Why are autogyros niche and not more popular?
Posted by hgwelz@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 131 comments
Posted by hgwelz@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 131 comments
kevinossia@reddit
They have no reason to exist.
Gyroplanes are the predecessor to the helicopter, invented by Juan de la Cierva as a compromise between an airplane and Sikorsky’s eventual invention of the helicopter.
They combine the worst attributes of an airplane (can’t hover) with the worst attributes of a helicopter (aeromechanical complexity of a spinning wing).
They are basically a more expensive, but less capable, Cessna 152. Even the biggest gyroplane can only seat two people. No cargo. No real capability or use case beyond burning holes in the sky.
The gyroplane was obsolete the moment the helicopter was invented.
If you want speed, distance, and efficiency at the expense of requiring a runway, learn airplanes.
If you want to be able to land anywhere at the cost of being slower, smaller, and more expensive, learn helicopters.
If, for some reason, you want neither of these things…the gyroplane may just be what you need.
SeaMareOcean@reddit
It’s really sad to see a shitty comment such as your get so much attention, just a bunch of REALLY incorrect information spewed with obvious bias.
IdaCraddock69@reddit
They’re also obnoxiously loud
hgwelz@reddit (OP)
Louder than a small Cessna or Robinson?
IdaCraddock69@reddit
well - I'm just speaking as someone who lives under a flight path for a lot of commercial, emergency and private craft. the thing I've noticed w gyros is they can fly very low and make very tight turns so they can kind of 'hover' (not sure if they do technically like helicopters) so its close and an irritating sound and it keeps hanging around. as far as sheer decibel levels I don't know
the only aircraft that's loud enough that the dogs consistently bark at them around here though are the hot air balloons when they fly too low, but that's another story
sauzbozz@reddit
I had a hot air balloon land in a graveyard down the street and couldn't believe how loud they were. I was in my house and had no idea what was going on until I looked out the window I saw a hot air balloon barley scraping by the tops of the trees and telephone pulls like 20 feet from my house.
_araqiel@reddit
What’s so loud about them, just the burner or something else?
IdaCraddock69@reddit
Yeah we’ve had a number of near misses in my neighborhood, none of the envelopes have visible reg numbers so the FAA ‘can’t’ take a report
It’s very frustrating. They’re magical but deadly!
PowwowPuffer@reddit
They cannot hover like a helicopter because the rotor blades lack pitch control. Once in motion, the rotor acts as a circular shaped wing which creates lift in the same manner as a regular wing.
IdaCraddock69@reddit
Thank you for this explanation! Very interesting
hgwelz@reddit (OP)
👍
OZZMAN8@reddit
I mean it's kind of the jet ski of the sky. %98 of jetski use is to go for a rip. Yeah there's some work that is done with them but on the whole it's just for fun. Gyros are kind of the same thing. I rode in one once and it was a blast. Open cockpit zipping around. It was amazing to see the way you could get going at a good clip and then turn all that speed into nearly straight upward lift. Hardly burned any gas.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
Paramotors would like a word
Lampwick@reddit
Yeah, I was thinking a parafoil might be a less mechanically janky solution than a rotorwing, but having seen how touchy those paramotor takeoffs can be with timing it with the wind, I think the autogyro has a slight advantage. If you want your dangerous truck/trailer portable sky-jetski to fly off an arbitrary flat runway/field without waiting for the right breeze, autogyro has the edge.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
What’s a parafoil?
Other than the limitation of like 15mph wind, how are they janky?
An autogyro can fly in stronger wind and more turbulence for sure. But it can’t rip around like a paramotor, or fly as high, or takeoff/land without a runway.
Forest_Orc@reddit
You miss that if you fly a C152, a paramotor, a trike, or a coyote, and even higher end personal aviaton you're not looking for a cheap and efficient way to travel (first class ticket in high speed train will be faster, more comfortable, and cheaper) but about a fun toy. And there is definitely a niche for gyro, if r people who can't afford helo, but like the concept of rotating wing. Ironically, we see more porosity between weight shift trike and gyro, than between 3 axis and gyro.
Any_Purchase_3880@reddit
If you like flying low and slow they're excellent.
They can fly as slow as 20 knots. You can "park" it in the air by facing a headwind if the winds exceed your minimum level flight speed.
You can land and take off on extremely short runways. It can't stall...it just begins autorotating and slowly descending.
The rotor really isn't that mechanically complicated.
The rotor absorbs turbulence (rotor speed increases when in turbulence and absorbs it).
There are absolutely 4 seater gyroplanes.
They take up minimal hangar space.
I used to think like you. Watch backcountry gyros YouTube stuff it changed my mind. Now I want to fly one because they look like a lot of fun.
https://youtube.com/@backcountrygyro?si=YBZgcB8BP3_ZUBpR
gfivksiausuwjtjtnv@reddit
Sounds like a helicopter tho
Are they way cheaper than helis?
Any_Purchase_3880@reddit
Yes. Significantly. Especially maintenance costs.
DismalAd6639@reddit
A helicopter literally does all of that
ShiftNo4764@reddit
Helicopters are far more mechanically complex too.
Emergency-Scheme6002@reddit
but a lot more expensive
Fun_Value1184@reddit
Different pilots license right too?
KokoTheTalkingApe@reddit
Some will spin up the big rotor under power, so the pilot just tilts the blades up (sorry, I don't know the right terms) and the craft leaps into the air from a dead stop.
Wildfires are bad in my state. If I had a jillion dollars, I might keep a VTOL autogiro on the roof as an escape vehicle.
Any_Purchase_3880@reddit
Yep they call it jumping. It's not like perfectly VTOL but damn near. They can take off on helipads for example
DEADB33F@reddit
That stick shake looks awful. He should get that fixed.
Rotor blade imbalance?
targetDrone@reddit
I've only been in one once, and it wasn't a fancy thing like these videos, more down the paraglider end of the scale, but the shake seems normal.
We taxied out and lined up at end of a 1,500m of runway, the pilot engaged the main rotor power and the whole thing shook horrifically. Like blurry vision i-think-we-need-to-get-out style shaking. Then he released the brakes and we were airborne in a few metres and flying smoothly.
Fly runway heading til clear of the field felt like an age.
DarkArcher__@reddit
That looked like a carrier takeoff from the cockpit
ElenaKoslowski@reddit
You mean a third of a helipad? Holy moly, that was impressive!
squeeby@reddit
I thought the main rotor didn’t have a drive?
KokoTheTalkingApe@reddit
On certain models the main rotor can connect to the motor with a clutch just for takeoff. In flight the pilot opens the clutch and lets the rotor air-rotate.
BillWilberforce@reddit
Helicopters autogyrate to the ground as well.
Lampwick@reddit
...or fit on a trailer...
Far_Top_7663@reddit
Some of these things are inaccurate or misleading.
Gyroplanes can't hover but can fly very slow and take off and especially land in a very short distance, much much shorter than a Cessna 150 ever could.
And they are not anywhere as complex as a helicopter. The engine is not connected to the main rotor which is free-spinning, there is no collective control (main rotor is constant pitch), the cyclic is just tilting the hole rotor rather than using a swash plate or similar that changes the pitch of the blade in each location around the circle, there is no power transmission between the main rotor and the tail rotor and no pitch control of the tail rotor, because there is no tail rotor. I would argue that autogiro is no more complex than your Cessna 150.
Emergency-Scheme6002@reddit
Some Autogyros have a clutch to spin up the main rotor before taking off almost vertically, which adds a bit of complexity but since it is not intended to run for long periods of time I can imagine it is less mechanically complex and heavy than that of a helicopter
toothslingerr@reddit
And arguably, safer.
Great option for a weekend hobby
lama579@reddit
What if I need to save my roommate and his girlfriend from Frankenstein on top of an exploding zeppelin?
poopspeedstream@reddit
Worst attribute of a plane? Can’t hover
Had me laughing lol
yellow_1173@reddit
Technically a plane can hover, even non-VTOL/STOVL. The plane just has to fly into a headwind greater than its stall speed, and then match that velocity with its air speed making a ground speed of zero.
General_James@reddit
That last line is incredibly funny
DonaldCrowhurst@reddit
Well said.
ElSquibbonator@reddit
Autogyros do have one thing going for them-- they can fly at much lower speeds than an airplane or helicopter, and this makes them useful for jobs where loitering slowly is more important than flying fast or hovering. In Australia, for example, they're reasonably popular for agricultural purposes such as herding cattle and spraying crops.
kevinossia@reddit
A helicopter can fly at _zero_ airspeed so I’m not sure what you mean by “much lower speeds than an airplane or helicopter.”
Wambamslam-n-go@reddit
And yet there’s still assholes making rotorwash with these things…
Aesma42@reddit
They're STOL unlike a C152. If you can prerotate the rotor (not all can do it) they can jump into the air.
BusyContract2599@reddit
Or buy yourself a V-22 Osprey
FlowAndSwerve@reddit
The V-22 Osprey would like a word...
OGD2068@reddit
It would if it didn't crash on the way to the meeting
FlowAndSwerve@reddit
MrOatButtBottom@reddit
That wacky German Gyrokite they would tow behind u boats seem like a fun and barely practical use case for these, but now with drones I can only see them used for recreational purposes, and a parasail is safer.
Tricky_Big_8774@reddit
Based on that description and knowing the human race, I'm shocked we don't see them everywhere.
Quattuor@reddit
Electric VTOL entered the chat :)
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
That's a takedown and a half
CrabNebula_@reddit
They are for rich old people who can fly but have nothing to do in their spare time. Source, my dad bought an auto gyro after flying Helicopters. He got bored and now has a plane
Few_Composer5125@reddit
The fact that almost any mechanical failure ends in death would likely be a factor.
thattogoguy@reddit
Autogyros don't do anything that a helicopter doesn't do better and safer, let alone an airplane.
Like pretty much every other aircraft outside of those, the vast majority of their use comes down to recreational and hobby flying. The only reason to fly an autogyro is because you want to fly an autogyro.
2001_Arabian_Nights@reddit
I think that their niche got taken over by powered-paragliders.
They’re very similar in how they operate, a pusher motor with something to lift you up on top. Autogyros aren’t all that expensive or complicated, much simpler than a helicopter, but powered-paragliders are even simpler and cheaper.
I have a neighbor near me who used to fly an autogyro from his little air-strip on his ranch, but he switched to powered-paragliders, and now he flies around with a little squadron sometimes.
mkosmo@reddit
Autogyros just fly much more like airplanes than PPCs do. I like the idea of both and want to learn PPCs, but my fixed-wing experience lends itself to gyros more easily.
PerceptiveGoose@reddit
PPCs are very simple and with a fixed-wing private you can get the Sport endorsement for them in no time at all, highly recommend going for it!
mkosmo@reddit
It was my understanding that most PPCs (at least non-trike, solo rigs) were UL/103-eligible, so I wasn't even thinking about the PPC rating.
Other than mandatory instruction and the checkride, any reason to bother if somebody with a fixed wing certificate gets appropriately instructed but sticks to 103-eligible rigs?
PerceptiveGoose@reddit
Oh PPGs like you're describing are certainly fine if you want to stick to Part 103, but with how easy it is to pick up PPC privileges it can be very nice to have the option to take passengers or travel longer distances. It would only require a proficiency check from a CFI-S, I was able to complete mine after about five hours of training.
With a proper E-LSA or S-LSA PPC, you can also log the time towards various certificate minimums which is nice considering how cheap they are to operate.
mkosmo@reddit
E-LSA PPCs are out there? Okay, that definitely perks my ears, especially if E-LSA PPCs are the same as they are in airplanes with the repairman certificate opportunities.
PerceptiveGoose@reddit
They are! I haven't picked up the LRSM myself yet, so I still have my E-LSA PPC annual done by a shop but the costs of ownership are still quite low.
I really feel that PPCs are pretty underrated for what they offer.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
Can they spiral?
PerceptiveGoose@reddit
Physically? Sure, you can grab a steering line and pull it hard to spiral. Doing so likely isn't going to be permitted by the operating limitations for a lot of E-LSAs and S-LSAs though.
PPGs are a much better fit than PPCs if aerobatic fun is the goal. I'm hoping to be able to get into those soon too since PPCs and skydiving are two of my favorite things.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
Try it! PPG vs PPC is like dirt bike vs golf cart.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
PPCs aren’t part 103 for the most part. PPGs are, and there’s no instruction/certification requirement for part 103. I would highly recommend it though, cheaper than hospital bills.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
We’re talking PPG not PPC.
TheTucsonTarmac@reddit
But can he defend his honor like Little Nellie
Biggyniner@reddit
I would love to get one and my gyro PPL (I have my Airplane PPL), but for the cost of a modern, efficient and safe gyro - you could get a very capable plane and have more options.
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
This
Gryphus1CZ@reddit
They dont really have much of advantage over other types of aircraft and are also pretty dangerous statistically
I've met three pilots of gyrocopters and two of them regretted buying it and third one crashed it
op3noc3an@reddit
They are the moped of the sky. Gross
electric__jellyfish@reddit
I build and sell them, the customer is always the i want to have fun type they already own a plane or two and want something not boring. Gyros are a bunch of fun and incredibly safe machines. Most guys fly at about 500 ft open cockpit, its the motorcycle of the sky. The biggest appeal to that crowd looking for a fun toy is the safety that gyros provide over helicopters and fixed wing aircraft.
lti4all@reddit
slow speeds, poor economy, vibration, can’t carry much
scaledandIsolated20@reddit
Honestly I’d ride in one just to say I’ve been in a gyro but they’re so tiny and cute until something happens 😅 I finally got to see them in person not too long ago, really want to go up for an inside view but didn’t get the chance
ManQu69@reddit
Ah "Little Nelly" , I know , I know, not the slightest relation but its what came to ming.....lol
gsmitheidw1@reddit
Can't believe I had to scroll this far for this reference.
ManQu69@reddit
Top left change "sort By" to New ... lol
gsmitheidw1@reddit
Ah but I would have expected this reference to have been posted earlier by someone 😀
ManQu69@reddit
Ahhhh sorry. Well i'd say old age had a part to play but at 60 i'm only a whipper snapper...
gsmitheidw1@reddit
It's a shame autogyros didn't gain more popularity, it sounds like a large portion of the failure post WW2 is the shambles of the Beagle company which worked with Wallis. He clearly had some great engineering improvements but they were disorganised and not making profits on any of their regular products let alone in a position to popularise his autogyros.
ManQu69@reddit
Just on the Wallis Gyro in the wiki was this snippit.... "Few Wallis autogyros have been operated privately, with nearly all of them, "5", being used for research and demonstration flying by Wallis himself. Wallis withdrew all his autogyros from use by anyone other than himself, after the crash of WA-117 G-AXAR at the 1970 Farnborough Air Show.^(")
DEADB33F@reddit
I'd imagine it's because for a given payload capacity they're about half the fuel efficiency of a plane.
Granted, they're more efficient than a helicopter, but can't hover or land & take off from a tiny area like a helicopter can.
1991atco@reddit
They're what id describe as "a bit crashy".
WillyCZE@reddit
They're pretty cool, check out GyroMotion, they make road legal autogyros, that's one niche they're good for. From my knowledge they can't go very far with good useful load, as they drink roughly twice as much or more than an equivalent fixed wing LSA.
Mellows333@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/maybemaybemaybe/s/VQ2riikh8S
DevilsInkpot@reddit
Thanks! 😊
CaptLoads@reddit
No thanks. Don't want shitty drivers on the road being shitty drivers in the air above my house.
asshat_deluxe@reddit
Because dying is not a good way of living
Wallybeaver74@reddit
There are much better ways of getting to Siam nowadays.
cllatgmail@reddit
Specifically the Prussian Consulate?
Kimi4201@reddit
Beat me to it…
Johnny_Dickshot@reddit
If Microsoft Flight Simulator 24 is any indication, it’s because the passenger’s head often clips through the roof of the vehicle, which I suspect would lead to catastrophic consequences.
time_to_reset@reddit
Same reason my wife doesn't like to go with me in a convertible. Messes up her hair.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
I don’t think I could afford one of those neither
Dewey081@reddit
Gyrocopters are aviations' unicycle.
emu_veteran@reddit
I actually like them and plan on getting one but yeah you rarely see them down here in Australia as well.
astral__monk@reddit
Most of the expense of a light helicopter, but with none of the tangible helicopter benefits.
More expensive than most light aircraft, with worse overall performance.
It's the worst qualities of each category without the main benefits of either.
They're neat for a first ride though. Really nimble, super maneuverable. But then you're inevitably left with the question... What am I supposed to do with it? And that's before the purchase bill hits you.
Red5_StandingDown@reddit
The Humungus said no
regularfellar@reddit
I met a guy with one on a trailer once, and I said "hey man, I heard these things crash a lot," and he went " I've crashed this one three times!"
Honest_Radio8983@reddit
There is a reason they are called “widow makers”.
Accurate_Mobile9005@reddit
Because it's not feasible for the average person to just hop in one and fly off somewhere. In the states the FAA controls all lmao.
TheOriginalJBones@reddit
Plenty of people hop in small aircraft and fly somewhere all the time in the US. I do it all the time.
Accurate_Mobile9005@reddit
Not in the sense that you can fly from your house to your job though. These were meant to supplant cars.
Final_Ad_9920@reddit
People have this funny, unrelenting desire to stay alive, for the most part.
MacAttack0711@reddit
As others have stated, they sort of do a bit of everything and yet a lot of nothing. They’re a fun toy and that’s about it. I intend to eventually get my gyrocopter sport license just to have a sport license of some sort to complement all my other private and commercial ratings, but more for novelty and because I have family ties to the creation of gyrocopters.
hgwelz@reddit (OP)
Related to this, gyrocopter licenses are a dead end, while you can graduate from a Cessna 150 to larger planes and more complicated ratings.
Boating_Enthusiast@reddit
Interesting. Some of the gyrocopter schools claim that gyro hours count as rotor wing hours for certs/licensing. They specifically market it as a cheaper way to work towards helicopter certs without paying for expensive helicopter hours.
MacAttack0711@reddit
It counts as rotor time so technically not wrong. It’s all outlined in Part 61 of the FARs
Unlikely_Cancel713@reddit
"As others have stated, they sort of do a bit of everything and yet a lot of nothing. They’re a fun toy and that’s about it."
Just like a butt plug.
EagleE4@reddit
If you ever fly one you’ll know why lol
42ElectricSundaes@reddit
They seem like very elaborate suicides to me
masterofkittens88@reddit
Saw one of these out in Grand Junction years ago, thought it looked like a flying minivan so we all kind of took note of it. Next morning on the news there it was again but this time in Colorado River.
poopspeedstream@reddit
Is this…tele skiing but for planes?
Vegetable_Log_3837@reddit
lol yes
King_TUT_of_pugs@reddit
Expensive to maintain. The more parts something has the hard to repair it.
PaleConference406@reddit
They've long had a bit of a reputation for being death traps.
Excellent_Speech_901@reddit
See the "Hunting Eagle Strike" gyrocopter of the PLAN. Production started in 2014 and they were shown off in the 2019 military parade but actual production numbers seem hard to come by.
ArachAislin@reddit
Easy to handle, bitch to maintain
Independent-Reveal86@reddit
My guess is that they just aren't that useful for carrying a useful load from A to B. Futzing around the local area isn't all that interesting after a while, ultimately you want an aircraft to go places.
Doufnuget@reddit
All you need to carry is a couple venomous snakes.
codename5281@reddit
European ultralight aircraft pilot here. I'd say because despite being aircrafts in the ultralight category that are amongst the ones to have good defense against turbulence (thanks to the rotor), they are freaking expensive, and can be quite hard to maintain (because of the rotor).
Separate-Problem-270@reddit
If there's an accident they're more likely to land on a populated area than commercial aircraft.
You'd need a landing pad for everyone and that takes up space .
Also people are morons when driving on the ground where there's lanes and traffic dividers . Now imagine those same morons having the ability to make their own 9/11 happen on a whim like it's road rage.
Independent-Reveal86@reddit
None of that explains why they aren't more popular.
Separate-Problem-270@reddit
You're right, sorry.
hgwelz@reddit (OP)
Autogyros aren't unregulated and need a pilot's license. In payload, range, speed the one pictured is comaprable to a Cessna 150.
Separate-Problem-270@reddit
Yea but people have this idea that they'll be using one as a taxi , parking wherever ...when I reality they won't.
We already have airports , helipads and helicopters.
Dry_Ad8198@reddit
What?
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
They’re fairly limited in capability for most missions. There just aren’t many scenarios where either an airplane or a helicopter would make more sense.
They’re a lot more efficient than a helicopter so there has been some adoption to replace helicopters in roles where you don’t need the full capabilities of a helicopter. An example would be some police missions where low speed loiter times are needed.
But those are niche missions requiring relatively few aircraft, so we end up with gyros themselves being fairly niche.
Fit_Armadillo_9928@reddit
People tend to prefer not to just roll the dice to find out if they live or die on any given day I find