There's a great book, called Engines of Destiny, about Scotty going back in time to save Kirk from the Nexus, which inadvertently causes the timeline to change such that the Borg stopped first contact and assimilated Earth in 2063.
And it was all because Kirk not dying meant Picard and the Enterprise E were unable to follow the Borg back in time here.
Hands down the funniest thing about Trek is how trivial time travel is. You could annihilate entire civilizations about as easily as jumping to warp. Yet this is practically handwaved away
My headcanon for this is that the Enterprise under Kirk accidentally discovered this is possible, one experimental flight was then made using it and then the project was highly classified. Kirk and crew of course knowing how it was done was able to replicate it with the Klingon ship, but outside of them basically nobody knows this is possible.
This is actually partially supported in Star Trek Online. One of the missions you can undertake has your character doing a slingshot to go back in time, and your contact at Section 31 explains that only certain star systems are set up properly to do it, and they are all heavily redacted / classified by Starfleet Intelligence / Section 31.
Also paradox fun right? Borg go into the past and assimilate Earth. Therefore no Federation in the future to prompt the Borg ever to invade, no battle above Earth, no sphere to travel back to the past and assimilate Earth.
Then if that's the case, then changes made to the past will never catch up to you in your 'present'.
It would essentially be the same as creating alternate timelines, except there would be a limit to how far back you could go into the past and still have it be your past.
E.g., if I sent something back in time from today in 2026 and changed something in 1986 that altered history, and then I waited until 2028 and traveled back to 1988, it would be the 1988 of the altered timeline. But if I only traveled back as far as 1998, it would still be the 1998 of my original past.
when Kirk and crew saw McCoy jump back through the Guardian over 300 years to 1930s Earth, their communicators immediately showed that the Enterprise was gone, which was due to the Federation and Starfleet not existing because McCoy changed history.
the new past's effect on the present was immediate, and i don't think it makes sense that if they went back a few years from their no-Starfleet present they'd find a yes-Starfleet recent past, as this seems to be suggesting.
i dont think we have the same temporal mechanics in mind, and i dont understand your post enough to discuss the point. im also very tired so ill read it again in the morning, hopefully ill be awake enough to discuss further.
but basically, i meant that changes to the past affect the future. so if i go back to 1935, kill hitler, then forward to now, the changes will have affected the future at a rate of 1 second per second, im just bypassing the wait by taking myself out of the timestream for 90 years and arriving to now. they dont affect me at 1 second per second, but the world i left behind? yes.
i thought this was how trek time travel works. if youre trying to shoehorn marvel endgame time travel into trek, then youve gone above my paygrade, and if not maybe further beyond than that. .
So we've seen it work the way you're describing it - you go to the past, change something, go back to the present, the present is now different.
But I don't think we've seen it from the perspective of someone not going to the past. E.g., you go back to the past, change something, I stay behind in the present - does history change for me instantaneously? Obviously not, since we have the example in the original post here. So is there some delay, where the changes haven't "caught up" to me yet to alter my present (like Back to the Future)? Or does it never catch up (like in the example where changes move forward at 1 second per second, time traveling forward may put you into a changed future, but an observer left behind may just remain in a present that never gets hit by those changes)?
My point isn't to try to claim that I know how it should work - my point is just that people tend to criticize time travel plot holes when the story doesn't even specify how time travel works exactly. There are a lot of different ways it /could/ work, and unless the story lays it out exactly, then making up your own head canon for how it works and then claiming the story has a plot hole because it didn't work that way, is just silly.
Or does it never catch up (like in the example where changes move forward at 1 second per second, time traveling forward may put you into a changed future, but an observer left behind may just remain in a present that never gets hit by those changes)?
this is the part where i beleive finally understand what youre trying to say. youre absolutely right that the story never explains it, but if we look at 29th century technology claiming to scan time as easily as space, id say its a hybrid. like the observer left behind would never experience the changes because the changes would propagate in a separate branch timeline, and that timeline would be altered at a rate of 1second per second. . but the time scanners in the 29th century would pick up the resulting temporal anomaly and decide if they want to respond or not.
Charles Stross has a great duology (Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise) about the fact that time travel and FTL travel are closely linked. Causality Violation Devices are the settings equivalent to nuclear weapon (technically not that difficult to create but heavily policed and enforced).
Problem is they would have no idea how far back in time they would beed to travel, thats assuming they even make it to the sun in a system full of Borg.
Yes and the person above posed the question what would happen if the Borg closed the vortex, the temporal wake would also dissipate and goodbye Enterprise E
Rather than going back in time 300 years to assimilate Earth, they could just go back in time in the Delta quadrant and join with Borg from that time. I guess tech development loops only work if you’re Janeway.
Borg Queen: "Yes, follow me Locutus. I want you to watch as I destroy your precious future..."
Four of Seven: "Don't worry, Your Majesty, I closed the portal!"
Queen: "...what?"
Four: "I noticed a Starfleet vessel at the entrance to the portal. So I closed it before they could follow us through."
Queen: *grabs Four by the shoulders and shakes him* "YOU IDIOT! THAT WAS LOCUTUS' SHIP! HE WAS SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW US! THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS PLAN WAS TO GET REVENGE ON HIM FOR DUMPING ME!"
*Queen throws Four aside.*
Queen: "...Alright everyone, back to the Delta Quadrant. We'll try again in 300 years."
PiLamdOd@reddit
There's a great book, called Engines of Destiny, about Scotty going back in time to save Kirk from the Nexus, which inadvertently causes the timeline to change such that the Borg stopped first contact and assimilated Earth in 2063.
And it was all because Kirk not dying meant Picard and the Enterprise E were unable to follow the Borg back in time here.
mattihase@reddit
Gotta love convoluted time travel death requirement plots
bbbourb@reddit
Well... reverse the...polarity...or some shit..
Goddammit, fuck you Janeway...how you got a promotion after that but I didn't I will never understand.
Darmok47@reddit
Apparently you just have to slingshot around the sun. Piece of cake.
The_Demolition_Man@reddit
Hands down the funniest thing about Trek is how trivial time travel is. You could annihilate entire civilizations about as easily as jumping to warp. Yet this is practically handwaved away
WeddingPKM@reddit
My headcanon for this is that the Enterprise under Kirk accidentally discovered this is possible, one experimental flight was then made using it and then the project was highly classified. Kirk and crew of course knowing how it was done was able to replicate it with the Klingon ship, but outside of them basically nobody knows this is possible.
Mystikal1984@reddit
This is actually partially supported in Star Trek Online. One of the missions you can undertake has your character doing a slingshot to go back in time, and your contact at Section 31 explains that only certain star systems are set up properly to do it, and they are all heavily redacted / classified by Starfleet Intelligence / Section 31.
Moriaedemori@reddit
The greatest irony is that none of it matters.
Borg travel to the past, the past has always been Borg
Federation travels to the past, past has always been Federation.
But I guess that doesn't make for good viewing
Pa_Ja_Ba@reddit
Also paradox fun right? Borg go into the past and assimilate Earth. Therefore no Federation in the future to prompt the Borg ever to invade, no battle above Earth, no sphere to travel back to the past and assimilate Earth.
actually3racoons@reddit
Guinan will go find picard and strongarm Q into undoing it.
Moriaedemori@reddit
Ahh yes, the Ouroboros reality
cweaver@reddit
How do you know how time travel works?
What if there's some set 'speed' at which changes in the past can propagate to the future?
PromisesNone@reddit
there is, the speed is 1 second per second.
cweaver@reddit
Then if that's the case, then changes made to the past will never catch up to you in your 'present'.
It would essentially be the same as creating alternate timelines, except there would be a limit to how far back you could go into the past and still have it be your past.
E.g., if I sent something back in time from today in 2026 and changed something in 1986 that altered history, and then I waited until 2028 and traveled back to 1988, it would be the 1988 of the altered timeline. But if I only traveled back as far as 1998, it would still be the 1998 of my original past.
ticonderoge@reddit
when Kirk and crew saw McCoy jump back through the Guardian over 300 years to 1930s Earth, their communicators immediately showed that the Enterprise was gone, which was due to the Federation and Starfleet not existing because McCoy changed history.
the new past's effect on the present was immediate, and i don't think it makes sense that if they went back a few years from their no-Starfleet present they'd find a yes-Starfleet recent past, as this seems to be suggesting.
PromisesNone@reddit
i dont think we have the same temporal mechanics in mind, and i dont understand your post enough to discuss the point. im also very tired so ill read it again in the morning, hopefully ill be awake enough to discuss further.
but basically, i meant that changes to the past affect the future. so if i go back to 1935, kill hitler, then forward to now, the changes will have affected the future at a rate of 1 second per second, im just bypassing the wait by taking myself out of the timestream for 90 years and arriving to now. they dont affect me at 1 second per second, but the world i left behind? yes.
i thought this was how trek time travel works. if youre trying to shoehorn marvel endgame time travel into trek, then youve gone above my paygrade, and if not maybe further beyond than that. .
cweaver@reddit
So we've seen it work the way you're describing it - you go to the past, change something, go back to the present, the present is now different.
But I don't think we've seen it from the perspective of someone not going to the past. E.g., you go back to the past, change something, I stay behind in the present - does history change for me instantaneously? Obviously not, since we have the example in the original post here. So is there some delay, where the changes haven't "caught up" to me yet to alter my present (like Back to the Future)? Or does it never catch up (like in the example where changes move forward at 1 second per second, time traveling forward may put you into a changed future, but an observer left behind may just remain in a present that never gets hit by those changes)?
My point isn't to try to claim that I know how it should work - my point is just that people tend to criticize time travel plot holes when the story doesn't even specify how time travel works exactly. There are a lot of different ways it /could/ work, and unless the story lays it out exactly, then making up your own head canon for how it works and then claiming the story has a plot hole because it didn't work that way, is just silly.
PromisesNone@reddit
this is the part where i beleive finally understand what youre trying to say. youre absolutely right that the story never explains it, but if we look at 29th century technology claiming to scan time as easily as space, id say its a hybrid. like the observer left behind would never experience the changes because the changes would propagate in a separate branch timeline, and that timeline would be altered at a rate of 1second per second. . but the time scanners in the 29th century would pick up the resulting temporal anomaly and decide if they want to respond or not.
Moriaedemori@reddit
Time-travel, good Sir.
If you can travel anywhere along the timeline, the passage of time loses all meaning.
UlteriorCulture@reddit
Charles Stross has a great duology (Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise) about the fact that time travel and FTL travel are closely linked. Causality Violation Devices are the settings equivalent to nuclear weapon (technically not that difficult to create but heavily policed and enforced).
BrgQun@reddit
The time cops will get to you, unless you're Janeway
LionDoggirl@reddit
Sounds like a lot of work. I'm just gonna cold start the warp drive.
spacetr0n@reddit
Spock just makes shit look easy.
OneStrangerintheAlps@reddit
https://i.redd.it/zgw8sndylb4h1.gif
afriendincanada@reddit
Most insane character arc ever. Started out completely normal, became entirely unhinged over a dozen episodes.
prjktphoto@reddit
Arrow?
afriendincanada@reddit
Justified
Choice_Chocolate5866@reddit
Well, that explains Damien Dark
sharpied79@reddit
Well ignoring they would be erased from history, let's assume they don't immediately...
Set course for Sol and start calculations for light speed breakaway factor (slingshot effect)
Deraj2004@reddit
Problem is they would have no idea how far back in time they would beed to travel, thats assuming they even make it to the sun in a system full of Borg.
sicarius254@reddit
They don’t get erased because they were in the backwash of the sphere which protects them from the timeline changes
sharpied79@reddit
Yes and the person above posed the question what would happen if the Borg closed the vortex, the temporal wake would also dissipate and goodbye Enterprise E
shakebakelizard@reddit
Yes, survivorship bias. This happens only because they don't get erased due to being pulled in behind the sphere.
Inspiredwriter26@reddit
They had plot temporal shielding.
wildskipper@reddit
I honestly hate all time travel in Trek. It's just become a lazy narrative device.
ratherbclever@reddit
Two hours later they just make their own vortex anyway, with no help from the Borg.
UpAndAdam7414@reddit
Rather than going back in time 300 years to assimilate Earth, they could just go back in time in the Delta quadrant and join with Borg from that time. I guess tech development loops only work if you’re Janeway.
imahugemoron@reddit
If they closed the vortex they would immediately cease to exist
JugOfVoodoo@reddit
Borg Queen: "Yes, follow me Locutus. I want you to watch as I destroy your precious future..."
Four of Seven: "Don't worry, Your Majesty, I closed the portal!"
Queen: "...what?"
Four: "I noticed a Starfleet vessel at the entrance to the portal. So I closed it before they could follow us through."
Queen: *grabs Four by the shoulders and shakes him* "YOU IDIOT! THAT WAS LOCUTUS' SHIP! HE WAS SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW US! THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS PLAN WAS TO GET REVENGE ON HIM FOR DUMPING ME!"
*Queen throws Four aside.*
Queen: "...Alright everyone, back to the Delta Quadrant. We'll try again in 300 years."
MagoMidPo@reddit
RIP Hawk.