Poland moves to strip Zelensky of honour for naming military unit after group that massacred Poles
Posted by BubsyFanboy@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Polish President Karol Nawrocki has announced plans to strip Volodymyr Zelensky of the Order of the White Eagle, Poland’s highest honour, after the Ukrainian president named a military unit after a group that led massacres of ethnic Poles during World War Two.
However, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, whose government regularly clashes with the opposition-aligned president, has sought to calm emotions, warning that the only one to benefit from conflict between Poland and Ukraine is Russia.
“Unfortunately, President Zelensky has shown that Ukraine, in terms of mentality – glorifying bandits, murderers from the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) – is not ready to be part of the European family,” said Nawrocki on Friday morning.
“Because in the European family, you cannot glorify bandits [who] murdered women and children, murdered Poles,” he added, after announcing that he would move to strip Zelensky of the order, which was awarded to him by Nawrocki’s predecessor, Andrzej Duda, in 2023.
Nawrocki noted that a meeting of the body responsible for overseeing the order will next meet on 8 June, when he would propose discussing revoking Zelensky’s award. However, the president noted that the decision on doing so ultimately rests with him, reports the Polish Press Agency (PAP).
Nawrocki’s announcement comes amid growing anger in Poland over a decree issued by Zelensky on Wednesday, in which he named an operations centre for Ukraine’s special forces after the “heroes of the UPA”. He said he had done so “in order to restore the historical traditions of the national army”.
The UPA was a partisan formation created during World War Two as part of efforts to fight for an independent Ukrainian state. However, it was also responsible for the so-called Volhynia massacres, in which around 100,000 ethnic Poles, mostly women and children, were slaughtered, often with great brutality.
The fact that the UPA and figures associated with it continue to be venerated in Ukraine has regularly caused tension with Poland. The two countries also often clash over the Volhynia massacres, which Poland regards as a genocide, a label Ukraine rejects.
Zelensky’s decision immediately triggered condemnation from Poland’s right-wing opposition, which is aligned with Nawrocki and generally favours a tougher line towards Kyiv, especially regarding historical issues.
Przemysław Czarnek, deputy leader of the national-conservative Law and Justice (PiS) party, called it “a shameful signal sent to Polish society” and “a demonstration of extreme ingratitude” towards a country that has been one of Ukraine’s strongest supporters since Russia’s full-scale invasion.
“One cannot speak of partnership with Poland and reconciliation one day, only to glorify the following day the formations responsible for the slaughter of thousands of Poles,” wrote Czarnek on Wednesday.
While the Polish government initially avoided commenting, on Friday morning, foreign ministry spokesman Maciej Wewiór issued a statement saying that Poland views Zelensky’s decision “in an unequivocally negative light” and is “raising this issue in conversations with our partners in Ukraine”.
Naming something after the UPA “wounds the memory of this organisation’s victims”, harms dialogue between Poland and Ukraine, and “can be exploited by Russian propaganda, which seeks to divide us and undermine support for Ukraine”, added Wewiór.
Broadcaster RMF reports that Polish deputy foreign minister Marcin Bosacki submitted a formal protest to Ukrainian ambassador Vasyl Bodnar on Thursday and warned that Zelensky’s decision would anger and alienate many Poles.
Late on Friday morning, after Nawrocki – who regularly clashes with the more liberal government – had made his announcement, Tusk sought to calm the situation.
“I would expect both presidents to be able to rise above these historical emotions and try to build this difficult but necessary Polish-Ukrainian friendship and cooperation,” said Tusk, quoted by broadcaster TVN. If not, “the Kremlin will truly have reason to rejoice”.
The prime minister added, however, that Zelensky’s decision “violates our historical sensitivity”. He called for Ukrainians to show greater awareness of “what this grim legacy of the UPA means from the perspective of every Pole”.
Meanwhile, among those to criticise Zelensky was former Polish president and Nobel Peace Prize winner Lech Wałęsa, who is a strong supporter of Ukraine. He announced that he will now stop wearing a badge with a Ukrainian flag that is constantly on his chest during public appearances.
“By honouring the UPA bandits, the president of Ukraine has insulted me and all our murdered compatriots,” wrote Wałęsa on social media.
“I have therefore removed the Ukrainian flag from my chest. I will continue to help the nation in its fight against the Soviets [Russians]. I refuse to support President Zelensky!”
While tensions over World War Two history regularly erupt between Poland and Ukraine, the two countries have in recent years also made tentative steps towards reconciliation.
In 2023, Duda and Zelensky jointly commemorated the 80th anniversary of the Volhynia massacres. Last year, Ukraine also lifted its ban on the exhumation of victims of the massacres, tens of thousands of whom are believed to remain buried in unmarked mass graves.
However, Kyiv last year also criticised Poland’s move to establish a national holiday commemorating “victims of genocide committed by the OUN-UPA”, as well as a proposed law by Nawrocki that would criminalise the promotion of ideologies associated with Second World War Ukrainian nationalist groups.
Daniel Tilles is editor-in-chief of Notes from Poland. He has written on Polish affairs for a wide range of publications, including Foreign Policy, POLITICO Europe, EUobserver and Dziennik Gazeta Prawna.
geltance@reddit
Kiev has tiki torch marches glorifying Nazi collaborators... Kiev names streets after Nazi collaborators... Kiev has Azov summer camps for kids where they lift hands from heart to the sun.. Kiev has Azov absorbed into military.. Europe just keeps ignoring it and claims Ukraine can't possibly have a nazi problem since their president is a Jew... A Jew who applauded Nazi collaborator in Canadian parliament.
Ukraine names their military unit after Nazi collaborators.. Poland has a surprised Pikachu face
Heh...
edgsto1@reddit
Funny how a spelling of a city, can show which side are you on.
chillichampion@reddit
Do you call Germany Deutschland and turkey as turkiye too?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Yes I use Türkiye exactly as Türkiye wants to be called in english, Czechia now for Czech Republic and as calling Kyiv Kyiv Ukraine wants it.
chillichampion@reddit
Good for you. Most of us don’t give a shit about some nationalist snowflake’s feelings. We’d call it using widely used name.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Good to know you consider yourself an irrespectful person. I bet you also call transpeople with their biological pronouns.
Graphene-OS@reddit
Ackktually the term is “disrespectful,” not “irrespectful.” You obviously must be a Russian sympathizer who doesn’t respect the English language as England intends it to be used.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
I guess Oxford dictionary people are also russian sympathizers https://www.oed.com/dictionary/irrespectful_adj
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Did you seriously compare intentionally referring to a trans person by their previous pronouns with saying/writing a town/country's name the way it's pronounced in your native language?
A bit incomparable. One is just an insult used as a way of denying someone's identity, the other one is saying things the way they're said in your language
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Both are insults to people.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
No, they're not. It's how languages work. The town is called Kiev in Portuguese same as Beijing is called Pequim and Daman is called Damão. Is it an insult that I say Turquia instead of Turkyie? No, it's what the country is fucking called in Portuguese. Same with Czechia, it's called República Checa here (Czech republic) and it's not an insult to call it that.
Things are pronounced or written differently in other languages, it's not an insult for me to refer to a country's capital by its name in my native language no matter how upset it may make you
NoPriorThreat@reddit
So if I am spanish i should go around and call black people N word, is that what you are saying?
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
No, that's not what I'm saying, what the fuck is this bad faith interpretation? How can you compare calling a city by its name in whatever my native language may be with calling black people the n-word????????
Also, are we talking about the american n-word or Negro? Because Negro literally just means "Black" in spanish and can be used to refer to black people (both normally or insultingly, depending on the intonation and the context in which it's used) or just to the colour black, you dumbass.
Just because americans used the word in a racist sense for decades if not centuries, it doesn't make it automatically a racist word. If you're talking to a black person that speaks spanish and you say "tu eres negro" (literally translated: "You are black"), it's not an insult, it's just a statement of fact.
What the fuck is wrong with your brain that me speaking in my native language is the equivalent to calling black people the n-word on purpose, a word that historically has been used to demean and treat black people as subhuman?
chillichampion@reddit
Catering to nationalism and supporting trans people is completely different. But nice false equivalence.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Catering to people is completely same thing.
TimothyMimeslayer@reddit
Istanbul or constantinople?
ForskinEskimo@reddit
They didn’t even do it in Lithuania until 2022, it was always “Kijevas”, not “Kyjivas”. He’s just a good baltoid, ready to spew the party line.
Lowered12@reddit
Yeah, truly ,the way he spelled the city completely negates his arguments. Lets just ignore the nazi problem and just focus on spelling of a city...
malakambla@reddit
Why shouldn't we ignore somebody who's making their argument in bad faith and from the russian propaganda angle? Seems like the most logical approach to me.
_Antitese@reddit
if facts are russian propaganda you should rethink your side.
malakambla@reddit
Aa if biased presentation of facts does not exist. Funny
edgsto1@reddit
Who said anything about ignoring the nazi problem?
Azzagtot@reddit
Funny, coming form Lithahaurheuahernian
loggy_sci@reddit
Another one of the forums pro-Russian anti-west campist dingbats
Azzagtot@reddit
I am so sorry I don't like western countries because they fucked up our world beyond recognition and now pushing for WW3
loggy_sci@reddit
You don’t like western countries so you post the laziest braindead takes on this forum as a result. Intellectually lazy, trite, vapid bullshit and a deeply ahistorical view of geopolitics, all because you don’t like TheWest and blame it for literally everything.
You are absolutely worthless
xX_TehChar_Xx@reddit
Nope. Kyiv is the Ukrainian name and Kiev is the Russian name.
Annales-NF@reddit
In french speaking countries it's written Kiev with no political connotation.
PhraatesIV@reddit
Kiev is the name that has traditionally been used in English.
xX_TehChar_Xx@reddit
In Romanian, it's still used, but this is a diplomatic issue, rather than a linguistic issue.
Ser_Twist@reddit
Kiev is the common name for English-speaking people to say. It has nothing to do with being on Russia’s side or whatever. Plus, Kiev is just easier to write.
crusadertank@reddit
Its also easier to pronounce for English speakers
I think saying Kiev is better than saying "Keev" as most English speakers fail at saying Kyiv
loggy_sci@reddit
Says another one of the forums pro-Russians
geltance@reddit
Might call it kwiw as in queef from now on
BubsyFanboy@reddit (OP)
Nowadays almost everyone says Kyiv.
esjb11@reddit
Not really. I would say that quite few does. But might depend where you live. Poland is slavic after all so might make more sense there.
And then there is the war related reddit pages etc. But in day to day life I almost never see people use it.
BobMcGeoff2@reddit
Kiev was. Everyone I've heard since 2022 says Kyiv.
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Did you know that city names may translate differently, sometimes even being unrecognizable, in different languages? For example, in Portuguese, Beijing is Pequim and Kyiv is written Kiev.
Probably shouldn't say people ride for Russia just for saying Kiev instead of Kyiv, especially when only in 2020 did it become normal to call the town Kyiv outside of Ukraine (hell, Ukraine was doing a campaign in 2018 for countries and newspapers to stop using Kiev and start using Kyiv instead to match how the town's name is written in Ukrainian. This is a relatively new change for people outside of eastern Europe)
edgsto1@reddit
Yes, but it was promoted heavily after the full scale invasion, so anyone supporting Ukraine and not the moscals definitaly saw the promotion and can spell it correctly.
In Lithuania it was also spelled Kievas, but was changed without any problems
KaiBahamut@reddit
It's also been spelled 'Kiev' for decades in the West. Old habits, etc.
esjb11@reddit
Plenty of people choose not to go over to incorrect spelling due to the war. Not ideology driven, just that its silly. We know how common it is with languages changing the spelling of names to fit and that this isnt anything uncommon. But sure. People who want to scream wolf can always find a way to do so.
Winjin@reddit
"It's competely ok to use slurs against people that are designated bad guys"
Reddit isn't ok with slurs in general, I'd say the ones against Russians get a pass only for a while. I don't see people still use slurs aimed at Chinese or Japanese people as acceptable
Dizzy_Response1485@reddit
Funny how the word "Muscovite" hurts russians and their stans so much that they resort to crying russophobia.
And then in the same breath they lecture people how russian imperial microagressions like "Kiev", "Pribaltics", "little russians", "white russians" and a myriad of other vile things are actually good and proper, and have always been this way, and must respected😂.
You people are something else.
Winjin@reddit
Y'all just try and twist stuff whatever way you like, I guess, I still don't like slurs thrown either way.
seiryuu-abi@reddit
I think you’ve had better experiences than me but Redditors use slurs all the time and it may or may not get removed when I report them. The only one I reported that got removed was the n-word slur.
Winjin@reddit
Yeah it may depend on the subreddit, any European one is competitive about straight up breaking Reddit ToS by suggesting "removing Russians as a nation" (legit thing I've seen at least once)
edgsto1@reddit
Designated? Funny word to choose in this situation.
Moscal trolls and bots are really trying to not show that they are moscal trolls and bots, but failing hard
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
Yes and? I say Kiev all the time while being against the invasion because that's how I'm used to saying it in my own native language.
For 28 years of my life, the only pronunciation (and writing) I knew for the city was "Kiev" so it slips into the English language as well. Despite the massive propaganda effort (not using propaganda in a negative sense but in the sense of propagating/propagandising a message) from Ukraine for everyone to call it Kyiv (which is understandable, to further demarcate yourself from Russia), you can't expect everyone to immediately follow through on this.
1; because the propaganda might not even reach them and 2; a lot of people aren't going to change how they've been talking for decades because a foreign government whose language they don't speak gets upset at how a city's name is written/pronounced
Basic-Wind-8484@reddit
Only on reddit would someone actually try to strawman valid nazip accusations with "he spelled the city wrong"
Lmao
reality_hijacker@reddit
Do you call Germany Deutschland? India Bharat? There are hundreds of examples of places having differently spelled or altogether different English names. People have called it Kiev for decades, suddenly it becomes a political statement?
malakambla@reddit
Do you still call Beijing Peking? Mumbai Bombay? Myanmar Burma?
English is the language of diplomacy and so countries will adjust official names in English when needed. Keeping to the old ones requires effort as governments and media move on and people follow, and you're left using the outdated name/spelling. And since it requires effort, there's usually ideology behind it.
It's not a cardinal sin, but it is your choice to share the Kiev box with all other russia apologists. Don't be upset at other people, you've chosen that box yourself.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
It is spelled Kiev in English. Funny how your country of origin can tell which side you are on.
TimothyMimeslayer@reddit
American here, it is most definitely Kyiv in the states, pronounced keev. Not Kiev pronounced Key-ev.
edgsto1@reddit
Almost every news article, that is not moscal aligned writes it as Kyiv. It's hard to find Kiev even when I rry to do it. So stop with this shitty excuse
ChaoticTransfer@reddit
They also call twitter "X" because that's what Elon would have wanted.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
Almost like all the billionaire owner, government aligned news are pushing an agenda, you're so close to getting it, yet so far.
edgsto1@reddit
What agenda? The one where Ukraine is not russia?
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
No one is implying a country is another country by spelling the name the way their language has always spelled it.
No one cared at all about this until the Ukrainian government started spreading their own propaganda.
You didn't care until that. Do some critical thought before you spread nonsense about agendas.
edgsto1@reddit
Yes, after the full scale invasion Ukrainians wanted to seperate themselfs from the moscals. Because before that, they were using russian lamguage almost everywhere. Look at Belarus today, they are loosing almost every identity they have.
Do some critical thought before you spread nonsense about agendas.
SurturOfMuspelheim@reddit
This started before that, but good try. Also, nice slur! You're really fitting that Baltic vibe (That is, being a literal nazi)
Why don't you ponder a thought or two inbetween your time spent worshipping nazis and building statues of them. Something your country has in common with Ukraine!
chillichampion@reddit
No one cares dude.
rlnrlnrln@reddit
Obvious russotroll is obvious.
pisowiec@reddit
When you spell Kyiv the russian way you excuse yourself from the argument.
Lowered12@reddit
Ruling party still defends Ukraine and even attacked president for the idea of stripping zelensky of the order.
Our prime minister even said that every nation has the right to its own interpretations of history , which obviously is very idiotic thing to say....
Makyr_Drone@reddit
May I ask how popular Tusk is?
Lowered12@reddit
Well he was always controversial figure , PO supporters liked him but people who voted for PIS most of the time hated him and was often called "german agent"
But right now I would say his support reach all time low , people who hated him still hate him and for the people who supported him well they are dissatisfied with him for not keeping with election promises and people are in general disappointed in his goverment.
Recent polls show that more people distrust him than trust and when it comes to his goverment since the start all polls showed that more people have negative opinion about it than positive
Dirkdeking@reddit
Poland seems to have a foreign policy largely based on WWII era grieviences. I hear all sorts of reports of demanding Germany to pay reperations on one hand, and similarly weaponising history against Ukraine on the other. I.e. looking at the past more than the future.
Where does this come from? A lot of countries suffered during that time and even though we still hated Germans well into the 80's, it has become a non issue nowadays.
Lowered12@reddit
When it comes to the war reparations , Poland renounced reparations from germany in the 1953 but that was under pressure from USSR and we weren't independent back then so in theory that makes Poland liable for reparations , Only in theory because everyone knows that won't happen but still no one will officialy renounce those reparations because that obviously would be very unpopular even if chances of them happening are slim.
And for the Ukraine I wouldn't say that we weaponized it but we just want to well "finish it" because the only thing we did in that subject is fight for the exhumations of volhynia victims so we can properly bury them and end that subject. Most of the time we are reactionary than proactive and we just respond to ukraine actions such as this. Most of proactive actions in Poland come from less popular politicians trying to get bigger support by addressing people problems with glorification of bandera because well obviously there are people who are not very happy with people gloryfying people responsible for genoicide.
handlesdumplings@reddit
Poland has received hundreds of billions in EU funding to completely transform it's entire infrastructure over the last 20 years. If that's not reparations, I don't know what is.
malakambla@reddit
I don't know, giving back stolen art would be a good start don't you think? Instead of making us pay in the rare instance some resurfaces.
ResponsibleBeard@reddit
Not anymore, thanfully so. Those populist gimmicks are characteristic of the conservatives in PiS party (Prawo i Sprawiedliwość, Law and Justice) who had ruled for 8 years between 2015 and 2023. They prey on the less educated people from suburbs, villages, exploiting their "patriotism", and hating on Germans appears to be their favourite thing to do. PiS was happy to accept EU money, use it to fund the "Justice Fund", only to defraud this money, with politicians such as Ziobro running away to Hungary and now USA with their tail tucked.
Our current president Nawrocki technically isn't from PiS, but has heavy ties to them (some say he's the extension of PiS and Kaczyński, doing what he orders him to do), and was subject to much controversy prior to being elected:
Arguably these can be considered unsubstantiated rumors, however there are a couple of arguably worse offences he did later on, when he got involved in politics:
BubsyFanboy@reddit (OP)
Highly divisive figure. Like most politicians here.
bippos@reddit
Ironic that it was the presidents party which gave Zelensky the honour in the first place(now farmers don’t like Ukrainians no more though) while Polish parties are in general more far right
BubsyFanboy@reddit (OP)
The president moving to take away the order days later is such a dumb move too though. Any more relational president would at least have the decency to talk to Ukraine about this first rather than making these meaningless moves.
Lowered12@reddit
Yeah I admit I thought it was weird too but still he only gave idea about it and still there is time before the meeting.
But to be honest I doubt that talks would do anything , in my opinion Ukraine wouldn't do anything about it and just say that any quarrels benefit only Russia. But still those talks should have happend even if only for the diplomatic reasons
r3vange@reddit
“It’s own interpretation of history…” a line used to justify every atrocity ever…seriously I’m disappointed that a Polish political of all people would say something so moronic. Poland is easily one of Europe’s countries which has suffered the most due to other people’s interpretations of history
ilikedota5@reddit
At least as to Azov, the old guys got killed by war.
Dirkdeking@reddit
How does one explain that Zelensky, a Jew, is supporting a neo nazi military unit?
myshoesss@reddit
They had several years to and plenty of chances to just not used the Black Sun logo patches or any other Nazi patches on their uniforms but they won't do it. I actually started off supporting Ukraine but as from the looks of it they just proved that Russia was right wtf.
geltance@reddit
Why does a Jew, whose grandparents were in red army applaud a nazi collaborator?
Neurobeak@reddit
The neo nazis don't touch him, and he 1) let's them do their thing 2) bribes them with apartments/money
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
Biletsky was a founder and he's now the Brigadier General of the 3rd Army Corps...
-HOSPIK-@reddit
Nazi's originate from europe tho /S
macaroni_chacarroni@reddit
Grammar Zionists*
bluecheese2040@reddit
Ukraine treats its allies like this...it also attacked the nordstream pipeline and tried to trigger articl 5 as a result. I'm vehemently anti Russian invasion and want Ukraine to win but zelensky isn't the hero many portray him.to be. He's literally tried multiple times to spark ww3...and I'm sorry Ukraine isn't worth it.
Masterchiefx343@reddit
Delusional take
bluecheese2040@reddit
Yet factually true. Just cause your butt hurt doesn't mean it's wrong
Masterchiefx343@reddit
So the fact they caught the ship that damaged the pipeline and its registered to russia through 7 shell companies means it was ukraine?
Delusional
timbomcchoi@reddit
Ukraine is quite literally the vanguard of the West rn so it gets more leeway than a Western nation normally does, but this is something it's going to have to come to terms with as the war persists. The tag comes with its own institutional and cultural baggage.
As part of diplomatic efforts to gather support the Ukrainian ambassador to Japan paid a visit to the Yasukuni shrine, marking the first time in history a member of a foreign delegation has done so. This is an extremely sensitive issue for Korea and China, as that shrine hosts many of the war criminals from Japan's Imperial era. This event pretty much erased all public support and political capital it had in Korea.
loggy_sci@reddit
“Vanguard of the west” they are defending themselves from an imperialist Russian invasion you propaganda bot.
_Antitese@reddit
they are cannon folder used by the west to make Russia bleed, as stated in old western think tanks articles you western propaganda bot.
loggy_sci@reddit
Oh look it’s another one of this forums pro-Russian agenda posters trotting out vapid Kremlin talking points. Campist trash.
sovietarmyfan@reddit
(username not current opinion, explanation on pinned post)
Honestly, for every step Ukraine takes that technically legitimizes Russian propaganda up to a certain point, Europe should pull some of the military aid or money.
It is completely unacceptable for Ukraine to have made the Azov bataljon part of the military and have glorification of the fascist units back in WW2 that helped the Germans.
Now the fact that they are naming a operations center after the "heroes of the UPA", it's like they almost want to hand Russia a ideological win.
Russia has been basing their invasion on that Ukraine is a "modern fascist country" and actions like these aren't really helping with fighting this propaganda.
It's a fact that this nationalism and glorification of WW2 units is integrated very deeply in the Ukrainian society and used in the defense against Russia. But it's unacceptable and the fact that a president with Jewish ancestry is just allowing this is baffling.
It should also mean that EU membership should be very very far away until Ukraine deals with this stuff. Ukraine belongs in the EU but until this is banned out, no just no.
Check_Me_Out-Boss@reddit
Or, and hear me out, the Russian propaganda wasn't far off from the truth.
geltance@reddit
Things don't have to be false to be called propaganda by definition.
sovietarmyfan@reddit
It isn't, but it is twisted in a way that they try to justify their invasion of Ukraine.
gothlenin@reddit
Why do they keep doing stuff like this? Ukrainian soldiers were fundamental in defeating the nazis. Millions of Ukranian died. Why glorify the enemy?
I understand trying to disassociate from Russia, but Russia is not USSR, and is association with the nazis better?
Xtrems876@reddit
I expect nothing less from a country in such a precarious situation as Ukraine. If there's never-ending chaos, corruption, and war going on in a given place, it will eventually have to produce some really weird and dangerous ideologies, criminals, laws, etc. We've seen it over and over in various parts of the world, most notably the Middle East. And Ukraine hasn't known stability...ever, I don't think. Hasn't happened in their country yet.
tankTanking1337@reddit
True, but the key here is to not glorify them. We've had our own bandit groups that larped as freedom fighters, but people screaming "Bury nasz bohater" ("Bury is our hero") is super fringe and connected to the farthest and the most cooked right-wingers there are.
Jersey_2019@reddit
Of course but Reddit and American media completely decided one day that Ukraine is bastion of liberal democracy and must be protected at all costs as if they suddenly aren’t the most corrupt country entirety of Europe , idk why the so called “liberals” go through great lengths to cover up for bigots which they claim to fight against
BobMcGeoff2@reddit
Even if Ukraine isn't perfect, they still don't deserve to be invaded, raped, and pillaged by a much worse, more corrupt authoritarian state, in a blatant war of aggression.
Quit bending over backwards to defend a wholly unjustified attempt at conquering a peaceful country.
r3vange@reddit
The bi-polarity of Americans is absolutely mind boggling. You do realize two things can be true at once don’t you? Ukraine can be absolutes Nazi-larpers and not deserve to get get invaded. Saying that neo-Nazism is a major problem in Ukraine and has to be dealt with isn’t justifying the Russian invasion
Smooth_Imagination@reddit
No but claiming neo Nazism is a huge problem when it isnt is promoting complete nonsense and that is the common reason given for justifying invasion by in
To most Ukrainians those that do honour their early nationalists has absolutely nothing to do with NAZI ideology.
Dirkdeking@reddit
Perhaps not, but it is problematic that these early nationalists where nazi sympathizers and among others killed a whole bunch of Poles and Jews.
They ultimately weren't accepted by the nazi's as they where slavs after all, but they mirrored the ideology and I think they would have been reliable nazi allies, like Croatia or Romania, if Hitler wasn't so stuck up.
To rally around the flag you need history, I get that. But in this case their national history intersects with the national histories of allied nations in very unproductive ways.
Smooth_Imagination@reddit
Some of them, but certainly not all, of the early nationalists were extreme and would have been allies, as we saw everywhere that fell under occupation.
But the history is more complex than is being characterised. The worst of the conflict was in late WW2, a period of chaos. Whilst a lot of Poles dies, nearly half as many Ukrainians did.
To the UA nationalists, they werent comming from the place we are. These are people brutalised by the trauma of the Holodomor, for whom possession of any land was of extreme importance, essentially their only means to a livelihood.
To them, the enemy was the Soviets in Moscow and St Petersberg. They perceived the Poles as helping the Communists rule over them.
What locals in western Ukraine weren't prepared to do was swap that oppressor for a new one. What did the Polish authorities do in the areas were the massacres later happened?
They suppressed the Ukrainian people, forced Polish language on them, started shutting down Orthodox churches, barred Ukrainians from government jobs and restricted their enrolmemt to higher education, and tried to force them into Polish identity citizens.
From accounts of people who lived through this period, they did not originally have a strong Ukrainian identity or consciousness. That started after beatings administered by the Polish army, which went far enough to cause several dozen deaths. One account is that of a peasant that realised he was Ukrainian after one beating and being told he was a filthy Ukrainian.
This is the origin of the support for the nationalists. Oppressed peasants under a colonial rule fought back. These peasants had been reduced to serfs under fpreign rule wjth history going back centuries, as well.
This doesnt justify what happened, but it adds missing context. In effect, a cultural genocide was underway. The stupid actions of the Polish authorities led to a drastic falling out between these people and a violent period in the latter part of WW2.
Polish forces did also conduct mass murders of Ukrainians, some as reprisals.
It is a difficult and complex thing, that has to be understood as a result of a pressure cooker, the holodomor, centuries of serfdom, poverty and poorly educated people, WW2, denial of Ukrainian statehood, and some really stupid policy.
There are no people on Earth who wont under these conditions have extremist elements among them at the time.
Its very familiar to me as a Brit, what happened with the IRA. They never were populous enough to seriously harm us, but if they were, I'd bet open conflict would have led to a few massacres against the British.
It is remembered differently by both sides, things the Polish people have long forgotten, thibgs the Ukrainian people have too. The nationalists mean different things to them than they do to outsiders.
bobrobor@reddit
Bullshit. No one was forcing the Polish language. Or barring people from jobs because of what they were using at home. This territory was Poland for centuries, and Polish was the official language. So of course, the administrative jobs required that you speak Polish. France, England, Germany, or any other European country promotes its national identity. Poland was actually most lax in allowing various cultures and dialects. No one was punished for speaking less than perfect Polish, and the Lwowski accent (Lviv) was actually the accent of Polish arts, theatre, and even aristocracy. Owing in no small part to the fact that Lwow Uni was one of the Polish Ivy League educational institutions.
Could Scottish people in the UK get an administrative job without speaking English in, say, 1930s Edinburgh? This is the same.
There was no “shutting down of Orthodox churches.” Many Orthodox churches sat abandoned or had very few attendees in areas where Catholics were a majority. So they would take over these buildings and renovate them. But if there were enough Orthodox people to support their church, that church stayed up. All the same, the Orthodox church has always been aligned with Russia and often did try to undermine Polish administration, so yes, they were often seen as hostile to the unity of the country. But Orthodox faith itself was not persecuted, just maybe some pro-Russian Orthodox priests as agents of foreign propaganda.
Any divide between the people was strictly along the wealth and class boundaries, just like in the UK. Wealth and family birth determined your place in society. Not some ethnic association that was still a fairly new idea in Europe at the time.
Azzagtot@reddit
Calling Ukraine "peaceful" is blindness, ingorance or lies. For some reason, on reddit ~~peop~~ westerners close their eyes on what Ukraine did to it's population in the East after US sponsored coup in 2014.
For them, Ukraine suddenly - thanks to USAID - became beacon of democracy. And literal nazis from UPA dissapeared like shadows in it's light.
And yeah, appealing to "just" in current world, ravaged by decades of US ruled world order is just comical at this point.
Everyone knew that Russia would not allow Ukraine to be allied with the west, everyone spat on that red line and now Ukraine is dying as country, losing 20% of it's territory, 50% of population and there is no end to this war in sight.
Bonus points: US gets manufactoring from EU which became unsustainable without natural recourses from Russia.
Czart@reddit
West shouldn't have allowed russia to exist post ussr but here we are.
Jersey_2019@reddit
I remember some American lawmaker raised concerns that their money was funding neo nazis and even before 2022 regional conflict
Jersey_2019@reddit
I wouldn’t call them peaceful country , just recently they were protesting against immigrants bcoz their companies brought some labourers bcoz of man force shortages cuz many of them went to west Europe countries and Poland , in the midst of the war if their main concern is bunch of brown men that’s all I need to know about them and their values, history will be kind to Russia when people realise they are protecting ethnic minorities, Russia is a multi ethnic country itself
Smooth_Imagination@reddit
Wow, a population of 30 million people, a few protesters about something must mean they are not a peaceful country.
Because any kind of protest makes a country not peaceful.
Weve seen how badly Russians treat brown people, get a grip no ones buying your BS.
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