Would you agree to allow the creation of a Roma municipality in your country, as Macedonia has done?
Posted by Double-Aide-6711@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 338 comments
Besrax@reddit
I think that the best outcome for everybody, including the Romani themselves, would be achieved if they get integrated rather than segregated.
CataphractBunny@reddit
They have lived here for hundreds of years. If the wanted to integrate, they would have done so. Even today only very few want to integrate. The rest are content being above the law.
dilqncho@reddit
It's a chicken-or-the-egg conversation. Are they segregated because of the way they live and act, or do they live that way because they get shunned in "normal" society?
There are definitely social and institutional factors in play. There's also a fair bit of indoctrination happening in their communities. It's not hard to see how, if everyone on the outside seems to hate you, you start hating them back and become even more closed off within your bubble.
My mother used to teach Romani kids at a Romani school, in Bulgaria. As such, she had a lot of stories. They're kids like any other. They're curious and want to learn and live life. But then you've got shit like their fathers taking the government assistance money assigned for schoolbooks and spending it on anything else. Eventually kids see their parents don't value education (because nobody in their family has had any), so they stop valuing it themselves. Then they pass that on to their kids.
It's really not a black-and-white topic.
CataphractBunny@reddit
It really is not. The egg came first.
They choose to segregate themselves, and they keep making that choice over and over again.
dennythehorse@reddit
a huge reason why the roma are distrustful of outsiders is because historically, every time they tried to integrate, they were oppressed. literally before the holocaust, there was an emerging romani middle class
CataphractBunny@reddit
Holocaust was over 80 years ago.
dennythehorse@reddit
the genocide of the romani people wasn't even recognized until the 1970s
CataphractBunny@reddit
Maybe in Turkey.
dennythehorse@reddit
Look it up. The German Government never formally recognized the genocide of the Roma until the 1970s
CataphractBunny@reddit
Pretty sure I'm not from Germany, or Turkey.
dennythehorse@reddit
Well Germany was responsible for that genocide. Anyways, why are you bringing up Turkey again?
CataphractBunny@reddit
Why did you bring up Germany?
dennythehorse@reddit
Because Germany is responsible for the largest mass-killing of the Roma in recent European history.
CataphractBunny@reddit
Yes, over 80 years ago.
kikiriki_miki@reddit
Roma is a city in Italy. No genocide there !
MartinBP@reddit
They migrated to the Balkans before the Ottomans even conquered most of it. They weren't more oppressed during the 5-century Ottoman rule than Slavs were.
dilqncho@reddit
What even is the point of commenting if you're not going to address anything I said?
Yes it is.
No they didn't.
What a wonderful discussion we're having
MartinBP@reddit
They absolutely do chose to segregate. I've grown up around a Roma community and have known many. They do not allow their kids to marry ethnic Bulgarians, they believe their bloodline has to "remain clean" and that Europeans will pollute them. They are extremely racist towards everyone who's not Roma and will often disown their kids if they dare work for a Bulgarian or veer away from "tradition". This is also why they often pull their girls out of school at an early age and marry them off before they can get an education.
It's absolutely voluntary and deeply rooted in the culture. People who try to change things and integrate into wider society are shunned and ostracised. A lot of this is a direct evolution of the caste system they brought from India. Yes Bulgarian society is also quite hostile towards them which makes it harder for the few who do want to integrate, but the overwhelming majority of obstacles come from the family structure.
dilqncho@reddit
I think we're saying similar things. In my first comment, I also acknowledge that a lot of their issues come from horrible family structures and a deeply problematic culture. But I don't know if "choose" is exactly the right word when you're just born into a culture that indoctrinates you from the get-go. Most of their kids don't really get the chance to choose. If you or I were born in those ghettos, in the same environment under the same social conditioning, we'd probably be acting very similarly.
Yes, some people do break free, and that's admirable, but that doesn't mean there's no issue. It just means some people are incredibly strong or had a lucky break.
On a wider scale, my main point is that it's a self-perpetuating cycle. These things:
flow both ways. There's a hate-hate relationship between the Roma and the rest of society, and it's mutual. Yes, Roma culture is horrific and deeply insular/self-isolating. We react to that, and to their actions, by keeping them at arm's length. They react to that by self-isolating further. Rinse, repeat.
It's a circle. I don't know where the beginning was originally, but at this point I don't think it matters. There's no clean solution because it's not a clean issue.
Tudmat1313@reddit
I mean, if the main problem comes from their traditions and their reluctance to let them go what can you do. We have made a lot of laws to help them integrate, get in schools and so on. If they dont want to profit of them it s their bad.
And believe me when i say that the racism that they have is way bigger and more violent that the one that they suffer.
dilqncho@reddit
I do agree we need more buy-in from them, too. Opening doors is great, but it does nothing if nobody wants to go through them.
That's why I believe it's a multifaceted issue. Change needs to come from both directions, and that's very hard to achieve. Internally, they need reformers who see the value in participation in mainstream society and champion for it. Externally, we can help create situations where they see mainstream education and employment as more attractive than what they're doing - and, importantly, as a realistic, attainable option for themselves/their children.
But obviously all of that is easy to say on a random reddit thread lol. It's a massively tall task in reality.
Tudmat1313@reddit
I mean, we do have laws making it easier for them to get into school and universities, yet they dont profit of them. I dont know what more can you do:)))
CataphractBunny@reddit
Just quoting this so it stays up if and when you get banned for saying the truth.
Tudmat1313@reddit
I mean why is it a hot take? It s not even offensive, it s just the truth. It s not like Roma communities love Romanians a lot and we dont accept them. Most of Romanians dont even care as long as you are a good man or woman. On their side which is embeded in tradition you do hear about "pure blood" and other bullshit like that.
CataphractBunny@reddit
Admins are Americans. Therefore, these kinds of comments "promote violence and hatred based on race" or whatever their wording is. There is no room for Balkan based takes here.
Tudmat1313@reddit
Funny
CataphractBunny@reddit
I'm speaking from experience.
CataphractBunny@reddit
It really is not.
They did, and they do.
dilqncho@reddit
nuh uh
CataphractBunny@reddit
cope harder
dilqncho@reddit
CataphractBunny@reddit
Cefalopodul@reddit
It really isn't. There are those who live everyone else and have no issue being accepted in society.
dilqncho@reddit
I mean, there are always going to be exceptions to everything. But as a whole, I do believe the way they're viewed makes it harder to integrate. Yeah, it's technically possible, but it's an uphill climb.
Many of us wouldn't be where we are if we were born in similar circumstances and had to make that climb, IMO.
Tudmat1313@reddit
Maybe, or maybe not. My Roma friends have had some backlash but not anything bigger than some comments on the bus or some jokes which some of them dont mind( we also have jokes about romanians, germans, french and so on) . The reality is that they were good students so the teachers never gave them hard time, they were chill so nobody bothered them and they made a future for themselves without that much of a hassle and not even using the preferntial spots in univeristies for Roma people.
Tudmat1313@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Grand_Poem@reddit
always been like that for them, expecting special treatment since they are nomads instead of abiding local laws
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
You're so cringe and racist, man. The source is literally the Council of Europe.
https://childrenofprisoners.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Glossary_Roma_18May2012_CoE.pdf
0z0z0z0z0z0z0z0z0z0z@reddit
Or they can just leave and move back to India /s.
MyPlantsDieSometimes@reddit
And we can move and go back to west china OH WAIT no because that's regarded lol
Silly_lil_Guy_o3o@reddit
You guys are native
No_Abbreviations3943@reddit
Lol Bulgars showed up in the area around 700 AD. They aren’t native, we even know where they came from in the Eurasian steppes.
Silly_lil_Guy_o3o@reddit
They descended from 3 groups, one of the 3 are Thracians which are native. You can trace migration patterns far enough back and find that nobody is native using that logic.
MasterBot98@reddit
Agreed. That Jewish oblast in Russia irks me to no end...
LaurestineHUN@reddit
Their flag is cool asf tho
MasterBot98@reddit
Not a far of huge white part.
Murat499@reddit
Hard to integrate when most people in your country see you as subhumans.
MasterBot98@reddit
Yeah...
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
They are, but they are not always economically. The whole Balkan music scene is made up of Romani artists who live alongside Romani families who are normal and who have Romani weddings while being normal.
You focus only on Roma who have major economic problems, mixing that with a toxic family, and the fact that they are Roma does not help them get by either, because of systemic marginalization: when the smallest thing is negative, it is multiplied by ten for them.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
"Why do you focus on the 95% bro". Lol. Bro gypsies also on a mass scale sell their children, force them into prostitution, send them to steal. This romanticized view is real in your head only. Obviously not all of them, but many do.
Krillin113@reddit
Balkan people when they get to be racist about Romanis instead of other South Slavs:
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Racism is if you treat someone like shit because of his skin color. Gypsies are treated the way they are because of how majority of them behave. As long as they dont see this for themselves, things will never change. Integration wont work through money, it works first with recognizing honestly the patterns that need to change.
mschuster91@reddit
It's a self-reinforcing loop. And breaking through that loop takes (a lot of) effort, that barely anyone is willing to put up.
wanabevagabond@reddit
A lot of work on both sides of the story and neither side wants to do it. On the non romani side the average balkanac doesn't want to put in the emotional and mental work to realise this (it's easier to just blame them all) or risk giving his trust to the bad apples. On the other side their bad apples are the ones profiting from this, as most of the repercussions gets shouted down as racist profiling.
Tudmat1313@reddit
I never understood the bad apples part. I have a lot of gipsy friends coming from a city with an important roma community. The problem is that 95% of them are very racist towards romanians, have no jobs, steal and well... they make for the perfect sterotypical racist way in which white people view Roma communities.
I would never judge based on skin color, but certain bebaviourisms will give away instantly which guys are okay snd which still go by "the old ways". Imo the stat does offer them spaces in schools, in the best universities, anti racist laws so on and so forth, but the one that live in their communites do far less to change the way things are than the autohorities do, and this never stood right with me because they are the ones suffering the most, you know.
wanabevagabond@reddit
I mean if you grew up criminal, you think criminal and thosw patterns are very very hard to get out of.
Tudmat1313@reddit
Idk man, it s not this impossible task to be different than your parents. If what you said would be so common we wouldnt be any different than our parents. My father came from simple parents that thretened to beat him if he went to uni cause " he did not need that" but he still went cause he looked around and realised that education is key. It s not like the only source of information is our parents.
Maybe your parents tell you that all Germans have 3 eyes and you believe them for a while, but at a certain point you might see their faces and realise they also got 2 eyes, you know what i mean?
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
You’re talking as if you know better than the Roma themselves, especially those from your country. Do you know what it feels like to endure 500 years of slavery, to still be discriminated against even after its abolition, or is this something barely addressed in Romania’s education system, since it is not taught in school textbooks?
Your well-integrated friends I know them are mostly descendants of lăutari, enslaved musicians who were more privileged than others. Not to mention the Roma who more or less succeeded during the communist era, when communist ideology provided a certain level of equality between ethnic groups. But that did not last long: when it collapsed, institutions and, to a large extent, your people continued systemic exclusion and discrimination.
Tudmat1313@reddit
Why are you acting like Romanians have been some badass nation. We are not the UK or France, we were enslaved or directed by Turks and Russians for hundreds of years, thats no excuse.
No, actually they are not:))))))) but I guess you know my friends better than I do. You are barking at the wrong tree here, friend. Just because there is discrimination we cant simply put all our bad behaviours behind that. Romanian ethnics are well discriminated when going in the west to work( mostly because of Roma communities and thats not hate, just the truth) and yet you dont see them do the same things there, but rather try to integrate as well as they can. Sure, they maybe wont be the perfect people there, but what I m trying to say is that you have to want to be integrated to even have a chance at that.
You are talking to me saying "oh no you dont know what it feels to be Roma" whilst in other comments you are talking about Romania and its people. You probably met like what, 2 3 romanians and never stepped foot here yet you talk like an expert about us. The difference between me and you is
A. I believe people can have opinions about a certain thing even tough they are not part of a certain group
B. I know more about Romani people than you know about Romanians. In my neighbourhood racism was reversed and yet I did not grow up hating Roma people, just hating people that CHOOSE not to integrate and bring mostly bad things into society. There is no talk about integration from their side. Of course it doesnt apply for all of them, but the ones that were open had little to none difficulty. A lot of common people did not even know these guys are Roma cause they never bothered asking because it doesnt matter as long as you are an okay man. Sure, you will have a granny on the bus looking at you weird, but the same will happen to an emo looking dude.
You talk about systemic discrimination? A lot of their families are very rich, it s not like we have laws against them working, buying land, houses, moving, whatever, they have the same rights as everybody and then some. They have easier access to schools, to universities, anti racism laws( including on tv) in a country which loses a lot of it s school kids due to poverty. So money that could go to anybody goes to Roma people in order to study ( and i m all for that) but when they simply dont apply to those spots dont talk to me about systemic discrimination, especially when there are a lot of poverty strucken kids that would maybe take that opportunity.
wanabevagabond@reddit
But that takes education and widening of horizons and is much more difficult when everyone else still shuns you simply because of skin colour.
Tudmat1313@reddit
Idk, bro, discrimination simply is not that bad here. There are actually more violent conducts from Roma people against Romanians.
Tudmat1313@reddit
I mean, if they are ones suffering here shouldnt they be the first in line to make those efforts? It does not make sense to be the other way around.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
What audacity from the Romanians! The Roma people in your country have been free men for only 150 years, as before that they were enslaved for 500 years on your lands. And even after the abolition, haven’t you understood that they are human beings? And yet you still ask them to make efforts?
Krillin113@reddit
So if Western Europeans treat Bulgarians as thieves that’s also ok?
DarePlastic4136@reddit
Western europeans treat Bulgarians as thieves because gypsies present themselves as bulgarians then proceed to act like gypsies.
Novel_Plum@reddit
Yep, same with Romania. Due to them, we know have to go through all those "Romanians steal wallets" dumb jokes...
Sector3_Bucuresti@reddit
No. Being bad at math is not ok.
wanabevagabond@reddit
It's still racism. If you treat a person badly (or expect him to be bad) just becous other of his race are bad that's racism. Even if he is the only single decent human of his race it's still racism to assume that he isn't just based on his race.
IWantIt4Free@reddit
i mean is it racism if it's true
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
European court rules against Bulgaria for outrageous anti-Roma hate speech
https://www.errc.org/news/european-court-rules-against-bulgaria-for-outrageous-anti-roma-hate-speech
These figures are born of your abject racism; Romania and Bulgaria do not deserve their place in the European Union.
Serbia and Macedonia deserve it more than you. Go ask Westerners what nationality their Roma who cause problems are, and you'll understand why; they reflect your mistreatment.
ExoticAd7546@reddit
Woww Bulgaria and Romania don't deserve place in the EU because of a ruling against 1 far right politician. Good one buddy, in NM even worse right wing idiots have majority and are in power and no they most definitely have not deserved their place in the EU.
Tudmat1313@reddit
So you are a Roma guy complaining about racism towards your people and then proceed to be racist towards Romanians and Bulgarians. Yeah, sure buddy:))))))) have you ever stepped foot here at least?
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Meh, just recently I seen a chart about criminals in Germany and Serbian women ranked above Bulgarian and Romanian women. Of course we know what ethnicity these Serbian women are.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Your membership in the European Union, just like Romania is literally not legitimate. You Bulgarians are a deeply hateful people; even the Romanians who enslaved the Roma are not as hateful, and it’s frustrating.
The only reason the European Union probably accepted you is to better circulate your ethnically Romanian and Bulgarian prostitutes.
I’m sure you don’t know what a marriage dowry is, to say that we sell our daughters as if it were a general norm without any correlation.
Yes, we steal to eat, to survive, and if necessary, we will even be 100% of the population stealing in our country that does not treat us as equals but like dogs, while we have a single nationality linked to our ethnic identity connected to the country. We can go to India, and we will always be much more foreign.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Thankfully you don't get to decide who gets to be in the EU and who doesn't. Bulgaria and Romania have long had ago satisfied the comprehensive admission criteria, Serbia and North Macedonia still don't. I suggest you stop being a pseudo international lawyer and an armchair activist and look more objectively. Bulgarian Roma want the same privileges, but not if that means they should have the same obligations as everyone else. Many of them don't want to follow state rules and societal norms regardless of how much is invested into their integration both on national and EU level. Of course, there are normal ones who integrate well, but many others will never do so.
Rundas77@reddit
They are indeed integrated when entering people’s homes to steal… I guess they want to see how people in the Balkans live so they can be integrated…
RedScarySpectre@reddit
Isn't this segregation though? Push them all to the same neighboor, just like the ghettos where nazis put jews...
JovanREDDIT1@reddit
Isn’t it a form of integration if you provide education, administration, government facilities, and the Roma get jobs and start to contribute? The Roma in Šutka even if they’re not doing great are already way better off than the roaming Roma nomads elsewhere.
rintzscar@reddit
Obviously.
stikaznorsk@reddit
What makes this municipality special? The logo? There are Roma-majority municipalities all around the Balkans.
JovanREDDIT1@reddit
The way our municipalities work: if more than 20% of a certain language is spoken in a municipality, it automatically becomes official. Around half of people in Šuto Orizari (one of the 10 municipalities of Skopje) speak Roma, so it is official there, and there are education, administration, and many other other facilities in Roma guaranteed by law. (Btw, for education, there isn’t a requirement for 20% to be that so that they can learn in Roma, or any language for that matter, but I think there is a legal minimum for how many classes have to be that language in co official municipalities)
stikaznorsk@reddit
Just a curiosity, is this why the government in Skopje does not want to recognize the Bulgarian minority in North Macedonia? Are they afraid that a municipality will declare itself Bulgarian? I am not trying to create discord; don't take the post as that. I really want to see what a person who seems to understand politics like you feels about that. The political wrangling between Bulgaria and North Macedonia is really drowning out the voices of reason.
CryptoStef33@reddit
The Bulgarian minority is irredentist. In their mind the macedonism was created for removing the Bulgarian element from it and not a naturalist movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkEFXJIp8IA
I hold dual citizenship and went to their clubs in Ohrid. I wanted to help to get friendship, but instead of offering friendship, they gave me books to read about how Macedonia was Bulgarian, and after that meeting, I've changed my views.
Katsonis1@reddit
Прочитај ја книгата (мн мала книга) од анри пози војната се враќа... После од ЈугоСрбенда како што си сега ќе сд претвориш во најголем непријател и мразач на 🇲🇰 и од кога ќе ја прочиташ книгата ќе ги откриваш лагите и пропагандата и расипаноста на Македонизмот.... Тоа е причина зошто се будат некои како Бугари.... И прочитај кој е Анри Пози и зошто ја напишал книгата (иако во воведот тој сам си пишува кој е и што е и зошто ја пишува книгата) во таа книга се опишани садистичките методи на Југословените врз Бугарите... Во времето на Схс а денеска од тогаш се истите методи само што не може да има егзекуции но има пеколна омраза
CryptoStef33@reddit
Ја знам книгата и методите на србите со Џандермеријата и давање на земјата на колонизаторите но за времето на комунизмот тие политики биле тргнати. Е сега има влијание и во Македонија и Бугарија од српската култура, само во Софија имаш 12 ресторани српски и во студентски, Враца, Перник, Благоевград ечи српска музика. Секој месец се вика Миле Китич на телевизија, едноставно српската култура ја има насекаде на Балканот па и во Бугарија и Македонија
Katsonis1@reddit
Разликата е во тоа што тука е 100% монопол на таа култура... А во Бугарија покрај таа има од цел свет.. Не е спорно самата култура а монополот и едноумието
CryptoStef33@reddit
Тоа е површно мислење, јас живеам во Софија и можам да ти кажам дека на 500 метри од мене има српска скара, луѓето пијат и уживаат во српска музика зашто едноставно во времето на комунзимот Бугарија била затворена а Југославија далеку поотворена. Денеска е обратно и треба двата народи да се разберат на нормален начин со тоа што бугаррската страна треба да разбере дека на 250 километри веќе живее друг народ посебен од бугарскиот со свои обичаи и култура. Мене сеуште ми е проблем со нивните букви па си преведувам на англиски. Едноставно има голема разлика заради големото влијание на Србите од 1919 па до 1990 година.
Katsonis1@reddit
Бугарија прифаќа дека тука живее друг народ ама за историјата како ќе се спогодат...
CryptoStef33@reddit
Како прифаќа кога во парламентот напрвија декларација дека македонски јазик не постои тоа е дијалект на бугарскиот..
The 1999 Joint Declaration
February 1999
Prime Ministers Ivan Kostov and Ljubčo Georgievski signed a joint declaration establishing a linguistic compromise formula. To avoid a diplomatic standstill, agreements were signed in both official languages, specified as "the Bulgarian language according to the Constitution of the Republic of Bulgaria, and the Macedonian language according to the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia."
The 2017 Friendship Treaty
August 2017
The Treaty of Friendship, Good-Neighbourliness, and Cooperation between Sofia and Skopje retained this exact 1999 constitutional phrasing. It deliberately avoided a blanket, unconditional recognition of the language outside of its domestic legal definition within North Macedonia.
Parliamentary Framework Position
October 2019
The 44th Bulgarian National Assembly unanimously passed a declaration backing a strict government framework position. This document explicitly warned that no step in North Macedonia's EU integration process should be interpreted as Bulgarian recognition of a separate Macedonian identity or language.
The 2022 Unilateral Declaration
July 2022
Attached directly to Article 22 of the EU Negotiating Framework for North Macedonia, this declaration formalizes Sofia's stance on the world stage: the EU can use the term "Macedonian language" for administrative purposes based on North Macedonia's constitution, but Bulgaria formally treats it as a regional, codified variant of Bulgarian.
Katsonis1@reddit
Епа пасошите чуда прават 😁
Katsonis1@reddit
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
I think it's the only municipality that has Romani as an official language.
Substantial-One1934@reddit
What means official language, their language has no alphabet it's only a spoken one, If you gave them rights to create a party and enter your parliament that's official.
afewnameslater@reddit
Not keen to endorse that. And it’s not their language. It’s Panjabi with a balkan dialect. Would that mean we need to have a district for the Pakistani people too? Or the Chinese?
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
What do you mean? They just happen to be the majority in that area. The are municipalities in Macedonia where Turks are the majority, or other areas where Serbs are, and obviously plenty where Albanians are. While not a majority, Aromanians are a significant percentage of the population in Krushevo, so I think Aromanian is official there. It's nothing special to do with Roma people.
afewnameslater@reddit
My point is if you have to do it for one you will have to do it for all. And in Bulgarian the official language is Bulgarian thats it. Everyone can speak tgeir own language as much as they want, but if Im bulgarian citizen and want to do something with the local goverment in that region I expect to ve able to do it in the language official to my country. So no. I dont endorse that. But I guess with Macedonian being just as fake as the roma language you have more leniency.
Low_qualitie@reddit
You do realize that a municipality can have more than 1 official language, right? I imagine that in this Roma municipality, the government stuff and what not can be done both in Romani and in Macedonian
Reinis_LV@reddit
Having more that 1 official language also means any govenment worker and all the papers need to be also served in Roma. This also festers segragation of communities (like it's not bad enough already)
Low_qualitie@reddit
How exactly does accommodating Roma people in Roma-majority areas fester segregation? Also I don’t see why having government officials speak Roma in these areas would be a bad thing
Reinis_LV@reddit
They can do it but legally making an official language would make that state workers need to know Roma language or horr extra people who do know it. Yall don't understand what making a second state language entails legally.
Valuable-Yard-4154@reddit
What the fuck is your problem.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
Hr is Bulgarian
Valuable-Yard-4154@reddit
So what ? That doesn't give him the green light to be insulting.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
It was a joke :)
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
As I said, we don't just do it for one, we do it for all and the sky hasn't caved in. Also lol, you do realise these are literally the rights Bulgaria wants for the Bulgarian minority in Macedonia, right? You may be ok with only speaking Bulgarian with your local government, but would you endorse Bulgarian losing its official status in Bosilegrad; should only Serbian be used?
dennythehorse@reddit
this is really ignorant. the romani language has diverged significantly from indian languages that it derived from, with different dialects of romani themselves being mutually unintelligible between each other.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Our language is composed of a common base derived from Prakrit, with marked Greek, Persian, and Slavic influences. This means that no Indian in the world can understand me more than 30%. The fact that all Roma people do not fully understand each other is due to the linguistic influences of the country and even the region where we have become rooted.
It's not Panjabi, but Romani.
stikaznorsk@reddit
That is an interesting piece of legislation. I do not think this creates a more cohesive country, an opinion the others in this Reddit expressed. But I guess you do you. 😄
MartinBP@reddit
The Western Balkans aren't famous for their cohesion.
Mindless_Courage1476@reddit
I think this is a weird way to frame it. In Romania at least it's a recognized minority language, like hungarian. I think this is better as any county with a large enough population(20%) can request that their public adminstration use both romanian and rromani. So it's more closely related to the people that live there and it's inclusive to all minorities that live there
False-Discipline-640@reddit
I don't know the details, but sounds like segregation
rintzscar@reddit
It is 100% segregation. North Macedonia can't grasp the simple concept of "ethnicity is irrelevant". Ethnic segregation is ingrained both legally in their Constitution and societally in their collective consciousness. They believe separating the people in "minorities" is liberal, while in reality it's a backdoor for segregation and refusal of integration. Which is why no democratic European nation does that. Many don't even gather data on ethnicity - it's an individual self-identification that's not relevant at all to the state and its policies. Instead, they simply declare all citizens equal and that's it. Ethnicity is irrelevant.
JovanREDDIT1@reddit
If we do as you say, and try to ignore ethnic minorities so that we integrate them, we will have a Kosovo-style civil war the moment we make the change. Stuff like that may work when your country is mostly homogenous. It wont when 1/3 of your country is not the main group.
rintzscar@reddit
No, you will have a modern European nation where people are integrated. But thanks for proving my point that it's ingrained in your collective consciousness.
shogunlazo@reddit
What do you think the 2001 war was about ?
rintzscar@reddit
Discrimination and lack of equal rights.
shogunlazo@reddit
Which rights where missing ?
rintzscar@reddit
Political rights and linguistic rights.
shogunlazo@reddit
they had the same rights as everyone else, they are the only group that called for those special laws
rintzscar@reddit
Which means "we discriminated against everyone and only the most populous and militarized minority rebelled".
JovanREDDIT1@reddit
Shows how out of touch you are with our politics. You know how tense Macedonian-Albanian relations are, no? The moment we want to “integrate them”, try to impose Macedonian, we’ll have a war. How do we know this? We already had a war, albeit small. We do not want another one, Albanians or Macedonians.
We should strive to be like Switzerland, where there are multiple groups, they do collect information on the languages spoken, and there are multiple co-official languages. The only difference is that they live in harmony, while we live in a country where relations between the two main groups are still tense.
rintzscar@reddit
No, it shows how out of touch you are with the real world. Your state is falling apart specifically because you're segregating and discriminating based on ethnicity.
And this sentence solidifies that analysis. Integration means the exact opposite of imposition. The fact that you equate them quite simply means you have no clue what integration even is. In your mind integration is equal to assimilation, which is insane. How are you so uneducated? You have an LGBTQ flag, do you think when we say "we want to integrate the LGBTQ community" we mean "we want to assimilate them into the heterosexual community"? Are you even trying to use your brain?
Integration does not mean Macedonians imposing anything on Albanians. Go educate yourself, please.
New_Accident_4909@reddit
Ita irrelevant but they are delusional Bulgarians bamboozled by Tito.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Phew finally a point I see myself agreeing with Macedonians then.
Objective-Contact-15@reddit
No, they created a new local district where majority people live are Roma. It used to be part of a much larger neighbouring shire.
rintzscar@reddit
And this is segregation 101. Par excellence.
Objective-Contact-15@reddit
Since when self governance counts as segregation? Maybe give back the voting rights to Europe if so...
Yavannia@reddit
They already self segregate anyway.
False-Discipline-640@reddit
Which is a problem that should be corrected, not reinforced
Yamez_III@reddit
yes, let's use the power of the state to force compliance to desired outcomes over peoples free will. This will in now way whatsoever lead to a dystpopic, violent ending. Politicians can absolutely be trusted to guide human behaviour, after all.
rintzscar@reddit
Except with this comment you're defending a state decision by some politicians to force compliance.
Yamez_III@reddit
No. "Self-segregate" implies an action taken by oneself or ones community, rather than one imposed by fiat. Because the segregation occurs by the self. Thus the "Self" is "Self-segregate."
rintzscar@reddit
Except you're quite literally commenting under a political decision to segregate them. They can self-segregate all they want, while not being segregated by the state. Use that brain of yours, pelase.
Axel0010110@reddit
how when they do not want?
amazingadaptence@reddit
Are Hungarian Municipalities in Romania also segregation then? Or Hungarian schools?
Tedreak@reddit
Yes
False-Discipline-640@reddit
Depends on how it's done. Everyone in the Balkans hate Roma epople so I have no doubt that this will effectively be segregation
biglbiglbigl@reddit
Its not based on racism but political power. Easy to bribe the poorest so you can get their votes.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
It's a choice made by both parties, so not really
False-Discipline-640@reddit
But that alone wouldn't make it fine. The main issue with Roma people is that they are not integrated into society, creating separate institutions for them like municipalities would only make the problem worse
Sectorgovernor@reddit
They will have anyways...they have higher tfr than us
ohh_its_a_throwaway@reddit
not on topic at all, but your profile pic took me back. haven't stumbled upon anything darker than black related since... maybe 2018 (?)
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Roma is a city in Italy.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
I'm blocking you, this joke is too embarrassing
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Joke? Your pathethic existance is a joke.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
You hang out on the 4chain subreddit, your life must be awful
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Leviticus 20 13
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
You didn’t even understand the meaning of that verse before sending it to me in this situation, lmao.
Sinking_Mass@reddit
Galatians 42
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
It's more about being a really cringe person who attacks you with real Bible verses while thinking they're tuff, but in real life, they just look at the ground.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Deuteronomy 23
KittenDecomposer96@reddit
Everytime i see someone checking and referencing what subreddits someone else visits i assume that they are annoying.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
No, because this idiot already made the same joke a long time ago on my other posts.
Head_of_Based_Dept@reddit
bro why not go back to India
marvsup@reddit
Capital of Romania, no?
Head_of_Based_Dept@reddit
it's been a while
Starfalloss@reddit
All crimes lead to Roma.
deviendrais@reddit
LA CAPITALE D’ITALIA È ROMA! È ROMA!! 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Asthellis@reddit
as long as they have their own "microstate" with borders and control sure, thats a small price to pay tbh
Head_of_Based_Dept@reddit
a ghetto or what
Infinite_Breakfast49@reddit
macedonia is greece
Organic_Bit3337@reddit
No, but I would gladly provide our roma to their municipality.
chouettepologne@reddit
chillbill1@reddit
No. That's segregation
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
It's a municipality, not a ghetto; the administration is run by Roma citizens with support from Macedonia
Available-Badger-163@reddit
They are spread out thruought thr country not forming a majority in a single place so no
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Damn, you're all 15 and you don't even know what a municipality is.
OnTheLambDude@reddit
Ahhh clever…. To gather them all into one place.
I like this strategy….
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Mfs will get gypsies municipalities and will learn albanian before including us in their constitution must be the most bulgarian thing ever 😄
shogunlazo@reddit
Why would we add bulgarians in the constitution when our entire birth as a nation comes in the form of removing bulgarian occupation forces ? Also why would we add a group of people that dont recognize us? "These are just some lost bulgarians that just speak a dialect of bulgarian" and "They have been brainwashed by the serbs" (who are also lost bulgarians)
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
We were the first country to recognize you lil bro.
shogunlazo@reddit
Talking about the people, i dont give a shit about the country, the country is a social construct
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
The people what? You know how many Macedonians live here nowadays? My dermatologist is a Macedonian, I have three colleagues in my company Macedonian. I dont think any of them faces any issues. Unlike if you declare Bulgarian in Macedonia.
shogunlazo@reddit
Nothing happens to you if you declare yourself bulgarian in n.m. stop lying i literally had colleages from bulgaria studying at our uni, in my own town you have people that still fly their bulgarian flags nothing happens to them ... again stop lying its not a good look this aint the 90s the internet exists
also no, bulgaria has always negated the existence of a macedonian nation and people, as in legally bulgaria does not recognize the existance of a macedonian nation and people, from any timeline, not from 45, not from prior, and not modern ... in the eyes of the bulgarian state we are all bulgarians from the lands of macedonia, hence macedonians, but not their own separate nation and people, even up until recently led a vote for the removal of macedonian as its own language back to a bulgarian dialect (its the european parlament so no one actually gives a fuck and their decisions have no sway in anything, which makes you whole talking point mute)
if it was just a bulgarian dialect why didnt bulgarian prints decide to print out "бели мугри" or even serbian ones for that matter (because we're also brianwashed by the serbs) we had to take it up to the north of croatia to get it print and distributed ... and funny how only crotia and slovenia defended us almost as if to tell you ignorant people something but its all едан народ две држави
if you can't or wont accept that difference there's no point in having this conversation, just stay in your ignorance while your state denies the existance of any form of macedonian nation/culture/language on the world stage
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
I still cant understand what you mean with not accept you when we literally recognized your country. What else is there to accept from a state point of view? If you dont accept a country you dont recognize it (Serbs with Kosovo, North and South Korea etc.). Since we recognize you and place an embassy in your country and vice versa, it means we do recognize you. The rest, once you stop denying common history or at the very least acknowledge commonly accepted facts, im sure people here will be more lenient towards your historical claims as well. There has been a lot of tampering from your side, but you know that, even if you dont admit it publicly.
shogunlazo@reddit
There absolutely is historical schizophrenia here in N.M. im not going to deny that part ...
I said a macedonian nation and a people as in, bulgaria recognized macedonians as bulgarians from the region of macedonia, not as their own modern people, we cant even argue when the split happened because bulgaria doesnt recognize that split happening ...
Also when it comes to tampering, we have no real power to tamper, we can't block bulgaria, we can't sanction bulgaria, we can't call for certain things to happen to bulgaria ... the only thing we can do is talk shit, so again this is not a 50/50
primera_radi@reddit
In the 2021 census, 3,504 people in North Macedonia identidied as Bulgarian, while 46,443 identified as Romani.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Bulgarian is the only ethnicity growing in every Macedonian census. Every other goes down. And this albeit Gestapo type repercussions if you declare Bulgarian.
shogunlazo@reddit
Nah, nothing happens to bulgarians, thats just state propaganda and lies, no one cares if you're bulgarian or greek, just dont thump politics into peoples faces, also be honest the only reason the bulgarian ethnicity is growing here was because of bulgarian passports for easy life in the EU, no some historical awakening 😂
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
You can get the passport and still declare as Macedonian bro. Otherwise there would be 200.000 Bulgarians in Macedonia. And I dont know about state propaganda when our minority representatives are beaten into the hospital and our clubs set on fire.
shogunlazo@reddit
Who are these representatives ? ... also where did you get the 200 000 bulgarians that declared them selfs bulgarians ... here's the census where are these 200 000 self declared bulgarians ?
https://www.stat.gov.mk/PrikaziSoopstenie_en.aspx?rbrtxt=146
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
200k have passports. I said if passport means declaration in census number would be 200k. Declaration is a different thing. Dunno their names bro, but it made news here.
shogunlazo@reddit
the census is annonimous so if they wanted to or felt bulgarian they could, fact that they arent declaring should tell you something, you can declare anything you want to declare
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Yes, if they wanted they could. And if they didnt want they also could. Still the facts remain that its the only growing ethnicity you have.
shogunlazo@reddit
What do you mean if they didn't want to they also could ? Why would someone declare himself something that he isnt ?
Jolly_Resolution_212@reddit
exactly lmao, but its sooo hard to explain this to everyone else
slight_digression@reddit
No you don't understand, there have been over 200 000 people that got BG passports since 2000. It was not because those people were getting it for economic reasons and the BG state was giving them out like candy, it is because they underwent the revelation that everyone is bulgarian. XD
oftara@reddit
Why would Bulgaria decide to do this if there wasn't a historical reason for that? Why would Macedonia allow it if this were done for pure economic reasons? Why would the EU allow this policy to continue after 2007? Why do I understand Macedonian perfectly well, despite never having read a single word in Macedonian? How do I have so many friends with Macedonian relatives, and land there?
slight_digression@reddit
Nice one.
Why would it? Doing so is withing people's rights and the state does not interfere.
Bold of you to assume that anyone in the EU knew what was happening at that time. Once they caught up, things toned down.
To understand Macedonian perfectly well you need formal education in the language in higher academia. By "understand" you probably mean "understand when spoken to" and this is probably based on your "every-day" colloquial conversations. There are many more things that you are missing.
Because you made friends? Probably?
oftara@reddit
Why would it? Doing so is withing people's rights and the state does not interfere.
> Because it makes your national identity questionable, when more than 1/10 have Bulgarian citizenship. We are not speaking of a nation, if so many are willing to accept another citizenship purely for economic reasons. There are lots of countries that prohibit dual citizenship. It's not like there is nothing you can't do to stop it.
Bold of you to assume that anyone in the EU knew what was happening at that time. Once they caught up, things toned down.
> Yeah, right. The EU is blind to what is happening in the most corrupt country in the bloc. And it's not towned down at all - 60k have received it in the past 4 years.
To understand Macedonian perfectly well you need formal education in the language in higher academia. By "understand" you probably mean "understand when spoken to" and this is probably based on your "every-day" colloquial conversations. There are many more things that you are missing.
> I don't have everyday conversations with Macedonians. I don't have any Macedonian friends. I have absolutely no problem understanding everyday conversations - had lots of them in bars and with uni colleagues. Of course, there are a few unknown words here and there, but I can get them from the context. With Serbian is the opposite - I catch a word here and there, but nothing more.
Because you made friends? Probably?
> My friends are Bulgarians, born, raised and educated here. They have grandparents and other distant relatives in Macedonia. (Who make the best rakija).
slight_digression@reddit
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. There are a lot of people everywhere that hold multiple citizenships. Doesn't Bulgaria have a diaspora?
Blind? No. Turning a blind eye? Maybe, until a threshold was met and it was too much.
Not perfect after all. And what do you mean you have no Macedonian friends but you had lots of everyday convos in bars in uni? Surely you made some friends. These conversations were they happening in Bulgaria and were they trying to respond in Bulgarian?
Yeah, that is not unusual in the Balkans. Maybe try having a conversation with the relatives of your friends. And then with some friends of those people, if nothing you will understand better Macedonian in the future.
oftara@reddit
Bulgaria gives citizenship to Macedonians who can prove Bulgarian origins. More than 200k Macedonians currently have Bulgarian citizenship. Do you really think that there are only 3504 ethnic Bulgarians there?
Jolly_Resolution_212@reddit
lmao :) its your people that are getting illegal payments in order to get the passports mate :) saying macedonians are bulgarians just because we found a way to work in EU is just a political agenda :) you prove this “origin” on a printed document
oftara@reddit
Sure, some of those registrations might be given illegally, but the sheer existence of this policy implies that we, Bulgarians, recognise Macedonians as fellow citizens, despite the strained political relations between the countries and the amount of hate crimes against ethnic Bulgarians in NM.
Furthermore, each of us can speak our native language and communicate without issues. And, I have friends with extended relatives from Macedonia.
I get that you would like to think of yourselves as a separate nation, but that's just not the historical reality. Why don't you channel the hatred into something other than NOT BEING Bulgarian, Serb, Greek or Albanian?
Jolly_Resolution_212@reddit
there isnt such thing as a “historical reality”. and, which hatred? i was trying to explain to your friend why this is happening. the hatred comes from greeks and bulgarians towards macedonians if we are being honest. it is a classic scenario of bullying, bulgaria and greece are way ahead of macedonia and way bigger so you get to say whatever you want :) theres also this quote i really like “history is written by the victors” :) read a book, there have always been macedonians :)
oftara@reddit
I can tell you the same thing: "Go read a book". That's exactly the problem - your books differ from everyone else's books. You are the one making up facts to push a political agenda, often in contradiction to your own interests. The harsh truth is that your (and sometimes ours) politicians are stirring up the hatred to retain control.
And why would we give you citizenship if we were hating you? This is beyond stupid, even for the Balkans.
Trip-Advisor@reddit
claiming you are just scammers isn't really the "gotcha" you think it is..
Jolly_Resolution_212@reddit
we havent scammed bulgarians out of anything mate, you get spawned in a shithole and try to find ways to live better, it is the circle of life…. wouldnt you do the same? :)
Trip-Advisor@reddit
tells a lot about "Macedonians" as nationality..
Maybe around 0.1% of us would do the same.
Jolly_Resolution_212@reddit
Hahahaha come on, be for real :) you are so brainwashed that you are wired to strike me with a comment about my nationality in order to what? offend me? it actually means you dont have the iq to stop and think about why this has happened and why it is still happening :) maybe you will grow out of it, but never laugh at another mans misfortune, it might bite you in the ass :)
Objective-Contact-15@reddit
Related to any of them? 😂
FadeToBlack2001@reddit
Hell no.
Starfalloss@reddit
I support the creation of a Roma principality in India.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
I would feel, truly, like a foreigner living in a municipality in India.
Starfalloss@reddit
It’s ok I support making you prince of one of the princely states! I don’t think you would feel like a foreigner then.
Significant_Clue_382@reddit
you using redditor as an insult while being the top 1% commenters on here
ChickenLegBizGuy@reddit
There is nothing wrong with being self aware.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
🤣🤣
Whole-O@reddit
All respect to Roma, but it's not a good idea for them to have self-governance or better said self-anarchy
Bataveljic@reddit
Come to sutko and see for yourself. It's no anarchy
Whole-O@reddit
When do they get married? How many early school leavers? How many do real jobs? How many on welfare?
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
The anarchy in question : Link
Anarchy is in the minds of the Ustaše.
Whole-O@reddit
When do they get married? How many early school leavers? How many do real jobs? How many on welfare? Wonderful if this is a success story, kudos to that municipality, but don't even pretend the things I'm asking about aren't relevant for the great majority of Roma people in the Balkans.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Social assistance is about 100 euros per month in North Macedonia, go away Ustaše
Yavannia@reddit
They already have that lol.
Sensitive_Pea4185@reddit
I think the German tried it once.
RebootAndPray@reddit
If the second picture is their municipal building, I just want to say it looks exactly how I would expect the seat of a municipality in a Roma area to look, lol.
As for the question, I am generally not a fan of creating administrative divisions along ethnic lines -including for my own. However, if it helps them integrate into wider society, I would not object to it.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
We find the same buildings among wealthy Roma in Romania; I think building this kind of thing is somehow instinctive, a European Baroque style with North Indian Rajasthani influences lmao??
Tedreak@reddit
Hideous eyesore
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
For a medieval setting near a desert, it's not bad.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
I want to say that there is no segregation. This has even encouraged Roma people to pursue more education and to better preserve their culture, especially their language. The Roma from North Macedonia, particularly in the municipality of Šuto Orizari in Skopje, and in Germany, have even built several mosques and houses that they rent out and that generate good income. They are doing much better than the majority of Roma in the Balkans, especially in terms of the economy, education, and abroad.
They are not outside the nationality of North Macedonia: they are Macedonian citizens just like everyone else. A municipality cannot be separated from the country it belongs to, and they are not enclosed by borders: the municipality is still governed by the law of North Macedonia.
They are literally happy https://youtu.be/i9_jnp0eOmQ
h_london1034@reddit
If they stay there.
oftara@reddit
This might be unconstitutional in Bulgaria - there should be no difference in how an administrative municipality functions, regardless of which ethnic group has the majority. They have the democratic opportunity to elect their representatives to the office.
GandalftheGreyhame@reddit
What?
Worldly-Ad-2244@reddit
Why should we make such a discrimination? They are citizens of the country, no different than the other citizens. If they want to work in the public sector they can do it wih their citizenship and level of education, in any municipality or public sector they want, and not somewhere specificaly with their race as a criterion
shogunlazo@reddit
how do you think these lands looked prior to the balkan wars ? prior to modern european style nation building ? it was very much cut up and regional...
the casualties post the balkan wars were 5 times bigger then the very wars them selfs
slight_digression@reddit
I think this is the "Most Reddit" comment there can be. Opinionated while ignorantly oblivious.
rintzscar@reddit
The comment is completely correct and follows the consensus in modern European policy.
slight_digression@reddit
I 100% agree with you. Basing your conclusions on generalization and stereotypes while ignoring the specifics of the issues does seem to have become a modern European policy and practice.
Starfalloss@reddit
Yeah and we’ve all seen how well that has worked out (not) right?
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Cringe
Worldly-Ad-2244@reddit
Ok I can think of some positives from it and I can of some negatives , mostly economically. But I am intrigued. How has it worked out so far for them?
fogleth@reddit
It functions normally, it's not a slum.
Potovalec14@reddit
We Europeans in a very broad sense have a very similair interpretation of the concept of private property and that it should be somewhat respected,
roma don't share this viewpoint with us at all, such cultural difference isn't a bad thing in itself, it just makes the coexistance of different European communities with roma very difficult,
I think this is a step in the right direction, they got their own municipality and can now squat where they want without being attacked by the local communities
JovanREDDIT1@reddit
It’s not only a place where they can “squat”. They live there, there’s housing, education (in Roma as well), administration… I would not say it’s ideal, and Šuto Orizari is the poorest part of the city leading to it being kinda characterised as a ghetto, but it’s already way better than the Roma that roam the streets and live in tents as nomads or smth.
Btw, this is not recent, Šuto Orizari was made kinda like a Roma suburb/part of Skopje after the earthquake.
electricwizzarrd@reddit
While you're not wrong, certain groups citizens of European countries that aren't gypsies also don't respect private property. In Bulgaria specifically, football hooligans vandalize things everywhere, scream and cities get lock down because of their bullshit, junkies and teenagers often straight up pee on public graves like Petko Karavelov's, which is downright disrespectful and disgusting, and leave their trash everywhere. What should be done about those?
MarkMew@reddit
That's the politest way I've seen this explained
andreimircea55@reddit
If it won’t be used for segregation like the US did with red lining, then I am cool with it because rromani people are so discriminated against in all of Europe and any action that actually helps fix that is good in my book.
Stealthfighter21@reddit
NM will do anything but include Bulgarians in their constitution.
Still-Incident1732@reddit
No. They should move to a place that matches their values. If they can't integrate (80% can't and won't) they should fuck off.
SAUR-ONE@reddit
Stop to be racists. It's "North Macedonia", not "Macedonia".
Objective-Contact-15@reddit
Dont nitpick, you know its the same.
danieljamesgillen@reddit
It’s not the same Macedonia is a province of Greece. ‘North Macedonia’ is an invented Bulgarian country designed to give the communist Balkan states a claim on the Aegean by saying ‘you Greeks are fake Greeks, we Slavs we are the real Greeks’.
Jolly_Resolution_212@reddit
nice picture, real “greek” features 🤣🤣🤣
Objective-Contact-15@reddit
Daniel, with all due respect, you dont know your arse from your head in this one so probably best if you sit this one out. Im not talking to you about Northern Ireland now am I? So you read some Wiki entries, move to Greece and all of a sudden you're the man to make the call on people and nations?! Because everything on the Balkan is so simple and clearly separated as black and white?! This is not the time of Queen Victoria, nobody needs your input here as your country did enough damage making those calls in the past. So pour yourself another ouzo and relax or go and save a cat up a tree, I dont care but please stfu. Cheers mate.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Someone said it.Well done!!!
NoNameStudios@reddit
Stfu
Late_Secret3480@reddit
After you soab
TonyDavidJones@reddit
How is that racist?
fogleth@reddit
It's not racist he's being Xenophobic.
Dragonchik@reddit
We know what it is. But it’s not necessary to write the whole name. Like “Bulgaria” for example. It’s “Republic of Bulgaria” but everyone says just Bulgaria.
Emotional_Fortune78@reddit
I missed the part where someone suggested we should always call the country "Republic of North Macedonia".
Active-Radish2813@reddit
Cringe
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Alhamdulillah, proof that Balkan blood flows in my veins, even if Shahrukh Khan haunts me.
PaleFactor6687@reddit
Romania, N Macedonia and Bulgaria are Roma nations anyway
Accomplished_Way_538@reddit
N9rth Macedonia! You have wrong title
ImportantUse7247@reddit
No need to. Every city in Serbia has a Cigamala.
Secret-Size6556@reddit
We should implement it in Romania as well. We have Hungarians municipalities that display the Hungarian flag and speak Hungarian also the Hungarian language is teached in schools. Rroma language should also be recognized as a maternal language and teached in schools.
8% of the Romanian population is declared part of the Rroma group but they don’t get the same treatment as other minorities and way fewer rights and social exclusion, resulting in a low education and work force inclusion.
Vdd666@reddit
Newsflash, all of that is already done...the 20% rule...
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
I am afraid that Romani will disappear in 100 to 200 years if each country does not standardize Romani according to its territory. It is likely that only the standardized Romani of Macedonia will survive, thanks to this municipality
BerryConsistent25@reddit
It's quite the opposite. According to statistics in Romania, rroma population fertility rate is 2.6, while romanian is between 1.3 and 1.7. The replacement level to maintain a stable population is 2.1. So romanians will be overtaken by rroma if these numbers maintain.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
There is no real causality, it's pure sophistry.
Secret-Size6556@reddit
Yes they are disappearing as kids born are registered as Romanians and only if they declare themselves part of the rroma they get registered as rroma. But most of them identify as Romanians especially because of the stigma.
As you can see my post got downvoted.
Far-Scene3695@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
no1rezefan@reddit
we need a roma israel in india
Your_Angel21@reddit
Everyone is freely allowed to move and live whenever they want on the territory of our country. And while some villages have a higher demographic density of Romani people, they still haven't decided to make a Romani only municipality naturally and I've never heard of that idea passed around. So if they don't feel like it's necessary or desired, it's not like we "don't allow them". They are citizens with full rights and decide where and how to live. Thus actually pushing them to live in a segregated municipality would be 1. Incredibly, incredibly illegal at a national and EU level 2. Unfeasible, unwanted and horrible from an ethical perspective
Early-Show2886@reddit
At Shutka they have an own Mosque, and also in the diaspora
Muslim roma from shutka are very devot muslims look, they have also you tube channel given dersija in romani language. They also have the quran in romani Language and their own Romani Imam.
this is there mosque:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xWwP-7G61s
romani dersija
https://www.youtube.com/@Romane_Dersija
about the romani Imam from shutka:
https://jordanink.wordpress.com/2010/06/04/macedonias-romani-imam/
his you tube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeSUHRBqqNc
Elmalukat@reddit
I don’t think there is a town or even village with Roma Majority in Albania, so it doesn’t make sense.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Instead of just lying, you can say no bro, don't worry
Elmalukat@reddit
You want your own town you go back to Rajasthan and Punjab.
I stated a fact, Roma are already recognized as a national minority with full rights.
We aren’t going to create “Roma” towns because that doesn’t make sense, nor are you majority in a single town in Albania.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Simply to appear woke for Western Europe, you cite a recognition obtained in 2017, which has no value for the lives of Roma, almost as if to tell me : Look, we recognize you as human beings now.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Now that you are recognized as human beings, it would be great from you if you could acting as such on a large scale.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
When systemic discrimination ends, it will happen naturally. But look at your reaction it will never stop
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
What is the discrimination?
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
To receive less favorable treatment can be used in almost any context, even in relation to crime
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
I prefer to use "treatment as per experienced behaviour".
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
A long word to say that I'm not wrong, as usual.
lolzimcoolwow@reddit
There simply isn’t ,at least not that albanians know about
For some reason in albania ,Roma haven’t had the same presence as in other countries
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Simply to appear woke for Western Europe, you cite a recognition obtained in 2017, which has no value for the lives of Roma, almost as if to tell me : Look, we recognize you as human beings now.
Objective-Contact-15@reddit
For the same reason there are hardly any other nationalities. You're weird.
/s
KittenDecomposer96@reddit
That's a big no from me dawg.
dobrits@reddit
This ethnicity thing is soo overused in macedonia, remnants from the communist block and eastern europe in general.
v4gl0k@reddit
He looks like Great Alexander ! Unbelievable !
SvetDigital@reddit
so, we will have a city full of Roma-majority. And they will still divided to rich and poor gypsies and will be separated by something like east and west berlin
This_Music682@reddit
Shutko is such a Unreal Place. You see Simple House next to Big Ones on the same Street. Very Interesting to see :)
gk98s@reddit
The only way this would benefit me as a taxpayer is if our tax money went to our municipalities and their tax money only went to their municipalities, the quality of our lives would increase drastically since they don't contribute that much
Jujux@reddit
It seems like a dumb idea, they should be encouraged to integrate, not segregate more.
drminjak@reddit
i would rather have them assimilated
but if they dont want to maybe croatians can make roma munucipalities so they can go there
Tacilo90@reddit
They turn everything into a shithole. Look at European cities/neighborhoods like Duisburg Marxloh, which are overrun with Romanian/Bulgarian Roma.
Lidge1337@reddit
Will we get one for each race? Cus that's called segregation and should not be done ever.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Most of the ethnic minorities in the Balkans already have their own countries. The Roma have been present in the Balkans for over 1,000 years, as shown by a Romani skeleton found in England, which is estimated to date back to the 11th century
KakaoFugl@reddit
There is already one in Balkans, it’s called Bulgaria 🤣
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Its funny cause visually I cant differentiate them from turks 🤣
Sectorgovernor@reddit
Uyghurs and Uzbeks also would easily pass as Roma, if they wouldn't have 'Asian eyes' .
Sectorgovernor@reddit
Sectorgovernor@reddit
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
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SunnyTheMasterSwitch@reddit
What is that supposed to mean birader, they're all over the balkans, in Turkey too.
lhookhaa@reddit
Just a troll.
curseuponyou@reddit
it's funny how ppl still take this sub seriously
Inevitable-Theory901@reddit
You’ll offend
stikaznorsk@reddit
Municipality, ignorant man, not a country. I know reading is difficult.
KakaoFugl@reddit
Ottoman municipality 🥵🥵
arcollll@reddit
humiliation ritual
ThingCandid9553@reddit
No, though I’d agree with setting up a gÿpsy municipality in India.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Moldova seems ideal to me, especially since a prince of Roma origin already reigned there for a few months.
ThingCandid9553@reddit
India is a better place though. You’d feel right at home.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
How do you expect me to feel at home there when I don't even share 2/4 of their culture ?
ThingCandid9553@reddit
You’ll get used to it when your cultural memory kicks in.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Nop, It's much more Balkan and Anatolian
NamSToboy@reddit
No they must integrate into already existing ones we cannot have different municipalities for a and b and c to please everyone and then call ourselves a country
amazingadaptence@reddit
I mean I'm not against it but like, romani urban settlements, they would most likely be severly underfunded which in turn would create the same issue we have now
amazingsaminator@reddit
Just displace them to Hungary
MackQ9@reddit
No thanks you can take them all
ExoticAd7546@reddit
No this is stupid. We have cities like Kardzhali that are majority turkish ethnically for example and are working fine, electing their people in the local government etc. Why do you need to segregate them on the constitutional level as in North Macedonia is beyond me
DocGerbill@reddit
No, we have enough headaches with Hungarian and Russian colonization.
JostGivesMoney@reddit
How about founding a Romani-Sinti State next to Israel. Imagine the outcome...
Intrepid-Amoeba9297@reddit
This is terrible
Sectorgovernor@reddit
It probably will happen anyways, because of demography (I hope I won't get a warning now)
ISmellLikeBlackTea@reddit
I don't understand Macedonia at all. The setup should be simple, if you live in Macedonia and have a passport you're Macedonian. You cannot have dual citizenship. There are only Macedonians.
papirici1@reddit
If you actually want to understand look up the history of how nations and their identities formed in the Balkans compared to America or France - nationality isn't the same as citizenship here and those words aren't used interchangeably, nor do they have to match.
Some Balkan countries, not sure about N. Macedonia, protect the citizens right to freely determine their nationality, forcing them one way or another is against the constitutions.
Also many of them have laws regarding citizenship where if certain conditions are met you are a citizen from birth, so if you have 2 of those it would again be quite a breach of rights (as they're currently set up) to demand a citizen give up their birthright citizenship somewhere else. However many Balkan countries do demand you give up your prior citizenship if you're acquiring theirs by naturalization
This-Wall-1331@reddit
I'm not a fan of segregation.
MLukaCro@reddit
They are most concentrates in Međimurje on Croatia, and I would definitely not support giving them a municipality. I would however, support dismantling all illegally built houses in their settlements (which would probably come up to 90% of buildings there).
KataraMan@reddit
We already have one, it's called Menidi
/s
Lunatik_C@reddit
Dendropotamos in the north, as well.
Moist-Park-4781@reddit
bofimar@reddit
Really? Not Agia Barbara?
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Another Greek to confirm 😄 ?
Sector3_Bucuresti@reddit
Yes, but only after we conquer India.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Alexander the Great did it, even though it was in what is now Pakistan, but at his time it was still considered India. Moreover, the earliest ancestors of the Roma are said to have come from three main regions, one of which is located in what is now Pakistan.
Besrax@reddit
I think that the best outcome for everybody, including the Romani themselves, is to integrate them into society rather than to segregate them.
Moanregr3t22@reddit
Shuto Orizari has been a thing for years and it hasn't exactly turned the country upside down, so the people treating this like a radical new experiment are ignoring reality.
RaidersGunz@reddit
If I speak im in big big trouble. And I dont eant to be in big trouble.
SOCDEMLIBSOC@reddit
That house is funny af
fortisqp@reddit
Biggest mistake
Dry_Dog_6648@reddit
Would you agree to allow the creation of a Japanese municipality in your country, as Macedonia has done?
melovepumpum69@reddit
Thanks but no thanks
Necessary-Bit4839@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]