The bond market has been quietly pricing in a sovereign debt spiral for months and I don't think most people understand how few exits actually exist
Posted by Thick_Ship_9762@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 253 comments
I want to try to explain something I've been sitting with for a while, because every time I try to find a clean counterargument I can't.
There's a mechanism playing out in US treasury markets right now that feels structurally different from anything in the post-2008 era. Not because yields are high they've been high before but because of the position the Federal Reserve is in relative to the debt load it's managing around. Start with the basics. When a government borrows money it sells bonds. The yield the interest rate isn't set by the government. It's set by whoever is willing to buy. When buyers trust the government they accept a low yield. When they get nervous they demand more. A sovereign debt crisis is what happens when that fear hits a mathematical breaking point where the interest owed starts compounding faster than the economy can grow.
The US is not there yet. But the trajectory is not ambiguous. The national debt is north of $39 trillion. It grows at roughly $2.5 trillion a year. At current yield levels, the interest alone is becoming one of the largest line items in the federal budget competing with defense, Medicare, Social Security. The people buying these bonds can do that math. And they're demanding higher rates to compensate for a trajectory that only ends a few ways, none of them clean. Here's the trap. The Fed cannot cut rates to relieve pressure on the economy without signaling to bond markets that inflation control is being deprioritized. In an environment where China has quietly cut its treasury holdings nearly in half from peak, and Japan is a forced seller just to keep its own currency from collapsing, the marginal buyer of US debt is increasingly price-sensitive. A rate cut could push long-end yields higher, not lower. The intended mechanism breaks. And the Fed cannot raise rates further without accelerating the debt service spiral. Both doors lead to the same room.
The historical precedent that keeps coming back to me is the 1970s. Not because of the surface-level inflation comparison but because of the structural one. The government hit the same impossible math couldn't raise taxes enough, couldn't cut benefits, so it reached for the one lever that doesn't require a vote. It printed. Let inflation quietly do the redistribution. Americans lost roughly half their purchasing power in a decade. Nobody announced it. Nobody called it collapse. The system kept functioning. People just got gradually poorer and couldn't explain exactly why. That's the version of this I think about most. Not a crash. Not a Lehman moment. Just a decade-long slow bleed where the number in your account stays the same and everything it can buy shrinks. The system writes it off as inflation. You feel it as something harder to name.
The thing that makes me think this sub is actually the right place to talk about this rather than an economics forum is that the standard economics framing keeps looking for the policy fix. The rate adjustment, the fiscal consolidation, the soft landing. But if you run the numbers on what fiscal consolidation actually requires at this debt level, it's politically impossible under any scenario I can model. And if you look at how the countries that used to fund American borrowing are repositioning, the assumption that there's always a buyer at a reasonable price is starting to look like the kind of thing people believe until they suddenly don't. I'm not predicting a date. I'm not saying next year. I'm saying the exits are closing and I genuinely don't see the path where this resolves without a prolonged period of financial repression that most people currently alive have no framework for.
Has anyone here worked through a model where this actually unwinds cleanly? I keep looking for the counterargument and I'm not finding it.
zaaaaa@reddit
Every time I see discussion about US debt I search for, and usually fail to see, the easy solution touching our collective nose.
Tax the rich. Tax the fuck out of the rich. Tax them until billionaires no longer exist. Then let's see where the projections sit.
AnAdventureCore@reddit
People let MILLIONAIRES get that big, no one should need a billion, much less a MILLION.
SeVenMadRaBBits@reddit
Tax the rich
hiddendrugs@reddit
It’s so crazy to think about. I truly don’t understand how $999m isn’t enough for an individual.
Billionaires don’t earn their wealth. Society generates it through favorable economic conditions. They owe us. Big time.
pricelesspyramid@reddit
While it sounds easy, it'll just worsen the coming debt crisis. Contary to popular belief, taxing the billionaires (top 1%)would do very little in revunue for the government( billions collect relative to the trillions owed) . you'd have to go after the top 10%. However, the top 10% account for 50% of consumer spending, and that consumer spending account for 70% of our economy (GDP). So if you tax the rich, they stop spending and causing company earnings to fall, which triggers stock market vaulations to fall, and the top 10% who store their wealth in the stock market further stop spending(wealth effect), causing a cascade ( layoffs etc) through out the economy pushing GDP down which reduces the tax revenue for the government causing the government to borrow even more to close their deficits and growing the debt pile even more. Then the fed has to bail the economy by printing money which will cause inflation, pushing bond yields up, which will push the interest expense the government pays on their bonds higher further widen the defceit causing the government to need to borrow even more and so on and so on till poof.
markodochartaigh1@reddit
Greed is not rational. Need is rational. You can satisfy need. You can not satisfy greed. Greed, the love of money or possessions, is an emotion.
Fn_Spaghetti_Monster@reddit
Imagine getting all bent out of shape because they want to tax your 2nd house/apartment that's worth more than $1 mill.
Reluctant_Firestorm@reddit
The difficult part is the rich need to be taxed on their assets, not their income.
Their borrow against their assets for money to spend, while continuing to grow their wealth and avoid tax liability.
We don't currently have a model for taxing wealth, rather than just taxing income. Not that it can't be done, but expect the rich to fight such a change with every fiber of their being.
IPA-Lagomorph@reddit
We do have a mechanism for taxing assets, called property taxes. Most places also tax things like vehicles by requiring registration.
ArugulaAcrobatic4018@reddit
Shares aren't property. And taxing unrealized investment gains is going to also fuck over anyone with a 401k (they will make sure it does)
03263@reddit
Greed exists in the government too so high taxes don't guarantee wise spending. And at some point they have more than they can reasonably spend. If it goes into wealth redistribution and actually hits individuals bank accounts, that would be a better outcome I think than simply collecting and trying to spend it within our massive, bloated government complex.
Forsaken_Quality_69@reddit
Problem with that is they just leave. They would give up their citizenship in a heartbeat. Then that leaves us even more fucked as they moved all their businesses out next. Just look at California.
zaaaaa@reddit
No, they don't. That's an oft repeated threat/fallacy.
Happy_Ocelot_4945@reddit
Seems like you won't understand multistate/international tax filing. If a rich person owns multiple homes in different states and countries, they pick only 1 home as their primary residency.
They're not paying income taxes for each house they own. That's why the panama papers mattered a decade ago.
turisto@reddit
They will no longer exist in the US, because they would just take their billions and go somewhere else where they're more welcome.
LesnBOS@reddit
They can do that- but we return corporate tax to what it was before Reagan as well and they'll be sitting there without the cash from their corporations.
NotTodayGlowies@reddit
Then you seize their assets, be it real estate, stocks, bonds, accounts, etc.
They can leave, but as we've seen with the ICC sanctions, the US financial system has it's greasy little paws in every corner of the global market.
Instead of going after iCC judges, we go after billionaires. It doesn't matter if they're in a foreign tax haven, all their assets, purchasing power, and ability to access capital relies on the US financial system.
They can't liquidate fast enough. Even if they ran off to an adversary nation, like Russia, their assets would still be in US markets, on US soil, or valued and traded in USD.
I don't care if they leave.... good, let them leave. They're parasites who create nothing. They're not engineers, architects, researchers or scientists; they're con men and grifters. If they leave, their companies and by extension, their companies products, services, and patents still persist. Nothing of value will be lost.
TADHTRAB@reddit
I mean for any other country but this is USA. Look at all the market manipulation going on by the Trump administration, in any other country there would be capital flight probably. I mean I agree maybe some will leave but if any country can do it then it is the USA.
ditchdiggergirl@reddit
I’m perfectly happy to see Peter Thiel in Argentina.
Few_Fish8771@reddit
Have you heard of bounty hunters? The old international legal order is dead. Whois to say that billionaires cannot be taxed retroactively for crimes they committed. If you corrupt the political and legal system to make yourself immune to the law, then the foundation of the law itself is invalidated. if the foundation of the corrupted law is invalidated then it cannot be used to protect you from actions that under broad legal and ethical doctrines would be crimes.
Bounty hunters can hunt and retrieve billionaires who destroyed society for fun and profit and take them back to their home country to have assets recovered.
Corruption of the law cannot be used as a shield against broader ethical and legal principles. if you bribe the judge to throw the case, if found out that cannot be used to protect you from prosecution. Similarly if you bribe the political class to make evil predatory or illegal things legal, that cannot be used to shield you from the consequences of violating the rights of others.
When hosting international criminals becomes a deadly liability for the hosting country it becomes much much harder to justify to the population to let them in. When protecting criminals means your country is a target for bounty hunters who can use scorched earth strategies to retrieve the target, the cost benefit analysis becomes negative to allowing any of these types to be incorporated into your society.
To corrupt the law is to invalidate the law, to invalidate the law is to destroy all protections granted by that invalidated law. If you commit crimes against humanity and flee to another country that country is within its rights to hunt you down and extract reparations and retribution.
SGRM_@reddit
Tax them there as well.
illicitli@reddit
it doesn't matter. all the money printed is captured by them. most money is fractional reserve. most moneh is debt. learn MMT. you see money as a zero sum game but it isn't. taxes are a mechanism to keep you working. that's all it is. based on nothing. not gold. not even oil. not based on anything but a floating point number and keeping you enslaved through debt. people are mentally asleep.
ditchdiggergirl@reddit
Easy solution? The rich own the government, the media (tech and legacy), and pretty much everything else they need. Which means they both own the means to raise taxes, and control the narrative.
I do not think it will be “easy” to persuade wealthy lawmakers and their donors/handlers to raise taxes on themselves. Nor do I not think it will be “easy” to take control away from the rich.
zaaaaa@reddit
There are many different forms of persuasion.
ditchdiggergirl@reddit
Sure. But you specified easy.
zaaaaa@reddit
There are more of us.
Fn_Spaghetti_Monster@reddit
"You let one ant stand up to us, then they all might stand up! Those puny little ants outnumber us a hundred to one, and if they ever figure that out, there goes our way of life!"
Inner-ego@reddit
The French knew this, we should all know this.
Ohh yeah, the grasshoppers know this too.
ditchdiggergirl@reddit
I’m not among those who think that makes things easy.
markodochartaigh1@reddit
Exactly. The reason that the US has this ever expanding debt isn't because we spent too much on food stamps. Or too much on Social Security benefits. Or too much on roads and bridges. The reason for 95% of our debt is 1) tax cuts which mostly go to millionaires and billionaires and 2) wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc. Claw back the tax cuts the top 1% have been given (all right, they did pay for those tax cuts by buying politicians), and defend the military industrial complex and we will have no debt problem and enough money to build the US back better.
tendimensions@reddit
That can absolutely help many issues, but the debt crisis I’m not so sure.
zaaaaa@reddit
Are you implying that the vast holdings of the elite couldn't be liquidated, and that the value of those assests couldn't cover the debt?
Taxation alone is leaving them with a kindness. Personally I think anything I've $100M in wealth should end up in prison. Time escalating up to $1B wherein capital punishment is on the table.
Yes, just for being that wealthy. Eat the rich.
tendimensions@reddit
Yeah, except I’m sure you know most of that wealth is in the stock of their companies. Even if you signed over all that stock to the government (like Trump taking a 10% stake in Intel) - how do you unwind it and make it useful without tanking the stock and all the 401ks wrapped up in it?
I have no problem taxing everything over $100 million at 100%. But I suspect you haven’t calculated what all that wealth really adds up to compared to the debt the U.S. is in.
lost_horizons@reddit
This is also at root a fiat crisis. All fiat currencies eventually go to zero. They are the same as credit, backed by promises but that trust is breaking. Stocks, derivatives, mortgage backed securities, it’s all credit, as is the dollar. This experiment in fiat is ending. We will return to gold or other hard asset backed money. Quickly or slowly.
chota-kaka@reddit
The music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of...capitalism.
zaaaaa@reddit
There's still plenty of money in play to find buyers for those assets. Plus as you unfreeze $ from the hoards these dragons have, it cycles more and with each exchange resulting in additional tax revenues.
Bomberdude333@reddit
Hey Jarvis, look up Corporate tax rate on profits before Reagan and after. Also look up top marginal tax rates before 1970 and after.
Let me know what you find.
TanteJu5@reddit
Taxing the wealthy will not solve the underlying issues. You need to completely revamp the system and strip away the old ideological labels. If you don't, the new authorities will inevitably turn into an elite ruling class, similar to the KGB during the late Soviet era. Ultimately, it creates a vicious cycle.
whoareyoutoquestion@reddit
capitalism, world wide, but more so in the US has made politics a gameshow of enterainment value rather to reflective of will of the people. study after study finds citizen concern barely if at all impacts change. the duopoly acts as a shield against critsism with one side blaming the other for why people are suffering paycheck to paycheck and the other side saying they are fighting hard to do the right thing while actively preventing change that would matter and helping erode rights instead.
tax the rich only works when legislative and executive functions are not services to be bought. yet thats where we are. the only difference between the two parties today is one has more palatable branding than the other. yet both keep moving forward the same agendas.
when the system of governance breaks, when the laws exist only to harm the public and help capital is it really a government by consent of the governed anymore?
Siglet84@reddit
Taxing anyone isn’t going to fix it. The scale is just unfathomable. It’s just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Only way out is an absolute collapse and restart.
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
The more I learn the more I think the bonds I inherited aren’t going to recover. I think they were purchased as a safe play but those days seem to be behind us.
codybrown183@reddit
Best cash those in sooner than later
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
Yeah that’s what I’m worried about. They were a gift from my late father and I sure wish I could ask him what he thinks.
yoshiatsu@reddit
If you sell the bonds before they mature, what will you do with the money? If yields keep going up, the Fed will intervene and attempt to control the yield curve. That will affect the strength of the dollar (weakening it) and inflation will jump. The dollars you got for selling your bonds will lose value quickly. I'm not saying "don't do it" at all -- I don't buy any long or intermediate term bonds anymore. Rather, I'm saying "don't just plan to sell, plan what you will buy that will outperform (hopefully) the bonds."
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
It’s in VBTLX so I think there is no date to worry about, just the current 14% loss. I’d probably just stick it in an index fund.
yoshiatsu@reddit
If you read the prospectus, you'll see info like this:
Average effective maturity 8.1 years 8.1 years
Average duration 5.7 years 5.8 years
And statements like these:
In general, such funds are appropriate for investors with medium-term investment horizons (four to ten years)
Even bond ETF/funds have "duration" and duration risk. i.e. they are a bag of bonds that mature at different times. IIUC, the "average duration" is the mean time to an individual bond in the fund's maturity date. Honestly I have no idea what average effective maturity is...
My point is that, while the investment doesn't have a fixed date you hold until, it still has duration. In general, don't buy a bond fund unless you are willing to hold it for the length of its average duration because you can lose money by selling while it's "down" relative to your purchase date with the dividends it paid considered. Taking duration into account when buying either a bond or bond fund tells you more: long duration bonds or funds of bonds will move in price more as interest rates move. And, of course, the longer the duration the longer you have to be prepared to lose control of the money meaning there can be opportunity cost to owning it.
Anyway, good luck. I just wanted to give you that info in case it's new to you.
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
Thank you! That is new information and might help to make the decision more clear. I appreciate the response!
ArugulaAcrobatic4018@reddit
A weaker dollar means stronger value of assets. Just buy stocks or index ETFs. VOO is fine.
Exact_Zone_8331@reddit
Luke I’m your father! Join me and together we will cash them and rule the bond market.
Turbulent-Beauty@reddit
Isn’t it crazy how almost all of us remember the Darth Vader line that way? If you watch the movie again, Vader says, “No. I am your father.”
Jbrown183@reddit
This cannot be, I’m positive it was “Luke, I’m your father” and I cannot be convinced otherwise. So weird…
Koala_eiO@reddit
Because it was that.
Jbrown183@reddit
I’ll bet the downvotes are coming from young ppl that did it watch it back in the day, I watched in the late 90’s in my teens and remember that part vividly.
Koala_eiO@reddit
Yep and all the references in other media also use that form, because it's the real form. You have it in the Simpsons for example where Dr Hibbert imitates Darth Vader and laughs. Apparently it's been modified in recent versions of the movie.
Turbulent-Beauty@reddit
If the Mandella Effect is real, I’m from the same fork of reality as you. I’m somewhat confident (and others are extremely confident) it was “Luke” when I originally watched the Empire Strikes Back. Apparently, if we pop the VHS cassette in now, Darth Vader will say “No” instead of “Luke”.
Jbrown183@reddit
I have to find an old vhs now to see if it’s just the narrative that has changed or has our past history changed…
Jbrown183@reddit
So so strange!
RonnieJamesDionysus@reddit
In Tommy Boy, when Chris Farley is speaking and making weird noises into the fan, he says it that way. I think that has to be a big reason.
Jbrown183@reddit
No, the original never said “No,” it was “Luke.” I remember so vividly and I’ve not seen tommyboy.
Turbulent-Beauty@reddit
I also remember “Luke” but apparently in this universe it has always been “No”. Have you heard of the Mandela Effect?
Jbrown183@reddit
Yeah, I remember that scene vividly from watching it in my teens around 20 years ago smh. This definitely made me look deeper into the Mandela effect and whoa, what a rabbit hole! There others in there that I swear have been changed as well. Why this happened, I don’t know but very, very strange.
It-s_Not_Important@reddit
I’m sure they did that on purpose though. Paraphrasing as “Luke, I am…” adds a lot of context that the original quote doesn’t have.
msoats@reddit
I have never seen this movie, and it was Luke long before this movie was even made.
It-s_Not_Important@reddit
Whaaaaat?! Next thing you’re going to tell me Nelson Mandela died in the 90s, and the monopoly man doesn’t have a monocle.
Beneficial_Walrus886@reddit
And in Bullit, the baddies were driving an impala and not a dodge charger as we collectively remembered.
Koala_eiO@reddit
You could just accept that there are several versions of the movie and not imply that everyone remembers it wrong.
Turbulent-Beauty@reddit
If you have a version with “Luke” instead of “no,” it would be news worthy.
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
The sign I’ve been waiting for 😂
ReferentiallySeethru@reddit
What’s the term on the bonds?
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
Their in VBTLX
ReferentiallySeethru@reddit
Oh, a bond fund, and one with relatively short duration (average 5.7 years). If you hang on to it for \~6 years you should make your money back from the interest payments regardless. It’s longer term (20-30 year) bonds that are screwed.
Sarcasm_Llama@reddit
I'm sure your father bought them for you to use, not hang onto forever. If you want to use them now or very soon is probably the prudent move. With the way things are going, some bullshit could come down at any moment and they suddenly might not be worth the paper they're printed on
Mathfanforpresident@reddit
Do legitimate research. Also, people demonize it but, AI is your friend here.
Gemini has all the information that every Google search has produced. It's the one I used when I'm trying to research heavy topics that I don't know much about.
Make sure you get all the variables and make a decision. It seems like if you want to hang on to money that is going to grow, buying gold is never a bad idea.
I_Am_Mandark_Hahaha@reddit
Found the AI chatbot
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
Why does this answer get downvotes but the ai slop YouTube video gets upvoted? I’m willing to skim ai slop for info I want to dig into elsewhere but I can’t stomach the ai slop videos.
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
Yeah I’ve been chit chatting with ai about it for weeks and slowly learning more so I can make at least a somewhat informed decision. Hard to take a loss but if I’d done it last year it would have recovered with gains in VOO. Hard to make a major life decision when everyone I learn more there is some seriously perspective changing info in there.
RobboCoppo1@reddit
I've finally found an investment adviser that I trust, despite him being employed by my mainstream bank branch in smallish town Canada - he's a relatively recently arrived immigrant into Canada from Kashmir and presented a refreshingly clear and honest perspective on the world, current instability and the best financial strategies to navigate the current times. Would strongly recommend trying to find someone like that near you, and chatting with them; my appointment was free and, because we're in a relatively small town, we chatted for about 90 mins. Developing a personal relationship with someone - while bearing in mind they do also have a job to do to get you to invest with the bank - may well give you more confidence in and understanding of these decisions you're faced with making.
My two cents on your situation is that I think that you should hold onto your bonds. If the US finds itself in a position where it's widely defaulting on bond payouts, the liquid dollars you'd receive from cashing out now would also probably become worthless. Sure, you could cash out now and invest in something that might be protected, or even benefit, from a major financial meltdown in the US, but predicting the ramifications of a complete collapse of the currency that has largely financed the world for almost 100 years is going to be extremely difficult to do.
Hold the bonds, continue to learn, make your own investments to spread your risk and maybe make some more short to medium term gains, and consider what you would do if you woke up one morning and suddenly all your investments were worth much less than the day before.
Tall_Pizza562@reddit
That's what China and Japan are doing
RlOTGRRRL@reddit
You can look into TIPS that should at least be protected from inflation.
ArugulaAcrobatic4018@reddit
That hasn't worked in many many years
ForeverStella@reddit
Keep in mind when people run the banks you can't get your money. The bonds will be unsellable and worthless. I would wait to see what the midterms bring but after that if there are no changes in the House and Senate I would move. Already did this with gold when at its highs.
metalucid@reddit
Sorry- you're saying you got out of gold?
GregLoire@reddit
Present prices of bonds are forward-looking, so their prices aren't more likely to rise just because they've recently fallen.
It's unlikely we'll see a sharp rebound in prices, but it's equally unlikely that we'll see another significant decline.
(I'm assuming you're holding long-term bonds because shorter-term bonds aren't as sensitive to changes in interest rate forecasts.)
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
They are shares in a bond index fund
GregLoire@reddit
Which bond index fund?
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
VBTLX
GregLoire@reddit
Losing 14% in the biggest crash of that asset class in a generation is why it's considered a relatively safe holding. You're very unlikely to lose significantly more.
(Though to emphasize, you're also unlikely to recover that 14% in principal anytime soon -- but after the interest payments you'll probably break even overall within a few years.)
Thick_Ship_9762@reddit (OP)
That's a hard position to be in and your instinct is probably right. Bonds as a safe play made sense when inflation was contained and buyers were reliable. Neither of those conditions really holds right now, and there's a structural argument they won't come back the same way. There's a breakdown I came across recently that maps out exactly why the old bond thesis is cracking: https://youtu.be/UOIvBhEnhM0
the part around the 1-minute mark is where it all clicked for me.
ginandsoda@reddit
I can make an AI video that argues anything
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
I’ll read ai slop to get ideas for what to research more but the ai videos I really just can’t stomach.
nanobot_1000@reddit
I just use a HYSA with 4.40% APY for my cash allocation instead of dealing with the uncertainty in bond markets right now.
C__Zakalwe@reddit
Where in the world are you getting 4.4% in a HYSA? The best CD rates I saw last week were 4.2.
nanobot_1000@reddit
PiBank
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
Yeah at least that doesn’t go down!
NyriasNeo@reddit
just convert to cash and build a balanced portfolio with stocks, bonds and gold. Or even real estate. Stock and gold (as well as real estate) are hedge against inflation, bonds are hedge against stock volatility (capex cycle).
No one should hold just bonds as it is not a diversified portfolio anyway, whether it is not, or under some other situations.
opinionsareus@reddit
If they're EE Bonds, aren't they relatively safe from this turmoil? If not, then maybe something to worry about.
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
They are shares of an index fund of bonds.
HommeMusical@reddit
A simple mitigation: cash them in and buy much shorter term bills or notes which you keep rolling over.
Some interest, much less risk.
EurekaStockade@reddit
if china is holding fewer US Bonds--that means they have been spending them to buy US assets--such as more ports farming land & other critical infrastructure
the trade war is a smokescreen-- Trump is allowing China to own more of America
ginandsoda@reddit
The solution is quite simple.
Raise taxes back to where they were.
Hire back IRS agents to audit more people. Clean the tax code so taxes are less complicated and can be automated.
The debt is an income problem, leading to a cashflow problem, leading to borrowing.
Guyincognito911@reddit
This is patently incorrect. The US debt is almost 40 trillion dollars. There is no amount of money you can collect from the citizenry that will pay this back.
Ok-Post2247@reddit
If you count liquid millionaires (not 401k/home equity millionaires) up to billionaires it's something like 34 trillion dollars total. If you found a way to turn every dollar of that wealth to cash it couldn't wipe out the national debt. The idea that a wealth tax can keep the country running and nobody has to pay anything every again is absolute nonsense.
ginandsoda@reddit
Why would we try to pay 80 years of debt in one year?
5% per year for 20 years works fine.
Also, there is no reason to get the debt to zero. The debt is there to boost liquidity and growth.
Guyincognito911@reddit
You fundamentally don't understand how fiat currency and central bank money printing work. The debt will never be paid. The debt will increase, fiat will devalue, and assets -- that the rich hold - - will appreciate. To think "it's simple just raise taxes" shows a complete misunderstanding of how any of this works and incentive structures.
ginandsoda@reddit
Sure. That's why the deficit has tripled.
You don't seem to understand a simple balance sheet.
Guyincognito911@reddit
The debt cannot be retired through taxation at any politically viable rate. That's not an opinion -- the primary deficit alone is over $1.8 trillion. You'd need sustained surpluses for DECADES while the same donor class that wrote the current tax code agrees to undo it. That has never happened and the incentive structure guarantees it won't.
The debt isn't an income problem. It's a structural feature of fiat monetary systems. It grows because it's designed to grow. The Fed prints, assets inflate, real wages compress, and the people holding hard assets get richer in real terms while the currency slowly dies. Taxing your way out assumes the system wants to be fixed. It doesn't. The people with the power to fix it are the primary beneficiaries of leaving it broken.
You're incredibly naive.
LesnBOS@reddit
"Politically viable" is the giveaway here- you are basing this on the assumption the system will hold. Louis the IV made that assumption as well and he was quite mistaken.
Guyincognito911@reddit
Louis IV was a 10th century king. You meant XVI. And he didn't tax his way out either, the system collapsed because the math was impossible. That's my argument, not a rebuttal to it. You can't fix this with taxation. Typical reddit brain comment.
Andrw_4d@reddit
This is the correct answer
MaxPower303@reddit
No one has said that but you. This is the same fear mongering billionaires want the uneducated to believe. Even if it doesn’t solve the national debt fuck them, and fuck the boot licking shills like you who lick the balls of the rich knowing you’ll never be in that little “club” of theirs.
Guyincognito911@reddit
Fear mongering? It's simple math. You cannot get out of debt by taxing the wealthy. It's so far beyond that. The entire system, in other words debt and money printing, functions precisely to increase the debt, devalue currency, and funnel the actual wealth to asset holders.
This thread is full of politically pissy pseudo Marxists who don't understand how money works.
hippydipster@reddit
We're not trying to get out of debt, we just need to avoid fiscal dominance.
Guyincognito911@reddit
We're already there lol
hippydipster@reddit
Simple and yet impossible.
entropreneur@reddit
Wealth tax. Remove all other taxes.
Property tax seems to have widespread acceptance. This will make things very easy.
Masta0nion@reddit
I just don’t see how you can tax unrealized gains.
You can stop wealthy people from taking out loans on them though.
look@reddit
There are a lot of homeowners that see their property taxes increase every year on unrealized gains that can explain it to you.
SwissChzMcGeez@reddit
That's an asset with a market of comparable properties to value. How much is a one-of-a-kind painting worth? Some start-up's private stock? An old bottle of wine?
hypnoticlife@reddit
Seriously “wealth tax” is almost purposely obtusely missing the point. We already do *property* tax and money and stocks are simply property.
(I hate that my property taxes go up just because my neighbor sold)
entropreneur@reddit
Why is it hard to understand when an existing model exists?
0.5% per year on all assets.
Tairc@reddit
Please, make it 2%. Or better yet, progressive. Nothing up to, say, $500,000. Then start climbing until 5% for the Musks and Bezos of the world.
Final_boss_1040@reddit
I think Musk and Bexos can afford to pay 10% or 20%. Fuck do a 99% tax on everything north of a billion.
phriendlyphellow@reddit
☝️
NotaWizardOzz@reddit
“Securities registration tax” similar to a mortgage registration tax when you take out a loan against real estate (in Minnesota at any rate) and then that loophole is closed?
ForeverStella@reddit
Never going to happen under this administration
keekoh123@reddit
It's clearly also a spending problem. How can you possibly not see that?
ginandsoda@reddit
Deficit was relatively low before the tax cuts in 1st T admin.
Check out a chart
keekoh123@reddit
Uhh wrong bro.
ginandsoda@reddit
Super convincing argument big guy
GodofPizza@reddit
Could significantly reduce costs by decreasing military “spending” (aka corporate giveaways of the most brutal variety)
Mechbear2000@reddit
But the rich will have to do more with less, or save less, or not buy a second house, or go on 4 vacations this year, or kick out that poor family from their slum rentals. THINK OF THE RICH BEFORE YOU ACT!
Federal_Rope1590@reddit
I agree with all this but also, isn’t there some concern that if taxes are raised, bonds get sold to cover losses in wealth?
Freud-Network@reddit
The debt is not just an income problem. It is also budgetary. your government spent over $7 trillion in 2025. You can. ot tax your way to that number, and you won't tax your way to the much higher numbers in 2026.
The US budget must be slashed severely along with a marked increase in taxation. However the US government will implode before your representation ever seriously considers such a thing
ginandsoda@reddit
That's also easy. Half of that is defense spending.
Adulations@reddit
Also cut Pentagon and DHS.
Chritt@reddit
Spending needs to be cut. And they need to find a way to tax the low interest loans rich people take out against their stock to avoid paying income taxes.
stilloriginal@reddit
Cutting spending actually has the reverse effect. Spending into the economy keeps tax revenues coming in. Its called the velocity of money or the money multiplier. Attempts at austerity only compound the problem, this is what happened in Japan. So this isn't just theory its fact.
DodgsonKaputnik@reddit
Have you looked at the Velocity of Money lately? Spending like a drunken sailor isn't budging the needle, at all, in the slightest.
This isn't just theory, it's fact, on the ground right now. It got updated a few days ago, it's dropping.
stilloriginal@reddit
not wrong, but let me try a different approach. Elon musk was given the job to cut government spending. He could basically do whatever he wanted. He went through all of it, cut basically nothing, gave up after 2 months, called the task "impossible". So is it really an option?
Chritt@reddit
I'm talking defense spending. They should absolutely be increasing spending on infrastructure, green energy, etc. Instead defense contractor's make out like bandits
AlwayInForwardMotion@reddit
I feel very confident the absolute opposite of that will be happening the next few years. Maybe longer if they figure out ways to pay now for defense in the future.
Kaining@reddit
Let's not forget that in practice, defense spending usualy ends up in flame and ashes. Like, literaly since the finality of it is to bomb away that money.
It's burning money in all sence of the term. Sure, there will be multi million contract to suck the blood of the country the us has burned to cinder but that do not compensate anything.
And in a climate changed, ressources drying world, pass some point there is nothing to rebuild with.
I wonder if the math has been done about how much 1$ spent in Defense by the us ends up costing in climate change destruction cost in the end.
stilloriginal@reddit
well sure, spending on that stuff actually fights inflation
EvolutionaryLens@reddit
Tick tock
Dfiggsmeister@reddit
We are facing levels of inflation that haven’t been seen since the Great Depression, all because the primary people to influence the economy are not doing their jobs. The Fed is trying but there’s political pressure to either drop rates or hold. But that creates a new problem in that as CPI goes up and Consumer Confidence drops, it will exacerbate the problem. In 2025, we could have had a soft landing and been ok and we were getting close to that. Then the current admin messed with that and fired a lot of people in government work. That expounded the unemployment problem from a minor blip to something bigger.
Trade negotiations fell through and Tariffs started impacting everything. Then those got made illegal so the admin did something so much worse. They started a war with Iran, which in turn shut down the strait of Hormuz. What many people don’t realize is that not only has major political problems but it also creates a lot of economic problems as well. Things like plastics, fertilizer, gasoline, etc are all made from the oil that runs through the strait. When you shut off the supply chain for that sector that runs 30% of the supply, you start to see economic impacts across the board. Now because of how supply chains work, it doesn’t usually hit right away, but we are starting to see the effects of it and it’s only the beginning.
Later this summer is when we are projected to see inflation really ramp up. We are already seeing signs of it happening across the board in a variety of categories, this will only get worse as consumers are pinched and cannot afford new things. We will likely start seeing a secondary market emerge, similar to what we saw during the 2008 crisis. There’s also two markets that are primed to pop, unlike what we saw in the 1970s: housing and AI.
AI has been overly hyped and many company’s bought in but they’re realizing that it doesn’t scale like most new products do when production goes up, costs generally come down. The exact opposite is happening with AI, the economy of scales is broken in that price of production has gone up significantly after buying in and is projected to get worse. As the demand increases for AI, the more expensive it’s going to get but there’s not enough supply to go around. Companies will realize quickly that AI cannot replace a lot of labor and the costs won’t replace that same labor. If anything it’s going to get more expensive than labor. As a result you’ll see companies pull back. We are already starting to see early adopters exit the AI market.
Housing got inflated hard during 2021-2024. People bought up homes at unprecedented rates because of delayed demand. But if we look at current rates today, average days up for sale, home supplies, and current pricing changes, you’ll see a bleak outlook, almost similar to 2008. But the difference here is that the bubble is less volatile than last time because there’s little to no subprime mortgages. The key difference is affordability. Because of costs of everything else going up, people will be forced to decide between eating and paying their home bills on top of being laid off and you’re going to see the housing market dive.
My two cents: as inflation worsens this summer, AI bubble will pop soon afterwards. We will likely see this happen in October when holiday spending is highest and a lot of corporations make 60-70% of their volume during that period. This winter will be brutal from both a weather stand point (super El Niño) and from spending as homes will be hitting either hotter than usual weather or colder than usual weather.
NearABE@reddit
Rampant inflation negates the debt crisis. It is one of those things like “after we crash into the tree the brakes failing no longer matters”.
I am not sure what to think of the AI bubble. When compared to the “AGI extinction of baseline humanity” that we were talking about decades ago this bubble pop sounds very optimistic.
The AI also opens up a dystopian path forward. The AI tells you the closet size dorm is the best living quarters, the extended work hours is optimal career building, the physical labor is part of the wellness plan, the instant gruel is the best (same thing we do with dogs/cats, most mammals do fine), your AI dating matches are what you asked for (this notion that you are in the sex industry is luddite conspiracy nonsense), and your quality of life is higher because your are laboring close to home. For years now some people on r/collapse have recommended prepping and gardening. Now the AI can recommend gardening while also leasing your storage space.
CastAside1812@reddit
There's the faint stench of AI wafting off this post.
ForeverStella@reddit
"The Fed cannot cut rates to relieve pressure on the economy without signaling to bond markets that inflation control is being deprioritized." You have not accounted for the Trump factor, which will bankrupt America. First the entire world does not trust him – which equates to higher borrowing costs for America. He will demand that his new fed chair lowers interest rate for his billionaire buddies. I personally don't expect this to be a decade long inflation battle - it is coming and it will hit hard. The stock market is higher than the valuation levels right before the 1930's stock market crash. Our economy consist of seven trillion dollar companies trading the same dollars back and forth. It can be covered up for a while, but just a matter of time before everything crashes.
TanteJu5@reddit
What's the solution then?
ForeverStella@reddit
To vote Democrat in the mid terms - the only solution is if Dems win the House and the Senate. Otherwise it is over and America will be at war globally and bankrupt before this term is up. There is nothing more important than the mid terms.
LesnBOS@reddit
Ha! They'll stabilize, not fix. There is only one party in the US and one is meant to buffer and ameliorate the pain handed down by the other. That's it.
ForeverStella@reddit
Hilarious - when America is begging for money and globally no one is willing to lend - there is no "Fixing it" Read this https://finance.yahoo.com/economy/policy/articles/trump-facing-inflation-warning-bond-040146951.html "The energy price spike triggered by the Iran war has seeped into the price of bonds that help fund the U.S. government. Interest rates on a 10-year U.S. Treasury note are topping 4.44%, up from 3.95% before the war started at the end of February. Average mortgage rates have climbed to their highest levels in nine months, while auto sales are slumping."
ForeverStella@reddit
Looks like you are not the only one having this discussion. Posted today about US borrowing becoming more expensive and that if we have a crash like a 2008 event our borrowing options are very limited as globally countries are shying away from American debt. https://finance.yahoo.com/economy/policy/articles/surging-treasury-yields-expose-brutal-070000258.html
stilloriginal@reddit
When buyers trust the government's ability to collect taxes they accept a low yield. When they get nervous they demand more. A sovereign debt crisis is what happens when that fear hits a mathematical breaking point where the interest owed starts compounding faster than the ~~economy~~ tax receipts can grow.
FTFY. The main problem has been the Trump tax cuts. You are seeing the backlash to this now in New York and California. Those are the solutions. It's the only way. Republicans want you to believe that raising taxes isn't possible, and that government debt is an unsolvable issue, or that the fed is at fault for inflation, or that its that the benefits are too high. But it is still a fact you can raise taxes and solve this.
Creepy_Valuable6223@reddit
The rich will simply move. They are already leaving California, and moving to Florida. They have the option of leaving the U.S. as well.
NicoBeingAModelCitiz@reddit
Some may. Most will not. And then you just tax the assets they leave behind. Not a lot of billionaires trust the Argentine or Cypriot courts more than the US courts under most circumstances.
Creepy_Valuable6223@reddit
So far the following have left:
Larry Page
Sergey Brin
Mark Zuckerberg
Peter Thiel
Travis Kalanick
Don Hankey
California already relies heavily on taxing rich people; its tax system is very progressive. It also relies heavily on taxes on stock market gains. Most very rich people do not have a personal attachment to California or anywhere else. They can hire good lawyers and the CA court system is as corrupt as most American court systems.
And, the politicians in CA are very rich. Good luck voting them out, and good luck getting them to vote for what you are describing.
Thiel just moved to Argentina and brought his family.
stilloriginal@reddit
as if we've never heard this argument before. it doesn't hold water its just theoretical gobbledygook.
Creepy_Valuable6223@reddit
Six of the richest humans on the planet have already left. There is nothing theoretical about that.
SubstituteCS@reddit
I’m gonna keep it real with you.
If raising taxes is all it takes to make parasites leave, that alone is already a win. The additional revenue from taxing the ones that stay is just icing on the cake.
stilloriginal@reddit
And that's with the Trump tax cuts in effect, so maybe it just doesn't matter?
LesnBOS@reddit
Proving why our system of corporate and shareholder/owner= individual taxation worked- if you can't take the money out of your corporation without being taxed on it heavily unless you reinvest it - NOT via stock buy backs but wages R&D infra, or if you take out a massive amount via salary etc you will be taxed on it. You taxed if you do and taxed if you don't - so you reinvest in your company and employees. This is what made the middle class in the US. And why Reagan killed it. If theil couldn't take his money out of palentir he wouldn't be in Argentina.
quiestdeus@reddit
Well said.
Useful_Tomato_409@reddit
Here’s a solution: tax the shyte out of billionaires, capital gains, corporations, and reduce defense spending by half.
ragnarokcock@reddit
Can't really do that, not yet anyway. You need that big military to bully the world into keeping that petrodollar for as long as possible.
if you lose reverve status, inflation is going to rocket, as everybody dumps the dollars they no longer need for oil payments.
throwaway661375735@reddit
That's what most countries did to save their economy, which is why they are all called paper-tigers. But not us, nuh-uh. We gotta get that defense bigger and bigger.
LegSpecialist1781@reddit
Is there a technical reason that Congress couldn’t insist that the Fed start buying bonds from the market and then dissolve them? The Fed exists at the discretion of the US government. If you say “in exchange for continuing to have the right to mint US-sanctioned currency, you will eat these losses on the debt until we hit x% of gdp.”
Yes, I know that corruption among the elites (Congress and bankers) would prevent that from ever happening, but it seems plausible, technically speaking.
Lost_Birthday_3138@reddit
Surprised not to see anyone mentioning this
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com
wisdomattend@reddit
Something, something, Nixon, gold standard.
GregLoire@reddit
The bond market is doing nothing of the sort. Long-term yields are around 5%. It's just pricing in a new Fed chair with a slightly more hawkish history on interest rates.
The Fed can just buy bonds directly, using money it prints and lends itself. Yes, this will also signal that inflation control is being deprioritized. But it will prop up the bond market and prevent a sovereign debt spiral.
LesnBOS@reddit
It's been doing that already
GregLoire@reddit
The Fed is not currently doing Quantitative Easing and hasn't been for a few years.
fedfuzz1970@reddit
Two things happened which caught my attention. Several weeks ago, China offered $6B in bonds to the investment community. Despite a lower return than U.S. bonds, the offering was oversold by a factor of 30 ($118B). The buyers went for safety and predictability when comparing China to U.S. The other incident was the UAE asking the U.S. for a loan, despite owning $95B in U.S. bonds. These type of loans, which are usually not repaid but renewed, are to keep holders from selling our bonds prior to maturity, which drives up the rate that must be offered on new issues.
TernarySquare0123@reddit
This is the way I see it, too. We're going in the direction of an interest-driven catabolic collapse even if the end date is a big question mark. And we can't completely stop it - we risk triggering it if we try. The rest of the world is understandable reorganizing their finances as best they can in recognition of the unfolding new paradigm.
I'm confident one or more groups modeled all of the scenarios, and I think that we just have to turn on the TV to see what they discovered:
The best chances are with infinite growth in the economy and the population, which translates to destroying competition (Iran etc.) and conquering lands/peoples for extraction (Greenland etc.).
My only other "suggestion" would be to trigger the bond market collapse immediately, while China is still reliant on US consumers / before China finally kickstarts its own consumerism. Then pray they bail the US out in what would effectively be a peaceful inversion of the Jr./Sr. partner arrangement.
(Personally: I am pro-degrowth so I don't necessarily want to kick the can any further. Better economic collapse than ecological imho.)
On that note I think the US trying to escape this crisis through exceptional means is basically the most likely WWIII scenario. Not necessarily soon - but historically, what else does a desperate superpower do in a last ditch effort to escape the inescapable?
throwaway661375735@reddit
Which is why Trump, who has repeatedly stated he is all about America first, is attacking other countries, will-nilly... But always countries he knows are weak, or have no ties to China nor Russia (and maybe Iran too).
MarzipanSea417@reddit
Does this line up with the theory that the USD is being intentionally crashed? And that digital ID will coincide with forced digital currency (zero freedom anonymity)?
ConcessionStandSteve@reddit
It's intentional, and the oligarchs are in on it. See, they want to shift the world from Western dominance to BRICS, and to do this requires kicking the legs out from under the financial foundation, the US dollar.
Why are Trump, Musk, Theil, etc. all visiting China during what is an official state meeting? Why are all these figures so deadset on harming the US economy? They are aligned with BRICS to usher in Eastern dominance and dismantle democracy.
Project 2025 was just the political playbook for the ultimate goal of destabilizing the US. The architects of Project 2025 likely didn't foresee this and were driven by their own racial motives, while the oligarchs and foreign actors ultimately wanted to shift financial global power.
throwaway661375735@reddit
Tjete was also a Project 2026 playbook, if you want to research some more.
Material_Student_487@reddit
Yeah, Ray Dalio has the most comprehensive modern work on these scenarios and how they are most likely to play out.
https://www.bridgewater.com/big-debt-crises/principles-for-navigating-big-debt-crises-by-ray-dalio.pdf
The above is a link for his work most relevant to your post.
rematar@reddit
He's ok. I prefer Robert Rios (Peruvian Bull). He has a Substack. The Dollar Endgame is a good starting point.
https://substack.com/@peruvianbull
TheGoodBunny@reddit
It's paid. No free resources?
rematar@reddit
Quite a few of the articles don't require a subscription.
Here's a different link that should take you to part 1 of The Dollar Endgame.
https://online.fliphtml5.com/lvrgy/plwk/files/shot.jpg
ThatFUTGuy@reddit
You haven’t factored something in.
The US in my opinion is on a demolition course for currency destruction. This is an architecture design.
They could turn this back and try to minimise the debt but this means they’d have to minimise their global hegemony.
It would be much easier for the US to continue printing at ridiculous rates and becoming indebted and then enacting a currency switch to a brand new stable crypto coin or piggy backing off existing coins such as ETH or BTC.
It physically is an escape outlet and one which can grow at exponential rates eclipsing FX and normal currency movements.
I’m going to bet that just as the US Dollar death looks certain, the treasury pivots to cryptocurrency and announces their own federally backed coin. BTC is probably unlikely due to China having a great sovereign collection of coins.
Either way, Blockchain is a nations way out and one which they’ll use imo.
KieferSutherland@reddit
What you're describing is a changing world order. Every world power goes to the printers and prints themselves off the top.
See this short version Ray dalio video https://youtu.be/BB2r_eOjsPw
There's a longer version on his channel
DukeRedWulf@reddit
You could have said all of this in half the words if you hadn't use AI to write your post.
ISB-Dev@reddit
Irrelevant. Address the points made. They are factually correct.
SavingsDimensions74@reddit
Please stop
Lost_Birthday_3138@reddit
There's one of these in every thread and I assume they think they're clever or something?
DurtyGenes@reddit
Also includes "not this, but that" and a "here's the catch" (phrased as "trap" in this case).
Ihaveamazingdreams@reddit
This is in almost every AI post I see now. Why do they like this word so much?
DukeRedWulf@reddit
I don't know, but it's become so prevalent over the last six months or so.. XD
Firefly_2005@reddit
It’s not that it’s become so prevalent, it’s that it’s become so quietly prevalent. The people think it’s just AI gradually becoming ubiquitous. You feel it deep in your bones that things aren’t quite right. Nobody protested. Nobody noticed. Nobody shouted.
And gradually, quietly, people stopped taking notice.
tawhuac@reddit
There is no math or model which can fix this.
The math works only as long as the ponzi scheme does. When it doesn't any more, then something has to happen which resets the game. That is usually a war, a crisis, or some new system which starts from scratch.
TraditionalLaw7763@reddit
Is this why a few countries have cashed in all of their US bonds? Are they preemptively getting their money out before shit goes really bad? I saw where Belgium and Greenland did this… but I’m not educated enough on the subject to figure out why they did it .
mediathink@reddit
Borrow like there’s no tomorrow Because even if there is you’re going to be paying it back with less valuable money
stars_sky_night@reddit
Printer goes brrr
DocWallaD@reddit
Most likely outcome is something akin to the leaving the gold standard. We will likely move to a digital currency in the not too distant future. The groundwork is actually already in place to replace swift as well to make this a reality.
Welcome programmable money with theoretical expiration dates and limits on what it can be used for. What do you think all the data centers are for? It's not AI cat videos..
Lost_Birthday_3138@reddit
WTF happened in 1971?
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
Decent-Box-1859@reddit
Yes, Catherine Austin Fitts has some good videos about this.
sammygalaxy@reddit
If US treasury debt is repriced as perpetual bonds, ie no principal repayment, the yield would have to go up approx 3% pa.
Successful-Try-8506@reddit
I remember reading that almost all countries that hit a debt to GDP fatio of 130% have defaulted on their sovereign debt.
GlitteringEvening713@reddit
I remember reading that too. We are at 124%
chesherkat@reddit
You're leaving our that this isn't just a us issue at the moment. Japan, UK, etc are going through the same thing.
The we got a sneak peek when the carried yen trade started unwinding...if Japans money becomes expensive it dries out us investments.
All of that to say, the money printer will have to go extra burrr to do what they need it to do. Soon enough we'll have to be hauling around our trump 250$ bills in wheel barrloes just to buy a loaf of bread.
johnryan433@reddit
The only real exit is physical commodities
dcmathproof@reddit
I see a lot of "tax the rich" or other suggestions... But honestly, the rich already pay the lion share of tax and even if you made a 100% tax or something it would not solve the problem.... We have a spending /money printing problem... Not a taxing problem... (see the laffer curve)
Creepy_Valuable6223@reddit
I've read that during the Great Depression, the stock market collapsed - but it didn't go to zero. Many bonds, however, went to zero. It's funny that the stock market is probably the safer bet.
Creepy_Valuable6223@reddit
"Americans lost roughly half their purchasing power in a decade. Nobody announced it. Nobody called it collapse. The system kept functioning. People just got gradually poorer and couldn't explain exactly why."
That's not entirely correct. There were far more people in unions in those days and their wages were pegged to inflation; the same with government employees.
Still it was bad.
So, women entered the workforce. In huge numbers. So that meant that the purchasing ability of families didn't go down as much as it would have otherwise.
No private sector unions now to speak of, and everyone who can drag him or herself out of the house is employed. There is no buffer.
PupDiogenes@reddit
Who has accounted for another factor: the tipping point of US$ hegemony. At a certain point, the US$ gets to a point where it isn’t American financial systems that determine the rate of collapse, but global ones.
Chucking100s@reddit
Check out treasury repurchases.
They're buying off the run bonds yielding 2-3% and issuing bonds yielding 4-5%.
The primary dealers, which absorb a lot of bond volume, say they're stuffed with them.
Off the run bonds, like 4 years, 13 years, 27 years, etc are particularly difficult to sell.
FormerNeighborhood80@reddit
AI bot
Gyirin@reddit
Lol
Kiwizoo@reddit
At some point, the Ponzi scheme of ‘the market’ will implode - trust in it is plummeting, and we’ve all witnessed with our own eyes just how easily it can be manipulated by those
In power. So yes, I think a serious financial crisis is coming soon to the US. Call me paranoid, but it feels intentional. There are now too many grown-up rich Computer-Club geeks who are now hell bent on having their revenge on us. Anyway, the collapse of fiat doesn’t worry me so much as the resulting switch over to digital token-based transactions. Part peak surveillance capitalism, and part Panopticon, it will be a total fever dream for our corporate tech overlords. Nothing in that timeline excites me.
click-monster@reddit
What happens when they use "fake" inflation (== printing money) and there's "real" inflation (scarcity due to climate change killing crops, energy/Hormuz etc) happening at the same time?
notcrazypants@reddit
The end
__scan__@reddit
Did you use an LLM to write this, or have you picked up all of the LLM writing tropes and incorporated them into your own writing?
TanteJu5@reddit
Do you want a medal for that, detective?
__scan__@reddit
No, just an answer.
PrairieFire_withwind@reddit
So infinite growth on a finite planet is... Impossible?
Lovely AI writeup that misses the actual underpinnings of the economy.
We get less return on just about everything we extract than we used to 50 or 100 years ago.
Yes, extraction is more efficient in many ways, you get more bushels per acre etc. etc. but you are also dumping expensive fertilizers on that field, expensive pesticides, that copper mine has more energy put inot the extraction and refining to get the same yield, etc. etc.
As long as we harvested the low hanging fruit first then yeah, at some point the monetary system that is based upon those natural resources will, actually, run into a wall.
Nate hagens has a few people on his show about this very topic. feel free to give the great simplification a listen, you might see how all of this was a known quantity years ago.
Lanky_Path1601@reddit
Yeah, I believe we’re heading into a major liquidity crisis where everyone wants to be the borrower and no one wants to be the lender.
Especially since the start of the Iran war, the GCC, historically acting as a counterbalance by buying Bonds from their oil revenue, has fallen away. This only increases the pressure on the bond market, and if yields go up, so does the rest of the market.
If we also take the accelerating energy crisis into consideration, this will also drive yields higher.
A possible outcome I could imagine is that the US government will force people to buy its debt/bonds through stablecoins/CBDCs, which are backed by government bonds. If you force everyone to use those as currency, plus drive up the stock market with huge manipulation, it could act against the bond market meltdown.
Though this seems highly speculative and, in my opinion, wouldn’t be enough to effectively halt the meltdown or significantly slow it down.
Bandits101@reddit
Another good explanation of the US bond market, thanks. If anything is suited to collapse it is definitely the upward spiralling debt not only the US but the whole world. For now extending and pretending is holding but eventually something will remove the wrong block from the Jenga tower.
03263@reddit
Is it mostly because of the AI bubble?
TransitJohn@reddit
AI slop.
mr_misanthropic_bear@reddit
Why do you say this? Nothing seems uncanny to me.
TransitJohn@reddit
Because the very opening sentence is AI generated. The juxtaposition of the moronic 'sitting with' therapy-speak verb phrase with the non-sequitur usage of 'clean' as an adjective that is devoid of semantic modification to the noun it addresses is obviously LLM generated, if you've spent any time using them.
TanteJu5@reddit
So, is that a crime here?
Ghostwoods@reddit
It's the current go-to slur that bots use.
NihiloZero@reddit
To be fair, a lot of real humans see big words and just assume the author must be a bot. Really sucks for those of us that were pretentious and long-winded before AI took over everything.
TanteJu5@reddit
Maybe the self appointed AI police here should just publish an official glossary and style guide so we know exactly how to write to get their blessing. It’s gotten incredibly toxic lately. The mods need to start penalizing people who blindly label any post as AI slop with 0 proof. It's actively discouraging people from making meaningful posts.
TanteJu5@reddit
The real problem is that we're still playing by the outdated rules of a price based economy. Things like the sovereign debt spiral, the bond market and the Fed's supposedly impossible dilemma aren't even real, they're entirely made up concepts. They're just accounting tricks that have completely lost touch with physical reality. The wealthy rigged the rules of this game a long time ago and the rest of us myself included just selfishly play along.
At its core, money only has value if there's scarcity. Traditional economists are always desperately searching for a policy fix or a soft landing simply because they can't bring themselves to ditch the price system altogether. But the only real solution is to tear down the entire machinery of finance and politics. If the bond market collapses, it’s not an actual, physical disaster. It’s just the burning away of the paper scaffolding that has choked our production and distribution for the last 100 years. The only true way out of this mess is to hand the reins over to the people who actually understand how the physical world works i.e., the engineers, scientists and technical experts.
systematk@reddit
I started designing such a plan in Dec 2024
TanteJu5@reddit
Add more info from this sub r/Technocracy to your plan. Start with the technical wiki
systematk@reddit
Why would that even be your starting point when you have no idea what my plan even consists of?
TanteJu5@reddit
Couldn't hurt to throw an idea out there
timesuck47@reddit
I’ve often wondered why the world isn’t governed by problem solvers such as you describe in your last sentence.
TanteJu5@reddit
The whole system is rigged against them. The exact skills that make someone a brilliant engineer or researcher are huge liabilities on the campaign trail. If you want to climb the ladder and gain power, you have to be willing to spin the facts and ignore the data just to keep your donors and voting blocs happy. That’s exactly how a cash strapped Trump managed to bankroll his 2nd term campaign.
rmontalvan@reddit
Fuuuuuu
offdutybrazilian@reddit
Heres the only way out:
Elon finds a super fuel on the moon. The entire global energy's system moves to make super fuel the main energy resource. The U.S. somehow manipulates the markets to make the U.S. dollar the super petrol dollar. This will force everyone globally who needs energy to hold billions or trillions in super petrol dollars worth of fiat. The Fed quietly devalues the currency through inflation forcing everyone on earth holding super petrol dollars to help subsidize America's debts. The political system sees this as an opportunity to take on larger debts. Elon finds super oil 3 on Mars and the system lives to see another decade.
I'm joking... we're screwed.
NyriasNeo@reddit
You already answered you own question, and I quote, "Nobody announced it. Nobody called it collapse. The system kept functioning. People just got gradually poorer and couldn't explain exactly why."
It is not a collapse. It is a slow re-distribution. You are exactly right that the last move is always paying with inflation (aka printing money). People with asset (also correlated with people with financial knowledge) probably have built in hedge against inflation anyway (real estate, 30 year fix mortgages, stocks, gold, ...). So the net result is that the K-shaped economy is going to be more extreme.
BTW, it is not very different from what is happening now, except the source of inflation is different (covid supply chain issues, oil at hormus ....).
There is no exit but if you on the top of the K, you do not need one, and if you are on the bottom, well, good luck!
Viridian_Crane@reddit
Walter... whats a bond market?
DashingDino@reddit
Regardless of how it unfolds it's obvious the current trajectory is just not sustainable and we know it ends with living under austerity.
frontofthewagon@reddit
But assets. Get rid of cash. Land, gold, silver
Loopuze1@reddit
Gold and silver won’t be worth shit compared to some canned food and bullets.
TheHistorian2@reddit
My can opener investments are looking good!
7BH13L7H@reddit
I've said that my entire life!
"You can't eat gold!"
"How are you going to make ammunition from scratch?"
Effective-Bandicoot8@reddit
Taraxian@reddit
Everyone seems to be betting the farm on an AI revolution fixing all of our problems -- in the macroeconomic terms we're talking here AI boosters talk about how AI is "inherently massively deflationary" due to skyrocketing productivity followed by plummeting employment
That has its own really obvious problems but it is the only way out of the inflation/debt crisis you're describing, making the real cost of living much cheaper without actually paying humans more money
Traditional_Way1052@reddit
I spoke to a friend about this, and he said... you will have bigger problems than retirement if this occurs. Like.... Easy for you to say. You can return home to Europe, my dude.
Masta0nion@reddit
I’m assuming a massive loss of jobs due to AI would make it even more difficult to rebound
SaiyanPrinceAbubu@reddit
Finally a central bank post that isn't goldbug quackery
TameTheAuroch@reddit
What you describe could only happen in a vacuum. Let me cite Stein’s Law: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop."
dakinekine@reddit
The only thing that seems like a potential solution is stable coins and the genius Act. The basic idea of being that any company that wants to issue stable coins must hold Us treasuries as backing. This, in theory, could create demand for treasuries when other nations are unwilling to purchase them.
Old_Crow_Yukon@reddit
I can't find any fault with this write up. It's not necessarily a done deal but it seems like there's a fair chance of things unfolding this way. Far less alarmist than how it usually goes in this sub - the appropriate amount of alarm I think.
Lailokos@reddit
It doesn't unwind, I think it could *pause* or tread water for a bit, but no, you're reading this right. What's needed against the economic hits of not enough oil/fertilizer is government support for those industries, which means of course governments spending more money. And the bond markets are going to *murder* anyone who wants a big package. Japan is doing better than I thought with that very situation, and still new PM is having to use nationalism and fights with China to get people behind her. Stalmer is suffering a bit worse than Truss (at least in terms of rates) too. I'm not sure how many 'straws' it takes, but the bonds aren't looking great for anyone. That's not ever happened as far as a I can tell? Even in the 70s we had *some* countries doing ok. Now, even India the world's 'biggest' grower is stagnating, K-shaped, authoritarian. And the outflows have started...