should Turkey be given F-35's? what do you think?
Posted by SOHONEYSAME@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 319 comments
Posted by SOHONEYSAME@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 319 comments
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
expensive garbage, as iran showed. i'd rather spend all that money on naval power to push out the sea claims.
solor84@reddit
Meet our neighbors. I wonder why they want the islands demilitarized.
Dwanvea@reddit
Because you guys agreed to it? Look at the Treaty of Lausanne and The Paris Peace Treaty. The islands were agreed not to be militarized.
The question is, why do you want them militarized?
Inner_Variety2826@reddit
Why? Take a look at your fellow compatriots in this thread.
I haven't had to look that hard for them, all these responses were under the comment you were replying to. So yes, the treaty of Lausanne states the demilitarization of some islands in eastern Aegean (Lesbos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria) but when your "neighbor" makes claims like that I think it's warranted to be a bit worried and alarmed. I think people make it a bigger issue than it really is, so even though it's a breech of the treaty it's something that can easily change if those threats and claims stop and Turkey becomes less hostile towards Greece. Sadly the same can't be said for previous breaches of the treaty that what damage is done is irreplaceable.
Dwanvea@reddit
What threats from Turkey? Nobody here cares about greek islands besides their military activity. Also, who said, "Make türkiye great again?", lmao, this is comical, definitely trolls. Also, what breach did Turkey commit on the treaty?
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
A bunch of breaches, like not implementing the autonomous status of Imbros and Tenedos, purging the minority that was meant to be protected in Constantinople, the remilitarization of the Straits, and even the Cyprus invasion, since in the treaty of Lausanne, Turkey gave up all claims to Cyprus.
Dwanvea@reddit
I think you are right on Istanbul because of "Varlık vergisi" but the islands are more nuanced. Most of the population decline was a byproduct of economic reasons.
Turkey apparently ended things like Greek education on the islands, and the reason being was lack of attendance since not enough Greeks were left in the first place. I couldn't find anything regarding a forced deportation, though.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
How are the islands more nuanced? They were supposed to have autonomous administration with local police and this was never implemented.
Dwanvea@reddit
We had some population policies for those islands. They received programs to incentivize Turkish immigration i.e "şirinköy". Our government basically paid some Turkish people to go and settle there.
A special quasi-autonomous administration. However, no region that belongs to Turkey had such status given at its foundation.
The modern Republic of Turkey was established as a unitary and highly centralized system.
The islands' situation was incoherent and incompatible with the government. Turkey was just founded at that time, and apparently, it was deemed a systematic threat to the young republic that could be exploited in the future.
Apparently, we abolished that autonomous administration, citing international laws regarding national unity and whatnot, shortly after the treaty.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
So this part of the treaty was violated because it was in Turkey's national interest to do so, right?
Greece is also citing the right of self defense under article 51 of the UN charter to militarize the islands. Seems fair.
Inner_Variety2826@reddit
Government members posing with maps depicting Greek islands as Turkish, your President repeatedly making statements such “We can come down suddenly one night when the time comes.” "our missiles can reach Athens" etc....
In the treaty of Lausanne they were a few groups that were exclude be the population exchange and well grant safety and protection, those being the Muslim population of western Thrace (around 130.000 people) and the Greek Orthodox population of Instabul, Gökçeadaz and Bozcaada (270.000 people). The population of officially recognized Muslim minority of western Thrace is estimated to be unchanged while the Greek population of Istanbul, Gökçeada and Bozcaada is nowhere to be found.
Dwanvea@reddit
Our galaxy emperor really said that, didn't he?
Greeks left Gökçeada and Bozcaada for various reasons, mainly because of some state policies, but still, Turkey didn't expel them directly. So, although what happened is unethical, I don't think this can be considered a direct breach of the article on the same level as militarizing the islands.
Also that whole population number you got is almost completely from İstanbul.
There weren't that many Greeks in gökçeada. The whole population of the island was around 6000 before the treaty and was around 9000 during 1960s. Bozcaada's population was even lower with around 2000 people.
Istanbul is a different story, but still, most of the migrations happened after Greece joined the EU, and again, it wasn't because Turkey forced them.
kostas_vo@reddit
"Nobody here cares about Greek islands".
It seems they've taken this statement way too literally, because Turkey ignores any island that is inconveniently placed for them, in order to split the Aegean down the middle with their claimed EE. Having disagreements over the EEZ was expected, declaring that territorial water expansion is a cause for war is outrageous, talking about "gray zones" and islands of disputed status in the Aegean is aggressive, expansionist and a clear threat.
Turkey had a treaty obligation to protect the native Greek population of Imbros/Gökçeada, Tenedos/Bozcaada and Istanbul.
In 1930, 98% and 66% of those islands were Greeks, and about 100k Greeks live in Istanbul. Today, 95% and 99% of the islands are Turks, and there are 2k Greeks in Istanbul. If this isn't a breach, I don't know what is.
Dwanvea@reddit
There are unfortunate cases such as "varlık vergisi" that pushed many minorities out of turkey but majority of events weren't caused by Turkey itself.
Besides the population exchange agreement that happened in 1920s. The majority of migrations from Turkey to Greece happened after Greece joined the EU. You can look the numbers up, and you may guess why. What's Turkey supposed to do in this case? Give them money to make them stay?
solor84@reddit
Research when the islands were reinforced militarily. This happened after Cyprus invasion and after a year later Turkey build an assault army right across the Aegean islands. We have every right to defend our islands especially when the neighbor is aggressive. Moreover, the weapons are defensive and not offensive so what's the issue?
Dwanvea@reddit
Cyprus was invaded after the Greeks staged a coup. Also, you can't defend the island with missiles and artillery systems. If it were only Patriots and other defence systems, it would be justified, but they are offensive installations.
OkHoneydew1599@reddit
The Paris Peace Treaty was between us and Italy. If the Italians have a problem, they can tell us. You don't get to invoke a treaty which you haven't signed
The Treaty of Lausanne says « (1) No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.
(2) Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.
(3) The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory »
As you can read, this explicitly allows us to have military force in the said islands. There is no demilitarized status. There are only some limitations, which we largely follow
We don't have a naval base in any of those islands, only naval stations. Do you fly over Greek islands, on the other hand? Since we're talking about who doesn't follow the Treaty? Do you have an Aegean Army perhaps? Do you question some of the islands' sovereignty perhaps?
The only islands which indeed had true demilitarized status were Lemnos and Samothrace, but said status was abolished when you remilitarized the straits, as recognized by the Turkish government at the time
Dwanvea@reddit
You have your history in reverse. You didn't militarize the islands against Turkey's Aegean army. Turkey founded the army against the militarization of the islands. Airspace violations go both ways, mostly a political show for both countries. Also, you need to check this .
As for Cyprus, Turkey invaded Cyprus in response to a coup orchestrated by the Greek military junta. It was done to save Turkish citizens. Turkey had the right to do this by the Treaty of Guarantee of 1960. That army you speak of also got created after the Greeks staged a coup in Cyprus, not before.
devoker35@reddit
Turkey wants them demilitarised because of treaty of Lausanne article 13 states that.
OkHoneydew1599@reddit
The Treaty of Lausanne says « (1) No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.
(2) Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.
(3) The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory »
As you can read, this explicitly allows us to have military force in the said islands. There is no demilitarized status. There are only some limitations, which we largely follow
We don't have a naval base in any of those islands, only naval stations. Do you fly over Greek islands, on the other hand? Since we're talking about who doesn't follow the Treaty? Do you have an Agean Army perhaps? Do you question some of the islands' sovereignty perhaps?
The only islands which indeed had true demilitarized status were Lemnos and Samothrace, but said status was abolished when you remilitarized the straits, as recognized by the Turkish government at the time
devoker35@reddit
No, (3) specifically states the personnel to be limited to military service training. We both know Greece's aim is to use the islands as front line defence/deterrence.
Straits' status was to be determined later according to Lausanne and it was in Montreux Convention which Greece was also a part of.
In addition to this Paris treaty article 14 (2) states the islands to stay demilitarised.
I am not saying Turkey is not aggressive but it is obvious that Greece ignores the treaties.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Because that’s the law you agreed to.
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
the reason we are pushing is you have a one mile limit on our seas which is laughable.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Lol it doesn't matter if the entire Greek army is on those islands, they are too vulnerable to defend
Stock_Plenty8987@reddit
Quite the opposite, air dominance is basically the only think that kept the usa "on top", they cant use the land army, they would need to put "boots on the ground" (a political, warfare and econimic suicide), they cant really use the navy that much, they dont let Trump use the nukes (thank god), so the only thing they have is the airforce that is and overwhelming force for iran to face, and strikes from veeryy faaar, wich is the only reason why the us only has 13 deaths, while Iran thosand upon thousands, and who knows how many wounded. Also you understimate how fucking expansive warships (the navy in general) are compared to jets (and compared to the airforce in general), and also ignore how in modern warfare medium-big warships are much more vulnerable to drones attacks and small kamikaze ships, more than jets thats for sure. I kinda like this stuff so i wach videos about it, and i can tell you Turkye's navy is already exelent, so are drones, and the land army is also doing more than fine. The only part where the turkish military is lacking is the airforce, that is where yhey should invest in
JadedArgument1114@reddit
Lol how are you guys so aggressive and expansionist but such cry baby victims at the same time?
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
who said we are victims? we are taking what we want and not apologizing or crying to eu daddy
Adept_Bison2070@reddit
Hahahahahahahaha ease your tits mate...war is not a video game..you would shit your pants right away when you realize you are canon folder
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
wars are fought with professional armies, i'm not sayin i'm running to the front lol. i'm talking about the fire power.
Adept_Bison2070@reddit
You may be conscripted...simple as that
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
nah, too old now
Adept_Bison2070@reddit
Hahahahaha let the young die for people that jerk off with war scenarios..
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
let the young die for our rights that are infringed on. that's the way of the world.
No_Designer_8203@reddit
Make Turkiye Great Again!
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
more like make greece, cyprus, and israel respect our boundaries
kostas_vo@reddit
Turkey telling CYPRUS, an island they invaded and continue to occupy for 50 years to "respect their boundaries" is completely crazy.
No_Designer_8203@reddit
Nah, that's not good enough. Btw, looks like you guys could be next. I hope I'm wrong.
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
yes we are, and they are going to get what's coming to them.
ilikedogsandfrogs@reddit
Naval power is in a weird situation in modern war. Probably not the best time to invest into that till the waters clear.
johnybea@reddit
What did Iran show ? LOL one f35 was damaged not destroyed in a month of non stop bombings
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
ironincally to quote the 300; you just need to show the god bleeds
No_Idea_479@reddit
No-Heart3432@reddit
Igneoac isn't bliss all the time. Moronic statement.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
The decision will be made in Tel Aviv and I’m pretty sure the answer will be no.
Monterenbas@reddit
I mean, Turkey was litteraly on the waiting list for F-35 and they decided they prefered to go with russian S-400 instead.
ReasonableFish8445@reddit
Its reverse, the training equipment delivery for f-35s has been stopped and Turkey bought s-400 to have some sort of air protection
Monterenbas@reddit
Funny because i don’t remember any Turkish media mentioning that excuse back in the day, it was all about the US « refusing » to sell patriot to Turkey. Wasn’t aware you guys changed the story.
ReasonableFish8445@reddit
I live in Turkey and no media mentioned f-35s, just to save face they said how great the new S-400 missiles etc.
Light0fDesire@reddit
Do you think the only reason is S400?
If israel says no, it’s no. S400 is just an excuse.
MartinBP@reddit
Yeah sure, keep telling yourself the Jews control the world, that definitely doesn't make you look like raving lunatics.
Light0fDesire@reddit
jews controls nothing but Trump. but israel wouldn’t want to sell most developed aircraft to one of their target countries, right? because we can see their media raging against Turkey since months.
it’s easy to talk while not involved in the subject.
Lonely-Ad8869@reddit
Good stuff. Go Bibi!
Overall-Bandicoot655@reddit
Considering Turkey and Israel are in a collision course in Syria, it will most likely be so.
-Passenger-@reddit
Wasnt Turkey a development Partner and got thrown out of the program because they acquired the S400 system from the Russians?
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
Yes. Can't sit on both chairs.
ucantekne34@reddit
the reason why we got S-400 was because our """allies""" wouldn't sell patriots.
also for some reason noone cared when greece got s-300s back then
rintzscar@reddit
Why are you lying? I don't understand that about Turks. Why are you constantly lying? Do you think we won't notice?
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
He isnt lying, you are just unable to accept it
rintzscar@reddit
He's quite literally lying, and so are you.
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us-state-department-clears-35-billion-sale-of-patriot-missiles-to-turkey-idUSKBN1OI03D/
My question is not "is he lying?". That he's lying is a fact. My question is why?
Why do Turkish people constantly lie online? It's mind-boggling. I ask again, is it a cultural thing?
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
Us Turkish people arent constantly lying. Of course it always look like we are lying to you since you Europeans never admit that you are wrong (wich is understandable since it pretty much settled in modern European culture)
But yeah, we arent lying
rintzscar@reddit
Got the link proving he's lying, continues to lie to my face.
Thanks for proving my point.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
Asked a question, got an answer that he didnt like, immidiately called it a lie
Thanks to you too!
rintzscar@reddit
It is a lie and I proved it.
And you're continuing to lie. Everyone in this thread knows it's a lie. Everyone knows you're a liar.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
Its not a lie and all you did was answering your own question with an answer that made you feel like you came out on top
Im not lying to anyone, I simply give the correct answer and I simply dont care if others cant accept the truth.
Again, I know that you as a European were raised to believe that you are the one to decide what is true and what is not. But that doesnt work when you face someone that isnt a yes man, so cut the shit.
RoterRudi@reddit
The link they posted very clearly shows that it was a lie and that Turkey was offered Patriot systems.
You doubling down just proves their point.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
"You doubling down just proves their point"
And you trying to decide what is a lie and what is not proves mine
Dabclipers@reddit
It's not possible for this not to be a troll account. I refuse to accept someone that retarded could figure out how to use the internet.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
I will be honest with you, yeah Im trolling
I simply had enought of every article, link, and proof I give people during arguments being ignored simply because they are from "Turkish sources" so I dont even bother to read articles from "Western Sources"
RoterRudi@reddit
You didn't give any article, link or proof at all, lmao. You're clearly just coping at this point.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
Not In THIS argument.
Did you even read?
RoterRudi@reddit
Now that is even more childish than i thought.
You refuse to read "western" sources because some other dude in some other argument refused to accept turkish sources? Imagine being this fragile, lmao.
Now, why don't you finally give a source that disproves the claim that Turkey was offered Patriots and passed over those? I know why, but i wanna see you come up with an excuse.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
This part in a Wiki article about S 400 If you want you can search for that part yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system
RoterRudi@reddit
That's just the reason Erdogan gave. Of course he wouldn't be honest about it.
As you can see in the Reuters article, Turkey was offered the Patriot twice, but refused.
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
At this point shut the fuck up
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
AI Response
RoterRudi@reddit
Now i don't know what's funnier, you using an AI response that quotes some guy on reddit as evidence or a statement from Erdogan.
Can't you just give me an article? You know, like the reuters one?
RoterRudi@reddit
I'm not deciding anything, it's just a fact.
Did you even read the article? Can you prove why this is supposedly not a lie?
GoldenTheTurk@reddit
No, I didnt even bothered to read the article. Why should I bother? Its clearly made to justify hate towards Turkey
Possible-Scarcity-91@reddit
hahahahahaah he isn't lying or misinformed, it's just that the whole Western world is wrong. They only LOOK like they are lying. Hahahahahahahaha
Draupnirhater@reddit
Whole western world is infact lying quite a lot recant example would be irak war.
BankBackground2496@reddit
Not that you have called him a liar he will never accept facts, it would mean you were right and he was a liar.
You have attacked him on a personal and collective level and you did wrong.
BankBackground2496@reddit
I don't think he is aware what he says is not true.
So much noise and lies in the news right now and Turkey is a lot worse in that respect.
We have left the information era.
rintzscar@reddit
I think he's perfectly aware.
Gullible-Voter@reddit
A lot of misinformation in Erdogan's Turkey
Lumpy-Challenge3388@reddit
All except spain withdrew patriots from Turkey after we shot down Russian jet. Some allies we have. Time has shown we were in the right to do so, now they are bogged in a war with them over Ukraine. The first reaction of these retards whenever we get involved in foreign missions is to stand against us. Happened with Russians in Syria, happened with Libya. Each time we were in the right, each time they supported the Russian side, each time they had to do 180 when things turned out our way.
Monterenbas@reddit
Because you always go with supporting batshit crazy islamist.
NamSToboy@reddit
Westards. Always happens this way
mrgleman@reddit
Greece didn’t buy s300 , it got gifted by Cyprus once Turkey started to threat Cyprus with another invasion and massacre .
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Read the comments above
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
Are you really comparing the World situation in 2017 and 1998? Why not go back to the fall of Constantinople or the siege of Jerusalem? Are you that mass to volume challenged?
Typhon1327@reddit
A few months ago, they were also willing to sell F-35s to India, even though India has S-400s. Find another excuse lol.
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
Yes, yes, it's all about stopping you from dominating the worldwide baklava markets.
Own-Dependent8834@reddit
So why did they agree to sell to India then?
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
Because many NATO countries declined or reduced their orders and they need to have sales, and because the Orange Pedolf has no real security strategy.
Own-Dependent8834@reddit
Trump doesn’t get to decide that on his own. It has to pass through Congress. And needing sales is too convenient of an excuse.
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
Have you missed the US politics for the last year and a half? 🤣
BankBackground2496@reddit
Your ally the US was ready to sell Patriots, Turkey refused to buy unless it came with technology transfer like F-16 and F-35 was going to.
Ninevolts@reddit
The reason we got s400 because army shot down a Russian plane. Putin only accepted apology if he sold us some garbage. They never were used as Putin locked them out as Turkish army further escalated the tension in Syria.
greenest_alien@reddit
They literally offered to sell you the patriots.
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us-state-department-clears-35-billion-sale-of-patriot-missiles-to-turkey-idUSKBN1OI03D/
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/turkey-patriot-missiles-us
Lotofagos_@reddit
Yes. Under US federal law, Turkey cannot rejoin the F35 program as long as they possess or operate the Russian S400. What Greece/Israel want is irrelevant to this convo
This sub is filled with low-quality ragebait posts, spot them, ignore them and move on
Draupnirhater@reddit
Yeah greece is irrelevant but isreal oh boy i have news for you.
Lotofagos_@reddit
Israel's lobby in the US isn't the reason you were kicked out of the F35 program, your own government's procurement choices are. Turkey (a NATO member country) purchased a Russian missile system explicitly designed to track and shoot down NATO stealth jets. The Pentagon is never going to risk the F35's source data leaking to Moscow, regardless of what any third-party nation wants.
As a result of your government's choices, the US Congress passed a federal law in 2019 that explicitly requires the Secretaries of Defense and State to certify to Congress that the S400 system is physically gone from Turkey before a single jet can ship there. No lobby can bypass a written act of Congress.
Do some actual research before going full delulu
-Passenger-@reddit
Thats how I understood it too
Its Erdogans playbook to use foreign policy, blame "adversaries", for domestic politics
Gullible-Voter@reddit
Always this
BankBackground2496@reddit
Greece had acquired S-300 from Cyprus in 1998. Distant times.
Unhappy-Finance7535@reddit
Yes they were going to become the primary manufacturer of the F-35's landing gear under license and were expanding to manufacture further components.
The S-400 deal undermined that politically. The Syrian civil war further eroded it's completion as a deal since Turkiye and Russia were slowly finding frictions on the Turk-Syr border.
And then the use of Bayraktar drones against the Russian invasion of Ukraine pretty much changed Turkiye's approach to plugging the air defence gaps that the S-400 was supposed to solve.
Considering Turkiye has tried to kick-off a stealth fighter program for a decade, the F-35 was reconsidered as a technological stepping stone to their own aeronautical manufacturing base. So it's become a priority again.
Oversimplified to keep it short.
Mguener@reddit
Greece is in possession of Russian S 300 missiles, may buy the F35, but Turkey does not get any. This is not treated equally.
backdroper@reddit
I wonder why turkey afraid of s300 or patriots? Is Turkey intend to invade Greece? Or Greek islands
gounatos@reddit
Not the same thing, Greece didn't go out of their way to buy the S-300, they took them from Cyprus to defuse tensions, and would have happily let Cyprus have them if the US would have backed them.
I mean if Turkey has an issue with Greece having the S-300 and the F-35 I am sure we can arrange for their transfer to Cyprus.
NamSToboy@reddit
The only reason turkey wanted air defence was attacks from the southern border coming in and the US refused to sell patriots
Monterenbas@reddit
They didn’t refused the sell of the off the self Patriot, what they refused was delocalised production and transfer of technology.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Plus, no offense, whatever weapons Greece may have they cant pose any threat anyway so…
TechnologyMinute2714@reddit
Okay but U.S reasoning isn't just that Turkey simply bought it so we block them but that them operating such systems might give Intel to Russians about the stealth fighter if they owned it. But Greece actively operates the S300s still in like Crete. Same reasoning would apply there if they were fair.
ilGeno@reddit
The S-300 is a 50 years old technology. I doubt anything useful come sout of it.
Asleep_Company4166@reddit
This is not about usefulness, its about russian gadgets.
mrgleman@reddit
Greece didn’t buy s300 , Cyprus which isn’t in NATO did , Turkey once again threat with invasion to Cyprus and then Cyprus gifted them to Greece.
In short the only reason Greece got s300 is thanks to Turkish threats.
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
No, no, no, it was an conspiratcy against Turkiye /s
SuperSultan@reddit
Nuclear weapons are almost a century old and are still useful as a deterrent 😜
Gullible-Voter@reddit
They were upgraded and are now presumably close to 400 systems
Lotofagos_@reddit
What the fuck is that comparison bro, I can't with these comments
The S300 Greece took from Cyprus in the 90s is a legacy system designed by the fucking Soviets in the 1960s. Its radar limits are thoroughly understood by NATO and it poses ZERO threat to a 5th-gen stealth airframe
Turkey bought the S400 in 2017. It is Russia's premier modern air defense system, EXPLICITLY ENGINEERED to track and log data on 5th-gen stealth fighters like the F35
You're comparing a flip phone to an iphone 17 pro max and acting like that's a double standard
SuperSultan@reddit
The irony in your comment is that a flip phone and iPhone 17 pro max can still both make calls and text (albeit with some difficulty). In other words they fundamentally let you communicate but one has significantly more bells and whistles.
melts_so@reddit
Very fundamental bells and whistles though. 5g vs potentially not even 3g. Smart ARM CPUs etc.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Greece took S300 from occupied by Turkey Cyprus, because then Cyprus didn't allowed to possess heavy guns.Tyrkey was warned not to buy them but as usually Turkey did the opposite, so they were banned. Greece said that Turkey threatens all time with all BS we will come one night e.t.c
Sensitive-Basis-6885@reddit
Greece NEVER bought S300, cyprus did, cyprus was NOT and is NOT in Nato.
Turkey didnt want the S300 on cyprus so as a solution to keep Turkey happy Greece got them
but happily would return them to cyprus
Monterenbas@reddit
That they chose the S-400 over the F-35, would be more accurate.
ReasonableFish8445@reddit
Many people seems to have a wrong information in this matter, without talking politics what happened before is: -Turkey in the f-35 development program -Program is finishing and manufactured planes will be used by the partner countries -Necessary equipment for training pilots in the f-35 are delivered to respective countries in the program -US blocks the equipments coming to Turkey -Turkey realising those planes will never come deals with Russia for S-400 missiles
Sea_Pickle_927@reddit
Well I don't really care if the decision was taken in Jerusalem or anywhere else. It's a really positive step as a terrorist genocidal country shouldn't really have access to ANY weapons.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
Absolutely not. America giving them weapons to threaten a NATO member would be idiotic. Same for EU countries giving them weapons.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Turkey IS a NATO member
XenophonSoulis@reddit
One that threatens other NATO members. As I said, it would be idiotic to give weapons to anyone who threatens NATO members, regardless of their own status with NATO.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Which NATO memberS? Why plural? And we don’t threaten Greece. We just WON’T let you steal entire Aegean by fait accompli.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
Nah, this is a lie and you know it. Turkey has a casus belli against Greece exercising its INTERNATIONAL RIGHTS. At least try to make your lies believable.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Yeah, we won’t let you steal our entire east Mediterranean Sea board just because you have 500 people living in Megisti, nor will we let you lock us out of Aegean just because you have a few islands near our shores. we have thousands of kilometers of shores in the Aegean, deal with it. You are not an island country like Philippines or Comoros, you cannot claim entire Aegean as your EEZ.
mrgleman@reddit
“ few islands “ literally nearly 1,000.
And Greek coastline in aegian is double than Turkey.
Like it or not islands have EZZ
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Islands cant limit a mainlands eez. Unclos is only a guideline. It doesnt give you any rights. Those 1000 islands are rocks, most of them dont even qualify according to unclos as youe main source of claim. And we didnt sign unclos so you cant impose anything. You cant even go to court about it, cuz we are not a party to the agreement
mrgleman@reddit
You didn’t sign UNCLOS but you apply it in Black Sea lmao , you extended your EZZ there to 12nm.
Also you didn’t sign the agreement with disarming Dodecanese and yet you want them to be disarmed , hypocrite much right ?
Also islands don’t mind your EZZ , aegian is 90% Greek , coast of Anatolia claims can’t reach to central aegian or coast of Athens and Crete as you like to claim
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No we dont apply unclos. We passed a law in the 80’s to declare the more than 6+ miles, 12 is a result of that, and to resolve disputes we have bilateral agreements with countries coasting the black sea.
We dont reference unclos anywhere, you cant even look it up easily
backdroper@reddit
And why passed a law to 12 and not to 10 Or 15 miles
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
The law doesnt specify 12 miles. It specifies 6+.
I dont really get why you think 12 automatically means unclos either. Multiples of 3 is customary in maritime. And everyone goes with 12 too so…
backdroper@reddit
You passed a law in turkey? And if one day Bulgarian parliament pass a law that their capital is Constantinople because is close to them
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Yeah, same way we declare what our land borders are. Your country probably have such laws for such declarations
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Nearly 1000 where?? Those close to our coast are much fewer and you try to give EEZ to tiny rocks and islets?! You cannot block our EEZ or leg room. That’s unfair and you bloody know it!
mrgleman@reddit
Is your coast on Crete ? Because you claim that as well.
And Greek claims don’t push towards your coast ( except kastelorizo which is the only part that Turkey can dispute against Greece )
The Greek claims mostly close the gap between Greek islands neighbouring islands.
Legally anything else than kastelorizo stands and it’s fair.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
No we don’t. That’s just bullshit online ragebait. We don’t claim anything near Crete, nor we have an ounce of territorial claim on Greek islands. It’s about EEZ regarding eastern shores of the Aegean and your preposterous and carricaturish claim near our Mediterranean coast because you have tiny little Megisti (literally a village) right in our nose. Megisti will not get even a centimeter square of EEZ, better get used to the idea. Do you think we are dumb enough to let you lock us out of Aegean and Mediterranean? We want equity and justice; we are not after your islands or try to push you out. We know Aegean is as much Greek as it is Turkish.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
Except we literally can according to international law. You just don't like what the international law says. There are many things in life that we don't like. Get over it.
annuminasguard@reddit
According to that so called international law which turkey is not a signatory country, if the borders clashes countries are requested make their own agreements. But greece wants turkey to accept because they benefits it.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
The law is enforceable whether you are a signatory or not according to International Court decisions (and Turkey is a member of that).
If the distance between two countries' coasts is smaller than 24nm, then the territorial water line is the one in the middle of the two countries. Maybe read the international legislation before commenting on it.
annuminasguard@reddit
Maybe you should read and see the examples in the world like france and englad did.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
Maybe you should read up on international law before citing it as an excuse. I don't care what France or England did, I care about what the law says.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Except you literally can’t, you know why, because we won’t let you. Get over it and learn to negotiate and share. Claiming entire East Mediterranean Sea board because of Megisti??? You think we are dumb enough to let you?
XenophonSoulis@reddit
So you are threatening a NATO member. Thanks for proving my point.
Rich_Fix_3053@reddit
This is more than just a dispute between Greece and Turkey. It is part of a broader Western strategy to contain Russia in the Black Sea. The West does not control the Bosporus Strait, but it does have another proxy under its influence: Greece. By using Greece to pressure Turkey along its Mediterranean coastline, it seeks to neutralize the strategic importance of the Bosporus. Turkey’s policy of balancing relations between different powers is something that makes the West uncomfortable. At the same time, however, the West itself often acts in a contradictory and double-standard manner toward Turkey.
Using Greece to provoke the Turks while attempting to contain Russia in the Black Sea feels familiar to me. It reminds me of the Turkish War of Independence, when Greece, driven by the dream of the Megali Idea, launched its campaign against the Turks and ultimately suffered a decisive defeat. In my view, the same dynamic is now unfolding in the Mediterranean. Those who dream of confining Turkey in the Mediterranean may instead find themselves confined there.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
Maybe read some international laws and come back to tell us. Nobody is pressuring Turkey for anything other than respecting international law. Turkey, however, is set on violating every single article it can find.
That's called being an unreliable ally and it has hurt every single country that has tried it in history. When such "allies" need help, neither power comes to their aid, despite how close they think they are.
Also threatening a NATO member by the way. You are constantly making your position worse, like that other propaganda stooge.
Rich_Fix_3053@reddit
Building diplomatic relations with different powers does not make you unreliable. On the contrary, it shows that you are not a puppet, that you are independent, and that you are willing to fight to remain independent.
If by “trust” you mean being controlled by someone else, then you are completely mistaken. Trust is built through communication and agreements. Do Western states and Greece consider the feelings of Turkey and the Turkish people? If not, why should Turks be expected to do so? Nothing can be achieved through such hypocrisy.
Let me give you an example. I do not go to casinos and I do not gamble. Do you know why? Because all the rules are written against me, and losing is almost certain. I do not leave my future to chance.
The same applies to international law. International law was not designed with countries like Turkey in mind. It does not take Turkey’s interests, concerns, or needs into account; in many ways, it has excluded them altogether.
That is why appealing to international law is not convincing to me. It is your game, your rules, and your stories written to ensure my defeat.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
If you ally with one country and its arch-enemy at the same time, you are unreliable, whether said country is a superpower or not.
Nobody ever claimed that this should be the case. This whole comment reads like a big surge of persecution fetish.
Your casino analogy is completely misplaced. You are mixing up a case of "rules don't apply to me because I avoid situations where they would apply" and "rules don't apply to me because I unilaterally decided that I don't like them". The fact that you unironically said this makes me wonder if there is a point to continue this conversation at all.
Let me fix your casino analogy though. You said that you don't play in casinos because the rules there are stacked against you. You also said the the international laws about coastlines are stacked against you. Yet you insist playing in the sea. If you don't want coastline laws to apply to you, the only solution is to avoid having a coastline altogether.
Laws apply whether you like them or not and whether they were "designed with you in mind" or not. Laws say that you should not murder people for example. Say you murder someone and then go to court claiming that you are above the law, using the argument "murder laws were not designed with people like me in mind". Do you think any judge will ever accept that excuse? No, you're going to prison all the same, but you are also becoming an example of how not to act in court. Similarly, international law is there whether you like it or not and you have to obey it whether you like it or not.
The persecution fetish I was talking about. Nobody thinks about Turkey as much as you think they do. I assure you, Turkey wasn't even an afterthought when the international laws about coastlines were voted.
Rich_Fix_3053@reddit
Don’t drag this discussion out. A solution has already been proposed, and Turkey has stated it clearly: islands and the mainland should not be treated under the same maritime status. The territorial waters of islands should not be the same as those of the mainland. This is not an ocean; it is a sea.
Expanding the territorial waters of the islands would effectively mean restricting Turkey in the Mediterranean and diminishing the strategic importance of the Turkish Straits. Neutralizing the Straits and constraining Turkey in the Mediterranean would also mean severely limiting Russia’s ability to gain access to the Mediterranean.
At the same time, it would create a situation in which Turkey and Russia would be unable to reach agreements freely, while opening the door to a framework in which Russia and Greece could become the primary actors for certain agreements in the Mediterranean.
No one is blind to these realities.
As for the issue of killing, have you ever heard of self-defense? In many legal systems, actions taken in legitimate self-defense may not be punished because they are considered defensive rather than criminal.
International law will evolve as well. Laws are not permanent they develop and change over time. Only dogmatists oppose dialogue, negotiation, and the search for solutions.
No one is trying to take your tiny islands. However, Turkey will not be boxed in within the Mediterranean especially in the Aegean Sea and it will not be forced to lose its freedom of movement or strategic flexibility.
Buy as many sophisticated and impressive weapons as you want, and try to bring as many allies to your side as you can. In the end, it will fail. You tried similar strategies in Anatolia through the Megali Idea and failed. You tried in Cyprus and failed. If you now attempt the same approach in the Aegean, you may find that it is your own position in the Aegean that becomes increasingly constrained.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
No solution has been proposed, nor has any been accepted. The problem is Turkey's unwillingness to respect international law. Any solution would involve Turkey respecting international law, voluntarily or otherwise.
I will be ignoring your scaremongering for dummies.
I'm not talking about killing, I'm talking about murder. Learn to read.
I thought you said international law was irrelevant to you. Now you want it to protect your self-proclaimed "rights"?
The waters are an integral part of the islands whether you like it or not.
The threats we were talking about. By the way, the last time we fought at sea was in the Balkan Wars, and that's how we ended up with all the islands in the first place. Speaking of sophisticated and impressive weapons, how did it serve you the last time?
rhancav@reddit
Well said captain.
skunkspef@reddit
Omg never thought about this way. Always thought it was a pissing contest between us and Greece.
Rich_Fix_3053@reddit
Yes, that’s true. Since the day it was founded, Greece has never really been an independent state; it has functioned as a simple proxy. It moves between the interests of the United States and Europe, acting not for its own national interests but for those of the West. If you look at the issue in depth, you can see that the main cause of the conflict is actually the broader confrontation between Russia and the West.
The only way we can overcome this is by maintaining a balanced approach and playing both sides diplomatically. Otherwise, we too could end up becoming a simple proxy like Greece.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
We are NOT threatening, we are just telling you what you CAN’T do. Aegean is not only your sea, look at the map abd wake up. You will learn to share and negotiate, because that’s what commonsense dictates.
mrgleman@reddit
Yes aegian isn’t all ours , it’s 90%+ ours you have your coast and that’s all
XenophonSoulis@reddit
This is the definition of a threat.
LarsMatijn@reddit
It isn't, unless you find a wall a threat for not moving out of the way before you walk into it.
XenophonSoulis@reddit
The definition you provided matches your words perfectly. Telling someone that you won't let them exercise their right is very much a threat.
I'll give you one more opportunity to prove your words, even though you've made yourself clear enough:
When you say "you won't let us", how exactly do you propose that this will happen? Say we wake up tomorrow and enforce our territorial waters and EEZ according to international legislation. What happens in this case?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
You can only apply an INTERNATIONAL LAW with countries who also signed and ratified it. It’s a very basic principle. Educate yourself before having a tantrum about it
XenophonSoulis@reddit
The law is enforceable whether you are a signatory or not according to International Court decisions (and Turkey is a member of that).
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
No
Own-Dependent8834@reddit
Why? So it can become even more of a dictatorship like Iran? No one gains from that, don’t be ridiculous.
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
How does not giving Turkey weapons help it become a dictatorship? Do you think appeasment works?
What ought to be done is to put pressure on Erdoğan so that he implements EU decisions and is forced to accept a possible loss in elections. Turkey has been treated as a normal problem with no problems with authoritarianism for the last two decades. Where did it get us?
NamSToboy@reddit
(I'm Turkish myself) You think we shouldn't have any capable air defence because our government is suppressive? Security and liberal values do align but not on this case. If it were nuclear weapons we were talking about here then I could agree
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
I did not say that "we should not have air defense systems" I said that Turkish state belonging to Erdoğan should not have it.
If you think that Turkish state that is led by Erdoğan who actively arrests his opposition to create a one party state is the representative of Turkish people, that is your thing. However, in this current state Turkish state is the personal fiefdom of Erdoğan.
NamSToboy@reddit
I do not have to think of Erdoğan as my representative to want to have missiles that will intercept airborne targets that will possibly kill innocent civilians, they are defensive weapons anyway it's not like the police will radar lock you and shoot you down on a protest.
If you think that the west will try and "save" us from this regime through military intervention and that Erdoğan will use these air defence systems to keep himself in power... Well I don't know what to tell you
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
F35s are offensive planes, no? Moreover, you are thinking from a very limited place regarding political legitimacy. For Erdoğan to benefit from F35s, he does not need to actively shoot out protestors in street with the said weapons.
The fact that he can get new weapons that would benefit him in an international scale also helps him to retain his power at home. For example, the capacity of BAYKAR to produce UAV's is often utilized by Erdoğan to prove that they are ruling Turkey well. All strongment utilize weapons and external politics to make up for their internal failures.
Where have I implied that Turkey should be invaded by liberal democracies? You are arguing against arguments that I did not make or even imply.
NamSToboy@reddit
The reason why Erdoğan gains political power from BAYKAR and other military systems is that they're home made and not bought, so f-35s wouldn't have the same effect. Funnily enough the supposed substitute for it, Kaan, provided more political power for the government.
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
You are missing the point. The more weapons Erdoğan has, the more he can exert his influence abroad which means more legitimacy in Turkey.
NamSToboy@reddit
although their effect on the population is positive for the government it is not the deciding factor. It is undeniably a very weak opposition with weak candidates such as Kılıçdaroğlu and promises to release Selahattin Demirtaş which makes him unpopular. The government relies far more on politicising religion than it does on flexing muscles abroad to gain popularity. It is very unlikely that he would be less popular if Turkey was not involved in any external operations at all. I would even say that AKP voters are mostly oblivious to such activities because they are fed propaganda by government back media promising unrealistic projects that never materialize (see the Altay tank for example)
New-Ranger-8960@reddit
That’s what Europeans believed about Russia before they invaded Ukraine, and look where it got us.
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
I second this.
New-Ranger-8960@reddit
I’m not anti-Turkish btw, I’m anti-Erdogan. I hope you guys can gain a better future very soon.
LiberalDegerler724@reddit
Thank you fellow Aegean brother.
New-Ranger-8960@reddit
🇬🇷❤️🇹🇷
kadaka80@reddit
As long as they don't have expansionist politics we wouldn't mind but unfortunately Turkey is overrun by ultra Nationalists and we will oppose them
berikiyan@reddit
It's Greece that wants to expand its maritime borders. Keep yourself in your 6nm territorial waters and it'll all be fine.
kadaka80@reddit
The Lybian EEZ agreement is not expansionist when it ignores the Island of Crete? The 12nm is derived from maritime law and it applies to Turkey too
berikiyan@reddit
First, Greece started first the claim-the-maximum-EEZ game in early 2010s. Before that the issue was mainly territorial waters in the Aegean. Yet claiming half of the Eastern Mediterranean with only Kastellorizo is simply ridiculous.
You can check what EEZ AlHucemas islands of Spain near Moroccan mainland (or St Pierre et Miquelon of France near Canadian mainland) get: a tiny EEZ island inside the mainland's EEZ. That's what your islands closer to the Turkish shores (and above all, Kastellorizo) will get.
Greek and Cypriot EEZs won't touch each other so you also need Turkey's permit for that economically-infeasible Great Interconnector thing.
backdroper@reddit
The laws and treaties in turkey is like how erdogan bullies wake. They have in Black Sea 12 miles, they ignore the second largest island in Mediterranean
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Brah, if you wanna apply unclos, you can only do it with, I don’t know, Italy maybe. A country is not bound by any agreement that didnt sign and ratify. It’s a very basic principle of international law but you wanna impose it on us and have rest of Europe as your muscles. It’s just provocative and expansionist. Yet you cry sheep as we are the ones threatening you at every turn.
bugog@reddit
It does not apply to Turkey. Turkey is not bound to apply an agreement signed by other countries.
Tiny_Control_1522@reddit
Yeah, but what Greece is doing is so hypocritical. I mean, they literally own land right under Turkey's nose—it's close enough that you can actually see the people over there. And now, by trying to extend their territorial waters, they're basically trying to neutralize the straits
Yavannia@reddit
Meanwhile the Turkish non expansionist claims.... https://www.ekathimerini.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/erdogannn-thumb-large-1.jpg
berikiyan@reddit
That shown is the continental shelf, not territorial waters.
Vestout@reddit
Where the fuck are the "ultra nationalists"? Even the most moderate Turkish patriots are jailed by Erd*gan.
RefrigeratorCool6478@reddit
Turkey should be in EU, some might say before Ukraine
sleepand@reddit
Yes, with an apology and reparations.
takeormake@reddit
Eh it doesn’t matter Türkiye is now on the list of world’s largest and best selling drone manufacturers. And any weapons that aren’t/ haven’t been sold to them will just be retro engineered and possibly made better. And probably a lower cost. Just stating they are effectively going through generations of progress by having access to weapons systems from the US&Russia&china. And also selling an insane amount of firearms to the US(civilian market) and other countries from the now large and robust weapons industry.
rintzscar@reddit
If Turkey was more friendly to other nations, it wouldn't have any problems acquiring F-35s. The conclusion is to be friendly, not an aggressive, imperialist neighbour.
Maybudy@reddit
its not about if youre friendly towards other nations its only about if you are good with israel (which turkey is not)
greenest_alien@reddit
Saudi Arabia doesn't even recognise the existence of Israel and is getting 48 F-35
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
Saudi may not recognise Israel for internal political reasons but the Saudi leadership is in bed with the Israelis.
https://www.fairobserver.com/world-news/arab-news/popular-support-of-the-palestinians-is-a-problem-for-mbs/
“ Behind closed doors, MBS has long since placed all his chips on Israel and believes — most likely correctly — that his own future and that of Israel are intimately intertwined.”
meyers83199@reddit
Turkey's leadership is too btw. Israel gets around 46% of it's crude oil from Azerbaijan, and it is then shipped from Turkey to Israel.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/israels-imports-azerbaijani-oil-via-turkey-jump-despite-ankaras-trade-ban-2026-01-21/
All these people in the comments are clueless af. This is what they mean by "goycattle", I guess
RestaurantFamous2399@reddit
They have a lot of money invested in the US.
You dont upset your donors!
kulamsharloot@reddit
You'll have to decide.
It's either the USA making their own decisions for whatever reason or is it Israel deciding for them.
Stick to one narrative please it's embarrassing at this point.
Maybudy@reddit
yes because saudi arabia gets on its knees and pulls trumps pants down whenever his name is mentioned
ilGeno@reddit
Maybe they shouldn't have bought their anti-air system from Russia
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Maybe we should have been sold patriots but our allies refused to sell
ilGeno@reddit
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us-state-department-clears-35-billion-sale-of-patriot-missiles-to-turkey-idUSKBN1OI03D/
It was Turkey's policy to be ambivalent. Unsurprisingly the USA didn't like it.
yesilknc@reddit
So that’s why countries like USA, Russia, UK, Italy, France, Spain etc has big armies? They are unfriendly?
rintzscar@reddit
Russia does not have F-35s.
All the rest are friendly to their neighbours.
Your comment proves my point, mate.
yesilknc@reddit
They are not neighbor to Russia nor Middle East yet they still have a big army. I think you have no idea what you talking about.
rintzscar@reddit
What? You think only countries that neighbour Russia or the Middle East can have big armies? Why?
Your comment is nonsensical.
Instead of continuing to embarrass yourself, go back up, re-read the thread, try following it with your brain.
yesilknc@reddit
Do you have a brain mate
No_Idea_479@reddit
They build them themselves.
Gethdo@reddit
US threathens his neighbors every week, Cuma, Venezuela , Mexico, I think you are out of loop
No_Idea_479@reddit
Only under the current administration, which I criticize. In contrast, it's Turkish policy since 1950 at least to threaten it's neighbors.
Nice-Appearance-9720@reddit
and how Turkey threatened Bulgaria between from the 50's to nowadays?
No_Tell5399@reddit
The US doesn't threaten it's neighbors, they [create death squads](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras#:~:text=The%20Contras%20(from%20Spanish%3A%20contrarrevolucionarios,the%20Nicaraguan%20Revolution%20in%201979.) to destabilize and exploit them.
annuminasguard@reddit
Bro cmon. Vietnam war, afganistan war, ıraq invasion?
No_Idea_479@reddit
annuminasguard@reddit
Then panama? Mexico?
rintzscar@reddit
That's an outlier. Historically, they've been friendly to their neighbiours.
Regardless, the US produces F-35s themselves, so it's a moot point. Why would they need to buy F-35s when they produce it? The premise does not make sense.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Brah, US is directly responsible for any sort of coup that happened in latin America. They havent bern “friendly”. They just dominated
No_Tell5399@reddit
That's absurdly untrue, considering US is single handedly responsible for creating the term "banana republic". Also, Russia (their bestie 🥰) is right across the Bering Strait.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Delusional
yesilknc@reddit
We also build our own hence considering even France used to use American engines for Rafales until a decade ago we are doing more than fine, also its not called being unfriendly thinking wellbeing of our own nation, specially in a geography we live in.
DimitrisDaskalakis@reddit
Well, if Turkey, Greece, Israel, etc. were more friendly to their neighbors, they wouldn't need or care to buy fighter jets at all...
merount1@reddit
That has nothing to do with it, they were originally blocked for buying Russian S-400
rintzscar@reddit
Which is an aggressive measure towards their neighbours...
merount1@reddit
No it's not
ImamTrump@reddit
The f35 project is just a mega scam. Even if you get it. It’ll be a watered down version.
In this case self development is a better choice.
Light0fDesire@reddit
exactly, the f-35 they sell is not the same one as u.s. airforces operated ones.
good thing is, Europe also improves itself to produce high-end military equipment, so usa monopoly will be over soon.
Ninevolts@reddit
Note that Erdogan does not want them. Army does. As far as he is concerned, these fighters might end up being used against him. He still fears a potential coup. A weak Turkish army is the best one for Erdogan.
He wants to sell his son in laws stuff anyway.
NamSToboy@reddit
I doubt he fears a coup, the military is neutralized
Ninevolts@reddit
It is weakened for sure but it is very watchful right now. Once they think the consequences no longer matter, they'll definitely take action. Erdogan lacks allies to fight back and a real coup would be much swifter and quicker.
If he didn't fear a coup, he wouldn't have been accompanied by heavily armed special forces anywhere. Bigger escort than any world leader.
Narrow_Leg_2187@reddit
marshal_1923@reddit
Military has institutionally decayed, but it's not weak or deeply compliant with the government. Officers are just under immense pressure. No matter what they do being an officer is always low reward, high risk and high discipline field and most of the time most of the candidates will be sincere about defending the republic. Main problem is infiltration that prevents officers to organize. If they have a "dangerous thought" they can't trust no one about it. This is the main reason they can't organize or coup. An officer or a person alone doesn't mean anything and can't do anything.
QuarianGuy@reddit
There is no Turkish Military, it's just stats on a piece of paper.
sajkoterrapefft@reddit
I'm sure the Greeks were the deciding voice.
/s
Flashy_Race_7812@reddit
Turkey requested the Patriot missile system under terms similar to those granted to Israel, including technology transfer, local production opportunities, and more favorable financing arrangements. However, the United States was not willing to offer Turkey the same conditions.
Given that Turkey is a NATO ally, hosts U.S. military bases, and faces security challenges in the same region, it is understandable that Ankara looked for alternative suppliers when its requirements could not be met by Washington. If a country cannot obtain the defense capabilities it needs on acceptable terms from one supplier, it will naturally explore other options.
Monterenbas@reddit
But afaik Turkey didn’t get any delocalised production or transfer of technology from the Russians either?
If not, best case scenario is they got an similar product on similar term, while losing access to the F-35.
Yavannia@reddit
That's because Turkey demanded access to the source code of the software the patriots use that USA has not provided to anyone. They did want to sell Turkey the finished product as it was.
Razvalio@reddit
The source for this is Greek
US made it very clear what needs to be done in order to get F-35
Essential_ingredient@reddit
TR is kicked out due to the S-400. Taco and his pal, a real estate developer, who is currently serving as uS ambassador to Ankara are trying to bypass congress. It might work for TR, they spend a lot of money on bribes. The area is getting ready for a war anyway. TR, pakistan, spain, ukraine against GR, FR, Israel and CY. That’s the status of affairs, it’s going to be brutal
Odd-Sound-0@reddit
Did you write Spain??? There is no universe that Spain flights against the Greeks and/or the French. We might have businesses with the Turks and we might hate Israel, but man, what are you on??
Outside_Resist_8319@reddit
You are confused with Greece my friend. Remember Bob Menendez who was arrested for accepting bribes from Egypt and Qatar. He was avid defender of Greek politics as well. I wonder why..
MysticSeawolf@reddit
Amount of whitewashing of US and Israel is insane in this tread just because of Turkey hateboner, especially by greeks...
Possible-Scarcity-91@reddit
No. Absolutely not.
Kebab_Enjoyer3164@reddit
Didnt greece also bought s-400 and atill got their f35?
Outside_Resist_8319@reddit
They have S-300 which was modernised short time ago by Russians themselves and rised to the level of S-400. The funny thing it stationed next to US base. So, what about the info security of F-35s guys?
tkchrist@reddit
No, apart from Russia only 5 countries have S-400. Algeria, Belarus, China, India and Turkey. They are really good systems tbh.
blumonste@reddit
No one in this subreddit is in a decision making position so waste of time.
Karshall117@reddit
we paid for these jets dammit
theschiffer@reddit
Nope.
Meowser02@reddit
Completely supportive of this as an American, they’re a vital NATO ally of ours
NidzoMadjija@reddit
Turkey shouldn't even be allowed to have a military tbh
Pity that the post ottoman country didn't get the Germany/Japan treatment, with either Greek or international control over the straits
BankBackground2496@reddit
Turkey picked S-400 over F-35. Live with it now.
denayz@reddit
I wonder why? Could it be that they were forced to buy the S-400 because USA refused to sell Patriots to Turkey? You’ll understand why Turkey made such a decision when drones and rockets start falling on your borders.
Also, some other countries have S300-400 systems, but they are getting f-35 😃 only Turkey is blocked.
BankBackground2496@reddit
You are talking about Greece having S-300. Yet Greece did not buy those from Russia (they were give to it by Cyprus after Turkey applied pressure) and has had them before the first F-35 prototype flew.
Yavannia@reddit
Turkey threatened was against Cyprus if they didn't get rid of them and they sold them to us fast as an emergency and now they blame us for having them it's absurd...
BankBackground2496@reddit
The story changes as needed.
I'm old enough to have followed those events from TV radio and newspapers. The kids nowadays lack the tools to find out what happened a generation ago.
Whatever story Erdoğan says the media repeats it. Besides that there is a heap load of steaming shit you have to sift through to find relevant facts.
Information is not free anymore, you have to spend a lot of your time.
Populist leaders are to blame.
No-Heart3432@reddit
If US won't sell us Patriot we should have make out air defense system. Not buy something that we don't use and lose so much for nothing.
yesilknc@reddit
We do actually, I believe the S400 was needed to understand how anti ballistic dedende systems work hence Siper and Hisar O were produced after acquiring S400.
No-Heart3432@reddit
I know. And it took 10 years. But we lost the opportunity to have a jet which will take at least 10 years more which is stupid.
greenest_alien@reddit
Turkey chose S-400 over patriot.
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us-state-department-clears-35-billion-sale-of-patriot-missiles-to-turkey-idUSKBN1OI03D/
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/politics/turkey-patriot-missiles-us
BankBackground2496@reddit
Later Turkey asked for the option of producing Patriot missiles domestically like they do with F-16. US said no so Erdoğan went to his pal Putin to blackmail US. I understand why Turkey wanted the technology transfer but it did not get that with S-400.
So US came back with no F-35 for you.
BankBackground2496@reddit
US did not refuse to sell Patriot, it has refused the technology transfer Turkey asked for. Needles to say S-400 did not come with the technology transfer.
There is a word for that in Turkish, cambaz.
John_Remy@reddit
While I appreciate the confidence, here's what actually happened: Turkey shot down a Russian jet defending NATO operations and got abandoned by every ally it was defending. Meanwhile the US was actively arming PKK-affiliated groups like the YPG right on Turkey's border, using the Syrian conflict as a proxy war against Assad and ISIS while simultaneously destabilizing a NATO ally's southern border. Maybe understand what happened between those moments and the S-400 purchase before reducing it to a simple choice.
BankBackground2496@reddit
I recall a shipment of arms sent to Syria was caught by Turkish Jandarma then newspapers were told to keep quiet.
Yes, Turkey and US backed rival factions in Syria. https://eurasianet.org/turkey-isis-recruiting-in-turkish-cities
John_Remy@reddit
The MİT trucks you're referencing were going to the FSA and Syrian Turkmen fighting Assad, not ISIS. What you conveniently skip is that the CIA was running Timber Sycamore at the exact same time, arming those same rebel groups. Turkey and the US weren't backing rival factions initially. The US just later abandoned the FSA and pivoted to arming the YPG.
As for your Eurasianet link, ISIS recruiting people in Turkish cities doesn't equal state sponsorship. ISIS recruited from London, Paris and Brussels too. Does that mean they were backing ISIS too? Turkey has a 900km porous border with Syria, infiltration happened. You're also ignoring that ISIS carried out devastating attacks inside Turkey, Atatürk Airport, Ankara, Suruç, and that Turkey was the only NATO member to put boots on the ground against ISIS in Operation Euphrates Shield.
So, we started with F-35s and NATO abandonment. You haven't addressed either. Try again with a pinch of reality.
BankBackground2496@reddit
Are you seriously saying you needed Russian S-400 to shoot Russian planes?
John_Remy@reddit
Please do read it again, slowly this time.
yesilknc@reddit
Turkey picked screw USA card earlier than Europe and doing more than fine on military industry now. You are the one to think how to live with it now considering USA leaving Europe and no Westerner would ever fight for Romania during a possible Russian aggression.
BankBackground2496@reddit
If you think NATO is dead pull out of it, makes life simpler.
Not that I don't agree with screw USA (post Trump) but if that is what you decide stick with it.
DeathByAttempt@reddit
Those Kurds are getting pretty good, who knows, maybe they'll start using stones too. Better get the jets, just to be safe.
Lumpy-Challenge3388@reddit
Yes, yes all kurds. We genocide kurds thats why we have 13 million of them in Türkiye. That's why we have a ton of Kurdish mps and ministers. We are totally gonna use the f35s on them and them only.
Puzzled_Muzzled@reddit
Hmmm. Since you love them so much, you wouldn't mind if they had their own country. Would you?
vast144@reddit
Hmmm but majority of kurds in turkey aren't separatists. Should we force them out just to conform western imperialist 'values'?
Real dilemma here
Puzzled_Muzzled@reddit
Nah. Just respect their decision if they want to separate
rhancav@reddit
Okay fu****tard. Let’s ask Turkish Cypriots if they want to join Turkiye. Will you respect their decision as well? Suddenly everyone is a fucking Leninist when it comes to messing up with their rivals ffs. Rotten brains.
No-Heart3432@reddit
Sure why not. We should let them as long as you let us to take half of the Greece.
Puzzled_Muzzled@reddit
You already have half. Konstantinoupol, Pontus, Asia minor, half Cyprus. And you got the good ones, if you ask me. You left us with the goat-lovers and the mouth-breathers
No-Heart3432@reddit
Why not both. We should take the same amount of land from you that you've given to Kurdish people. If giving land is so easy like you've said then it shouldn't be a problem.
Winter_Way_8513@reddit
Hmm Crete should be Independent by agreement think about that
More_Ad_5142@reddit
What a dumb take
John_Remy@reddit
By that logic, you could fracture the world into thousands of new nations. Are you okay with going back to city-states? Should the US do it? Spain? Russia? China? France? The UK? Or are race and ethnonationalism the only metrics that justify a country's existence?
Every modern state deals with separatists, and in many of those cases, those entities operate through terrorism. Funny how that only seems to matter when it fits the argument you already wanted to make.
In short you are trying to frame complex modern statehood purely through the lens of ethnonationalism, applying a standard to Turkey that you would never apply to the rest of the world.
Flashy_Race_7812@reddit
Cyprus Turks seem to bother you though, right.
Lumpy-Challenge3388@reddit
Sure , I would vote for them to have their own country on the same day you return Macedonia to Bulgaria, release the muslim east thrace to merge with Turkey and return Arnavite majority lands to Albania.(See how it works?)
Puzzled_Muzzled@reddit
So, konstantinoupol, Pontus, Cyprus and minor Asia will be freed with that logic? I'm just asking a simple question to people that apparently love the Kurds. A massive ethnicity inside different countries
TechnicianTimely2879@reddit
ask those kurds who move to istanbul/izmir/antalya rather than northern iraq if they would like their own country.
DeathByAttempt@reddit
Don't forget those Armenians, they might want school buses. Very scary.
Winter_Way_8513@reddit
Yeah man I ate 3 kurd today
Thanos_354@reddit
The US doesn't share its tech with Russian allies. All this geopolitical jargon just doesn't matter
QueasyMemer@reddit
No, and Recep wouldn't want that anyway. This kind of news is pushed around because both Greece and especially Israel are used as vehicles of fearmongering among the Turkish public, Turks should know griks and the yahudiler are a real threat and they can act any time!1!11!1
latespresso@reddit
The source was weak, but I read today that one of the conditions for us to be given the F-35 is signing the Abraham Accords, even though we recognize Israel already.
tabulasomnia@reddit
no. stop working with strongmen.
we can circle back to this when erdo is gone.
NamSToboy@reddit
This is pushing Turkey eastward tho
tabulasomnia@reddit
how
ilikedogsandfrogs@reddit
Because if one is to twist Turkey’s arms, they might just work more with other parties.
tabulasomnia@reddit
none of the non-western powers (possibly except for azerbaijan, lol) is interested in working with turkey in any way other than total domination, and that will never be acceptable. erdo tried working with china and russia many times, but no dice.
this is a non-concern.
Rich_Fix_3053@reddit
Turkey hosts American nuclear weapons. Providing F-35s to Turkey is not particularly difficult for the United States, but Washington has to maintain a balance of power; otherwise, the biggest fish would simply swallow the others. The level of support that Israel receives from the United States in the defense sector is extraordinary, and it is well known how Greece has had its position protected by both Europe and the United States.
Turkey should not become so powerful that it can dominate these two players, but at the same time it should not become so weak that it is dominated by them. This is the strategy that the United States follows. Turkey should pursue a more independent path and continue investing in its own defense industry. If it fails to do so, it will remain a player in a game designed by the United States, much like Greece and Israel.
RecommendationOnly41@reddit
Why not build your own plane?
ElLoboTurco@reddit
yes because we already (partly) paid for it
Adept_Bison2070@reddit
Balkans should stop bying guns from muricans and be independent for a change. They keep as poor bu fighting each other...the westerners are and always were the real enemies
polenta2025@reddit
Solution: Turkey gives S400 to Ukraine. Then Turkey is included back in F35 program. No?
samvarr@reddit
Nah that would totally destroy relations with Russia for no reason
Next_League6403@reddit
No.
So we can keep making our own stuff and sell them internationally.
Snoo_72948@reddit
Lmao, imagine worshipping at the altar of Trump and still not getting your f35s.
MinimumArt8781@reddit
I think it's crazy. I don't see the fus with such a plane, teh Iranians managed to damage one with tech form probably the 90s..... As we can all see from Ukraine , you can face a tougher opponent with cheap drones and determination
-Passenger-@reddit
Europe should heavily invest into the Tempest
MinimumArt8781@reddit
I also believe that European countries should be able to develop their own weapons, we're giving money to the Americans we can't trust them at all. Instead of all of us buying that crap we should mind our own
-Passenger-@reddit
Absolutely agree with you here. The most promising European Gen6 stealth fighter seems to be the Tempest. European Nations should focus on that.
zappalot000@reddit
I think turkey would be foolish to pursue American technology it might have to use against America's main ally.
Kenepe88@reddit
No.
Few-Audience9921@reddit
Can we have sources for your Israeli propaganda outlet, or is the image AI generated to look serious?
Salt_Ad_4515@reddit
Can i have a link to that reddit post? First time seeing this topic in this sort of tone
vast144@reddit
They would be useless against Israel anyway. We should focus on developing next generation solutions instead of having this literal representation of 'false sense of security'.
Winter_Way_8513@reddit
Nah we will be fine and forced to find solutions in our way thats how it works. I think we will see disolve of United States because of economic colapse. After that how they maintain their fleet Idk.
TheyStayTheSameAG@reddit
Out of those 3, the nato members are not the problem
Delicious_March_838@reddit
For sure. They are NATO.