Finally drove a Supra after owning a Z4. Join me in my review rant that includes a few hot takes
Posted by xIcarus227@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 142 comments
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the_lamou@reddit
Your final conclusion is exactly right, and something a lot of people miss: the more confident a car makes you feel, the less fun it is to drive. Confidence = control, and as the bard said "if you feel in control, you're not going fast enough." I had far more fun sliding my FJ Cruiser around back roads than I have driving my e-Tron GT. Hell, I have more fun in my $400 2006 police surplus Ford E-150: it's loud, it never feels stable, the back end gives out without warning, and you're constantly in danger of doing a barrel roll, but it's FUN.
chadwicke619@reddit
Heh I don’t agree with this at all. The more confident a car makes me feel, the harder I feel comfortable pushing it, and the more fun I have. Like, what you describe in your last sentence is not my idea of daily driver fun at all. I don’t want to slide around and shit - I want to go surgically fast.
the_lamou@reddit
I suppose the difference for me is I understand that my 1979 Honda Prelude is about as fast as it's possible for a car to be while still being pushable on public roads without being a reckless asshole.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I definitely believe that, and I think your examples are on point as well. The first car that made me realize this was an i30N, people around me seemed to think it's not that fast, and I got sucked into that mentality because track performance is indeed not that amazing.
When I drove one I finally understood: they didn't care about laptimes. All they cared about was making a fun to drive car, and boy did they succeed because that car's a riot to drive.
How would you rate that e-Tron as an overall car? I'm not big into EVs but the depreciation on those makes them look like a bargain ngl.
the_lamou@reddit
As an overall car, the e-Tron is basically as good as it gets. It's the perfect daily: smooth, easy to drive, spacious, plenty of cargo room, brutally fast when you want it to be, and shockingly nimble (to the point of being terrifying sometimes). Plus I spent like two years without once going to a gas station until I bought the van for a move.
It's my second e-Tron GT lease, and I might get another one when this one is up, unless the Type-01 really wows or the i3 delivers on the range and charging promise.
Jordan_Jackson@reddit
At first I was a little skeptical about Toyota teaming up with BMW for the Supra but all the feedback I have heard has been positive.
BMW can be very hit or miss and is one of those brands of cars that I suggest people lease, rather than finance because of various issues. It is also a German brand and while German stuff can be reliable and work wonderfully, it can also be over-engineered to a point that just boggles the mind.
Yet everywhere I have looked, has praised the BMW innards of the Supra. The engine is rock-solid, the ride is great and the whole car is a great car to own and drive.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I think you hit the nail on the head with BMWs being hit or miss. People just assume every BMW is going to be this sporty fun to drive car, but the reality is that it depends on so many things.
People don't seem to realize that BMW is not that far from Mercedes' philosophy where the normie cars are super comfortable while the AMGs are hardcore. If you drive a 420i back-to-back with a Z4 you wouldn't even believe they're from the same manufacturer when it comes to driving experience. Never mind going up to the full M models which are even more hardcore.
The Supra is a fantastic car, I totally understand the Toyota being disappointed that it's not a 100% Toyota conception, but financial reality isn't always compatible to what people want. Toyota would've had to create a bespoke chassis and engine for the MK5 Supra which would've placed its asking price somewhere in the stratosphere.
People forget that the MK4 Supra Turbo was heavily criticized for being expensive at the time, exactly because it had an almost-bespoke engine. The MK5's pricing would've been even worse.
Active-Device-8058@reddit
People don't seem to realize that BMW is not that far from Mercedes' philosophy where the normie cars are super comfortable while only the AMG cars are hardcore.
I liken BMW to being multiple brands in one (ignoring that the M division sorta is a seperate entity, that is.) It's why I don't get upset when BMW has 'terrible' designs for their low end cars. If you factor in all the variants of their vehicles, they produce as many cars as many different brands combined. They're covering a HUGE spread.
H0RSEPAIN@reddit
The division lines and bolding this is AI generated. Why?
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Just lol. This is 100% hand written.
BahnMe@reddit
You’re right about one thing, I don’t know how many times online and reviewer consensus has been totally wrong.
After driving a 987.2 S 6spd for 80k miles, I thought I’d be disappointed with the 718 2.5 GTS. I was about to buy a 981 GTS but wanted to go check out the 718 at the dealer just in case.
Yeah, online people have no idea what they’re talking about. The 718 GTS steered way better, more usable street power and even sounded great much to my surprise. Different than my 987.2 S but still a great sound and with tbh, better throttle response.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I'm starting to think the same sometimes, and it stresses upon the importance of actually trying out the cars you're about to buy, especially back-to-back.
I agree about the sound of the 4-cyl 718. The internet portrays them as horrible, but I rented a base Cayman and I enjoyed the hell out of it. Sounds like a mini V8 to me, plus the 7250RPM redline goes brr.
Haven't had the pleasure of driving a 987 or 981, would sure love to but they're so rare in these parts. People in my country have a fetish with turbo-diesels for some reason, it's hard to get a hold of decent drivers cars.
bc10551@reddit
To each their own but I hated how the 4 cylinder 718 sounded when I test drove one
BahnMe@reddit
Mini V8 is a great description.
People don’t believe me but my 2.5 GTS sounds better and has better throttle response than my V8 biturbo m177 C63 stock. This is probably mostly because the C63 has regulatory sound limiting at revs below 4500 but it’s noticeable.
gothiicserpent@reddit
Agree, the big takeaway of all this is to go out and drive cars and stop regurgitating reviewers. I wonder how many POV reviewers just regurgitate things they've already heard because they were already biased to think a certain way to begin with.
e.g. I turo'd a Z performance expecting to be underwhelmed. It was better than I expected. Conversely I Turo'd a base 718 and it was cool but didnt like that turbo tuning. Think I'd need a higher trim to have fun. Drove a base 981 with PSE that was much more fun. I'm Turo'ing a '22 z4 m40i in a few weeks, really looking forward to it
die-microcrap-die@reddit
Fixed it a bit for you.
PEEWUN@reddit
Yawn.
flatpetey@reddit
I really wish the Supra had been available in a convertible or targa, I prefer its styling a bit more but wanted the open air.
The steering feel is a real point of comparison and compared to the Porsche's it is a bit hard to not want to just buy a used one over a newer Supra/Z4.
dontreadragebait@reddit
See if they’d just released a manual I’d have a reason to give a shit about either of them
jk-jk@reddit
Both the Supra and Z4 did have a manual.
dontreadragebait@reddit
I didn't know they got around to it 4 years after release, thanks for this update.
Snow_source@reddit
Supra's had one since 2023 and the Z4 since 2024 bud.
bahama_llama1615@reddit
They both do
K_R_A_K_E_N_540@reddit
So for people that are into convertibles, getting the Z4 is like getting "more" for your money since you have the added benefit of it being convertible.
strongmanass@reddit
My hot take is that convertibles are close to the perfect form factor. The capability of all modern performance cars makes them boring for dynamic driving at road speeds IMO. Convertibles make a basic drive for more enjoyable to me because they change the perception of speed and make you experience the surroundings - although YMMV if your surroundings are coal rollers instead of tree-lined country roads.
Some people hate the feeling of wind in their hair/past their ears so fair enough.
Bombadilo_drives@reddit
I was on the fence, but I just rented a vert Mustang 5.0 in the high desert for a week and I am fully converted. There's just so much drama with the wind and the big v8 roar every time you hit the accelerator.
And you're so much more present in the world, versus my coupe where I'm all sealed up in my little bubble listening to my podcast. With the top down, you drive through a wooded area and you smell the forest, you can see everything. It felt more like being on a bike in terms of really interacting with your surroundings vs your little mobile room. Loved it
HURCANADA@reddit
Two big downsides of convertibles
1 - lack of structural rigidity results in sloppy steering. My ND doesn't have this problem because Mazda is god, but my 360 and I imagine many other convertibles do
2 - The aural feedback is actually a bit muted. Wind noise drowns out exhaust, lack of a cabin cancels out all resonance. I struggle to hear my straight piped 360 sometimes, my Miata sounds better with the roof up
gaius49@reddit
I'm interested what you mean by this. In my experience, what kills steering feel is power steering, not chassis stiffness. Some of the best steering feel I've ever enjoyed is in my Cobra and my Morgan, neither has ever been accused of having a rigid chassis or frame.
HURCANADA@reddit
You tell the car to go in a specific direction and it sways and doesn't land where you want it to due to lack of tortional rigidity. It's actually a night and day difference in my 360 with the top up vs down, the top up clamps down on the chassis enough to improve the accuracy of the steering
Kloness@reddit
Opposite for me! I can hear my C8Z much better with the top and rear glass down. Convertible has been great so far, it’s just hot as hell outside right now.
HURCANADA@reddit
The C8 is a bit of a weird case where there's like no noise in the cabin. It's the weirdest thing. I don't get why they engineered it this way
Cars-and-Coffee@reddit
I know it’s not exactly a convertible but it’s the same with my C6 targa top. The engine and exhaust are way louder with the top off (though it’s pretty loud regardless).
armchairracer@reddit
Have you driven other newer convertibles besides the ND? The 360 went into production nearly 30 years ago, chassis tuning has come a long way since then.
HURCANADA@reddit
I have driven a modern Z4 and 718 Boxster. Modern Z4 I share the same opinions as OP, just boring steering and not particularly sharp. 718 Boxster is not as sharp as the Cayman's, but only about 10-20% worse. As good as I've felt besides my Miata. So all else being equal coupe vs convertible point still stands, just depends on how picky you are. I think most people really don't care as it's not a common point of conversation even among most enthusiasts, last person I remember talking about the compromise was Chris Harris when he was reviewing some droptop (458?). Saying this as somebody who owns two convertibles and a coupe
gimpwiz@reddit
It used to be pretty common then to make a car and later figure out how to chop the roof off, add a bunch of bracing below to accommodate it, etc. Was a very common complaint that convertibles had scuttle shake out the wazoo. Designing convertibles from day zero makes a pretty big difference by itself, not to mention years of improvements in materials, manufacturing, and CAD.
Psygnosis7@reddit
The E85 Z4 Roadster has a stiffer chassis than most e46 models.
Dr__Nick@reddit
The Boxster didn’t have this issue.
upsidedownwriting@reddit
purpose built convertibles don't have that issue. mx-5 and z4 have the structural whatnots along the floor line.
strongmanass@reddit
Your 360 and ND are 15 years apart. That's a long time for materials engineering. The ND is the least expensive convertible sports car on the market now, so I'd expect everything current to have better rigidity than the 360. From a quick google search the 360 Spider's torsional rigidity seems to be about 8,500 Nm/degree. That would make it less stiff than the Z4 of the same period, let alone today.
I can't imagine struggling to hear a straight-piped exhaust under any circumstances. Any engine noise that gets muted is made up for by birdsong which I'd rather hear. But that's just personal preference.
monjessenstein@reddit
I'd say your 2nd point will differ greatly depending on what car it is. My MR2 is far more audible with the roof down, though probably also helped by the driver sitting effectively next to the intake.
YozaSkywalker@reddit
I'm still holding on to my Z4M roadster because it's the closest thing to a motorcycle without actually riding one.
gimpwiz@reddit
Cough. Elise
gaius49@reddit
Cough. NA miata. Cough. MR2 Spyder. Cough Triumph Spitfire.
waftedfart@reddit
I agree. Yeah, it can be more noisy and you sometimes hear more body creaks, but a 'vert is the best of both worlds if you aren't some purist.
seamus_mc@reddit
Modern convertibles are pretty quiet these days
Ayatori@reddit
You really ought to try a motorcycle if you haven't already.
My S2000 is probably my favorite drive out of every car I've ever had but a motorcycle takes everything enjoyable from the convertible experience (aside from some fun pedal work) and cranks it up to 100.
enaK66@reddit
My girlfriend will never get on a motorcycle with me. But she will ride in a convertible. So miata is the answer.
strongmanass@reddit
I started with motorcycles. I love them but the risk factor is too high for my comfort level these days. Convertibles are my compromise.
vaultdweller1223@reddit
I get self conscious in convertibles. I love sports car but hate the attention they draw. Convertables multiply that downside for me.
Presidigo@reddit
100% agree a convertible at low to moderate speeds is incredible esp a modern one
ProAmCanAm@reddit
Convertibles are a great way to find out you have allergies. Also, fuck Live Oak trees
zeno0771@reddit
strongmanass@reddit
Sorry about your allergies, but the oak trees didn't do anything wrong.
MRDR1NL@reddit
The z4 also adds 130kg
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I'm curious, where'd you get that number from? My Z4 is 1603 kg in the official document, the Supra was 1540-something.
MRDR1NL@reddit
Z4 is 1.640Kg on the spec sheet in the Netherlands (maybe it's different in other regions. EU vs US spec?).
The supra isn't sold here so no up to date local spec sheet. It is 1520kg according to the original floval press release (which could be outdated), and 1495kg according to ADAC (3rd party tester). So thought 1510 would be a safe bet.
For both I made sure it was the 6cyl manual.
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit
You aren't really getting more for your money, you are simply spending more and getting more?
$59,595 for a base manual Supra 3.0,
$73,250 for a base manual Z4 M40i.
Hell, you can even go down to the 4 Cylinder Z4, and it isn't that much cheaper than the Supra 3.0 with the full on B58 6 Cylinder.
$57,450 for a base Z4 30i,
$59,595 for a base Supra 3.0 with an automatic or manual.
gogojack@reddit
I guess it depends on what you want to spend your money on.
I've driven a Z40 M40i, and I'd choose it over the Supra. I like convertibles, to put it mildly. My current ride is the first fixed-roof car I've had in 25 years. Helps that I live in Arizona where open-air driving is almost a year-round activity.
Cessnaporsche01@reddit
True, but on top of being a convertible, a bit lighter, and a bit more engaging to drive, the Z4 is also not just the last good-looking BMW, but a downright gorgeous car in its own right, while the Supra... has a little bit of blobfish face going on
megacookie@reddit
Well in this case they are still two cars being sold by different manufacturers, and Toyota simply sells their version for less money than BMW does. I don't think it's so much a "convertible tax" as a "BMW tax" explaining the price difference between the two.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
You're absolutely correct when taking new prices into account, but I'd like to point out that these cars have been discontinued for 6 months now. The only new cars you're getting now are what's left on the dealer lots, and I imagine stock has dwindled a lot during this time.
I'm not sure what the prices look like in the US on the used market, but in Europe the Supra tends to be about 5k more expensive than the Z4 on average. It's one of the main reasons I got one.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
Might be true when new, but the Z4 depreciates way faster than the Supra. You can pretty easily find a Z4 M40i with lower miles at a cheaper price than a comparable Supra 3.0.
They’re about to end production or have ended it already, so these will just be compared as used cars going forward.
aprtur@reddit
I was thinking this, as well, but OP mentioned they're in Europe, and I believe MSRP on the Toyota shoots away up compared to the "bargain" we get in the US, and the BMW actually comes down a little bit in price.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Definitely, in my opinion the choice between these 2 cars (as long as the prices are in the same courtyard) boils down to whether you want a coupe or a roadster.
Sure, you get a bit more with the BMW because the interior is better and it has a few more options, but as far as the driving experience goes it's really that simple.
houVanHaring@reddit
Nice review! A question: have you driven other Z4's? Like non-M versions? In my experience there can be quite a big difference in BMW's between Mxx and the more regular xxx versions. Just never driven the Z4 M40. Maybe the myths about the Z4 vs Supra is for the tamer versions?
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Thanks! Yeah so the BMWs I drove so far (aside from the twins in this review) are a 2011 M135i, a 2018 440i (this wasn't an M-lite) and a 2022 M340i.
In terms of driving experience, the Z4 and Supra are in a different league compared to the rest, no question about it. Everything is tighter, more purposeful and much more enjoyable.
From the rest I'd place the M135i and M340i in the same approximate ballpark, the M135i is helped by the lower weight so it's going to be a little more nimble and fun. Only then does the 440i come in, and it's a league below the M-lites. It just feels like normal traffic but with a strong engine, the fact that the one I drove didn't have an LSD definitely didn't help its case. But gyat damn was it comfortable.
I've seen people make the mistake of thinking the Z4 is the same as something like an M340i, so it's possible the myths come from there. People don't seem to realize that the Z4 gets the M4's front suspension, and the back axle is still more rigid than the 3-series even though it's not as rigid as full M cars.
asiansensation78@reddit
Good insights. I am so sad about BMW losing their way with steering feel.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Thank you. Yes, this aspect irks me a lot as well, which is why I'm looking at Porsche next. The 718, albeit more expensive, definitely nails this aspect (I drove one).
NoctD@reddit
All I have to say is this OP's line makes the review...
TheRealAbiril@reddit
I actually chuckled at that part, and I know exactly what he means with this car, it scares the shit out of me regularly to the point where I could carry way more speed with a 99 Boxster than the 2020 z4.
Managing the back end on a normal width canyon road feels like a battle of wills more than anything. The weight transfers like crazy from corner to corner and the torque coming out of the car is enough to unstick it at a moments notice regardless.
A better driver than I (with better tires), I'm sure could get more out of it without fearing a premature meeting with God. But as someone who had only driven slow cars fast previously it's a welcome challenge
yardshark09@reddit
This line made me laugh so hard.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
Interesting
pyrolizard@reddit
To clarify, you're reviewing the zf-8 speed gearbox right?
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Yes, ZF-8 in both. I'd love to drive the manuals, but they're way rare.
argote@reddit
I haven't noticed any head-bobbing at all (in Comfort and
D) on my Z4 M40i. How hard are you pushing the pedal when this happens? Sounds a bit abnormal from what I've gathered on Bimmerpost.xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I did actually search for this at some point and nobody was complaining about it which I thought was strange.
By head bobbing I mean lurching, the car lunges forward while the gearshift is happening. It doesn't do so in a rough manner, there's no grinding, jolting or something like that, it just smoothly lunges forward. And just to confirm, this happens in Comfort and D.
This mostly happens between 1st and 2nd, especially when the gearbox is cold and especially when I'm very light on the throttle. The problem mostly goes away with mid-level throttle. I can excuse weird shifts when cold but I expect them to go away when up to temp.
The rest of the gears are nowhere near as bad, but I can clearly feel when they're being shifted, something I didn't really experience in the Supra nor in a 440i we have in the family.
One more related issue is that 1st gear is so weird. It's like the torque converter locks up and releases too fast, the drivetrain jumps too quickly from 100% engine braking into acceleration. This is the aspect which does my head in, which is why I sometimes tell it to stay in 2nd.
Are you not experiencing any of these things? I doubt there's something wrong with the gearbox, it's been doing this ever since I bought the car at 2.5k miles. And I did not detect any changes over time. Feels like the map is simply too aggro.
And I doubt the dude before put something like xHP on it after so few miles, the dealer would've probably detected it.
hawaii_dude@reddit
I don't understand why so many companies have such terrible steering feel. It's not just electronic power steering as a whole, there are decent ones out there, and Porsche seems to do it well. If anything it seems like the EPS tuning has gotten worse and more numb over time.
RascalRandal@reddit
Who else does it well besides Porsche and super cars?
TheWolfofBinance@reddit
i will take this to my grave: My first gen, 2017 BRZ was superior to my 2021 Supra in every single way: steering, suspsension, chassis, seats, interior (yes, interior), even the sound system, and looks. The only way thing the Supra had better was the Engine. People gotta stop wasting money on these obviously compromised cars.
Kilo3407@reddit
I don't know about suspension and interior, but I'm with you on the rest, especially the looks. A90 is so ugly vs the concept
birdseye-maple@reddit
Yeah the steering part is just a dealbreaker -- I can't do modern BMWs. I hate that because I have been a huge BMW fan for so long, but their EPS choices ruined it for a lot of enthusiasts. I just drove a 2014 S-Class that has decent EPS which is just crazy compared to BMW. I rented an M235I like 5 years ago for my birthday weekend and ended up googling "M235I sucks" because of the steering situation.
Depressing that Toyota couldn't tune the Supra differently enough to make a big difference. I'd love to consider these cars but they're just out for me, steering is just too important.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
FWIW the steering in these 2 is better than other modern BMWs. I've driven an M340i (2022), a 440i (2018) and an M135i (2012 I think? with the N55) and they were all really awful, particularly the 440i. They're almost completely dead, you couldn't understand what's happening to the front wheels at all.
It feels like BMW (or Toyota, they might've had an input in this) realized that their steering sucks but only put in a half-measure worth of effort into fixing it. It's the biggest drawback of these cars for sure, they're really not great. The 718 I rented on a track a few years ago completely shat on them in this aspect.
birdseye-maple@reddit
I'm surprised to hear that you thought the M135I was bad -- that has hydraulic and I'd have expected it to be good.
Yeah I'm getting a Porsche for my next fun car, either a 718 4.0 or 981 GTS, might go with the 718 as I've heard the steering is much better. I need to test drive!
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Wait wtf, I didn't even know it has hydraulic steering, I assumed it was electric on account of how bad I thought it was. Perhaps the tire pressure was too low? I didn't check beforehand.
Funny you say that about the 718, I'm actually eyeing a 718 4.0 GTS as an upgrade too. I tracked a 718 with the 2.0 engine, and it was really fantastic. The steering was great and the balance was superb, that thing wants to turn. Just think twice before turning off that TC, that car's a handful if you overdo it. Even the engine sound wasn't nearly as bad IRL as in videos, I actually kinda dig it.
I was legit struggling to find things I didn't like. The only caveat is to get one with the extended leather package, otherwise the interior is kinda spartan.
birdseye-maple@reddit
I mistyped, 135I in the US is hydraulic, M135I didn't come to the US.
If you drove the M135I then yeah that was electric.
Montague-Withnail@reddit
No F2x BMW has hydraulic steering- you're probably thinking of the older E8x 135i? (which interestingly in Europe was the only model of that chassis to get hpas other than the 1M Coupe)
birdseye-maple@reddit
Oh yeah, we didn't get the M135I actually, I was just thinking of the 135I
NoahFect@reddit
You can tinker with the steering on the 981, it's just software.
RazingsIsNotHomeNow@reddit
As an owner of an original Z4, who's test driven several newer BMWs it's so annoying knowing that BMW can make a decent EPS and just chooses not to. Somehow their first attempt was the best.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I'm really not sure what's happening over at BMW with their power steering. Other manufacturers seem to be dealing with this much better, Porsche in particular. I couldn't believe how much better the 718 was, and it's a car from the same approximate era.
I'd love to drive an original Z4, is the suspension as harsh as people say?
RazingsIsNotHomeNow@reddit
I think it might have something to do with an internal BMW safety mandate about how easy it is to turn the wheel even when you lost control or something resulting in oversized EPS motors that inherently dampen feedback.
I'm not sure how to answer regarding suspension. Probably not, but maybe. Depends on what you've heard. It's not like an Elise if you're worried, but you need to avoid potholes for sure. It has very little travel so harsh impacts are felt which is compounded by the seats being very sporty by BMW standards without much in the way of cushion. But within it's travel, damping and rebound rates are actually very good, and the suspension can soak up Autobahn miles and cornering undulations great. Honestly a lot of the issues would be minimized if you put the contemporary 3 series seat into it.
HustlingBackwards96@reddit
Completely agree. I rented a Supra as part of my car buying research project and the steering was a colossal letdown. Granted, I'm coming from an 86, but it felt so disappointing.
I had been preparing to buy this car for years. The manual option was the final check box. Then I drove it. Sheesh
birdseye-maple@reddit
Yeah there was a time where I was seriously contemplating the M235I -- perfect size, love the looks, etc. but the drive killed all my interest. I was totally biased towards *loving* the M235I too, but the lack of connection and not knowing where you're at was a killer. Sucks because I was a hardcore E39 guy for like a decade.
Every time I consider a BMW (love the idea of the prior gen M5) I remember the steering and go back to ignoring BMW.
Side note - looking for a luxury sedan now and had the same experience with the LS460 F-sport, I was super hyped to try a new brand but on the test drive the steering was video game disconnected like the M235I but also with a weird huge dead zone with the lightest steering I've felt. I tried the 2014 S-Class and the steering is awesome for a lux barge, gonna buy one for my commute.
Slice5755@reddit
Why haul an S-class as one man daily on his commute? That's such a waste. At most, if you are using a car traveling alone often, don't go bigger than the E-class.
birdseye-maple@reddit
Disagree, the S-Class is more comfortable with more features. The E-Class to me is not that interesting unless you want a 1 car solution.
I'll also use it to pick people up from the airport, take groups out, but the main function will be an awful traffic commute over rough pavement -- it'll help me feel less stressed.
Attainted@reddit
Idk man a S65 convertible is pretty sweet.
Motorsport-@reddit
What do I need to know about the AMG SLK - always been interested
birdseye-maple@reddit
It's a lovely car, has a nice connection to the road and great sound. Passengers love the air scarf and it gets a lot more attention/looks/comments than you'd think. The steering feels more connected than the C63 and is delightful.
The achilles heal of this car and most Mercedes of this era (including gen 1 of the W204 C63) is the transmission. The 7G transmission is fine in more chill cars like an S-Class, it is a smooth auto that you can do some shifting in but not quickly. However in an AMG you want to be able to take it to red line and not have a bunch of super laggy shifts. The shifting at high RPM ruins my fun of the car, unless you want to leave it in auto and not experience high RPMs which isn't my thing.
The MCT wet clutch that came after the 7G is way better. It's not as fast as a dual clutch, but it's generally smooth and not particularly laggy. I shift it all the time in my facelift C63 (I drive in manual mode almost exclusively) and it doesn't let down on the experience.
I personally would skip any Merc that doesn't have at least the MCT unless you plan to manual swap. The SLK55 manual swapped would be an absolutely delightful car.
NoctD@reddit
I've lost interest in BMWs after the E46 generation, and in 20+ years they still can't give us the Ultimate Driving Machine. This has got to be bad engineering, because others can do EPS with better feel.
M4roon@reddit
Cool. That was fun to read. I'm always curious about our z4 cousins.
Last night there was a pristine silver and black z4 parked behind me outside my grocery store. I was trying to figure out which old dude in the store owned it. Turns out it was the milf behind me in line at the checkout. We both stared at each other's cars, and each other, and then drove off. Missed opportunity.
K1net3k@reddit
Morale of the story: get the cayman and don't bother comparing Z4 to Supra.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
That's actually one of the first cars I checked out when I started shopping back then because reviews were stellar, but quickly dismissed it because it's simply not in the same price bracket spec-for-spec.
In Europe a low-mileage 2021+ well equipped Z4 sets you back between 45 and 55k. I'm ignoring the first few on that list (there's one for 37k) because those tend to be poorly maintained and/or have problems.
A base Cayman sets you back at least 60k and at that price they're higher mileage and poorly equipped, I invite you to go through them and check what options they have. That black one at 61.900 doesn't even have heated seats lmao. A well specced exemplar would be closer to 70k which is simply a different budget.
Porsche did this cute trick with the Cayman where they set the base price at 60k but you were getting almost nothing in the base model. I distinctly remember back in 2021 I configured a fully specced Z4 and it was 75k. A spec-for-spec Cayman S was an eye watering 95k. That's simply not in the same price range, it never was.
Look, I love Porsche as much as the next person. I rented a base Cayman on a track and it convinced me that I need one as my next car, and I plan to get a GTS 4.0 sometime in the future. But the prices are not in the same league as the Z4 or Supra. Maybe the landscape is different in the US, but in Europe that's what it looks like.
Bigdawgbawlin@reddit
Same in the states. I wound up with a 10k mile z4 m40i instead of a base cayman because at the same price point any Porsche has had multiple maintenance issues which are likely to continue
Can’t say I regret it because I found out I love convertibles.
K1net3k@reddit
Cayman is more expensive to buy to you recuperate that when you sell it as it holds value better. At the end of the day it's a wash and you enjoy a better car.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
That's actually a good point, but I'd go higher up into the flat-6es for value retention. I'm not sure how kind the depreciation will be to the flat-4s once the new Cayman is released.
drags_@reddit
My biggest regret of last year was not picking up the last Supra on the lot, now a year later and there isn't a single one for sale on Autotrader Canada.
tulesto@reddit
I agree with the steering on the A90. My mk7.5 gti and macan both have better steering. Might be the only thing I truly dislike about the supra. Well that and the non-molded infotainment display
MisterDoctor___@reddit
Ain’t no way a GTI has better steering. I had a Golf R and it was even more numb steering-wise than my Supra.
tulesto@reddit
Idk man I feel more from my 7.5 than my supra but I also replaced basically all oem suspension parts with aftermarket so I'm sure that has some say in it. Supra is still stock other than swift springs and it's quite numb
MisterDoctor___@reddit
Yea I had to replace basically the whole suspension with parts from the Clubsport and other aftermarket stuff just to get anything out of the car. At least with the Supra you can feel the chassis through your body to make up for it. The Golfs didn’t have that benefit.
SauretEh@reddit
Not sure how much of a difference there is between mk7.5 and 8, but my mk8 has noticeably more numb steering than my old poverty-spec 2016 Mazda3, which was wild to me. Guess I didn’t realise how low the bar had fallen, damn.
dont_wear_a_C@reddit
Crazy for a modern car at that price range
TwelveTrains@reddit
It is basically impossible to push either of these to 50% of their limit on a public road.
YouAreMentalM8@reddit
This is the biggest reason why I don't think I'll ever buy a BMW made after the E9X. For me, good steering is non negotiable for this class of car.
bbull412@reddit
Could it be because of how driving assist have evolved over time did you try fully deactivate the abs and traction control. Also quick search maybe im wrong but i believe the rear tires a a bit bigger on the mk5 than on the z4.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I can guarantee I turned the TC fully off, it has 3 modes: on, traction mode and off. I'm certain it was off because the difference from traction mode is very obvious. Can't mess with the ABS though.
Also, they have the same tire widths, 255 front and 275 back. The Z4 facelift received the option for 285 at the back, unsure if the newer Supras got it too. But this one definitely had 275s.
Dependent-Mouse-4661@reddit
Honestly the supra was one of the least engaging cars I've ever driven. I have a polestar 2 now and even that gives more information on the road
krombopulousnathan@reddit
Having owned an M2 Competition that is no doubt the number steering causing this. That was the main weak point on an otherwise great coupe. This is happens in all modern BMWs, Supra included
randeus@reddit
Are there no options to improve the steering on those cars or something? For me, stiffer springs, control arms, and a thicker front sway bar (along with tires and alignment) did a lot to improve the road feedback. I’d imagine that same is possible with a Supra.
koopa00@reddit
I've heard of people having some success with monoballs.
krombopulousnathan@reddit
Nope not really. The M2 competition at least already has sticky tires and beefy everything suspension. And I came from an S550 Mustang GT before the M2 and did all those things (which did wonders for the Mustang - I regret selling that car!)
Dependent-Mouse-4661@reddit
Most likely yeah, was disappointing because on the test drive I didn't notice it. Only once I spent some time with it, sold it after a year because I just didn't see the point in keeping it... Such a shame they can't get one of the most important parts of a sports car right
zoobygainz@reddit
Unfortunately that's all modern BMWs
ndreeming@reddit
damn thats wild the supras usually cheaper in the states whatd the price diff look like over there
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
In general the Supra over here tends to be about 5k more expensive than a Z4 of comparable age/mileage/options. The Supra sold way worse than the Z4 in Europe for some reason, the exact opposite of what happened in the US. I think that's why they're more expensive.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
Just a matter of time until the Z4 is more expensive than the Supra everywhere.
GoldenState15@reddit
You mean to tell me the coupe is more confidence inspiring than the convertible?
Appealion-07@reddit
Supras feel way more raw and connected compared to the Z4's refined vibe, love it!
TangerineBroad4604@reddit
Idk about the newer Ford Focuses, but when I drove the C346 way back in the day it had incredible steering feel, and that wasn't even the lauded ST or RS of that generation
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
Hah that's exactly the generation I own, a pre-facelift from 2011 which I just kept around for when I need to carry things.
You can momentarily chuck a wheel in the air even in the normie models, which is hilarious. That car has no right to be such a good drive in that price segment.
FreeTheMarket@reddit
This is a great review. Like the format of “my opinion vs the consensus”
4nger@reddit
Nice to know. I’d probably get the Z4 for the soft top. Top down cruising is too nice. But the Supra looks better.
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
I'm partial to the back of the Z4, I think it's got one of the prettiest asses around along with the 8-series. But as an overall image I agree, the Supra looks better. That roof with the 2 bumps above the passengers and the way it blends into those straight windows just gives me this cool villain aura.
AndreLeGeant88@reddit
If the Z4 had a removable or retractable hard top, I would own it
hack_my_nipples@reddit
Did you note which tyres each car was using?
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
PSS both all round.
hack_my_nipples@reddit
Interesting, thank you!
xIcarus227@reddit (OP)
My pleasure!
404nd2@reddit
I tracked a GR Supra for four years and definitely had the same thoughts in the steering department, it's just dull modern BMW steering. I went full spherical bearings on the front end and it still wouldn't hold a candle to a 20 yr old sports car.
ayerock@reddit
Love my A90.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
As you said it really sounds like it comes down to whether you want a coupe or convertible, or have strong brand preferences.
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