Balkan Cultural Spheres: do you agree with my map, what would you change?
Posted by freddo_expresso@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 138 comments
Posted by freddo_expresso@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 138 comments
emuu1@reddit
This is just subjective stereotypes and the irrational human urge to categorize stuff that can't be categorized neatly.
Competitive-Ad1439@reddit
Especially something as complex as culture. Most of the places on this map would best be categorised as multicoloured
Substratas@reddit
He wants us to know he’s Southern European, not Balkan. You should hear it every day. 💀
the_TIGEEER@reddit
The human urge to make everything one dimensional black and white when almost nothing really is..
One-Photograph8443@reddit
Comment of the day, please stop over categorizing everything and everyone
the_TIGEEER@reddit
Culturally? Definitely not? I understand that people in Slovenia and out of Slovenia often argue that Slovenia is not Balkan Geogrpahicaly. Which is true.. Some primitive-minded individuals would say that "Slovenia is not Balkan economically." Which.. What the fuck does that even mean.. Like get your head out of your ass..
But 1 thing that is definitely true and is the reason why you find Slovenians in this very sub is that Slovenia is culturally quite Balkan. Of course, we aren't "As Balkan as some other nations are" But again.. What the f does that mean.. I think Slovenia should be at least a mix of Blue and Green. Definitely not Blue alone.
Barbak86@reddit
Imagine, the dude put all of Croatian Vojna Krajina and Slavonia in the central European sphere....
the_TIGEEER@reddit
Imagine.. that's where I'm from and don't wanna talk for others..
Crazy huh?
Barbak86@reddit
Yeah dude, he missed the mark. Slovenia being central with heavy Balkan influence while Croatia should have pure Balkan and Balkan with heavy central European influence
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
Focus on the Balkans! The yellow part of Anatolia should be labeled as "Mediterranean" instead of "Southern European" :)
Ok-Skill-265@reddit
Same for greek yellow part. Greece honestly is not southern europe, its part of an umbrella from southern italy to lebanon. Like turkey.
low-sikeliot-9062@reddit
You never stop learning on this subreddit...How is Greece not southern Europe?
Greece is definitely both southern Europe and balkans (which is a subregion of southern Europe)
Ok-Skill-265@reddit
Southern european doesnt encompass "mediterranean" like lebanon. European indicates a medieval fractured powers and the german or slavic influence on latin heritage. Greece was part of centralist empires, its journey was never like countries of european civilization, distant to the point that ancient greek works were learned from crusades on muslim landa. Correct term is mediterranean where there is a more geographical kindness and non civil cultural unity.
low-sikeliot-9062@reddit
Lebanon is not an European country, that's correct. It's an Arabic middle eastern country
European means from the European continent. And Greece is definitely located in it. End of the story
Ok-Skill-265@reddit
Post says "southern european culture" not continent. Its very inadequate because turkey and greece arent quite europe. Also I edited my previous comment a couple times.
TheTurkPegger@reddit
We are all pretty much the same shit tbh
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
What exactly do Southern Greece and Dalmatia, let alone Istria and Lika have in common?
pumpasklitas@reddit
Vojvodina in blue makes no sense, maybe very top of it, but even that
Corleone0@reddit
It makes every sense.
pumpasklitas@reddit
ti će mi kažeš, ja sam iz Vojvodine ovde
Corleone0@reddit
So am I sister
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
Due to Austro-Hungarian influence.
SerbianMonies@reddit
Then you should include Belgrade and Zemun.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Vojvodina makes sense
PomegranateOk2600@reddit
Romanian Moldova is also Red.
mortismatis@reddit
yup, Romania has 3 in 1
PlayfulMountain6@reddit
Why Durrës is Balkan and not southern Europe?!
Xitztlacayotl@reddit
I have never been to Greece. What makes one half of it souther, the other balkan? I mean, is there a cultural difference between those parts?
MartinBP@reddit
Those parts of Greece had a significant Slavic population as recently as 1945 and still have Slavic and Turkish minorities. The eastern part, Thrace and East Macedonia, were annexed from Bulgaria after WW1. The culture there is more mountain-focused, climate is more continental like southern Bulgaria, Albania and North Macedonia. More visible Ottoman influence as well in the old towns. Xanthi, Komontini and Kilkis are pretty notable examples.
ChampionshipEven3948@reddit
The Greeks themselves have very significant Slavic ancestry, even the ones from Peloponnese.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
The ottoman influence is more apparent in northern Greece, that’s true. But Greece culturally doesn’t change much across mainland Greece. Greece is very mountainous. If you go to a mountainous village in Arcadia in the middle of Peloponnese and you compare it with one in northern Greece, there isn’t much difference. The only outliers are the Slavic and Muslim minorities as you mentioned that are not Greek and isolated Greek villages in very north-Eastern Greece.
For me as a Greek this map is quite bullshit, although I understand the reason it’s like that. But having extensively traveled and lived in Bulgaria and visited other Balkan countries, I just can’t put northern Greeks in the same category as the other Balkaners
Early-Show2886@reddit
yes the bulgarian speaking Muslims live there (Pomaks) and Turks and muslim Gypsies in western thrace-greece.
baxulax@reddit
Population exchange with Bulgaria in those areas was done in the 1920s.
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
The green part is more continental, more focused on land than sea. Different climate as well, it just feels different. Not all of it of course, that's why it's striped. For example Chalcidice in Central Macedonia is Southern European, a very Mediterranean region.
Kaamos_666@reddit
Also more Slavic ancestral/cultural heritage…
demien_@reddit
Well... a lot of slavs have forcefully or willingly left the north of Greece and settled in todays Bulgaria and North Macedonia after the greco-turkish war and later the greek civil war, and greeks were moved from asia minor to the north of the country, I guess that some greeks actually have some slavic DNA but I don't think it's that drastic when you take this into cosideration
Early-Show2886@reddit
no westhern thrace in greece was exept from population exchange, this is why still a muslim minority (Turks, Pomaks,Gypsies) still live there.
Also the greeks from istanbul and the two islands Imbros and Tenedos was exept to leave.
baxulax@reddit
It’s just a horseshit map
Karamazovakis@reddit
No there isn't, trust me.
milic_srb@reddit
for the northern part as a Serb it feels basically the same as in serbia but with a beach, while the south part seems to look much more european
Early-Show2886@reddit
East Macedonia and Western Thrace in Greece is more balkan, the rest and the islands is southern culture.
pdonchev@reddit
An important note is that those different cultures are not that different to begin with (maybe twhre is a notable gradient from North to South). And that there are no sharp borders but continuous gradient of heritage. Sometimes mix of more than two.
GayOver@reddit
pretty good
Extension-Detail-258@reddit
Finally some sense
GlobalNova@reddit
I’m a Greek islander from the Ionian Islands. The map is probably accurate for us, there’s nothing Balkan about us honestly. I consider myself well traveled and It’s as Southern European as it gets imo.
I would probably suggest moving the green parts a bit further north as well.
Aromatic-Studio-137@reddit
Former Ottoman territories = balkan. Mentally, of course.
Ok_Eagle_3079@reddit
Yellow is wrong.
Better to put Greece and Turkey fully in Green
Substratas@reddit
For those who don’t know yet: u/freddo_espresso is John Delopoulous’ burner account.
Since he was constantly mocked in this sub for sharing such maps that would distance Greece from the Balkans & clump it together with Italy (imagine Crete in the same region as Rome 💀), he decided to create another account just to continue doing this crap.
”John” has severe identity issues because looks down on Balkan people while being Balkan himself, and he can’t help but constantly try to remind us Balkaners that he isn’t a ”Balkaner” but a ”Southern European” instead.
You’re welcome ❤️
low-sikeliot-9062@reddit
oh that explains it
low-sikeliot-9062@reddit
horseshit
Cefalopodul@reddit
Separating Romania makes absolutely no sense.
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
How does it make no sense? Moldavia and Wallachia were more under Ottoman influence, while Transylvania was part of Hungary for centuries and home to Saxons as well.
Cefalopodul@reddit
Because the culture is roughly the same. The dicferences between regions are not significant.
Party-Direction6081@reddit
Wrong. I live in Constanta. I am no Balkaner, dear!
Cefalopodul@reddit
Yes you are. You are 100% Balkaner bot culturally and geographically.
Gold-Improvement5887@reddit
I bet you're from Wallachia
Cefalopodul@reddit
I'm from Crisana actually, right on the border with Hungary.
Early-Show2886@reddit
As you say—Romanian.
But not the minorities.
Neither the Swabians and Hungarians of the Banat are the same as the Turks and Tatars of the Dobruja.
Thus, no shared culture.
OilZestyclose6677@reddit
irrelevant
Early-Show2886@reddit
Likewise, the Banat was under Austro-Hungarian rule until 1918, whereas the Dobruja remained entirely Ottoman until 1877–78.
Early-Show2886@reddit
But surely the Banat isn't Balkan in terms of culture—since when?
As for the Dobruja—well, that one could arguably be considered Balkan.
The_ScarRzZ@reddit
no, the green head in Romania (Romanian Moldova) is eastern also
Party-Direction6081@reddit
In Romania, Moldova I think it`s half Balkan influenced and half Eastern European. It was influenced by the Tatars in the Middle Ages as well.
Business_Project7767@reddit
Theres no spheres. All of this is eastern europe
justiceteo@reddit
a slightly better border for turkey
ATAKURT1453@reddit
this is more accurate
ATAKURT1453@reddit
as someone of 100% balkan descent who was born and raised in turkey it always cracks me up when people who have never set foot in turkey for a single day draw these stupid maps.
never take anyone seriously if they claim a place in turkey outside of east thrace is part of the balkans.
BDP-SCP@reddit
Istria to the far left is a mix between yellow and blue, Southern and Central European. Forget the state borders in Istria, I'm older than those borders.
xoull@reddit
I dont know i feel like the ppl have some balkan flair there nothing italian. And i mean its Titos summer residency :D
BDP-SCP@reddit
You're rioght, there is nothing Italian, but a lot of Venice, check the old town(s) of Rovinj, Poreč or Novigrad or in Italian, Rovigno, Parenzo, Cittanova, in Istria we also have an italian dialect called istro venetian and the istrioto language/dialect. 70 % of Istria was for centuries part of the Venetia Republic.
Brief-Star-9936@reddit
Slovenian coast not yellow? Mkey
Worldly-Ad-2244@reddit
I live in Macedonia, Greece. I have seen plenty of Balkan tourist. Claiming we have more similarities with other Balkane countries and not with rest of Greece just because there are some minorities in some northern border villages is a very big generalisation.
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
As a Southern Greek, when I visited Central Macedonia it looked very different from what I'm used to.
baxulax@reddit
Like what?
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
The nature, climate, architecture, culture... It's just different, not crazy different but surely different.
Worldly-Ad-2244@reddit
Gyros is Gyros , Souvlaki is Souvlaki. Sorry that we call Straws only the ones we use for Coffee here.
Yavannia@reddit
I have visited southern Greece a lot of times as a northern Greek, I even work on an island right now, there is barely any difference with the north.
baxulax@reddit
You can’t get more Balkan in Greece than Athens
supereddy94@reddit
I dont consider greece culturally balkan
Xitztlacayotl@reddit
I can speak for Croatia. The yellow parts are too "rough". But you couldn't go into more detail because the provinces are shaped like this.
I would say that the yellow part is even more thin. Because of the big mountains. Just the coast would be yellow and the western parts green.
_whatever_idc@reddit
Nah, yellow part definitely extends to Dalmatian hinterland. To some extent to Herzegovina as well.
venit_enim_ad_me@reddit
Depends what you consider Dalmatian hinterland... Imotski is culturally same as west Herzegovina, and both were historically heavily isolated and have basically no cultural link to anything apart from Bosnia
_whatever_idc@reddit
There is a blurred line obviously, but not everything behind the mountains is more balkan than italian influence.
I mean you can see how much of Dalmatia Rep. of Venice controlled.
venit_enim_ad_me@reddit
Another group controlling the territory politically doesn't necessarily lead to lasting cultural impact. Croats in general were ruled by Hungarians since 12th century, but there is very little Hungarian cultural influence
venit_enim_ad_me@reddit
yellow part should only really be Istria and Kvarner
Electrical_Till7125@reddit
and islands
venit_enim_ad_me@reddit
really depends on which one
bljuva57@reddit
Lika is definitely more central than southern. And how the hell did you find a map with the old croatian counties. That changed, like, 30 years ago.
rndmlgnd@reddit
All of Croatia is Balkan culture, no matter how hard they try to deny it for some reason.
Macedonianboss@reddit
& Montenegro and Albania
t0ndrra@reddit
make anatolia completely green
JRJenss@reddit
It's alright. What I would change is, I'd put Rijeka county - the one right next to Istria, into central European - Rijeka is a port city but it looks nothing like Mediterranean. Architecture is typically Austria-Hungarian, with perhaps some minor Venetian influences...no more than Ljubljana tho. Gorski Kotar, north of the city and towards the border with Slovenia, is an alpine region, and then parts of the Dalmatian hinterland probably belong into Balkan, however...now that I think about it, everything after 'alright' is just nitpicking really.
RestepcaMahAutoritha@reddit
Moldovan part of Romania (the other half of country Moldova), I would say more Russian influence over Balkan.
One_more_drink_@reddit
I disagree as someone from the Romanian part, people from Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavian countries feel way closer culturally than the Russians or even Ukrainians, maybe people from Northern Suceava might feel different though.
floare_salbatica@reddit
I'm from the region of Moldova too and I alway considered ourselves Eastern Europeans. I really don't get the Balkan hype.
One_more_drink_@reddit
Geographically we are part of Eastern Europe, but culturally that's another thing. Do you really feel closer to a Belarusian than to a Macedonian?
PomegranateOk2600@reddit
I live was born in Dobrudja and later moved in Bucharest and I would say yes even for me. Macedonia feels like a fake Turkey, fake Greece and Fake Bulgaria all combined
amerikani@reddit
From my experience, Albanians are culturally more like the Greeks and Italians than like the Slavic countries around it
MagistarEFUNTZ@reddit
This is joke for Croatia.
Blue parts of Croatia are def green(Zagreb is only who is blue)
Istra is more blue than yellow
Corp-Por@reddit
Yes, this is accurate.
enilix@reddit
Only the Kajkavian parts of Croatia are Central European, Slavonia is definitely more Balkan, as is Vojvodina.
ClowningBad@reddit
As a Romanian for me there's a mix in Romania overall between pan Balkan culture, C-European and some east-euro but I'd call this fairly accurate in that the south and south east/east feels very Balkan while the west/north west/central part is more central european with balkan influences.
nghb09@reddit
The Romanian part of Moldova (not Republic of Moldova) could show as mixed balkan-eastern europe. They actually use a lot of slavic words especially in agriculture (harbuz for watermelon, cucuruz for corn, pivo for beer etc) and share a passion for making compot/kompot.
Lopsided_Summer_5536@reddit
They use păpușoi for corn, cucuruz is used in banat.
Barbak86@reddit
All of the Albanian coastal lowlands are southern European in their core, with Balkan influence.
Ok-Skill-265@reddit
Turkey has significant balkan culture and direct heritage but striping in to green and labeling as balkan culture is misleading. Its like labeling russia as europe. Its a yes and no.
BeginningClue10@reddit
Idk if I would include Thessaly though. Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace are the 'Balkan-vibes' of Greece, I'm not really sure if Thessaly is like that.
shiwonozomu_majochan@reddit
dogshit
Nikoschalkis1@reddit
I don't know what northern Greeks think, but when I drove through the tempi tunnel and I started seeing these wide ass tiled roofs and the flora, it was a whole other country. Then I continued north to NM and even Serbia and I kept seeing these houses. And I've even driven all the way to Thrace, same thing.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
I'd say add Middle Eastern cultural sphere and put most of Turkiye in it.
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
Lol a map of the ottoman empire, after greek independence, before serbian and romanian formal independence
ImportantIncrease564@reddit
Good map, but Caraș-Severin is definitely balkan while Suceava and Botoșani are more eastern european
MMonroe1980@reddit
As a Croat, I see Mediterranean cultural sphere significanly reduced to a very narrow coastline and islands, while the hinterland belongs to ottoman sphere of influence. In fact, apart from the narrow coastline, islands and Istria, most of the country is ottomanized with a few mitteleuropean regions in the northwest.
I-am-Mihnea@reddit
Top right of the Moldovan counties of Romania should be red but even then I think the map would be inaccurate. Blue part of Romania should have green stripes and the part that I said should be red should also get green stripes. The entire region that used to be Dacia is a crossroads of influences. After like 100 AD Dacia became a melting pot of influences, starting with the Romans then Visigoths then Huns, Gepids, Avars and Eastern Roman Empire, First Bulgarian Empire, etc. etc.
Used-Negotiation5129@reddit
Thats just 17th century Balkan Map
Waste-Restaurant-939@reddit
anatolia have definitely fifth colour. aegean and medit coasts of anatolia are mixing of fifth colour-yellow. adriatic coasts are mixing of yellow-green. croatia plains, transylvania, slovenia and north serbia are mixing of blue-green. moldova, moldavia and budjak are mixing of red-green.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
lol.
my island is not shown, so I'm not going to say what I think, of map.
for me, we're "close" to Cyprus (Greek side) & Italy, & that's it.
imborahey@reddit
Novi Sad is much closer to Belgrade culturally than Vienna. Even Zagreb is closer to Belgrade than it is to Vienna. What makes Dubrovnik any different from Kotor? Why is Thessaloniki different from Athens?
You can't pull a line on a map and say these guys are culturally Balkan, and everyone else isn't. It is a gradient, with neighboring regions sharing culture.
epiktwice@reddit
A lot of people here ignore basic geography and weather conditions when voicing out their opinion on this stuff
Early-Show2886@reddit
for turkey only the europan part _ eastern thrace would be balkan but the other you have in green is anatolia, there is no balkan culture there.
Kaamos_666@reddit
Saying this as a born and raised Eastern Thracian, western Turkey would generally cluster with Balkan cultures in my opinion. But the level of Balkanness (if it’s a thing) decreases gradually as you go eastward. I met people from Balıkesir, Bursa, Sakarya etc. They have a Balkan mind.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Me too—and I find our culture from East Thrace to be truly unique; I don't see any resemblance to it anywhere else. Neither the music nor the traditional attire. Thrace is unique—even in the demeanor of its inhabitants and in its language. The Thracian dialect is not found in Anatolia.
ayde bre, beaa
zwiegespalten_@reddit
You could count Bithynia and Ionia too. They both have very high percentage of Balkan Muhajirs
Early-Show2886@reddit
who, however, were barely able to establish a culture of their own there—unlike in Trakya.
freddo_expresso@reddit (OP)
I said focus on the Balkans 🙂
Early-Show2886@reddit
How am I supposed to understand that?
Esdoorn-Acer@reddit
Very accurate
Outrageous_Bison_415@reddit
No. Cuz North Italy is in the yellow zone and it should be in the blue zone (Central European).
Leading-Attempt-7364@reddit
Greece is more yellow in my opinion.
Ill-Dragonfruit4394@reddit
Mer noir oriental culture caucasienne, anatolie culture europe du sud/moyen orient. Les seuls balkanique en turquie sont les cotes egeene thrace et istanbul
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
The part of Croatia next to istra should be hybrid Central European and southern European. Lika and “eastern” dalmacija should be hybrid Balkan and southern.
More of Albania should be southern European, so should coastal Bulgaria, parts of eastern Thrace and Greece to the north.
Otherwise than that yeah it’s a pretty good map.
florinmaciucoiu@reddit
Map made by a bozgor
OilZestyclose6677@reddit
true and real
Whole-O@reddit
Wrong, we learned in school that Bosnia is Western Europe and Greece is sub-Saharan Africa, this map is BS
Croatia of course is Central Europe, and Slovenia is Eastern
OilZestyclose6677@reddit
no, make transylvania green
crivycouriac@reddit
Someone stayed 150 years in the past it seems
Cruel19weakness@reddit
Putting the entire Dalmatian coast into the same category as mainland Greece while leaving the rest of the country in the green zone is a bold move that is definitely going to start a riot.
krisvelde@reddit
Stereotypes