Can someone explain Goce Delchev and VMRO to me? Seeking arguments from both sides.
Posted by tamzhebuduiya@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 66 comments
Recently, I watched a podcast (Infomax) in Macedonian where a Macedonian guy was furiously explaining to a Bulgarian that Goce Delchev is 100% Macedonian. However, looking through historical sources, he seems to be thoroughly Bulgarian—he identified as such, went to Bulgarian schools, and was even a teacher of Bulgarian language and literature.
In Serbian historiography, VMRO and Goce Delchev are treated as Bulgarian nationalists and a Bulgarian terrorist organization. Consequently, Goce Delčev Street in Belgrade was recently renamed because he was seen as a Bulgarian working for Bulgarian interests, which went against Serbian interests at the time.
Furthermore, during WWII, Delchev's nephew (or descendants of his siblings) served in the Bulgarian administration as the mayor of Kumanovo.
Today, some of his direct descendants and relatives of other prominent VMRO revolutionaries are still alive in Bulgaria, openly stating they have always been Bulgarian. I’ve even seen clips of them pleading to modern-day Macedonians to stop changing his identity and altering history.
From what I’ve seen, the common counter-arguments from the Macedonian side often focus on minor details:
• They claim he was a "Macedonian revolutionary," but historically, the movement was "Macedonian-Adrianople" (Makedonsko-odrinski), not just Macedonian.
• They argue that the name "Goce" doesn't exist in Bulgaria. However, "Goce" wasn't his actual first name; it was a nickname. His real name was Georgi Nikolov Delchev, using two last names (patronymic + surname), which is standard practice in Bulgaria, whereas modern Macedonians typically use only one.
I want to understand the Macedonian perspective better: What are the actual, strong historical arguments used to claim that Goce Delchev was strictly ethnic Macedonian and not Bulgarian or Bulgaro-Macedonian? What is the academic backing for the Macedonian narrative on this?
LibertyChecked28@reddit
1) He was a Bulgarian Anarcho Socialist from Macedonia. He had dedicated his life for Bulgaria, but he was also a Chauvist regarding his birth place who's ideal vision of Bulgaria was Metropolitian Anarchist union as opposed to centralised Monarchy which had made him infamous across the Bulgarian system of the time where it was mandatory worship Ferdinand′s piss as some sort of divine water. TLDR if Goce could help it he would rather see his home region grow with relative independence rather than answering before S*fia as some third rate province.
2) Macedonian ethnicity does not exist, North Macedonian national identity absolutley does- and since the core influence behind the upscaling of the Macedonian regional identity to a national one have been the 3 most narcissistic societies in existence, whom had tried to win them over boosing their ego while nagging them on what they ware and what they weren't, Macedonians had recieved the need for massive nationalist overcompensation with selective reading regarding historical events.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
So basically like Bosniaks and Montenegrins
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Bosniaks and Montenegrins had some form of political entity at some point. They are not like North Macedonia for sure.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
I was born in Yugoslavia, a political entity. Is my ethnicity Yugoslavian?
RegionSignificant977@reddit
You were born in a federation of separate political entities. In what republic of Yugoslavia were you born?
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Let's put it this way: What ethnicity is a person from Kingdom of Yugoslavia, a single sovereign state?
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
And what ethnicity was an Orthodox man born in the Austro-Hungarian Empire near the Adriatic coast?
RegionSignificant977@reddit
What do you mean? It was officially called the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Even better. Where are Montenegrins and Bosniaks there?
tamzhebuduiya@reddit (OP)
To be fair, Montenegrins have some form of state and independence even before modern Serbia and waay before modern N. Macedonia, but its still debatable did they see themselves as Serbs or as Montenegrins since Njegoš and Petrović dynasty see themselves as Serbs
RegionSignificant977@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bosnia
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Those are Bosnians, not Bosniaks
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Semantics.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
I mean, google it. Muslims adopted the term 'Bosniaks' in the 90s. Imagine if Kosovo Albanians suddenly aren't Albanians anymore but ethnically Kosovars.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
I don't care. You can't make them Serbs. Nor Yugoslavians. Nor we can make Macedonians Bulgarian. At the same time they have no right to make Gotse Delchev non Bulgarian. This is how it is and how it should be.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
I'm not saying anything, you started with this 'ethnic identity'
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Read again. I haven't said that. Macedonian as separate ethnic identity exist. There are over one million people that identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians.
Whether their ancestors from pre Balkan wars/WWI identified like that is debatable.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
That's what I meant when I joined in with Bosniaks and Montenegrins.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
I don't care. That's off topic.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Whatever, dude...
tamzhebuduiya@reddit (OP)
Yeah, both Montenegro and Bosnia have some form of state since medieval times, way more before North Macedonia, todays is just debatable were they part of Serbian states (or Croatian) or they got back than separated identity
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Somewhere there. Neglected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bosnia
Show me the same with Macedonia that wasn't Hellenic.
radiusmac@reddit
Macedonian ethnicity does not exist?
How is this comment even allowed? You literally have birth certificates from Usa/Canada from \~1900, in the fields for Ethnicity they are putted as Macedonians.
You literally have alive people in the part of Greece that they still sing and talk in Macedonian language.
What is this propaganda? This is literally every year, in the villages under Greece (today):
https://youtu.be/De3zOagVckQ
Tell me what they sing? Why there is no one single bulgarian songs on this hollidays? Stop with the propaganda. Come 2nd of August in Ovcarani, ask them to sing bulgarian song. You will get beaten.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Because my lil Bro you are an ethnic Slav, not the 7th secret Balkan race alongside Greeks, Turks, Slavs, Wlachs and Roma.
How is this comment even allowed?
radube@reddit
"Tell me what they sing?"
Here are the lyrics in Macedonian language shown below in the music video on the link. :
"Каде и да одиш, каде и да шеташ,
не се срами, не се плаши, Македонец да си.
Една мисла имаме, еден живот живееме,
Македонија цела да е, секој да ја знае."
Here is a text below in pure 100% official standard Bulgarian :
Където и да ходиш, където и да шеташ,
не се срами, не се плаши, Македонец си.
Една мисъл имаме, един живот живеем,
Македония цяла да е, всеки да я знае."
I am from Thrace region, here is the same text of the song if I was speaking my local (Thracian) dialect (or language) to the extreme.
Дету и да хоиш, дету и да шеташ,
ни съ срами, ни съ плаши, Македониец си.
Идна мисъл иами, eдин живот живейм,
Македония цяла да и, секи да я знай.
So is this an Eastern Bulgarian dialect, or is it a separate Slavic Thracian language that I speak ? Maybe I am not a Bulgarian, but a real Thracian ?
radiusmac@reddit
You forgot about the part „ние не сме грци, бугар или срби?“
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
Goce Delchev identified as a Macedonian Bulgarian. He fought for an autonomous Macedonia, not for Macedonia to be absorbed into Bulgaria. The slogan “Macedonia for the Macedonians” meant all people living in Macedonia, regardless of ethnicity. He opposed "the Vrhovists" i.e. the pro Bulgarian faction that wanted IMRO to serve Bulgarian state interests.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
The question here is was he identified as Bulgarian and why is that denied by people from North Macedonia. For many people in IMRO or IMORO autonomous Macedonia even as Ottoman province was far more achievable than unification with Bulgaria. In 1885 when East Roumelia and Principality of Bulgaria united and Serbia attacked Bulgaria. Greece would have done the same if we had common border with united Bulgaria. It was Ottoman Empire that was between Bulgaria and Greece at that time.
Romania demanded compensations in form of territorial тerritorial concessions from Bulgaria. Luckily they didn't attacked us. Macedonia unification with Bulgaria would be much worse, and wouldn't be possible without major war in the region at that time. IMRO/IMORO members knew it.
And again - That doesn't mean that you have no right to identify yourself as you wish, or a right to have separate, independent country. But we also have a right to protect our own Bulgarian identity, and the identity of the people that were Bulgarian, including Gotse Delchev and other historically important people.
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
Sorry, but I was lucky enough to meet my great grandparents and they told me their experience and the experience of their parents, relatives etc. They identified strictly as Macedonians (slavic speakers) and were from the Aegean part of Macedonia (todays Greece). Back then, of course there were no official Macedonian schools under the Ottoman Millet system, education was split between the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Greek Patriarchate. Slavic speakers in the region had to choose one and of course most went to Bulgarian (slavic) schools. Delchev was culturally and educationally tied to Bulgaria, but politically focused entirely on an independent Macedonia, which was a region at that time. The fact that this distinct South Slavic population refused to be assimilated (by the Bulgarians and Greeks) and survived for centuries proves that the Macedonian identity was real, not just a temporary political strategy.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Why there weren't Macedonian schools then? Schools and churches were funded by the respective communities. Those people created them. Why don't they create Macedonian schools and churches?
I also remember my great grandfather from Aegean Macedonia which lived long enough for me to remember him. He wasn't thinking like that. I don't remember my Stip born great grandfather, but Stip voted 100% for Bulgarian Exarchate. Why?
Who made Bulgarian Exarchate? Bulgaria wasn't a thing then. How and who funded and made that coordinated attempt to "bulgarize" those people without any part of Bulgaria that wasn't under Ottoman rule? It was natural reaction to attempts of Greeks to Hellenize them. And in some cases of Serbs to Serbise them.
Given the reaction on the Balkans which was barrel of gunpowder at the time on Unification of East Roumelia with Principality of Bulgaria in 1885, why do you think that those people weren't aware that if they unite with Bulgaria there will be war, and war with multiply neighbors? In 1885 after Bulgaria announced Unification, Serbia attacked Bulgaria, Greece would have attack it also, but Ottoman Empire was on it's way. We didn't have common border at that time. Romania demanded compensation in forms of territorial concessions and luckily they didn't take military actions. Ottomans were stopped from British for some reason. IMRO/IMORO people knew that. Why do you think it's that unlikely that they were demanding autonomy, not unification because of that? There are documents from IMRO. Those people clearly were identifying themselves as Bulgarian, and even only Bulgarians were accepted in the organization at the beginning. And again, that doesn't mean that you have no right to identify yourself as you wish, or a right to have separate, independent country. But we also have a right to protect our own Bulgarian identity, and the identity of the people that were Bulgarian, including Gotse Delchev and other historically important people. What's not fair about that?
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
You’re asking “Why weren’t there Macedonian schools?” but you’re forgetting that Macedonia was a geographic region, not a church millet, exarchate or patriarchate like Bulgaria and Greece. Under the Ottoman system, schools and churches were tied to religious communities, not to reGions. There was no “Macedonian millet” to fund Macedonian schools. People had to choose between the existing options which were the Bulgarian Exarchate or the Greek Patriarchate and in some areas, the Serbian influence you mentioned. The fact that Stip voted for the Exarchate shows AGAIN an alignment in a church national struggle, not necessarily a Bulgarian identity in the modern sense. Identities then were fluid and overlapping. Some people identified as Bulgarian, others as Macedonians in a regional or emerging national sense. Both existed at the same time. Recognizing that doesn’t deny Bulgarian history, it just avoids forcing single fixed identity onto a diverse population that made different choices under very constrained circumstances.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Bulgarians were the same until the Bulgarian Exarchate was created in 1870. Skopje was among the first to demand their own, separate Bulgarian Church in 1830 and many other places in Vardar Macedonia also were among the first. The local people demanded it, and it happened in 19-th century. Is there any rational explanation why they wanted Bulgarian, but not Macedonian if it was the same for both Bulgarians and Macedonians before creation of Bulgarian Exarchate.
There you go:
“Pictures From The Balkans” by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), page 5
With issue date and author. You can read it. Macedonian as separate people idea gained popularity after the WWI. Pushed by Comintern idea for creation of large USSR like federation on the Balkans, not separate, independent Macedonian state. With plans to annex all of the Macedonia, including Pirin and Aegean. Bulgarian Exarchate wasn't pushed by some external forces, but from local communities. This was pushed by the Comintern. Funded by USSR.
When were your great grandparents born? You are saying yourself that identity "is fluid". Why you think it's impossible that your own great grandparents to have had Bulgarian identity in late 19th century and prewar 20th century, that later transitioned to Macedonian?
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
I'll finish with this since you are selectively reading my replies.
Let's just "assume you are right" that Goce Delchev identified as Bulgarian. So what?
The furthest place he ever went in today's Bulgaria was Sofia the capital. And Sofia is only about 70 km from today's North Macedonian border. That's closer than many Macedonian towns are to Skopje.
Meanwhile, he never went to: Varna, Ruse, Shumen, Dobrich or any major city far east, north or south.
He spent his entire revolutionary life in Macedonia the region - Kukush (Kilkis), Solun (Thessaloniki), Štip, Bitola, Ser (Serres), Banica. That's where he organized, taught and died. That's one strong Macedonian identity. Just like the majority of Slavs in North Macedonia have.
Flimsy_Relief8238@reddit
Yeah, and he never went to Skopje btw. And his remains were still transported from Sofia (a city where he actually spent time in) to Skopje where he never even went
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
And why were Delchev's remains transported to Skopje? 😅😅 Because he explicitly wished to be buried in ***the capital of a free and independent Macedonia*** which in 1946, Skopje finally became that capital.
The text on his chest literally reads "We swear the future generations these sacred bones to be buried in the capital of independent Macedonia".
RegionSignificant977@reddit
And countless IMRO members and leaders came to Bulgaria after Vardar Macedonia became part of Yugoslavia. Including my Stip great grandfather that was also VMRO member. They also joined Bulgarian armed forces during the Balkan wars and WWI. Vast majority of them. In what world that would mean independent Macedonia If Bulgaria have won?
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
you just can't make up your mind, can you? 🤣 Even this CIA report admits that Bulgaria officially recognized Macedonians as a separate ethnic group from 1944 -1948 and that's official government policy, not just "Tito's invention".
Bulgaria recognized Macedonians because Stalin ordered it. Then when Stalin/Comintern changed their mind in 1948, Bulgaria flipped and called them "Bulgarians" again.
So Bulgaria kept changing its position 5 times in 20 years based on Soviet politics, not historical facts. If Macedonians were 'always Bulgarians,' why did Bulgaria officially recognize them as separate?
thanks to CIA for this document The Macedonian Question Never Dies in which they report on Bulgaria's never ending nationalistic chauvinism.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
So you are saying that you can't be Macedonian and Bulgarian simultaneously?
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
You're AGAIN ignoring facts and half of what I write and continue to mix up things. I'll go slowly now, point by point LMAO.
"Skopje demanded Bulgarian Church in 1830". Yes, Skopje and other places in Vardar Macedonia (Macedonian REGION) demanded autonomy from the Greek Patriarchate and joined the Bulgarian Exarchate when it was created in 1870 MAINLY because they were rejecting Greek church dominance, not declaring Bulgarian national identity. Under the Ottoman millet system, if you weren't Muslim, you had to belong to either the Greek Patriarchate or the Bulgarian Exarchate. Choosing the Exarchate literally meant "we want Slavic language services and our own bishops," not "we are Bulgarians".
John Foster Fraser's 1906 quote lol. First, Fraser was a British journalist, not a historian. Second, he's describing what HE OBSERVED in 1906. Third, he literally says "they all curse the Turk and they love Macedonia" that's regional Macedonian identity, which is exactly what you're denying.
"Macedonian identity gained popularity after WWI, pushed by Comintern/ USSR". Ok lol yes? The Comintern SUPPORTED the Macedonian national identity in the 1920s, 1930s, DID NOT invent it.
AND, evidence of distinct Macedonian identity exists before that:
- Georgi Pulevski (1875): Published "Dictionary of Three languages: Macedonian, Albanian, Turkish" calling Macedonians a separate nation;
- Krste Misirkov (1903): Published "On Macedonian Matters" arguing for separate Macedonian language and nationhood;
- Macedonian Literary Society (1902): Established in St. Petersburg; published "Macedonian Voice" newspaper (1913 - 1914);
- IMRO leaders: Boris Sarafov (1901–1902): "We the Macedonians are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians, but simply Macedonians".
You and your country are forcing "either Bulgarian or Macedonian, no in between." Doesn't work that way.
determine96@reddit
Bro, have you read what people such as Miladinov's brothers were writing, Kuzman Shapkarev, Grigor Prlichev and others so you claim many of the stuff you are claiming ?
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
Bro, you ignored Pulevski, Misirkov, Sarafov, the Macedonian Literary Society and decided to list those that support your side? How typical. As we can see from the comments, as well as in reality, there are 2 sides of this story. 🙃
determine96@reddit
I mean yep, and I'm sayimg you ignored the others
Yes, there are 2 sides of this story, but when the stories almost completely oppose each other with each side having some solid arguments how they can meet in the middle ?
RegionSignificant977@reddit
How did Boris Sarafov said that, when IMORO/IMRO only accepted Bulgarians at first.
Why was Bulgarian Exarchate created but not Macedonian? Why would people rebel to someone that forced them different identity to accept other different identity?
Why should Fraser be historian? He wrote what he seen in 1906. You don't have to be historian to talk and understand the self identification of the people in present time. He wrote what he saw. Which is exactly what journalist do.
Pulevski lived and died in Bulgaria. Was awarded Bulgarian state pension in Bulgaria. His tomb is in Sofia.
Kraste Misirkov also identified himself as Bulgarian. And also lived and died in Bulgaria.
Ever heard about Stojan Novakovic? Why would a Serbian say that Macedonization can be used to separate people in Vardar Macedonia from Bulgarians with a goal to serbinize them?
And it is you that are saying that you can be either Bulgarian or Macedonian, but not both. Half of my family are like that. Bulgarian-Macedonian. Go to Pirin and ask them if they are Macedonian.
determine96@reddit
Yeah some and others identified differently, but your historiography "choose" some people as the "good Macedonians" and claim they weren't considering themselves as Bulgarians despite some of them wrote otherwise.
Panda-Wanda-8231@reddit
Delcev fought for Autonomous Macedonia and Odrinsko within the Ottoman Empire. He was in close communication and collaboration with Bulgarian leaders such as the prime minister. There is a memory of Andon Koseto that Delcev considered unification with Bulgaria as the end goal.
Same is testified by the chairman of VMRO during the time of Delcev - Hristo Tatarchev who in his memories testifies that the end goal of the organisation upon its creation was unification with Bulgaria.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
He is Bulgarian, no doubt here. Even the Macedonians agree. Most of them.
You can argue about his ideas, that is fair.
In any case, I don't see an issue with him being Bulgarian and an important figure in Macedonian history. Saying that he is 100% Macedonian and has nothing to do with Bulgaria, because you said so is what we object to.
vbd71@reddit
The explanation is easy. He was BOTH Macedonian and Bulgarian.
The current political climate, however, ensures that people that are both Macedonian and Bulgarian barely exist anymore, if at all. They all have to choose a side.
markohf12@reddit
Goce Delchev identified as Bulgarian and fought for an autonomous and independent Macedonia for all Macedonians against the Ottomans and was against Macedonia being a part of Bulgaria and was really anti-Tsar.
The Bulgarians only look at the first part, we only look at the second part.
Panda-Wanda-8231@reddit
markohf12@reddit
I mean, the organization changed the name removing the "Bulgarian" from the "Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Committees".
Their idea was a Macedonia for Macedonians which obv. included the Bulgarians as a majority, but was not to be a Bulgarian state, nor to be unified with Bulgaria.
determine96@reddit
I agree with what you are saying and now I know why you are saying it in response to the Bulgarian claims, but I don't think most of the Macedonians will also agree with you and your interpretations.
markohf12@reddit
That's because most Macedonians go by nationalistic feelings especially party-views and I go by facts, whether I like them or not.
One of my grandma's brothers happened to move from Skopje to Sofia 1 year before WW2 and they still kept the connection somewhat alive, when they meet for the first time in the 1970s, he was accused of being a Yugoslav spy and spent 4 years in jail, they both died pre-1990s before the border was open again. If they both went to such lengths to reestablish family ties, I am sure that both sides had big interest to keep us apart, so when I learned in school that "we have nothing to do with the Bulgarians in any point in time" simply just didn't fly with me.
So my views are more neutral than what the avg. Macedonian thinks. Keep in mind that many people have absolutely no records of their families pre WW2.
This does not mean that all Bulgarian claims are accurate, some are laughable even from a Macedonian-neutral perspective.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
What do you think of Bulgarian interpretation that unification of Macedonia with Bulgaria would have been extremely difficult and dangerous at that time and that's why IMRO was pushing for greater autonomy or independence. In support of that I can apply the first statute of IMRO/IMORO, which states that only Bulgarians can be members of the organization. And Serbo-Bulgarian war the reason for which was unification of East Roumelia with Principality of Bulgaria. Given that, it was clearly not very safe even to talk about further expanding of Bulgaria, because all of Bulgaria members at the time were against that, and most of the Great powers also were against that because of their own interests in the region. Still later on, in Balkan and WWI vast majority of IMRO joined Bulgarian Armed Forces, which in case of winning would result of unification of Bulgaria and Macedonia. And they were aware of that. Then, after the WWI came the dissapointment from the war and huge toll of the war in every imaginable way. Which paved the way of Comintern internationalism, federalism, etc.
And mandatory - That doesn't mean that you have no right to identify yourself as you wish, or a right to have separate, independent country. But we also have a right to protect our own Bulgarian identity, and the identity of the people that were Bulgarian, including Gotse Delchev.
Panda-Wanda-8231@reddit
Yes, I agree with what you are saying, the organization indeed changed their name to attract other ethnicities in the fight and to be perceived as broader movement.
They did not changed their name to oppose the idea of unification with Bulgaria or as a form of political separatism from the rest of the Bulgarian population.
As indicated from different sources, they were initially after the model of unification following the example of East Rumelia, at certain point this was no longer possible.
Whenever there was a chance for adding these lands to Bulgaria VMRO was all in, including figures like Sandanski and Todor Panitsa. I am talking about first and second balkan war and WWI.
tamzhebuduiya@reddit (OP)
Could we agree that modern Macedonian identity, culture, and language share deep historical roots with the medieval Bulgarian state, while acknowledging that contemporary Bulgaria and North Macedonia are distinct modern nations that evolved from this shared medieval heritage? Both nation contributed for same goals during history
markohf12@reddit
Yes, modern Macedonian identity exists from the late 1800s, I am not proficient in pre-1800s history tbh, so probably yes especially for the ones in the east, with a small note that not all Macedonians are "native" so to say, there are a lot of Macedonians with Serbian ancestry even with Macedonian surnames, they probably are not connected to Bulgaria in anyway.
tamzhebuduiya@reddit (OP)
Of course, but elements like the Serbs, Vlachs, and Greeks eventually integrated into Macedonian culture, which itself preserved the heritage of medieval Bulgaria. Historical capitals like Ohrid, Turnovo, and Preslav were centers for the people living across the entire region, from Varna all the way to Ohrid.
Roufianos255@reddit
All people from North Macedonia identified as Bulgarian at the time. During his life, the idea of a Macedonian nationality was a fringe idea confined to people like Misirkov.
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
Most Slavic speaking Orthodox Christians in "Ottoman Macedonia" identified as Bulgarian and not as Macedonians, because the Ottoman system classified people by church affiliation rather than ethnicity. The term "Macedonian" at that time referred to people living in the geographic region of Macedonia, not to a separate ethnic group. The distinct ethnic Macedonian identity we know today began as a minority movement in the late 19th century but did not become the mass consensus of the general public until the mid 20th century. So, today, under the UN, the International Law and the 2018 Prespa Agreement, the term "Macedonian" is officially recognized as the nationality and ethnic identity of the primary population of North Macedonia, as well as the name of their official Slavic language.
Roufianos255@reddit
It's not just a church thing. Read some archives from people who visited. Plenty of references to Bulgarian race and language.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
That church thing is laughable. Churches and schools at the time were funded and supported by local communities. When some people started telling them who they are and what they are, those people rebelled and plebiscite was organized for them by the Ottoman Sultan to say what they want. And they stated that they want Bulgarian church. Which led to creation of Bulgarian Exarchate even before any part of Bulgaria was liberated. Which makes coordinated attempts for "Bulgarization" of those people highly unlikely. Not only that, but many places in Vardar Macedonia were the first to explicitly state that they want Bulgarian church. Not Macedonian.
Also the huge majority of IMRO that was main liberation movement in Macedonia joined Bulgarian Royal Army during the Balkan Wars and WWI.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
Stojan Novaković, a prominent 19th-century Serbian politician, diplomat, and scholar, is widely recognized in Balkan historiography as a primary architect of "Macedonism"—a geopolitical strategy designed to foster a distinct Macedonian identity among the Slavic population of Ottoman Macedonia.
For people from North Macedonia - That doesn't mean that you have no right to identify yourself as you wish, or a right to have separate, independent country. But we also have a right to protect our own Bulgarian identity, and the identity of the people that were Bulgarian, including Gotse Delchev and other historically important people.
elmanager@reddit
The "macedonian perspective" has been called the " macedonian question" and now the result is 3 generation brainwashed nation. This is a CIA report from 1967/1968. CIA Report link
Nullen-Protocol@reddit
Why are you manipulating? 😏 This CIA document REPORTS on Bulgarian's propaganda that Macedonian identity was "invented", they are NOT endorsing that claim. Even if Tito formalized the Macedonian nation in 1944 that doesn't mean it was created from nothing. There were Macedonian intellectuals arguing for separate identity since the 1870s. Thank you for attaching the link. People, read the FULL document, not such out of context screenshots. CIA Report link
RustCohle_23@reddit
Your first paragraph basically summarizes every debate on the topic.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
First statute of the IMRO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_statute_of_the_IMRO