Why don’t you learn from history?
Posted by AdvancedAd3228@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 73 comments
A few short months ago, someone from Albania asked: “What do we have to lose by being on the side of the United States?”
After the latest developments, I hope the answer is a little clearer to you now.
Didudidudadu737@reddit
Well for Albania it has been some good decades being friendly with US, who can blame them for taking on opportunities like that. But same Albania is too small to not expect giving something in return, as in besides the territory what else is there that Albania can offer to US?!
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Kurdish militias fought against ISIS to seize land and establish a state. It is very normal that states fight against groups who try to seize land inside their borders and gain independence. If I do it in a European country, I don't think that people will be happy.
Kurds represent 5% of Syria yet they seized 30% of Syrian territory. It was one of the biggest success of Turkey to prevent our neighbor nation to get divided and get a US backed separatist state in our borders.
No-Key629@reddit
They mostly took control over the areas where they were an ethnic majority in.
There is exactly 0 reasons as to why they should not be allowed to have a state of their own.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Isis ypg and syrian government each carried so many ethnic cleansing that it’s impossible to come to any such conclusions. Even if you have a prewar record of population and it’s true, it begs the question, should every minority have the right to seperate? African immigrants in France accumulate in Paris for example, should Paris no longer belong to the French? How do you even keep a record of ethnicities unless there is clear segregation? Should countries keep track of such ethnicities and implement segregation? To combat seperatist movements, should countries block the right of immigration?
Assad regime had problems maybe, some of it was amplified by foreign actors and groups were armed. At the end no one is better than the other. The problems are still there and worse. How is this better for anyone
No-Key629@reddit
Yes, self determination is a basic human right. Hold some fair referendums and have the people make their choice.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
And if the referandum says no?
No-Key629@reddit
Then the status quo prevails.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
But you also open the page of status quo being against basic human rights. It becomes a propaganda warfare and it’s easy to sell. It attracts imperialist powers to meddle in and no one becomes happy.
That’s why Europe doesnt have these problems. They can meddle and middle east cant. They fuel the ideas in the first place. Simple as that.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
I already included in 2 of the maps where they are the majority and were they took. This is the area where they are the majority. Most of the Kurds in Syria are the refugees that escaped Turkiye after Kurdish rebellions were suppressed by the Turkish state and settled in Qamishli. There's no mention of Kurds in Syria prior to that and in the documents of 19th century.
Now it's up to you to compare it with the map of YPG controlled areas before the Turkish intervention.
No-Key629@reddit
Ok? So? What's your point?
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
It was just a fact.
You told me they were the majority in a land that makes 30% of Syria. No they were not and it was impossible to become 30% of Syria in a century after they've arrived.
Plus you also told that they deserved a land, maybe they shouldn't get this land in a country that they've arrived as migrants in 20th century.
Most of the cities captured by YPG were never Kurdish majority, Kurds are mostly located in the borders with Turkey, since they've arrived from there not so long ago. Many Arabs were displaced after YPG invaded their towns.
No-Key629@reddit
Ok so I did some googling and there are several mentions of Kurds having entire districs in cities like Damascus, Kurdish tribes were already migrating from Anatolia into Syria as early as the 18th century.
And even if you don't belive any of that why does that matter? Why does it matter when they arrived into Syria? They're therr now and have been for a century at the minimum, they deserve a state.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
In 19th century, there were many multiple groups that existed in Syria since it was an imperial region. As there were British in Crimea during 19th century. But Kurds were not counted in the demographics of Syria, they were not a factor in Syria until mid 20st century.
I agree that they deserve a country, they are literally 40 millions of people.
But seizing Northern Syria where they arrived from Turkey as refugees after 1923 and invading Arab lands with US aid isn't a good idea. These people aren't even Levantine.
Kurds are an Iranic people. Their homeland is the Iranian Plateau, this is where they were distributed to Anatolia and Mesopotamia.
If Jews did seek homeland in Palestine where they came from, why shouldn't Kurds seek their homeland in Northeastern Iran where they are originated from instead of messing with Arabs and Turks?
No-Key629@reddit
No, the Kurds live in Turkey, Syria and Iraq today. Where they originated does not matter and they deserve a country of their own.
Btw, didn't Turks come from Central Asia? By your own logic shouldn't the Turks move out of their country and give it back to their previous owners?
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
If Turks were a stateless population living in multiple countries. I'd be 100% pro-idea that Turks getting a state in Central Asia instead of betraying their hosting country because "They also deserve" a land.
No-Key629@reddit
They do deserve a land though, just as much as Turks do. Also, how is giving Kurds some land seen as betrayal?
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Because this land mass isn't theirs. They are an Iranic people and Syria belongs to the Syrians. It is the ancient land where Assyrians lived for milleniums. Kurds as an Iranic people have no claim just because they live there. If Turkey ceases to exists one day, Turks in Berlin won't be justified to take land from Germany. Because that land belongs to Germans not Turks.
VagHunter69@reddit
There technically is nothing against any people having their state, but Syria and Iraq are well within their rights to not give up parts of their territory. Also Kurdish militia have ethnically cleansed Arabs and Turkmen from many parts you'd now call "Kurdish majority." Especially in Syria recently. Hardly a secret.
No-Key629@reddit
They should give up parts of their territory though (including Turkey). Self-determination is a human right.
Cefalopodul@reddit
Kurds only seized the territory where they are a majority. Most of Syria's population lives on the coast.
Early-Show2886@reddit
And what about the Romanians after 1877–78? They dispossessed the Turks and Tatars of their land; entire villages vanished, and many people emigrated to Anatolia as a result.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
If Turks in Balkans seized the control of their villages and tried to establish a "Turkestan" their, the Balkan countries would call them terrorists, and they would have been right about it.
Because Bulgaria belongs to Bulgarians. Romania belongs to Romanians. Greece belongs to Greeks.
So does Syria belongs to Syrians. Iraq belongs to Iraqis and Turkey belongs to the Turks.
Early-Show2886@reddit
ne tuhaf.
then read this:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331983766_Why_did_They_Leave_Perceptions_on_the_Turkish_Emigration_from_Dobrogea_to_Turkey_1918-1940
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Can you summarize?
Early-Show2886@reddit
Turks left the Dobruja primarily for the following reasons: Loss of Ottoman Rule (1878): Following the Russo-Ottoman War, the region fell under the control of Romania and Bulgaria. Overnight, the Turks went from being the ruling class to a minority. The new governments seized land from large-scale Muslim landowners and redistributed it to Romanian and Bulgarian settlers in a deliberate effort to "nationalize" the region.
uoguner@reddit
We got forcibly expelled. (Dobrudjan Circassian) But the process was forced by russians and executed by them and also bulgarians, whole expulsion ended before russians handed over the land to romanians.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
My grandfather also told me that Russian displaced us many times but I never heard any Romanian involvement, nor that I heard a major event where Romanians pogrommed us.
Early-Show2886@reddit
So I was right. You don't like the remaining Turks and Tatars in the Dobruja.
You don't like the Yörük Turks of North Macedonia.
Or the Turks of Bulgaria.
So what is all this chatter about how you do like your Turks and Tatars? Just for show?
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
I come from the Turks of Dobruja. Here, I'm trying to say we Turks didn't do what Kurds did and we never tried to steal land from our hosting country.
That was what I was trying to say but you misunderstood me.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Until 1877–78, it was our land—our villages.
Dobruja belonged directly to the Ottoman Empire.
After 1877–78, much changed.
Especially in Bulgaria; there, the Turks always fared worse than in the Romanian part.
Cefalopodul@reddit
Peak whataboutism.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Your response reveals your insolent behavior—though that comes as no surprise to me. Your hatred of Turks was instilled in you, for you are almost certainly a fourth- or fifth-generation Romanian diaspora member living in an English-speaking country.
Cefalopodul@reddit
And the whataboutism continues. Can you feel shame?
Thialaz@reddit
Kurds don't deserve a country just because more of them live in a specific area.
They never had a country to begin with either.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
I think they do deserve a country, they are literally 40 millions of people.
But seizing Northern Syria where they arrived from Turkey as refugees after 1923 and invading Arab lands with US aid isn't a good idea. These people aren't even Levantine.
Kurds are an Iranic people. Their homeland is the Iranian Plateau, this is where they were distributed to Anatolia and Mesopotamia.
If Jews did seek homeland in Palestine where they came from, why shouldn't Kurds seek their homeland in Northeastern Iran where they are originated from instead of messing with Arabs and Turks?
Thialaz@reddit
and? What's that got to do with anything?
Which country do you think is peacefully just going to hand over their land to a group of people? You are LITERALLY just going to have another "israel" on your hands. A group of monsters, stealing the land of others.
Doesn't matter if the jews can trace their origin back to palestine. That shit was so long ago it has no relevancy. Otherwise China can also say "well these lands belonged to china in ancient times, so because of that we have the right to invade and claim them back".
Jews were already living everywhere else. This weird notion they "deserve" a homeland is idiotic.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Kurds were not the majority in Deir ez-Zor and Raqqah, the first map here shows were they were the majority.
Most of the Kurds in Syria are the refugees that escaped Turkiye after Kurdish rebellions were suppressed by the Turkish state and settled in Qamishli. There's no mention of Kurds in Syria prior to that and in the documents of 19th century.
Swaggy_Linus@reddit
Turks after arming al-Qaida and ethnically cleansing Kurds from Afrin:
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
At least in the end we helps Sharaa to take power and Sharaa didn't declare Shariah and instead copied Erdoğan's constitution, which is better than being a theocratic emirate.
Swaggy_Linus@reddit
Yes, you really respected Syria's integrity by occupying its north for ten years, imposing Turkish as administrative language and planting your shitty flags everywhere. Classroom from Afrin:
thedevilwithout@reddit
More recently
The GCC who were left to face Iran's missiles and drones for a war their ally started
Or the South Koreans who had their patriot system withdrawn so it can be used to protect Israel
Or Europe who almost had to go to war with the US because of Greenland
Etc etc etc
127x108@reddit
THAAD was removed from south korea, which is for big rockets (not to use any more complex terms)
thedevilwithout@reddit
It was removed because Iran blew up the one in the Middle East
russianspy4567@reddit
Tbh it's just that the other side is worse
Albania is currently basically forced to be allies with the USA because it's biggest enemy is close to russia
If Serbia didn't exist I think that Albania would have long allied itself with the other factions at play here but that's not the case
Tbh it's either the USA or Europe and I believe they are choosing the wrong part of the same side especially with Donald Trump in power
But if America gets a better leader then maybe but still idk it's really Albania siding with Israel that's the problem here
But meh nothing ever happens so who cares
VisibleReport5008@reddit
what could usa possibly do there. Balkans are a rather civilized place rn if you consider the world.
VagHunter69@reddit
It's not even been a hundred years and we are possibly moving into another world war, and how unlikely is it that the Balkan becomes another theater?
Hot_Distribution_131@reddit
All of the Balkans except Serbia and Bosnia is in NATO. There is no point of war between NATO countries. No one will win. No one wants to fight. These are things of the past. I hope we welcome all of the Balkans in the EU one day.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
Kinda irrelevant(no offence) countries surrounded by nato. And I'd imagine EU would foresee this time and maybe learn a lesson from the ukraine war. And the only possible war senario I can think is russia stirring via serbia and I doubt russia has the same strength.
Inevitable_Motor_685@reddit
Emphasis on rn
determine96@reddit
Idk for Albanians, but in our case is better for USA to learn some history.
We will betray them before they can betray us. 😎
127x108@reddit
As a serb, laughed out loud hahah
phantoms1n@reddit
As a Hercegovac i also laughed. Strange I've actually never met a Bulgarian in my entire life, wondering if they are even real
Hot_Distribution_131@reddit
Hi, haven't heard of them.
rewarrr@reddit
Kurds are fighting turkey, iraq, syria, iran, isis, al-quaeda, hay'at tahrir al-sham, free syrian army, hezbollah(in syria). With US support, they have continued to resist and survive. The US. is a country that often supports groups and nations fighting against authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. They don't necessarily care whether those groups are good or bad.. what matters is that they are not trying to become a regional superpower or conquer lands that do not belong to them. Take Gaddafi as an example.
The US is willing to help because, from its perspective, it is often a matter of strategic interests and business. For some countries, such as Greece, the alliance is mutually beneficial and fair. There is nothing wrong with being allied with the US. What can be risky is rejecting major powers outright when they offer cooperation, especially if doing so could put your nation's interests at a risk.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
US is not willing to “help” anyone. They make a tool out of you if you are willing or useful enough. Once it’s done, the chances are you are their next target
rewarrr@reddit
I already said, US is looking to their benefits for them it's a business. It's not necessary bad for those who need their services. Which superpower will "help" you with nothing in return?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
You also say they help fight against authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. When they manipulate the rise of those regimes it stops being a “help”. The opposition is a pawn like the regime who was brought to power by them. In the end you both lose.
samvarr@reddit
Stop labeling the PKK and YPG as “Kurds”. There’s millions of Kurds that don’t agree with those Marxist Leninist terrorist organizations that facilitate drug trade to Europe, kidnap children, and kill civilians.
rewarrr@reddit
OP labelled them. I just corrected him. I don't support those movements Aswell.
127x108@reddit
There is no "help" in geopolitics. There are only interests. Ask yourself what are those and you'll understand.
Critical-Ad-8507@reddit
Lmao,this is just the NORM for geopolitical alliances!
Countries are allies,but never friends!They all have their own interests and stay only as long as both sides are benefitting,then the one who no longer benefits leaves and the others should be ready for that ahead of time.
mohammeddddd-@reddit
Your government will be bought and paid for, stifling, or even punishing, all progress or movement towards sovereignty. Speaking from experience.
Daki399@reddit
Albania has been lobbying millions and millions into US politicians over the years , its an open corruption . They know how to suck up to most powerful nation
Yoshi9424@reddit
people believing isis was an islamist organization and america wanted to help kurds is funny lmao
all they fuking do is stir up corruption and wars in that region with insane false flag operations
Elsek1922@reddit
Well...
If you help the buly from other neighborhood to opress your neighbors dont cey when bully leaves.
Simple logic
ZRB_Red@reddit
If people knew how to read history they wouldn't blindly support the current Ukrainian leadership.
Flimsy-Resident261@reddit
Here’s a thing, Albania’s “love” for USA didn’t start in 1999. Paris Peace Conference, Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia (at that time Kingdom of Serbia, Croats and Slovenia) claimed territories of Albania. They had a secret agreement. Wilson( president of USA) rejected the secret Treaty of London and his influence helped Albania survive WWI and not being split by a secret agreement. So, historically USA has been a great ally
Playful-Alfalfa5729@reddit
This is like saying "What do we have to lose by being on the side of the British?" in the 19th century as an irrelevant country.
Etsikaietsi@reddit
Maybe using more USA flags in the protests and building another statue will help your cause?
IksDe01@reddit
Time to pay the piper.
harvestt77@reddit
Very thoughtful and educated answer! , personally, am very clear now!
Open-Investigator-52@reddit
I am pretty sure that in the next decade shit is gonna happen with most likely Hotspot being Kosovo. They will do something stupid and get jumped by Serbia and most likely FYROM.
seanugengar@reddit
Spitting bars