it with a 3-year/36K mile warranty. And also eliminating your ability to obtain any factory-backed extended warranty as well.
You are correct. Apparently there were some early complaints of CARB SMOG failures, but Ford secured a CARB EO for the tune in 2025, which is enough to satisfy the Feds as well.
[CARB EO link](https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9603-REB30)
I love my Maverick, but I'm sure glad that the dealer I got it from gives 10 year/100k mile power train warranties on new cars. I'm a little worried about when my bumper to bumper warranty ends. I've already needed some work done on the AC system and had some other minor issues with less than 5k miles on it.
They've been under MSRP all year, maybe not at your local dealer but all over nationally.
They're absolutely a great deal, but the build quality is leaving a lot to be desired, even by Ford standards. The new Expedition isn't selling well at all, but that, and the prior gen Timberline, were amazing deals in terms of getting "baby raptors"
The Ranger interior, including the Raptor, is simply awful. Lots of posters always frame the RR as being this "bargain" but I don't agree. Yes, you're getting an awesome engine and a decent suspension setup but man... that interior is peak cost cutting.
And I have a lot of build quality complaints with my Bronco. But the Bronco interior feels roomier. Its significantly better laid out. The infotainment setup is far, far better (horizontal vs vertical screen). It has buttons for all the controls you need (SO much RR controls are two/three steps buried in the touchscreen).
Like... I get why people like the trucks. I do. But at the same time its clear as day why they're priced the way they are.
Yeah I didn't want to be rude since it's so much money and it might come off harsh to the owners, but yeah the interior is especially bad for daily use and the rest as you note is especially cost cut even by Ford's extreme degree of cheapening lower trims
That's one of the main reasons I didn't pull the trigger last month on a Ranger Lariat FX4. That screen is hideous and there's no way around it. I test drove the new Explorer too, and luckily they got rid of that slab of a screen and added back real buttons... at least some. The Tacoma is the best for real buttons and screen, but the interior is just to cramped with the massive center console, and for someone that's 6'3" I couldn't imagine sitting there for more than two hours at a time.
You're absolutely right. I'm a die hard Ford guy and I much prefer the styling over the GM full size SUVs, from Tahoe to Escalade. And I know it's not a popular opinion in here, but people want V8s in their full size SUVs. I am such a die-hard guy that I drive a new Navigator instead of an Escalade because of my blue oval loyalty but I despise the ecoboost, despite having over 500 ft lb of torque. I've already had to get the phasers replaced under warranty. At least give the expedition and Navigator a V8 option alternative. Not to mention the expedition and Navigator styling is a bit feminine compared to the GM products. The expedition looks like a minivan from certain angles.
In the Raptor forums a lot of high volume dealers and some places trying to make sales, got mine on the front range of CO.
The latest ones I've seen are the Southern states.
Width, length, lightness, and cost.
My wife and I work from home and don't tow or haul anything (any more), so a full size truck is overkill. I also prefer the ability to go on smaller, tighter trails and like the idea of a lighter truck on the sand. I loved my old F-150, but when I had it I also had a race car, travel trailer, and bigger driveway. I also don't want to spend $100k on something that I will only drive 4-8k miles a year.
Lastly, full size trucks are overkill for like 80% of the people that buy them, and the F-150 Raptor is overkill for like 90%.
After driving a RAM 1500 for a while I like the RR for being smaller yet having a rockstar suspension and great power. It’s also an amazing value at 60k-ish compared to full size. People often comment it’s like a scaled up rally car and nobody describes the big Raptor that way. The big Raptor gets better lux features, tho.
Plus he seems to think badge engineering a Renault will help them re-enter the European market.
They could bring the PHEV Ranger to the US and won't. They could put a hybrid in the Expedition and won't. They could put a hybrid in the Bronco sport and won't. There are so many options that seem to make sense that are close at hand and he just won't green light them. Instead we have Ford entering the home battery market. You're not alone, I'm not sure even Jim Farley understands what Jim Farley is doing.
The no hybrid Bronco Sport is baffling. The Escape, Maverick, and Corsair all are available (well, were) are all on the same platform and all available as hybrids.
That there isn’t a PowerBoost Expedition by now has blown my mind. Ford is doing crazy sales on the PB in the F-150, and the Expedition shares the platform and a lot of components. A ProPower capable expedition just seems like a cash cow with how many families use them for towing their travel trailers and everything else.
They could remarket/revise the PowerBoost tuning to be more fuel mileage focused compared to the F-150 and also revise ProPower to something like “AdventurePower” or whatever far better name their actual marketing team comes up with and lean into the outdoors focused market that’s been doing so well for them with the Tremor trims.
It wouldn’t double Expedition sales or anything, but it would certainly be a strong draw in the segment.
EXACTLY! Likewise for the Ranger. ProPower seems to be marketed to contractors but I've got a PB F150 with the 7.2kW pro power setup. But it's a lariat. What contractor is buying a Lariat? Seems like most folks use it for powering a trailer. Market a Ranger to overland crowd so they run a fridge / powered cooler in the bed and charge devices and you're in the money, take some market share from the Tacoma. Same with the Expedition.
Overlanders can easily add an inverter to their truck if they wanted to, but often there's no reason to do so when they can charge a cheap portable battery.
Ok but by the same token nobody needs ProPower because you can just buy a generator. Ford doesn't sell an inverter. Ford doesn't sell batteries. Ford doesn't sell generators. They do sell trucks and they used to put things in them to set them apart from the competition and that gave them monetization opportunities. I added a 12v socket to bed of my Ranger. Bizarrely, it's wired for that already but there's no factory option for it. It's plug an play with a 3rd party harness and socket. So Ford went to the trouble of the r&d and assembly and then just didn't bother monetizing it (at least for the production year of my truck).
By a similar token, Ford could add recording ability to the 5 (yes, five) cameras my F150 camera with and I would pay for that. But nope, they rather I pay someone else for a dashcam. Tesla has "sentry mode" by comparison, and monetizes the connectivity feature on top. But for some unknown reason, Ford thinks I will pay them to have Alexa in my truck, instead of just using my phone for free.
They just keep missing the forest for the trees, in all manner of areas.
Ford doesn't care about anyone but F-150 buyers. It's why the Maverick doesn't have a 5 foot bed, why the Ranger doesn't have 4A in anything but the Raptor, why the Maverick/Ranger have no inverter past the dogshit 400w that they throw in everything, why they don't offer ventilated seats on the Ranger, etc.
They are masters at minimizing cannibalization across their lineup.
Yeah, totally agree. I think that's what biting them in the ass though. Their first electric pickup should have been the Maverick. You should be able to spec up Maverick or a Ranger to the gills if you want. You should be able to get a Ranger with a 6ft bed. Trying to force everyone into an F150 these days is just ridiculous. When I had a Ranger I wasn't considering an F150, I was shopping the Tacoma. I decided to get an F150 because I wanted more interior space, not because I wanted vented seats.
Its funny how American automakers bailed on evs for the umpteenth time only for the oil markets to crater.
If China ever manages to enter the US market they are completely cooked.
>issuing endless recalls
As a former Ford apologist, Ford’s engineering arm is fucking dumb. Recalls are in place because of poor engineering. The kind of engineering fumbles that led to the powershift transmission that killed the only products Ford made that I was interested in buying from them, they then pivoted to make an engine with a timing system that uses an oil soaked belt, they then pivoted to fucking up Mazda’s L engine and somehow made their 2.0 ecoboost have coolant intrusion issues in spite of the engine being a 10 year old production engine, they then pivoted to making engines with complicated and failure prone cam phasers in tandem to doubling down on oil soaked rubber belts driving oil pumps.
They’re literally incapable of not shooting themself in the foot.
They abandoned sedans and anything remotely fuel efficient and/or cheap and shocked pikachu’ed us all. It’s 2007 all over again. Can’t wait to bail em all out again.
Lincolns are nice but they just feel like superior trims of Fords. Like, a discounted Corsair is better than an Escape, but it is basically an Escape. They need to offer something more whether that's more luxury or more performance. It's crazy that Lincoln redefined American cars in the 1960s and now doesn't even offer one.
Ford is really missing the Focus and Fusion. Whenever I see a Fusion in the wild I still love its front end. While these cars didn't drive huge profits they maintained the brand and helped build customers.
I got my mom a Corsair for less than an Escape a couple years ago. Aviator and Explorer are similar priced if you compare specs. Lease prices are high without specials nowadays and have been for some time. I miss when you could lease a Fusion for $200 or a MKZ for $250
It's how they calculate residual value. When they want to push leases they use a higher figure. For the last few years leasing has been like equal to buying in terms of monthly cost, and probably a better option if you are considering a 36 month lease. Back in the 00s and early 10s Ford and GM were aggressive to get people into leases because of the financial crash so leasing was often 1/2 the monthly price of buying.
That is why you shouldn't lease one. You're missing the point. Lease prices are based on residual value, which manufacturer sets. It's an artificial number. Look at actual prices and the Aviator is similarly priced to comparable Explorers. Though i would still save the money and get the Explorer Platinum.
What explorer has a $73k sticker?
I’m jaded by this price gouging. We got a 22 explorer st for $525/mo lease, 36 mo, zero down and bought outright at lease end for $30k.
Bro. Did you even click the link I posted? It’s a reserve awd and it’s $73.3k.
It’s a shit deal. But if it makes you feel as cool as Matthew mcconahey, then *alright alright*
I am seriously questioning your intelligence here. Advertised price for an Aviator Reserve AWD is $66k in my area. Advertised price for an Explorer ST is $58,000. At 60-months your difference in payment is $180 ($1100 vs $1290). Whether you want to spend that difference is kind of up to the buyer but my point is that it isn't very significant in an apple to apples comparison. (Remember, ST does have less nice interior.)
Comparing your ST lease terms to whatever lease offer you found for an Aviator is stupid because lease offers are often fudging residual value to get cars off lots. Ford doesn't want people to lease an Aviator.
Which is it, boy?
40minutes ago avaators were 63-66k sticker. Then when I provide you wrong with, ya know, an actual sticker, you now want to argue “advertised price”? (Which is ironically the same amount you previously claimed was sticker).
Try to keep your story straight.
Ps. I see explorer st advertised price *in my area* for $52k. So even your attempt at a corrected, strawman point, still falls apart by $15k.
I saw one that had $66k as MSRP but to give you the benefit of the doubt I found one with sticker the same as what you posted so we could do a fairer comparison lest I leave off some options. The ST I found is highest spec so as to be a fairer comparison with the Aviator Reserve. Otherwise, we could just compare a ST to Aviator Premier, which is probably the fairest approach since even Premier has more options.
You know fuck it just go to a Michigan dealer where they all list A Plan
Aviator Premier A Plan $57,500
Explorer ST A Plan $54,500
$3000 price difference.
I live in Michigan just a few short miles from ford headquarters. I’m well aware of a/z plan pricing.
I would estimate explorers outnumber aviators something like 40 to 1 around here. I’m too lazy to pull up the numbers to continue this argument, but feel free to do the research to dispute. Hell, I’m willing to bet the ST trim alone far outnumbers all aviators as a whole.
But I think it’s very obvious, that the customers voting with their wallets agree that Lincoln variant offers very little to justify the inflated price. And the folk that want to spend 70k+ on a suv are just going to make the jump up to an expedition, or more likely a Tahoe/yukon/escalade.
Half of Cadillacs line up is EV and their sedans come in two flavors: old man brownne cruiser and young man mannulle sporty.
It’s a winning strategy: give (more of) the people what they want. It’s the only reason Kia is popular: their big boxy Telluride is now a more reliable Range Rover, there’s an EV version of it, and they’ve got every other type of SUV and sedan available.
No it didn't but most buyers aren't familiar with those things, either. A lot of it is just time. Cadillac is more associated with the Escalade and now with performance sedans, and you get buyers don't have memories of their grandparents in Cadillacs as much. Sedans haven't done anything to come back into style but are because younger buyers associate SUVs with their parents.
I think the new Buick sedan will exist primarily to sever Caddy from the old person image for good. Basically something targeting older buyers who want a smooth riding RWD or AWD sedan that the CT5 base now is, and the CT5 or whatever its name will be will sit more confidently as a performance sedan
I own a Corsair PHEV because they decided to make the escape PHEV fwd only. There is a huge difference in terms of build quality, sound isolation and suspension. Problem is the plethora of recalls and the crazy depreciation.
It sounds like Lincoln is making something Bronco-based that should be more like a Land Cruiser competitor (in Ford's dreams, anyway) so we'll see. But absolutely, they're just trim level differences with some new sheet metal.
Where's the Mark X? The Mustang platform is good enough, they could do it. Or anything else unique and interesting
>The reality is Ford/Lincoln are just not offering what the market needs right now which are fuel efficient and affordable cars with high gas prices and economic uncertainty
I just dont believe this statement right here when one of dodges best selling vehicles right now are the Durango's and the V8 Durango sales are healthy
Also they're acting like ford doesnt have ecoboost engines in almost all the product lines.
So no i dont think fuel efficiency is the blocker here where the market is showing that V8s still sell right now.
> when one of dodges best selling vehicles right now are the Durango's and the V8 Durango sales are healthy
Dodge's entire lineup is only the Durango and Charger.
Soooo… can I get one at msrp now or nah? Cause last time I checked dealers get to set their own prices and at these prices a “normal” rebate is just pennies on the overall cost of the car.
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Will die on the hill that Ford ditching small cars was a bad shortsighted move. They’re in a bad spot now and they also pulled the plug prematurely on EVs
They had the Maverick priced so well years ago that demand was high. Since then, the base price has increased so much that there are now very few offerings across ford’s lineup that is sub 30k
Remember this when Ford keeps talking about their "Sub $30k" EV
It'll be the same as their $20k Maverick and their $40k Lightning, gone immediately if it ever exists
IMO that’s also the story of why the Lightning effectively failed. I knew plenty of people who were willing to buy at the advertised $39,900 or at least in that line of price and add on options, but the immediate huge price increases killed a lot of that demand, to the point where even as prices came back down a little, they had still pissed so many potential buyers off that they had no interest in coming back to reshop the Lightning.
The Maverick prices seem insane. I started looking because I think they are cool and I’d like to have a small cheaper truck, but I can basically buy a bare bones full size truck depending on sales and rebates for that price.
Companies figure out a good product and then price it till it becomes a shit option.
I asked back when they cancelled all their cars what their contingency plan for an era of $5 per gallon gas. I guess the answer is they have none, except to wait it out.
It's not that they're allergic, it's that they tried but always came in at best maybe 6th place. Toyota, Honda, GM, Hyundai, Nissan, any combination of some or all of them undercut whatever Ford made in any given economy car segment. Whether it was price or quality or appeal, it doesn't matter. The entire premise of a low margin high volume car is to have high volume, so without the volume, they are better off using that production on vehicles that have higher margin.
That's why they cancelled all their sedans and compacts, and it was the right call. A 10 year downward slide in stock price and earnings from 2010-2020 that if you extrapolate it out a few more years, would put them in serious trouble. They cancel the sedans and compacts, Jim Farley comes in, they use that production capacity for newly introduced Bronco, bronco sport, maverick, new ranger, and reverse the trend. Higher margin on fewer vehicles means more profit. And an entirely new lineup along with refreshing everything else they sold, if that didn't lead to a ton of recalls, means they were hiding them. This has nothing to do with ford specifically, its a problem with mass manufacturing new product on a new production line - ask Toyota about their exploding V6s.
Reddit is a bubble where people are mad at vehicles that aren't manual hatchbacks for $25,000, and if any car company made their decisions based on the whims of reddit comments, they'd be bankrupt within 5 years.
Had they continued the same failing strategy, it literally would have, eventually. Net earnings in 2018-2019 were $400M and $560M, over ~$160B in revenue per year. That's a 0.3% profit margin for 2 years straight, at the tail end of a decade of stock price and earnings decline, likely only kept above zero with massive cost cuts, At the same time that they had accumulated $150B in total debt.
Without an entire product strategy change, there would be no way to survive that over the years. No money for redesigns or refreshes on already old platforms and models, no way to generate additional profit in such low margin segments, and they would have eventually needed to sell off cash on hand and company assets just to keep barely profitable vehicles rolling off the production line, with zero wiggle room or cushion in the budget.
So they announced the cancellation of sedans and compacts in 2018, wound down US production in early 2020, and 2020-2023 saw them earn twice the amount of total profit that the massive 2024-2025 EV write down losses would amount to. So even with a completely cancelled EV program, they are still up around $15B in profit over the past 5 years, with a significant tax write off to carry forward into the next few years.
Just as some Reddit users will ignore the current slide, citing a temporary measure. But how long can they absorb declining sales of trucks if that continues.
Ford lucked out on $2.50 US gas for as long as it did. We may soon see how long truck owners can make the loan payments and fill the tank on $5 gas. Or if it was a wise decision to cede the world car market to China. Farley is on record crying for protection and saying Ford can’t compete with the Chinese EVs a level playing field, saying seeing their product is humbling. I’d at least like to see them keep some of the hybrid cars, if not an EV truck.
Same plan the big 3 had in 2008.
I'm surprised truck prices haven't gone through the floor like they did back then. You couldn't give away your run of the mill used trucks back then
Glad I got my Gen 3 Fusion back in the mid 2010s when I did, though I kick myself when I passed on the hybrid version which used to be worth less on the second-hand market.
Crazy that they were in the same position pre-Mullaly ~20 years ago. When he left, they were on track to continue making efficient, small and affordable cars but they went back to the easy profits as soon as gas prices fell
Is Ford as terrible at marketing in the US as they are in Australia? They haven't had a good ad here on screen or in print in maybe two decades, and the vehicles themselves aren't bad.
At least, Ford is still doing car business in OZ unlike GM. GM chose to abandon OZ market and killed Holden. GM did save money and now making decent EV models, but they lost near all RHD market sales.
Yeah, when they killed their cars off, I thought it was incredibly foolish. Sure, they weren't huge revenue generators, but they've priced themselves out of the market for many.
You mean getting rid of passenger cars and hybrids in favor of trucks and suvs is not a smart move? Who would have foresee this? /s/ for all the stupid people.
I own a 2010 Mercury Milan (Ford Fusion). The car drives great, has 208000 miles, but rust and time are getting to it. I need to replace it sooner than later.
Ford lost me (and I’m sure many others) as a potential customer by not having a small or mid-sized car in their US line-up. Their decision to remove all regular cars from US sales maybe worked in the moment, but it sure doesn’t work now.
Numbers are pretty revealing about *where* they are struggling. Down 109k sales in SUVs and trucks, nearly half of which are due to the loss of the Escape. Buyers who may have bought an Escape in prior years did not buy the Bronco Sport - they bought from a different manufacturer. Plus factor in the loss of fleet sales.
And then F-150 sales are way down (~51k) but there's a shortage. Those two vehicles account for about 90% of the decrease between 2025 and 2026.
the new escape killed the escape. i just rented one. it drives way, way superior to the best selling rogue - which is an abonination to drive, terribly rough ride, awful 3 cyl engine. i actually enjoyed driving it. but. it looks so damned cost cut to death and cheap.. rock hard plastic all over the interior, a lot of missing features. a real missed opportunity
Totally anecdotal, but several of the people in my social circle who bought the Bronco Sport did so because they loved 00's boxy Ford Escape, but disliked the newer curvy model. I would guess that many of the people who bought the new Ford Escape felt the opposite, because they're still pretty different vehicles. Selling to both markets seems like it was working.
The Bronco sport feels like a continuation of the old North America model Escape, which towards the end didn’t sell well. The European model Escape was everywhere before Ford yanked the plug. No idea why they went back on the global Ford models, I don’t see a reason why the Kuga (Escape) or the Puma can’t be sold in America.
This is an important distinction to highlight. Like others, my mind remains blown they ever came to a scenario where discontinuing the Escape made sense. The Bronco Sport is a great counterpart for it, not a replacement. But trying to coalesce around "brands" (Bronco, Mustang, F-Series) is flawed logic for such a high volume automaker.
Mach E - I like it, but I suspect I would buy an Ioniq 5 first
Mustang - I'll buy a slightly used BMW 4 series instead
F150 & Maverick - I would never buy a pickup truck so I am not that customer.
Meanwhile, the Escape was discontinued, and I don't hear anyone discuss the Explorer as an option.
Lincoln SUVs look really nice, but just never even entered my mind as something to buy
I saw gas at $7 yesterday here in California. They are just so not ready for the future.
Ford management doesn’t understand that what sells the high margin vehicles is having a big following of good low margin vehicles. If you don’t have a low cost but good Ford Fiesta for a teenagers first car to fall in love with the ford brand. Then when they are old and wealthy enough to buy a high margin car then they aren’t going to think to buy one from Ford. Or someone isn’t going to buy their wife a $100k Explorer if they don’t have a Focus RS that they love.
They’re too busy focusing on making iconic vehicles instead of affordable vehicles.
In fact, I don’t think they make any cars at all. They only make trucks now.
I'd have to give Ford a bye on the recalls. But with a caveat.
Most recalls are mandated by the regulator. Others are because of a simple cost analysis comparing a recall to likely litigation over known issues.
In short, Ford doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.
Instead, we should look at why those parts or systems ending up shipping with those flaws. Was the engineering and design done on Farley's watch? Did he, or people he chose, make decisions that led to those outcomes? That's a deeper and more complex question than simply "he issued too many recalls".
If his choices or policies led to shoddy product being shipped, then by all means replace him.
I live down the street from a large Ford/Lincoln dealer that gets a large amount of Shelbys, etc... either they never move inventory or they constantly get new supply, because their lot is always packed.
I wonder if Ford regrets axing the Escape and Focus in NA. I feel like there’s a lot of appetite for alternatives to the Civic/Corolla hybrids and RAV4/CR-V hybrids right now, so imagine if Ford had a Focus hybrid and Escape hybrid for sale right now.
I was pleasantly surprised with the Escape, and think it deserves more sales. It was quieter, rode better, and somehow felt like a nicer car on the road vs the previous gen RAV4. It made me realize that the RAV4 isn’t actually a nicer car than competitors despite the sales success.
Honestly just bring stateside the vehicles they build globally. PHEV Ranger, Everest, Puma, Mondeo, all the wacky stuff they sell in China. They're all vehicles that could compete domestically and help give ford a foothold in segments they have abandoned.
I was in the market for a nicely equipped F150 for months. I didn't 'need' a truck but I wanted one and professionally it would be useful to carry more stuff. I couldn't find what I wanted (nothing crazy, a well equipped Lariat) for less than 72-75k (and that's without the tonneau cover.)
On a whim I went to the Lexus dealer after a frustrating day at the Ford and they just happened to have the base model GX550 on site for exactly the same price. I don't think anyone in their right mind who doesn't legitimately need a truck bed would purchase an F150 Lariat over a GX550 if they were the same price.
Ford is crazy if they think their vehicles are competitive at the crowded 60-75k range. Explorer, Bronco, Ranger, and F150 are legit nice and competitive vehicles that are priced well beyond what somebody who wants one should pay.
Ford is deliberately pivoting to focus on upmarket vehicle types because they have higher profit margins. Ford’s C-suite is a game of musical chairs. Execs come in from other companies, work 3-7 years and then leave. They largely don’t give a shit about what the company will look like 15 years from now because frankly most of them will be long gone.
Outside of the Ford family, the board of directors doesn’t care either because their average age is like 63. They’re going to die before their decisions really hit the company hard.
I predict Ford will be the American Land Rover in 30 years. Using their brand recognition to sell small volumes of luxury 4x4s to people pretending to be more rugged than they really are.
Under the leadership of the fuckwit who spends all his time driving Chinese cars, threatening to offshore jobs, and paying other youtubers to advetise his lame ass podcast. Sounds about right.
VW and Audi are in a similar decline because the blatant cost cutting over at VWAG has backfired tremendously with the established customer base. The issue is especially bad with Audi right now, replacing every interior surface or function with a capacitive button, touchscreen or piano black plastic. Then they've went and dropped that same shitty interior throughout the entire lineup, from the $40K Q3 to the upcoming $150K+ RS6.
Fun fact: the new Audi Q5 is struggling so bad that it's currently cheaper than the Q3 when you factor in incentives.
The Ford dealer last year wouldn’t negotiate with me AT ALL on a maverick. That led me to get a Colorado which was a hunk of junk and I ended up selling.
As someone who purchased a Maverick in February, love the car. I had a Cayman 718s before and needed something that could handle ski & mountain trips and the Maverick has an incredibly solid driving experience as well as great on gas. Nice to see it is doing well still.
The question is, is it more economical to r&d smaller cars and retool assembly lines and wait it out. I’m not saying it’s going to go back to normal but it’s expensive to chase trends.
So the real question to Ford is, was it worth it? Was it worth getting rid of "lower profit margin" cars for higher suvs and trucks when they probably lost at least 30% of their customer base to other brands that they could've kept by continuing on those lower profit cars? My wife is one of them. She had a Ford sedan her entire life and will not entertain Ford as a company until they make another sedan.
I seriously have to ask, who is buying Lincolns? Has anyone in this thread ever even considered them when shopping for a new vehicle, or ever aspired to own one?
multiple family members of mine have owned Fords, which I have driven for various reasons, and it seems like the big problem is that they make bad cars that people don't like driving. My grandma was a lifelong Ford customer who was so upset by the experience of owning her Escape that when it finally died she went to Mazda and never looked back.
Sync was atrocious, replacement parts are sometimes impossible to find (the dealer once shrugged at her and said "I dunno" when she needed something fixed), the powershift debacle on the Focus is absolutely mind boggling, I do not understand how people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year as the top experts in this field make mistakes like this. They're an embarrassment of a company.
Would love for them to bring back smaller sedans and hatchbacks. The world needs a Focus. They could do a fuel efficient hybrid version and then give us enthusiasts a sporty RS trim. Win-win.
So, Ford alienated entry-level buyers by going all in on BOF trucks and SUVs with massive margins, then they stuck the Fusion hybrid powertrain into a truckified Escape to try to recapture some of those buyers who were flocking to Toyota and Honda… And now they’ve been shooting themselves in the foot so much that they’re losing buyers again.
Guess people are just gonna rush back to Toyota and Honda again!
Try the EU. They axed their most popular models only to bring back two lukewarm crossovers with fake nostalgic names they had to buy from VW to be able to have any kind of reasonable EV in the first place. And in a couple of years they’ll use the Renault EV base to bring back the Fiesta, way too late. They can’t even build a competitive small car themselves anymore.
The last ten years they’ve really shit the bed in the EV transition.
4x Lincoln owner - their dealer service departments are not great experiences, and Ford can't seem to figure software or cameras out. Every update they fix one thing and break 4. My Nautilus lease is up this month and I'm bailing on the brand.
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