Fired for coming to work after surgery
Posted by Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit | GenX | View on Reddit | 527 comments
Has anyone been fired from
work after coming back to work the day after surgery?
I took one sick day for surgery, and planned to return the next day. I was clear in communicating this with management. Management put me out for two days (which I don't have in sick leave or vacation - have had to use those for medical as I live in a rural area where it takes 2.5-4 hours each way to see a doctor).
Since our workload was low, on the second day I agreed to rest and stay home, with her encouragement.
I come in the next day to be told I cannot return to work without a doctor's note. I call the surgical team in the next state for the note, which they say cannot be emailed, and give them the fax number so they can fax it asap. They tell me not to expect it before mid-week.
Apparently two days without being present is termination. I went in today to demonstrate I am available and willing to work, which the management took as being difficult and escalating the situation.
There is nothing in our employee handbook about this.
Also, when I spoke with the clinic out of state where I had surgery again this morning, they told me this is not uncommon. It had just happened to a friend up there.
So I'm Gen X, and neither I nor any of of my colleagues or friends in several states I've lived were aware of this requirement.
The manager is Milennial and said that everyone knows this rule.
Honestly, I don't want to be where I am not wanted, and whatever.
My question is mainly: how many people are aware
of this (and how did you find out before having surgery?)?
School of hard knocks:1. Me:0
Green_Bluebird5804@reddit
GenX has nothing to do with anything. It's your work policy.
72vintage@reddit
I had cataract surgery this spring, one eye at the end of February and the other in mid March. I requested 30 days off because that was the original timeline I was given at the surgeon's consultation. However he apparently didn't realize that not everyone has a job in a nice clean office. I work outdoors in all weather conditions so my eyes are subject to dirt, dust, fluids/chemicals/fumes, and heavy direct wind and sun. My optometrist said hell no, you need 30 days from the day of the second surgery to fully heal before you go back out on job sites. So I had to request more time and my company requested a letter from the optometrist with exact conditions that could be damaging to my eyes, and an exact date I would be cleared RTW. It had to be worded in specific exact language before they'd accept it. Sometimes you just have to jump through their hoops...
Ill_Salad_1022@reddit
Usually I have been in contact with them and someone would say "....btw you need a Dr release before you come back". It sounds like yours is day surgery though and you could have just done it in a Friday and not worked the weekend and they wouldn't even know you had the surgery!
Invisibella74@reddit
Every job I have worked has required doctor authorization to come back to work after medical leave.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Even for one day using sick leave? Is that you mean?
Nanatomany44@reddit
Yes. Every single job UNLESS it had PTO you can use as needed without penalty.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
interesting, thank you!
Invisibella74@reddit
Leave, or just PTO or sick time?
For leave, yes. Because pay is different on leave and everything has to go through a company outside corporate HR. They have all required doctor authorization to know when to end the leave.
For sick time, which is just PTO of a different name, no. Although, sometimes a doctor note is required to prove why you were on sick time.
Those are my experiences though.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Mine was specifically one day of sick leave.
IBroughtWine@reddit
I’d get an employment attorney asap, that’s, at the very least, incredibly shady.
Reasonable-Crab670@reddit
I've had 8 surgeries (each planned and time off requested ahead of time). I never needed a note to return to work. Even after an unplanned 6 days in the hospital after an emergency, no note was required to return to work. I've never brought any kind of doctor's note to an employer. Good luck.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this.
Steerider@reddit
Sounds suspect to me. You were absent specifically because they told you you were not to come back until you had the note. Okay, you did as you were told.
Probably not illegal though. Just your employer being jerks.
axl3ros3@reddit
Depends on your jurisdiction
Sounds suspect
I'd contact a couple employment attorneys and run it by them, almost all of them will give 10-15 minute consultation over the phone (or email via their "contact us" pages
Extreme-Amount-9689@reddit
Dr notes at my job are useless. If you’re in attendance trouble the Only options are LOA, FMLA, ST OR LT Disability. The paperwork is confusing. I think they make it that way on purpose. Chat GPT is amazing help for filling these forms out. But yeah, if someone has surgery a dr note is required for your leave office.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay this is good to know. Thanks for this!
Unfortunately I don't qualify for FMLA..
Extreme-Amount-9689@reddit
Probably LOA would be a better fit then.
AdhesiveSeaMonkey@reddit
There is not a universal answer here. Each company gets to set their own policy. However, I will say it sounds like they were looking for a reason to let you go. Depending on where you are financially, you could agree to agree with them and move on. Or... if there truly is nothing in the handbook about it, you could fight your case.
skinisblackmetallic@reddit
Is this specifically for surgery? It seems like there would need to be pretty specific written guidelines for something like this.
Junior_Ad_3301@reddit
Damn. Your employer sucks ass. I bet your next adventure is a better move for ya
Silver_Breakfast7096@reddit
I’d talk to an attorney or the labor board if possible. Get a copy of employee handbook.
thewatchwinder@reddit
^ This is the way
Rare_Slice420@reddit
Where I worked it’s a doctor note if out more than 3 days
mktgmstr@reddit
So many dependents: what kind of surgery? How would that surgery impact your job? Carpal tunnel? Do you have to type a lot? Knee surgery? Do you have to walk a lot? Ingrown toe nail surgery? Are a soccer player? Cataract surgery? I worked the day after mine without a note. I just had to wear dark glasses outside, turn off a set of the overhead florescents, and bring my eye drops with me. Abdominal or back surgery? Do you have a lot of heavy lifting? Oral surgery? Do you chew for a living?
The point is if the surgery didn't interfere with your work, then there's no reason to expect to need a doctor's note to return to work.
Sad-Macaroon9067@reddit
My husband had a recent, emergency hospitalization. He has PTO, not medical leave. They required a return to work note. That was the first time he has ever needed a note.
Petrostar@reddit
When it's PTO they should dictate how, when or for how long you have to use it.
AdGold205@reddit
I worked for a government agency and if we were out sick for more than 3 days we couldn’t return without a doctor’s note.
After any kind of surgery that would have work restrictions they would also require a note stating the restrictions and when the employee could return to normal work duties without restrictions.
Next-Drummer-9280@reddit
They were looking for a reason to fire you. This was their excuse. Guarantee they're calling it a no call/no show.
How do you have nearly 30 years of work experience and NOT know that you need a doctor's note to return to work after SURGERY?
gcsmith2@reddit
If they were only out a day or two never should have given up personal information on the procedure.
Next-Drummer-9280@reddit
What an utterly charming attitude.
gcsmith2@reddit
It’s none of their business. How is that my attitude problem? Do you also discuss your wife’s menstrual cycles with hr?
Next-Drummer-9280@reddit
Now you’re just being an obtuse asshole.
PumpikAnt58763@reddit
I'm hoping that last paragraph was sarcasm because I've never heard of needing a doctor's note to go back to work unless your reason for being absent was that you were contagious.
I had a gastric bypass (in early December) yeeeears ago and we had our annual trainings in early January. I came back to work after 4 weeks instead of the recommended 6 weeks and my manager just said that if I needed days off occasionally to just take one every few days so that I wouldn't have to go back to the surgeon for an "out of work for 4 or more days" note.
Seems asinine to make someone get a note to come back.
Next-Drummer-9280@reddit
It’s not. Your manager screwed up letting you RTW early.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
It's not. Your manager put both of you at risk. You for an injury, and the business for a WC claim.
Your doctor may have agreed to release you earlier, but with restrictions that would reduce the likelihood of injuries.
strangerbuttrue@reddit
I have more than 30 years of work experience and have never heard I need a note to return to work. I also would not be explaining my absence if I requested the time off in advance because it’s none of their business why I need a few days off.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I schedule one sick leave day and returned the next day.
All of my former employers have required we work, and it has been almost impossible to take off time for illness etc.
So no, I had no idea one day of sick leave would require a doctor's note to return to work the next day.
Hoping this thread will help get the word out and sace other people's jobs.
Dramatic-Pass-1555@reddit
At the end of the day, all of these people saying you have a case for wrongful termination, need to realize, as do you OP, that Wyoming is an At-will employment state. They need absolutely no reason to terminate you if you are not a contracted employee.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
It's definitely as Alice-in-Wonderland here in WY as it was living in Louisiana..
Dramatic-Pass-1555@reddit
The reason an employer terminates someone with cause is to give them ammunition in case that person tries to file Unemployment. That's the harsh reality of it.
If you are just now learning all of this at this point in your life, you have been extremely fortunate.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, my understanding is unemployment is only for seasonal work that ends.
valencia_merble@reddit
That would be unusual. All employees pay unemployment insurance tax and are entitled to benefits at layoff unless fired for cause. Returning to work early, without a letter, does not say “fireable offense” to me. I would speak to a lawyer.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
For sure. I do feel fortunate.
JonCoqtosten@reddit
"At-will" means they can terminate an employee for any reason except one that violates the law, including laws related to disabilities and medical leave.
valencia_merble@reddit
Yes. Oregon is at-will, but if you take Paid Leave Oregon (disability), they are required to give you your job back. Still requires a return letter.
Creepy_Radio_3084@reddit
Every state, except Montana, is 'at will'. Even Montana is 'at will' for the first 6 months of employment.
Also, they do need a reason, and that reason must be legal - they can't terminate you for being pregnant, for example.
If I were OP, I'd be reviewing state employment laws and looking for an employment lawyer who'd work on contingency...
Nanatomany44@reddit
YOU HAVE TO HAVE A NOTE RELEASING YOU TO WORK ON "X" DAY AND YOU COMMUNICATE THIS TO YOUR MANAGER, BRING THE NOTE ON "X" DAY WHEN YOU RETURN.
HOW ARE YOU THIS OLD AND NOT KNOW THIS????
And WHY didn't your MD include this in your discharge instructions? That is standard practice.
ON second thought, l think this is fake. No one is this dumb.
FreeCanday@reddit
The US is insane. You dont have to live like this.
StinkypieTicklebum@reddit
We kinda do.
jer1303@reddit
This is an asshole take
itsyounotme2023@reddit
Do you have 50 people within a 75 mile radius?
Have you been there 1 year?
Have you worked more than 1250 hours?
Depending on the full scope of the procedure... duties.. how much time you should take off vs did take off..
What i am trying to say if they termed you and this was considered and fmla event, and they knew it was an fmla event they could very much be on the hook
read me.. and a lawyer might be worth the conversation.. this coming from a "evil hr person" 🙄
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I started in January at this position.. Unfortunately here in rural US, when it takes ten months to schedule surgery and things get bad over that period, I elected to keep the surgery date. I do not have FMLA.
itsyounotme2023@reddit
That is unfortunate, living in rural America is get it.
However a coversatile might still be worth it, depending on details, this couls be a temporary ADA accommodation as well.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
My colleague in CO is also recommending ADA.. will take a look for sure. I've tried to bring up ADA already in other contexts since it impacts what we do municipally, and was ignored.
I've seen a lot of demonstrations here of being 'above' or 'outside' the law - thoughts that it does not apply here.
itsyounotme2023@reddit
Its important to make sure you go directly to HR.. and say "i want to talk about an dADA accommodation"
There is a legal obligation to enter into the interactive process. However, what the employee deems reasonable and what the comany does, can vary, but if it ever comes up in court the company needs to prove the undue hardship.
Without knowing what you mean by ada and impacts i cant comment on that directly..
Apart-Cream-4940@reddit
I agree. It wasn't in the handbook. They didn't tell you ahead of time. Consult a lawyer whether you want to go back or not.
itsyounotme2023@reddit
I sent a dm to OP, as well.. hr might have been told it was straight attendance and not a medical event as well..
This sounds like a shitty manager.. I'd love to see that handbook
BinkyNoctem420@reddit
I stopped OFFERING notes when I left school. I'm a fucking adult that can vote, drink alcohol and enter a binding contract. If that contract, that'd be your Employee Handbook acknowledgement according to HR I imagine, doesn't say I need a permission slip to return to work then they need to show me where I'm indentured vs employed
I'll find another job offered by & working with other adults.
Master_Hospital_8631@reddit
"The manager is Millennial and said that everyone knows this rule."
That's when you inform them that you were never told about this rule. At some point, when you were informing them about your surgery, this rule should have been reiterated.
"Good luck with the surgery. And, remember, you'll need a doctor's note when you return to work. This is very important."
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That's exactly what I emailed in response to have documentation. Thanks for this.
Difficult-Relation56@reddit
Save that email. Give it to the lawyer you’re gonna hire.
Apprehensive_Row_807@reddit
It’s because millennials can’t communicate effectively, if at all.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Oh boy.
BmanGorilla@reddit
You work for a shitty employer. If you can find something else easily then this is a blessing in disguise.
Difficult-Relation56@reddit
💯 agree to this
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this. I feel this too. Everything will work out.
And if this thread saves anyone else's job then we've done a great service sharing info and stories.
sanityjanity@reddit
You weren't fired for coming to work after surgery. You were fired because someone wanted to fire you, and they used this as an excuse.
Talk to a labor lawyer, and take printouts of your communications, and the handbook. You can usually get a free initial consultation or at least a cheap one.
Difficult-Relation56@reddit
Do this. You might not get your job back but you may get a severance. You definitely need to file for unemployment.
kat2211@reddit
Oregon here - never heard of it. Even when I had surgery several years ago when I worked for an attorney, he never mentioned a thing about it when I came back after a few days.
It's a bizarre and paternalistic rule, for sure. There might, might, be justification in very physical jobs where they want to make sure that you're okay before putting you back in a situation where you're really exerting yourself, but for a desk job it's beyond abusrd.
And OP, by the way, rule or not, I would absolutely see an employment attorney. It sounds like your employer handled this extremely poorly and unprofessionally, and it's not in the handbook, they really shouldn't be relying on it.
randomusername1919@reddit
We sometimes do and sometimes don’t require a doc note to return. Depends on the issue. Getting fired for it seems a bit over the top though.
la_winky@reddit
For two days off? I’ve never experienced that policy. My experience is three days or more requires proof you were actually sick, not. “Back to work clearance”.
Novel-Damage9370@reddit
Many companies require it. The reason is to negate any liability to the company if you return before it is medically advisable and cause yourself complications. There are cases where employers were sued and became liable for allowing them to work before they should have. The scamming employee will claim that the employer was told the doctor wanted them to wait longer or knew about certain restrictions but allowed them to work anyway, all to shift the medical cost of the complications from their own pocket to the company’s. And it works. So now most employers want to see a clearly dated return to work document.
NewHandle3922@reddit
Human Resources should be a little more helpful than this. WTF!
heynow941@reddit
Their job is to protect the company.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Would have appreciated that for sure, yeah.
Specialist_Ad2936@reddit
I’ve never heard of this policy. For those saying it’s a commonly-known requirement, who establishes it? The employer? Government/safety regulations? A union?
Was the surgery related to a worker’s comp claim? Maybe it’s common in specific industries or localities?
Whatever the case, it seems like it would be included in the employee handbook. The whole situation sounds pretextual, particularly telling you to stay home, then firing you for staying home.
Anyway, I’ve never seen that as a categorical policy and I’ve worked in four different states, done food service, government, retail, and I’m currently a lawyer (this is not legal advice, just to illustrate the fields I’m familiar with. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about employment law.)
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
This is generally established by the employer. They would require a return to work note to verify if an employee is medically cleared to return to work. If someone returns that hasn't been cleared, they could get injured and then need to file a workers comp claim.
The second reason is to know if an employee has restrictions. For example, OP may be released to return to work the next day (unlikely) but can't lift greater than 10 lbs., stand no more than 15 minutes at a time, and walk no more than 15 minutes at a time for 30 days.
The employer may have light duty jobs that accommodate these restrictions, if not the employee would need to be placed on leave.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting. The surgeon said I was cleared to work the next day. No paperwork though to support it so I didn't think it was necessary.
I sit at a computer at work, no lifting standing or walking required.
NoNamesLeft998@reddit
This.
I don't remember if it was covered in the handbook or communicated when time off was scheduled, but employees knew it was required prior to returning.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That helps, thanks.
This is not work-related. Also nothing about it in our handbook...
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
That helps your case if you file a complaint.
Coffeecat200@reddit
They were looking for any reason to fire you. Consult an attorney. All 3 times in my life I was out of work for surgery I needed a doctor's note to return to work. My last surgery I was out for 8 weeks.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this.. appreciate you.
Plenty_Cress_1359@reddit
File for unemployment. I put in my notice, gave them 4 weeks to work out my schedule and they said, “fuck it, you’re fired.” I laughed at them and thanked them for the unemployment. They tried to fight it and I won. Then I drug their asses at wage and hour because they kept my bonus, made me pay back a bonus and kept all my vacation time. They had to pay that too
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is helpful - will keep in mind, thank you!
5150-gotadaypass@reddit
I’ve only heard of that if you were injured on the job. Occasionally, some lower level positions require a note if you miss time, but it sounds like they were all aware you would be out.
I’m so sorry OPie! That really sucks!
Automatic-Evidence26@reddit
I live in the Washington DC Suburbs
My last job I learned this after being wfh for a period of time, I did not get fired, but was told that I needed to be cleared by the doc to return to work, even though the work from home paper said I only needed to be out of work or please allow me to work from home for ex number of weeks
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is helpful, thanks... Interesting to see the various industries. I've been in several and have never seen this myself prior.
largos7289@reddit
100% knew. I mean i don't understand why you think it would be OK to just show up without the letters from the Dr or Surgeon stating that you are good to go back to work. You show up to work then get re-hurt your a liability, then it's on them.
Correct-Doctor8329@reddit
What was the reason they cited for firing you. No one fires for not producing a return to work note. They may however not allow to work until you are cleared.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I'll ask to get it in writing. Appreciate you!
Correct-Doctor8329@reddit
You're positive you were fired and not just told to not return until cleared?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I was told two days of not being present at work is termination.
Correct-Doctor8329@reddit
Usually that's for a no call no show. You spoke with your manager so it was approved. Unless it is for after...when they told you you couldn't return, did you submit the proper request?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I followed procedure I was told about - submitted request for one day of sick leave. Was approved by manager. Came in the next day and was told to leave because I had no doctor note.
Sea_Measurement_1654@reddit
This would never happen in my country. There are laws around dismissal.
Bratbabylestrange@reddit
We all kinda live in a cesspool run by an incontinent Cheetolini, unfortunately. Living for November rn
Sea_Measurement_1654@reddit
I like your phrasing.
brezhnervouz@reddit
Nor mine
Smokey_Panda_@reddit
That sounds like a rule that particular business has in place (or just made up), with you knowing about or not. I've never worked anywhere that had that rule, and you were always encouraged to come back whenever you felt healthy enough to do so.
Although, I am aware of companies that require physical labor requiring an all clear note for employees on workmanship comp but the requirement for a healthy to return to work note from a doctor is usually well documented and informed in those situations.
Either way, sorry about your situation and I hope you find another job soon.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Appreciate you - thanks for what you say. I am hoping this thread saves other folks' jobs as they navigate this in future..
Dramatic-Pass-1555@reddit
If you had surgery, they want a release from the doctor stating you can come back to work, because it is a liability to them if you show up on pain pills or other meds and are hurt on the job.
As far as not calling in every day and then getting terminated for No Call/No Show that's all your fault. The company told you they needed a release and then didn't hear from you. You would be surprised at the amount of people who simply quit because they lied about going to the doctor and then can't produce anything.
These are common rules for most food processing jobs like Tyson or Cargill or any large manufacturing companies, places that normally have a high turn around rate. They don't want you impaired around high speed moving equipment.
If that is the kind of job you had or something similar, all that information was given to you when you were hired and was more than likely stated on a piece of paper you didn't read and just initialed.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Actually, I returned to work on schedule, the next day before anyone mentioned I needed any sort of documentation to return to work.
I was always at work, and never a no show.
Dramatic-Pass-1555@reddit
That generally happens when the Lead doesn't know anything and lets you start as normal and then when attendance is turned in, HR flags it...."Why is this person working? They haven't been released." The company is only concerned with covering their ass.
If you sat at home waiting on your doctor to fax the info and you didn't call and check in with HR every single day you were out, all of those are marked No call/no show. It sucks, but it is nothing new.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I figured it is better to go down showing I am willing to work instead of being a no show.
OptiGuy4u@reddit
I think I might consult a labor attorney if I were you. But it depends on how much you liked the job, if you can easily get another one, and how much tension you want if you were to go back. But you could always end up suing for wrongful termination and getting a settlement.
If you're really being honest about the story, it doesn't seem like they had the right to fire you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yep. I'm chalking it up to experience. Hoping it helps other people navigate this sort of thing.
I got my surgery after waiting ten months for it. I had insurance. So I'll take the win - health is more than a job - as I have also learned.
Difficult-Relation56@reddit
Never heard of this. I just took FMLA and informed HR. I expected my manager to learn it from HR.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay, thanks. I am glad you have FMLA! I don't unfortunately but for anyone reading this it will be super helpful for them to keep in mind.
Leading-Summer-4724@reddit
If you live in the US, you do. It’s just not paid, and you have to inform HR before you take it.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I don't have it until I have worked for the employer for over a year, according to HR and the handbook.
MommaGuy@reddit
Sounds like they are covering their butts by requiring a Dr’s note. They would be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits if someone came back and hurt themselves or others.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This totally makes sense - and they also should let the employee know so we can ask for and produce the documentation, methinks...
MommaGuy@reddit
They should have made that requirement known beforehand. You could have had the note upon returning.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That was my thought process, which I shared clearly with my manager. Thanks for that. I am great about following procedure - but I do need to know about it so I can follow it.
Zealousideal_Set_874@reddit
Law suit
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
Have you talked to HR? How many people work there? Are you in the US?
Most places where I've worked in the US do require a return to work notice. It's because they want to know if you're medically cleared and if you have any restrictions that need to be accommodated.
Please call HR (and record the call). Then you may want to call an employment lawyer. DO NOT mention a lawyer when you speak to them!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this. HR is on vacation this week so I may just be out of luck on this one. Or maybe it means something is better up ahead.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
Ok. Call them when they get back. You need all the information. Then you need to reach out to your state's department of Labor, AND to the EEOC.
cheerfultinker4@reddit
I'm GenX & I've known this (53f)
Career has taken me Midwest, East Coast, Midwest (different state), Southwest. Asked around & my colleagues, fam & friends also knew this. I'm so sorry you didn't, OP. Wishing you the best 🌸
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
It's all good. I got my surgery after ten months wait, and am recovering well.
Now we all have learned we need a note when we take one day off for sick leave to be able to return to work.. I guess..
cheerfultinker4@reddit
It's stupid but it's all about CYA. I'm glad you received your surgery!! All the best, OP
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yes indeed. That's what I am taking from this. Super grateful.
underbunderz@reddit
Nothing about requiring notes in the company handbook?
Last_Cod_998@reddit
I wasn't fired, but uers, I guess insurance require companies need a fit for duty letter.
My company had me fill out FMLA paperwork for my life insurance company. The insurance company approved it, but I went into negative PTO. When I asked why I bothered with the insurance paperwork the company said that was so they wouldn't fire me.
WTF?
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
FMLA provides job protection. You can have up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave continuously or 480 hours of intermittently.
Last_Cod_998@reddit
I know, but my employer was never like this.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
Gotcha 👌
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this - that's a new one for sure and someone who reads this is going to learn something important from your story!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Not one word.
MienaLovesCats@reddit
Not every company. Every person should know their companies policy for taking sick days ect.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay. I definitely am not versed in taking time off. I asked for one day and was approved and thought that was all there was to it.
There was nothing in the handbook about this.
Left-Star2240@reddit
It sounds like you weren’t properly prepared by management for your leave.
A doctor’s note stating that you are able to return to work, along with any restrictions is common after a medical leave. This is to avoid lawsuits.
It does seem odd that you would even need leave for a surgery that would only keep you out for a day. Do you have reason to believe they wanted to fire you, and are using this as an excuse?
Few_Razzmatazz_6381@reddit
This is my sense, too. It sounds like they were looking for a way to fire OP.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Only my gut feeling and the sense that a doctor's note for one day of sick leave is .. not reasonable?
I guess it shows that I never take time off or I would have known, right?
2014Subaru@reddit
Doctors note, required to return to work after 3 days of being out sick. That has been the standard just about everywhere I have worked
OptiGuy4u@reddit
Same.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right - is that also true for one day of sick leave?
OptiGuy4u@reddit
Nope 3 days....that's why I said go see a lawyer.
PumpikAnt58763@reddit
You need a note to be out for 3 or more days.
OP is saying they required a note to let him come back to work.
OptiGuy4u@reddit
Oh I get it ..3 days equals note...pretty sure thats the statement I agreed with to the person I replied to. Thanks for playing..
Then also told the OP directly to see a labor attorney.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right - is this also true for one day, is what I am hoping to learn.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right - only in my case I was out for one day. No one told me I would require a note to return the next day to work.
Anthropic_me@reddit
Every place that I have worked, required an authorized Dr. release before I could return back to work. Should have been noted in the employee handbook.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
Yes it should!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That would have helped me follow the rules for sure!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good to know. Thanks for this.
I had to request one day of sick leave, which was authorized. No other mention of required paperwork in the two months from notice to day off.
tdlm40@reddit
Ok. My boss requires ZERO notes. He says we are all adults and can manage ourselves appropriately. As long as we text/call if we aren't going to be in, that is good.
I had 2 ablations for afib, a pacemaker put on, and an AV node ablation all in the last 2 years, and a bunch of drs appointments, and he didn't need notes.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this - very appreciative that you are sharing this.
tdlm40@reddit
I hope your former employers have an eternal itch they can't scratch.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Dude. Now I'm laughing. lil
Ok_Still_8202@reddit
It sounds like they are looking for a reason to fire you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Agree
CheckIntelligent7828@reddit
"Everyone knows this" isn't a legal defense.
Is it spelled out exactly how they handled it in the handbook? Was it in your contract? In your training? If not, I would contact an employment attorney. Then I would notify the state labor board that you were fired unjustly. You may not want to work there, but the company owes you severance or unemployment if they fired you due to their negligence.
Fwiw, the only time I needed a note was when I injured myself at work (hit my knee hard enough to dislocate it). I had many medical absences and surgeries, it was always up to me when I felt able to return.
I hope you feel better and your next employer is more reasonable.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yes - thanks for this. Recovery is going well and am just really grateful to have finally had surgery I waited ten months for and to had had insurance for it.
Anything else is icing on the cake.
If you don't have your health you don't have squat, is what the last year has taught me.
Good points and thank you, I appreciate you.
OriginalIronDan@reddit
This is the answer. If it’s not in the rule book, you’re at least eligible for unemployment. Make sure you have a copy of the rule book.
karmadoesntwait@reddit
I'm in CA and any job I've ever had requires a doctor's note to return to work if you're out more than three days - never 2. I've never had a surgery where I could go back in less than 3 days so I'd rely on my release restrictions, if none, I'd assume no note necessary. Like you, I'd reference the employee handbook. If you live in an at will employment state I'm not sure there's much you can do. Regardless, I'd talk to either your corporate HR dept or an employment attorney to see if you have options. Letting someone go due to surgery is a bad look. Once I knew I couldn't get my job back I'd be shouting it from the rooftops.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right. I only had one day off, for the surgery itself. And neither HR or my manager informed me any paperwork was necessary for me to return the next day.
karmadoesntwait@reddit
They will probably try to deny your unemployment. Keep all of your documentation. You can appeal it and get a hearing with a judge. My husband had to do it once and it was actually pretty easy. Take your documentation, your handbook, and by then your doctor's note with you. Since you said you live in a small town I'm guessing it might take a while to find something new. I'd still talk to an attorney though. Companies need to learn they have to follow the law and can be penalized if they don't.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this - will look into it. My understanding is I can't get unemployment for termination, it is only applicable for seasonal work which ends - but will doublecheck.
Next-Drummer-9280@reddit
Why didn't YOU ask if there were any requirements for returning to work? You're 50+ years old. Your boss and HR shouldn't have to hold your hand.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I guess since I don't take time off it didn't occur to me. All of my jobs over the past 40 years have not taken any excuse for time away from work. Never would have occurred to me that I couldn't work after one sick leave day.
The upside is that people reading this thread will learn about it and - I hope - navigate this better.
sp0rk_walker@reddit
Request for medical leave has to happen before surgery, no employer can deny it when done correctly.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Well, I did ask for sick leave for one day, and it was approved.
Ckn-bns-jns@reddit
There’s got to be more to this story.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I'm guessing my manager has someone in mind she would like to hire for my position.
Specialist_Ad2936@reddit
You said the workload was low, and that’s part of the reason for sending you home after the surgery. That suggests the employer/business may be struggling financially and thinks that firing you is a “clever” way to resolve that issue.
Whatever the case, OP, I’m sorry they’re doing this. Particularly when you just had surgery. Ugh.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good point.. hadn't thought of that angle. Could be!
I appreciate this - honestly having a surgery I have waited ten months to have is what I am most grateful for right now. And having had insurance to cover that part.
We have nothing without our health, as I learned already.
Winstons33@reddit
This. You dont get fired for a technicality unless the company thinks its better off without you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Totally.
imtooldforthishison@reddit
If you have worked there at least a year and banked at least 1250 hours, you shoukd be covered under FMLA and they can not fire you if you had a valid medical reason to be out. Paid or unpaid. They need to provide you with that option and you need to pursue it.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right.. I haven't worked there for a year yet. And I would have not let the surgeon out of my sight if I had been informed by HR or my manager beforehand that I needed the paperwork to return.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
You're still covered by the ADA, and maybe other laws based on the condition.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting, thank you..
I've brought up ADA as far as how we need to prepare for various ADA laws and have been blown off so far.
That tells me a bit about where they stand for sure.
GrookeyFan_16@reddit
Having been through this a few times, yes you need to file FMLA and then have a return to work authorization signed by the medical team to return to the office. This is where they would list any restrictions like weight lift limits, breaks, etc.
Generally your supervisor would have visited with HR ahead of this surgery and let you know the procedure unless it was an emergency surgery.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay, thanks for this.
Unfortunately I am not eligible for FMLA..
This was a one day of sick leave scenario HR and Management knew about for two months, as in order to accrue the 8 hours off I have had to work 9-12 hour days with no lunch for the last couple of months..
yeahnopegb@reddit
Common. It’s a liability to have you there right after a surgery so their insurance requires a CYA note from your doctor.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay this is helpful. Thanks for sharing this!
Bleary_Queen@reddit
I can see you having to have a note to return, but not a no call/no show- you talked to your Manager before hand to let them know.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
NC/NS is ridiculous!!!
BeepoZbuttbanger@reddit
I used to work in a factory. Was hospitalized for a kidney stone. Was warned that I could be fired for missing three days. Their policy was not to accept any doctor’s notes because “they just give them away for anything”. I downloaded FMLA forms, filled them out, tried turning them in, and was told “we don’t follow that here. At that point I said F-it and called the Department of Labor who promised they could straighten this out but that historically employers will find a reason down the line to fire an employee who raises a complaint like this. I was called into HR later that day to hand over my FMLA paperwork. Apparently they needed reminded of the penalties for ignoring federal law.
JellyfishWoman@reddit
Unfortunately FMLA laws only apply to companies/business that have 50 or more employees.
MaleficentExtent1777@reddit
The ADA applies to companies with only 15.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
And for people who have been employed for over one year.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That is amazing. Thanks for sharing that!
Kal_El_77@reddit
They did you dirty. Sounds like they were looking for a reason.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, thanks for this. It helps me feel slightly less nuts and paranoid.
Kal_El_77@reddit
Sorry, saw your edit. Yes, as long as I've been in the work force you usually need a docs note if you've been out for X number of days. My current company is 3 days or more. It really depends on the people you work for though. My boss doesn't really care. You had surgery though, not like you were just calling in sick. It's still not cool they fired you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I had no idea you need a note to return after one day of sick leave.
I guess it shows I never take time off work, right?
karen_boyer@reddit
I'm in HR and so I have a higher exposure to this kind of arcana, and yes I am aware that certain medical leaves require folks to provide a doctor's return to work authorization but I would never expect normies to know this and it's my job to inform people of it. Do most people provide them? NO. Have I seen anyone fired for that? NO. Would I chase someone down begging for that note if a boss told me to fire someone for not producing it? 100% I would and so would anyone else with an ounce of decency.
That sounds like some malicious compliance shit and I'm very sorry. I hope you heal up ok and that you find a better workplace.
Timely-Tourist4109@reddit
Wouldn’t also qualify for FMLA. I have not been in hr role for years but I would think surgery would be a qualifying event.
MarcusAurelius68@reddit
If the company is big enough, and OP worked there long enough, and it was submitted BEFORE surgery.
Timely-Tourist4109@reddit
If I recall, correct me if I am wrong, the organization has the right to place him on FMLA. It doesn’t have to be applied for ahead of the surgery.
MarcusAurelius68@reddit
“It is highly recommended to file your FMLA paperwork with HR at least 30 days before your surgery, if the leave is foreseeable. If the surgery is an emergency, submit it as soon as practicable.”
Timely-Tourist4109@reddit
Recommended, but that is different than required. And I see from OP that this is a moot point anyways.
MarcusAurelius68@reddit
Yes and sadly yes.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
FMLA is great if you're eligible.. I wasn't.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
FMLA requires over one year of employment - didn't have this. Have waited ten months for surgery and could not wait any longer. Figured if I only took one day off it would be workable.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the nuance here! This will help save someone's job in the future...
Yeah, it's all good on my end. I got the surgery after waiting ten months, and I had insurance for it. Anything more is just icing on the cake.
Angelworks42@reddit
I've only worked in one place that required a doctor's note for being sick and it was a call center.
Anyhow it's probably worth talking to a lawyer about it - that call center I saw them fold on this kind of bs by just having a lawyers secretary phone them up with some questions (wasn't me but someone else) I'd think giving them a letter after the fact would be sufficient as well.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting - thank you! Will think about this for sure.
Express-Studio-8302@reddit
Ive never worked at a place with a doctors note policy.
If its not in the employee manual/handbook then I would fight on it.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay this is good to know. Thank you.
spoung45@reddit
You might want to look at FMLA regulations.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/fmla
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am not eligible for FMLA unfortunately... but this is a great reminder for people reading this thread! Thank you!
Ok-Comedian-9377@reddit
I hope you live in an area that has unemployment of some kind.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah - have never tried to get it in this state. Will be educational for sure.
ApprehensiveArt2813@reddit
If your manager was aware of your surgery, he should’ve informed you that a note was required for you to return to work. Sounds like he forgot and is now blaming you. I had surgery last year. No one knew about it because I didn’t want to deal with the gossipers where I work. I didn’t use my painkillers, so I didn’t need to inform medical in case of a random drug test. Had surgery on a Friday, used PTO on Monday and went back to work Tuesday. Luckily I have a desk job (59F).
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That is really helpful - thank you!
Wow, I didn't think about a drug test. I'm pretty boring anyway - don't drink or do anything and actually I didn't take any of my pain meds either - they never did what they were supposed to do (learned that with wisdom teeth) so I just deal.
I've definitely learned not to say a word about anything other than just medical leave. Hopefully that will be the takeaway for others learning from this thread.
I was hoping for a Friday appointment too - that would have been the dream. I only had a Weds option.
I am really glad to hear about your experience. It gives me hope.
bumuser@reddit
This sounds like something that would happen in an anti-abortion state. Essentially, provide proof you didn't get an abortion or get terminated.
GenX-ModTeam@reddit
No Politics - Political posts or comments of any sort are not permitted. If you wish to have political discussions, you may do so on our other sub r/GenXPolitics.
Breaking this rule may result in bans, either temporary or permanent.
Before you make the claim: No, providing respite from political discussions does not infringe on your rights.
Also, this politics ban was put before the sub over a year ago, and members have spoken.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Funny you should put two and two together..
ThatOldDuderino@reddit
Sue. Get a lawyer show them your employee handbook & all the information about your leave (emails, text, whatever you’ve got) and sue! This is not frivolous as they’re rewriting policy around your abilities & their lack of communication.
rcook55@reddit
I had surgery in early '25 and was on short-term disability and FMLA. I absolutely needed a note and a whole return to work plan signed off by the Doc and HR before I could come back to work. In your case that's just shitty.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Ok thank you, really appreciate you sharing this.
rcook55@reddit
The best part is that the short-term disability got the date for return wrong, paid me an extra week or two that I then had to pay back. I called them out multiple times that the date was wrong and they didn't correct it. It was a pain in the ass. It all got sorted and I have to say all the thanks to my HR dept. they really stepped up and helped me out, which I know is not the norm in these days.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am so glad it worked out for you - honestly.
golfingsince83@reddit
Same for me back in February
FAx32@reddit
I can only tell you what I know from the physician side, but the number of businesses with absolutely insane return to work policies is pretty high.
I frequently have to fill out multiple page disability forms because the patient took 1.5 hours off work to go to a 30 minute appointment, otherwise their HR policy is that they cannot come back. No surgery, no mind altering meds given.
I think this happens as a knee jerk reaction by HR departments to stop their employees from lying to them and saying they have a doctors appointment - this is the "doctor's note". My role is patient advocate so I am going to try to fill out that form when I have time, but I truly wish there was a way for doctors to stand up and say "stop" with the bureaucracy and wasted time that is created with this without getting a bunch of my patients fired.
I also frequently get blank ones from patients with no explanation. You have to tell me what you need or think you need. I don't know what your work demands automatically nor the working conditions there that you are running up against. I am almost guaranteed to fill it out wrong unless you tell me "this was for my mole removal, my employer requires documentation that I was there and can go back to work" or "I need accommodations at work because I can't sit for 8 hours due to X, but I think I can do this if you agree _____".
Forms like this are the bane of my existence because by the time employees figure out they need it, they usually needed it 3 days ago and they always seem to send them to us on the first day of me being out of the office covering the hospital or taking a couple of days off.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This really helps, thanks. I thought about showing my 6-inch incision and my body which looks like I came out of the tumble dryer, but thought better of it..
Yeah, the system we work in over here could use a little help for sure.
I feel for everyone involved.
I'm also sure, as you mention, many people need this stuff and have no idea what is necessary, creating more work than necessary and also creating the loophole of not getting documentation required to prevent auto-termination.
Appreciate your insights so much.
FAx32@reddit
Honestly, it is HR malpractice to not tell employees this stuff both generally when they start and individually when their supervisor learns they need time off for medical reasons. They should also have simplified forms rather than me having to tell the employer that they are released to go back to work after a routine checkup by filling out a federal standardized disability form that is meant for an injury or surgery, not a blood pressure and lab check,
Any company with an auto-termination policy is one I wouldn't want to work for. Tells me they don't value people, and the fact that we are all human, at all. Seems like they are just using this as a guise to fire people they wanted to fire anyway but just didn't have a good reason until this opportunity arose.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Appreciate this - my gut leans this way as well.
Prestigious-Curve-64@reddit
Similar situation for me. My doctor had filled out the paperwork for me to be out for 3 weeks. Return date was on the original paperwork. Imagine my surprise when I came back in and they told me I couldn’t work without another set of paperwork clearing me to return. It was very silly, but I was able to keep my job.
National-Evidence408@reddit
I was out on medical leave / short term disability FMLA. There was paperwork to be out and also paperwork to return back to work (eg doctor office saying I was now good enough to return to work). Most of the paperwork was to the insurance company, but my company HR helped me navigate. My manager wasnt involved at all. I didnt think they would fire me while I was out but it was still good to have FMLA protection. What sucked was we get unlimited PTO and sick leave but because this was short term disability I received no pay and had to pay COBRA. All that financially sucked - I didnt have short term disability but it wouldnt have covered everything. I did have long term disability coverage but I wasnt out long enough. 🤪
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is good to know - especially for folks eligible for FMLA! Thanks so much for sharing this!!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting.. I'm curious whether this was familiar to other folks at your work (later, if it came up in conversation?)..
Prestigious-Curve-64@reddit
Yeah - it’s a hospital, so it is very…bureaucratic. As I was ranting, my coworkers empathized - they had been through the same baloney.
Thing is - I DID come back before submitting that “release” form, and theoretically could have been terminated for that if they had wanted to get rid of me, since I was technically working “off the clock” even though I’m salaried. The issue being that I am an RN, so if I’m not “clocked in,” it could be argued that I’m practicing outside of my scope of practice.
They didn’t want to get rid of me, though. I may be a crusty old broad, but I have a lot of relevant experience, which is appreciated by my patients, coworkers, and MDs. Management, not so much.😅
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Really appreciate your sharing this, thank you. What a world we're in... I do believe it helps to share these stories. At the very least people have more info to strategize when they need to have surgery and work has to authorize time off.
Prestigious-Curve-64@reddit
It’s a damn mess, honestly! I have to fill out those awful forms all the time for my patients. Two tips: 1 - when your employer says they faxed the forms to the provider…they usually did not. Make them send the form to you, and you send them to the provider. 2 - as the other commenter mentioned, please, please, please fill out your portion before sending to the provider. If you have specific dates in mind, pretty please let us know! The number of times I have had to redo those evil things because the patient didn’t tell me specific dates they needed are…too many.
Unless you are obviously trying to game the system (super rare for patients, not quite as rare for caregivers, but still rare,) we are generally happy as a clam to say you need whatever time off YOU feel you need.
When I had my knee replacement surgeries, I was hella tempted to just fill those obnoxious things out myself and give it to the surgeon or PA to sign. And they probably would have been fine with it, but I felt weird doing that, so I gave em the forms blank.
ALSO! I have never requested FMLA unless I wanted the hours to come out of my “sick” bank of PTO. And it has to be at least a week or something like that for the sick pay to kick in. But we also are allowed to flex our schedules (within reason,) and my boss is big on work-life balance, so we are spared some of the irritation dealing with that BS.
I am very mad at your boss, and I hope you can sue.🤬
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting.. Okay. Well in my case no forms were necessary to my knowledge.
I don't have FMLA. I had one day of sick leave - so I had surgery I had been waiting ten months for and planned to return the next day, as management was aware (and approved in advance).
Mainly focusing now on recovery which is going well, and being grateful I had insurance for it.
Having my health is better than having a job at this point, since I see I had to choose.
Also this thread will definitely help others to navigate these waters. I hope others can save their jobs as a result!
SXTY82@reddit
I'm Gen X and I've worked at places that require a doctor's note if you are absent 3 days in a row. That has been a pretty common policy in manufacturing. I've lived and worked in 3 states and all companies I've worked at have had similar polices.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this. How about for only one day, though?
SXTY82@reddit
I've been out 1 or 2 days with no note and no problem.
Honestly though, it sounds almost like you were set up to be fired.
You scheduled 1 day, they told you to take 2 and then demanded a note. Complained when you showed up and wouldn't give you a few days to produce the note.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is logically what comes to mind for me as well. It helps to hear your perspective - I feel less paranoid.
Own-Pop-6293@reddit
Jesus christ what country did this happen in?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
United States.
midamerica@reddit
Hugs to you from Ohio. Similar happened to me and it's horrible feeling to be let down like that. Horrible. 5 years later and I still cry when think about it. Seriously, hugs to you and will keep you in my prayers. My advice--lots of chocolate numbs it a bit.
Of course it's US! Supposed to be the greatest country in world, but those in charge forget who does the actual work around here.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this - I am so sorry this happened to you too. I will gladly stock up on chocolate.
Meanwhile I am recovering well and had insurance for the surgery I waited ten months to get on schedule - so beyond that a job is icing on the cake.
We have nothing if we don't have health, no kidding.
Poke-a-dotted@reddit
Yes, that is a thing. Usually communicated by mgmt when scheduling. FYI, same for kids in schools. We are supposed to have a clearance letter for return.
ChaosRainbow23@reddit
It's so crazy with schools nowadays.
When I was a kid a parent's note was plenty.
Now you have to take your kids to the fucking doctor every time they have a fever or feel under the weather. It's absolutely absurd.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Oh boy. That sounds like a lot to have to deal with - particularly since it's not a one-time thing.
ChaosRainbow23@reddit
It's a real pain in the butt. It wastes SO MUCH MONEY. It makes the pediatrician constantly packed.
There's no reason to run to the doctor every time you have a cold or whatnot, for fuck's sake!
I even wrote a scathing letter to the school board, but they never responded. Lol
So many kids are on Medicare. I feel like it's a racket between the schools and the doctors. /s
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Oh man. Such a bummer and I wish there were an alternative!
ManageConsequences@reddit
For federal employees, if we're out for 3 days, we need a provider's note to return.
Many many companies emulate how the federal government handles HR situations, so 3 days is pretty common in industry too. There will always be companies that require a note after a shorter or longer period of time though. And of course there will be some that don't require one at all.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this. In my case it was one day.. so would that still apply since I tried to come to work the next day?
ManageConsequences@reddit
I think you probably need legal advice. You might want to post it over there.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
No, this thread is only so I can learn how many people have heard of this. I don't need legal advice.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay, thanks for this. Appreciate you sharing here.
dram3@reddit
I know about the doctors note before returning to work.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this - appreciate that.
_Losing_Generation_@reddit
Same, it's pretty self explanatory really. If you need a note to take you off work, you need a note to release you back to work.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I didn't need a note for one day of sick leave. So I had no idea I would need one to return to work.
workswithpipe@reddit
I just tell the boss that I won’t be in and they say see you when you’re back. Occasionally they will ask if I’m doing anything fun.
sharp-calculation@reddit
While I don’t doubt this doctors note policy that everyone is talking about, it’s not my experience. I’ve been in the workforce for more than four decades. I have never once had to show a doctor’s note.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I learned this for sure! Noted!
peachesandsir@reddit
Pretty much everywhere I’ve worked has required a doctor’s note clearing you to return to work after surgery and/or for being out for 3 consecutive days.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay this helps. How about for one day out, like in mu case?
I_Am_Become_Air@reddit
Do you have a copy of the handbook of the employer's rules? If not, grab one via connection or internet. You will need it if you file for unemployment, I am betting.
I had cancer and was out for 2.5 years. I knew I would need a doctor's note to be released back to work. It's a bit different than your ONE day.
As you are in the US, did you happen to run out of coverage under FMLA?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, not a word in it about this.
I hope your situation turned out well..!!
In the US yes, and not eligible for FMLA. That requires over a year of employment.
The ten months I have waited for surgery have been a challenge and I could not put it off any longer as a single person without help at home.
I'm glad I had insurance for the surgery and recovery is going well. And hopeful all the insight in this thread will save some other people's jobs!
CrankyCrabbyCrunchy@reddit
Depends on the job. I worked 40 years in tech and never need a doctor's note to take any sick leave or to return to work. Maybe that's more common for retail and/or union jobs.
Gweveraugh@reddit
I am in tech too. Never had to produce a doctor’s note for anything.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah. I was just thinking about all the different jobs I've had in various industries - we were always expected to be at work no matter what.
According_Today5500@reddit
I think they were just looking for an excuse to fire you. Ageism at work here. My thoughts anyway.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah agree with you. Feels like it.
Cautious_Buffalo6563@reddit
What state?
If CA, appeal immediately. UI benefits are quite generous in this state and the ALJ almost always rules for employee except in most egregious cases.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Rural. WY.
UnderaZiaSun@reddit
You need to move to a state with better labor laws!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Funny story - have had to move states to stay ahead of costs. This was my last state before leaving the country.
mialunavita@reddit
This is shocking. I work for a hospital and recently had a mastectomy. I took a week off, then worked half days for a few weeks. When I had my reconstruction surgery this past January, I figured the recovery would be about the same so I put in for a week off with subsequent half days but it wasn’t at all like the mastectomy —it was super easy with hardly any pain so I ended up not using the vacation I had already booked and just went back to work the following Monday. Couple of things that may factor in here—I am salary aka “exempt” so I don’t have to punch a clock and I’m remote so I don’t actually go to an office. But no one batted an eye about me coming back to work a couple of days after my surgery. Firing someone for wanting to work seems outrageous to me. I would want to see that policy in writing.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this... I am hourly and do have to be in the office daily.
Actually I have worked 9-12 hour days the last two months (no lunches) to accrue enough time to take one day off for surgery.
No alternative - It was 3 hours drive each way, and 5 hours procedure including recovery, and the OR pushed my time 6.5 hours due to other emergencies that took precedence - so I needed the entire day for the surgery.
I am really glad to hear that is how it worked out for you! Honestly and sincerely. Gives me a little hope for our country, actually.
mialunavita@reddit
Man—this is depressing. I’m really sorry this happened to you. I hope you have some kind of recourse. Like surgery isn’t stressful enough!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Hey, for me I got the surgery, am recovering well, and had insurance for it. Compared with my life before surgery, having a job after is icing on the cake. Also, this thread is so informative I am hopeful it will help others keep their jobs.
HemlockGrv@reddit
Probably depends on the type of work. I work in manufacturing and has (major) surgery and needed to be cleared by my own doctor AND have a physical w/ drug screen by a company doctor (local occupational health office). There are liabilities involved.
Even if not a physically demanding position, it makes sense that an employer would want clearance and to ensure you’re fit for work (decision making, handling transactions, not experiencing dizziness, etc.).
All that said, it sounds as if your employer handled this terribly and they definitely should have informed you of their requirements before your time off since they were aware of the surgery. I would think you have a good case for keeping your job or for unemployment benefits. Sorry this happened to you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That makes sense also. For sure - yeah I am just grateful I got the surgery I needed and had insurance for it. Anything else is icing on the cake.
mike30273@reddit
That's insane to me. I've never had to present a doctor's note for anything, except when I was in high-school. I was out for 3 weeks for a surgery/recovery all on my word alone. Sorry you had to deal with that.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good to hear, this helps.
You know, I feel lucky I got the job and was able to have the surgery with insurance.
Anything more than that is icing on the cake really.
mike30273@reddit
Yeah insurance certainly helps. I'm glad you got the surgery you needed
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Absolutely. Yeah. It's a big quality of life improvement. So grateful. It has been a long ten months, man.
Better_Resort1171@reddit
Same here.
Fragrant-Hyena9522@reddit
It's a liability issue. They want to make sure the doctor says you are fit yo work. I remember the Administrator and HR director being escorted out for not having a return to work note. Never heard of anyone being fired. They may have used this as an excuse to fire you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, this is my thinking since there's nothing written to support this.
Leather_Rate_9785@reddit
It's sounds like OP was fired for refusing to stay home after being told they can't work without a return to work form. I agree this company was looking for a reason to fire OP.
wsu2005grad@reddit
I knew I needed to have a Dr note to return
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay, thanks for sharing this. It is really helpful!
wsu2005grad@reddit
As a caveat to that, though, we have a union and it's spelled out in our contract. Additionally, our supervisors and HR have helped us navigate these situations too. If you have none of that support and have never been told, I can see why you wouldn't necessarily know.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Appreciate you. Yeah, have never seen this in any of my jobs (and have been working FT or more for almost 40 years now..)
Angry_GorillaBS@reddit
If you miss work for surgery of course you have to be cleared to return.
If they don't know why you missed work...then you don't need to be cleared.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Interesting.. appreciate your chiming in.. I wonder how many other people know about this.
Angry_GorillaBS@reddit
I mean, any job I've had for 35 years has been this way, so I would think most everybody does. If you're under doctors orders to not work, they'll (begrudgingly sometimes) let you have the time off but they want to make sure you're cleared to return.
Sometimes this is in advance, the doctors note might say you need to be off for 3 days or whatever, you can't even go back sooner without another note because you're supposed to be off 3 days. Otherwise they could get sued if you reinjure yourself or someone else.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good to know, I appreciate you sharing this here. I totally did not expect needing one for one day off.
TheSwedishEagle@reddit
Wait. You were a no show?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I asked for one day of sick leave for the actual surgery. Then I came to work to demonstrate I was ready and willing to work, at which point I was told to go home and not come back before I had a doctor's note saying I can work.
GroundbreakingRip970@reddit
I have always had to have a doctor’s clearance to return to work after surgery, accident, or extended illness. I’ve worked and managed employees in three different states and thought this was standard.
It seems like they should have discussed this with you prior to now.
Also the fact that you’ve worked there since January and already used up your attendance time off sounds like maybe they were ready to find someone more available to be there
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is interesting, thanks. Yeah, could be. It takes 2.5-4 hours each way to see a doctor here, so between getting an appointment and having a second opinion, sick leave goes fast.
Practical_Wind_1917@reddit
Yeah. You do need a doctors note saying your ok to work and what your limitations are after surgery.
I am sure they have you some limitations you needed to have to recover from surgery.
I am on the younger end of Gen X and I know that. I’ve known that since I started working
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Ok thanks for this. It's maybe just crap luck that all of my jobs (and I have had various in various industries) all required me to be at work and not to take time off for any reason... I am hopeful this thread will be informative and save jobs in the future!
DiamondContent2011@reddit
I had pneumonia and was out for 3 months. Couldn't return to work without an authorization from my Dr., but wasn't threatened with termination at all.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Ok this is helpful - thank you so much for sharing.
ReindeerWise5170@reddit
I think it’s becoming more and more common as liability issues continue to rise
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This makes sense for sure. I'm hoping by sharing these stories this saves some jobs moving forward!
this_kitty68@reddit
This is some serious BS. WTAF?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay, so sounding like this is not 'common knowledge' to you either...
this_kitty68@reddit
Nope. And even if this were a policy, the fact the actually enforced it is monstrous. A friend of mine’s ex husband and father of her 3 sons was just killed in a horrific motorcycle accident. She had to go out of state to for two weeks to take care of the funeral, etc. The company she works for paid her for 5 days of bereavement, but when they found out it was her ex and not a “family” member they made her give it back.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am so sorry this happened to your friend - that's awful.
IDontNeedAnotherNqme@reddit
It’s them saving their butts and most companies require one so they aren’t held liable if something happens to you.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That sounds reasonable, and it would have been great if HR or my manager would have let me know this was required so I could have provided it in a timely manner.
abigailblue6@reddit
I work in health care with a demanding job and they required a return to work exam by the hospital's provider after I had surgeries. I hope you see a good ending to this situation.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this - yeah, my happy ending is that surgery went well. Anything beyond that is icing on the cake.
Appropriate_Cow94@reddit
Ding dongs voted in the Right to Work laws all over the country and this is some of the negatives of it.
pumpkindonut123@reddit
Lawsuit
jillsmo@reddit
If it's not in the handbook then it's not a rule
mialunavita@reddit
Exactly this!
Exciting_Agent3901@reddit
My work requires a doctors note if you are out for 3 consecutive days. It’s in the hand book. I’d call bullshit if it’s not in the handbook.
Solid_Muffin53@reddit
Mine did too. They made it very clear how your "return to work" note had to be written.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That sounds entirely reasonable to me.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Awesome. Yeah, I checked out handbook. Nada in there..
blissfulhiker8@reddit
I’m a surgeon. I think maybe 20% of my working patients need me to give them a note clearing them to return to work after surgery, so, no, it’s far from being a universal rule. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much for chiming in! This will help other people who may have to navigate this.
I feel really grateful for the medical team and care I experienced honestly. It went smoothly and I feel pretty good and I at least had insurance to cover it.
Anything beyond that (like having a job) is really only icing on the cake. Have needed the surgery for ten months, so getting the opportunity to have it was everything.
DoesTheOctopusCare@reddit
Did you not tell them you were having surgery until you tried to come back to work? I am wondering if you created a situation with liability because they had no idea how injured or not you would be and therefor didn't want you to be trying to work without that clearance from your doctor.
Also - all my jobs have required a return to work note, but I'm a state employee.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This helps, thanks for that.
I was transparent and said I had one day of sick leave I scheduled for surgery.
Given our rural area I had to anticipate this by working 9-12 hour days with no lunch for the last two months.
popcorn-jalapenos@reddit
An employer may require a doctor’s note for 1 day sick leave, but that’s usually for someone that has shown a pattern of sick leave abuse.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Dude. Okay that is interesting. I haven't been there long enough for that, and I haven't had a lunch in over two months. I work 9-12 hour days.
Mjhjane77@reddit
I have only needed a note when there were precautions after the surgery that impact my ability to do my job. Like a lifting or bending limitation. Also, I work for 4 companies and only one required a note and the other 3 were good with me using my own judgement on when to return.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is helpful, thanks for sharing this. In my case, both the surgical team assured me I had no issue returning to work or doing normal things the next day. Unfortunately no written documentation.
My work is just sitting at a computer.
Far_Designer_7704@reddit
Having worked in safety compliance with my HR dept for the last five years, I’ve only seen this need for a dr note to return to work when the surgery or injury is work-related because it must be documented for workers comp and for OSHA logs. When I myself took time off for a non-work related surgery, my employer didn’t ask for a dr note okaying return to work. That said, any employer can have a policy requiring it, BUT they should make the employee aware of such things as part of the process beforehand.
You may have grounds for wrongful termination if this didn’t happen. You should check all related emails and paperwork first though because ‘fine print’ means they made you ‘aware’ by assuming you read everything.
Dry_Persimmon4642@reddit
I’ve always needed a RTW note from the doctor after 3 days or especially after surgery. Should be in the employee handbook.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right. Thanks for this - in my case I tried to return to work after one day...
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good point. Interesting about it being work-related.. really appreciate you sharing insights on this. Thank you.
Loud_Ad_2697@reddit
I think you likely have a case for wrongful termination. I'm assuming you are over 40 being in this subreddit so you are in a protected class.
WithoutDennisNedry@reddit
What class is that?
deanmass@reddit
Age discrimination, over 40
WithoutDennisNedry@reddit
This doesn’t seem like an age discrimination thing though. At least, not outwardly so. If OP had a younger colleague who had done the same thing but they didn’t fire them, maybe. But they would have to prove a president of such things recurrently happening and prove the younger employees were treated differently than the older ones.
To me, this just sounds like they were looking for a reason to fire OP for whatever reason and they think this is it. I don’t think OP’s employer is very smart though because without this being a written rule in the employee handbook, OP will get unemployment benefits pretty easily for wrongful termination.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
yeah, protected when people know and respect the law... lol
zorblak@reddit
Being in a protected class does not mean you can't be fired, it just means you can't be fired for that attribute. Someone over 40 can be fired for violating company policy, they can't be fired for being over 40.
TrainingLow9079@reddit
Every employer is different. They shouldn't act like it's a common rule. I've never had to provide doctor's notes unless FMLA. Do you have a staff handbook?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yep, nothing in it regarding this.
buzzedewok@reddit
Time to call an attorney.
HumbleYarnDog@reddit
I've had surgery numerous times and have always needed a Released to Return To Work note.
The company HR should have been clear in communicating about that which they obviously were not. I'd keep all communication in print form and file for unemployment.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay this is helpful - thank you!
SorryHunTryAgain@reddit
Never ever heard of this. In fact, i came to work the day after my surgery because they don’t like us taking more than one day off without jumping through hoops to do so.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this.
AuntJibbie@reddit
I knew about it... but for them to fire you isn't right. They should have just sent you home u til you got the letter from the doc.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this... okay this is helpful to know.
yetiduds@reddit
Sounds like age discrimination if its not in the employee handbook
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah kinda. My manager said something about not coming to work if I am physically uncomfortable and I was thinking to myself, I have had so many aches and pains since my mid-forties that is completely unrealistic!
That was my inside voice.
What a wonderful world it would be if we had the luxury of only coming to work if we felt good.
Alternative-Letter36@reddit
I would see an attorney that offers a free consultation.
Expensive-Ferret-339@reddit
If a staff member takes FMLA and/or short term disability a note is required. Otherwise no.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I just took one day of sick leave.
Massive-Ant5650@reddit
That sounds like they don’t understand employment law. If you were out under FMLA and/or short term disability you do need a letter indicating you may return to work, and with or without restrictions. Provided this occurred in the US.
TacosNtulips@reddit
How naive, OP doesn’t seem to know the difference between FMLA, PTO and a 401K, companies have HR and lawyers, they understand employment law, you’re just going by what OP fails to explain correctly.
Equal_Trash6023@reddit
I always laid off while on fmla after the birth of my daughter who just so happened to have open heart surgery at 2 months old.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am so sorry this happened! I hope you are both well and things are better being out of that environment!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yes, the US. Not out for FMLA etc, have not been with the company that long. Just was out for one day.
flowerchildmime@reddit
I mean I knew it but it was cuz I worked a union job and they educated us a lot on our rights and protections. I’m sorry that was dropped in your case. Even a manager shld have been able to give you that heads up.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is helpful - thanks for sharing this!
Unusual_Memory3133@reddit
The general rule 3 is days out before a note is required. They can’t fire you for having surgery. I would contact an attorney. I do also hope you have applied for unemployment.
bluecyanic@reddit
Depends on the company policy. It should be in their handbook. I worked for a company where if you had two or more consecutive sick days, you needed a note to return.
Unusual_Memory3133@reddit
OP states it isn’t stipulated in their employee handbook which means it’s just an arbitrary number thrown out by the manager.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good to know - I appreciate you saying this. Definitely not in the handbook.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah. Definitely unemployment.
Willofthesouth@reddit
You didn't have discharge paperwork? "Things to avoid after surgery".
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
They gave me nothing.
Additionally they did not reach out 24-48 hours after surgery as they said they would in writing.
Again, rural America.
Caliopebookworm@reddit
Many workplaces require a doctor's note to return to work when you have things that may be exacerbated or made worse by returning to work too soon hence opening the workplace up to liability. I read the employee manual at my workplace so when I had follow up for my gallbladder removal, I asked for the note then.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is helpful, thank you for sharing this!!
ccoakley@reddit
Whelp, now I am concerned, I have surgery scheduled next Thursday, and the doctor expects 2 days of recovery (Friday and Monday. I already have a doctor's note). My direct manager wouldn't fire me, but I have no such beliefs about my CIO.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Okay so this is good because you have time to clarify this first. If this thread can save a job then I am happy.
Emkems@reddit
If it isn’t in a written policy everyone doesn’t know. I was surprised I had to bring a dr note to come back from maternity leave even though I’d been cleared several weeks before I went back to work.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Wow, I did not know that was also a thing. Thanks for sharing that!
phlebonaut@reddit
Had health issues since I was 9 years old. So far anytime I had to take off for surgery or health issues I've never had that problem. Only issue i had over the years is not having long term absence insurance and not getting money/salary in for 3 months. Since then most companies pay for that themselves now. But this issue you have seems like they were looking for a loophole to get rid of you. Not sure of your history with the company but when it comes to younger managers today. Most are compassionate but then again they want to seem dominant for their egos.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am seeing that for sure. Thanks for sharing this, I really appreciate what you're saying. And I know it helps everybody when we share stories like this.
NotAnotherThing@reddit
Your workplace is completely unreasonable.
Where I am you need a sick note to 1) be entitled to sick pay, 2) justify time off, and 3) prove you aren't a health and safety risk returning to work.
Here doctor's notes are back dated to the start of an illness and do generally take up to.a week to arrive.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This helps, thanks. When they told me they can't email the note and it had to be faxed or mailed and it would take that long, I was surprised.
Mainly because we get terminated in two days without..
Caloso89@reddit
I think you may want to consult an employment lawyer.
CawlinAlcarz@reddit
They fired you because they're looking for reasons to reduce headcount without having to pay severance and/or unemployment.
Check into your FMLA status and/or check with an attorney about this.
TacosNtulips@reddit
That was not being fired, a no call/no show after two consecutive days means you willingly abandoned the job unless OP is in Montana which is the only state not covered by at-will employment, he had to be on FMLA or short term insurance to return to work, he just doesn’t know how his employment works, boarding employee manuals cover all this but most people don’t bother.
VanceAstrooooooovic@reddit
I don’t think Ild want to work in a place that does that
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
100% agree.
Substantial_Net9923@reddit
Wisdom Teeth?
Is this an amazon warehouse jon? - If so you know the rules.
What Parrish could you possibly live in that doesnt have a doctor in 2 hours drive?
Quelltherumors@reddit
I'm not OP, but I use to live in an area on the Southern Oregon coast where you could have to drive a few hours to see a doctor. If you are seeing a specialist they would be 4-6 hours away.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yep.
Substantial_Net9923@reddit
So you live in Southern Oregon? With your post history I think its closer to Islamabad.
Substantial_Net9923@reddit
Ok same question to you...
What township or unincorporated community do you reside in that requires a 3+ hour drive to see a doctor? Not a specialist...a doctor
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Rural America is losing more and more of its medical care as hospitals etc are shutting down.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I moved here from a place with Parishes, so I appreciate those! I live in a state with a population density of something like 8 humans per square mile.
cuzwhat@reddit
Depending on how old you are, and how quickly they replace you (and how young they are) you might have an age discrimination claim to chase down.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Good point. The other job like mine, it took them five months to hire someone. We just don't have enough people in town I guess.
Signal-Ad9276@reddit
That’s exactly what I was thinking!
International-Okra79@reddit
This sounds absolutely bizarre. I’ve had surgery and had no problems getting time off from work. HR helped me get the STD paperwork taken care of so I was able to keep getting a check. They even had no problem giving me time off for rehab.
I know you say it’s not worth the hassle but have you tried looking for a job lately? People over 50 have been waiting forever to find work. It’s certainly worth a phone call. Were you on some type of pip before this happened? It’s certainly possible you work for an awful company but a lot of places would still work with an employee before getting rid of them. You should still be able to collect unemployment if you were fired for this.
Brilliant-Onion2129@reddit
My last job search was 5 days. I had another interview and another offer. Took the first offer. Blue Collar!
International-Okra79@reddit
I think it depends on the field. I used to program industrial automation equipment. It was great for many years until it got outsourced to overseas. Then the only jobs I could find were jobs that I’d be on the road for weeks at a time. I did that when I was younger. Living out of a suitcase gets old. So I’m working for the municipal government now. Waiting for my 65th birthday so I can collect my pension.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Dude. Similar here. I was excited to get my municipal job for that reason..
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Long live blue collar! Most of my career.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right.
Yeah, I have no issue working. I do not want time off.
I would prefer to be allowed to work.. this is the issue for me, honestly.
And I know, it is hard to find a job.
It is also (in my case at least) illness-creating to be in a work environment where they want you out.
So no, not worth compromising what is left of my health here.
Cop_Cuffs@reddit
✅️💯 I was injured at work. On light duty ~9 months or so before they said I had to have surgery if I was to keep my job. The day after surgery I was told I had 2 weeks, ~ being nice, until the end of the month, to find new employment. The company insurer said I was no longer insurable.
Bob_12_Pack@reddit
I hope you got a nice big settlement for the lawsuit you hopefully filed.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am so sorry to hear this.. I am really hoping things are better for you in some way after leaving a place like that. That absolutely sucks and is wrong.
flowerchildmime@reddit
I hope you had a good workers comp attorney 🫶🏼
Sam9517@reddit
I would cross post this in the r/AskHR subreddit and mention what city and state this is in since employment laws differ by location.
regdunlop08@reddit
I would never treat an employee who had surgery like this; being blocked by bureaucracy from meeting a specific rule is not grounds to fire someone in a reasonable workplace.
Too many managers are scared to not adhere to the letter of the law even when doing so lacks common sense. The ability to use judgment is what separates good management from idiots.
Feels like grounds for possible litigation but devil is always in the details with that.
heidiparthena@reddit
This is the most United States post I have ever seen. Lucky us (not).
lacksfocusattimes@reddit
I’m in the UK and it’s shocking.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I'm relieved it's shocking.. that's a good sign.
I remember living overseas in the 90s and speaking with my doctor about some of what we experience in the US, and his response was 'Yeah the US medical system is barbaric.'
Pristine-Lawyer-3260@reddit
Look at our president, he's the best of American business practices. So... It makes sense.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Dude seriously. Can't make this shit up.
Federal-Membership-1@reddit
Lawyer.
WithoutDennisNedry@reddit
File for unemployment. Without a written rule to fire you under, that’s wrongful termination.
SaltyDogBill@reddit
After dying from a widowmaker heart attack, my doctor ordered two week no work. After the two weeks, I tried to return to work and got read the riot act. I need a full third party authorization to return to work. That paper work took three weeks.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Oh man, I am sorry to hear this. I hope things are smoother after the paperwork... it sounds like they didn't make that clear before for you either.
Crazy stuff.
Firm_Baseball_37@reddit
Yeah, same thing. Had surgery that I'd communicated with work about well in advance. Returned to work. Was told there was a policy that existed nowhere in writing that said I needed a doctor's note to return.
In my case I wasn't fired. I was forced to burn through all my sick days while waiting for a note, and later quit because I worked for assholes. (This was one incident out of many, and the people responsible are currently facing multiple federal discrimination suits, which they deserve to lose.)
You were sent home, though, and then fired for going home. Odds are, you've got grounds for a lawsuit.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Rad. Thank you for sharing this.
No-Lock6921@reddit
Sorry that is really shitty, I had emergency surgery and was out for 10 days last November, no note asked for or provided.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this. Appreciate you.
Axereaver@reddit
If you've been employed there for a year or longer you qualify for Family Medical Leave. This is a Federal program. It protects your job while you are out on a sick leave or to care for someone who is sick. There's paperwork to fill out by the doctor and yourself. You have time to be able to get it filled out, too. I believe you have somewhere between 14-30 days AFTER the event that caused you to be out of work to get the paperwork completed and approved.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I've only been at this job since Jan. I could not put tje surgery off any longer - it has taken ten months to get it approved.
Yours_Trulee69@reddit
So you are not eligible for FMLA which would protect your job until your designated return date on the forms with no call in required. Since you told the company that you were having surgery ahead of time, this likely put them in a position where they have concerns that you are able to complete the job function without injury and is why they required the return to work release from the doctor. Because you weren't protected by FMLA, then you should have continued to call out each day until you were cleared by the doctor as it is considered an absence at that point. If you failed to call in for 3 consecutive days then they used their no call/no show policy to terminate you with cause.
Although I don't think that you have any legal course of action, you may want to post this in the legal sub to see what response you get.
Oriencor@reddit
Twelve days. Went on FMLA in February
MrsQute@reddit
Uh no. Contact a labor lawyer.
I've worked in HR and while a clearance to return notice seems totally reasonable, termination while you are waiting for the RTW seems super sketchy.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Rad. Thanks for letting me know.. no one mentioned any note would be required and I've had several interactions with my manager and HR over the last month when this could have been brought up to me.
ancientastronaut2@reddit
Is any of that documented via email?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Sure. But at this point the job is not worth saving.
ancientastronaut2@reddit
You're not trying to save it dude. You're trying to get a wrongful termination settlement!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Dude. Will consider.
jjillf@reddit
But are they worth suing?
endlesssearch482@reddit
The cost of attorneys fees. A cheap attorney is $150 an hour.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
In a small town? everything.
Seriously. Not worth it.
MrsQute@reddit
When it comes down to it, they told you to return when you had documentation and then termed you for not showing up - when they told you not to.
They can't have it both ways.
kittybuckmeow@reddit
Since it was surgery, did you apply for FMLA? That would have put you in a protected status.
ancientastronaut2@reddit
Can you do that for something so short term??
kittybuckmeow@reddit
Yep! I strongly suggest doing this for any medical procedure because you don't know what's going to happen. Especially if you are out of PTO (which it sounds like OP was)
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, in a rural environment it takes two months to accrue enough for one medical appt due to drive time and long waits.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
No, I only had the one day I could use to have the surgery out of state. The surgery team assured me I would be fine to work the next day.
Also, HR was clear when I started FMLA only applies to people who are employed for one year or more.
kittybuckmeow@reddit
Oh! Yes, you have to be employed for 12 months before you qualify.
_fidel_castro_@reddit
Sue those mfs
Cautious_Income7311@reddit
In the 90s I was fired for coming back to work. I literally had all the paperwork, was bit through the wrist by a dog, left hand was unusable. Work called and told me my work was backlogged and to get in and fix it. Got fired for going in, after I was called to come in. This is BS workaround to fire employees management does not want. It doesn't matter how well we do. If there is a personality conflict, which mine was, I am not a sycophant, they get rid of you. Being a gen X I would of thought you would if seen this before.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is my first time with the surgery scenario - but yeah of course this is textbook.
My main question here was how many other people are aware of such a rule, just because I am super curious.
I mean, I've lived in many different states and one other country, and have made friends in many places, and this was completely new to us.
So wanted to ask here too to widen the dataset.
Cautious_Income7311@reddit
Like others are saying, it's just an excuse. I'm not even sure how far you can get with this. On one hand, take a day off, do not tell details. On another hand, you did share, and return to work orders from Drs are necessary. This is part of CYA (cover your ass). Best of luck. I am not a lawyer, so maybe those that say reach out to one, may be a good idea. When mine happened in the 90s, it just taught me a lesson. I was young and didn't even realize that lawyer was possible.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is interesting - 90s, eh? Yeah. Making a note never to mention the word 'surgery' again at employment.
Ok-Internet8168@reddit
Not uncommon for employers to require something in writing from the doctor before allowing you to work, It is both to protect you from getting hurt and them from getting sued if you do get hurt. Like if someone breaks their wrist over the weekend and shows up with a cast at work on Monday, we would send them home until they can bring a doctor's note telling us exactly what they can and cannot physically do, i.e. not lift anything over 20 lbs with that hand for 4 weeks. After that, we determine whether we can accommodate that restriction or whether it would either be too risky or too disruptive to the workflow. This is in an office environment, I expect it would be much more restrictive in more physical jobs.
IMO, you should not be in danger of termination because they told you to stay home until you get the note to clear you to come back. If you are actively working to get the necessary paperwork and they still terminate you, then you might be able to convince a judge that it was unfair. The main thing is to make a good faith effort to communicate and do what they are asking you to do. Going back in and trying to work when they told you to stay home does not help your case.
Milesaway0268@reddit
Did they fire you for coming to work after surgery or for “escalating” the situation?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
No idea. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to return to work, so coming in could have done it. It supplied the excuse for sure.
Of course I'm in the job to WORK, is my thinking.
How the af was I supposed to know not to come in when I was scheduled to work?
I'm not a mind reader.
fry-something@reddit
It’s no-show no-call = termination usually. You talked to them. They were aware. You scheduled the first day for the surgery. They told you to stay home the second day. Was all this in email? Your communications?
Call a lawyer ;)
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yep.
Fun-Distribution-159@reddit
what do you have in writing regarding the time you took off and what you would need to bring back with your upon your return?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
No requirements documented for my return to work. Nada.
Brilliant-Onion2129@reddit
You were fired for not showing up (no-call, no-show) most places allow 3 days. If you were fired for having surgery you would have an excellent argument for the courts. If they didn’t communicate the Dr. note requirement and you have that in documentation you could have legal recourse. Otherwise if it is final start looking!
The_Original_Miser@reddit
Exactly my thought. Does OP know any local lawyer? I'm normally not the litigious type, but this seems like it was done on purpose or dare I say premeditated....
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, definitely. I think someone else is in line for my job.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, this case it's the employee showing up and being told to leave because no doctor's note was asked for or provided in time
toiletcleaner999@reddit
Call am employment lawyer. They cannot fire you for following rules theyve set out.
nativebutamerican@reddit
Seems they said get the rtw and then return but instead he tried to return without the release. So they fired for that. It would seem that if he just stayed home til the note came or went back to get it ... he'd have been fine.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
No, actually I was not told I needed anything to return to work until AFTER I returned to work..
Fun times..
nativebutamerican@reddit
I was confused at how you stated that they told you but went in to demonstrate you could work. So youre saying you had surgery, which they knew about beforehand. They told you to take 2 days off. You went back to work the next day but was told you needed to be released by the doc and fired you then and there? Or you got there and was told needed a release but you fought with that proposal so they said fuvk it then and youre fired? Or after surgery you said you would be back but they said no stay home til you have the release but you went back to demonstrate you could work?
Im xennial/og genx/ 1st year millenial and known about doc release since my 1st real job in the 90s
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
So it's sounding like this isn't common practice, from what I gather here. I have yet to see anyone writing they're familiar with this scenario?
ancientastronaut2@reddit
Yes, I have heard of companies requiring a clearance from your doctor to return after surgery, but never firing someone for having to wait for the note. Especially if they didn't make that clear when you requested the sick time.
I wouldn't have told them in the first place if you were only missing a day or two. It makes them start to wonder if you have ongoing health issues (as much as that sucks). I would have just called in sick or had a "personal emergency" and taken some pto.
Either way, employment lawyers usually offer free consultations and work on contingency. So gather whatever you have and visit one to see if you have a case.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Argh. Yeah, good point. I didn't think I had to hide having surgery. But I should have known, given the country we live in.
Have never had it before, so had to learn the hard way, I guess.
Hopefully this helps others strategize better in the future!
toiletcleaner999@reddit
If they were aware of the surgery and require documentation for you to return to work, they cannot fire you if it takes time to get said documents. If that firing holds sue for wrongful dismissal
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
That sounds logical to me.. so much lately has been illogical.
eat_a_burrito@reddit
Ask the manager to show you where the rule is written.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Will do, for entertainment purposes. Great idea, thanks.
fattfreddy1@reddit
It’s clear your company wanted to get rid of you anyway, this was just a good excuse for them. They could have easily worked something out for you for your surgery, they just didn’t want to. I had knee surgery in February and I told my company I was going to have it. Booked 3 weeks off came back after 3 weeks and carried on. They didn’t even ask for a doctors note.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, that's what time it is.
KnoWanUKnow2@reddit
Thank god that the USA got rid of their unions so that things like this could happen.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yeah, rip..
xTiredSoulx@reddit
I got written up for waking up with strep, calling in way before my shift, and seeing a doctor back in December. They “ don’t take doctor’s notes” I hadn’t earned any time off, they had no sick leave. I needed to give notice (72 hours) and that’s why i got written up. Health insurer call center in the US. I quit after that, and I’m still sick, can’t work.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I am so sorry this happened - that is awful. And thanks for sharing this. I think it's really important to share what is happening. And it's a real shock to find your health so impacted that you can't work. I have been there.
It does seem like if people haven't experienced that yet, it can be hard to imagine.
forgetful_waterfowl@reddit
from what i've heard, you're better off not being in a call center because they sound like legalized slavery
Future-Worker-9438@reddit
Dan Goodman on LinkedIn. He helps with cases like yours.
dfin25@reddit
The question is, why haven't you burned this establishment to the ground and kicked your former boss's ass?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Not worth my time.
Murky_Possibility_68@reddit
But it was worth your time to post.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right, my post is specifically asking people to share whether they were aware that we need a doctor's note to return to work.
That's at the end of my post.
Winter-eyed@reddit
Don’t play their games. Get a labor lawyer and document everything you can in writing
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Definitely no games. I prefer to move on. Life is too short for games.
SunshineAlways@reddit
Unless you already have another position lined up, or can afford early retirement, a lot of qualified people are having a hard time finding a position. As others have said, might want to get a lawyer.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Not in a town this small. It would prevent me ever being rehired.
SunshineAlways@reddit
My sympathies, I grew up in a very rural area, but what if there’s not another job?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Then it's time to leave the country.
Rredhead926@reddit
This may not be legal. What state do you live in?
There is no one, universal rule that one has to have a doctor's note to return to work after surgery. I don't know what your manager is talking about. I write reference materials for Human Resources, specifically for California labor law. You might want to try adding the following context and posting in r/AskHR
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Wyoming - where I've been told I can't have access to my own medical records ('they're copyrighted') - have also been told this in Montana, fwiw.
Removal of a mass which does not impact my ability to drive or lift loads, etc. I was cleared immediately for return to work - it's just nobody wrote a note saying as much.
My work is a municipal job where I sit at a computer all day. Sure, that can be tiring. But computers at our age can be tiring whether we've had surgery or not.
Rredhead926@reddit
Medical records are not "copyrighted." That's absurd. A quick search brought this up:
Also this link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/regulations/wyoming/052-3-Wyo-Code-R-SS-3-4
Do you have an HR department? What you're saying makes no sense from a legal standpoint.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Agree with you 100%. As someone who has spent my life in many metro areas, including the gargantuan LA City and County, I am only too aware.
Just mentioned that as an example of some of what comes up in a rural environment. There is a very wide range of competence out here.
Rredhead926@reddit
If HR won't help you navigate this, then I think you need to consult an employment attorney. Many will do free consultations.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Honestly not worth the environment which would ensue as a result.
ryamanalinda@reddit
It might not be worth it for you for whatever reason you may think is small. But it would possibly prevent someone else going through what you did
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
I think if I had less to lose, and more energy, and it were just me, then maybe.
But fighting back takes a lot, and I am going to need what energy I have for the next plan.
MI6Monkey@reddit
First: I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
You are legally required to have access to your Protected Health Information (PHI) at the federal level. You have rights under HIPAA that protect your legal right to access your records. Facts cannot be copyrighted, so stuff such as blood pressure, diagnoses, labs, and prescribed meds cannot be copyrighted. It seems doctors and medical administrations are using copyright laws to keep patients from seeing diagnostic notes like surgical narratives or complex consultations out of the patients' hands. It doesn't take a big leap to see the "you can't sue me for malpractice if you cannot see anything I have written about you" ass-covering here.
As far as letting you go, it honest to god sounds like they were looking for a reason to let you go and orchestrated it from their end using your surgery and miscommunication to pad the HR process. Wyoming is a right-to-work state, which pretty much means you are screwed.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
This is exactly my take. Appreciate you.
ByronScottJones@reddit
You need to speak to a labor attorney about wrongful termination, and likely agree discrimination.
Sea-Louse@reddit
The bullshit is alive and well.
anonskier@reddit
I know it’s not helpful now, but your situation is what FMLA prevents. You can use FMLA independent of disability for short term situations like yours. If you are eligible and your FMLA is approved they can’t terminate your employment. Is it possible the terminated you due to your age? Ageism is a real thing these days. I wish you the best. Good luck.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Totally possible.
Lumpy-Artist-6996@reddit
Just saw your post below, and it doesn't look like you'd qualify for fmla since you've only been there five months.
Info: after you contacted the clinic for the clearance, have you've been in contact with your supervisor regarding additional missed days?
Do you have any other issues, missed days? Your employer may be using this as a reason to part ways.
In answer to your original question, post covid, I've noticed that not only my employer but others have been pretty rigid in requiring doctor clearance for any illnesses of three days or longer and any surgeries at all. Major cya for the company.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Yes exactly - re. FMLA.
I have been working 9-12 hour days with no lunch for two months in order to accrue enough time to take a day off for this surgery.
So no, no missed time.
Milesaway0268@reddit
Op states they haven’t been there 12 months so wasn’t eligible.
Slipstream_Surfing@reddit
Wondering what kind of medical professional would attest to patient being eligible for FMLA if patient was, by their own admission, willing and able to return to work one day after a minor medical procedure (or Surgery, to use OP's terminology)..
FlexyZebra@reddit
Post this is r/legaladvice
sumostuff@reddit
The good old US of A, I assume? Dystopian country
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Dude, ya. How'd you guess? lol
sumostuff@reddit
I guessed because it made no fluffing sense whatsoever and it's completely unfair and inhumane. And the lack of flexibility even when the rule clearly makes zero sense is very American.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
true dat.
Full_Mission7183@reddit
Your manager was aware of the surgery beforehand, I am assuming, I would take the time to find a labor lawyer who will do a free intial consult.
I know most of the states are at will, but you were essentially fired for being sick, that feels like damages to me.
But I only play a lawyer on Reddit.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Not of the specifics, just that I was having surgery.
Yeah, I don't have the energy for that.
I'll be fine.
Just glad it's the beginning of the month - so whatever medical ensues, I have the month of coverage left.
ancientastronaut2@reddit
Dude you could get a nice payout.
Full_Mission7183@reddit
You do you, but you don't get a chance to stick it to the man very often.
HikingInTheSunshine@reddit
There’s this law called FMLA which should prevent this.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
FMLA only applies after you work somewhere for over a year.
Greenearthgirl87@reddit
If the company is relatively small, FMLA does not apply.
XanaxWarriorPrincess@reddit
My former employer had a rule that if you missed 3 days without calling out they assumed you quit.
You should talk to HR and see if you can file it under FMLA (thanks Bill Clinton). FMLA requires 3 days missed and a certain number of days worked, which I'm sure you have (basically more days worked than missed). It's paperwork for the doctors, most of whom charge $50 or so to do.
FMLA can be filed retroactively. I think you have 2 weeks to file it. I usually filled out the form and had my doctor sign it, but your doctor might prefer to fill it out. LMK if you need help with it.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Right. I know folks who have been fired for not returning the day after surgery, so I made sure to document in writing that she encouraged me to take a second day off. But I came in the second day after surgery.
jjillf@reddit
I assume no FMLA. But per the department of labor, a manager should notify an employee if their potential FMLA rights within 5 business days of learning of a qualifying absence. If your manager knew you were having a medical procedure and did not do this, they screwed up. If they took that opportunity to fire you, I feel like that’s egregious.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Nope. Haven't been there a year yet.
ancientastronaut2@reddit
I feel like they're using this as an excuse. At least that's what my spidey senses are saying.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Me too.
ChickChocoIceCreCro@reddit
I have questions
Exciting_Pass_6344@reddit
So, so many questions
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Don't we all though lol
rjwut@reddit
Honestly, I have little patience for bosses that demand a doctor's note for just a couple of days off. That sort of thing is appropriate if you're managing a bunch of teenaged fast food workers, not a team of professionals. My company only asks for documentation if you're using long-term leave. For just a couple of days, your word is good enough.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
You'd think...
AssistanceChemical63@reddit
I think the Millenial is gaslighting you. The surgery center discharge papers should be enough evidence. It seems like ageism.
titianqt@reddit
Ageism or a manager determined to get rid of OP on whatever flimsy pretext. Or both.
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Possible.
Wrong_Pen6179@reddit
This sounds horrible! Did you try reaching out to HR directly and bypassing your manager? Do you have any paperwork post surgery that says no restrictions? Maybe you can use that prior to obtaining the note? Also can you try contacting the surgeon’s office direct or your primary doctor? Did you receive a formal termination letter? I would fight this tooth and nail on principle alone and in parallel look for another job.
Hope your surgery was a success at least!
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Oh for sure, it went very well. Really thankful for that, at least. HR is on vacation this week.
I always have a Plan B and a Plan C.
What irks me is the backhandedness of it.
QuarrieMcQuarrie@reddit
Jeezus H. US employment is so baffling. How long have you worked there?
Maleficent_Gur5924@reddit (OP)
Not long - since January. Have had to wait ten months for this surgery.
NeighborhoodNo4274@reddit
This sounds like a good question HR or a lawyer.
ave427@reddit
New to me. Sorry that happened.