Seeking advice about former employer spreading malicious claims
Posted by Internal_Time8330@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 50 comments
Hello all, this might belong in a legal sub more than flying, but I’m curious what you would do here.
Last year I worked at a flight school for about five weeks, and management had a change up at the end of that period. I met with the new supervisor to mention that I’m noticing unsafe aircraft and major things missing or loose after maintenance inspections. Private meeting. Door closed. Same day as a safety meeting ASKING us what we can do to improve safety at (five letter flight school). He stared at me and acted as though I was an annoyance. He told me that if I have an issue with it, I should complain to maintenance (I’m not doing that, it’s not my place). I thanked him and walked out awkwardly.
(I had several engine partial power fails/complete failures, one engine went kaboomboom on my takeoff roll. Screws in the double digits missing from the engine cowling… etc!)
A few days later, I was terminated without warning and given the reason of “not a good fit for the company”. I had no explanation further. This company did NOT deny my claims for unemployment, and only gave the state the same reason they gave me. No documentation given to me, just get your things and go.
Fast forward to recently as I try to obtain a SF86 security clearance with the US government. The clearance investigator calls me and states what this former employer said about me. He was told that I got into a physical altercation with a student, and that I SPUN an aircraft with a student onboard. Neither of these things happened.
I am now terrified that my aviation career is over and that a security clearance may be impossible to obtain because of the accusation of the physical assault on a student and spinning an aircraft. I had a great relationship with my previous supervisor and never had any formal or informal meetings to discuss my performance.
I have ALL student names that I flew with while at the school, and police were never contacted, which you would think would happen if I physically assaulted a student. I have ADS B data for each flight and there is no display of a spin happening.
How do I effectively STOP someone that held power over me from ruining my career possibly earning 120,000+ per year as a government pilot ?!?
TLDR: An antisocial supervisor has made baseless claims to the US GOVERNMENT that I have assaulted someone and intentionally spun an aircraft.
mirassou3416@reddit
Definitely call an attorney but in reality you’ll pay them to write a letter. A slander suit is expensive it’s not likely anyone is going to take it on a contingency because it’s difficult to prove
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Very great comment. I figured this was the case. I’ll post updates as I move forward!
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
What I would do is this: 1st I’d stop being nice and hiding the flight school name. If they’re unsafe you have a duty to stop them endangering people. And there is no downside - they’re already trashing you. Their reputation being corrected can only help you if what you’re saying is true and what they’re saying isn’t.
2nd, I would serve them a professionally written demand letter alleging slander. If they don’t have the money to fix their airplanes they don’t have the money to defend themselves in court. And if what you’re saying is true they also do not want any kind of attention.
3rd I would report them, in writing, and in as much detail as possible. If they are as unsafe as you say then again you have a duty. Student pilots and CFIs die from all sorts of reasons. It’s most sad when those reasons are completely preventable.
But before all that I’d take a hard look in the mirror and be as honest with myself as possible. Is there any truth to their claims? Did any of what they say happen?
I had a former employer trash me twice. Once for no reason I can discern (they did it to others as well) and once for refusing to lie for them in my logbook or fly completely unsafe aircraft in low IFR with icing. It’s usually best to leave it alone and move on, tell the truth about them as factually and with as little insult as possible and cast them in the most favorable light you can. But if they’re actively lying and sabotaging… that kind of goes out the window. Just remember: be honest, don’t embellish, and be glad you’re not there anymore.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
It’s a company with several locations, and unfortunately out of the three locations, this one has it the worst regarding planes and funding. Should the demand letter be wrote by a law firm?
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
It’s not going to be taken seriously if it doesn’t come from a lawyer, and it should go to the corporate office not the location.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Is it an issue if I send it to both corporate and the location? I want it to be clear to the person doing it, in fear that an HR email won’t suffice
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
I am not a lawyer, but I expect the lawyer who you employ to send the letter would be able to answer that for you.
If I were a lawyer I might make my demand to the corporate HQ and the demand be cease and desist the slander and that you require any evidence of the supposed incidents be sent to you immediately along with proof of when they were recorded to avoid fraudulently backdated reports.
yowzer73@reddit
Taking you completely at your word, you have two options. Lawyer up with a lawyer who takes slander/libel employment cases, knowing that the outcome is far from certain. Or you can start working on new relationships with new people that will supplant this places opinion to anyone who somehow asks.
If you have good relationships with anyone who worked there until after you did, keep them as well as you can, no matter what you do.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
Honestly if this security clearance was being sought by a potential employer, the offer never came through because of the slander and the potential employer states on the record that op would have gotten the job if not for the slander / inability to get the clearance then it is a pretty solid case.
Otherwise there is no case at all. Need three elements: 1. falsehoods 2. depicted as facts and 3. material loss.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I don’t have any connections and I seek advice of how to make meaningful connections with people in the industry. All airports around me are filled with people flying as a hobby, not as a career. I volunteer in several aviation programs but they are hobbyists
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
For the people downvoting, please offer advice as to how build connections. I’ve exhausted showing up at local airports for weeks on end hoping to meet people and introduce myself.
KCPilot17@reddit
You could sue them, but that's about it.
The investigator could care less if you spun an airplane, true or not. They're just gathering data to make sure you're not a threat to security.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Well, it all gets reviewed on a polygraph and panel interview by the government agency. I’m not afraid of the investigator, he is very neutral and personable. I’m scared that the agency will see these comments and believe I am a bad fit by spinning an aircraft (shows poor judgement if true)
KCPilot17@reddit
I can't think of a world you would get a polygraph.
And they could view it that way. Tell them it's not true.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
It’s a requirement and listed plain as day as part of the process of joining both homeland security and ATC. It will be conducted at a nearby large city
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
If this is the job I think it is, be prepared to get a bait and switch to flying drones instead of the 206 or king air.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
It definitely is. You’re correct.. but it lets me further my skill and that’s what matters to me. In the meantime I could join a local club and keep myself in the air, is my thought
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
To further elaborate, here is the hiring process:
Tentative offer from a job fair
Complete initial application
Medical, fitness, drug tests (pass)
Clearance obtaining
Polygraph over my clearance answers and general character
Three part assessment of written, oral, and practical knowledge
Character interview in front of three agents
Offer letter, class dates assigned for training
i_own_5_cats@reddit
talk to an employment lawyer asap, you’ve got clear evidence and a federal process involved so you can’t just let it slide. also during the sf86 process be super upfront and give your side + proof. wild what people do to mess with careers
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I’ve got one returning a call tomorrow. Thinking cease and desist as a bare minimum. I don’t believe that HR is aware of what was accused. Thank you for your comment
ThatRunwayBehindUs@reddit
You need to be more forthright with your background investigator as well... for reasons that are unclear to me (which starts to make me work about your story, but thats not for me to decide) - but why are you hiding all of this from them?
Go in and tell them that you had safety concerns, and you were eventually let go for reporting them. Detail what why when how - let the invesrigator put things into place and then talk with the company.
Now you've let the company get the first word and you are having to pkay defense now.
It just doesn't make sense to me that you would detail that entire process leading to the firing...
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
It’s easy to detail on Reddit because I have 10 minutes to formulate my thought through typing. Versus the clearance investigator that interrupted me several times after just two sentences when he called me. I have no preparation for a phone call, especially when I have no idea these accusations are coming my way. Now that I can process what has been accused of me, it’s so easy to make clear thought and solid reasoning as to my case here on Reddit.
If I had a chance to write a formal explanation the investigator, I would do that with even better detail than on Reddit. But all you get is a phone call, with an investigator that doesn’t even understand what an aircraft spin is and cuts you off constantly.
If someone called you accusing you of a crime out of the blue, would you be able to defend yourself on the call completely in four sentences without leaving gaps, with them interrupting you?
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
there are always three sides to any story, Your‘s, theirs and the truth
a security clearance doesn't care if you spun a plane they do care that you tell the truth and dont have any girlfriends named Fang Fang.
Worry about what you can change and tell the truth that’s all you can do.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I have told the truth, but it goes deeper than this. If any nongovernment employers contact them, what will be said about me?
ThatRunwayBehindUs@reddit
You understand that lying via omission is still lying, right?
Saying i told thr truth, but it goes deeper than this - implies that you are omitting things and thus lying by omission, and thus lying...
So if you are lying here, meh whatever, its another guy lying on the internet. But why lie to your investigator? You could have set this straight from the start - and now its starting to seem like there is more to the story than what you are telling us...
Which - if I were your investigator - that now feels like you've lied to me, and are trying to hide what really happened, and makes me more inclined to believe your previous employer... so whats going on?
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
The clearance form asks “why did you separate from employment”. I answer what they TOLD ME. “Not a good fit”. THEN they call the employer, and the employer reveals things that I was NEVER told about. THEN the investigator calls me and asks about the employer said. I have no idea about these accusations, because they’ve never been revealed to me until NOW.
Does this look like lying on my part? What was lied about? I filled the form correctly and honestly with what they told me.
I said it goes deeper than this because there is MORE issue than just me getting a clearance. If the employer tells future companies of mine accusations that are not true, THIS is the issue I’m talking about. “It goes deeper than this” is in reference to your comment, not my original story!!!
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
you have told YOUR truth, I don't know you and don't know the situation and don't know what the flight school is saying
See the problem?
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I’m not arguing with you… I don’t disagree that there are different sides. I expressed additional concerns that it will affect more than the clearance outcome
See my point?
No-Duck4828@reddit
I'm not a lawyer, and I am definitely not YOUR lawyer
But in your shoes, I would definitely find someone to BE your lawyer
The actions of your former employer do not just break civil law (for which you're probably going to want to sue), but also break criminal law. Such a lie to the investigator would appear to be a federal felony:
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Screenshotting this! You have been more than helpful here!
RandalPMcMurphyIV@reddit
NAL, just speculating based on what seems logical.
If you were to sue this previous employer, you have documentation of the falsehoods that he spread about you (SF86 investigation), that would quickly fall apart on discovery, where he would have to testify under oath, which is where his story would fall apart.
He would have to provide names and dates of his allegations and those people could be subpoenaed to also testify under oath. You could end up dealing with employer's insurance company that might well settle rather than go to trial after discovery goes south.
There is enough on the line for you, that if it were me, I would be talking to lawyers. Don't communicate by phone. Take some time to write this story down in all its detail (AI is very good at tasks like this) and send it out to a selection of attorneys who specialize in slander/libel. AI would also be helpful in searching for the right attorneys.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
This is the best and most well written response yet. Great job, I will take this all to heart and start reaching out to several for a case review. Thank you!!
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Have a lawyer write a letter telling him that any further defamation will result in a suit to recover damages. Have someone call and ask for a reference and record the call.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Great advice. The state I live in is one party consent, so easy to record. If the clearance is denied for employment reasons, I think that’s proof enough for a full suit
BrtFrkwr@reddit
The threat will be enough. Most companies have a policy of only confirming employment and nothing else.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I feel confident that HR is not a problem here, they are in another state and don’t have an easy contact method. I’m hoping this triggers HR to send an email and at the very least put the staff on blast about being unprofessional
BrtFrkwr@reddit
If they persist, your lawyer may be willing to take the case on contingency, that is-if you win something they take a healthy cut. Usually a company doesn't want the publicity of going to court and their lawyers will advise them to settle.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
They are already in a large lawsuit now, probably way bigger than mine could ever be. Thank you for the prep, I’m very new to the lawyer world !
BrtFrkwr@reddit
I've never had to have a lawyer do anything other than write a letter.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Perfect. Makes me hopeful it can end there and be called finished!!
VanDenBroeck@reddit
At any point in time did you file a hotline complaint with the FAA or call the local FSDO? If you thought the place was unsafe, you should have.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I did not, at the time I wanted to not be outed by the employer if they were investigated and I still was an employee. What scares me just as much as the planes in disrepair is the supervisor’s carelessness and attitude!!
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
So when you told the investigator there was some safety issues you brought up at the school and they terminated you, what did they say?
No one is truly as unique in experience as any other person so I bet you aren't the first with a situation like this. There should be a way for them to work out who's got real problems and who doesn't.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
I didn’t tell the investigator that there were issues, I told the truth of what happened when I was terminated. When I was terminated I was told “you aren’t a good fit”. So I told them this. When they called all my previous references and employers, he was told this crazy information
shrunkenhead041@reddit
You should have told the investigator what you believe lead to the termination, because that is a common, often valid claim, against flight schools. It would have given them the reason upfront to not believe what the former supervisor told them.
I would get a consultation with a libel/slander/personal torts attorney, even if it it costs you $500. If you have attorney drop a letter on this guy for lying to a federal agent about you, it should scare the shit out of them to stfu.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
The instructor may not, but the school certainly has money ! It’s a last resort to take it court, I don’t want my image tainted as being sue happy. But.. you are certainly right about the letter. I am waiting for a call back from my lawyer tomorrow!
shrunkenhead041@reddit
You should have told the investigator what you believe lead to the termination, because that is a common, often valid claim, against flight schools. It would have given them the reason upfront to not believe what the former supervisor told them.
I would get a consultation with a libel/slander/personal torts attorney, even if it it costs you $500. If you have attorney drop a letter on this guy for lying to a federal agent about you, it should scare the shit out of them to stfu.
radioref@reddit
This sounds like a complete mess.
Which means it’s a he said she said issue, which means no real recourse. If someone is going to talk shit about you, there isn’t much you can do about it.
Your security clearance review is to determine whether or not you told the truth about your background and that you aren’t going to sell out the United States (either by your choice or someone else’s choice I.e. extortion)
Focus on getting your security clearance and just tell the truth to everyone and you will be fine.
Internal_Time8330@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the encouragement. I am also worried that it will hurt my chances beyond the clearance… aka securing a meaningful job. Like, I may be not a threat to the government, but I could be viewed as an issue to hire me on.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hello all, this might belong in a legal sub more than flying, but I’m curious what you would do here.
Last year I worked at a flight school for about five weeks, and management had a change up at the end of that period. I met with the new supervisor to mention that I’m noticing unsafe aircraft and major things missing or loose after maintenance inspections. Private meeting. Door closed. Same day as a safety meeting ASKING us what we can do to improve safety at (five letter flight school). He stared at me and acted as though I was an annoyance. He told me that if I have an issue with it, I should complain to maintenance (I’m not doing that, it’s not my place). I thanked him and walked out awkwardly.
(I had several engine partial power fails/complete failures, one engine went kaboomboom on my takeoff roll. Screws in the double digits missing from the engine cowling… etc!)
A few days later, I was terminated without warning and given the reason of “not a good fit for the company”. I had no explanation further. This company did NOT deny my claims for unemployment, and only gave the state the same reason they gave me. No documentation given to me, just get your things and go.
Fast forward to recently as I try to obtain a SF86 security clearance with the US government. The clearance investigator calls me and states what this former employer said about me. He was told that I got into a physical altercation with a student, and that I SPUN an aircraft with a student onboard. Neither of these things happened.
I am now terrified that my aviation career is over and that a security clearance may be impossible to obtain because of the accusation of the physical assault on a student and spinning an aircraft. I had a great relationship with my previous supervisor and never had any formal or informal meetings to discuss my performance.
I have ALL student names that I flew with while at the school, and police were never contacted, which you would think would happen if I physically assaulted a student. I have ADS B data for each flight and there is no display of a spin happening.
How do I effectively STOP someone that held power over me from ruining my career possibly earning 120,000+ per year as a government pilot ?!?
TLDR: An antisocial supervisor has made baseless claims to the US GOVERNMENT that I have assaulted someone and intentionally spun an aircraft.
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