International couple (Russian + Turkish) in Germany 5+ years, want to move somewhere we finally feel at home

Posted by No_Version8826@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 171 comments

TL;DR: International couple (Russian + Turkish) in Munich, never felt welcome despite 5+ years and fluent German. London trip showed us what belonging could feel like. Planning to have children soon and want to move once, permanently. Looking for honest advice, especially from people who've actually made similar moves.

We are an international couple living in Munich, Germany for the past 5+ years. I'm originally from Russia, my husband from Turkey, we met here and built our life here. We both work in tech, English is the language of our relationship. I have German citizenship, my husband is in the process of getting it.

We just came back from a trip to London and honestly it was groundbreaking, we felt completely normal there for the first time in a long time. Neither of us has particularly enjoyed German culture over time. The unfriendliness, the inability to build social circles, and the underlying attitude of "we are better than you" has really been dragging on us. I already spoke C1 German when I arrived, and even that hasn't helped. On top of that, the rising AfD climate has been making us increasingly anxious. We have never quite felt like we belong here.

There is also the earning potential issue: the salary caps in Germany are not a joke. Despite being in mid-senior tech roles with serious academic backgrounds, we earn just a little more than people without degrees. We could push it slightly higher but not much, there is a ceiling in our roles in this country that we keep hitting.

We want to move once more, hopefully permanently this time. We are at a stage in life where we are planning children soon and we do not want to keep changing countries. Here is what matters to us:

Multiculturality
Ease of making friends and feeling like we belong, not like guests forever
Strong tech job market with real earning potential
Good savings relative to cost of living
Walkable city, good urban lifestyle
English as the primary language (or at least dominant in daily and professional life)
Long term: path to citizenship, stability, raising kids

We are currently also considering Zurich, Switzerland, the salaries are significantly higher than Munich and it feels more international than where we are now. We think we might finally be able to afford our own home there. But we are aware it probably won't solve the belonging problem.

It really feels hard. We don't feel like we have a lot of time to figure this out before we start our family. Any advice, tips, or personal experience is genuinely appreciated.

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k3iba@reddit

Have you ever been in the Netherlands, particularly Amsterdam?

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

Housing $$$$ plus need local language skills

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Scar_Frank@reddit

But that would be the same issue in London

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

No, we're yet to visit this city. Would you recommend it?

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k3iba@reddit

It's very multicultural and also an expat community. Perhaps you"ll like it. There are also a lot of Turkish people.

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Uncle_Richard98@reddit

The question is how will you move to London legally? Do you have a company sponsorship your visa and your partner? The UK is not part of the EU anymore, you can’t just move there and live with no restrictions and no visa.

The only EU country passport that allows to live in London without requiring visa is Ireland (they have a special treat with them), German passport and none of the other EU countries unfortunately is part of this.

The alternative is moving to Ireland since it’s part of the EU and live in Dublin that has a similar vibe to the multiculturalism of London and people are incredibly friendly (it’s the total opposite of Germany) and wait 5 years, apply to get the Irish passport and then move to London.

But Ireland (specially Dublin) has its own challenges. People there are much more friendly and open than Germans but Dublin is much more expensive than any city in Germany (even Munich), the rents are absolutely insane (it’s cheaper to buy a house than to rent), public transportation is very bad compared to Germany, public healthcare system is not very good as well, and the weather is slightly worse than Germany (at least Germany has hot summers for 3 months, summer in Ireland last 1 month).

Decide what you want to do.

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

We are open to the Skilled Worker visa path and hopeful we could get UK employer offers if we choose the UK route. Our hesitations are more about London itself - I've heard about struggling healthcare, and high cost of living compared to salaries, even in high-paying roles. The culture of private clubs and old-money aristocracy doesn't particularly appeal to us either.

We wonder how strong the anti-immigration sentiment actually is outside of the tourist bubble in London, afaik Brexit was partly driven by exactly that, and we are trying to escape that feeling. Do you have a sense of how that plays out in daily life for an expat couple actually living in UK?

Thank you for the detailed response, this is really helpful.

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CyclingCapital@reddit

Reform (British AfD essentially) is currently leading the polls. London isn’t the UK and the UK isn’t London but escaping AfD to stumble upon Reform doesn’t seem too smart.

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jamjar188@reddit

Reform are just a Thatcherite party that wants to restrict mass immigration. There is nothing that radical about them.

I know lots of people who are fed up with the mainstream and thinking of voting Reform, they are not anti-immigrant. They just want to see economic growth and sensible policies.

Incidentally it is the Labour government that has been talking toughest on immigration lately. This is actually becoming a cross-party issue and it's wrong to characterise the rise of new parties in the UK as some terrible trend, or indicative of a moral failing in British people.

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jamjar188@reddit

Lots of Brexit voters were themselves of immigrant background. Brexit was a f***-you to the ruling class, it wasn't just about immigration.

Also, many British people want to see a reduction in mass immigration but this doesn't make them anti-immigrant. It's such an important distinction that people really misunderstand.

It's a very fair society overall with all kinds of people living there and working side by side.

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Educational_Aerie129@reddit

What I've heard is that the smaller towns surrounding london, about an hour away by train, are much more promising. There are remote job opportunities, housing is more affordable and commuting to london once or twice a week is definitely sustainable. It also provides a less stressful and safer environment for children.

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jamjar188@reddit

"the culture of private clubs and old-money aristocracy" -- as someone who's been in London for almost two decades this just isn't something most people cross paths with. I can't name a single industry where having an insider connection to old boys' networks would be the deciding factor in whether you are given opportunities or not -- and I know people who have worked at major newspapers, corporate law firms, management consultancies, banks, NGOs, advocacy groups, etc.

You say you work in tech and that is probably one of the industries that is least known for its connections to old money. I know people who work in software engineering and it seems very much merit-based.

Cost of living in relation to average salaries is probably the biggest concern for anyone looking to live in London. It's just the reality, mostly driven by sky-high rents. Travel is also very expensive but many jobs now are hybrid so commuting isn't necessary more than once or twice a week (sometime less).

And it's not all bad: groceries are surprisingly affordable. There is tons of arts & culture, a lot of it free or low-cost.

Your instincts about the city being one where people of any background can fit in is also spot on. I grew up in between two countries, never quite felt at home in either, and London just clicked for me. There's so many people from everywhere, many workplaces are extremely international, and you qre not judged for speaking English as a foreign language, having an accent, having a different name, etc. All my workplaces have been extremely diverse across the board: religion, nationality, ethnic background, sexual orientation, etc.

Healthcare is the main area where you will hear scare stories. It's a system full of contradictions. Excellent for certain things -- like early detection of certain cancers and certain treatments. Great for people with known chronic conditions, as they get regular checks-ups and affordable meds. A&E is known for long waits but once your problem is identified you will get treated.

What the system struggles with is what I call "in between" problems. Maybe you have an issue that isn't debilitating but causes mild pain or discomfort -- it may be difficult to get a timely appointment, and you will have to lobby the GP to refer you to a specialist, which could take a long time. That's the type of bottleneck people encounter. Sometimes foreigners end up flying back to their home countries and paying for a private consultation just to expedite things (we've all done it).

Still. If you can manage some of the downsides, I feel like in many ways London is unparalleled. I really do love it as a city.

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mlc2175@reddit

You’d generally have private insurance with a tech company which would mitigate most health care issues.

Anywhere worth living in London is not going to be Reform / Brexit areas nor old money aristocracy nonsense

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brokerlady@reddit

I lived in London for 7 years and in 2016 two months before the vote I distinctly remember sitting in chiltern firehouse one afternoon and a group of 4 English people behind me aged between 30-35 discussing brexit voting and how they’d be all for it due to immigration except for the hit to the economy. i had friends who had been there 10 years in banking and no one had English friends.

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emgeehammer@reddit

They work in tech. The TechNation visa route is excellent. They can both apply and, as long as one is accepted, they can both work.

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el_duckerino@reddit

Just whatever you do, don’t move to Sweden or any Scandinavian country. As Russian you will never be welcome there.

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sneijder@reddit

…Or the UK. OP visited a tourist bubble in London, itself a bubble in the UK

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

Which country/city would you recommend instead?

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jamjar188@reddit

Plenty of Russians in London, don't listen to the other person

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Icy_Place_5785@reddit

Countries that welcome Russians?

Belarus, India, Mali, Burkina Faso

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

Or UAE, but no immigration pathways there for them either.

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jamjar188@reddit

This is bullshit

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Suspicious_Lab505@reddit

London isn't that much of a bubble. Most of central London is also an area full of working people. It's not like some cities where entire streets are dedicated to tourists (e.g. Prague) and the locals all use side streets.

It sounds like they're wealthy so they won't need to rent in a commuter town.

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military_press@reddit

There is also the earning potential issue: the salary caps in Germany are not a joke. Despite being in mid-senior tech roles with serious academic backgrounds, we earn just a little more than people without degrees. We could push it slightly higher but not much, there is a ceiling in our roles in this country that we keep hitting.

Sorry that this is off-topic, but can you please elaborate on this?

I, too, am from a non-EU country and work in tech (software engineer), interested in pursuing my career in Munich

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

Germany has a social market economy which makes it genuinely great for blue-collar workers and average earners — strong safety net, good childcare, security. But if you want to grow in your career, our experience has been that it works against you on two fronts: the tax system eats a disproportionate share of every raise you get, and the corporate culture here generally doesn't actively invest in developing senior talent. You can work hard and move up, but the financial reward for doing so is surprisingly flat.

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jamjar188@reddit

Financial reward is becoming flatter and flatter in London but not as bad as Germany, I don't think.

Ask for advice on r/HENRYuk

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military_press@reddit

OK, I see the point.

However, Germany offers high-quality public education at a very low cost. Tuition at public universities was free, IIRC. From what I've heard, the public healthcare system is also quite good. On top of that, Germans benefit from generous unemployment benefits and long paid sick leave.

I can imagine that Germany doesn't provide as much financial incentive to work harder and earn more. At the same time, you may not need a particularly high income to enjoy a decent quality of life there. Am I wrong?

(For context, I live in the Czech Republic and work as a software engineer. Here, the salary-to-expense ratio is much less favorable than in Germany. Sick leave is not fully paid and is shorter, and public education is not generally regarded as being on the same level as Germany's. TBH, if I were single and received a good job offer, I'd be quite happy to move to a city like Munich.)

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

What you said about education is fully correct, and the work-life balance here is genuinely unmatched, that part has been true in our experience too. So if those are your priorities, you‘d likely enjoy it.

For us though, the issue isn’t affording a decent life, we can do that. It’s that our savings rate feels significantly lower than what we could achieve somewhere that better rewards working harder and performing well.

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military_press@reddit

It’s that our savings rate feels significantly lower than what we could achieve somewhere that better rewards working harder and performing well.

If (1) increasing your savings rate and (2) keeping motivated to work harder and perform well are your top priorities, perhaps Germany isn't the best country.

At the same time, you're planning to have children soon, right? If I were in your shoes, I'd accept the high tax for decent public education and parental support in a country like Germany. You also cited several things that matter to you and your SO, such as multiculturality, walkability, a strong tech scene, etc. I feel that Munich already offers several (if not all) of them. I can't come up with any city/country where all the criteria are met.

Anyway, it's your life. I wish you good luck!

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

Something always has to give though. The US has the highest earning potential, but I always warn people you don’t want to fall sick here or be unemployed, because you can find yourself homeless in the blink of an eye, even as a high earner.

Honestly if I were in your shoes I would stay in Germany (assuming NL wouldn’t be an option), move to a different city or town such as Berlin perhaps. Excellent QoL & WLB, free education for your kids, affordable healthcare, tons of benefits for parents such as very generous mat/pat leave, free or affordable childcare and a very good social security net.

Especially coming from countries like Russia and Turkey, these are huge pluses, should be appreciated and cannot easily be found elsewhere in the world. And I know from experience it can take well over 5 years to be considered “one of them” as an immigrant so maybe just give it some more time. Or else move back to Turkey so at least one of you feels truly at home.

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thomasthai@reddit

You need to leave europe if u want to get away from that.

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temp_gerc1@reddit

They probably mean that even if you earn more by working hard, the net income doesn't change much because the redistribution to fund pensioners and social benefits for everyone else starts raping you.

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Suspicious_Lab505@reddit

And salaries are limited to around around 50k because the general public thinks that salary is 'wealthy'.

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military_press@reddit

salaries are limited to around around 50k

Really?

OP lives in Munich. By Googling "average salary for software engineer in Munich", I got this:

"The average salary for a software engineer in Munich ranges from €65,000 to €85,000 annually, depending on experience, with an overall median of about €71,000 to €75,000"

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axpendix@reddit

Turkey is also a good option as your husband is Turkish.

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alphabetstring@reddit

OP, I am in Turkey and trying with all I have to leave here, please don't.
There is a social corruption, let alone the political one. People feel so small and angry that while walking down the streets you hear people arguing because they shouldered each other, looked weird etc. It is absolutely insane, it has never been like this, everyone feels so hostile.
There is an increasing usage of drugs by minors, school shootings started as a new form of violence, people don't have enough time and energy to to take care of their families.
I know many people trying to leave here just to be able to start a family healthily.

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axpendix@reddit

I understand your concern but Turkey is a huge country with a lot of variance across its neighborhoods and living styles. If you have strong income and financials then you can live a great life.

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alphabetstring@reddit

Are you living in Turkey currently?

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

Yes, the best option really in their case!

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Forward-Rub-8187@reddit

US or Australia, I would avoid CH in your case.

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jgjl@reddit

Still now sure how anyone would ever feel at home in the US.

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jamjar188@reddit

Bullshit

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Forward-Rub-8187@reddit

Thats because you dont know how is it to be a foreigner in germany

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jgjl@reddit

And do you know how it is to be a foreigner from a industrialized country in the US?

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Forward-Rub-8187@reddit

Yes and I can attest that it is the only country where immigrants from all over the world immediately mix with the natives and become assimilated within a few years into us culture. It is the bestest country in the world!

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jgjl@reddit

lol, can’t tell if you are serious or not

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soccamaniac147@reddit

I feel like Australia would be a good fit for you.

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jamjar188@reddit

Far from everywhere

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

I was thinking Perth for them.

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Beneficial_Mix_6205@reddit

Move to the USA. Unless you move to the south, no one cares what country you’re from.

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jamjar188@reddit

This is true..but when you're used to a European lifestyle the US can really be a culture shock

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Wrong-Condition-9115@reddit

I heard both Russia and Turkey are very prosperous countries that are very welcoming and very good for young tech entrepreneurs. They would LOVE you there!

Oh wait...

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jamjar188@reddit

Loser

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

Why are you so mean?

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Independent_Pitch598@reddit

Have tried more international cities?

Berlin is usually much better than any other city in DE.

Or try Barcelona/Lisbon/Amsterdam

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Educational_Aerie129@reddit

Berlin? Omg no.

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Independent_Pitch598@reddit

Why?

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toomany_questions@reddit

I’d suggest against Lisbon if looking for high income. Don’t know about the others except that Barcelona, similarly to Lisbon has a huge issue with locals getting priced out by foreigners and while on the whole there is a warmth and friendliness in both countries (have been to both as a foreigner, and lived in Portugal for a while as a student - truly a beautiful and place and my fave people on the planet so no shade meant) I think they will find a similar issue with unfriendliness just because of housing issues honestly. Also the Afd is equivalent to chega (Portugal) and probably Vox, but I know less of Vox (Spain)

But Amsterdam and Berlin I know nothing about. But I think you’re 100% right about more international cities. That would be besy

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jamjar188@reddit

Vox has no issue with immigrants who come legally or with professional jobs. They are most focused on illegal immigration and on addressing the emergence of immigrant enclaves where there is little integration. Some of their rhetoric can be macho and nationalistic but their policies are not actually that radical.

Also Vox are very unpopular in Barcelona and have limited appeal in places like Madrid. Madrid is run by the centre-right PP and the regional president Isabel Ayuso has been widely commended for being pro-immigration, pro-business and keeping taxes low.

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komradebae@reddit

lol, all of these right wing parties claim to “only focus on illegal immigration”. But obviously, there’s no way to “look” legal, so if you’re walking around speaking another language or, idk, being visibly brown, you’re gonna be harassed anyway.

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jamjar188@reddit

You're really just projecting here.

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komradebae@reddit

You really can’t be that naive, right? Even if the far right doesn’t have control over any government body at the moment, working just outside the system to move the Overton window is how they normalize their beliefs so that they’re eventually able to infiltrate said system. And they’ll always keep a few token minorities around until they’re inconvenient/not needed anymore.

Anyway, what do I know? I’m just a brown expat who’s felt a shift in how I’ve been treated since these parties have gotten more public visibility. I’m sure it’s fine though. Nothing to worry about.

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jamjar188@reddit

I don't know where you are so I can only speak based on what I see.

And also, you are blaming the actions of individuals on specific parties which seems like projection.

How do you know the individuals who mistreated you were specifically influenced by those parties? What these parties say does not match the behaviour you are alluding to.

I am not naive... I see far right/racist discourse on X pretty frequently. And it is not aligned with these parties. It specifically criticises these parties for being mainstream and "soft" and playing by the rules.

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jamjar188@reddit

I would add Madrid to that list. It's come up leaps and bounds as an international city in the past 10 years.

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Independent_Pitch598@reddit

Isn’t Madrid like Paris? If you don’t know language - don’t even try?

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jamjar188@reddit

No, it's changed a fair bit in the last 5 years especially. Lots of expats with limited English now live there and a lot of the young people and immigrants who work service jobs speak a bit of English.

Of course, it helps immensely if you can learn Spanish to a decent level for dealing with bureaucracy and making small talk with neighbours and friends. Although you'd also be surprised how many ordinary people (Gen X and younger) will be happy to have conversations in English.

My parents live in a suburb of Madrid that is popular with families, professionals and expats. My partner is English and we've made friends with several neighbours and about half of them speak decent enough English that they can have chats with my partner.

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Independent_Pitch598@reddit

It is totally different in comparison to Lisbon where everyone speak English, most tech jobs will be with English only, all banks and most insurance has English apps and English support lines.

From my point of view even Barcelona is not so English city as Lisbon but Madrid is very far from Barcelona.

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jamjar188@reddit

It's not "totally different". Expats tend to imhabit English-speaking workplaces in Madrid.

And just because there isn't as much English spoken overall as in a place like Lisbon doesn't make it "totally different". You're also acting like you never encounter an interaction in Lisbon where the other person doesn't speak English well enough, which I seriously question.

Many international companies have been setting up some of their operations in Madrid in recent years. Revolut is probably the best known example.

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MintInsel@reddit

Zurich is just a more expensive Munich.

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dallyan@reddit

Yeah. Everything you dislike about social life is the same in Switzerland if not worse. London sounds like a good match if you can get work visas.

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Octoberof2022@reddit

Really? I heard the international job market is booming and life - including social life - is amazing?

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Additional_Text_3962@reddit

Wait, is that so? In which fields are the job market going?

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Octoberof2022@reddit

My former boss works for a mechanical engineerin company, he said most companies are international with with many opportunities and was happy with what Zurich offers social vise too..

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MintInsel@reddit

Munich is not bad as well, job market is booming, and social life is also amazing. OP didn’t like it.

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CyclingCapital@reddit

I think Amsterdam could work for you. Dutchies aren’t the most outwardly friendly but at least there are lots of other internationals and lots of companies are English-first. If you already speak German, Dutch will be easy too.

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Big_Self_1522@reddit

Only the housing market is shit, salaries have ceilings as well, taxes are ridiculously high and same goes for insurances.

My experience with German-Dutch is that it actually makes it harder to learn. Due to similarities people constantly use the wrong pronunciation. Then German is a very structured language, while Dutch is more “it’s just the way it is” kind of thing. Very intuitive, which clashes with both Russian and German (idk about Turkish)

A big chunk of people here are very angry with immigrants for bullshit reasons, so I wouldn’t say that this country is that welcoming. Maybe if you live in a bubble and ignore all the news, protests etc.

What I heard from my international friends is that a lot of companies still require Dutch, will choose a Dutch speaking candidate over you and you will most likely feel left out in your team. A field can have English as the dominant language, but there still will be a lot of Dutch. You have to be a really niche specialist for a company to let the lack of Dutch slide.

Like Amsterdam is great if you make a lot of money and stay in a bubble. It’s just that most places are with these conditions

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SDV01@reddit

And plenty of peers too, especially in the central and southern parts of the city. There are many recent Russian and (secular) Turkish immigrant families with children in local schools.

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Sakurazukamori1@reddit

Afford a home in Switzerland???? 😨

In Zurich???? 😱

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Teethless_pirana@reddit

Right? I think OP hasn't really checked how much property is in Switzerland these days.

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librekom@reddit

To be fair, on that aspect, London seems even worse.

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_demonofthefall_@reddit

And the UK doesn't require 20% downpayment. In Switzerland, you need to have 20% of the house value in cash (or pension) and pay everything above bank assessment in cash. So for a 2 million house in Zürich, which is on the low end, you need 400k downpayment plus who knows how much above estimate they're asking for. Also, the fees are insane and there is no concept of a starter home, unlike the UK

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Aleikumselam@reddit

Check prices in Oslo or Copenhagen. They are 3 times higher with salaries 3 to 4 times lower than in Switzerland

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_demonofthefall_@reddit

Lived in Cph for 6 years, that's just not correct. A villa in Frb is 20-30 million dkk, which is 2.5- 3.6 mio chf. But there are plenty of houses in Cph/Amager/Vanløse or Husum, which go for 6-8 mio

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Melodic-Exam-941@reddit

Auch einer der Gründe, warum die Schweiz die höchste Mieterquote in Europa hat.

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holyathanasius@reddit

London is a big city. Zurich is expensive everywhere you look.

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Aleikumselam@reddit

Property in Switzerland is cheaper than in Norway or Danmark

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Aggravating_Rip5098@reddit

Surprised no one mentioning NYC. I love London and wish I could live there but salary vs expenses so high. Currently in Hong Kong which I think you’d like, but not exactly a tech hub. But if you’re very specialized, that could work to your advantage.

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sebadc@reddit

Lol. Going to Zürich because München is unwelcoming 🤣

I think you would go to London. Never faced what you report, so I can't tell, but it seems that you should leave ASAP if you feel this way in Germany.

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Wrong-Condition-9115@reddit

Maybe it's not Germany but... Them? Maybe? Just a thought...

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sebadc@reddit

It's a mismatch between people's expectations and willingness to adapt and the reality.

Saying that the country is at fault is pretty delusional. It's not as if Germany was running fake advertisements to attract people like OP.

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AnyAdvertising1214@reddit

Mein Papa ist Italiener und der hysterischste Mensch den ich kenne, da ist meine deutsche Boomer Seite zwar grantiger aber definitiv entspannter

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AnyAdvertising1214@reddit

Naja also ich bin Deutscher und liebe die deutsche Mentalität und Deutschland (die im Vergleich zu Italienern oder Amerikanern, die immer als offen gelten, auch ihre Vorzüge hat), aber ich kann es echt nachvollziehen.
Gerade als expat kann es gerade in MÜNCHEN sehr sehr schwierig sein Anschluss zu finden

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palbuddy1234@reddit

I'm in Geneva, though friends in Zurich. Switzerland is pretty much in recession right now and though great for a family, very expensive for s family. The Swiss are famously suspicious of outsiders and want you to speak the language.

I know you're looking at salaries, but look at cost of living too. I wish you the best through, I know some Russians in CERN. Very smart and capable, but always talked down to.

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Seitakadojii@reddit

Switzerland is everything but family or child friendly.

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Saarfall@reddit

Switzerland is Germany on steroids. It's also the place consistently ranked least friendly for newcomers - people tend therefore to stick to their own communities. If you want to escape Germany and Germanic culture, going to Zurich is hilariously bad idea.

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Aleikumselam@reddit

Just go to Switzerland! BEST COUNTRY to live in the World.

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Sakurazukamori1@reddit

Delusional

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icecream1973@reddit

Your list of requirements is la-la-land unrealistic, pick 1 or 2 (or maybe 3) & go from there.

Especially: Ease of making friends and feeling like we belong, not like guests forever....... Have you ever considered expats will never be 100% accepted in any country? Also: you will find the same cultural/social attitide in ALL Germanic, Slavic, Scandinavian countries. Also avoid Belgian, especially Dutch & possibly Luxembourg. South EU countries have a better/warmer social attitide BUT have low salary + shit job market.

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AnyAdvertising1214@reddit

Switzerland is Munich on steroids

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Educational_Aerie129@reddit

lol. Loved the way you describe it.

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AnyAdvertising1214@reddit

Germans are autistic.
Austrians are drunk non autistic Germans
And the Swiss are the Child of a typical arrogant fr*nch and a German on steroids

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Available_Highway22@reddit

I live in London and, while it meets several of your criteria, making friends is definitely not easy for foreigners. You have better chances if you are part of a community (for example, you go to church/mosque) but London can be a very lonely place.

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The-American-Abroad@reddit

Have you considered paris? It will take learning French of course but it’s a pretty multicultural place, doesn’t have a hostile attitude toward Russians etc.

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oofieoofty@reddit

Salaries are lower than Germany and you absolutely need to know French.

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GingerPrince72@reddit

Switzerland will not solve your issues with making friends in any way and the tech market is now horrendous . Great for earning if you get a job (only have a chance with an away passport) but it’s insanely expensive .

Also, there is a vote soon which may destroy the country’s future.

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

Thanks for your perspective. Which vote are you talking about, 10M cap?

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GingerPrince72@reddit

Yep

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cccccjdvidn@reddit

OP, you might as well give up the Zurich dream now. It is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for non-Swiss/EU citizens to find sponsorship for jobs.

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

We have/about to get EU citizenships

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notcounted@reddit

People still do expats?

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SpaceBetweenNL@reddit

Whatever you experience in Germany can be even worse in other EU countries.

I'm Russian, who lives in the Netherlands. Both rent and groceries are more expensive here than in Germany. Here, people pay 600-800 euros for a room, 1000-1500 for a studio in a smaller city, 1500-2000 for a studio in a bigger city. Renting a big apartment on the free market can be 2000+.

With social life, it's the same in the whole Western Europe. It's not gonna be better.

I advise you to stay in Munich.

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Own_Fee2088@reddit

I feel like you’re looking for a place that doesn’t currently exist, something has to go… the world is in the shitter and it will require you both some sort of intelligence to figure out where in the future most of the things you want will actually be attainable

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Nervous-Onion1281@reddit

I agree.

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Specific-Pomelo-6077@reddit

Germany has decent social supports for when you do have children. Have you considered capitalising on the German language you have and knowledge of the culture to become a border worker? Live on a border between Germany one of its friendlier border countries. Commute to Germany to work but live and have community in the friendlier one.

London is nice to visit but the expense means you will not be living in the city.

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Commercial_Ebb_4372@reddit

Germans want to keep the taxes so they can burn more people people im the future whilst their women watch with pride.

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Specific-Pomelo-6077@reddit

Germans aren't women?

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brokerlady@reddit

is it germany or Munich that's the problem; would you be better off in Berlin where it's more international. Someone else said Dublin and I'd agree with that if you're staying in Europe, otherwise maybe you can get sponsored for Singapore or Australia.

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nordzeekueste@reddit

You will always be a foreigner in Singapore and stay in the international circle.

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

And no transparent PR pathways, let alone citizenship.

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GingerPrince72@reddit

TBH you either choose welcoming people or high salaries, the places with the most welcoming people such as Spain re not highly paid.

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Glittering-Cloud1002@reddit

Hear me out… Luxembourg. Or Cyprus. Or maybe Middle East?

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

No immigration pathways in ME countries. And if they don’t like Munich, they certainly won’t enjoy Luxembourg.

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Crop_olite@reddit

Netherlands? My gf is Moldovan, my brothers gf is Turkisch, im from Indonesian decent.

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CoffeeInTheTropics@reddit

They would need to learn Dutch to at least a professional working level though. And competition is fierce in tech, unless OP and spouse have exceptional skills in a niche field it will be hard to land a good role. Plus housing…. $$$$

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YetAnotherGuy2@reddit

You might have a vacation blues.

Neither of you is an EU citizen and one a Russian citizen is going to be tricky - it restricts the options you have.

Overall your description applies best to Amsterdam (solid English speaking, walkable distances, multicultural) economically it night not be the best fit. The savings aspect is similar to Germany and the tech market probably sucks all over in Europe except in nearshoring countries which doesn't really change anything in tend if earning.

You are going to have to choose I think.

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

Please read the post, I have a German citizenship and my husband is about to get it as well.

Thank you for the advice.

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Secret-Size6556@reddit

Move to the Balkans! You will both feel like home. Romania or Bulgaria as there are a lot of Turkish and Slavic influences, are part of the EU and a good IT sector in Sofia, Bucharest or Cluj with affordable everything, walkable and pretty chill. Also very safe to raise children.

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RougeBasic100@reddit

Russians and Turkish people are not welcome socially by Romanians. Outside Romania that’s a different story, but living there can be difficult. And I’ll not even go into details about the medical or education systems.

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mavikat@reddit

US big cities would meet your criteria..San Francisco has a large Russian culture and Seattle Turkish. Both are tech saturated and have some of the best public schools. Obviously super expensive, especially housing, but you'll be earning enough. We're leaving Germany for the same reasons. Best of luck.

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jgjl@reddit

The money in the US is nice, the rest is pretty bad though.

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220volt74@reddit

I was also going to suggest USA big cities. As far as salaries for tech jobs and advancement opportunities no country on earth comes close. I was shocked to learn how low salaries in London are compared to their standard of living. If they already have money and looking to just coast then London by far is the best city.

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Critical_Bluejay_919@reddit

US, Canada, Australia or the UK Germany is a tough nut to crack. Look at the US or Canada too

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Level-Brain-4786@reddit

Having lived in the US and Canada for 30 years I would not do it again personally. AU or NZ - maybe. Certainly not the UK.

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IndependentWrap8853@reddit

Australian wages will not be higher than those in Munich but cost of living definitely will be. And buying your own place is beyond anyone’s budget these days.

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Level-Brain-4786@reddit

Still cheaper than in Canada. And a lot better climate and culture.

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Upset-Ad-622@reddit

London has everything. Multicultural + UK + trendy It is the best to experience all in one city.

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Constant-Desk-5512@reddit

I moved to London recently and me and my partner are both from different ethnic backgrounds. I’m from Greece and she’s south East Asian. London definitely clicked for me when I visited for the first time years ago, and I have come to notice that I never feel judged or unwelcome regarding my ethnic background, multicultural relationship etc. you can easily be yourself here.

Now, the other issues you mentioned are universal immigrant concerns common to all people leaving their home countries. The biggest one is the social aspect. It is not any easier actually ‘fitting in’ any community than it probably is in Germany. Perhaps there are more groups and activities you can pursue here in London than in Munich, but acquiring a new social circle and friends in a new country will always be unbearably difficult for an immigrant regardless where you go. I was still unable to do this and I find most communities and social circles extremely closed and impenetrable, even though they are externally welcoming and excluding nobody(unlike Germany I suppose).

Perhaps I haven’t gotten involved as much as I should have in clubs, communities etc. but it takes consistent effort over an extended period of time to make any progress in that domain.

I cannot speak about the local job market as much, because I’ve been working remotely for a US company even before I moved here (also in tech), but London is a global tech hub with many opportunities, although it’s very competitive. I would first try to secure a job, even if it is remote, before I made the move. London is very expensive and there is no way of finding a job here before you actually have a visa and work permit, so you need to have boots on the ground before you can even start applying.

Regarding the anti immigration issue you mentioned in Germany, I believe there is a very similar sentiment here mostly focused on undocumented and illegal immigration, especially in London. A legal tax paying and working immigrant wouldn’t have anything to worry about. Especially Russian and Turkish people. There are big communities in London for both ethnic groups.

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MushroomOutrageous@reddit

London is great for that, although the right wing is also growing in the UK, unfortunately. But London is different, very expensive though and not sure about the visa situation.

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bigwinboard@reddit

USA, there is no other.

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Usual_Gap5673@reddit

Definitely not London. The same problems here - salary caps, bad quality housing, difficult to build friendship (it will work only if you are a student), drinking/pub culture, stagnated wages (including in tech, including managers roles), bad cost of living (including mid-senior and senior roles). London now is only for finance bros (high level, not even mid), highly rich people. You said youars planning children soon - nursery in London cost almost £2k. Average salary in London is not even close to average quality of life that you imagine.

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s-patrick-jane@reddit

I’m Turkish but lived in Switzerland for a year. Never felt more unwelcome tbh despite speaking French. Locals simply don’t interact much with foreigners. Also Switzerland is incredibly expensive buying a house especially in Zurich will be quite difficult. On top of that, I suggest you research the recent Swiss policies towards immigration.

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lucylucylane@reddit

I would say London a giant city of people from all over the world where you can be yourself

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Jazzlike-Contract-95@reddit

The UK is a good choice if you can find a job with high enough salary. Raising a kid here will be expensive, nursery fees are crazy. Other than that it ticks all your points

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RonJagrider@reddit

Go to Russia.

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kzcvuver@reddit

Are you one of those war mongers? You want them to pay their taxes in Russia to support the war?

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AnyDemand33@reddit

Totally feel you, before you guys run out of energy, get out.

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TreacleOk7265@reddit

You should also look in maternity leave and affordable child care if you plan to have kids. I heard both ate really bad in Switzerland, so that a lone could eat up some of the higher income (google just said 3000 CHF for below 2 years wow)

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Teethless_pirana@reddit

"Afford our own home there"?????? Buying property in Switzerland is really damn expensive. Many swiss people can't even afford to own property unless you inherit it.

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blumonste@reddit

US or Canada.

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filling__space@reddit

Turkish origin married to a German, living in Germany for 4 years. Previously lived in Canada, US, UK, and Asia.

Your best bet is Asia to feel welcome, not one of the country but as welcome as who you are as an expat.

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caminantedecalles@reddit

There is no urheimat for multicultural IT migrants. What you're looking is kind of a bubble for young migrant professionals. It doesn't really go hand in hand with that settled life everyone else is living.

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trgfhrmpf@reddit

New York

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JebacBiede2137@reddit

I live in London - I just want to say that the Skilled Worker visa is much much harder that you think.

Also, I love London, it's really cool. But if you can't make at least £120k combined in London - forget about kids. And I dont think salaries in London are much higher than Munich

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papanko_hapanko@reddit

From my experience that „we are better than you” attitude is much worse in Zurich than Munich

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Nijal59@reddit

Maybe Paris, France. Big and multicultural like London. Relatively affordable if you work in tech. No visa problem to settle down and work as it is in the EU and Schengen union. Huge tech scene. You might find an English speaking job. But you would absolutely need to learn French, especially if you seek citizenship.

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Hugogol@reddit

Why don’t you try Turkey if you want someplace that feels like home for one of you? Is it reasonable to expect to feel at home as expats after a mere five years in a foreign country? Stick it out another twenty and you’ll have earned the right to consider it home.

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Top-Half7224@reddit

London is an amazing city culturally, but very expensive and with a competitive job market. Maybe consider some of the more medium sized cities which also have a lot to offer but might be an easier job market and lower COL until you establish yourself.

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sneijder@reddit

As a Russian, outside the tourist bubble OP was in that’s a mental suggestion.

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temp_gerc1@reddit

Switzerland is supposedly just as bad, if not worse, for making friends and feeling like you belong. London/UK might be your best option but the job market everywhere is absolutely terrible right now.

Just curious - how did you guys first meet? Most Russian people I know stay with their own folks (speaking Russian obv) and the same goes for Turks.

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No_Version8826@reddit (OP)

Thank you for your advice. We definitely plan to get a German citizenship for my husband first. We met at work, it was an international startup 😄

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oneirist@reddit

We are non-Germans living in Munich and I found that having kids here actually got us an in into some social circles (via Kita / Kindergarten) in a way that’s maybe close to impossible otherwise. That doesn’t help with the salaries or cost of housing obviously but for that one factor kids really helped us meet people and solidify friendships.

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