Question about elbow position
Posted by Successful_Bar9187@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 45 comments
I understand why tactical use the tucked in elbow offers better mobility and a smaller body profile, and that this is relatively recent way of doing it.
But whenever I would go to the range, my elbow feels more natural at an angle. The pocket feels nice for the stock. I don’t shoot for long so elbow fatigue isn’t a problem.
When I go to the range, is it better to stick to a tucked elbow stance or an angled elbow stance in terms of “going with the flow” with this modernized firing posture?
Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
Regardless of what the Tactical gurus tell you, it really doesn't matter that much. Honestly doesn't.
I spent my career as a Firearms instructor teaching people how to shoot and for static shooting, your elbow position doesn't really matter that much regardless of if it's pointed out or tucked in.
PoorBoyDaniel@reddit
I mean yeah, there are lots of different techniques that work for top level shooters, but there are some techniques that are just flat out wrong for certain types of shooting, and some techniques that are just flat out wrong altogether.
Go to USPSA PCC Nationals and I doubt you'll see a single skilled competitor doing the chicken wing stance.
JefftheBaptist@reddit
Go watch people shooting Service Rifle at a High Power National Match. I bet you will see tons of chicken wings.
PoorBoyDaniel@reddit
Actually you probably won't. You'll see lots of guys doing that weird underhanded mag grip technique that's common with the old style rifle slings though. It's an incredibly artificial discipline with basically zero real world application. An extension of the unrealistic shooting techniques that were common during the WWI era, like one handed pistol shooting with a heavily bladed stance. Similarly impractical.
Shoot how you want. You can hold the rifle upside down if it floats your boat champ.
Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
Very true and that's a fair statement but most people are not shooting competitively like we are.
PoorBoyDaniel@reddit
It still has the same benefits for non competitive shooters as well.
I mean ultimately if you're just shooting for fun, shoot however you want, but that doesn't mean the way you're shooting is proper, or the ideal way. Lots of people own guns to defend themselves, I don't think it's helpful to throw around platitudes instead of teaching them the most modern, ideal technique.
Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
Here's the way I look at it and I'm sure you'll agree. I was taught how to shoot in the USMC and we were always told to tuck our elbows. That's the way I do it because that's the way I was taught.
On the flip side, the way I look at firearms training is this, the people that want to get better we'll seek out the training and the people that don't are probably just plinker so they can do whatever and it's not going to make that much of a difference. I hope that makes sense.
Pravus_Nex@reddit
I feel that's allot of shooting, bodies are different. Long as it's comfortable and you shoot good go ham.. if you teacup but outshoot everyone, then it's not wrong..
Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
As humans we are very strange. We always feel like we have to have a right way to do things and the reality is, there's several different ways to do things that can be correct.
As you mentioned, I seen some competitive shooters that look like they have terrible grips but man can they shoot. I'm not going to tell a person that's beating me in a shooting match they need to fix things when they can out shoot me.
mkosmo@reddit
There's an old adage out there, the Perl programming language's motto: TMTOWTDI - "there's more than one way to do it"
I wish more people would embrace that in all facets of life.
PoorBoyDaniel@reddit
That's a fun statement, but no one is going to do well teacup shooting at a high level. No one.
Lots of meaningless platitudes getting thrown around. There isn't a single right way to do things, but that doesn't mean there aren't tons of wrong ways to do things.
SmoothSlavperator@reddit
All depends if the target is shooting back. You want a smaller profile.
monty845@reddit
The reduction in area facing the enemy is minimal unless they are shooting at you from directly above or below you. You are moving about the same amount of area from an angle that places it further from your center of mass, to an angle that places it closer to your center of mass. If anything, I think it might be slightly more likely to hit your tucked in arm, than the further parts of your arm when chicken winging, if the attacker is shooting center of mass.
All and all, it seems like a really minimal benefit, if there is one at all.
Heavy-Twist-390@reddit
Does the round go where you want? All that is needed for most people. You are right.
Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
Here's what I found to be true. Some people are okay with plinking around and they don't really want to be high level shooters. Nothing wrong with that. People like that, as long as they have basic fundamentals down then that's fine.
If a person is going to put in the effort to become a high level shooter then they don't really need our help anyway because they're going to find the information.
Successful_Bar9187@reddit (OP)
Amazing, thanks
shooter505@reddit
Ever since I was taught as an MP5 operator and later, instructor, I was told that any shoulder-fired firearm can be controlled better if the upper body was "wrapped" around that shouldered firearm. That is, upper torso is hunched, both arms are tucked in and pulling the firearm into the hunch - not a "bent-over" hunch, but the best way I can describe it is "wrapped," which is the same term that my H&K instructors used.
This method of "wrapped" upper body stability is especially useful during the typical H&K-instructed smooth heel-toe, heel-toe, bent-knee walking and firing movement.
As I said, it also works with shotguns, rifles, and PDWs. That's my experience, anyway.
In the spirit of "do what works for you," that method may not work for everyone, but it sure does for me and I would encourage anyone to have an open mind and give it a try.
Basic-Tackle-9293@reddit
this only really matters if you are in CQB. if you are on a flat range do what you want. most importantly are you hitting where you need to if not, start making the smaller changes.
DoubtGroundbreaking@reddit
Doesnt change a thing, do whatever is comfortable. If youre in a firefight and shooting around a corner, maybe keep it tucked in
Puzzleheaded-Ad-4846@reddit
So tucking your arm close to body does add a little cushion especially for larger caliber rifles, prolonged sessions, or older/weaker shooters. Otherwise its just stock on bone. Try one shit each way and you decide for yourself.
JefftheBaptist@reddit
It adds cushion but also makes for a shallower pocket. I've seen multiple people try to start shooting 12 gauge with a tucked armed and basically had the gun skip down their shoulder into their bicep.
Once they learned hot to control the recoil, they can switch to a tucked posture, but it is unwise to start them there.
BlueOrb07@reddit
If it’s got a pistol grip, tuck the elbow. If you’re shooting a traditional stock/shotgun, chicken wing.
hafetysazard@reddit
The angle of the pistol grip is going to determine where your elbow ends up. That’s why you’ll probably chicken wing on a mosin, or old musket, and be able to tuck with a vertical pistol grip on an AR.
gunplumber700@reddit
It’s funny that almost nobody brought up the effect recoil has on body position.
The chicken wing is found a lot more on higher recoiling long guns. It’s also found a lot more on long guns with more traditional style stocks. It’s a lot more natural on a higher recoiling 12 gauge o/u, than a low recoiling ar with a pistol grip.
the_hat_madder@reddit
You'll fight the way you practice.
So, practice whatever makes you the fastest, most accurate and precise.
ZeroPointSpecter@reddit
Both positions exist for a reason, and neither is “wrong.”
What you’re feeling, that the angled elbow gives you a nicer pocket, is 100% what that position does.
A good way to think about it:
Also worth noting: even experienced shooters don’t all do the exact same thing, there isn’t a universal “correct” elbow position, and being consistent matters more than copying a trend. Don’t force a modern stance if it feels awkward; find a comfortable middle ground for yourself and stay consistent.
hueynot@reddit
Many ways to skin a cat my friend. Nothing better than an electrician with no military/leo background winning a comp with 90% having formal training.
However you get the most rounds on target is what you should be doing. It’s like golf, there is no magic one swing; just fine tuning your fundamentals to be deadly accurate
Accurate_Reporter252@reddit
There are four elements to elbow position...
First, is whether or not someone's shooting back at you.
Second is how you were trained by an institution.
Third is how your body interfaces with the stock and sights.
Fourth is how the rifle's designer built the stock and sight plane(s).
First, most organizations training for you getting shot at--and people trained by them after the training focus changed--are going to press for "lower elbow/smaller target" which is part and parcel with the second element. Prior to a point--often while theses institutions primary weapon was a battle rifle with an extended range--the priority was long range accuracy, often beyond the range your elbow position didn't particularly enhance the enemy's ability to hit you as much as their long range accuracy.
Which is why we're jumping to the fourth element next.
Rifle design--which is usually a function of the institution in some countries that run their own acquisition programs--influences the position as well and--by extension--the training.
The two images you used--an SLR variant of the FN FAL (or L1A1) and the L85A2--happen to both be designs adopted by the UK's military. The key design differences are the position of the heel of the buttstock (top, rear, where it interfaces with the shoulder), relative to the axis of the weapon's recoil and the axis of the weapons sights. The length and heft may have an impact on some designs, but these three points drive where the "pocket" of your shoulder needs to be to get both the eye reliably behind the sights and the recoil managed for rapid fire.
(I.e. the third element, body interface...)
When the weapon is designed for automatic fire from the shoulder, it often has the stock's heel in line with or slightly above the axis of the weapon's recoil. This reduces the leverage the recoiling rifle has against the shoulder. When this happens, the sight plane is shifted upward because humans don't have eyes where their incisors are.
This is, of course, part of the rifle and stock design, often specified by the institution buying it (or accepted by them when the rifle is chosen from existing designs). This impacts the elbow placement by forcing the shooter's body to interface with the stock design to place the eye behind the sight and the stock heel where recoil can be managed, which is--in turn--usually the shooting form taught by the institution, moderated by the expectation of whether or not enemy marksmanship is seen as a major threat factor at that range...
Even this can change over time in the same institution.
Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship (1999) - YouTube USMC 1999
(29) Marine Corps Parris Island Training: Firing Week - YouTube Post 2010
Successful_Bar9187@reddit (OP)
Thanks!!
f0rcedinducti0n@reddit
Simple.
Are you a 1993 SWAT Team member? Chicken wing.
2026? Keep your elbow tucked against your body.
Successful_Bar9187@reddit (OP)
I wish I was a 1993 SWAT team member. They were so badass in the 90s
FortyMaximus@reddit
I prefer weaver stance to put pressure to achieve more stability and reduce firearm sway + muzzle rise
walt-and-co@reddit
As a shooting instructor, albeit not one who regularly focuses on practical shooting, forcing an unnatural position won’t harm you. You seem to have taken the best option: learn the theory, understand why people say to do something specific, be critical, and then experiment from that educated position until you get something that works for you.
le-churchx@reddit
The only real thing that matters is what works.
Some people have different physiologies and sometimes what could be teh most efficient ways for people to do things might not for one.
Results is what matters.
WoodEyeLie2U@reddit
I was taught to shoot by my Vietnam vet father. I shoot handguns one handed and long guns with my elbow out. The kids at the range tell me I'm doing it wrong but I hit the black every time.
Leroy1864@reddit
You’ve probably heard this before, but certain pistols (1911 and very many revolvers) are designed to be shot one handed.
The grip angle on them is different, making a sideways, one handed grip more natural to the gun.
Sub7viaLimeWire@reddit
When I was a teen we would play paintball in the woods. I was firing from behind cover and caught a paintball right in the joint of my elbow because I had my chicken wing hanging out. After that I started tucking my elbow.
Later doing CQC stuff getting through a door with a rifle or shotgun out its way easier with it tucked.
If you’re just on a flat range having fun, I don’t think it matters much.
Equivalent-Region895@reddit
I was a combat medic in the army during GWOT and most people I saw shot were in the arms and legs. Tucking in the elbow help put plates forward decreasing the likelihood that you’ll be shot in the side where’s there’s no armor or in the arm since it’s sticking out.
Leroy1864@reddit
All that the tucked elbow does is face your plate carrier forward, a more open stance is more natural.
PoorBoyDaniel@reddit
Then why do virtually all high level competitive practical shooters tuck their elbow when they never wear body armor? It has other benefits. Faster/easier target transitions, more natural movement, better recoil control, less fatiguing during long strings of fire.
BarrowX@reddit
Classic bladed elbow out position is from the time when rifles and stocks were longer and pinpoint target accuracy was more prioritized. This stance might be more comfortable with say a M1 Garand or G3.
Newer more squared and elbow in position came about with plate carriers, adjusteble stock and intermediate calibers, priorotizing the ability of follow up shots within 100m rather than accuracy at range.
If you feel you have to have a classic stance with a modern AR15 you should trying collapsing the stock.
If you are of smaller stature and have an unadjustable stock blading your stance, shooting more "old school" might feel more natural.
The classic bladed stance still has it's place with sniper and hunting rifles.
WhoIsJohnSalt@reddit
I shoot rifles (and shotguns) with allow out at nearly 90° I think this comes from starting out with sporting shotguns.
I’m way way more accurate for small target work like that vs with my elbow tucked in.
Now, the really high level shooters have all sorts of poses using bones and body and gloves etc and I suspect that’s what’s needed at that level, but I can shoot (on occasion) a 50 at 20 yards with my 10/22 on a PL14 target with wing out.
Affectionate_Loan_20@reddit
Chicken wings are for KFC anyone that says different should stick to airsoft and paintball
not-a-co-conspirator@reddit
Tucked elbow in against the body does help a bit with recoil management. At the end of the day it’s a lot like golf, swing your swing. As long as you’re hitting targets keep training.
Tempeng18@reddit
I was in the USMC during the transition phase, and so I had been trained using both. Winged elbow for iron sights and then tucked elbow switching to ACOGs. Never felt it made a huge difference until we got to QCB - naturally a tucked elbow makes it easier going through doorframes, may as well train that as muscle memory.