Every time I drive my 981 I'm reminded of how slow it is compared to my Tesla transportation appliance. Then I compare the cost of ownership and wonder why the fuck do I even bother? If the 981 was depreciating like the typical ICE car I'd probably dump it.
Lol you missed the point entirely. The 981 has no performance edge. Not in a straight line, not in the twisties. All the "steering feel" in the world can't save it from the the fact that it's slow. I got the boxster early days of covid and hung on to it. Then a model 3 replaced my E class and the boxster immediately feld redundant. But I held on to it because the 3 was replaced by the MYP. And at this point the only thing the boxster has going for it is that it's a vert.
Can you take both Cars to the NĂźrburgring and then i'll interview you how the 981 has no edge in performance while the Marshalls are pulling your Model 3 out of the barrier you landed because the brakes failed?
> I just don't see the point of internal combustion anymore.
Came to the same conclusion a couple months into the lease of a '25 Equinox EV. And I'm a former ASE Master Tech and all around 'motor head'. Attended NASCAR events, local dirt tracks, autocrossed, etc.
All the smells, the endless gear changes required due to the ICE's very narrow rev range/power band, and the pollution created seem so outdated now. Quaint even but a bit sad.
Personal transportation started out as BEV, we've done a hundred years or so of liquid fuel power, and are slowly cycling back around to BEV.
It sounds like you've driven modified people movers. Electric equivalents of something like an X3M and an M5. If it were a purely ICE conversation a lot of people would say the X3M and M5 are competent but not exciting; that's the most frequent criticism of modern ICE performance cars.
In anoher comment you said you were comparing them to "a few 911s and an f87 m2 comp". That's not remotely a fair comparison.
If you haven't driven dedicated electric sports cars (and I doubt you have because there are only a handful), then I'd suggest waiting until the first true sports EVs come online in the next 2-3 years: Alpine A110, Caterham Project V, Longbow Speedster and Roadster, Renault R5 Turbo 3E, Porsche 718 and Audi Concept C.
I'm not pulling anything from my ass. Saying he enjoys ICE sports cars more than EVs when it's a 911 and M2 Comp vs a sporty crossover and a 5000 pound sedan is a foregone conclusion.Â
I said "I'd suggest waiting until the first true sports EVs come online." I meant he should wait until he drives a proper sports car before concluding EVs aren't very good at it.
There's none on the US market right now unless you can get your hands on a Nevera to try (as if it's easy to borrow a $2.5 million car). McMurtry was also doing invited test drives last year, but idk if that's still going on. It's also not street-legal so would be an unfair comparison on the other side. You could also try an old Tesla roadster. It's basically a 2800 pound Lotus Elise with batteries replacing the engine so weight distribution stays the same. Heavier than the Elise, but still light in the grand scheme.Â
Agreed on the Taycan. Very competent but not what I'd call "fun." The most rewarding EV I've driven is the Maserati Granturismo Folgore. But that only works if you like big GTs. Realistically, waiting is the best bet. Your Audi dealer would probably love to get you in the Concept C since you have an R8.
To be clear, I'm not expecting you to enjoy a sports EV more than any of your ICE sports cars. I'm just saying they should be a better experience than sporty versions of sedans and crossovers.
I mean, isnt it kinda weird to tell ICE enjoyers to go enjoy exciting EV Cars and then suggest the Nevera or other Cars that are millions? I'd say EV enjoyers should sit still and don't suggest EVs for Fun until something comes out thats truly exciting and fights at ICE prices, a Hyundai i5N is 19k more expensive than what i've paid for the R8 (used, but alas).
I also think its hard for EVs to be exciting Sedans, commuting in a E63 or RS5 is just for fun than sitting there, hearing nothing and having a 100 yard stare. When the alternative would be to have a rumble in the background, growling when you're moving.
I've said multiple times that there are no electric sports cars on the market right now (specifically under 7 figures or outside China). My point was that that doesn't mean that EVs can't be fun, which is the default opinion among petrolheads. That opinion is based on a false premise because there aren't any EVs designed for fun from the ground up that you can go and purchase. The Taycan and Ioniq 5N are modifications to cars designed to be transportation.
I listed those EVs because you asked what fun EVs you can drive now. I acknowledged the Nevera was an absurd suggestion. I also suggested the Tesla roadster.
> I also think its hard for EVs to be exciting Sedans
I have yet to drive any sedan I'd consider exciting.
> commuting in a E63 or RS5 is just for fun than sitting there, hearing nothing and having a 100 yard stare.Â
I have no desire to drive an E63 or RS5.
> When the alternative would be to have a rumble in the background, growling when you're moving.
I would genuinely detest that.
> i just never get an answer from EV guys on that Question.
I gave you a very clear answer. I also said realistically your best bet is to wait a couple of years. If you don't like the answer fair enough. But I answered your question directly. I gave you past (Tesla roadster), present (Nevera - acknowledging the absurdity), and near-term future (Concept C).
By the way, you should stop using your computer since quantum-Computing will be so much better, exciting and immersive, like turn off your PC right now would be the best case.
You say you can't even use quantum-computing right now? Well doh its still way better and i'd HATE to use a normal Computer, imagine that huh.
(I saw your post history and i'll stop answering now, since apparently you're on a EV-Crusade, good luck)
Nobody with any knowledge of quantum computing has ever said that.
I didn't say you should stop driving your ICE cars. I even said you'd likely not find EVs as exciting.
Since you can't have a conversation with someone who likes different things from you like an adult it is indeed best if we stop here.
I enjoy my mk7 gti more than any other ev I've driven. I could list all my expensive cars I've had and all my cheap cars I've had. There is no proper sportscar ev in the US also lmao
I agree there's no proper EV sports car right now. That's why I said you should wait for the proper ones before concluding EVs can't do sporty driving well.
On the track they're very fun, their centre of gravity is so low that they make a Ferrari feel like an SUV. Also always being at peak power is super fun in a track environment
Hmm, have you driven them on Track? I did 11 NĂźrburgring Laps and a Hockenheim Trackday in the Taycan to convince myself, but was let down.
But i'm also out there to enjoy the time, not chase Tracktimes.
In Germany thats called fighting for the Golden Ananas. Who cares if you're 2 seconds faster around a 2min Track, if you're sitting there with a 100-yard stare while i'm shedding happy tears about hitting the rev limiter.
> fun little EVs basically do not exist
Exactly. It's never a fair comparison. Just look at OP's list:
> Audi E-tron GT, Zeeker, BMW i3, and a Tesla 3
Now let's replace that list with some ICE competitors:
> I drove an Audi A7, Acura MDX, Citroen C3, and a Toyota Camry and I feel like driving a toy without a soul and personally lost all fascination or excitement with those cars.
Whats wrong with the E-Tron GT? Isnt it one of the sportiest, enjoyable EVs? I can't think of an affordable one that comes close to the Taycan/E-TronGT duo.
> and more in the camp that fun little EVs basically do not exist.
In the US, pretty much. Even the smallest mainstream EVs are the size of compact CUVs or mid-size cars.
Especially if they are driving an automatic ICE. Like I could understand driving a six speed manual and you canât replicate that with an EV but otherwise itâs push pedal and go in either car.
So you haven't driven exciting EVs, in exciting ways and are complaining that you lust after old performance cars. At that rate I can say I've driven any number of base ICE cars that have come out in the last 5 years and felt nothing, therefore all new ICE cars are dumb.
Looking at your flair, you seen like the type of person that tells people to stop being poor.
Of course if you have 500k with of cars then EVs are pointless and useless. The other 99% don't have that luxury
Huh? Why are you so hostile and don't answer my question? Would it help you when i tell you my Garage is fighting my childhood complexes of growing up in the back of an 80hp Diesel Renault Espace which i had to push-start several times a week with my siblings?
What do my Cars other than the Taycan have to do with this Discussion?
I even have an additional Question, which exciting EV do the 99% buy, that don't have "500k of Cars"? Imho exciting ICE are cheaper than any EV period, yet alone an exciting one.
Not really how that works but sure. I've driven pretty much every ev extensively around a track or around town for a while and can say that after you launch it once it's boring. I own a taycan too lol
I noticed that most if not all people that don't like EVs have never driven or owned one.
Have you seen an Alpine EV ? An Abarth EV? An MG cyberster ? EVs can and are very exciting but just like combustion cars 99% of them are boring commuters not worth mentioning.
I've driven nearly every single EV available for purchase in the US (work shit). I still prefer my ICE vehicles.
It doesn't help the US offerings in the space are pretty pedestrian. I also find people conflate 0-60 with the be-all-end-all of driving performance metrics and while I do enjoy my eyes going to the back of my head in a variety of vehicles, it's not the entirety of my fun in a car.
I did consider an Ioniq 5N for autocross, but after 2 friends both had major failures that required months and months of warranty work, I decided to stick to my "boycott hyundai/kia" life (due to previous experience). The Porsche EV offerings are super fun (and have hilarious depreciation), but the range anxiety for those is *actually* real in that getting to the track and back alone uses nearly the entire battery, and not even considering mountain driving where there's few chargers and the driving exceeds its range.
No offence here but you're not the general demographic. Most people don't have multiple high end sports cars at their disposal. They have an Accord or a RAV4 or some other bland ICE vehicle, I too would 100% stick with combustion cars if money was not an obstacle like it is for you but most people have to balance their car passion with their finances.
The Abarth 500 isnt exciting, its just ridiculous with its way-too-loud Speaker and low performance, a 595 will literally outrun it even on performance benchmarks.
The Alpine A290 has the same Horsepower that the Clio RS 2008 had, while carrying 900kg more weight (and not having a 8k+ Redline, love that 2l)
I've never seen an MG Cyberster, so no comment on that. What i can say though is, that the Taycan often gets praised as the fun / style benchmark for EVs and while its pretty, its soulless after NĂźrburgring, Hockenheimring, Dolomites and swiss alps.
I really donât care whether itâs ICE or EV or steam powered. I switched to a BYD Seal with a home charger last year and I do like how smooth and quiet it feels, and I donât miss waiting in line at the petrol station before / after work. So it does feel very much like Iâve âupgradedâ in that regard.
Had to switch back to an ICE car last month (Cadillac SRX) while the EV was in the repairs, and god it was like driving a freight train. Excruciatingly slow to pick up the pace after a red light. Thatâs literally the extent of my ICE / EV awareness and Iâm okay with that.
Youâre numb if you canât feel the immediate connection between your foot and power production in an EV. Throttle control is far far superior in a performance EV. You can have the smell, the sound and the heavy maintenance
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The sort of car you are talking about hasn't existed for a decade. Hydraulic steering has gone - drivers assistance doesn't work very well with them. Manuals are pretty much gone from mainstream cars too (unless you are talking about an auto and if you are, you probably aren't a driver either).
There isn't a mainstream, CVT equipped, electric steered, Front Wheel Drive, SUV that I would pick over an EV, even a Chinese one. None go as well off the line. None have the sort of throttle response an EV has. I'd rather have no noise than the drone those things make. The majority of ICE cars are anti - driver, far worse than an EV.
Funnily I'm old enough to remember when power steering and automatic transmissions started to become the norm. People complained about them ruining the driving experience too.
> no hydraulic steering
Nothing to do with EVs. Every car - EV or ICE - has EPAS. The only exceptions are the British: McLaren and Lotus (including an EV).
Why do we keep having to have this flame war over and over again like we're 12 years old and it's PSwhatever vs Xboxwhatever? If you don't understand why people enjoy aspects of ICE vehicles that aren't present in EVs, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Cars can be enjoyable because they're fast in a straight line or immediately responsive, but also because they sound awesome, feel raw, or any other number of characteristics. I can tell you without hesitation that I don't drive my 911, or a buddy's Huracan Evo, or another friend's Lusso then get into a Model S Plaid and think "yeah *this* is where it's at." EVs are cool in their own way, but they're not at all fun for me and that's not at all what feels to me like a "performance car".
You might not, but I have more fun in a 6 speed Golf TDI than in a Model 3 Performance.
Just sharing an opinion that agreed with you in some respects. That's kinda the point of a discussion forum. You're seem to be too defensive about this topic to get that, which is a real bummer.
My Bad, I am a bit defensive because this topic is posted nearly daily in here. And itâs annoying to see it over and over and over again. I still have five ICE vehicles and respect them for what they are. But for those that can find enjoyment in an EV, well thatâs an internal problem. Not a problem with the car.
Maybe I don't spend the same amount of time here as you, but I don't see this "nearly every day." I tend to skip over a lot of EV content, though, because so much of it is repetitive and just full of arguing of some kind or another. So maybe I do recognize that it's a consistent topic, haha. If it bothers you that much, it might be worth spending a bit less time on the sub.
I don't enjoy watching golf or playing baseball but I wouldn't call that "an internal problem", or any sort of problem for that matter. I'd call it a preference. Enjoyment is inherently subjective, and just like baseball, EVs (and loud, powerful ICE vehicles) are not enjoyable to everyone.
I've actually been chatting about college baseball some because I like when my team does well in any sport, so maybe not the best example for me to use, haha.
I'll say, though, that in a baseball-focused sub that would obviously be dumb. That'd be like going into an EV sub to talk about hating EVs (which I bet people do). In a more general sub, though, I would think that a discussion about why people don't find baseball enjoyable or even compelling in any way would be a perfectly acceptable topic.
> Additionally the new reddit layout forces this shit on you.
I use old reddit so thankfully have no idea what you're talking about.
My bike has better response than my parents tesla, but the Tesla also has software to make it smooth.
But thatâs not what oc means by connection. Try something with a mechanical throttle and hydraulic steering sometime, or a motorcycle.
I kinda thought that most people do this. Turns out I touch a lot of things when I'm out that other people have touched, not just gas pumps. ÂŻ\\_(ă)_/ÂŻ
Yes it's pretty normal for people to carry disinfecting wipes or hand sanitizer in their cars, not sure why the other person thinks I'm insane for doing that
I really place immense value on tactile controls with excellent feedback, mostly that means unboosted steering and brakes, manual transmission, mechanical throttle linkage, etc. I don't think there are any such EVs.
The vast majority of people use their cars to commute to work, run errands, and handle everyday tasks. What exactly do you want to feel while doing those things?
Maybe i'm an outlier, but i'm having a big party whenever i'm commuting. The Music is blasting, the sun is shining (or the rain is falling and i'm in a cool safe enclousure) and i'm in a vehicle that enables me to go wherever i want with it.
When i throw groceries in the Frunk of the R8/911 and start it up in the underground car park i'll smile like a donkey getting a Papaya.
I also have fun in the Taycan, its just missing that something.
When commuting to work, I often feel despair. When commuting from work, I often feel despair at the idea that I will have to commute to work the next day.
I drove a f150 lightning for a week in Texas. Idk mobbing around in one felt pretty good and at home. Did some roll races with a random gti and 370z. Idk it was cool. It rode reaaaaly nice for a truck.
Would totally consider buying one if they werenât so gd expensive .
They look nice, but I could never live with that many screens in the interior, especially since they removed literally every button or physical control that isn't on the wheel, a stalk, or door card.
I think if youâre always dependent on the car to give you something, instead of finding what youâre looking for inside yourself, youâre gonna find a way to be unhappy no matter what youâre in. Lots of cars can be joyful experiences if you look for the joy in the experience. If youâre looking to dislike it, then you probably will.
I love driving. I love driving in my economy car, my sportscar, my crossover. Iâd love to have an EV. I also want a track car.
At this point, people who donât like EVâs arenât car people. Theyâre identity cosplayers and EVâs donât fit into the identity cosplay they want to participate in. And thatâs fine. But theyâre not car people.
> At this point, people who donât like EVâs arenât car people. Theyâre identity cosplayers and EVâs donât fit into the identity cosplay they want to participate in. And thatâs fine. But theyâre not car people.
EVs don't do the things I really enjoy. I think they make a lot of sense for a lot of people, but I have no interest in them because they don't do the things I care about.
Yes. Thatâs fair. Most of the cars I want to buy are ICE as well. The point Iâm trying to make is actually > â*the people who shit on EVâs as if they fucked their wife*â are not car people, theyâre identity cosplayers.
If you donât absolutely unravel at the mention of a car company launching a new EV, then youâre not the problem. IMHO.
> I also enjoy seeing them fall behind in my rearview mirror on any road with curves or a windy ramp
That just means you drive like an insane person on public roadsÂ
Mostly yes, though I do like seeing the occasional Ioniq 5N! That's the only EV that I really find exciting currently, and when the I6N is available (used, ideally) that'd probably be the first EV I'd be interested in owning. Everything else available here in the states just seems so pedestrian. Got to drive the I5N once on an autocross course at a Hyundai sponsored event at Sonoma Raceway, and that was eye opening. Handled like a big hot hatch, really, and as cheesy as some people probably find it, the fake noises, gearshifts, etc added that extra bit of engagement that I think I'd be looking for.
You're condemning EVs for things they can't (at least yet) give you.
They're not enthralling cars to drive, no. They're peaceful and calm.
They excel at commuting and congested city driving.
Where an ICE auto will drive you nuts constantly shifting up to early and down to late, never in the power band, or a manual will have you riding the clutch endlessly, EVs always have power amd don't have to shift.
An EV will get you around where you're going peacefully and calmly, like a limousine. That's what they're good at, and better than ICE for.
They suck at dynamic driving as they are one-trick ponies that fast run out of juice when driven hard and are overweight pigs.
> Where an ICE auto will drive you nuts constantly shifting up to early and down to late, never in the power band, or a manual will have you riding the clutch endlessly, EVs always have power amd don't have to shift.
I really enjoy good clutchwork. A crisp double clutched heel/toe shift is a joy, even in heavy traffic. I would not give up that joy.
I was watching some [JayEmm videos on TVRs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuChxQwx4U) the other day, remembering the era when the Brits handbuilt crazy sportscars in a shed inbetween trips to the pub in the middle of the workday. EU regulations? Safety features? Nyahhhh, bugger that boring nonsense. Let's just put 450 hp V8 in a car weighing 1000 kg and forget about traction control.
Such car is mental and uncomfortable, but it's entirely understandable and human with its faults. It's a work of art, that as a piece of art is infinitely more desirable than a sterile, perfected, mass produced poster of an EV.
God I want one.
> Let's just put 450 hp V8 in a car weighing 1000 kg and forget about traction control.
I daily drive such a thing. Its a very fun, friendly car that's shockingly easy to drive fast and hugely rewarding.
I've been against EVs because of range concerns as we use my car for road trips but I've been warming up to them as the manual has been dying out. Don't really like how a lot of newer SUVs are turbocharged now, not sure how long the engine will last. The only SUVs out now with a manual are the Bronco (only in the 4 cylinder) and the Wrangler but those aren't really known for reliability.Â
I'm not in the market for sports cars or sedans as I have kids. I have a 6MT Subaru Forester and not needing to change oil every 5k miles will be nice. I'm going to check out the extended range Scout Traveler when it comes out. I might check out the new Nissan (Xterra) and Mitsubishi (Pajero/Montero) models when they come out, sounds like they'll be NA. If Mitsubishi makes a Delica I will check that out too.
But the lack of manuals and turbocharged engines in the name of mileage and fuel efficiency made me a little more open to EVs with the only one I like so far being the Scout. Though with the dumbass politicians in my state (California) reportedly pushing for a rolling resistance law for tires I might buy an ICE vehicle with all terrain tires out of spite.
https://www.autoblog.com/news/californias-fuel-saving-tire-rule-could-make-drivers-replace-tires-more-often
EVs can be awesome, but we have like no cool EVs. But the good ones are AWESOME. My mother has a taycan 4S and it drives like nothing else, it feels very connected, very powerful and good, handles brilliantly. The IONIQ 5N is basically a brilliant EV hot hatch that drives like nothing else, everyone who has driven one says its amazing. We had a standard IONIQ 5 a while ago and it was awesome. My dads hummer EV is just goofy and silly and handles surprisingly well lol. Also the cars you drove, the Zeeker, I3 and model 3 are just normal ass cars, of course they feel like ass, every other normal car feels like a dull soulless appliance, BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE FFS. Also Teslas are made by people who despise driving and want soulless blobs because tech or smth. The problem is we lack cool EVs, here in america we have like no EV sports cars, EV hot hatchs or anything, the only ones we have are insanely expensive. Like an EV Hot Hatch would be Awesome or an EV 2 door sports cars would be great. Im waiting for what we will see. Also VW, Chevy and Ford make an EV hot hatch and sell it here please EV GTI, Bolt SS, EV Fiesta ST please. I would buy it
I find the engineering much more interesting, because efficiency and fast charging matter. Advancements in technology matter, scalability and costs matter.
Climate change is a massive threat to human lives, global stability, and a prosperous global economy. We need solutions for decarbonization, and every little helps.
I also used to like big engines. They are cool, but not meaningful in the grand scheme of things.
I don't entirely agree with opbut he dies have a point. Let me elaborate :
1. Most Evs despite the performance are dailies (not entirely a bad thing). They all follow the regular sedan market which us good.
2. There Seems to be a gap (there I say lack of) affordable, sporty and fun Evs made just of fun. I'm not talking about big numbers instead I'm referring to miata level ev.
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