Outrage as Zelensky names army unit after group that slaughtered Poles in WWII
Posted by ArdaBerkBurak@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 80 comments
tankTanking1337@reddit
This is especially bad viewed in Poland. To us, it is an equivalent of SS units for the Jews. We know that Bandera was connected to the UKR fighters for independence, but they commited too many warcrimes to be held openly in such a praise. They don't learn and will antagonize their biggest supporter that way.
I've read some time ago an interviews with Ukrainian writer and he lamented how Ukraine has a "gene of self-destruction" and whenever they start achieving something, they shoot themselves in a knee and shit their pants.
Welp, they just shat their pants. Historical policy is very important in the region and they turned about 50% of Poles against themselves with this public support for Bandera.
kwonza@reddit
Considering Poland is the cornerstone of Western support to Ukraine it’s absolutely baffling that Zelenskiy did that. I can’t understand his logic.
Could have waited after the war or could have not used such controversial figure knowing well it will enrage the Poles. Who benefits from this?
CitizenMurdoch@reddit
Honestly this could just be a blind spot, Patriots and nationalists view their history with rose tinted glasses, and they don't typically look at their history critally. This isn't unique to Ukraine, it happens in every country today including my own Canada. And often the response to criticism is just to double down
Greizen_bregen@reddit
I mean, I wasn't the leader of my country at the time, but when I was younger I had a favorable view of imagery from the Confederacy, not because I believed in anything the Confederacy stood for, but because of things like The Dukes of Hazard, spaghetti westerns about the South, etc. obviously I now understand the problem with idolizing anything to do with the Confederacy, but it was a blind spot for me at one time.
esjb11@reddit
You think? We offen talk about our contribution to the war with shame etc. And we were still quite neutral.
annewmoon@reddit
Really? As a Swede, I don't think we are generally well aware of or have a sense of regret over what we did in Poland.
Sweden is mentioned in the Polish national anthem for a reason.
CitizenMurdoch@reddit
Level with new here, how long would I have to research swedish history before I found someone who is looked upon generally positively by Swedes but is a contentious and controversial figure otherwise? I know you wouldnt need to research canadian history very long to find similar figures
esjb11@reddit
I mean sure, we have Swedish kings that fought wars with other countries but we are talking pre napoleonic era. Being kings waging wars 400 years ago isnt really controversial today. Supporting Germany during WW2 is. And hence many here look with shame upon us selling Iron to them and allowing their forces to travel trough our country.
CitizenMurdoch@reddit
My point isn't specifically how countries view their ww2 actions, it's more broadly how nations view national heroes. Ukraine and Poland's ethnic and national conflict predates ww2, and Bandera and the OUN have their roots way before ww2. Their mutual nationalistic struggles overlap eachother and that period, whereas Canadian and Swedish national history does not. But what is similar is that if you look at the major figures of each nation will almost always be reprehensible people. If you don't believe that then you are one of the nationalists looking at history with rose tinted glasses
esjb11@reddit
Sure but then you go back 100-150 years. Going back to Napoleon and try to make a point about it comparing it to todays Ww2 controversy is quite silly.
CitizenMurdoch@reddit
Is it? It seems arbitrary, all nations to some extent or another one their existence to pretty abhorrent violence committed on their behalf. Deflecting from it because it happened a long time ago belies the same apologia that Ukrainian nationalist would do with Ukrainian figures in ww2. The tactic of apologia is merely different, one appeals more to obfuscation by virtue of time more than the other
It is curious that you would say you need to go back 100 years to find this sort of figure in swedish history. The principle first phase in Polish Ukrianian ethnic conflicts started post ww1, which is more than 10p years ago! In my lifetime ww2 is going to be more than 100 years old itself. Will Ukrianian veneration of war criminals mean less in 20 years? I doubt it. It makes their actions no less abhorrent, at least not to me. It doesn't make the nationalistic inclination to ignore historical crimes ant less rooted in ignorance and bigotry.
My point isn't to excuse the veneration of National heroes, it is to identify why this happens, and that the approach to addressing this should be more nuanced, and should also demand self reflection on those who are quick to condemn it. Reconciliation between Poles and Ukrainians will necessarily demand that both reckon with their own histories
esjb11@reddit
Obviously it happening a long time ago makes it less bad. Time repairs wounds. Sweden and Denmark dont hate eachother anymore but we definetly did the years following the wars. Ofcourse severity matters too Noone talks about "never again" about Hannibal or ghunghis khan. Holding a grudge for that today is utterly silly. But Ukrainians being angry over crimea in 2019? Or after this war? Ofcourse. You know yourself that passed times matter
Yes I obviously dont draw 100 years as an exact line. Hence I wrote "or so" +- a few years. And again, severity matters too. And yes. In 60 years I am quite confident that the disslike between poles and Ukrainian due to crimes from ww2 will have decreased.
Yes you would have to go back more than a @00 years to find anything evenly remotely close to whats bassicly collaboration in the holucast. Sure we were too racist against sapmis and measured their skull size etc. (Something Sweden regularly accepts guilt for aswell) And the crime isnt even remotely at a similar size.
Ukraine isnt taking any guilt. They are honoring the criminals. Your point is lacking. If thats how Germany dealt with ww2 today the world would look drastically different. Hell if other countries that had SS volunteers did (such as Sweden to a small degree)it would too. This is quite unique for Ukraine. And they hold hard at it.
CitizenMurdoch@reddit
I don't think the length of time between a historical person and their veneration makes it better. I think the impacts of their actions are lessened, but it doesn't make their celebration any less reprehensible.
I'm really suspicious of anyone making the claim that their nation is uniquely qualified to make a moral assessment of their national heroes, and judge another nations attitudes towards their own. You're arguing from a bit of an advantage here, as I don't know Swedish history very well, but my instinct is that much like any other European nation is that there are significant national figures who committed acts of violence in the name of their country. Their reputations are defended against controversy for most of their history, and then when there is finally a reckoning, the common refrain is that "it was a long time ago, and it doesn't matter now"
Thus an older and more established nation celebrates its national heroes without critique or introspection, while a newer nation like Ukraine or Poland have their national figures involved in very recent atrocity.
It is not an issue of the impact of these figures, its the intellectual dishonesty that goes with it. I think your claim that Ukraine is unique in this regard is especially galling when Poland itself engages in the same sort of apologia.
The judgement of other nations in their veneration of national heroes isn't particularly productive, it leads to jingoistic chest thumping rather than an actual material evaluation of a nations history that might be productive
QuackSomeEmma@reddit
It is unusual, and we're kind of the experts at it (less so nowadays)
chorizard9@reddit
The same thing happens with Poles when you ask them about their involvement in the Holocaust; they flat-out deny it. Of course, most of it was done by the Nazis, but there was also local support when Poland was occupied.
CitizenMurdoch@reddit
Lol the guy who replied to you did more to prove your point than you could have hoped for
rumSaint@reddit
Like fucking what? Jedwabne pogrom is often discussed event, but Polish side opted for exhumation, but guess who blocked it? Jews. Why? Just think about it.
Murricans jews didn't move a finger to help 3 milions of polish jews during WW2, but when playing the victims, they're first.
Stop spreading misinformation.
PS: Jews lie about genocide in Gaza as well. Always the victims.
YourFuture2000@reddit
Yes, the problem is nationalism. One of the main key aspect of fascism by the way.
the-kontra@reddit
There's literally one rule Ukraine needs to follow to maintain good relations with Poland - stop glorifying UPA and Bandera. Yes, there are plenty of other issues, but that's basically the one thing they can't screw up.
neverendingchalupas@reddit
Ukraine still refuses to stop the use of the Nazi symbol for Azov with was only founded in 2014, its not baffling once you are willing to acknowledge that Ukraine is not a Western state, that it is an Eastern European country that embraces Nationalism and the far Right.
bmrtt@reddit
His logic is that, no matter what he does, he'll still enjoy near unanimous support from Western governments and public both for being so useful as a pawn against Russia.
He could say that HItler was right tomorrow and he'd still be hailed as a hero.
RecurringZombie@reddit
Well he did just repatriate and rebury Andriy Melnyk last week so you’re probably right.
YourFuture2000@reddit
Because he knows the public mostly willing to go to war and the message is to them. Because Ukraine is in crises of Ukrainians not willing to go to war and prefere migrate (which Ukraine government has forbid) or accept Russia invasion for the war to end and save their lives.
Aggressive-Map-2204@reddit
Its because the UPA is still celebrated and very well regarded in Ukraine to this day. Internally this is a very popular move. They dont see anything wrong with naming a unit after Nazi collaborators who slaughtered 100,000+ Poles.
nikmah@reddit
I wouldn't be surprised if majority of those serving in the Ukrainian Armed Forces were more on the extreme side of things when it comes to views and especially within the Ukrainian Special Forces like the Azov brigade and my guess it that Zelensky's intentions was to motivate and unite these soldiers.
tankTanking1337@reddit
Ukraine was hostlie when it comes to historical policy for a long time. I think they try to play this card to get concessions from the Polish government. They had a very active anti-Polish foregin minister for a while, that finally got booted out after publicly stating that Ukraine has territory dispute with Poland. Zelensky was also reluctant to give good-will gestures when it comes to certain exhumations, but I don't really remember the details, as I don't really care about that.
The irony is, the most neo-Nazi group, Azov, turned out to be the most pro-Polish. They honour and do maintenance on Polish victim cementeries.
ilikedota5@reddit
The domestic pressures > international pressures?
Anxious_Katz@reddit
Hmm, not when you're dependent on foreign aid to fight off an aggressive enemy, right?
MCbrodie@reddit
No. The danger is immediately around them. This is what happens when survival day to day takes precedent over long term survival. Its a terrible move from the outside but could help increase morale internal to the country.
kwonza@reddit
Is there really a major domestic pressure to celebrate a war criminal? Can’t you placate those people in some other way?
Anxious_Katz@reddit
And you get ridiculed as being pro-russian when you bring up the obvious White Supremacist tendencies.
_Alukard_@reddit
Saying "white supremacist" in countext of Europeans against Europeans is kinda stupid.
No, not "kinda".
Very.
Xasf@reddit
The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, yes.
I'd like to see Russia to be stripped of their delusions of grandeur and put in their place as much as anyone, but the blind Ukraine (or more specifically Zelensky) "glazing" by my fellow Europeans gets on my nerves. This is just the latest example..
YouWeatherwax@reddit
It seems that some Ukrainians in positions of power have a blind spot when it comes to Bandera. Andrij Melnyk, the Ukrainian ambassador in Germany from 2014 to 2022, visited Bandera's grave in Munich to lay down some flowers in 2015. He was criticized for it at the time and that was it.
When Russia invaded Ukraine Melnyk tried almost everything to garner support for his country, hounding politians, giving interviews, appearing in talkshows... And while he was often viewed as an arrogant prick and a pain in the ass by a lot of politians and the public - he also got a lot of respect for his tenacity and the work he did for his country. Until the visit to Bandera's grave was pulled up and he got questioned about it. Instead of at least downplaying it or for once acting like a smooth diplomat, he stood by his hero. In an interview in July 2022 with Thilo Jung he took it too far and got called home.
2stepsfromglory@reddit
It just seems baffling to me how Ukrainian nationalists seem to be unable to realize that gathering the sympathy and support of fellow Eastern or Central European countries against Russian imperialism is not just something they desperately need, but is also extremely easy: just don't praise nazi collaborators. I don't think that's so hard to understand, and is not as if Ukraine didn't have enough national figures who fought or denounced Russian imperialism in the last 300 years... still here we are.
tankTanking1337@reddit
Funny enough, people don't care that much about nazi collaborators in Poland. Ukraine was allied with Germans against the USSR, so people don't really care that much. So did Finland, whatever.
The problem is, most of the groups were preaching (and conducting) mass-genocide against Poles.
FalardeauDeNazareth@reddit
Bandera is viewed in Ukraine as a proof that Ukraine will be independent.
Despite the shame associated with it, Ukrainians say "he did what needed to be done to save the country".
Graphene-OS@reddit
I’m sure, back in the day, Germans liked the Nazi Party for reasons other than the death quads. But if Russia invaded Germany I don’t think you’d have entire German battalions slapping SS patches on their uniforms and naming units after Heinrich Himmler.
FalardeauDeNazareth@reddit
I see your point, but I fail to see how Ukraine does anything even remotely close to this
anticomet@reddit
Nationalists using nationalism as an excuse to defend the crimes of other nationalists
Graphene-OS@reddit
I’m sure, back in the day, Germans liked the Nazi Party for reasons other than the death quads. But if Russia invaded Germany I don’t think you’d have entire German battalions slapping SS patches on their uniforms and naming units after Heinrich Himmler.
sakezaf123@reddit
I mean yeah, have you like seen any country on the planet? Even Germany has the "clean Wermacht" myth.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Next time Putin starts his usual spiel about denazification and liberation, do keep in mind that best propaganda is always rooted in truth. No matter how much it grows from there, that truth in the base of it all is what gets people to believe it.
imunfair@reddit
That's true for Russian propaganda, not for Ukrainian, they're happy just to say things that aren't connected to reality at all. That's why earlier in the war I would just disregard anything Ukraine said as unreliable and figure out the truth from a combination of Russian half-truths and US press releases.
Unfortunately once Trump took over the US side has become entirely unreliable, so it's no longer possible to use that method since it's basically like Ukrainian data now.
Morgn_Ladimore@reddit
This is a level of self-sabotage by Zelensky that I genuinely cannot understand. How could you ever think this is the right thing to do? Especially now and especially with Poland being your biggest ally in the war. What the hell is he thinking? Is Nazi ideology really THAT deeply rooted in Ukraine that they can't resist doing this?
Giving a free propaganda win to Russia too. Just an all around disaster.
imunfair@reddit
It's the "didn't say thank you" thing that pro-UA like to mock as inconsequential, but it's just a systemic lack of manners or care about anyone else.
People I've spoken to online seem to think it's a cultural thing with Ukrainians, but to a westerner it just comes off as rude and lacking in manners - always inward looking and asking what someone else can do for you. So in that mindset, he doesn't even consider or care what Poland might think about the name, even though that's a huge strategic mistake for someone who needs their help.
giboauja@reddit
Ukraine likely contests Polish viewpoint of the battalion (which as I understand is more likely the correct viewpoint) and has rather has a nationalistic view of it. During wartime you try to front and center every nationalistic icon you can get.
Numerous advisors probably have been pushing this to rally the Ukrainian nationalists to revitalize the war effort, since they are the most likely to sign up and die for Ukraine. Something Ukraine really needs right now.
So a leader may weigh a controversal name for a battalion vs pissing off one of your allies.
As frustrating as this name is, its hardly comparable than a people's fight for survival. I think it was a mistake, but im not jumping to a conclusion that several people on this board have jumped too, such as that Ukraine is a secret nazi State.
Keep in mind, Ukraine is firmly against Iran (for some pretty obvious reasons) and that has colored many people's opinion of Ukraine recently,. So news like this (that is, at worst offensive), makes people jump to absurd conclusions.
Still, a solid L for Ukraine, but molehill, mountains, etc.
bonesrentalagency@reddit
Zelenskyy really cannot help but constantly give Russia propaganda victories and Poland reasons to distrust and hate him can he? How many more Nazi collaborators are they gonna name streets after? How many more extermination units are they gonna honor? Every single one is a ridiculous own goal
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Propaganda?
Morgn_Ladimore@reddit
Yeah, it's not necessarily propaganda that Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem. That's just the truth, as is shown here once again. But Russia using that as a justification for invasion is laughable.
JucheSuperSoldier01@reddit
lmao Ukraine's national heroes are the nazi collaborators who helped conduct the holocaust in Ukraine. Why would anyone be surprised by this? Their whole army being full of nazi-symbol adorned fascists wasn't the first red flag?
OttoVonJizzfart@reddit
“whole army” no one’s gonna listen to your opinions when you’re blatantly hyperbolizing
JucheSuperSoldier01@reddit
German opinion —> 🗑️
loggy_sci@reddit
Disgusting tankie slop and Kremlin mouthpiece on this forum
Mikerosoft925@reddit
Your name is literally the North Korean state ideology…
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
You're saying this as if the North Korean state is/has been a bigger evil than Germany??? On what planet
sofixa11@reddit
I'm sure the slaves in the North Korean state labour camps would be very happy to know that their state didn't commit the Holocaust.
KaiBahamut@reddit
What's that saying? If 11 people and 1 Nazi sit down at a table and no one speaks out against the Nazi, 12 Nazi's leave the table?
Lapkonium@reddit
That’s true, only 2 corps (40k x2) and a bunch smaller size formations have Nzi symbolism in official names and logos. If we say roughly that all fighting formations are ~600-800k that makes it that only 10-20% of the fighting force is openly nzi
Basic-Wind-8484@reddit
Oh only 20% or 1/4 men are nazis? That's okay!
Jk that's fucking insane wtf why are they all nazis?
familyguy20@reddit
Sucks because there are lots of other non fascist heroes they could look toward, like Nestor Makhno, but he probably gets shit on too because he’s an anarchist 🤷♂️
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno
KronusTempus@reddit
lmao people just have to look up the Azov battalion flag. It is quite literally inspired by the swastika.
CwazyCanuck@reddit
It’s quite literally not inspired by the swastika.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel
anticomet@reddit
Next time you should try reading your source before you use it in an argument
CwazyCanuck@reddit
Oh, I read it, the problem is others did not. The statement was that the Azov Battalion symbol was “literally inspired by the swastika”, which is patently false.
The link also explains the Ukrainian symbol, which was inspired by the wolfsangel, was a modified version.
TributeToStupidity@reddit
See your first mistake was expecting minimal nuance from Reddit, like “the Nazis used more than 1 symbol”
Ser_Twist@reddit
I love (hate) Redditors. Going “umm aackchualky, it’s a wolfsangle” is not the dunk you think it is. The Wolfsangle is also a fucking Nazi symbol thanks to the SS.
KronusTempus@reddit
Did you read the damn wiki article?
“The Ƶ-symbol was later adopted by the Nazi Party,[4] and was used by various German Wehrmacht and SS units such as the Waffen-SS Division Das Reich and the Waffen-SSDivision Landstorm Nederland “
You don’t even have to scroll down very far to find this, it’s right there in the opening section.
sofixa11@reddit
Used by Nazis != "literally inspired by the swastika"
ModsDoItForFreeLOL@reddit
Exactly. They'd be surprised, because they don't know anything about the Ukraine. It became popular among the usually anti-war segments of society to suddenly abandon that narrative and passionately and uncritically support the Ukraine.
This has been the case on a ton of issues lately, as young voters (more accurately voting age people since so many of them don't bother) are chasing social kudos and inclusion, being with the popular majority on issues when their political alignment should be the opposite, or holding opposing views on the same issue depending on who is participating.
I guess the surprise at the Ukraine happens because loyalty of political philosophy has been abandoned for loyalty to the self.
RHouse94@reddit
They viewed the Nazis as liberators because Russia was starving Ukraine to the point of being an attempted genocide. Estimated 30 million starved in the genocide called The Holodomor.
The Nazis would have likely ended up giving Ukraine the same treatment as Russia to help alleviate food shortages in Nazi Germany. However they did not hold Ukraine long enough to be able to squeeze the country for food.
JucheSuperSoldier01@reddit
This is nazi propaganda meant to get Ukrainians to do exactly what the OUN was doing. A similar amount of ethnic Russians died in the famine. The Kazakhs lost a third of their population. Since the opening of the Soviet archives, there have been numerous western scholars who've come out against the idea that the USSR was intentionally starving Ukrainians.
Any only 3-5 million in Ukraine. You're own numbers proves it wasn't a targeted famine.
RHouse94@reddit
I remembered the death count wrong but it happened. I’ve read enough first hand accounts. Ukraine produced plenty of grain to feed everyone but the Soviet Union gave them almost nothing. Russians recruiting people in Ukrainian villages to go find grain people had hidden away to survive. The raiders would get a cut but it would often get taken when another village gets recruited to raid their village. Eventually it got so bad that you could be arrested for having food because there was no way the got it legally.
The forced socialization of private farms after demonizing private farm owners. They called them kulaks as a slur.
evgis@reddit
And there's also no surprise who is sponsoring OUN since the end of WW2.
After World War II, the United States covertly supported the OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and its militant wing, the UPA, through intelligence agencies like the CIA. This backing was part of a broader Cold War strategy to utilize anti-communist partisan groups to destabilize the Soviet Union.
Motivations and Context Policy of Containment: Following the Truman Doctrine, the U.S. sought to counter and contain Soviet expansion.Intelligence Gathering: Western intelligence agencies—initially British intelligence and later the CIA—covertly used OUN networks to smuggle couriers into Soviet-controlled Ukraine, gather intelligence on Soviet military capabilities, and support anti-communist resistance.
The Soviet Threat: The UPA fought a fierce guerrilla war against Soviet forces well into the early 1950s, making them valuable assets to the U.S. in mapping and disrupting the Soviet apparatus.
Key Figures and OperationsStepan Bandera: A prominent OUN leader, Bandera lived in West Germany after the war and collaborated with Western intelligence, which aided his network.
Operation Bloodstone: This was a notable U.S. Cold War program that recruited anti-communist exiles, including members of the OUN, for covert intelligence operations and propaganda against the USSR.
Historical ControversyThe U.S. alliance with the OUN is highly scrutinized. The OUN had a history of brutal ethnic violence, particularly the massacres of Poles in Volhynia, and collaborated with Nazi Germany early in the war before turning against them. American intelligence agencies ultimately chose to overlook this wartime background to leverage the group's fiercely anti-Soviet ideology.
Chipay@reddit
Apart from the fact that OUN-B and OUN-M committed war crimes and did the Ukrainian cause far more harm than good, Ukraine right now is an EU accession candidate that needs to sustain good relations with states that will decide the speed of its membership process.
It's profoundly stupid.
sovietarmyfan@reddit
I wonder if this action may create some sort of reprisals against Ukrainian refugees in Poland. There are about 1.5 million Ukrainians in Poland. It is a known fact that it often unfortunately happens that the actions of a government are equated by people as actions by all and everything associated with the country.
aneq@reddit
Unfortunately it is already happening with situations like this one only inflaming tensions.
When the war broke out nearly 99% of polish society supported Ukrainians with many just going to the border to host fleeing refugees in their own homes on the morning when the full scale invasion begun.
Over time, russian propaganda networks and decisions like this one from Ukraine's government fueling it changed it significantly. I have no idea of the figures now but if I would to take a guess its around 40%.
Unfortunately, this is not the first blunder they did like this and it feels like it's their consistent policy. I fear it will get even worse.
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
If it is a consistent policy, then it is not propaganda, is it?
Dull-Librarian-2676@reddit
People think I am being a dick when I say I don't think I have any business commenting on the Ukraine war but this is exactly the type of thing I mean. This is all brand new information for me
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